Nerf Minstrel pets

Started 21 Dec 2019
by Siouxsie
in Suggestions
Ellyl Champion hits for 230
Ellyl Sage nukes you with fireball AND heals the damn minstrel.

I had a RR2 minstrel beat me down even after using Purge, IP4, legion, and pots.. and they still didn't die.
This is totally unacceptable. Nerf the minstrel pets so they can't heal for as much or hit as hard. This is completely broken.
Also, if they are in combat they shouldn't be allowed to recast charm.
Mon 23 Dec 2019 1:56 PM by inoeth
send avatar to charmed pet => pet is unable to cast => problem solved
Tue 24 Dec 2019 10:29 PM by Siouxsie
inoeth wrote:
Mon 23 Dec 2019 1:56 PM
send avatar to charmed pet => pet is unable to cast => problem solved

Did that. Minstrel would just stun or mezz pet.. and the mezz seems to last 3 minutes instead of 1.
Tue 24 Dec 2019 10:51 PM by Lillebror
hmm, maybe i should charm the sage instead of these stupid 58+ pets that dosent catch sprinting targets without me playing speed song.
Wed 25 Dec 2019 7:03 AM by teiloh
Siouxsie wrote:
Tue 24 Dec 2019 10:29 PM
the mezz seems to last 3 minutes instead of 1.

Yeah, no.
Wed 25 Dec 2019 11:02 AM by Lerox
Siouxsie wrote:
Sat 21 Dec 2019 8:55 AM
Ellyl Champion hits for 230
Ellyl Sage nukes you with fireball AND heals the damn minstrel.

I had a RR2 minstrel beat me down even after using Purge, IP4, legion, and pots.. and they still didn't die.
This is totally unacceptable. Nerf the minstrel pets so they can't heal for as much or hit as hard. This is completely broken.
Also, if they are in combat they shouldn't be allowed to recast charm.

Just kill the sage and go after the minstrel. The sage heals for 250 HP if I am not forsaken and only starts if the minstrel drops below 50%.
Ellyl Champions hits for 230 but swings with a 2-hand sword so much slower than other pets. Basically same DPS than others but more effective if the enemy trying to get away.

Just try and error and learn how to play against a minstrel. In general minstrel is a really hard enemy especially if they do the kite and dd game but they are beatable.
And be aware this server is by far not customized for solo play so every "fix"/change/etc which would benefit you to beat minstrel more likely in solo might gimp the class for other people who play smallman/group.

Of course I am a supporter of the minstrel so I won't say any negative about it and I am glad that we got buffs and nerfs in the past but please let us some small things to still enjoy that class, thanks.

Merry Christmas!
Wed 25 Dec 2019 12:44 PM by Loki
It's an overpowered class with no risk and high reward, an average player can make it work easily due to the large toolkit. Which is why uppland is swarming with rr3 to rr9 minsts. A lot of stuff is wrong about pets and minstrels know it, thats why "they wont say anything negative" about it. There's changes to be made that do not affect small man/8v8, like having a free demez or a free unroot because of your pet. But thanks so much for your honesty, Lerox.
Thu 26 Dec 2019 9:27 AM by Cadebrennus
Put Minstrels in Leather Armor instead of Chainmail. Problem solved, problem staying solved.
.
.
Thu 26 Dec 2019 11:09 AM by Nauglamir
Suggest to also take the insta stun from them and hand it to both bd and skald, because it fits them thematically and it would force an everage bd player to use a 3rd button. Also would be good for the server's skald population, we need more rr 3 to 9 skalds swarming Snowdonia.
Maybe also increase savage quadhit-rate, as we'r already at it. Very high risk, low reward class, an average keyboard-turning player with 0 situational awareness can hardly make it work with one finger, here's proof for my cause: nerf minstrel (don't forget to subscribe!)

Like this part of the forum a lot, btw - everyone that looses against any kind of class once because of his/her own inability can immediately come here, cry for nerf and feel good afterwards, very healthy to keep up the personal bubble and not evolve at all.
Thu 26 Dec 2019 1:41 PM by Lozara
Hahaha
Plz
Give me more fun with people QQing when
They can t kill someone.

Should we nerf a hunter pet because he can rupt? Haha
Or should we nerf NS direct dommages because they hurt? 🧐
Fri 27 Dec 2019 4:44 PM by Sindralor
Minstrel with pet is a Skyrim character that made its way into DaoC, with the amount of tools and cheese they can do you are best off not interacting with them at all and do your best to ignore them
Anyone defending this class know why they play it, atleast i can pretend they dont exist on a Sin
Fri 27 Dec 2019 5:21 PM by Cadebrennus
Sindralor wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 4:44 PM
Minstrel with pet is a Skyrim character that made its way into DaoC, with the amount of tools and cheese they can do you are best off not interacting with them at all and do your best to ignore them
Anyone defending this class know why they play it, atleast i can pretend they dont exist on a Sin

Agreed. When I play my Merc my first thought about Minstrels is "thank goodness they're on my side."
Fri 27 Dec 2019 6:52 PM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 26 Dec 2019 11:09 AM
Suggest to also take the insta stun from them and hand it to both bd and skald

You can mock people as much as you want, and create imaginary scenarios and pretend that's how people sound like. The only skill a minstrel needs, beyond pet control, is not overcommitting to a fight that he's actually losing. If he knows when that point comes and he stops and disengages, no one can do a damn thing.

And when you're done clowning around and pretending this class should be overpowered because it needs skill, maybe you can agree with me that pets should not behave in such way where releasing it benefits the minstrel. Sadly, devs have either not found a way to fix that or do not care. Which leads to 20 minstrels minimum a day around Uppland, ganking anything that moves. I should know, I'm chasing them. It would help your credibility if you had an honest opinion about the class, rather than being sarcastic and over protective .
Fri 27 Dec 2019 7:04 PM by Forlornhope
Loki wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 6:52 PM
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 26 Dec 2019 11:09 AM
Suggest to also take the insta stun from them and hand it to both bd and skald

You can mock people as much as you want, and create imaginary scenarios and pretend that's how people sound like. The only skill a minstrel needs, beyond pet control, is not overcommitting to a fight that he's actually losing. If he knows when that point comes and he stops and disengages, no one can do a damn thing.

And when you're done clowning around and pretending this class should be overpowered because it needs skill, maybe you can agree with me that pets should not behave in such way where releasing it benefits the minstrel. Sadly, devs have either not found a way to fix that or do not care. Which leads to 20 minstrels minimum a day around Uppland, ganking anything that moves. I should know, I'm chasing them. It would help your credibility if you had an honest opinion about the class, rather than being sarcastic and over protective .

The minsteral, and also light ment pet, being released in order to break cc is actually intended. They've stated it more than once, although I do agree with you. Minsteral's probably the dumbest class in this game and should not have half the tools it does have. But they're never going to actually do anything about it.
Fri 27 Dec 2019 7:09 PM by Loki
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 7:04 PM
The minsteral, and also light ment pet, being released in order to break cc is actually intended.

I'm more annoyed by the fact that not even a taunting style can swing the aggro of some pets, the stallion being the most common. There's an aggro value in there that needs to be minimized.
Fri 27 Dec 2019 7:12 PM by chryso
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 7:04 PM
The minstrel, and also light ment pet, being released in order to break cc is actually intended.

Maybe there should be a cooldown. If you release a pet you can not cast charm for 10 secs or something like that.
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:07 PM by Nauglamir
A BD that knows what he is doing can basically not loose.
Properly played Skalds with equal RR (being Slash and Kasimier, basically) are incredibly hard, not allowing for any mistake - and even if there are none, it's a 50/50 chance at max.
Properly played Shadowblade/Nightshade, knowing when to purge and how to switch weapons is very hard.
Properly played SM is extremely hard.
Properly played Hunter would be hard, have not met one.
Thane that knows how to use his tools is extremely hard.
Every properly played shieldtank is extremely hard.
Shamans that are properly played are hard.
Champions are a nightmare.
Every caster that runs solo is a free kill.

So, what shall I say - a well played Minstrel of equal RR can probably give everyone of those a hard fight and win most solo fights, yes.
But I stick to my opinion, most people are not even scratching the potential of their class, starting with basics like panning the damn camera and having a reaction time that's ... long to having no gameplan whatsoever when inc happens - except sticking, mashing styles and being pissed if they loose. There's a handful of solo players that really know their shit, and those are very hard. Minstrel can be handled, you just have to put a bit of thought into it and execute properly.

Or you continue crying.
Or play one yourself and see how extremely op and chilled it is to carry a pet around.

And on the topic of piggy-purge - hell, it has been this way forever. It is an intended behaviour. Is it fair? Is it putting solo/smallmen/group/zergfights out of balance? I have a biased opinion, you have another biased opinion, I get why it annoys every one else except Mentalists, Minstrels and the people grouping them. So .. all of Midgard, mostly. I am annoyed by bonedancers, intercept pets, savages that annihilate me within seconds if fate rolls the dice in their favour. But i try to handle it, and if I fuck up, so be it, I fucked up.

Closing up - try a bit and play one of the above mentioned classes, you'll be able to beat up a whole lot of Minstrels.
Or play one yourself. Just don't cry if it's not as easy and op as you thought it would be.
But asking for the Minstrel to loose one of it's core abilities, being able to charm high level pets (that have been nerfed into the ground already on this server) just because it annoys you .. where does it start, where does it end?
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:38 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 25 Dec 2019 12:44 PM
It's an overpowered class with no risk and high reward, an average player can make it work easily due to the large toolkit. Which is why uppland is swarming with rr3 to rr9 minsts. A lot of stuff is wrong about pets and minstrels know it, thats why "they wont say anything negative" about it. There's changes to be made that do not affect small man/8v8, like having a free demez or a free unroot because of your pet. But thanks so much for your honesty, Lerox.

It's popular because it has speed, and also stealth which lets them hang with stealth groups. Why else have active RvR Skalds outnumbered Minsts by double digit margins (if not hundreds at peak) for the entire history of this server, with maybe one or two whole *minutes* of exception?

If we're going by your argument (overpop = overpowered) the entire realm of Midgard is overpowered, so I don't think we want to open up that can of worms.
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:53 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 6:52 PM
You can mock people as much as you want, and create imaginary scenarios and pretend that's how people sound like. The only skill a minstrel needs, beyond pet control, is not overcommitting to a fight that he's actually losing. If he knows when that point comes and he stops and disengages, no one can do a damn thing.

Every single thing that takes any kind of skill in this game, the Minstrel absolutely requires to the highest level.

Getting positionals and reactionals off? Yes, the Minstrel needs to do this, and has the lowest weaponskill and skill points for any melee class to do this with (tied with Bard). You also have bad defenses/disengage tools against melee so good luck if you get caught; you'll have to time charges where other classes can just faceroll (hello BDs, SMs) out of bad positioning.

Casting? A minstrel needs to cast and avoid interrupts, but it has hard-coded cast times, lacks caster Dex, and 5s cast on its Mez. You need perfect positioning to avoid interrupts. Still requires knowing your cast ranges and being fast on the draw.

Pets? You need to realize that Minstrels unlike other pet casters needs to toggle-recharm, and it's a minimum of four actions (target pet, charm, recharm, retarget original target) just to get back to what you're doing if your pets charm drops because of range or resists or stun. If you think it's "easy" to manage a purple pet in combat, I dare you to release a vid of you doing so competently. The pet is also leashed so you need to manage a 2k distance from your pet and not just your target(s). Unlike a Ment, who is a backliner and can thus face and toss pets between a predictable rhythm of casts, a Minstrel needs to dodge and weave between melee and casting (and incur all those swap delays) and potentially whip around to take stock of where the pet is and then retarget, often. Being a melee/caster hybrid creates a ton of problems where otherwise your abilities are similar to a proper melee or caster's.

Range tracking and managing distance? You have to work with melee, casting, 700 range instas and a 2000 range charm, managing all from an awkward midline in combat, and you have no reliable melee CC so if you get caught you're stuck in melee. You can easily be too far back or too far in and the leeway for misjudging distance is very narrow for Minstrel. You have to constantly manage and track every single other person on the battle field or you're useless or dead.

Inc? You need to manage CC AND SoS, like a Bard, but you don't have the 2300 Amnesia crutch nor insta CC crutch like Mids/Hibs. Inc for a Minst is floating over the SoS while watching your Sorc, peeling in the right direction, engaging flute mez, 180ing multiple times. Not too different for a soloer, every single Mid or Hib you run into has some kind of insta bullshit to throw you off.

Chants and twisting? You have songs *and* chants. Bards rarely ever have to switch to melee and their positioning places less strain on their ability to twist. Skalds just have chants they can twist all day. EZ mode. Minstrels need to weave their mez and charm and ablative and speed and health song just to eke out the tiniest effect (double tap ablative + health song is a 25 DPS group buffer).

Instas? Very low range and require multiple retargets in subseconds to maximize effect (for interrupts). The Skald doesn't suffer so much because they have a 1500 range snare and are a melee class by default. Also see above, they don't need to cast anything. A minstrel is the only demezzer that has to get into melee range to do its job. Meanwhile a BD can just put rocks on a low level resist/lifetap if they want to interrupt, the RUT basically times itself for them.

So yeah, Minstrel takes more skill than any class in the game - by far. It's just that if you mess up most people won't notice because you need 3-5x the effort to get what another class has by default or with one keystroke.

It takes more skill to manage a pet in combat properly, and do nothing else, than entire classes.
Fri 27 Dec 2019 9:00 PM by teiloh
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 26 Dec 2019 9:27 AM
Put Minstrels in Leather Armor instead of Chainmail. Problem solved, problem staying solved.
.
.


Put rangers in cloth armor and evade 0. Problem solved, problem staying solved.
Fri 27 Dec 2019 10:25 PM by Cadebrennus
teiloh wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 9:00 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 26 Dec 2019 9:27 AM
Put Minstrels in Leather Armor instead of Chainmail. Problem solved, problem staying solved.
.
.


Put rangers in cloth armor and evade 0. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

lol cute,......... but not clever.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:36 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:53 PM
It takes more skill to manage a pet in combat properly, and do nothing else, than entire classes.

Everything you listed here also has it's good side, but ofc you won't mention that. Dishonest as expected.

Maybe we should start paying people to play minstrels, it's so damn hard guise !

Pathetic.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:00 AM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:07 PM
A BD that knows what he is doing can basically not loose.
Properly played Skalds with equal RR (being Slash and Kasimier, basically) are incredibly hard, not allowing for any mistake - and even if there are none, it's a 50/50 chance at max.
Properly played Shadowblade/Nightshade, knowing when to purge and how to switch weapons is very hard.
Properly played SM is extremely hard.
Properly played Hunter would be hard, have not met one.
Thane that knows how to use his tools is extremely hard.
Every properly played shieldtank is extremely hard.
Shamans that are properly played are hard.
Champions are a nightmare.
Every caster that runs solo is a free kill.

Damn the suspense in that list, I was almost worried minstrels cannot kill anything. 80% of what you listed, you can disengage at any point you want. As I said, minstrels can only be killed by overcommitting to a fight.

Pets have been nerfed to the ground, says Nauglamir while running with a red barguest. "Just kill the pet guise !" Hey, I have stun and mezz, let me grab this icestrider to have a full list of immunities. I'm in DF ? Shredders hit for 200+ at a one hand swing speed ! How about a nice giant umbrood warrior . Hey, the stallion procs like crazy while these b*tches are hitting me with their 200 something strenght hahaha ...and on and on and on.

I don't agree with OP about completely nerfing minstrel pets, so you can stop mentioning that. But some of these mechanics need a closer look. As for crying, there's plenty of minstrels in this thread who have done just that.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:29 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:00 AM
Damn the suspense in that list, I was almost worried minstrels cannot kill anything. 80% of what you listed, you can disengage at any point you want. As I said, minstrels can only be killed by overcommitting to a fight.

That's a function of having SOS, and the other realms have it as well (but shouldn't, on a "Classic" server).

Minstrels have versatility and two tools that make finding and picking fights easier (stealth + speed). In exchange you need to be good at the class or it's a worthless speed bot.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:31 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:29 AM
Loki wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:00 AM
Damn the suspense in that list, I was almost worried minstrels cannot kill anything. 80% of what you listed, you can disengage at any point you want. As I said, minstrels can only be killed by overcommitting to a fight.

Cry more. That's a function of having SOS, and the other realms have it as well (but shouldn't, on a "Classic" server)

You ok honey ? Santa didn't bring you anything ?
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:35 AM by Nauglamir
As I clearly stated - well played Minstrel can probably beat everyone, dependent on the active ra's available.
So can many other classes. But the grass on the other side tends to be greener, for sure.
Almost forgot why I tend to not involve myself in forum discussions.
Nothing else to say, have fun guys, I'm out.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:40 AM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:35 AM
As I clearly stated - well played Minstrel can probably beat everyone, dependent on the active ra's available.
So can many other classes. But the grass on the other side tends to be greener, for sure.
Almost forgot why I tend to not involve myself in forum discussions.
Nothing else to say, have fun guys, I'm out.

Hey , feel free to roll a hunter or a shammy and show us how it's done. I'll provide the templates for ya. You clearly stated something, then added a bunch of stuff that contradict it. It's typical mental gymnastics for this forum.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:56 AM by Nauglamir
How did I contradict myself? Except for saying I'm out and now I couldn't resist to do a 180. Played too much Minstrel, probably ...
And thanks for the offer, but I've played through Midgard. Except for the Hunter, that's almost tempting
Sat 28 Dec 2019 10:22 AM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:56 AM
How did I contradict myself? Except for saying I'm out and now I couldn't resist to do a 180. Played too much Minstrel, probably ...
And thanks for the offer, but I've played through Midgard. Except for the Hunter, that's almost tempting

You started off whining about other classes , throwing in hissy fits about how skalds should receive stun cus there's so many of them in Snowdonia (that has to be a joke, there's more minstrels now in Uppland than there's mids, if you have a kill feed window you should know better than that ), from that to savages and their quad hits and then turning to people that cry on forums whenever they die. And you have the nerve to remind yourself why you don't get mixed up in these forums, when you just derailed the conversation with utter non sense.

Then when you said minstrel can potentially kill anyone, you also listed equal high RR skalds as having a 50/50 chance and then went down the list with some funny classes that I think you picked off live actually. So when you agree a good minst can kill anyone but then add some classes are hard when well played and even up to a 50/50 chance, you kinda throw away the clearness of your statement. I'm not surprised you'd be so disingenuous to pretend that isn't there. After all, the statement about minstrels being able to kill anyone was just a safety net you can back track to at any point.

The OP's main class is a hunter, he whined about minst on a small scale - small men to solo. Were minstrels reign supreme. No one says there are no weird mechanics in the game, yes savages suck when they quad hit you, yes insta spells dont need skills, yes intercept sucks, yes champs are the kings of melee (my god , it looks like you're crying more than anyone else tbh) , yes like the other dude says, a good minst in a large fight needs a lot of skill, but in small scale an average minst can outperform anyone and I do believe the main problem is pet mechanics. A lot of it here needs to be fine tuned, from not needing a demezz/unroot on yourself and your pet, to some of the procs and some of the mobs you are able to charm that have huge hp pool and damage potential compared to most of the classes. So really, just kill the pet doesn't count as an advice here. I do not agree, as I stated before and you ignored for victimhood points, that the ability needs to be completely nerfed. But if I need to purge your mezz, so should you. The decision needs to have some risk involved, and you minstrels dont risk anything (thanks to the dude who explained how minstrels need 4 - FOUR - clicks to recharm a pet, yes Id be willing to click that and keep the purge).

