Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#151
Northztorm wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:31 pm
I am also quite interested in knowing more about proc changes and what it will entail. I myself am going to make a stealther template but have doubts whether to wait or not. : :? so when can we expect to hear more about it ??
I'd wait until something is announced, they're looking into the concerns everyone had regarding the galla/sidi/tg procs being way to strong put on every piece or armor/weapons. And the imbalance of alb getting a 200 50% ablative compared to hib/mid getting only 150 from the player crafted. Among other concerns, those are the big ones imo. I think Alb has like a higher haste proc then the other realms as well. It's fine how it is because the armor the ablative is on is niche and you'd have to temp in that weapon or be weaponless. But once you can put it on every piece, zero balance.

Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#152
romulus wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:25 pm
Hi!
With the mobs and NPCs now on a higher damage table, I notice that my cabbie pet gets hit a lot harder than it used to. Just testing on Orc Coast Guards, singles used to hit my pet for around 49-59 per swing, and now are hitting for 79 per swing. Is this nerf of cab pets intended? Does this nerf extend to other pet classes as well? Does it affect charmed pets, or just summoned pets?

Thanks!
Just guessing by inference, but yes, i think petpull was nerfed as a result.
1) There wasn't any change on dmg table of players.
2) If HP of NPC has raised, that becomes a relative nerf to dmg of players.
3) In conclusion, I guess NPC's HP must be just as same as before update.

So Mobs hit harder + your pet HP hasn't changed -> your pet will die faster -> pet pull nerf :P
I strongly guess your pet will hit mobs harder, too, thou, but that's won't help pet pull much XD

Think this is interesting point thou.
I'm guessing pets will kill each others faster now on pet vs pet.

Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#153
Freedomcall wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:14 pm
romulus wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:25 pm
Hi!
With the mobs and NPCs now on a higher damage table, I notice that my cabbie pet gets hit a lot harder than it used to. Just testing on Orc Coast Guards, singles used to hit my pet for around 49-59 per swing, and now are hitting for 79 per swing. Is this nerf of cab pets intended? Does this nerf extend to other pet classes as well? Does it affect charmed pets, or just summoned pets?

Thanks!
Just guessing by inference, but yes, i think petpull was nerfed as a result.
1) There wasn't any change on dmg table of players.
2) If HP of NPC has raised, that becomes a relative nerf to dmg of players.
3) In conclusion, I guess NPC's HP must be just as same as before update.

So Mobs hit harder + your pet HP hasn't changed -> your pet will die faster -> pet pull nerf :P
I strongly guess your pet will hit mobs harder, too, thou, but that's won't help pet pull much XD

Think this is interesting point thou.
I'm guessing pets will kill each others faster now on pet vs pet.
It’s just a compounded leveling nerf

Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#154
The XP turn-in is still significantly worse even after the change to "increase XP from drop items" that was put in on Saturday. in addition, the drop rate also remains lower than before the changes were applied.

As an example,
At Level 30, I turned in 10 Faerie Frog Eyes and I received 2.27 bubs of XP. At that level, the XP would have been close to 3 times that amount. In addition, it took killing 60+ frogs to get the 10 eyes.

Please turn the XP changes back to the way it was. These changes will keep people from creating alts, and will deter new people from joining the game. One of the hugse attractions of this game over the other versions was that we could level faster and get to end-game PvP. Now, the grind is painful, and will drive server numbers down. The intent of increasing the number of XP items that can be turned in was expected to reduce leveling time. However, it results in the opposite (not to mention the impact of the mob type bonus changes).

Unfortunately, the impact of these changes and the other proposed changes will simply benefit hard-core players who play 40-50 hours a week, and increase the imbalance to those who simply don't have that amount of time to spend on the game. That's fine, if that is the intent. However, the result will be a much smaller subset of players and a lack of any significant new players to offset those who leave.

Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#155
Toobad wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:30 pm
The XP turn-in is still significantly worse even after the change to "increase XP from drop items" that was put in on Saturday. in addition, the drop rate also remains lower than before the changes were applied.

As an example,
At Level 30, I turned in 10 Faerie Frog Eyes and I received 2.27 bubs of XP. At that level, the XP would have been close to 3 times that amount. In addition, it took killing 60+ frogs to get the 10 eyes.

Please turn the XP changes back to the way it was. These changes will keep people from creating alts, and will deter new people from joining the game. One of the hugse attractions of this game over the other versions was that we could level faster and get to end-game PvP. Now, the grind is painful, and will drive server numbers down. The intent of increasing the number of XP items that can be turned in was expected to reduce leveling time. However, it results in the opposite (not to mention the impact of the mob type bonus changes).

Unfortunately, the impact of these changes and the other proposed changes will simply benefit hard-core players who play 40-50 hours a week, and increase the imbalance to those who simply don't have that amount of time to spend on the game. That's fine, if that is the intent. However, the result will be a much smaller subset of players and a lack of any significant new players to offset those who leave.

