Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#71
Centenario wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:10 pm
Minstrel changes:
- Minstrel can charm red pet (max) if composite music is high enough
- Minstrel charmed pet have 50% Stoicism and abandoning pet doesnt remove CC
- Minstrel charm is similar to sorc charm, but its a cast similar to necro.
- Minstrel get 2x spec points instead of 1.5
- Minstrel get access to Shield line (prot/guard/intercept) (but can only use small shields)
- Minstrel stun is changed to 2300 range Amnesia instant with 10sec CD

Possible Spec:
- 29 Stealth
- 29 Slash
- 42 Shield
- 50 Music

Becomes Off-tank like savage and gets access to det.

I can make another proposal more towards skald-type of minstrel:
Give minstrel the spec line: Two-Handed and give him enough points to go 43 music, 50 two-handed 30 stealth and 30 weapon.
I could see 75% stoicism on the pet being a viable third option to the other two ideas I suggested. To be clear, in this instance, uncharming the pet would need to clear the aggro table, therefore it could not be used to automatically break one's own (or teammates) mezz & roots. And furthermore, in this vein, dropping the pet would not clear the pet's CC either as this would be redundant with the 75% stoicism.

The other ideas are frankly outlandish. They drastically change the minstrel to be unrecognizable, and introduce further balance issues.

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#72
Isavyr wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:17 pm
Caemma thanks for adding in. Agree with your points.
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:52 pm
Never said it was "that simple" - it's just doable.
It's also beside the point--it's imbalanced, which you don't acknowledge. It requires far more skill on the enemy and an absurdly high coordination to accomplish it (and this singular "counter" is in turn countered by purge). It's far easier to kill the pet, which is the go-to tactic. It demonstrates how broken this behavior is when the go-to tactic is to kill it. This demonstrates that there is no counter to the pet.

Again, a 35 kg weight is heavier than 25 kg weight. Even if you can lift both, the 35 kg weight is heavier, no?

Nauglamir wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:52 pm
I'm playing against Mentalists, they are the same. Maybe worse, cause they have a way easier job overall.
I've yet to see one person complain about mentalists. I don't mean to offend you but this clearly shows that you're really out of touch with both the community and the difference between the two classes.

The pet is more complementary with the minstrel, which plays enemy's backline and serves as both a rupter and DPS. Clothy mentalist serve as a DPS and don't play in the enemy's backline, limiting their effectiveness of the pet exploits. It's significantly easier to counter the mentalist than the minstrel because of their position and role.
Mentalist is an unccable demezzer with tremendous castspeed that can piggy purge root from a safe position and total overview over the battlefield. Them being less effective on their "pet exploit" is just not right. They just don't create that much anger as Minstrels solo a lot and a few good ones kill a lot, which leads to a lot of crying. People lost against Minstrels, they need to be nerfed. In smallmen, 8vs8 and zerg environment, Menta can "pet exploit" as good or better, I'm pretty sure about.
And your weight allegory just makes no sense. I'd think about dropping it, it's no as good as you think it is ^^

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#73
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:33 pm
Mentalist is an unccable demezzer with tremendous castspeed that can piggy purge root from a safe position and total overview over the battlefield. Them being less effective on their "pet exploit" is just not right. They just don't create that much anger as Minstrels solo a lot and a few good ones kill a lot, which leads to a lot of crying. People lost against Minstrels, they need to be nerfed. In smallmen,
And your weight allegory just makes no sense. I'd think about dropping it, it's no as good as you think it is ^^
Again, no talk about balance in your post--maybe that's why the weight allegory does not make sense to you. The 35 kg weight is the minstrel--it's significant heavier than the other. You may be able to lift both, but we're not primarily discussing whether you can lift it (CC it), but whether it's balanced. Maybe it should be 25 kg and 100 kg weight to make sense since you focus on the CC aspect. In this instance, you can probably lift the 100 kg weight--if you prepare and get in the right position and lift correctly. But it's obviously not balanced and the lifting isn't easily or quickly accomplished by most people anyway.

Also, you made some incorrect assumptions. Both myself and (I believe Caemma) are 8v8 player. Furthermore, I both have a minstrel and play with/against them.
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:33 pm
Menta can "pet exploit" as good or better, I'm pretty sure about.
No. The fetch time on a mentalist to get de-rooted/mezzed by pet is significant. The pet has to wander across the entire battlefield, unless he keeps pet to himself, in which case it's not interrupting the enemy. The minstrel plays a forward position, so he gets to do both--keep pet on players to disrupt/damage them, and be close enough to pet to self-remove CC. In short, he brings a disproportionate amount of rupting (and incidental damage) without reasonable counters.

At any rate, the charm mechanic needs to be reworked, which pertains to both classes, so unless you can comment on balance, this discussion won't be fruitful.

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#74
* Raise resist rates on pet charm so pet has more chance to break out of charm (it was like this on live)
* Halve the damage table, and lower hit points of the charmed pet. Ellyl champs hit for 240-260, barguests have ton of hp. Lower these stats when they get charmed.
or.. just make Ellyls and Barguests and other red/purple pets that have massive damage uncharmable. Should be easy. Go through the world build database and check the damage tables. If it's overpowered, nerf the mob or flag the mob as uncharmable.

I don't know what Marc Jacobs was smoking when he came up with the minstrel but it's got too much utility than what it should have.
An 18 year old mistake is still a mistake.

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#75
Siouxsie wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 pm
* Raise resist rates on pet charm so pet has more chance to break out of charm (it was like this on live)
* Halve the damage table, and lower hit points of the charmed pet. Ellyl champs hit for 240-260, barguests have ton of hp. Lower these stats when they get charmed.
or.. just make Ellyls and Barguests and other red/purple pets that have massive damage uncharmable. Should be easy. Go through the world build database and check the damage tables. If it's overpowered, nerf the mob or flag the mob as uncharmable.