Anyway I cba to talk anymore, you obviously are here to mock people and tell them to git gud and stop crying and so forth. Hope that goes well for ya. Happy New Year !
Sat 28 Dec 2019 10:56 AM by Nauglamir
You started off whining about other classes , throwing in hissy fits about how skalds should receive stun cus there's so many of them in Snowdonia (that has to be a joke, there's more minstrels now in Uppland than there's mids, if you have a kill feed window you should know better than that ), from that to savages and their quad hits and then turning to people that cry on forums whenever they die. And you have the nerve to remind yourself why you don't get mixed up in these forums, when you just derailed the conversation with utter non sense.


Just continued on Cadebrennus hyperbolic statement. Problem solved, problem staying solved. If you don't get that .. yeah. No whine at all. Try to read again.


Then when you said minstrel can potentially kill anyone, you also listed equal high RR skalds as having a 50/50 chance and then went down the list with some funny classes that I think you picked off live actually. So when you agree a good minst can kill anyone but then add some classes are hard when well played and even up to a 50/50 chance, you kinda throw away the clearness of your statement. I'm not surprised you'd be so disingenuous to pretend that isn't there. After all, the statement about minstrels being able to kill anyone was just a safety net you can back track to at any point.


Minstrel can potentially kill everybody, good players on mentioned classes have a good chance to kill good Minstrel, bad players just explode against good Minstrel, bad Minstrel dies hopelessly against most classes, good BD just rapes everybody. Pretty easy. Try to read again.


The OP's main class is a hunter, he whined about minst on a small scale - small men to solo.


The small men part .. you absolutely added that after you did read, inside your head. He lost 1 vs 1, the healing pet is the culprit, it needs to go, he wants to win. Try to read again.


No one says there are no weird mechanics in the game, yes savages suck when they quad hit you, yes insta spells dont need skills, yes intercept sucks, yes champs are the kings of melee (my god , it looks like you're crying more than anyone else tbh) , yes like the other dude says, a good minst in a large fight needs a lot of skill, but in small scale an average minst can outperform anyone and I do believe the main problem is pet mechanics. A lot of it here needs to be fine tuned, from not needing a demezz/unroot on yourself and your pet, to some of the procs and some of the mobs you are able to charm that have huge hp pool and damage potential compared to most of the classes. So really, just kill the pet doesn't count as an advice here. I do not agree, as I stated before and you ignored for victimhood points, that the ability needs to be completely nerfed. But if I need to purge your mezz, so should you. The decision needs to have some risk involved, and you minstrels dont risk anything (thanks to the dude who explained how minstrels need 4 - FOUR - clicks to recharm a pet, yes Id be willing to click that and keep the purge).


As said before - where does it start, where does it end.
Take the pet behaviour from Minstrel, a concept that was intended by Mythic all along. A concept that lets him potentially win when stated classes are in the hand of good players. Then people want spiritmasters to loose intercept pet, Champions to loose debuffs, Shadowblades to loose dot-poison. And according to your logic, it would be justified to take it from them. Because .. someone else doesn't want them to have it, s reason enough. And maybe take det from Skalds, totally unfair! Bohoo! See?

To sum it up again, finally now - Minstrel is strong, so are other classes, a good Minstrel can't be beaten by a bad player, a good Minstrel can be beaten by a good player, a bad player can't possibly beat a good Minstrel.

And, don't get angry now, but your contextual reading skills are really lackluster.
Makes written conversation very tedious. Or pointless. A bit of both, probably.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 11:15 AM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 10:56 AM
pointless
If you wanna address Caddebrenus, you should quote him . Don't accuse me of lackluster reading when you can't properly have a written conversation. I added the small man part because the other minst made a whole list of allegedly minstrel weaknesses, many of whom make no sense in 1v1.

As I said, you're very dishonest and quite boring tbh. All this anyone can kill anyone if they git gud while refusing to look at the mechanics I mentioned is obvious and the fact that you equate me saying there needs to be another look at some mechanics to completely removing them, and THAT you equate to removing RAs and features from other classes ...my god , how stoned are you . Laughable.

Also saying thats how Mythic intended it to be 15-20 years ago really isn't a smart argument.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 11:35 AM by Loki
I could see 2 changes that could balance the class, either of them would be useful, both would be a bit much.

Any damage after pet is released gives aggro to the damage dealer.

Mezz and stun share cooldown, so that you can't wombo-combo anymore and actually have to make a conscious choice.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 2:38 PM by Azrael
Loki wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 11:35 AM
Any damage after pet is released gives aggro to the damage dealer.

erm, this is already the case?!? It seems you confuse it with ppl do their pets on passive/follow and only hit release button if its stands near the minstrel wich is one of many points between a well and a bad played minstrell. but according to some ppl it is sooo easy now with ahk it takes no skill anymore *wooosh* one button class
Sat 28 Dec 2019 2:43 PM by Wolfir666
Azrael wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 2:38 PM
Loki wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 11:35 AM
Any damage after pet is released gives aggro to the damage dealer.

erm, this is already the case?!? It seems you confuse it with ppl do their pets on passive/follow and only hit release button if its stands near the minstrel wich is one of many points between a well and a bad played minstrell. but according to some ppl it is sooo easy now with ahk it takes no skill anymore *wooosh* one button class

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9016

from the Minstrel-Forums.. according to the information there, it seems to be easy with using AHK-script.
If that info in there is allowed though or not, no idea, the post is still open and no Dev said otherwise in that thread.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 6:00 PM by Cadebrennus
Nauglamir wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 10:56 AM
You started off whining about other classes , throwing in hissy fits about how skalds should receive stun cus there's so many of them in Snowdonia (that has to be a joke, there's more minstrels now in Uppland than there's mids, if you have a kill feed window you should know better than that ), from that to savages and their quad hits and then turning to people that cry on forums whenever they die. And you have the nerve to remind yourself why you don't get mixed up in these forums, when you just derailed the conversation with utter non sense.


Just continued on Cadebrennus hyperbolic statement. Problem solved, problem staying solved. If you don't get that .. yeah. No whine at all. Try to read again.


Then when you said minstrel can potentially kill anyone, you also listed equal high RR skalds as having a 50/50 chance and then went down the list with some funny classes that I think you picked off live actually. So when you agree a good minst can kill anyone but then add some classes are hard when well played and even up to a 50/50 chance, you kinda throw away the clearness of your statement. I'm not surprised you'd be so disingenuous to pretend that isn't there. After all, the statement about minstrels being able to kill anyone was just a safety net you can back track to at any point.


Minstrel can potentially kill everybody, good players on mentioned classes have a good chance to kill good Minstrel, bad players just explode against good Minstrel, bad Minstrel dies hopelessly against most classes, good BD just rapes everybody. Pretty easy. Try to read again.


The OP's main class is a hunter, he whined about minst on a small scale - small men to solo.


The small men part .. you absolutely added that after you did read, inside your head. He lost 1 vs 1, the healing pet is the culprit, it needs to go, he wants to win. Try to read again.


No one says there are no weird mechanics in the game, yes savages suck when they quad hit you, yes insta spells dont need skills, yes intercept sucks, yes champs are the kings of melee (my god , it looks like you're crying more than anyone else tbh) , yes like the other dude says, a good minst in a large fight needs a lot of skill, but in small scale an average minst can outperform anyone and I do believe the main problem is pet mechanics. A lot of it here needs to be fine tuned, from not needing a demezz/unroot on yourself and your pet, to some of the procs and some of the mobs you are able to charm that have huge hp pool and damage potential compared to most of the classes. So really, just kill the pet doesn't count as an advice here. I do not agree, as I stated before and you ignored for victimhood points, that the ability needs to be completely nerfed. But if I need to purge your mezz, so should you. The decision needs to have some risk involved, and you minstrels dont risk anything (thanks to the dude who explained how minstrels need 4 - FOUR - clicks to recharm a pet, yes Id be willing to click that and keep the purge).


As said before - where does it start, where does it end.
Take the pet behaviour from Minstrel, a concept that was intended by Mythic all along. A concept that lets him potentially win when stated classes are in the hand of good players. Then people want spiritmasters to loose intercept pet, Champions to loose debuffs, Shadowblades to loose dot-poison. And according to your logic, it would be justified to take it from them. Because .. someone else doesn't want them to have it, s reason enough. And maybe take det from Skalds, totally unfair! Bohoo! See?

To sum it up again, finally now - Minstrel is strong, so are other classes, a good Minstrel can't be beaten by a bad player, a good Minstrel can be beaten by a good player, a bad player can't possibly beat a good Minstrel.

And, don't get angry now, but your contextual reading skills are really lackluster.
Makes written conversation very tedious. Or pointless. A bit of both, probably.

And what exactly was hyperbolic? Stating something without facts or even a quote makes you at best, an uninformed speaker, and at worst, an outright liar.


Back to the subject though.

Perhaps making a pet under Minstrel charm uncharmable for 30 seconds after it's released from being charmed, with aggro on the Minstrel, would make the pet issue more balanced. I think doing that for all charmable pets would be balanced for many classes.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 6:26 PM by gotwqqd
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 6:00 PM
Nauglamir wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 10:56 AM
You started off whining about other classes , throwing in hissy fits about how skalds should receive stun cus there's so many of them in Snowdonia (that has to be a joke, there's more minstrels now in Uppland than there's mids, if you have a kill feed window you should know better than that ), from that to savages and their quad hits and then turning to people that cry on forums whenever they die. And you have the nerve to remind yourself why you don't get mixed up in these forums, when you just derailed the conversation with utter non sense.


Just continued on Cadebrennus hyperbolic statement. Problem solved, problem staying solved. If you don't get that .. yeah. No whine at all. Try to read again.


Then when you said minstrel can potentially kill anyone, you also listed equal high RR skalds as having a 50/50 chance and then went down the list with some funny classes that I think you picked off live actually. So when you agree a good minst can kill anyone but then add some classes are hard when well played and even up to a 50/50 chance, you kinda throw away the clearness of your statement. I'm not surprised you'd be so disingenuous to pretend that isn't there. After all, the statement about minstrels being able to kill anyone was just a safety net you can back track to at any point.


Minstrel can potentially kill everybody, good players on mentioned classes have a good chance to kill good Minstrel, bad players just explode against good Minstrel, bad Minstrel dies hopelessly against most classes, good BD just rapes everybody. Pretty easy. Try to read again.


The OP's main class is a hunter, he whined about minst on a small scale - small men to solo.


The small men part .. you absolutely added that after you did read, inside your head. He lost 1 vs 1, the healing pet is the culprit, it needs to go, he wants to win. Try to read again.


No one says there are no weird mechanics in the game, yes savages suck when they quad hit you, yes insta spells dont need skills, yes intercept sucks, yes champs are the kings of melee (my god , it looks like you're crying more than anyone else tbh) , yes like the other dude says, a good minst in a large fight needs a lot of skill, but in small scale an average minst can outperform anyone and I do believe the main problem is pet mechanics. A lot of it here needs to be fine tuned, from not needing a demezz/unroot on yourself and your pet, to some of the procs and some of the mobs you are able to charm that have huge hp pool and damage potential compared to most of the classes. So really, just kill the pet doesn't count as an advice here. I do not agree, as I stated before and you ignored for victimhood points, that the ability needs to be completely nerfed. But if I need to purge your mezz, so should you. The decision needs to have some risk involved, and you minstrels dont risk anything (thanks to the dude who explained how minstrels need 4 - FOUR - clicks to recharm a pet, yes Id be willing to click that and keep the purge).


As said before - where does it start, where does it end.
Take the pet behaviour from Minstrel, a concept that was intended by Mythic all along. A concept that lets him potentially win when stated classes are in the hand of good players. Then people want spiritmasters to loose intercept pet, Champions to loose debuffs, Shadowblades to loose dot-poison. And according to your logic, it would be justified to take it from them. Because .. someone else doesn't want them to have it, s reason enough. And maybe take det from Skalds, totally unfair! Bohoo! See?

To sum it up again, finally now - Minstrel is strong, so are other classes, a good Minstrel can't be beaten by a bad player, a good Minstrel can be beaten by a good player, a bad player can't possibly beat a good Minstrel.

And, don't get angry now, but your contextual reading skills are really lackluster.
Makes written conversation very tedious. Or pointless. A bit of both, probably.

And what exactly was hyperbolic? Stating something without facts or even a quote makes you at best, an uninformed speaker, and at worst, an outright liar.


Back to the subject though.

Perhaps making a pet under Minstrel charm uncharmable for 30 seconds after it's released from being charmed, with aggro on the Minstrel, would make the pet issue more balanced. I think doing that for all charmable pets would be balanced for many classes.
So
What’s the chance that you lose a pet when spamming charm throughout?
If your not then fixing the issue and need stop spamming you might as well come up with a max level you deem appropriate and eliminate charm break.
Because who will want a pet that breaks in a combat situation that will end up attacking you with no chance of recharm for 30 seconds. Trying to cc the pet for 30 seconds is not a recourse
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:38 PM by Cadebrennus
gotwqqd wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 6:26 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 6:00 PM
Nauglamir wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 10:56 AM
Just continued on Cadebrennus hyperbolic statement. Problem solved, problem staying solved. If you don't get that .. yeah. No whine at all. Try to read again.





Minstrel can potentially kill everybody, good players on mentioned classes have a good chance to kill good Minstrel, bad players just explode against good Minstrel, bad Minstrel dies hopelessly against most classes, good BD just rapes everybody. Pretty easy. Try to read again.





The small men part .. you absolutely added that after you did read, inside your head. He lost 1 vs 1, the healing pet is the culprit, it needs to go, he wants to win. Try to read again.





As said before - where does it start, where does it end.
Take the pet behaviour from Minstrel, a concept that was intended by Mythic all along. A concept that lets him potentially win when stated classes are in the hand of good players. Then people want spiritmasters to loose intercept pet, Champions to loose debuffs, Shadowblades to loose dot-poison. And according to your logic, it would be justified to take it from them. Because .. someone else doesn't want them to have it, s reason enough. And maybe take det from Skalds, totally unfair! Bohoo! See?

To sum it up again, finally now - Minstrel is strong, so are other classes, a good Minstrel can't be beaten by a bad player, a good Minstrel can be beaten by a good player, a bad player can't possibly beat a good Minstrel.

And, don't get angry now, but your contextual reading skills are really lackluster.
Makes written conversation very tedious. Or pointless. A bit of both, probably.

And what exactly was hyperbolic? Stating something without facts or even a quote makes you at best, an uninformed speaker, and at worst, an outright liar.


Back to the subject though.

Perhaps making a pet under Minstrel charm uncharmable for 30 seconds after it's released from being charmed, with aggro on the Minstrel, would make the pet issue more balanced. I think doing that for all charmable pets would be balanced for many classes.
So
What’s the chance that you lose a pet when spamming charm throughout?
If your not then fixing the issue and need stop spamming you might as well come up with a max level you deem appropriate and eliminate charm break.
Because who will want a pet that breaks in a combat situation that will end up attacking you with no chance of recharm for 30 seconds. Trying to cc the pet for 30 seconds is not a recourse

Perhaps a 1 to 2 second grace period for re-charm? It's just an idea to bring any semblance of balance to this class. Even when I played my Merc on Live running duo and smallman with Minstrels I knew how horribly unfair it was to the other realms. That and the fact that we were both wearing chainmail and on top of that the dude could not only stealth but also climb goddamn walls.
Sun 29 Dec 2019 7:16 AM by Nauglamir
And what exactly was hyperbolic? Stating something without facts or even a quote makes you at best, an uninformed speaker, and at worst, an outright liar.

Giving Minstrel leather armour - problem solved, problem staying solved? That's hyperbolic to me, sarcastic even, didn't think that was a serious statement.
I was wrong. It was obviously a statement without facts and coming from an uninformed speaker. Leather armour on Minstrel - would be a fun class to play in solo, smallmen and group situations. And absolutely everyone could beat them! Not solo casters .. maybe really take the insta stun and give it to Skalds. And maybe people should even be able to taunt the pet after release. Oh, wait .. forgot. Already the case. Then maybe they should have stun and mezz on the same timer. But just them. Not the other realms. That sounds good.

Generally, did you ever think about offering yourself as head of game balancing? Together with Loki, maybe, as a shared position? You two can surely make Phoenix great again.
Sun 29 Dec 2019 8:23 AM by Cadebrennus
Nauglamir wrote:
Sun 29 Dec 2019 7:16 AM
And what exactly was hyperbolic? Stating something without facts or even a quote makes you at best, an uninformed speaker, and at worst, an outright liar.

Giving Minstrel leather armour - problem solved, problem staying solved? That's hyperbolic to me, sarcastic even, didn't think that was a serious statement.
I was wrong. It was obviously a statement without facts and coming from an uninformed speaker. Leather armour on Minstrel - would be a fun class to play in solo, smallmen and group situations. And absolutely everyone could beat them! Not solo casters .. maybe really take the insta stun and give it to Skalds. And maybe people should even be able to taunt the pet after release. Oh, wait .. forgot. Already the case. Then maybe they should have stun and mezz on the same timer. But just them. Not the other realms. That sounds good.

Generally, did you ever think about offering yourself as head of game balancing? Together with Loki, maybe, as a shared position? You two can surely make Phoenix great again.

Yet still no evidence as to why it's hyperbolic, along with throwing everyone else's argument in with mine, as if I said all those other things. Nice try on the disinformation campaign.

Oh, and "problem solved, problem staying solved" is a quote from Action Figure Therapy. It's a comedy series on YouTube that we all used to watch while on deployment to Afghanistan.
Sun 29 Dec 2019 9:43 AM by Nauglamir
Same issue as Loki, insufficient contextual reading skills .. no disinformation campaign from my side, no fake news, just me, basically repeating myself (stun on Skald, higher quadhit rate, etc.) - as weird an idea as leather armour on minst, you call that an allegory.
I thought we have a conversation and you could remember who said what, because it's even possible to reread it.
But I forgot, it's the internet ...

Now, finally, I'm really out. Promise!
Sun 29 Dec 2019 10:47 AM by Loki
You were out from the first post in this thread, don't worry.
Sun 29 Dec 2019 10:50 AM by Siouxsie
I wonder what drugs Mark Jacobs was on when he came up with the minstrel?

"Hey, I know guys! Let's make a speed class that can stealth, charm any pet it wants, climb walls and oh yeah we'll give it tons of utility like mezz and instant stun!"

Dumbest idea ever. Minstrel class needs to be eviscerated and rebalanced.
Sun 29 Dec 2019 6:22 PM by teiloh
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 29 Dec 2019 10:50 AM
I wonder what drugs Mark Jacobs was on when he came up with the minstrel?

"Hey, I know guys! Let's make a speed class that can stealth, charm any pet it wants, climb walls and oh yeah we'll give it tons of utility like mezz and instant stun!"

Dumbest idea ever. Minstrel class needs to be eviscerated and rebalanced.

Worst stealth in the game, worst melee in the game, and most of its abilities cannot be used at the same time. If you deleted Minstrels and gave Scouts speed and demezz Mid and Hib would be shitting bricks.
Sun 29 Dec 2019 6:25 PM by teiloh
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:38 PM
Perhaps a 1 to 2 second grace period for re-charm? It's just an idea to bring any semblance of balance to this class. Even when I played my Merc on Live running duo and smallman with Minstrels I knew how horribly unfair it was to the other realms. That and the fact that we were both wearing chainmail and on top of that the dude could not only stealth but also climb goddamn walls.

