Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

opossum12 wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:05 PM
I don't understand why we keep seeing alb changes but leaving the theurgist untouched.

On Live, theurgists were banned from drafts, because of how broken the class is.

Back a couple years ago, the Origins project wanted to delete theurgists from the game, acknoledging that the class is broken.

You can deal with a theurgist by playing well. You can shut him down and kill his pets quick. If you look at the theurgist alone, ok he's manageable.

The issue is when you misplay a little bit and let a theurgist free, you are completely overwhelmed in a matter of seconds and it's a huge uphill battle following that. Alb never really has these uphill battles to fight through. You see an animist putting out tanglers? Just pull out of range. You see a BD, just drop the commander in 3 nukes. You get overwhelmed by tanks on inc? Sorry but you need to pan and/or run 2 peelers.

The next alb change should 100% be aimed at the theurg.

1. Pet cast time is a fixed 3 sec cast time (animist, hib's pet spam class, has a 5 sec fixed cast time, seems a reasonable nerf)
2. Pet cast range is 1750, from 2000 (need to bring the theurg in somewhat of a danger zone to csdt his pets, even more since the bard amnesia range nerf)

It's all Alb grouos now, and fighting theurg alb groups as a hib caster is just tiresome, not even fun.

i was always wondering in the early days (of phoenix) why there were so few theurgs...and now suddenly i hear a lot that they are too OP. What changed? Or why was this not discorverd/abused earlier? Or is it maybe not as wild as it can sometimes seem?

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

Theur arent really an issue is why, the current issue with alb tanker grp is more to do with the fact caster dmg is too low so sorc theur tank grps are more common. For alb 2sorc 2cab was more common. Don't think any big nerf needs to happen to theur personally

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

Ele wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:43 PM
I understand the need of changes to the 5 body nuker setup, but is it really necessary to apply a handicap to all other alb setups that include body nukers when compared to caster groups in other realms?

I think Alb caster with peeler, Theu, 2xSorc und Caba is in a good spot but not OP.
As Ele said the 5 body caster setup with moc needs to be nerved.
Ideas are:
- nerving LT when MOCing
- and/or reduce LT-Value with the amount body nukers in the group
- and/or Scale red Debuff with body nukers in Grp: 50% for 2 down to 40% at 5

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

Freedomcall wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:27 PM
Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

Well mid is different, since your aug has the quick cure NS and you run three support.

Since the hib caster meta is getting shifted from Heat train to Energy train, do you look at how you spec the shaman and start dropping the 46 aug 27 cave rest mend spec and go closer to a 42 (or 40) Aug, 33 mend low cave spec and act as a third heal/rupt?

Do you need that red heat resist if your only significant threat was hib caster, which is currently complete garbage?

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

Norad wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:14 PM
Theur arent really an issue is why, the current issue with alb tanker grp is more to do with the fact caster dmg is too low so sorc theur tank grps are more common. For alb 2sorc 2cab was more common. Don't think any big nerf needs to happen to theur personally

I don't know, the theurgist is a weird spot. I'm not saying with a theurgist an alb group is invincible. What I meant is against lesser groups, that class can ruin their life in 5 seconds.

Would an alb tanker be as strong as it is against all other comps if you didn't run the theurgist (not considering the effect of pbt, haste buff and haste debuff)?

Watching Inter's stream during the arena event (where their alb theurg tanker lost once to an alb caster), on inc, the first question was "is it a caster or tank comp?" and the second one was "do they have a theurg?". I mean they aren't asking if they run 2 casbs, they specifically ask if they run a theurg.

Not sure how running a 4 caster train is an argument that the theurgist isn't a bit too strong. Since the debuff nerf, you can't effectively blap someone unless the supports are completely shut down, and right now that's where alb gets a considerable edge on the other realms. Combine that with the melee damage nerf + HP buff, you can't one round theurgists like in beta/early launch of phx. The theurg isn't an issue when he's spending 50% of the fight kissing the ground.

So instead of making 5,000 other changes to the friar and paladin and all the other classes, just look at the the theurg, make simple nerfs (longer pet cast time and reduce range) and you'll allow hib and mid setups to be way more forgiving to play against a theurg alb group.

Just my opinion.

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

Morann wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:21 PM
Ele wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:43 PM
I understand the need of changes to the 5 body nuker setup, but is it really necessary to apply a handicap to all other alb setups that include body nukers when compared to caster groups in other realms?

I think Alb caster with peeler, Theu, 2xSorc und Caba is in a good spot but not OP.
As Ele said the 5 body caster setup with moc needs to be nerved. Ideas are nerving LT when MOCing or reduce LT-Value with the amount body nukers in the group.

I observed that lifetap being critical damage also increases the health return.
What about removing critical amount from health return, so that you aren't healed more if it crits?
It can also affect other LTs such as SM's but I think it could be one of the options because
1. Albs have by far the largest amount of LT casters in caster group
2. It will affect rather higher RRs who specced into higher WP(that are the real issues), and affect less on low RRs.

What do you think?

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

opossum12 wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:05 PM
I don't understand why we keep seeing alb changes but leaving the theurgist untouched.

On Live, theurgists were banned from drafts, because of how broken the class is.

Back a couple years ago, the Origins project wanted to delete theurgists from the game, acknoledging that the class is broken.

You can deal with a theurgist by playing well. You can shut him down and kill his pets quick. If you look at the theurgist alone, ok he's manageable.

The issue is when you misplay a little bit and let a theurgist free, you are completely overwhelmed in a matter of seconds and it's a huge uphill battle following that. Alb never really has these uphill battles to fight through. You see an animist putting out tanglers? Just pull out of range. You see a BD, just drop the commander in 3 nukes. You get overwhelmed by tanks on inc? Sorry but you need to pan and/or run 2 peelers.

The next alb change should 100% be aimed at the theurg.

1. Pet cast time is a fixed 3 sec cast time (animist, hib's pet spam class, has a 5 sec fixed cast time, seems a reasonable nerf)
2. Pet cast range is 1750, from 2000 (need to bring the theurg in somewhat of a danger zone to csdt his pets, even more since the bard amnesia range nerf)

It's all Alb grouos now, and fighting theurg alb groups as a hib caster is just tiresome, not even fun.

Live drafts? Interesting.

You can't just nerf classes to fit your own narrative because you cannot compete vs the player. Theurgist is fine.

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

opossum12 wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:36 PM
Freedomcall wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:27 PM
Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

Well mid is different, since your aug has the quick cure NS and you run three support.

Since the hib caster meta is getting shifted from Heat train to Energy train, do you look at how you spec the shaman and start dropping the 46 aug 27 cave rest mend spec and go closer to a 42 (or 40) Aug, 33 mend low cave spec and act as a third heal/rupt?

Do you need that red heat resist if your only significant threat was hib caster, which is currently complete garbage?

All realms are different i agree...why all realms but midgard need secondary healers that can replace second mainhealer though seems disingenious. I don't think shaman needs similar buffs, but i also don't think other realms need to run without 2mainhealers.
Wardens are strong and viable, yet there are constant claims how boring they are...how is their job boring but a shamans isn't?

Re: 2021 Balance Changes #3

Sepplord wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:08 PM
Can someone explain what the combat timer refresh on pets means?

Does it mean a CCed pet keeps their owner in combat all the time (instead of only ticking them into combat at the end of the CC)?
Or does it mean that pets themselves don't go out of combat while for example snared, and get speed on themselves?

Or something else?
Previously, rooted and snared pets would run at 100% speed as soon as they spent a few seconds on passive even though the CC was still up. Putting them back into combat restored the slow so refreshing their combat timer should prevent the speed decreases from being nullified