YES YES YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a great job of summing up the disaster this last set of xp changes was, pretty much wiping out solo leveling and alt-making.

As he said, please turn the XP changes back to the way it was !!!!!
Never ask permission when you can beg forgiveness later.

Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#156
Well, this may well further alienate me from further parts of the community, but I am sticking up for the Devs and some of the changes.

Friday, being day 1 of the patch, was a bit of a mess, but that the same in pretty much every online persistent game Ive ever played, and as someone else said, playing on patch day is pretty much for the masochist, but the Devs spotted some of the issues and patched after about 12-16 hours or something and the majorly broken things were once again manageable again. Saturday was much better, but with saturday came the resetting of the "Dynamic Mob bonuses" which basically reset all xp bonuses on mobs to zero with a few starting bonuses. Hopefully over time these will again morph into bonuses where each realm will once again find its rhythm on where the top xp spots are

We are in a slightly new pve meta, and we just need to learn to adapt rather than cry and scream for a reversion. Obviously there are some valid points being made by some players with very valid arguments but those points are getting lost in the generic whineage

Lets start with tasks and task tokens.

Using a generic set of numbers, most of this patch change seems to be about unifying all xp token items and transferable xp to be centred around a single unit of measurement for each level, the yellow mob xp value. So mob dropped xp items are rated to this, as are the new task tokens. And now since the task token is effectively a transferrable XP item, you are generally better off than you were pre-patch. From my experiences, you now get just under half the task xp instantly that you used to, and this makes it feel like you are levelling slower, but on my level 43 currently levelling toon, I was getting about 40% xp per task instantly + a task token. If I hand this task token in immediately, then it gives me another 40% and then another 40% for completing level 1 of the turning in task tokens task. So based on a single task, I am in credit compared to pre-patch, if I complete 6 tasks (without gaining a level) then even with the diminishing returns on the task token hand in task, then I am at 6*40 + 6*40 + 3*40 which is a break even point compared to the old system ASSUMING I havent gained a level during this time.

If you have gained a level between gaining the token and handing it in, then you are in massive credit. Now that the value of a yellow mob is a standard measurement, and a yellow mob of level X+1 is greater than the value of a yellow mob at level X, then handing in your task token after gaining a level gains you the difference in these two values multiplied by your level. So you have a thing in your inventory which supplies you 40% of a task credit regardless of what level you gained it. An item worth maybe 4400 xp to a level 11 or 5,550,000,000 on a level 49 (random numbers for effect)

So for me, tasks as a separate entity which is an xp bonus, is better than before

Social bonuses. Well, they were useless before, they are useless now. Until the bonuses become significant then it will stay irrelevant. Something like a bonus of 500%- number of different characters of that class played in a given week * a class specific multiplier, so a warden might get a multiplier of 1 and if 40 different wardens were played in a week, then wardens get an xp bonus of 460%, animists might get a multiplier of 5 so if more than 100 animists play in a given week then animists could bring a negative xp to a group (just being radical to make the point, not a completely serious suggestion)

Collection task item changes. Definitely less enthused with these changes, but with a few GM tweaks it could be moved back into satisfactory status, so will see where it goes. It seems weird to me that complaining about something that is free xp, when it changes to something that is slightly less free xp per item but infinite free xp in potential seems like a nerf, but it is the people who solo, or are new to each realm who take a massive battering from this change, so I am sort of on their side in this. Before patch, a solo player could level pretty fast by farming 10 items, handing them in, and this would get you to level 35 pretty easily and even 35-50 fairly easily and along the way they would usually generate a few spares to use on an alt or to sell on CMs, and CM prices were fairly low 100-200 gold for a stack of 10 so there was a cheap way of getting your free xp off there as well. Now with the infinite limit, CMs will empty of spare xp items pretty quickly and it becomes a sellers market, very unfriendly to the solo/new player as the prices will escalate. You may also get the situation where every xp item camp is camped by animists (using hib as example) such that the solo player can no longer farm items without an argument with an ani (shuddering memories of artefact camping in toa).

Every part of this change seems wrong to me, inifinite hand ins lowers availability = higher prices, lower value per hand in means more are needed making the prices rise, and lower drop rates makes them less available so the prices rise, if as an animist I can now only farm 40 per hour, then a stack of 10 is going to be on merchants for about 1p, which helps no one.

One of the changes on this needs reversing, either a new higher limit at say 25 or 40, but an actual limit per xp item, OR the drop rate needs to be dramatically increased so they drop every mob, such that demand can be more easily met.

What I have sort of felt since starting phoenix was that this is that xp collection tasks/items are sort of introducing WOW clone-esque quests into DaoC. Its just odd that even the original daoc had them as quests and yet on phoenix they are coded in some sort of more complicated manner, presumably to stop people getting big rewards from them as quests by being able to do all 4 level 40-44 quests at once, but frankly, I dont think anyone cares any more, just let each kill task item set be a unique set of 10 as a one time hand in with its level restrictions as current with a rewards of X times yellow mob xp for a yellow mob at the lowest level of available completion, and let us hand in more than one type per level if we so choose.