Nope. Working as intended. The charm is highly fickle and takes maintenance and skill to use. We can try to "nerf" Minstrels by giving them SM or BD pets though, see what the whiners think.

A Bard would be a far better duo partner unless the Minstrel has a pet, or you're both trolling keeps for people that aren't paying attention.
Sun 29 Dec 2019 6:31 PM by Pao
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 29 Dec 2019 10:50 AM
I wonder what drugs Mark Jacobs was on when he came up with the minstrel?

"Hey, I know guys! Let's make a speed class that can stealth, charm any pet it wants, climb walls and oh yeah we'll give it tons of utility like mezz and instant stun!"

Dumbest idea ever. Minstrel class needs to be eviscerated and rebalanced.

He just took what was already there from DnD rule set.
Sun 29 Dec 2019 7:13 PM by Senti
No, but you are completely sick or crazy I don't know, if there is not a nerve kingdom it's not good Alb, must stop the minstrel is not cheat and far from it, and taking a fart is a constraint huge to switcher all evening it's heavy.

you want to nerve the minstrel? we talk about the BD with 3 pet which the heal barely 1% less life? the mid mage with are the fart that you hit the mage is the fart that collects everything? the mage hib stun? the crazy debuff of the champions?

Please sweep in front of your door before telling bullshit, this server in cocoa but serious .....

I remind you all the same that it is supposed to be a classic 1.65 server, if you want the latest version of the game, I invite you to go to the official!
Sun 29 Dec 2019 7:21 PM by Loki
I swept in front of my door but didn't find any cocoa ... Is my quest bugged ?
Sun 29 Dec 2019 7:58 PM by Wolfir666
Senti wrote:
Sun 29 Dec 2019 7:13 PM
I remind you all the same that it is supposed to be a classic 1.65 server

Since when?
That server isn't classic at all, its a freeshard-mixture of different stuff and then changed and adjusted towards the likings of the Devs.

Apart from that, i had serious difficulties to read the rest of what was written in that post, as minstrels are indeed getting on my nerves and luckily it doesn't fart at all.. yet... Shamans PBAE-Fart though^^
Sun 29 Dec 2019 8:24 PM by Lipsi
I don't think the charm spells are the problem. Not the minstrel pets, nor the SM pet (based on "Nerf the pet" suggestions topics of the forum).

I think it is the confusion spell that would benefit some rework, since there must be a counter to pets at some extent. Right now, it doesn't seem to affect pets in rvr at all, except for killing theurgist's ones.

Because this is a suggestion forum, here is my suggestion :
- Necroservant, Shrooms and BD pets obviously shouldn't be affected at all and be immune to confusion

- "attached" pets like SM, Enchant, Caba, Druid and Hunter's dog would get confused and stop responding to orders - but never turn against their owners. Since confusion also works a little bit like a pulse within the duration of the spell, each pulse of confusion could be resisted so that pets are not disabled for too long.

- charmed pets on pulse like minstrels and mentalists could get confused and act like confused mobs in PVE = either stop responding, attack randomly or even turn against their owner, each pulse of the minstrel or mentalist allowing to regain control of the pet in a normal state, but each pulse of the confusion for the duration of confuse repeating the same effects.

- permanently charmed pets like sorcerers and hunters (insects) could get confused, for them the confusion would act like a release of the pet (attacking the owner but allowing for recharm - by previous owner - or the ennemy ^^ ).

This would add utility to the confusion spell and give a counter to pets, while not generalizing it because only few classes have access to confusion. There could be an immune timer afterwards to avoid confusion locking of the pets.

Yes, i am hib, and they have confusion from Bard and Mentalist, while Mid is only RM and Alb only Minstrel if i don't mistake. But hey, aren't the "Nerf that pets now" posts on the forum indeed all about Alb and Mids pets (minstrel and SM) ? Never crossed a Nerf Druid's pet post yet ))
May be that was even intended to work like that originaly by Mythic, hence giving Minstrel charm and confusion in a single spec line, while mentalist having to choose between one or the other explaining why they gave confusion to bard as well. Though i don't think confusion actually ever got fixed on live, they "fixed" somehow the pets issue with TOA release and the Warlords cry that made the pets ran away.

edit : opening another suggestion thread to develop this idea.
Tue 31 Dec 2019 2:13 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Sun 29 Dec 2019 6:22 PM
Worst stealth in the game, worst melee in the game, and most of its abilities cannot be used at the same time.

Worst stealth in the game ? Stealth is bad on Phoenix, period. Minst stealth is good enough to escape.
Worst melee in the game ? I've seen minstrels constantly go toe to toe with tanks and hybrids. It's not like styles don't land, and together with DD procs and pet, you outdamage everyone except maybe a heavy debuffer like champ, or a lucky savage (btw there are no solo savages so you clowns constantly mentioning them is a pathetic excuse). Minst melee is GOOD ENOUGH for a classic based shard with no bonuses to style/swing speed or evade for melee chars.

And since you keep bringing casting and how dex doesn't affect cast speed, please make my day and ask that from devs. Because 1. you wont be able to mezz in motion and 2. it will be interruptable and not this joke thats going on right now (I've had Naugamur lose his frore lich and still mezz me with the pet constantly bashing him, I've had other minsts land mezz because my melee hit was a miss - which caster can land a mezz in combat without quickcast ?).

You have a 10 sec recast insta stun and spammable mezz, gtfo with your whining. On top of that, you have a pet that single handedly outdamages most melee classes. There's minsts patrolling Uppland up and down every day and you're telling me "no guise, minstrels have to be OP cus you click a lot" when you all have macros up the wazoo and playing one-handed. I'm not even joking, literally watched a minstrel streaming and spinning chants one handed while picking his nose.

You want all classes to have as little toys as possible , while you have them all. I'd say thats being a hypocrite .
Wed 1 Jan 2020 9:27 AM by Siouxsie
Loki wrote:
Tue 31 Dec 2019 2:13 PM
teiloh wrote:
Sun 29 Dec 2019 6:22 PM
Worst stealth in the game, worst melee in the game, and most of its abilities cannot be used at the same time.

Worst stealth in the game ? Stealth is bad on Phoenix, period. Minst stealth is good enough to escape.
Worst melee in the game ? I've seen minstrels constantly go toe to toe with tanks and hybrids. It's not like styles don't land, and together with DD procs and pet, you outdamage everyone except maybe a heavy debuffer like champ, or a lucky savage (btw there are no solo savages so you clowns constantly mentioning them is a pathetic excuse). Minst melee is GOOD ENOUGH for a classic based shard with no bonuses to style/swing speed or evade for melee chars.

And since you keep bringing casting and how dex doesn't affect cast speed, please make my day and ask that from devs. Because 1. you wont be able to mezz in motion and 2. it will be interruptable and not this joke thats going on right now (I've had Naugamur lose his frore lich and still mezz me with the pet constantly bashing him, I've had other minsts land mezz because my melee hit was a miss - which caster can land a mezz in combat without quickcast ?).

You have a 10 sec recast insta stun and spammable mezz, gtfo with your whining. On top of that, you have a pet that single handedly outdamages most melee classes. There's minsts patrolling Uppland up and down every day and you're telling me "no guise, minstrels have to be OP cus you click a lot" when you all have macros up the wazoo and playing one-handed. I'm not even joking, literally watched a minstrel streaming and spinning chants one handed while picking his nose.

You want all classes to have as little toys as possible , while you have them all. I'd say thats being a hypocrite .

1000000% agree.
Minstrels still do that cheap constant-rupting with flute mezz animation and apparently it's "by design".
Load of utter bollocks.

Just make it so when minstrel charms a pet, if that pet has buffs, or heals, or spells.. cut those values in half or down to 33%.
That will make it less overpowering.

Also, if the minstrel loses pet charm, and they're in combat. Tough shit.. you lose the pet.
Wed 1 Jan 2020 10:28 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Tue 31 Dec 2019 2:13 PM
Worst stealth in the game ? Stealth is bad on Phoenix, period. Minst stealth is good enough to escape.

Still the worst in the game and if you want 30+ stealth you need to give up a huge portion of your spec points, making your shitty melee even shittier.

Worst melee in the game ? I've seen minstrels constantly go toe to toe with tanks and hybrids. It's not like styles don't land, and together with DD procs and pet, you outdamage everyone except maybe a heavy debuffer like champ, or a lucky savage (btw there are no solo savages so you clowns constantly mentioning them is a pathetic excuse). Minst melee is GOOD ENOUGH for a classic based shard with no bonuses to style/swing speed or evade for melee chars.

Minstrel melee is trash. The pet doesn't count, this is a discussion about why they have a strong pet.

And since you keep bringing casting and how dex doesn't affect cast speed, please make my day and ask that from devs. Because 1. you wont be able to mezz in motion and 2. it will be interruptable and not this joke thats going on right now (I've had Naugamur lose his frore lich and still mezz me with the pet constantly bashing him, I've had other minsts land mezz because my melee hit was a miss - which caster can land a mezz in combat without quickcast ?).

Minstrel flute mez does get interrupted. I don't know what fantasy world you're playing in.

You have a 10 sec recast insta stun and spammable mezz, gtfo with your whining. On top of that, you have a pet that single handedly outdamages most melee classes. There's minsts patrolling Uppland up and down every day and you're telling me "no guise, minstrels have to be OP cus you click a lot" when you all have macros up the wazoo and playing one-handed. I'm not even joking, literally watched a minstrel streaming and spinning chants one handed while picking his nose.

Cry more. Minstrels would be better off with a reliable stun style than with the Insta stun any day. You "spin chants" one handed only while traveling, no other class has to mash buttons just to go from one place to another. Go ahead and upload your leet pet Minstrel gameplay, your answers are laughable.

You want all classes to have as little toys as possible , while you have them all. I'd say thats being a hypocrite .

Nope. You should learn how to read. I said the Minstrel has a good pet and a lot of tools because their many tools are the shittiest versions to be found in the game, other than the pet and speed. They're popular solo because they have speed and maybe stealth, not because they're uber. There are tons more Skalds and they don't have stealth or a pet. Probably better suited to the average skill level of Mids, who skill-lessly zerg the forums as much as they do the game apparently.

Like I said, whiny Mids should take a look in the mirror when they cry about this or that class being overpop. Funny how you're calling Minstrel rationalists whiners when we're in the 9912894th whine thread posted by spoiled, whiny Mids demanding everything be handed to them as if SoS, BOF, etc weren't enough.
Wed 1 Jan 2020 10:29 PM by teiloh
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 1 Jan 2020 9:27 AM
1000000% agree.
Minstrels still do that cheap constant-rupting with flute mezz animation and apparently it's "by design".
Load of utter bollocks.

Just make it so when minstrel charms a pet, if that pet has buffs, or heals, or spells.. cut those values in half or down to 33%.
That will make it less overpowering.

Also, if the minstrel loses pet charm, and they're in combat. Tough shit.. you lose the pet.

Great idea. How about if Hunters get interrupted, tough shit, you lose the bow.

We can all have incredibly dumb ideas based in our QQ and whines with no rational support behind them, can't we?
Thu 2 Jan 2020 12:19 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 1 Jan 2020 10:28 PM
Minstrel flute mez does get interrupted. I don't know what fantasy world you're playing in.

Ah, so you're clueless ... you're here to defend minstrels and you don't know THAT much.

So you want a reliable stun style , instead of a 9 sec, 700 range, 10 sec cooldown insta stun. Aren't you considerate. But I thought your melee is trash ? So maybe melee isn't that trash after all, and definitely not as trash as you'd like people to believe. Why does a disingenuous clown like you come on the forums with this BS, I wonder. You must be really bored.

Anyway, when you pull out arguments like "cry more" and "whiny mids" out of your shiny arse, you already lost the fight. And you can make up as many of those whiny threads as you want, just stick to facts. You failed here, time to move on. Go troll somewhere else.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 12:45 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 1 Jan 2020 10:28 PM
Minstrel flute mez does get interrupted. I don't know what fantasy world you're playing in.



Thu 2 Jan 2020 1:12 AM by Cadebrennus
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 12:45 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 1 Jan 2020 10:28 PM
Minstrel flute mez does get interrupted. I don't know what fantasy world you're playing in.





All opinions aside, what did you make those sweet GIFs with?
Thu 2 Jan 2020 1:26 AM by Loki
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 1:12 AM
All opinions aside, what did you make those sweet GIFs with?
recorded with shadowplay, then used gifcam and uploaded on imgur
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:09 AM by Saldinna
You've been playing long enough, haven't you? Without talking anything negative now, Alb is the simplest best realm here on servers. The mids have no charge, so they fall for a quick dead anyway since all kites and at least 3 pets with running also moc nukers and healers in an alb grp. In addition there is the rune master, who deals with the topic and also good Aes, but this is a Wiz Ae gift has red NS and a snare on earth, the debuff lasts longer I totally forgot. Only the RM can go to Dmg or at most a blue NS, was totally unfair here is from the balance .. even alone one ends a fairness here .. apart from that most of the alb grpn with 2 minnen run around or 2 witches. Is not just the minne times nerf need. The hibs still go despite stun nuker and caster pets hat ...

we summarize the empire has more pets the debuffs last longer the char have more use than everyone else in the counter and still want more love patches? So something has to happen soon, otherwise you only see albs running around when people are tired of pilzpower zerg .. rip server? I think that unchained is coming anyway, so it ends here in summer
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:48 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 12:19 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 1 Jan 2020 10:28 PM
Minstrel flute mez does get interrupted. I don't know what fantasy world you're playing in.

Ah, so you're clueless ... you're here to defend minstrels and you don't know THAT much.

So you want a reliable stun style , instead of a 9 sec, 700 range, 10 sec cooldown insta stun. Aren't you considerate. But I thought your melee is trash ? So maybe melee isn't that trash after all, and definitely not as trash as you'd like people to believe. Why does a disingenuous clown like you come on the forums with this BS, I wonder. You must be really bored.

Anyway, when you pull out arguments like "cry more" and "whiny mids" out of your shiny arse, you already lost the fight. And you can make up as many of those whiny threads as you want, just stick to facts. You failed here, time to move on. Go troll somewhere else.

He was taking damage from your bleed, not being attacked by his pet. In the second, he's probably moc'd. You can't even watch your own gifs properly.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:51 AM by teiloh
Saldinna wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:09 AM
You've been playing long enough, haven't you? Without talking anything negative now, Alb is the simplest best realm here on servers.

Is that why Mid outnumbers Alb + Hib combined?
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:00 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:48 AM
He was taking damage from your bleed, not being attacked by his pet. In the second, he's probably moc'd. You can't even watch your own gifs properly.
I have the version with sound, the frore lich wasnt charmed and was attacking him . The sound is pretty loud. 2nd one he purges (I know the sound of a purge) and my melee hit is a miss.It's not MoC, the duration of the mezz is full, also it would have been Purge and MoC, not just MoC , it's obviously only one RA. This is just yesterday, this happens constantly and I'm sure minstrels know it. Flute mezz has to be interrupted in the first second, else it goes through. I knew you'd come up with some crappy excuses if I gave you room for it, and you didn't disappoint.

I appreciate that you're emotionally invested enough to bullshit people on the forums, just take a step back for this one. Us "whiny spoiled mids" and our 9032134241 threads appreciate it.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:00 AM by Forlornhope
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:48 AM
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 12:19 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 1 Jan 2020 10:28 PM
Minstrel flute mez does get interrupted. I don't know what fantasy world you're playing in.

Ah, so you're clueless ... you're here to defend minstrels and you don't know THAT much.

So you want a reliable stun style , instead of a 9 sec, 700 range, 10 sec cooldown insta stun. Aren't you considerate. But I thought your melee is trash ? So maybe melee isn't that trash after all, and definitely not as trash as you'd like people to believe. Why does a disingenuous clown like you come on the forums with this BS, I wonder. You must be really bored.

Anyway, when you pull out arguments like "cry more" and "whiny mids" out of your shiny arse, you already lost the fight. And you can make up as many of those whiny threads as you want, just stick to facts. You failed here, time to move on. Go troll somewhere else.

He was taking damage from your bleed, not being attacked by his pet. In the second, he's probably moc'd. You can't even watch your own gifs properly.

In the first one he clearly hit him with a garotte.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:07 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:51 AM
Is that why Mid outnumbers Alb + Hib combined?

Stuff like this proves you don't have the common sense to look at the big picture, mids this mids that, pretty sure 80% of the people play at least 2 realms if not all 3. So there's no "spoiled whiny mids" or outnumbering, there's just people jumping ship to get easier RP on the other side. So the next time you wonder why Mids are fine with outnumbering the other realms (even though this morning mids had 80 and the other 2 realms had 100+ - check discord if you dont believe), just ask one of your pals that hasnt been active for the past month, or maybe one of those guilds that disappeared to reroll to the EZ side. I don't like it either, but I know who's to blame.

Besides, months ago when mid frontiers were completely red/green , you enjoyed it very much, I'm sure the mids back then didn't quit and kept going, and the balance flipped.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:19 AM by Loki
With sound this time - https://youtu.be/j-HVCJ-Qqvc

Before someone says I did interrupt him, cus he had to mezz twice ... no actually, he panicked so hard that he lost target of me and he had to turn for the 2nd mezz )
Thu 2 Jan 2020 4:44 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:19 AM
With sound this time - https://youtu.be/j-HVCJ-Qqvc

Before someone says I did interrupt him, cus he had to mezz twice ... no actually, he panicked so hard that he lost target of me and he had to turn for the 2nd mezz )

That's YOU attacking HIS pet. Maybe that's why you didn't interrupt him, lmao. Read the log.

And yes, if you attack during the latter 20-40% of a cast the interrupt sometimes won't go through for ALL spells. Welcome to DAOC.

You're talking about what class takes skill and you can't even target right.

No wonder Mids are constantly clamoring for more EZ mode even though they've been overpopulated since release. If Mids spent 1% of the time they did whining about Minstrels and demanding more buffs for their overpowered classes actually practicing and understanding how the game works, they'd be good.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 5:02 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 4:44 AM
You're talking about what class takes skill and you can't even target right.

Why would I target the minstrel 4 feet in front of me, and not his pet whos actually in attack range and might allow me to keep him in combat My god, you're so obviously dishonest it's getting cringey You're gonna teach me about daoc when you say Purge is MoC +Purge and you claim flute mezz can be interrupted , then add it's actually only interruptable early on. Welcome do the forums, where people aggressively contradict themselves and pretend they won.

If they made it dependant on dex , you would be forced to stand still and would be easily interrupted at any point. So again, you whine about something that's an advantage.

You haven't explained why you would want a reliable stun inside a melee line that you called "trash".

You haven't explained why you think playing a certain realm means you think in a certain way, the bigotry that is behind all this rage of yours.

Anyways, I can't believe I spent this much time with a forum troll

I'll end it this way - Minstrel does require skill, like any class, to play it at its full capacity. But an average click and point minstrel can still take advantage of a strong RA tool kit, a strong pet and a nice little wombo-combo CC chain. You don't need to multi task to manage that much. Ask any of the minstrels in Uppland.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:51 AM by teiloh
No one knows when you clipped your video. He could have MOC'd before. And if you think Minstrel flute mez is uninterruptible go ahead and record this happening.

Like I said already, ALL spells will continue casting once the majority of the cast is done and surprise, that includes flute mez.

