Re: Style Changes

Roto23 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:30 PM
what does this mean....
Damage at 44
Damage at 65
Damage at 74

Does the 44,65,74 represent composite weapon skill?
that's the damage the style will do with composite spec, level 74 is RR 14+11 on gear and 50 specced pts

Re: Style Changes

I personally would like to see some style changes but adopt to live styles is probably not the correct way.
I never played live so I can't really say how those styles will really affect the playstyles but from what I read there few styles which could cause trouble.
Regarding to balancing afterwards it might come that people will complain about classes which are OP or have too OP styles.

Adopting live styles is possibly easier than change the current styles to be more viable but in fact people expected that missing snares were added and chain styles will be reduced so it won't be too hard to get them out.

Maybe it won't be as bad as some of us think but it is a big change and it could cause that people have to redo their templates because the best weaponstyles shifted.
It would have been nice if you announced it as a test so people could vote again afterwards.

Re: Style Changes

Wow ... just ...

So I usually stay out of all issues in the forum because I don't like the tone and the culture of discussion. However, this is really so bad that I would like to say something. I haven't read every single change. I felt sick enough after reading the changes to my class ...

I really appreciate the server and the work you are doing on it and, like many others, I have probably spent hundreds of hours on the server. That is exactly where I see the problem. You call the whole thing style changes…. But that's not it anymore. When I first read about Stylechanges, I thought it was going to be just that. They sure change the growth rate of a few styles. Maybe they weaken a few outliners and strengthen a few things that are rarely used. That'll be cool for sure.

Now the changes are here and it is ... that what you are selling here as a style change is a complete change to every melee and hybrid class. Melee and hybrid classes are almost completely defined by their style lines. Many of us have put hundreds (if not thousands) of hours into character and development to play a class we love. But now you're changing the whole class concept. This is just utter shit. I can't think of a more polite way of saying it. With these changes, you're taking away the classes we've been working on and replacing them with something we probably won't like. So everything we have invested is simply negated. I think that's wrong.

I mean ... I'll take my class as an example now. I play hero as a counter class solo. I love the reactive styles that build on the opponent's parry and block. You have removed these styles completely and without replacement. These are normal After Parry styles now. The whole LW line is now a normal, boring weapon line with no unique selling points. The part why I played the class is gone. So why should I still want to play this?

And that is also the case with other classes ... The Polearmsman loses his Anytime Snare ... Garotte no longer snares ... All double weapon lines are basically the same ... This is not a change! You're selling us a completely different game in a forum post! You just take our game and the characters we have created away from us! That is intolerable! This is no longer Daoc ... the style changes on the live server were lousy ... but this is even worse. This based on a survey with a question that did not suggest any kind of changes of this size is gross deception! It's just unbelievable what you are planning here.

I'm sorry ... I'm really angry and I quickly forget myself. I don't want to offend anyone here. I just find the changes totally rash and unfair.

But to cut a long story short: I don't know what about others, but I am just not sure if i want to play this... Who will tell me if I choose a different class or another weaponline now and invest hundreds of hours again that you won't take it away from me again? It's too risky for me.

And the simple ability to respec is a lousy refund... who will pay for a new template to test other weaponlines? who will go featherfarming to buy new weapons? who will do that again when you destroy the next weaponline in a few month?

My English is not the best i hope my points got clear anyways.
Shalelu | Heroine

Re: Style Changes

Lerox wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:36 PM
I personally would like to see some style changes but adopt to live styles is probably not the correct way.
I never played live so I can't really say how those styles will really affect the playstyles but from what I read there few styles which could cause trouble.
Regarding to balancing afterwards it might come that people will complain about classes which are OP or have too OP styles.

Adopting live styles is possibly easier than change the current styles to be more viable but in fact people expected that missing snares were added and chain styles will be reduced so it won't be too hard to get them out.

Maybe it won't be as bad as some of us think but it is a big change and it could cause that people have to redo their templates because the best weaponstyles shifted.
It would have been nice if you announced it as a test so people could vote again afterwards.
Turn all gear player made with +weapon x to
+all weapons

Re: Style Changes

In the opening of this post you say the VOTE is in. What people filled out was a survey. I doubt they realized they were VOTING for massive changes in how they play their character. Where is the actual VOTE for this proposed change? I'm not much in the mood to remap my quick bars for a "Hey, let's try this!" approach only to have to remap again later. Positional styles and snares? I don't recall that option on the survey ... oh I'm sorry VOTE.

Re: Style Changes

labra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:33 PM
Roto23 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:30 PM
what does this mean....
Damage at 44
Damage at 65
Damage at 74

Does the 44,65,74 represent composite weapon skill?
that's the damage the style will do with composite spec, level 74 is RR 14+11 on gear and 50 specced pts

Thanks, the changes still suck though

Re: Style Changes

Let's see how thing turn out

Devs might change their mind, or adjust some styles.

I'm still and will remain in favor of a large style change on actual classes because I want more diversity.

If the style change remain this way, I'll adjust and find way to enjoy my timeplay.