Mob type xp bonuses. Well, setting 90% of these to zero on a saturday when it is primetime play and most of your population is going to be on, ouch, not a good publicity stunt Im afraid. A resetting of the mob type bonuses probably was needed to properly make them dynamic as they had stagnated somewhat and made certain spots very popular making the whole thing static rather than dynamic. So now you have effectively stuffed the group xping players as suddenly the group xp experience has now been completely reduced to Uthgard levels. I sort of understand what I think you are trying to do with this, but eek at your instantaneous implementation. I assume if this is going to be really dynamic then you are collecting statistics on the mob kills etc from which to generate the bonuses, so perhaps a weeks worth of data needed to be stored and looked at and implemented based on that data rather than a reset to zero. I appreciate your attempts to make the world a more dynamic place for xp bonuses, hopefully it will settle down to a more appreciated status over a few short days.

As for the future stuff, I am against the proc changes and the only justification I can see for these changes would be if you are also going to introduce more craftable procs (snares for example) and this is going to be your method to allow people to re-proc armour and therefore not require full retemplating. Even so, if this were the case, it feels like a very very clunky way of doing this. And as a specific point on dislike, if we can extract epic vest procs, then each realms epic vests should cost the same feathers and each realms available procs have to be equalised, but even then I think my reaction to the proc changes would be a hard no.

Apologies to any readers for the excessive wall of text and gold stars to anyone who made it to the end without hating me:)

Wyst
Altaholic
6 anis, 2bm, 3 eld 2 chanter 1 of everything else at least on hib all templated, none of any rvr noteworthiness

Some mids, some templated, ongoing

no filthy albs worthy of mention yet

Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#157
Hello community,

I'm surprised there are not more posts about those fail changes...on melees, hybrids, and stuff...(HP buff, resistful etc) Without even considering the piercing implementation and the power balance patch...who both came way before that hp buff on live server. Something's wrong there.

I mean, to be clear, as an example :

Yesterday you kill a 6L+ BM who slams you, by using purge, pets snaring, 4 lifetaps and 5 casts, ending with 30-40%hp (on a 9L+ BD) Close fight.

Today, you wake up and hit the same target. You have inc on him. Pets disease and snare. You hit 11 casts for 200-250 and 5 lifetaps for 150-200. BM uses pots, heart of legion, and IP in the end. (after 3-4 more nukes) You run out of power. BM runs away and....you have not hastener speed anymore and are out of power...you run away too... BM Did not even hit you once !

Means you cant win a 1v1 on an hybrid (aye BM is considered hybrid) as a 9L+ BD ?

Not complaining at all about BD, or casters, or whatever. Just sayin this HP buff for no reason (indeed, none cried for it, but i guess some GM's might be playing mid melee right now, am i wrong ? :p) is totally unbalanced. And you obscured piercing patch and power percentage balance before going for it.
I'm sorry but that whole sh it makes no sense.

Your server, your rules i guess. But that will be without me that way.
Thanks for the good job till here, this one is a fail though. I sent every of you GM's about that before, only Clockwork answered me. Guess i got my answer.
See you around take care
Last edited by Slash on Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#158
vilcleft wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:28 pm
[...]
Could you elaborate on the task completion Tokens?
You mention that turning in such a token gives you XP AND counts for the token-turn-in-task?

Are you Sure? When i tried it i thought i only got XP for completion of the task (aka the one following fibonaci) and not for each individual token. But i was pretty tried and distracted.

I have to test the new system more before my final verdict. It is hard to gauge overall effectiveness of all Boni and what happens when the Tokens Start becoming cheap. But so far it doesnt feel good. Collection items got destroyed and if i "explore" and find a good camp, then i am forced to grind it out the same day. But when i play for 1hour and search a spot for 30mins thats fucked up. Before i would log there then, but now a spot wont be good anymore when i log in a few Days later

Thats really my biggest gripe regarding the XP system. Some changes seem to be helping the slow-leveller (new tokens tradeable and resetting daily) but others seem to punish the casual again.
It all feels so weird and unwarranted. Even if it is still ok, the question remains as to why?

Re: November 2019: XP, QoL and Balance Changes

#159
The biggest issue the server has currently is that coastguarding is a rewarded playstyle. leading to roaming being so choked to certain areas that it just ends up in a cluster**** every time peoples timers come up.

It was a problem before but now with the increased health pools, all that is really happening is that a fight is able to last longer and then more likely be ruined/leeched/ganked/zerged (pick your favourite). So has just made the problem worse.

Normally a big fan of the experiments and trials, this ones a definite no in its current state, the thought to balance out the caster meta, great, the end result, not tthere yet.

On top of this, ann incentive to roam/leave keeps is needed to get smallmans/solos/groups roaming instead of coastguarding. I realise not ALL groups do it, but damned if it isnt the vast majority.

something like a foraging task or zone control/zone bonus/malus to take people to different areas, or reward 'controlled exploration' lets call it.
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