You also claimed you interrupted the Minstrel and the frore lich made an attack sound, when it's obvious from yourown clip that it was making its sfx from you attacking it and not the Minstrel.

Why do you feel compelled to lie?
Thu 2 Jan 2020 10:39 AM by Nauglamir
Loki wrote: Why would I target the minstrel 4 feet in front of me, and not his pet whos actually in attack range and might allow me to keep him in combat

Cause it doesn't put me into combat while i sos.
Cause you can f8 target only.
Cause you don't event try to open with anything else then garotte.
But it doesn't matter, cause you take 60% of my health with 1 hit, cause of how strong lifebane is.

Btw .. you fought me one single time in a 1 on 1, all the other times you simply added on a fight I already had.
And you managed to get a draw, as we both died. And it was the fight you showed. Which you totally fucked up, basically.
And then you want the other class nerfed?

You can't even judge what really happened and question your own game when you have a video at hand that you recorded yourself, and then you call people liars, dishonest, trolls and whatnot - not realizing the problem here is you. Simply you. When it comes to your own gameplay as well as when it comes to interaction with others.

The only troll here is you, I call you out on that.
Donald, you playin daoc?
Thu 2 Jan 2020 11:14 AM by Lerox
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:00 AM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:48 AM
He was taking damage from your bleed, not being attacked by his pet. In the second, he's probably moc'd. You can't even watch your own gifs properly.
I have the version with sound, the frore lich wasnt charmed and was attacking him . The sound is pretty loud. 2nd one he purges (I know the sound of a purge) and my melee hit is a miss.It's not MoC, the duration of the mezz is full, also it would have been Purge and MoC, not just MoC , it's obviously only one RA. This is just yesterday, this happens constantly and I'm sure minstrels know it. Flute mezz has to be interrupted in the first second, else it goes through. I knew you'd come up with some crappy excuses if I gave you room for it, and you didn't disappoint.

I appreciate that you're emotionally invested enough to bullshit people on the forums, just take a step back for this one. Us "whiny spoiled mids" and our 9032134241 threads appreciate it.

Cool story bro. Watch my video and tell me how the flute mezz is working incorrect?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS89jGI8azE
Thu 2 Jan 2020 1:17 PM by Saldinna
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:51 AM
Saldinna wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:09 AM
You've been playing long enough, haven't you? Without talking anything negative now, Alb is the simplest best realm here on servers.

Is that why Mid outnumbers Alb + Hib combined?

Huh who's going to start with numbers? apart from that, there are more mids like in the rvr, except in the evening the amis come on so it's not at all understand your post haha
Thu 2 Jan 2020 2:48 PM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 10:39 AM
Btw .. you fought me one single time in a 1 on 1, all the other times you simply added on a fight I already had.

You got a draw when in this fight you fked up royally , from start to finish . Just because of the pet. I didn't "open" with garrote, I PA'ed . I dont need to target you when you're far and pet is close You DO stay in combat when you SoS if you keep staying close to me funny how you show what a scrub you are with these fail interpretations of what was obviously going on. And you don't need to say the hp you're left at when that lich was slapping you around the whole time.

And I will always add "solo" minstrels, you add like white on rice when you see a 1v1. There are no solo minstrels on this server, you cant help yourself but be arrogant when you know you can get out instantly. You sit on the wolf hill at Bled docks with a red Finliath telling people "just kill the pet brah" when you know perfectly well you can grab an orange wolf right after and there's nothing to prevent you from doing it.

Fake bullshit, you're all spreading it pretending you're weak and everything you have is useless because you want it to stay that way. You drool at skalds losing determination because then you could keep 2 in combat and run around. With a straight face you're telling me every class well played but solo casters is a problem to minstrels, lmao . I'm crying for you, what a tough life.

Allegedly adults, lying on the forums and patting themselves on the back, "we're good players , we click a lot, no suh we dont use no macros !"

Thanks for the good laughs
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:28 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:51 AM
He could have MOC'd before.
No , he didn't you're just full of it. Keep ignoring everything else I called you out on. Maybe use your inner voice, you already embarrasses yourself enough .
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:55 PM by Nauglamir
Fake bullshit, you're all spreading it pretending you're weak and everything you have is useless because you want it to stay that way. You drool at skalds losing determination because then you could keep 2 in combat and run around. With a straight face you're telling me every class well played but solo casters is a problem to minstrels, lmao . I'm crying for you, what a tough life.

I'm not saying I'm weak, I'm not saying everything I have is useless - what the hell is wrong with your reading, mate. Honestly. You can't read a single paragraph and not get the content wrong, your head messes everything up. I have to do with people not being able to grasp written text on a daily basis, but you are on a whole different level. I'm saying many classes can beat Minstrels, without nerfing them. I also never generally stated to "just kill the pet brah" - that was true for the original post, where the topic was an ellyl sage.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 4:06 PM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:55 PM
I'm not saying I'm weak, I'm not saying everything I have is useless
bro, just read everything again and stfu ... you never said you never said, ok so then do you agree or disagree with what your buddy teiloh here says ? I didn't see you adress any of his points ? Supposedly you're playing a minstrel, is everything like he says it is ? Cus if you comment right after him and pick on some fucking word I said, I'm gonna largely assume you have no problem with the description of the class. It's how conversations work, you should get out more . You're acting like I'm making stuff up out of the blue and not telling you what was said this far about the class. Grow some balls and have your own opinion, and dont wait for others to jump in to build up some courage.

This is a forum, and we were talking about pet nerf initially and after a few exchanges we got to this. You really haven't added anything of value or explained why you disagree, other that fantasy changes or mockery. You brought the "a good hamburger can kill a minstrel. a sturdy rock can kill a minstrel. " speech and topped it off with "y u add" and your fellow minstrel here teiloh explained why all the pros are actually cons, which is utter nonsense. And you all agreed everyone should play a minstrel (which is the direction where we're heading tbh). Got anything of value, anything factual to say ? Or you're just gonna line up behind teiloh's efficient "cry more" ?
Thu 2 Jan 2020 4:33 PM by Nauglamir
I've said everything that's of importance in the matter of nerfing orange+ con pets being carried around by a minstrel, please reread and try to comprehend.

Apart from that, my opinion is :

- you can't comprehend written text, at all
- you play a very strong class
- at times, you loose against minstrels
- therefore, you think minstrels need to be added
- apart from that, you think minstrels need to be nerfed, because wtf, you lost
Thu 2 Jan 2020 4:42 PM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 4:33 PM
- you can't comprehend written text, at all

figured as much, can't explain anything for shiet, will not stop from insults and mockery ... coward ingame, coward on forums
Thu 2 Jan 2020 4:45 PM by Nauglamir
S the beauty of the written word, everyone sensible can see what I'm talking about.
You, not, obviously.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 5:37 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 3:28 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:51 AM
He could have MOC'd before.
No , he didn't you're just full of it. Keep ignoring everything else I called you out on. Maybe use your inner voice, you already embarrasses yourself enough .

Like I said, why did you LIE about the frore attacking the Minstrel, to prove your LAUGHABLE claim that Minstrel mez cannot be interrupted?
Thu 2 Jan 2020 5:39 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 4:06 PM
why all the pros are actually cons, which is utter nonsense.

Learn how to read. Your much vaunted laundry list of everything a Minstrel can do is not an argument. You can make such idiotic lists for any class.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 5:40 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 5:39 PM
You can make such idiotic lists for any class.
Bro, you're the master of idiotic lists. You've earned it
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:04 PM by Lerox
@Loki I read all your single posts and I am not here to discuss with you because it seems impossible but I quoted few passages from you and I want to bring some legit information.

First of all I want to say that it is true that the minstrel might be OP in solo if played properly and will dominate average players but this game is not designed to play solo only. Changes which will affect solo players will also affect smallman, 8v8 and zerg (prolly zerg not so much).
I can understand why especially solos might have something against it but if you can't beat a minstrel alone maybe bring 2?
Speaking for myself I like the competition so should other minstrels too.



A lot of stuff is wrong about pets and minstrels know it, thats why "they wont say anything negative" about it. There's changes to be made that do not affect small man/8v8, like having a free demez or a free unroot because of your pet.
"Free" demezz and derrot is working as intended so what is wrong with it? If you think it is too strong then don't say it is wrong.
Additionally it would affect 8v8 a lot if a minstrel won't be able to do that.
Please tell me other things which are "wrong" but with proof please and not your personal opinion.


The only skill a minstrel needs, beyond pet control, is not overcommitting to a fight that he's actually losing.
Basically correct besides against Skald, Champion, Sins, BD, SM, .... Of course the Minstrel can SOS away if SOS is ready but that is his realm ability.
You might disagree and it is true that some average player can't beat the minstrel but skilled people can do it.


... maybe you can agree with me that pets should not behave in such way where releasing it benefits the minstrel. Sadly, devs have either not found a way to fix that or do not care.
No fix needed because it is working as intended.


I'm more annoyed by the fact that not even a taunting style can swing the aggro of some pets, the stallion being the most common. There's an aggro value in there that needs to be minimized.
This might have to be tested in some way or a staff can say anything how confusion and taunt is working on charmed pets.


As I said, minstrels can only be killed by overcommitting to a fight.
Wrong.


Worst melee in the game ? I've seen minstrels constantly go toe to toe with tanks and hybrids. It's not like styles don't land, and together with DD procs and pet, you outdamage everyone except maybe a heavy debuffer like champ, or a lucky savage....
Minstrel is an okayish melee. Minstrels go into melee because there are many solos around who don't play as good as to beat a minstrel.
If people are too lazy to switch from 2-hand to 1-hand with shield it is their fault.
Few pictures about block, parry and evade rate against few classes. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EglMjRT_kVBrgtKncrLbSbobt7Xmg7TP


Flute mezz has to be interrupted in the first second, else it goes through.
Props you have brought "proof" but wrong! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS89jGI8azE
It could feel like that due to the latency from the server.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:18 PM by Killaloth
Nauglamir wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:07 PM
A BD that knows what he is doing can basically not loose.
Properly played Skalds with equal RR (being Slash and Kasimier, basically) are incredibly hard, not allowing for any mistake - and even if there are none, it's a 50/50 chance at max.
Properly played Shadowblade/Nightshade, knowing when to purge and how to switch weapons is very hard.
Properly played SM is extremely hard.
Properly played Hunter would be hard, have not met one.
Thane that knows how to use his tools is extremely hard.
Every properly played shieldtank is extremely hard.
Shamans that are properly played are hard.
Champions are a nightmare.
Every caster that runs solo is a free kill.

https://youtu.be/lUGo7y-jFUA

The only reason this mini loses to BDs and has a hard time against skalds is the crappy tournament pet. Of course a good skald and BD is still a strong opponent but you made that list way too long.

Classes are not studied for 1vs1. The only way you can balance solo fights without unbalancing 8man fights is to make RAs and abilities work differently if you're solo or in a group.

So a solo mini can't release his pet to break ccs, a solo Champ/Thane ST does not reset stun immunity, a solo BD uses 2x the mana, a solo SM pet intercepts less etc.

I don't know if this is even doable.

Some solo classes just have easier rps, deal with it. If you're after 100% fair fights play chess and enjoy going nuts coz you've got nothing but yourself to blame when you lose.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:23 PM by teiloh
Loki is a gishgalloping, entitled, Mid perma-whiner and their kind are just a waste of time to engage with unless you want to be amused or expose them for what they are.

It's people like him that got Midgard EZmoded into perma overpop on Phoenix
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:29 PM by Loki
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:04 PM
It could feel like that due to the latency from the server.

I appreciate the convo, most of your replies are "working as intended". Anything can be subject to change, thats not a reason. I said and I repeat it, some of these mechanics need to be looked at. The fact that you can chain stun into mezz at your will, while denying anyone the option for you or your pet to be mezzed/rooted seems arbitrary.

And yes, the latency of the server. I do not trust the server to calculate any action under a second, it's unreliable and proven over and over since launch. Devs know it but will never openly admit it, because on a zerg level its not noticeable. Your proof is vs mobs in an empty area, I'm showing actual fights. You know as well as I do, if the cast would be based on dex like any caster, like someone suggested previously which prompted me to talk about this aspect, it would be interruptable at any point and not able to cast in motion.

I just wish, when someone drops so much bullshit like teiloh, that a proper minstrel would come in here and argue that some of the points really aren't like that. I know it, you know it. This is a classic based server, I'm being told by a minstrel with purge/sos/IP/insta stun/mezz/red pet that SBs are a strong class. I'm fighting minstrels from other classes too, I dont even play SB anymore. The minstrels in this thread are looking for any detail to discredit what I have to say, instead of having an honest opinion.

I doubt anyone would crucify you if you actually disagreed with "pets have been nerfed into the ground". It's an absolute idiotic statement, but people let it fly cus eh, its us vs them right ?

Oh nvm, you actually upvoted the post of that moron insulting me again. Another hypocrite lmao !
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:42 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:23 PM
Loki is a gishgalloping, entitled, Mid perma-whiner and their kind are just a waste of time

It's 2020 and your narrow-mindedness is from the middle ages , grow up
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:44 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:29 PM
I'm being told by a minstrel with purge/sos/IP/insta stun/mezz/red pet that SBs are a strong class. I'm fighting minstrels from other classes too, I dont even play SB anymore. The minstrels in this thread are looking for any detail to discredit what I have to say, instead of having an honest opinion.

Oh poor SBs, all you have is Purge/Vanish/Lifebane/Con Debuff/Perma Snare/1.x+ GR styles/2.2 Spec Points/Dual Wield/Evade 7/Disease/2 Handers/500-600 damage Openers/Spammable Anytime Snare

Cry me a river.

The fact that you can chain stun into mezz

More fictional abilities? Only classes with ST can chain stun
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:45 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:44 PM
2 Handers/500-600 damage Openers

I rest my case this clown is just here to rage and cry about how overpopulated Mid is lmao
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:49 PM by Killaloth
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:29 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:04 PM
It could feel like that due to the latency from the server.

I appreciate the convo, most of your replies are "working as intended". Anything can be subject to change, thats not a reason. I said and I repeat it, some of these mechanics need to be looked at. The fact that you can chain stun into mezz at your will, while denying anyone the option for you or your pet to be mezzed/rooted seems arbitrary.

And yes, the latency of the server. I do not trust the server to calculate any action under a second, it's unreliable and proven over and over since launch. Devs know it but will never openly admit it, because on a zerg level its not noticeable. Your proof is vs mobs in an empty area, I'm showing actual fights. You know as well as I do, if the cast would be based on dex like any caster, like someone suggested previously which prompted me to talk about this aspect, it would be interruptable at any point and not able to cast in motion.

I just wish, when someone drops so much bullshit like teiloh, that a proper minstrel would come in here and argue that some of the points really aren't like that. I know it, you know it. This is a classic based server, I'm being told by a minstrel with purge/sos/IP/insta stun/mezz/red pet that SBs are a strong class. I'm fighting minstrels from other classes too, I dont even play SB anymore. The minstrels in this thread are looking for any detail to discredit what I have to say, instead of having an honest opinion.

I doubt anyone would crucify you if you actually disagreed with "pets have been nerfed into the ground". It's an absolute idiotic statement, but people let it fly cus eh, its us vs them right ?

Oh nvm, you actually upvoted the post of that moron insulting me again. Another hypocrite lmao !

Then be specific and think/ask for a change that would balance 1vs1 without affecting 8man rvr, don't get lost with the flame lol.

"purge/sos/IP/insta stun/mezz/red pet" and u forgot pet release > deroot/demezz.

The only thing I can think of is weaker pets that would maybe allow you to.. run to the closest tower/keep as the result on the long run would still be the same (see video I posted). If you can come up with something better go for it.

Solo minis are stronger than most solo classes, that's how it has been for ages.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:13 PM by Lerox
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:29 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:04 PM
It could feel like that due to the latency from the server.

I appreciate the convo, most of your replies are "working as intended". Anything can be subject to change, thats not a reason. I said and I repeat it, some of these mechanics need to be looked at. The fact that you can chain stun into mezz at your will, while denying anyone the option for you or your pet to be mezzed/rooted seems arbitrary.

And yes, the latency of the server. I do not trust the server to calculate any action under a second, it's unreliable and proven over and over since launch. Devs know it but will never openly admit it, because on a zerg level its not noticeable.

I just wish, when someone drops so much bullshit like teiloh, that a proper minstrel would come in here and argue that some of the points really aren't like that. I know it, you know it.

Oh nvm, you actually upvoted the post of that moron insulting me again. Another hypocrite lmao !

I upvoted his post because he is correct that you might spread half-truths. So I do not agree with him fully and I am not here to disprove statements from teiloh or anyone else because I like to bring proofs to what I say so I might have a hard time to do that.

My replies were "working as intended" because in you statements it sounds like you say it is wrong and not like it should be in the game. Maybe I am too sensitive.

The thing with instant stun and the mezz is a different thing. I get want you mean but like @Killaloth stated before it might be useful if changes for solos only would be possible.

To the latency point I have to say that I don't like it that you did not even gave some proof of it. If you say that it is proven please show us something so that we can give that to the devs. That would help a lot because just some random statement won't get us any further. If I find time I will do a video with real conditions.


You know as well as I do, if the cast would be based on dex like any caster, like someone suggested previously which prompted me to talk about this aspect, it would be interruptable at any point and not able to cast in motion.
If the flute mezz would be based on dex the minstrel would be able to get the flute mezz out in 2 seconds instead of firm 3 seconds.get the mezz out in 2 seconds.
A caster spell can be interrupted too until it gets interrupted before 50% of his cast time.
If I understand correct you want the flute mezz only able to do if the minstrel does not walk? That would change things and make it harder for minstrel to get the mezz out for sure but it would affect non-solo a lot; my opinion.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:14 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:45 PM
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Says the mid crying about Minstrels for the last 20 years
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:16 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:14 PM
Loki wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 6:45 PM
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Says the mid crying about Minstrels for the last 20 years

Imagine being as mentally challenged as this guy not only he calls me mid as if that puts me in a box or something, he claims I have been crying for 20 years. How does one get this dumb ?
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:39 PM by Wolfir666
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:13 PM
If I understand correct you want the flute mezz only able to do if the minstrel does not walk? That would change things and make it harder for minstrel to get the mezz out for sure but it would affect non-solo a lot; my opinion.

Sure about that? To be honest I always thought the main AE-mezz of albs comes with the boltrange quickcast sorc mezz and minstrel ae is just the second choice anyways for that matter if there's a sorc in the group.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:42 PM by Lerox
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:39 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:13 PM
If I understand correct you want the flute mezz only able to do if the minstrel does not walk? That would change things and make it harder for minstrel to get the mezz out for sure but it would affect non-solo a lot; my opinion.

Sure about that? To be honest I always thought the main AE-mezz of albs comes with the boltrange quickcast sorc mezz and minstrel ae is just the second choice anyways for that matter if there's a sorc in the group.
Loki is suggest to change it that way if I understood correct.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:44 PM by Wolfir666
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:42 PM
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:39 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:13 PM
If I understand correct you want the flute mezz only able to do if the minstrel does not walk? That would change things and make it harder for minstrel to get the mezz out for sure but it would affect non-solo a lot; my opinion.

Sure about that? To be honest I always thought the main AE-mezz of albs comes with the boltrange quickcast sorc mezz and minstrel ae is just the second choice anyways for that matter if there's a sorc in the group.
Loki is suggest to change it that way if I understood correct.