But I still suggest getting a style revamp for a more classic-era timeplay (1.93 patch)

Re: Style Changes

i dont know why ppl think there is no diversity .... in fact there is no class that has the same styles as another class..... there are similarities but hey there were some before too
Horg solo Hunter Einherjar Lone Enforcer
Keriala solo rr6 Ranger
Eik solo rr6 Shadowblade
Ean solo rr4 Paladin

Re: Style Changes

Tamy wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:39 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:29 PM
With the vote clearly in favor of making the weapon lines usable quite a few changes would be required, there were basically two choices
1) Go from the current 1.65 styles and add the required elements to each line as needed
2) Take a more recent set of styles as the starting point where those changes have already been done

We now went with the second option for a couple reasons
1) The common sense / required changes to make each weapon line at least somewhat viable (meaning a side or rear snare in 8v8 for example) are already in
2) Some new toys that make stuff a bit more interesting
3) Chains have already been reduced to usually 2 with a handful 3 part chains
4) Icons / requirements indicator will match the style again

Timeline
The update is planned for Monday.
/respec all will become free for a while
The char planner has already been updated to reflect the new styles, please note that this is still a work in progress and it may contain some weirdness or not reflect some changes.
There will be a couple issues regarding effects and especially tooltips, those should be resolved rather quickly for the most part though. Please note that due to a technical limitation styles that have more than one effect will only show one and it'll be random (determined at server start) which one will show, it will take a while to resolve the technical limitation here. In total this should affect only about 20ish styles (out of about 1300). The char planner will always show all effects.

As for the new toys, there were a total of 6 new concepts, one of them was discarded for a simpler implementation:
The discarded one first: your damage dealt against this target is increased by x will be a your damage is increased by x, this was at most 5% and for a simpler implementation this will become a simple self melee dps buff (like svg dps self buff)

Damage reflect: Will reduce the damage by the listed % and reflect that amount back at the attacker, your damage taken message will include the damage before the reduction by reflection. Example with 100 damage attack and 25% reflect: You are hit by xy for 100 damage! You reflect 25 damage back at xy!
The actual / only usage here is in a skald hammer style with a 5 second 25% damage reflect for the group.

Melee crit chance buff: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is a 25% crit group buff for 5 seconds in the same hammer style that also has the damage reflect.

Armor effectiveness debuff: Acts similar to an af debuff, actual usage is at most 5% which thanks to variance makes this not noticable.

Heal effectiveness buff / debuff: Should be rather self explanatory, actual usage is a warden style with a 50% heal effectiveness buff and a target 50% heal effectiveness debuff as follow up.

Effect Removal: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is for a specific warden style combo where one style does low damage but debuffs the target and another style does very high damage but removes this debuff from the target with the opener for both giving you a weapon skill buff which is also removed by this style.

Changes
Changes to the new styles
Aside from omitting the shield line there were only 2 changes done to the styles so far:
The ranger frontal root style in cd is only a 40% snare
Stealth opener had their scaling slightly reduced to account for con debuff hitting before it, the scaling is still higher than what it is currently

Changes to existing styles:
The Scout only shield style Stop! has been reduced from 14 seconds to 10

Changes to damage tables:
Thane sword and axe have been raised from 18 to 19 to match hammer, this is the only case where a class had different damage table values for their lines.

Future Changes
Just like with NF RAs, this now represents a starting point for further adjustments.
The biggest candidate here is the warden 50% abs debuff and the warden 50% heal effectiveness debuff, aside from those two all effects are rather minor and/or very short in duration. Also please welcome our new scythe wielding overlords https://www.ignboards.com/threads/grasping-roots.250248012/
The damage delves, especially for the vw side follow up, will also be monitored closely.

A couple important points:
With the new styles pretty much all melee snares are now only 40% instead of 60% and pretty much all anytime snares have been removed.
Asp no longer has an increased melee range, it's now a normal anytimer detaunt.
All styles now use the "correct" style damage formula as we have the required values for the new styles, that means you will no longer see the growth rate. In order to make comparing the different styles easier, the char builder will include spec 65 and spec 74 as reference points, e. g. if one styles shows a 222 at spec 74 and another shows 350 then the 350 one does more damage.

Yeah, thanks for making my flex line clearly more usuable and eliminating a unique feature while giving me another completely useless detaunt (we still have one btw). The only thing that comes to my mind with all the recent changes is /ponder and /shrug.

its a joke misleading and i feel robbed of a year of my life

Re: Style Changes

Roto23 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:30 PM
what does this mean....
Damage at 44
Damage at 65
Damage at 74

Does the 44,65,74 represent composite weapon skill?

The new formula is the following

wrote: STYLE_DAMAGE = (STYLE_BASE + (SPEC - STYLE_LEVEL) * STYLE_GROWTH)
* SWING_SPEED
* DAMAGE_MODIFIER / 10
+ BASE_DAMAGE * TOA_STYLE_BONUS

So if we take now double frost as example:

wrote: Doublefrost
Level 34
Damage per Level 2
Damage at 34 - 70
Damage at 65 - 132
Damage at 74 - 150

You now can use the values of the last to fill the formula, here "Level 34" = STYLE_LEVEL, "Damage per Level 2" = STYLE_GROWTH and the first Damage at, in this case "Damage at 34 - 70" is STYLE_BASE

Spec is the values in the table 34, 65, 74

makes:
(70 + (34 - 34) * 2) = 70
(70 + (65 - 34) * 2) = 132
(70 + (74 - 34) * 2) = 150

You basically modify this with your effective swingspeed (after quickness, haste, celerity has modified it) and the damage modifier (between 0-3, this is also were the variance comes in).

So for a fictional example with a RR5 Zerker we can use now a mainhand swingspeed of 2.5 seconds, and a damage modifier of 2 then we would get:

(70 + (65-34) *2) * 2.5 * 2 / 10 = 66

So 66 is your style bonus damage you get. To this we have to add the unstyled mainhand damage, which should be around 140ish with a 4.1 weapon and this modifier, makes a total style damage of 206.

Hope that explains it a bit.



---

PS:
Haven't went over many styles yet, but in general it seems anytimers lose around 5% damage in average and side/back get 2-3% added..