I don't know what Marc Jacobs was smoking when he came up with the minstrel but it's got too much utility than what it should have.
An 18 year old mistake is still a mistake.
The pet already gets weakened when charmed, so this isn't an issue of examining the mob damage table so much as tweaking coefficients as necessary. To that end, what is your opinion on how much the should should be weakened when charmed? What is the target HP? What is the target DPS?

Since the minstrel cannot resummon the pet, I personally believe it needs a fairly rugged pet to compensate.

And lastly, I agree with you about class design, but I doubt Marc Jacobs designed every class personally, and anyway, it's the fault of the twisting system which was largely ignored/overlooked by Mythic as a whole. For example, take the paladin. If it was intended to have AF, DA, heal, endo and multiple resist chants up simultaneously, there would be no need for different individual chants. Yet, because they overlooked the idea of twisting (and then it became "part" of the class) there are all sorts of wonky designs; the paladin has power, yet never uses it (when twisting properly). It has the choice between running one chant permanently, yet is expected to run multiple at any given time to play most efficiently. I bring this up because the minstrel is largely the same, but the Paladin is a more obvious example of the failure of Mythic to address the chant/pulse system. Skald and a few other classes share in this nonsense, unfortunately.

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#76
So where are the Skald changes? Determination (not even Live gave them Det because it´s overpowered, they opted for a mere root reduction instead) since day 1, leading the /serverinfo list as most played class on average since day 1. Yet there´s proposed changes to Minstrels and Bards only?

Speed 5/6 classes are essential on a server without speed warp. It´s better that they are popular (even though they can obviously not reach the popularity of Skalds, hint hint) than making people stop playing them because somebody thought it a good idea to nerf what makes them unique and powerful.

I haven´t even mentioned Celerity and higher hitpoints to Mid tank groups yet.

Edit: As of now there are 54 Skalds, 34 Minstrels and 33 Bards online... so what is the purpose of these nerfs?

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#77
Tyrlaan wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 pm
So where are the Skald changes? Determination (not even Live gave them Det because it´s overpowered, they opted for a mere root reduction instead) since day 1, leading the /serverinfo list as most played class on average since day 1. Yet there´s proposed changes to Minstrels and Bards only?

Speed 5/6 classes are essential on a server without speed warp. It´s better that they are popular (even though they can obviously not reach the popularity of Skalds, hint hint) than making people stop playing them because somebody thought it a good idea to nerf what makes them unique and powerful.

I haven´t even mentioned Celerity and higher hitpoints to Mid tank groups yet.

Edit: As of now there are 54 Skalds, 34 Minstrels and 33 Bards online... so what is the purpose of these nerfs?
Are you trying to make the point that Skalds are more OP than Minstrels?

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#78
borodino1812 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:01 am
Tyrlaan wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 pm
So where are the Skald changes? Determination (not even Live gave them Det because it´s overpowered, they opted for a mere root reduction instead) since day 1, leading the /serverinfo list as most played class on average since day 1. Yet there´s proposed changes to Minstrels and Bards only?

Speed 5/6 classes are essential on a server without speed warp. It´s better that they are popular (even though they can obviously not reach the popularity of Skalds, hint hint) than making people stop playing them because somebody thought it a good idea to nerf what makes them unique and powerful.

I haven´t even mentioned Celerity and higher hitpoints to Mid tank groups yet.

Edit: As of now there are 54 Skalds, 34 Minstrels and 33 Bards online... so what is the purpose of these nerfs?
Are you trying to make the point that Skalds are more OP than Minstrels?
Does OP matter if it´s a class that´s not dominating population? And if it was so OP as people claim why isn´t everybody and their brother playing it? Plenty of classes are strong in some context. Others are powerful in many more. We surely don´t need people to stop playing Minstrels or Bards when it´s in fact Skalds who are leading the list of classes most played by a large margin.

Also it seems the stuff the other realms cry most about is getting nerfed. So where´s Skalds, Celerity, BDs, Healers in general on the list of proposed changes QQ 2020?

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#79
Siouxsie wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 pm
* Raise resist rates on pet charm so pet has more chance to break out of charm (it was like this on live)
* Halve the damage table, and lower hit points of the charmed pet. Ellyl champs hit for 240-260, barguests have ton of hp. Lower these stats when they get charmed.
or.. just make Ellyls and Barguests and other red/purple pets that have massive damage uncharmable. Should be easy. Go through the world build database and check the damage tables. If it's overpowered, nerf the mob or flag the mob as uncharmable.

I don't know what Marc Jacobs was smoking when he came up with the minstrel but it's got too much utility than what it should have.
An 18 year old mistake is still a mistake.
Marc Jacobs: okay, we got this game as balanced as it's going to be for a launch. Oooh, I think I'll play a Minstrel......
The Drunken Ranger!-keeping Devs honest since 2012
Also playing a dual-wielding Saracen
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsY42S ... 7koW7oFZug

The Drunken Ranger’s Guide to Drunken Rangery
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewto ... =23&t=2902

Re: [Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

#80
Played Minstrel since game first started. My minst is my most played character on this server. His high level charm was fine on live. On this server minst has got a pile of utility compared to other classes. Ive played against him many times also.

My vote:
Max charm level 55. Having a purple or even red pet when you've got speed, sos, instant stun, 2 instant DD's, and almost uninterruptible single mez, is a bad combination.
Leave rest of the mechanics as is, but make it run along side other chants and make range on charm 1000 units. Make minst have to stay close to pet to keep it charmed.

All of us have seen minst in DF with a purple pet wrecking havoc.