But isn't it already like that?
I mean i can't believe an alb group wants the slow casting minstrel AE to overwrite the quickcast sorc mezz
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:51 PM by Lerox
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:44 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:42 PM
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:39 PM
Sure about that? To be honest I always thought the main AE-mezz of albs comes with the boltrange quickcast sorc mezz and minstrel ae is just the second choice anyways for that matter if there's a sorc in the group.
Loki is suggest to change it that way if I understood correct.

But isn't it already like that?
I mean i can't believe an alb group wants the slow casting minstrel AE to overwrite the quickcast sorc mezz

The flute mezz is possible to cast while walking and the aoe is a cast so it requires to stand still.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 8:05 PM by Wolfir666
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:51 PM
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:44 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:42 PM
Loki is suggest to change it that way if I understood correct.

But isn't it already like that?
I mean i can't believe an alb group wants the slow casting minstrel AE to overwrite the quickcast sorc mezz

The flute mezz is possible to cast while walking and the aoe is a cast so it requires to stand still.

Yes.. great to have a class that can cast an ae mezz without standing still isnt it 😁
But still the duration and range of sorc is way better with quickcast ae mezz.
So sorry but I'd think in groups you prefer a sorc mezz over a minstrel mezz except its about rupting only.
And if you think of minstrel as a stealther that can climb walls and stun and has speed 5 and having a 30sec ae mezz that he can even cast while running around. .. the pets are just the cherry on top , of course minstrel as a class is not just slightly over the top in smallman or stealthergroups
Thu 2 Jan 2020 8:11 PM by Lerox
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 8:05 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:51 PM
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:44 PM
But isn't it already like that?
I mean i can't believe an alb group wants the slow casting minstrel AE to overwrite the quickcast sorc mezz

The flute mezz is possible to cast while walking and the aoe is a cast so it requires to stand still.

Yes.. great to have a class that can cast an ae mezz without standing still isnt it 😁
But still the duration and range of sorc is way better with quickcast ae mezz.
So sorry but I'd think in groups you prefer a sorc mezz over a minstrel mezz except its about rupting only.
And if you think of minstrel as a stealther that can climb walls and stun and has speed 5 and having a 30sec ae mezz that he can even cast while running around. .. the pets are just the cherry on top , of course minstrel as a class is not just slightly over the top in smallman or stealthergroups

Oh I guess you might have missunderstood something. If I understood correct it was said that the flute single mezz should be changed to make it only able to cast while standing still but therefor based on dex so it would be quicker.
Having an AOE mezz while walking on minstrel would be too OP for sure.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 8:22 PM by Wolfir666
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 8:11 PM
Oh I guess you might have missunderstood something. If I understood correct it was said that the flute single mezz should be changed to make it only able to cast while standing still but therefor based on dex so it would be quicker.
Having an AOE mezz while walking on minstrel would be too OP for sure.

Ah okay, when it was said flute mezz i thought the AE was meant and not that you were talking about two different Mezzes, sry my fault.
But then to be honest i really don't think that it would affect group-play too much, if the single-mezz was changed like that, only really smallman or solo.
In anything larger than solo you'd for sure let the Sorc do the Mezzing and the Minstrel only do the rupting (and with DDs, Pet, Stun and Melee-weapon id think it can rupt a lot at the same time).
Personally i just think that Minstrel is one of these classes, that only shines in solo- or smallman/stealther-RvR.. as it can do basically everything without having to decide between certain lines too much (except maybe deciding between higher stealth or higher weaponskill)
But there i still think it's over the top with its abilities.
I know, that all the Speed-classes of the different realms are kinda unique in itself, but somehow none of them can be as nasty in a small encounter like a Minstrel.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 9:07 PM by Lerox
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 8:22 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 8:11 PM
Oh I guess you might have missunderstood something. If I understood correct it was said that the flute single mezz should be changed to make it only able to cast while standing still but therefor based on dex so it would be quicker.
Having an AOE mezz while walking on minstrel would be too OP for sure.

Ah okay, when it was said flute mezz i thought the AE was meant and not that you were talking about two different Mezzes, sry my fault.
But then to be honest i really don't think that it would affect group-play too much, if the single-mezz was changed like that, only really smallman or solo.
In anything larger than solo you'd for sure let the Sorc do the Mezzing and the Minstrel only do the rupting (and with DDs, Pet, Stun and Melee-weapon id think it can rupt a lot at the same time).
Personally i just think that Minstrel is one of these classes, that only shines in solo- or smallman/stealther-RvR.. as it can do basically everything without having to decide between certain lines too much (except maybe deciding between higher stealth or higher weaponskill)
But there i still think it's over the top with its abilities.
I know, that all the Speed-classes of the different realms are kinda unique in itself, but somehow none of them can be as nasty in a small encounter like a Minstrel.

I get what you say and I have to disagree that it won't affect group play at least it would make a difference in 8v8 but I might be biased due to playing 8v8 mostly.
But maybe it is spicing things up only.
Thu 2 Jan 2020 9:21 PM by teiloh
Wolfir666 wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:39 PM
Lerox wrote:
Thu 2 Jan 2020 7:13 PM
If I understand correct you want the flute mezz only able to do if the minstrel does not walk? That would change things and make it harder for minstrel to get the mezz out for sure but it would affect non-solo a lot; my opinion.

Sure about that? To be honest I always thought the main AE-mezz of albs comes with the boltrange quickcast sorc mezz and minstrel ae is just the second choice anyways for that matter if there's a sorc in the group.

Quickcast has a hard cast time of 2.0s. No Sorc QCs on inc.
Fri 3 Jan 2020 12:42 AM by Azuell
I feel dumber for having read most of this thread.

I do think the ability to de-mezz and de-root your pet and yourself is pretty lame but luckily I don't have to face minstrels when I occasionally solo on my sorc.

I fought a minstrel a few times during the last event though and it didn't seem like there was any way for me to possibly beat him. My cc was worthless and even when I mocced he just ran away until it wore off. Is possible to beat a minstrel as a solo caster if they aren't just complete garbage?
Fri 3 Jan 2020 1:48 AM by teiloh
Azuell wrote:
Fri 3 Jan 2020 12:42 AM
I fought a minstrel a few times during the last event though and it didn't seem like there was any way for me to possibly beat him. My cc was worthless and even when I mocced he just ran away until it wore off. Is possible to beat a minstrel as a solo caster if they aren't just complete garbage?

If you're a BD or a SM or possibly a Ment with a pet.

Or an Eld and you're really fast with NS/Stuns and get a good hit.

A Chanter that can manage a to get its pet's snares off can also force a stalemate, just be ready to cast another pet.
Fri 3 Jan 2020 3:44 AM by gotwqqd
Chain stun mezz

I believe he means that stun and mezz are chained together

Not multiple stuns then mezzo
Sun 12 Jan 2020 3:50 PM by Siouxsie
teiloh wrote:
Fri 3 Jan 2020 1:48 AM
If you're a BD or a SM or possibly a Ment with a pet.

Incorrect. Minstrel will aoe mezz pets and BD is sitting duck. Or, Minstrel will just SOS away like a coward.
Sun 12 Jan 2020 5:24 PM by pollojack
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 12 Jan 2020 3:50 PM
teiloh wrote:
Fri 3 Jan 2020 1:48 AM
If you're a BD or a SM or possibly a Ment with a pet.

Incorrect. Minstrel will aoe mezz pets and BD is sitting duck. Or, Minstrel will just SOS away like a coward.

Just release the pets, that unmeses them. /s

Seriously though, a minst shouldn't be getting an aoe mes off on a bd. That is a lot of situational unawareness to allow a 1500 range 2-4 sec cast from a non moving player.
Sun 12 Jan 2020 6:30 PM by Horus
Minstrels have always been the strongest 1 on 1 class. No reason for them to ever lose a solo fight. Unless they make a mistake. Just the way it has always been.

How to change that? I dunno...I would say make it impossible to have a red pet and speed song at the same time?
Sun 12 Jan 2020 10:45 PM by jk123
The recent buff to pet travel
and the way the devs have staffed the whole fz with ideal pet-to-go spots
has drastically enhanced the availability of overpowered pets for minstrels.

In the history of daoc it was most of the time a big effort for the ambitioned pet-class player
to get that super-overpowered pet and take it to battle.

Now it ain't anymore.
Port Keep x, where there is a spot right next to it,
charm pet, take a boat, fight, collect rps.
Sick
Mon 13 Jan 2020 1:20 PM by Azrael
jk123 wrote:
Sun 12 Jan 2020 10:45 PM
The recent buff to pet travel
and the way the devs have staffed the whole fz with ideal pet-to-go spots

Could you please elaborate and clear things up?
Which recent buffs you are talking about and which addiotional pets did they implemented? Afaik they nerfed some style pets (or removed them at all) so no idea what you talking about. Or did you just make up things?
Tue 14 Jan 2020 2:50 AM by pollojack
Azrael wrote:
Mon 13 Jan 2020 1:20 PM
jk123 wrote:
Sun 12 Jan 2020 10:45 PM
The recent buff to pet travel
and the way the devs have staffed the whole fz with ideal pet-to-go spots

Could you please elaborate and clear things up?
Which recent buffs you are talking about and which addiotional pets did they implemented? Afaik they nerfed some style pets (or removed them at all) so no idea what you talking about. Or did you just make up things?

They did buff pet speed to match the charmers speed. Some pets like nightmares and essence shredders always have their speed though which makes it ridiculous in DF.
Tue 14 Jan 2020 9:08 PM by Nezoic
I'm fine with them, just allow all other pet class.... to charm purple pets and have those pets break them out of any CC.... problem solved?
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:04 AM by teiloh
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 12 Jan 2020 3:50 PM
teiloh wrote:
Fri 3 Jan 2020 1:48 AM
If you're a BD or a SM or possibly a Ment with a pet.

Incorrect. Minstrel will aoe mezz pets and BD is sitting duck. Or, Minstrel will just SOS away like a coward.

You'd have to be dumber than a bag of shit to not be able to interrupt a 5s cast Minstrel mez
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:05 AM by teiloh
Nezoic wrote:
Tue 14 Jan 2020 9:08 PM
I'm fine with them, just allow all other pet class.... to charm purple pets and have those pets break them out of any CC.... problem solved?

Sure, give Minstrels 500+ DPS from range then
Thu 16 Jan 2020 12:53 PM by daytonchambers
teiloh wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:04 AM
You'd have to be dumber than a bag of shit to not be able to interrupt a 5s cast Minstrel mez


That's assuming you SEE the minstrel to interrupt them in the first place. It's not hard to flank someone when you have speed 6, and not everyone mouse-pans constantly like a paranoid tweaker.
Thu 16 Jan 2020 1:09 PM by daytonchambers
teiloh wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:05 AM
Nezoic wrote:
Tue 14 Jan 2020 9:08 PM
I'm fine with them, just allow all other pet class.... to charm purple pets and have those pets break them out of any CC.... problem solved?

Sure, give Minstrels 500+ DPS from range then


Mincers can double shout-nuke you in under a second for almost 400 damage, on top of their melee and what the pet hits you for. So, technically, they already do have around 500+ DPS burst.

And chain armor, and speed 6, and a stackable ablative, and an instant stun, and a mez that can be cast on the move, and an AoE mez, plus power and health regen chants to top off quickly between fights. Oh, and they can be fucking invisible if they want to while they climb keep walls.

That's all on top of access to a red con+ pet. It's always been a bullshit class, the last thing they need is more stuff.
Thu 16 Jan 2020 2:14 PM by Enyore
The red barguest pets and orange sage pets are completely shit.... it has completely fucked over the solo play on this server.
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:20 PM by Loki
Frost Stallion procs for close to 200, show me a proc like that on any weapon.
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:29 PM by Siouxsie
daytonchambers wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 12:53 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:04 AM
You'd have to be dumber than a bag of shit to not be able to interrupt a 5s cast Minstrel mez


That's assuming you SEE the minstrel to interrupt them in the first place. It's not hard to flank someone when you have speed 6, and not everyone mouse-pans constantly like a paranoid tweaker.

PRECISELY.
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:30 PM by Siouxsie
Loki wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:20 PM
Frost Stallion procs for close to 200, show me a proc like that on any weapon.

Ellyl Champ hits for 233.
Ellyl Sage pet heals for 250.

BD pets don't even heal for 250 at a time.

Greatly imbalanced, however no Phoenix GM or Dev has probably bothered to read this thread and it's full of lovely people (aka pls watch your language. Greetings Uthred) defending Minstrels... so it'll probably never get resolved.
Thu 16 Jan 2020 6:45 PM by Amser
Siouxsie wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:30 PM
Ellyl Champ hits for 233.
Ellyl Sage pet heals for 250.

BD pets don't even heal for 250 at a time.

Greatly imbalanced, however no Phoenix GM or Dev has probably bothered to read this thread and it's full of lovely people (aka pls watch your language. Greetings Uthred) defending Minstrels... so it'll probably never get resolved.

BD's also have 4 pets to pick and choose from. BD pets are grey con/green con/blue con, not orange con to a lvl 50 like an Ellyl.
Not sure this should be an argument, as BD's are just as broken here if looking at the greater meta.

(I'm not defending minstrel's pets by any means, but I don't see this particular argument as a good one)
Thu 16 Jan 2020 6:52 PM by Amser
Siouxsie wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:29 PM
daytonchambers wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 12:53 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:04 AM
You'd have to be dumber than a bag of shit to not be able to interrupt a 5s cast Minstrel mez


That's assuming you SEE the minstrel to interrupt them in the first place. It's not hard to flank someone when you have speed 6, and not everyone mouse-pans constantly like a paranoid tweaker.

PRECISELY.

This would go for any class moving at speed 6. Would you rather the minstrel has speed 6 and insta mez like the skald and bard?
Thu 16 Jan 2020 10:49 PM by daytonchambers
Amser wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 6:52 PM
This would go for any class moving at speed 6. Would you rather the minstrel has speed 6 and insta mez like the skald and bard?


First off they can, and quite often do, insta stun to double-shout nuke, then flute mez. This can all be done on the move, not much different than what a skald can do.

And then you go and mention bard. See many solo bards around? Yeah, me neither. So bringing them up here is pretty stupid on your part.

And neither the skald nor the bard is moving at speed 6 dragging a freaking red con pet along with them, which is what this whole discussion is about in the first place.
Fri 17 Jan 2020 1:02 AM by gromet12
Amser wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 6:52 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:29 PM
daytonchambers wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 12:53 PM
That's assuming you SEE the minstrel to interrupt them in the first place. It's not hard to flank someone when you have speed 6, and not everyone mouse-pans constantly like a paranoid tweaker.

PRECISELY.

This would go for any class moving at speed 6. Would you rather the minstrel has speed 6 and insta mez like the skald and bard?

You want a 10M timer?
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:23 AM by Lipsi
I don't like to compare to live because here is a different server, different rulesets, but on live some of the changes we could see impact the minstrel were :

- Mentalist : got remove mezz level reduced to 19 -> allowing spec light for pulse charm level as effective as minstrel / got pulse physical ablative (instant)
- Minstrel : got nothing


- Bard : got DD delve value increased / got a 2d DD to be on par with others
- Minstrel : got nothing


Not to point a "nerf" that minstrels should get, but some balancing that has been thought necessary to other classes for competing in the same skills
May be this is just a coincidence but mentalist and bard are also the 2 hibs getting confusion spell (broken spell - see my post above in this topic) that was intended as a counterspell to ennemy pets/minstrel's charm.
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:00 PM by Isavyr
Siouxsie wrote:
Sat 21 Dec 2019 8:55 AM
Ellyl Champion hits for 230
Ellyl Sage nukes you with fireball AND heals the damn minstrel.

I had a RR2 minstrel beat me down even after using Purge, IP4, legion, and pots.. and they still didn't die.
This is totally unacceptable. Nerf the minstrel pets so they can't heal for as much or hit as hard. This is completely broken.
Also, if they are in combat they shouldn't be allowed to recast charm.

This is what is unique about the class and fun for the Minstrel player--every class should be fun.

The problem isn't the pet in itself, but the fact the Minstrel pet breaks normal game mechanics by releasing their pet, it drops the CC (and retains immunity). So effectively, both the minstrel and the pet are immune to roots and mezz. This is bad balance and very toxic to gameplay--there's no counter.

I'm OK with mentalist/minstrel breaking their personal CC by releasing the pet; there is a cost, after all--the pet must often lose its offensive position in order to remove the CC from the minstrel/mentalist, and in addition it will do damage--the better the pet, the more damage. I'm not OK with the pet breaking its own CC and becoming immune--it's totally illogical and has no counterplay.
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:29 PM by Cadebrennus
Siouxsie wrote:
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:05 PM
Isavyr wrote:
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:00 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Sat 21 Dec 2019 8:55 AM
Ellyl Champion hits for 230
Ellyl Sage nukes you with fireball AND heals the damn minstrel.

I had a RR2 minstrel beat me down even after using Purge, IP4, legion, and pots.. and they still didn't die.
This is totally unacceptable. Nerf the minstrel pets so they can't heal for as much or hit as hard. This is completely broken.
Also, if they are in combat they shouldn't be allowed to recast charm.

This is what is unique about the class and fun for the Minstrel player--every class should be fun.

The problem isn't the pet in itself, but the fact the Minstrel pet breaks normal game mechanics by releasing their pet, it drops the CC (and retains immunity). So effectively, both the minstrel and the pet are immune to roots and mezz. This is bad balance and very toxic to gameplay--there's no counter.

I'm OK with mentalist/minstrel breaking their personal CC by releasing the pet; there is a cost, after all--the pet must often lose its offensive position in order to remove the CC from the minstrel/mentalist, and in addition it will do damage--the better the pet, the more damage. I'm not OK with the pet breaking its own CC and becoming immune--it's totally illogical and has no counterplay.

The mechanic needs fixing. If a pet is mezzed, rooted, stunned, you shouldn't be able to release it to get rid of that effect.
Likewise if you are mezzed or rooted, you should not be able to release the pet to have it attack you. The pet should be set to passive when it's released so it doesn't attack anyone until it walks back to its normal spot.

That will solve a lot of these issues. Also, halving the damage/heal (delve) of the pet when charmed will also help. The pet should also have a capped number of hitpoints. BD and Hunter pets don't have a ton of hitpoints, a charmed pet shouldn't either! Barguest with 5000 hitpoints that the minstrel will just sic on you and run away like a pansy (most times).

I'd like to see the following: if someone loses control of a pet it stays aggressive against them and can't be charmed by them again, for something like 30 or 60 seconds.
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:38 PM by Isavyr
Siouxsie wrote:
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:05 PM
The mechanic needs fixing. If a pet is mezzed, rooted, stunned, you shouldn't be able to release it to get rid of that effect.
Likewise if you are mezzed or rooted, you should not be able to release the pet to have it attack you. The pet should be set to passive when it's released so it doesn't attack anyone until it walks back to its normal spot.

That will solve a lot of these issues. Also, halving the damage/heal (delve) of the pet when charmed will also help. The pet should also have a capped number of hitpoints. BD and Hunter pets don't have a ton of hitpoints, a charmed pet shouldn't either! Barguest with 5000 hitpoints that the minstrel will just sic on you and run away like a pansy (most times).

Having played all pet classes, I can say that it would be a terrible shame to remove mentalist/minstrels ability to break their personal CC. It has an element of skill and balance. The problem is with the pet being immunized to CC by releasing it--it should stay in CC, charmed or not.

Similarly, I'm against SMs having their pet intercepted nerfed because while it is strong, it is unique and a core part of the class. We should keep uniqueness where it has counterplay and isn't broken, and I don't think releasing the pet to attack the owner qualifies as either.

I do think the 5000 hitpoints is excessive, but I'd still like the charming classes to keep hard-hitting, tougher-than-usual pets.
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:19 PM by Lerox
Isavyr wrote:
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:38 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:05 PM
The mechanic needs fixing. If a pet is mezzed, rooted, stunned, you shouldn't be able to release it to get rid of that effect.
Likewise if you are mezzed or rooted, you should not be able to release the pet to have it attack you. The pet should be set to passive when it's released so it doesn't attack anyone until it walks back to its normal spot.

That will solve a lot of these issues. Also, halving the damage/heal (delve) of the pet when charmed will also help. The pet should also have a capped number of hitpoints. BD and Hunter pets don't have a ton of hitpoints, a charmed pet shouldn't either! Barguest with 5000 hitpoints that the minstrel will just sic on you and run away like a pansy (most times).

Having played all pet classes, I can say that it would be a terrible shame to remove mentalist/minstrels ability to break their personal CC. It has an element of skill and balance. The problem is with the pet being immunized to CC by releasing it--it should stay in CC, charmed or not.

Similarly, I'm against SMs having their pet intercepted nerfed because while it is strong, it is unique and a core part of the class. We should keep uniqueness where it has counterplay and isn't broken, and I don't think releasing the pet to attack the owner qualifies as either.

I do think the 5000 hitpoints is excessive, but I'd still like the charming classes to keep hard-hitting, tougher-than-usual pets.

First of all I do not want to pretend that the mechanics of the minstrel are not special or unfair in solo/smallman but I like to clarify rumours which are definitely wrong. In this thread there are so many false/non-proven/whatever statements about the minstrel and few of you make it the super op god class which does not has his right to exist like it is right now. So I tend to correct people here to proof them wrong.

No idea where you get that information from but pets with 5k health?
Even if I was sure that pets with the same level have the same HP or almost the same HP I did some testing with different pets.
The highest Barguest available has roundabout 2800HP so 2200HP short from 5000HP.

The pictures/calculations show the whole damage the pet taken till it got killed by a mob. I did the test with more mobs so that people can't say the HP differs much or maybe not at all from mob to mob.

Barguest Level 58 about 2800HP
http://laxeos.de/i/pt861.png
137+167*16 = 2809

Barguest Level 56 about 2600HP
http://laxeos.de/i/njjwn.png
152*3+184*12 = 2664

Piper FairyLevel 56 about 2600HP
http://laxeos.de/i/agcye.png
72+142*18 = 2628

Cruiach Demon Level 56 about 2600HP
http://laxeos.de/i/d7a7e.png
167*16 = 2672

Frore Lich Level 56 about 2600HP
http://laxeos.de/i/6hf7v.png
136+206*12 = 2608

Levian Level 62 about 3100HP
http://laxeos.de/i/t1jmr.png
64+187+117+15*187 = 3173

Finliath Level 62 about 3100HP
http://laxeos.de/i/ua4e2.png
195+195+125+14*195 = 3245
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:25 PM by Isavyr
Lerox wrote:
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:19 PM
Barguest Level 58 about 2800HP
http://laxeos.de/i/pt861.png
137+167*16 = 2809

Barguest Level 56 about 2600HP
http://laxeos.de/i/njjwn.png
152*3+184*12 = 2664

Piper FairyLevel 56 about 2600HP
http://laxeos.de/i/agcye.png
72+142*18 = 2628

Cruiach Demon Level 56 about 2600HP
http://laxeos.de/i/d7a7e.png
167*16 = 2672

Frore Lich Level 56 about 2600HP
http://laxeos.de/i/6hf7v.png
136+206*12 = 2608

Levian Level 62 about 3100HP
http://laxeos.de/i/t1jmr.png
64+187+117+15*187 = 3173

Finliath Level 62 about 3100HP
http://laxeos.de/i/ua4e2.png
195+195+125+14*195 = 3245

Good information, thanks for sharing. Anything above 2.5k seems excessive to me, given the high resists, and high damage, so while you're right that it's not 5k, it's still quite high. Regardless, it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. I think the pet root/mezz immunity is a significantly bigger issue.
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:34 PM by Amser
daytonchambers wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 10:49 PM
Amser wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 6:52 PM
This would go for any class moving at speed 6. Would you rather the minstrel has speed 6 and insta mez like the skald and bard?

First off they can, and quite often do, insta stun to double-shout nuke, then flute mez. This can all be done on the move, not much different than what a skald can do.
Conversation/what I quoted was about the ability tointerrupt a 5s cast mez. People stated that they were being blind sided by minstrels at speed 6 and being mezzed. My comment is in regards to that and that it is even easier on both other classes (Bard/Skald) to accomplish that as they have insta mez.

daytonchambers wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 10:49 PM
And then you go and mention bard. See many solo bards around? Yeah, me neither. So bringing them up here is pretty stupid on your part.
Conversation was about ability to blind side at speed 6 and get a mez off. I consider that something that doesn't entail just 1v1 but the larger meta of the game. Just because they don't run solo often, doesn't mean they are not running in a duo or smallman hunting solo's.... I'm glad you could interject an insult here as well. It added a lot to the discussion at hand.

Also yes, I actually have seen a number of solo bards. Maybe just my luck, but I have encountered a few. 2 days ago I was blind sided, just like this convo, by a solo bard at crim coast. Sure he ran up behind me, mezzed, emoted, and then ran away but that has not been my only encounter.

daytonchambers wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 10:49 PM
And neither the skald nor the bard is moving at speed 6 dragging a freaking red con pet along with them, which is what this whole discussion is about in the first place.
That's fair. Those classes can do a number of other things that a minstrel can't, but that is your place to argue the benefits of each and your thoughts on it being overpowered.
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:41 PM by Amser
gromet12 wrote:
Fri 17 Jan 2020 1:02 AM
Amser wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 6:52 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:29 PM
PRECISELY.

This would go for any class moving at speed 6. Would you rather the minstrel has speed 6 and insta mez like the skald and bard?

You want a 10M timer?

Fair argument. I see both options being useful for different situations.
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:57 PM by daytonchambers
Amser wrote: Also yes, I actually have seen a number of solo bards. Maybe just my luck, but I have encountered a few. 2 days ago I was blind sided, just like this convo, by a solo bard at crim coast. Sure he ran up behind me, mezzed, emoted, and then ran away but that has not been my only encounter.



If you think there are a number of solo bards running around and are in any way problematic then frankly you deserve to be insulted.

Dollar bill says you play minstrel
Sat 18 Jan 2020 12:25 AM by Amser
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:57 PM
Amser wrote: Also yes, I actually have seen a number of solo bards. Maybe just my luck, but I have encountered a few. 2 days ago I was blind sided, just like this convo, by a solo bard at crim coast. Sure he ran up behind me, mezzed, emoted, and then ran away but that has not been my only encounter.



If you think there are a number of solo bards running around and are in any way problematic then frankly you deserve to be insulted.

Dollar bill says you play minstrel

I said encountered a few, and provided an instance recently. With your constant lack of reading comprehension with my posts, maybe you should be looking to insult yourself then.

You would also be wrong assuming I play a minstrel and deserve to lose your dollar. Don't even have one started here.
Sat 18 Jan 2020 6:07 PM by sylvynyr
Conundrum....

IIRC, every other Charm spell has a cast time; Minstrel is insta (and spammable) leading to more easily attainable/maintainable red/purp con high level pets.
If Minstrel Charm had a cast time, they couldn't twist Songs.
If Minstrel Charm had a cast time, it would be extremely less likely to maintain red/purp con pets

IIRC
Charm level formula = CharacterLevel * 2/3 + SpecLevel * 1/3
So that RR12 = 50 * 2/3 + (50+22)*1/3 = 33 + 23 = Level 57 mob for ~100% charm (Level 53 at RR01 50+11 spec)
Charm requires 3 consecutive failed pulses before it breaks.
Spamming insta Charm seemingly overcomes this through brute force
AHK macros mentioned on the forums allow for this to happen by simply holding a key down every four seconds or so with practice

I don't believe adding a cast time to Minstrel Charm is an answer given twisting mechanics.
Is it feasible to re-approach the (IMO) "insta-charm spam breaking charm resist mechanics" bringing it into a more balanced implementation?
Sat 18 Jan 2020 9:39 PM by Enyore
Why not just go back to the time where it cost 5% endurance to cast the minstrel charm spell.......
Sun 19 Jan 2020 2:17 PM by SonicWaringham
Minstrel Charm on Live was Like:

Resist, Resist, Resist, Resist until 1.69 xD

My suggestion would be: The developers provide all relevant data.This data is evaluated and checked. Then decided in how far an adjustment might be necessary.
Sun 19 Jan 2020 10:38 PM by teiloh
daytonchambers wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 1:09 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 16 Jan 2020 5:05 AM
Nezoic wrote:
Tue 14 Jan 2020 9:08 PM
I'm fine with them, just allow all other pet class.... to charm purple pets and have those pets break them out of any CC.... problem solved?

Sure, give Minstrels 500+ DPS from range then


Mincers can double shout-nuke you in under a second for almost 400 damage, on top of their melee and what the pet hits you for. So, technically, they already do have around 500+ DPS burst.

And chain armor, and speed 6, and a stackable ablative, and an instant stun, and a mez that can be cast on the move, and an AoE mez, plus power and health regen chants to top off quickly between fights. Oh, and they can be fucking invisible if they want to while they climb keep walls.

That's all on top of access to a red con+ pet. It's always been a bullshit class, the last thing they need is more stuff.

In that case Archers have 2000+ DPS burst with crit shot + rapid fire in an instant. And long lists of random skill do not an argument make, it's near impossible to stealth and have a pet in any functional way, and you can split a billion hairs to make a 20+ item list for every class. Long story short if you deleted Minstrels and put Speed on Scouts, Mid and Hib would cry a river in a day.
Sun 19 Jan 2020 11:33 PM by daytonchambers
teiloh wrote:
Sun 19 Jan 2020 10:38 PM
In that case Archers have 2000+ DPS burst with crit shot + rapid fire in an instant. And long lists of random skill do not an argument make, it's near impossible to stealth and have a pet in any functional way, and you can split a billion hairs to make a 20+ item list for every class. Long story short if you deleted Minstrels and put Speed on Scouts, Mid and Hib would cry a river in a day.


My crit shots with a 5.5speed MP bow, 35+16bow spec, 350dex, and the correct arrow vs target armor hit for 550-650 tops. Immediately follow with a single RF shot which hits for under 200.

Even being generous that's 850 damage, and in more than one second as there is a 1.5s hard cap for draw time between shots. How on earth did you magic up a number like 2000+ dps?

One more thing, genius:
Chain armor, speed 6, stackable ablative, instant stun, mez that can be cast on the move, AoE mez, plus power and health regen chants are all available to a minstrel running visible with a red con pet. That isn't a long list of random skills, that's the standard toolkit of every minstrel in the game and absolutely relevant when talking about the class.
Sun 19 Jan 2020 11:44 PM by Quik
daytonchambers wrote:
Sun 19 Jan 2020 11:33 PM
teiloh wrote:
Sun 19 Jan 2020 10:38 PM
In that case Archers have 2000+ DPS burst with crit shot + rapid fire in an instant. And long lists of random skill do not an argument make, it's near impossible to stealth and have a pet in any functional way, and you can split a billion hairs to make a 20+ item list for every class. Long story short if you deleted Minstrels and put Speed on Scouts, Mid and Hib would cry a river in a day.


My crit shots with a 5.5speed MP bow, 35+16bow spec, 350dex, and the correct arrow vs target armor hit for 550-650 tops. Immediately follow with a single RF shot which hits for under 200.

Even being generous that's 850 damage, and in more than one second as there is a 1.5s hard cap for draw time between shots. How on earth did you magic up a number like 2000+ dps?

One more thing, genius:
Chain armor, speed 6, stackable ablative, instant stun, mez that can be cast on the move, AoE mez, plus power and health regen chants are all available to a minstrel running visible with a red con pet. That isn't a long list of random skills, that's the standard toolkit of every minstrel in the game and absolutely relevant when talking about the class.

Posted perfectly/ Now sure how people don't think minnies aren't over the top LOL.
Sun 19 Jan 2020 11:55 PM by Cadebrennus
daytonchambers wrote:
Sun 19 Jan 2020 11:33 PM
teiloh wrote:
Sun 19 Jan 2020 10:38 PM
In that case Archers have 2000+ DPS burst with crit shot + rapid fire in an instant. And long lists of random skill do not an argument make, it's near impossible to stealth and have a pet in any functional way, and you can split a billion hairs to make a 20+ item list for every class. Long story short if you deleted Minstrels and put Speed on Scouts, Mid and Hib would cry a river in a day.


My crit shots with a 5.5speed MP bow, 35+16bow spec, 350dex, and the correct arrow vs target armor hit for 550-650 tops. Immediately follow with a single RF shot which hits for under 200.

Even being generous that's 850 damage, and in more than one second as there is a 1.5s hard cap for draw time between shots. How on earth did you magic up a number like 2000+ dps?

One more thing, genius:
Chain armor, speed 6, stackable ablative, instant stun, mez that can be cast on the move, AoE mez, plus power and health regen chants are all available to a minstrel running visible with a red con pet. That isn't a long list of random skills, that's the standard toolkit of every minstrel in the game and absolutely relevant when talking about the class.

Mon 20 Jan 2020 4:42 AM by teiloh
daytonchambers wrote:
Sun 19 Jan 2020 11:33 PM
My crit shots with a 5.5speed MP bow, 35+16bow spec, 350dex, and the correct arrow vs target armor hit for 550-650 tops. Immediately follow with a single RF shot which hits for under 200.

Both land within a second. Poof, magic muh 2000 DPS! Like how you conveniently ignored the fact that Minstrel DDs are on a FIFTEEN second timer.

One more thing, genius:
Chain armor, speed 6, stackable ablative, instant stun, mez that can be cast on the move, AoE mez, plus power and health regen chants are all available to a minstrel running visible with a red con pet. That isn't a long list of random skills, that's the standard toolkit of every minstrel in the game and absolutely relevant when talking about the class.

HURR DURR

Reinforced armor, speed 5 shout if you're a coward, dual wield, 2.0 spec points, superior stealth, 2000+ range melee DPS, crit shots, Volley, spec AF, rapid fire, strength buff, stackable damage add, dex/qui buff, bladeturn piercer and evade III!

See, I can copy paste every single skill in a build too!
Mon 20 Jan 2020 7:49 AM by Sepplord
teiloh wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 4:42 AM
daytonchambers wrote:
Sun 19 Jan 2020 11:33 PM
My crit shots with a 5.5speed MP bow, 35+16bow spec, 350dex, and the correct arrow vs target armor hit for 550-650 tops. Immediately follow with a single RF shot which hits for under 200.

Both land within a second. Poof, magic muh 2000 DPS! Like how you conveniently ignored the fact that Minstrel DDs are on a FIFTEEN second timer.

One more thing, genius:
Chain armor, speed 6, stackable ablative, instant stun, mez that can be cast on the move, AoE mez, plus power and health regen chants are all available to a minstrel running visible with a red con pet. That isn't a long list of random skills, that's the standard toolkit of every minstrel in the game and absolutely relevant when talking about the class.

HURR DURR

Reinforced armor, speed 5 shout if you're a coward, dual wield, 2.0 spec points, superior stealth, 2000+ range melee DPS, crit shots, Volley, spec AF, rapid fire, strength buff, stackable damage add, dex/qui buff, bladeturn piercer and evade III!

See, I can copy paste every single skill in a build too!

you were literally just told that the shooting time is hardcapped at 1,5seconds between shots...
One-time openers are not a DPS-gauge, that would be burst. Otherwise a 150dmg minstrel instant is somehow also 2000DPS, i just look at the 0,07second timeframe where the instant hits someone. 150dmg/0,07second=2142DPS

teiloh wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 4:42 AM
HURR DURR
The only part of your comment that makes sense, and explains quite a few things
Mon 20 Jan 2020 2:59 PM by daytonchambers
teiloh wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 4:42 AM
HURR DURR

Reinforced armor, speed 5 shout if you're a coward, dual wield, 2.0 spec points, superior stealth, 2000+ range melee DPS, crit shots, Volley, spec AF, rapid fire, strength buff, stackable damage add, dex/qui buff, bladeturn piercer and evade III!

See, I can copy paste every single skill in a build too!


Jesus kid, where do I start with this word salad.

Yes ranger has RF armor, minstrel has chain. Advantage mincer, thanks to better absorbtion and the fact that your chain has a bonus vs most rangers that tend to go slash.

Speed 5 shout. That I have to spec 43 in PF to get, breaks on any damage, and will not restart until the 10 minute cooldown is over. Advantage: minstrel. And calling it a coward ability, when mincers pop SoS the moment things are no longer going their way, is textbook hypocrisy on your part.

Yes I can dual wield. Its the signature ability of the ranger vs access to shield spec or a pet like the other realm archers have. Just like all archers have access to evade 3. The only stealth class that really gets screwed here is the Scout, since they don't have dual wield or a pet to add an attacker and reduce enemy defenses like the rest of the stealth classes have. And DW reducing shield defense is a Phoenix specific change afaik which screws them again.

Superior stealth? Ranger enjoys a 100 unit detection advantage over the minstrel. So does every other sneak in the game, as it isn't specific to the Ranger class itself. Lucky for you most Shades Hunters and Shadowblades will hesitate to take advantage of this when they see that stealthed Highlander, since stealthing minstrels are almost never solo and it will likely end up as a free trip to the relic town once the me vs three fight is over. And with your stealth spec you get the same safe fall access that assassins get, whereas archer safe fall stops at 10 stealth.

2000+ range melee dps makes no sense whatsoever. You gotta give me the name of your weed guy, he's got some great stuff.

2.0 spec points? Big woop I need to spread those across 5 spec lines, vs a 1.5 class that only needs to spec 3 lines if they want stealth and many choose to run vis or stealth support and only need to spec 2 lines. Cant say that's an advantage. And for me to get worthwhile Spec AF Str and D/Q buffs out of pathfinding I need to go 40 deep into PF for them to be better than the combined forces bottle buffs available to everyone else. And going that deep into PF means I have to skimp on my other lines.

Volley is a situational RA that costs 8 points to get. Speed of Sound is arguably more powerful, fewer points to get, and far more useful in most situations.

Bladeturn piercer? Oh, you mean penetrating arrow. The ability that doesn't work against the majority of targets that have a BT up. I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever heard of someone pointing at pen arrow and thinking it's a powerful ability.

You really don't know shit about the other classes in this game, do you? You swear that you don't play minstrel (tho I have a hard time believing you) and you are obviously too chicken to list any of your toons in a sig. Why on earth should I take your opinion seriously?
Mon 20 Jan 2020 3:20 PM by Forlornhope
daytonchambers wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 2:59 PM
teiloh wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 4:42 AM
HURR DURR

Reinforced armor, speed 5 shout if you're a coward, dual wield, 2.0 spec points, superior stealth, 2000+ range melee DPS, crit shots, Volley, spec AF, rapid fire, strength buff, stackable damage add, dex/qui buff, bladeturn piercer and evade III!

See, I can copy paste every single skill in a build too!


Jesus kid, where do I start with this word salad.

Yes ranger has RF armor, minstrel has chain. Advantage mincer, thanks to better absorbtion and the fact that your chain has a bonus vs most rangers that tend to go slash.

Speed 5 shout. That I have to spec 43 in PF to get, breaks on any damage, and will not restart until the 10 minute cooldown is over. Advantage: minstrel. And calling it a coward ability, when mincers pop SoS the moment things are no longer going their way, is textbook hypocrisy on your part.

Yes I can dual wield. Its the signature ability of the ranger vs access to shield spec or a pet like the other realm archers have. Just like all archers have access to evade 3. The only stealth class that really gets screwed here is the Scout, since they don't have dual wield or a pet to add an attacker and reduce enemy defenses like the rest of the stealth classes have. And DW reducing shield defense is a Phoenix specific change afaik which screws them again.

Superior stealth? Ranger enjoys a 100 unit detection advantage over the minstrel. So does every other sneak in the game, as it isn't specific to the Ranger class itself. Lucky for you most Shades Hunters and Shadowblades will hesitate to take advantage of this when they see that stealthed Highlander, since stealthing minstrels are almost never solo and it will likely end up as a free trip to the relic town once the me vs three fight is over. And with your stealth spec you get the same safe fall access that assassins get, whereas archer safe fall stops at 10 stealth.

2000+ range melee dps makes no sense whatsoever. You gotta give me the name of your weed guy, he's got some great stuff.

2.0 spec points? Big woop I need to spread those across 5 spec lines, vs a 1.5 class that only needs to spec 3 lines if they want stealth and many choose to run vis or stealth support and only need to spec 2 lines. Cant say that's an advantage. And for me to get worthwhile Spec AF Str and D/Q buffs out of pathfinding I need to go 40 deep into PF for them to be better than the combined forces bottle buffs available to everyone else. And going that deep into PF means I have to skimp on my other lines.

Volley is a situational RA that costs 8 points to get. Speed of Sound is arguably more powerful, fewer points to get, and far more useful in most situations.

Bladeturn piercer? Oh, you mean penetrating arrow. The ability that doesn't work against the majority of targets that have a BT up. I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever heard of someone pointing at pen arrow and thinking it's a powerful ability.

You really don't know shit about the other classes in this game, do you? You swear that you don't play minstrel (tho I have a hard time believing you) and you are obviously too chicken to list any of your toons in a sig. Why on earth should I take your opinion seriously?

I think he's refering to the wind whisper rapier, which on live would actually proc a bladeturn for the wielder. I am pretty sure that's not the case here, so his point's still invalid
Mon 20 Jan 2020 10:50 PM by Cadebrennus
teiloh wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 4:42 AM
daytonchambers wrote:
Sun 19 Jan 2020 11:33 PM
My crit shots with a 5.5speed MP bow, 35+16bow spec, 350dex, and the correct arrow vs target armor hit for 550-650 tops. Immediately follow with a single RF shot which hits for under 200.

Both land within a second. Poof, magic muh 2000 DPS! Like how you conveniently ignored the fact that Minstrel DDs are on a FIFTEEN second timer.

One more thing, genius:
Chain armor, speed 6, stackable ablative, instant stun, mez that can be cast on the move, AoE mez, plus power and health regen chants are all available to a minstrel running visible with a red con pet. That isn't a long list of random skills, that's the standard toolkit of every minstrel in the game and absolutely relevant when talking about the class.

HURR DURR

Reinforced armor, speed 5 shout if you're a coward, dual wield, 2.0 spec points, superior stealth, 2000+ range melee DPS, crit shots, Volley, spec AF, rapid fire, strength buff, stackable damage add, dex/qui buff, bladeturn piercer and evade III!

See, I can copy paste every single skill in a build too!

Self damage Adds aren't stackable. They co-exist (and the higher one temporarily cancels out the lower one), but do not add to each other.
Tue 21 Jan 2020 7:44 PM by teiloh
daytonchambers wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 2:59 PM
Jesus kid, where do I start with this word salad.

WWHHOOOSH

Lots of talk for someone who listed MUH healsong in your long block of text as if one of the most subtle abilities in the game gives Minstrels a huge edge. I don't even see how Power Song would ever come into play in a situation where you're fighting a Minstrel as a Ranger. 3s hard cast to get 1 power regen over a power pot, which will not even amount to 20% of a single spell in an engagement.

I love the "stackable ablative" too. Slice it whichever way you want, and dress it up to your heart's content, if you double tap ablative with a pet running you're getting 17.5 melee damage reduced per second. This is barely more than 10 DPS damage add on a dual wielder and it forces you to retarget your pet several times.
Wed 22 Jan 2020 10:10 AM by gotwqqd
teiloh wrote:
Tue 21 Jan 2020 7:44 PM
daytonchambers wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 2:59 PM
Jesus kid, where do I start with this word salad.

WWHHOOOSH

Lots of talk for someone who listed MUH healsong in your long block of text as if one of the most subtle abilities in the game gives Minstrels a huge edge. I don't even see how Power Song would ever come into play in a situation where you're fighting a Minstrel as a Ranger. 3s hard cast to get 1 power regen over a power pot, which will not even amount to 20% of a single spell in an engagement.

I love the "stackable ablative" too. Slice it whichever way you want, and dress it up to your heart's content, if you double tap ablative with a pet running you're getting 17.5 melee damage reduced per second. This is barely more than 10 DPS damage add on a dual wielder and it forces you to retarget your pet several times.
I think many peoples point is retargetting your pet is inconsequential
Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:11 PM by teiloh
gotwqqd wrote:
Wed 22 Jan 2020 10:10 AM
teiloh wrote:
Tue 21 Jan 2020 7:44 PM
daytonchambers wrote:
Mon 20 Jan 2020 2:59 PM
Jesus kid, where do I start with this word salad.

WWHHOOOSH

Lots of talk for someone who listed MUH healsong in your long block of text as if one of the most subtle abilities in the game gives Minstrels a huge edge. I don't even see how Power Song would ever come into play in a situation where you're fighting a Minstrel as a Ranger. 3s hard cast to get 1 power regen over a power pot, which will not even amount to 20% of a single spell in an engagement.

I love the "stackable ablative" too. Slice it whichever way you want, and dress it up to your heart's content, if you double tap ablative with a pet running you're getting 17.5 melee damage reduced per second. This is barely more than 10 DPS damage add on a dual wielder and it forces you to retarget your pet several times.
I think many peoples point is retargetting your pet is inconsequential

Play a Minstrel and tell me how "inconsequential" it is, after you record and show us.
Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:19 PM by gotwqqd
teiloh wrote:
Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:11 PM
gotwqqd wrote:
Wed 22 Jan 2020 10:10 AM
teiloh wrote:
Tue 21 Jan 2020 7:44 PM
WWHHOOOSH

Lots of talk for someone who listed MUH healsong in your long block of text as if one of the most subtle abilities in the game gives Minstrels a huge edge. I don't even see how Power Song would ever come into play in a situation where you're fighting a Minstrel as a Ranger. 3s hard cast to get 1 power regen over a power pot, which will not even amount to 20% of a single spell in an engagement.

I love the "stackable ablative" too. Slice it whichever way you want, and dress it up to your heart's content, if you double tap ablative with a pet running you're getting 17.5 melee damage reduced per second. This is barely more than 10 DPS damage add on a dual wielder and it forces you to retarget your pet several times.
I think many peoples point is retargetting your pet is inconsequential

Play a Minstrel and tell me how "inconsequential" it is, after you record and show us.
Point is
It’s easy as pie with a macro
Fri 24 Jan 2020 12:04 AM by teiloh
gotwqqd wrote:
Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:19 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:11 PM
gotwqqd wrote:
Wed 22 Jan 2020 10:10 AM
I think many peoples point is retargetting your pet is inconsequential

Play a Minstrel and tell me how "inconsequential" it is, after you record and show us.
Point is
It’s easy as pie with a macro

Retargeting your pet means you stop targeting whatever it was you were targeting in the first place, and you have to time it well or you lose damage or cast time.
Fri 24 Jan 2020 12:23 AM by gromet12
teiloh wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 12:04 AM
gotwqqd wrote:
Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:19 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:11 PM
Play a Minstrel and tell me how "inconsequential" it is, after you record and show us.
Point is
It’s easy as pie with a macro

Retargeting your pet means you stop targeting whatever it was you were targeting in the first place, and you have to time it well or you lose damage or cast time.

It’s like what? 500ms default on your macro or set even lower, then it retargets back.
Fri 24 Jan 2020 4:00 AM by teiloh
Nearest target is not always going to get your last target
Fri 24 Jan 2020 6:28 AM by gotwqqd
teiloh wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 4:00 AM
Nearest target is not always going to get your last target

Last attacker
Fri 24 Jan 2020 9:39 PM by teiloh
gotwqqd wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 6:28 AM
teiloh wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 4:00 AM
Nearest target is not always going to get your last target

Last attacker

Fine for 1v1 against non-pet classes, not for anything else.
Fri 24 Jan 2020 10:34 PM by sylvynyr
Does it really matter whether you can immediately re-target a specific enemy when the pet is already attacking the target, interrupting, unrelenting pursuit, hitting for 200-300 damage and/or w/e special abilities come along with the pet?

Sure, Minstrels *can* charm red/purp con mobs, but should it be so seemingly easy/consistent/prevalent?
Fri 24 Jan 2020 11:06 PM by Azuell
teiloh wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 9:39 PM
gotwqqd wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 6:28 AM
teiloh wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 4:00 AM
Nearest target is not always going to get your last target

Last attacker

Fine for 1v1 against non-pet classes, not for anything else.

Oh no! You mean you have to manually target players sometimes in a fight? Minstrels have it so tough out here.

It's not like other classes don't have to manually change targets multiple times in a fight.
Sat 25 Jan 2020 5:18 AM by teiloh
sylvynyr wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 10:34 PM
Does it really matter whether you can immediately re-target a specific enemy when the pet is already attacking the target, interrupting, unrelenting pursuit, hitting for 200-300 damage and/or w/e special abilities come along with the pet?

Sure, Minstrels *can* charm red/purp con mobs, but should it be so seemingly easy/consistent/prevalent?

Go ahead and show us how easy it is, like we've asked 100 times already. "Endless pursuit" is not really accurate, they run slower than sprint speed and are on a 2000 range leash.
Sat 25 Jan 2020 5:19 AM by teiloh
Azuell wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 11:06 PM
Oh no! You mean you have to manually target players sometimes in a fight? Minstrels have it so tough out here.

It's not like other classes don't have to manually change targets multiple times in a fight.

BAWWWW

Oh no, you have to fight a pet? Non-minstrels have it so tough out here.

It's not like other pet classes have multipets that spam disease/nukes/heals or 70-90% intercept or something.

No, you have to retarget maybe 5-10x more than the next most twitchy class.
Sat 25 Jan 2020 6:34 AM by Azuell
teiloh wrote:
Sat 25 Jan 2020 5:19 AM
Azuell wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 11:06 PM
Oh no! You mean you have to manually target players sometimes in a fight? Minstrels have it so tough out here.

It's not like other classes don't have to manually change targets multiple times in a fight.

BAWWWW

Oh no, you have to fight a pet? Non-minstrels have it so tough out here.

It's not like other pet classes have multipets that spam disease/nukes/heals or 70-90% intercept or something.

No, you have to retarget maybe 5-10x more than the next most twitchy class.

I never said anything about minstrels haha. I was just pointing out how dumb your argument was but by all means carry on. You're doing great!
Sat 25 Jan 2020 2:55 PM by sylvynyr
teiloh wrote:
Sat 25 Jan 2020 5:18 AM
sylvynyr wrote:
Fri 24 Jan 2020 10:34 PM
Does it really matter whether you can immediately re-target a specific enemy when the pet is already attacking the target, interrupting, unrelenting pursuit, hitting for 200-300 damage and/or w/e special abilities come along with the pet?

Sure, Minstrels *can* charm red/purp con mobs, but should it be so seemingly easy/consistent/prevalent?

Go ahead and show us how easy it is, like we've asked 100 times already. "Endless pursuit" is not really accurate, they run slower than sprint speed and are on a 2000 range leash.

Well, there's always this:

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=65604#p65604

You can hold down charm button WHILST playing your song. BTW.
Song will still activate once it completes playing and then fade for the 11 seconds or so. (11 seconds with 100% instrument)

So:
(With pet selected its as simple as)
Press Speed, Hold Charm Button Down > Loop.

My AHK Script Does the following:
When Q is pressed down:: Equip Harp, Select Pet, Play Song. (this just runs once, when q is pressed)
Whilst Q is being held down:: Spams Charm

So I basically just press and hold Q once for 4 seconds every 8 seconds.

Also, didn't say endless pursuit, just relentless. Charmed pets don't make mistakes, always take the shortest path, aren't distracted by other targets or mobs, and will stay on the target until pulled off, loses charm, or target dies/vanishes. Relentless.
Sun 26 Jan 2020 6:58 AM by teiloh
Azuell wrote:
Sat 25 Jan 2020 6:34 AM
Minstrels have it so tough out here.

I never said anything about minstrels haha. I was just pointing out how dumb your argument was but by all means carry on. You're doing great!

You literally just quoted yourself saying the word "Minstrels." Anti Minstrel whine squad showing they have the same ape-like intelligence they have always had.
Sun 26 Jan 2020 6:59 AM by teiloh
sylvynyr wrote:
Sat 25 Jan 2020 2:55 PM
Also, didn't say endless pursuit, just relentless. Charmed pets don't make mistakes, always take the shortest path, aren't distracted by other targets or mobs, and will stay on the target until pulled off, loses charm, or target dies/vanishes. Relentless.

All pets do this, only Minstrels and Ments have a leash. Like I said, if it's so easy, I'd like to see any of the whiners here stream themselves playing a Minstrel so I can laugh my ass off.
Sun 26 Jan 2020 3:22 PM by Azuell
teiloh wrote:
Sun 26 Jan 2020 6:58 AM
Azuell wrote:
Sat 25 Jan 2020 6:34 AM
Minstrels have it so tough out here.

I never said anything about minstrels haha. I was just pointing out how dumb your argument was but by all means carry on. You're doing great!

You literally just quoted yourself saying the word "Minstrels." Anti Minstrel whine squad showing they have the same ape-like intelligence they have always had.

"I never said anything about minstrels" - meaning I wasn't in here complaining about them. Good job cherry picking a comment out of context though.
Sun 26 Jan 2020 5:18 PM by teiloh
Azuell wrote:
Sun 26 Jan 2020 3:22 PM
teiloh wrote:
Sun 26 Jan 2020 6:58 AM
Azuell wrote:
Sat 25 Jan 2020 6:34 AM
Minstrels have it so tough out here.

I never said anything about minstrels haha. I was just pointing out how dumb your argument was but by all means carry on. You're doing great!

You literally just quoted yourself saying the word "Minstrels." Anti Minstrel whine squad showing they have the same ape-like intelligence they have always had.

"I never said anything about minstrels" - meaning I wasn't in here complaining about them. Good job cherry picking a comment out of context though.

You joined the whine squad.

Cry some more tears.
Sun 26 Jan 2020 11:18 PM by sylvynyr
teiloh wrote:
Sun 26 Jan 2020 6:59 AM
sylvynyr wrote:
Sat 25 Jan 2020 2:55 PM
Also, didn't say endless pursuit, just relentless. Charmed pets don't make mistakes, always take the shortest path, aren't distracted by other targets or mobs, and will stay on the target until pulled off, loses charm, or target dies/vanishes. Relentless.

All pets do this, only Minstrels and Ments have a leash. Like I said, if it's so easy, I'd like to see any of the whiners here stream themselves playing a Minstrel so I can laugh my ass off.

Are you planning to provide any coherent responses or will it continue to be poorly attempted trolling in a lazy attempt to subjugate legitimate conversation? After providing a quote describing how easy it is to manage a red/purp con pet with a simple AHK macro as described by a Minstrel in the Albion forum, you misquoted me and fabricated your own statement to argue against, followed by misrepresenting my correction to your argument against yourself. Really not sure what to think, but then again we all kinda do.
Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:53 AM by teiloh
sylvynyr wrote:
Sun 26 Jan 2020 11:18 PM
Are you planning to provide any coherent responses or will it continue to be poorly attempted trolling in a lazy attempt to subjugate legitimate conversation? After providing a quote describing how easy it is to manage a red/purp con pet with a simple AHK macro as described by a Minstrel in the Albion forum, you misquoted me and fabricated your own statement to argue against, followed by misrepresenting my correction to your argument against yourself. Really not sure what to think, but then again we all kinda do.

It's "simple" to manage a pet without a macro too, you just need to hold down the charm button. The challenge is actually making use of the pet properly in combat while doing everything else a Minstrel does. I'd love, once again, to see any of the whiners here do that on a stream.

Been asking for 10+ years. Where is that vid, whiners?
Mon 27 Jan 2020 7:07 PM by paragate
teiloh wrote:
Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:53 AM
Been asking for 10+ years. Where is that vid, whiners?

Are you implying that these whiners lack the skill to pilot a minstrel, and that this is the single reason they lose fights versus minstrels? That's a highly irrational conclusion. Even so, what about the reverse: Can you provide these whiners with a video of yourself winning solo fights against minstrels? If not, then how are any of your words relevant to the discussion? And either way it still doesn't matter, since any such video wouldn't by itself demonstrate the (lack of a) need for a nerf.
Mon 27 Jan 2020 11:40 PM by Came
I agree the uncontrollable minstrel pet is abused, the proof is the incredible number of minstrel on albion
Tue 28 Jan 2020 12:48 AM by mattymc
It;s not about how 'hard or easy' it is to do anything -- it is simply ignorant to have a powerful pet that is easily immune to CC through a simple rel and recharm --- which is SIMPLE to accomplish. Annoyingly, the ability to charm RED con pets is almost as stupid ---- the PETs need a HUGE nerf --- always have
Tue 28 Jan 2020 4:05 AM by teiloh
paragate wrote:
Mon 27 Jan 2020 7:07 PM
teiloh wrote:
Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:53 AM
Been asking for 10+ years. Where is that vid, whiners?

Are you implying that these whiners lack the skill to pilot a minstrel, and that this is the single reason they lose fights versus minstrels? That's a highly irrational conclusion. Even so, what about the reverse: Can you provide these whiners with a video of yourself winning solo fights against minstrels? If not, then how are any of your words relevant to the discussion? And either way it still doesn't matter, since any such video wouldn't by itself demonstrate the (lack of a) need for a nerf.

Read the thread. They say playing Minstrels is easy mode. So where is the vid proving this?
Tue 28 Jan 2020 4:05 AM by teiloh
mattymc wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 12:48 AM
It;s not about how 'hard or easy' it is to do anything -- it is simply ignorant to have a powerful pet that is easily immune to CC through a simple rel and recharm --- which is SIMPLE to accomplish. Annoyingly, the ability to charm RED con pets is almost as stupid ---- the PETs need a HUGE nerf --- always have

Nope.

Came wrote:
Mon 27 Jan 2020 11:40 PM
I agree the uncontrollable minstrel pet is abused, the proof is the incredible number of minstrel on albion

Yet there's MORE Skalds. So what now?
Tue 28 Jan 2020 3:07 PM by jwalker
solo/smallman minstrel pop went up quite a bit lately - seems like they are THAT hard to play (-_-)
Tue 28 Jan 2020 4:58 PM by paragate
teiloh wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 4:05 AM
Read the thread. They say playing Minstrels is easy mode. So where is the vid proving this?

How would a video of them playing a minstrel prove anything? This argument is relevant if and only if you first assume that they are incompetent at playing the minstrel. Let's start with a counter-question: If they did indeed post a video like the one you request, would you then honestly switch positions and agree with them that the minstrel class is easy mode? Personally I absolutely wouldn't, because such a video would again prove nothing. Why are you asking for a video?
Tue 28 Jan 2020 10:20 PM by mattymc
teiloh wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 4:05 AM
mattymc wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 12:48 AM
It;s not about how 'hard or easy' it is to do anything -- it is simply ignorant to have a powerful pet that is easily immune to CC through a simple rel and recharm --- which is SIMPLE to accomplish. Annoyingly, the ability to charm RED con pets is almost as stupid ---- the PETs need a HUGE nerf --- always have

Nope.

Came wrote:
Mon 27 Jan 2020 11:40 PM
I agree the uncontrollable minstrel pet is abused, the proof is the incredible number of minstrel on albion

Yet there's MORE Skalds. So what now?

Nope --- blistering insight --- Minstrel Pet Mechanic is nonsense
Wed 29 Jan 2020 5:48 AM by teiloh
jwalker wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 3:07 PM
solo/smallman minstrel pop went up quite a bit lately - seems like they are THAT hard to play (-_-)

Skalds outnumber Minstrels and Bards combined for the longest time. Time to nerf Skalds.
Wed 29 Jan 2020 9:05 AM by Sepplord
paragate wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 4:58 PM
teiloh wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 4:05 AM
Read the thread. They say playing Minstrels is easy mode. So where is the vid proving this?

How would a video of them playing a minstrel prove anything? This argument is relevant if and only if you first assume that they are incompetent at playing the minstrel. Let's start with a counter-question: If they did indeed post a video like the one you request, would you then honestly switch positions and agree with them that the minstrel class is easy mode? Personally I absolutely wouldn't, because such a video would again prove nothing. Why are you asking for a video?

because it'S an easy scapegoat and probably "wins" him arguments in other circles where people don't realise that you don't have to be able to do something yoursefl or better to be able to criticize something.
It'S like a stand-up comedian once said:

"I don't know how to fly a helicopter, but when i see a crashed helicopter in a tree i will probably be right to assume that something went wrong"

telioh seems to be the guy that comes up and answers: "well, let's see you fly a helicopter then. You seem to know so much about helicopters and when they crash, show me a video of yourself flying a heicopter without crashing."
Wed 29 Jan 2020 9:58 PM by jwalker
teiloh wrote:
Wed 29 Jan 2020 5:48 AM
jwalker wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 3:07 PM
solo/smallman minstrel pop went up quite a bit lately - seems like they are THAT hard to play (-_-)

Skalds outnumber Minstrels and Bards combined for the longest time. Time to nerf Skalds.

last week solo kills:
top 100: 10 minstrels vs 6 skalds
rop 200: 18 minstrel vs 16 skalds

must be incredible hard to play
Thu 30 Jan 2020 10:22 PM by teiloh
jwalker wrote:
Wed 29 Jan 2020 9:58 PM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 29 Jan 2020 5:48 AM
jwalker wrote:
Tue 28 Jan 2020 3:07 PM
solo/smallman minstrel pop went up quite a bit lately - seems like they are THAT hard to play (-_-)

Skalds outnumber Minstrels and Bards combined for the longest time. Time to nerf Skalds.

last week solo kills:
top 100: 10 minstrels vs 6 skalds
rop 200: 18 minstrel vs 16 skalds

must be incredible hard to play

Prob because there are so many Mids that a solo kill is like trying to divide 1 cupcake between 18 fat kids.
Sat 1 Feb 2020 7:44 PM by joshisanonymous
Minstrels have a lot of tools but they're also a pretty complicated class to play, so I don't think most of these "put them in leather" or "get rid of charm" type of arguments are all that great. It's easy to play a minstrel badly, and when played badly, they're not much more than low damage, low defense tanks who sometimes manage to get their pet to attack you and sometimes get attacked by their own pet.

One change that was specific to this server, though, is how pets being CC'd is handled. Apparently, release pets removes any CC that was applied to the pet. I mean, it's one thing if a minstrel can release their pet so that it hits the minstrel and breaks any CC on the minstrel, but on the pet, too? Now you have a player who is themselves un-CCable and whose pet is also un-CCable. What was the rationale for this customization?
Sat 1 Feb 2020 9:11 PM by Quik
The point that it takes skill to make it good has no bearing.

It doesn't matter if only skilled players can utilize the class completely, the fact is that a "skilled" player can have a red/purple pet plus all the other perks that Minstrels get which is WAY over the top.

It doesn't matter that a bad player can only do half of what a skilled player does...

The simple fact is that ANY class that can get a purple pet + everything else is stupidly OP. What I find humorous is that the people arguing AGAINST pet nerfs keep saying that a red/purple pet isn't as big of a deal as everyone says, and if that's the case then it won't bother you to have the maximum pet level you can charm reduced to OJ.

I don't care if it takes a super skilled player to take advantage of every tool, this game is not about letting super skilled players have even MORE of an advantage over those of us that are just human and not DAoC gods like you uber Minnie players are...
Sat 1 Feb 2020 9:19 PM by Frigzy
joshisanonymous wrote:
Sat 1 Feb 2020 7:44 PM
One change that was specific to this server, though, is how pets being CC'd is handled. Apparently, release pets removes any CC that was applied to the pet. I mean, it's one thing if a minstrel can release their pet so that it hits the minstrel and breaks any CC on the minstrel, but on the pet, too? Now you have a player who is themselves un-CCable and whose pet is also un-CCable. What was the rationale for this customization?

This is the mechanic that makes them broken imo.
Sun 2 Feb 2020 5:07 AM by teiloh
Quik wrote:
Sat 1 Feb 2020 9:11 PM
The point that it takes skill to make it good has no bearing.

Yes it does. Higher skill requirements means on average, your performance in combat suffers

It doesn't matter if only skilled players can utilize the class completely, the fact is that a "skilled" player can have a red/purple pet plus all the other perks that Minstrels get which is WAY over the top.

Nope. SM and BD pets are better than Minstrel pets and the Minstrel base class is far less effective in anything other than solo, and only because of Speed/Stealth. The difference between a level 50 and 61 pet is something like 10-15% damage, 6-7% resist rates, and some survivability.
Sun 2 Feb 2020 3:42 PM by paragate
teiloh wrote:
Sun 2 Feb 2020 5:07 AM
Yes it does. Higher skill requirements means on average, your performance in combat suffers

How would you know, though? Are you a skilled minstrel-player? If yes, what proof is there? Do you have any recorded video evidence of yourself performing some of these smooth minstrel maneuvers that only the most capable minds could pull off? Or is all of this just wild speculation?
Sun 2 Feb 2020 5:12 PM by Quik
paragate wrote:
Sun 2 Feb 2020 3:42 PM
teiloh wrote:
Sun 2 Feb 2020 5:07 AM
Yes it does. Higher skill requirements means on average, your performance in combat suffers

How would you know, though? Are you a skilled minstrel-player? If yes, what proof is there? Do you have any recorded video evidence of yourself performing some of these smooth minstrel maneuvers that only the most capable minds could pull off? Or is all of this just wild speculation?

The point is though, it does NOT matter how much skill it takes.

If a class CAN be as OP as a Minstrel even if only in the hands of a few, it still needs altered. NO CLASS SHOULD HAVE WHAT A MINNIE DOES. That's the point. I don't care if only 1 person in DAoC can do this stuff, it still means it can be done and no class should have a red/purple pet AND be immune to mezzes AND be able to mez back on the move AND have max speed AND have mid grade armor AND ... you get my point.
Sun 2 Feb 2020 8:29 PM by Muse
Hib baseline stun op!
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:21 AM by teiloh
Quik wrote:
Sun 2 Feb 2020 5:12 PM
If a class CAN be as OP as a Minstrel even if only in the hands of a few, it still needs altered. NO CLASS SHOULD HAVE WHAT A MINNIE DOES. That's the point. I don't care if only 1 person in DAoC can do this stuff, it still means it can be done and no class should have a red/purple pet AND be immune to mezzes AND be able to mez back on the move AND have max speed AND have mid grade armor AND ... you get my point.

Oh, so it should just be a pain in in the ass, and garbage?

no class should have a red/purple pet AND be immune to mezzes AND be able to mez back on the move AND have max speed AND have mid grade armor AND ... you get my point.

Again, this isn't an argument. You can make this same facetious argument with any class by spamming its entire ability list.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM by gruenesschaf
The cc removal on the pet when charm breaks is not a custom feature, just like a released pet having some aggro (about 1 taunt worth of aggro) on the minstrel and therefore allowing it to break cc on the minstrel is also not a custom feature.

If we decide to do any changes on the minstrel pet mechanic the goal would be to remove to need for macros aka barrier of entry while slightly lowering the ceiling.

An example of what that could look like would be to allow charm to run concurrently with any other pulse and to make the cc removal / immunity have some cost, examples for this cost would be a cd on charm and/or increased resist rate while in combat (in combat only to not make it a hassle to travel with a pet, nobody likes the minstrel getting hit and having speed loss while roaming) making it a lot more dangerous to take a higher pet and also at least having a chance to see the pet going against the minstrel which currently can be entirely avoided by spamming charm on the pet.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:54 AM by Tritri
Oh my god Teiloh, you really Don't get it

First of all : I'm not for the nerf of minstrel, I Don't really care even if I do think they are extremely overpowered


But, you arguments are insanely bad
You can't justify balance with skill cap : Just because Something is 'hard' to do doesn't mean it has the right to be overpowered.

What would you think if we put a high skill class from Blade and Soul in one of the realm ? Yeah it would be harder to play than any other class currently in the game (yes, minstrel to, stop patting yourself over your mastery of a 20 years old class that any good player from any Fucking decent competitive game could master probably even better than you) and yes it would totally break the game balance : do you think it would be fair ? do you think it would be balanced ? Would you accept being tossed around by someone playing a class clearly harder to play in every aspect of yours, just because "it's harder to play"


This isn't balance, this is self polishing


And btw, nobody is entitled to provied you with any sort of video proof that they can do as good as you on your class. And you should realize that a fuckton of people are able to do it in the world
We're on a damn game that's about 20 years old, currently played by maybe less than 0.0001% of the world population with no ranking or competitive system whatsoever
Get off your Fucking high horse or go actually play in tournament of real high skill game against world class players
Mon 3 Feb 2020 1:46 PM by K4is0r
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM
The cc removal on the pet when charm breaks is not a custom feature, just like a released pet having some aggro (about 1 taunt worth of aggro) on the minstrel and therefore allowing it to break cc on the minstrel is also not a custom feature.

If we decide to do any changes on the minstrel pet mechanic the goal would be to remove to need for macros aka barrier of entry while slightly lowering the ceiling.

An example of what that could look like would be to allow charm to run concurrently with any other pulse and to make the cc removal / immunity have some cost, examples for this cost would be a cd on charm and/or increased resist rate while in combat (in combat only to not make it a hassle to travel with a pet, nobody likes the minstrel getting hit and having speed loss while roaming) making it a lot more dangerous to take a higher pet and also at least having a chance to see the pet going against the minstrel which currently can be entirely avoided by spamming charm on the pet.

to be honest I don`t know the reason why the minstrel high ceiling should be lowered if you decide to do that. The minstrel already got nerved on this server by comparison to the live servers. He has no zephyr, no CL disease and CL dots, no full buffed pets from buffbots and the possible high damage mobs on the phoenix server NF zone all went to oblivion more or less.
Most of the whiners here on the forum, so I understand it, don`t actually whine because the minstrel class has such a high skill ceiling, but because there are more solo minstrels out there now and can have higher pet lvls in group due to the legal use of macros on your server. I`m not a fan of macros. Maybe because I`m oldschool or maybe because I think that a game shouldn`t push their playerbase to a state, where they need to use third party tools...
So instead of lowering the entry barrier (if you would decide to do that) I would instead change the minstrel songs towards a spot where macros can`t be used anymore. For example:

*) charm song can`t be used during the time where another song (e.g. speed song) is in the pipeline.
*) Or there is some sort of 1s cooldown after an on/off charm phase.

Something like that.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 2:51 PM by Sepplord
K4is0r wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 1:46 PM
to be honest I don`t know the reason why the minstrel high ceiling should be lowered if you decide to do that. The minstrel already got nerved on this server by comparison to the live servers. He has no zephyr, no CL disease and CL dots, no full buffed pets from buffbots and the possible high damage mobs on the phoenix server NF zone all went to oblivion more or less.
Most of the whiners here on the forum, so I understand it, don`t actually whine because the minstrel class has such a high skill ceiling, but because there are more solo minstrels out there now and can have higher pet lvls in group due to the legal use of macros on your server. I`m not a fan of macros. Maybe because I`m oldschool or maybe because I think that a game shouldn`t push their playerbase to a state, where they need to use third party tools...
So instead of lowering the entry barrier (if you would decide to do that) I would instead change the minstrel songs towards a spot where macros can`t be used anymore. For example:

*) charm song can`t be used during the time where another song (e.g. speed song) is in the pipeline.
*) Or there is some sort of 1s cooldown after an on/off charm phase.

Something like that.

Not a bad post per se, but listing missing Masterlevels/Championlevels/buffbots as minstrelnerfs on phoenix really hurts your argumentation position, since every single class does not have these things.
You make a good point about minstrels only becoming such a problem because of macroing...a similar situation as the already adressed assassin repoisoning issue
Mon 3 Feb 2020 4:08 PM by K4is0r
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 2:51 PM
Not a bad post per se, but listing missing Masterlevels/Championlevels/buffbots as minstrelnerfs on phoenix really hurts your argumentation position, since every single class does not have these things.
You make a good point about minstrels only becoming such a problem because of macroing...a similar situation as the already adressed assassin repoisoning issue

I wrote it because its actually true ^^ I played a minstrel on live years ago and i play a minstrel on phoenix and these missing features hurt the minstrel more then other classes. For example, every other class can buff itself with pots and depends mostly on itself. Minstrels maindamage-dealer is his pet and that can`t buff itself (on live they had red buffbot buffs). I hope you get what I mean. Of course these things are gone for every char not just the minstrel, but like the CON conversion buff here on phoenix some chars got hit harder then others (poor archers :/).
Just wanted to summaries that the pet minstrel on phoenix is by far not so dangerous as he was on live servers and except the macro thing I would say he is in a good spot right now. But that`s just my 2 cent here ^^
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:02 PM by joshisanonymous
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM
The cc removal on the pet when charm breaks is not a custom feature, just like a released pet having some aggro (about 1 taunt worth of aggro) on the minstrel and therefore allowing it to break cc on the minstrel is also not a custom feature.

What's the evidence for that? I played a minstrel to a decent RR, often with pets, for a while around the time that NF was released and I don't remember ever being to able to release my pet to clear CC from the pet. I mean, maybe I overlooked that possibility because why on Earth should that work, but I didn't notice it nonetheless.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:17 PM by gruenesschaf
joshisanonymous wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:02 PM
What's the evidence for that? I played a minstrel to a decent RR, often with pets, for a while around the time that NF was released and I don't remember ever being to able to release my pet to clear CC from the pet. I mean, maybe I overlooked that possibility because why on Earth should that work, but I didn't notice it nonetheless.

It's a mechanic that has been in since basically forever and is even still present on live, ie was never touched, example (exactly at the time stamp):
https://youtu.be/LVCPMWTPxbk?t=44
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:42 PM by teiloh
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM
The cc removal on the pet when charm breaks is not a custom feature, just like a released pet having some aggro (about 1 taunt worth of aggro) on the minstrel and therefore allowing it to break cc on the minstrel is also not a custom feature.

If we decide to do any changes on the minstrel pet mechanic the goal would be to remove to need for macros aka barrier of entry while slightly lowering the ceiling.

An example of what that could look like would be to allow charm to run concurrently with any other pulse and to make the cc removal / immunity have some cost, examples for this cost would be a cd on charm and/or increased resist rate while in combat (in combat only to not make it a hassle to travel with a pet, nobody likes the minstrel getting hit and having speed loss while roaming) making it a lot more dangerous to take a higher pet and also at least having a chance to see the pet going against the minstrel which currently can be entirely avoided by spamming charm on the pet.

That would be hard to work with in PvE, and the tether range would also be problematic if it's becoming more of a permanent pet. If that change goes through, hopefully the various nerfed NF pets would be fixed to their original state or at least improved (Ellyl sage, Ellyl champion, Bloodletter, Frost Stallion, Cyhraeth, Far Dorocha, Goborchend Wounder and other bleed/DoT creatures, etc).

IMO if you added, as an interim option, a separate permacharm where a Minstrel or Mentalist could charm up to 110% of level permanently you'd see most of them, like 90%, switch over just because its that much less of a hassle.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:44 PM by Loki
K4is0r wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 4:08 PM
my 2 cent

Minstrel pet is more dangerous here than on live. Live minstrels have no burst against the many defensive toys, here mobs have high hp and some have over performing procs. And you wanna buff them too ? Cool ...
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:47 PM by teiloh
Tritri wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:54 AM
But, you arguments are insanely bad
You can't justify balance with skill cap : Just because Something is 'hard' to do doesn't mean it has the right to be overpowered.

Uh, no. It's a CORE DESIGN PRINCIPLE of every game worth anything, that a high skill cap and low skill floor means that a class needs to perform proportionate to the additional difficulty required to manage the class. If you're arguing that we should tighten up skill ceilings and floors in DaoC, and not the other way around, that's fine - we'll slam the Healer and Bard next and see how Mids and Hibs like it. Otherwise, you think a Minstrel should take 5-10x more skill for 0 net benefit, and just generally suck ass?

And btw, nobody is entitled to provied you with any sort of video proof that they can do as good as you on your class. And you should realize that a fuckton of people are able to do it in the world

And btw, yes they are, because they claimed the Minstrel is a no-skill easy mode class (and not that it has a high skill ceiling). If it's so easy, go ahead and prove how "easy" it is.

We're on a damn game that's about 20 years old, currently played by maybe less than 0.0001% of the world population with no ranking or competitive system whatsoever
Get off your Fucking high horse or go actually play in tournament of real high skill game against world class players

Bad players will be bad players. "I suck and I'm mad I lost" is not an argument for nerfing a class. The reason why 0.000000000001% of the world population plays this game is because of terrible design decisions influenced by whiners who don't understand anything about this game or game design in general.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:48 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:44 PM
K4is0r wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 4:08 PM
my 2 cent

Minstrel pet is more dangerous here than on live. Live minstrels have no burst against the many defensive toys, here mobs have high hp and some have over performing procs. And you wanna buff them too ? Cool ...

Wrong. Every single mob top tier Minstrel pet has been nerfed. The cait sidhe got buffed with a decent proc, but it's still much weaker than the top 10-20 on live.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:54 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:48 PM
Wrong. Every single mob top tier Minstrel pet has been nerfed. The cait sidhe got buffed with a decent proc, but it's still much weaker than the top 10-20 on live.
Try to follow the point. I didn't say they haven't been nerfed, I said compared to Live minstrels have it EZ mode here. Don't tell me about decent procs when stallion procs for 19x and normal wep procs are at 90. A live minstrel needs 20 min fights to kill any hibryd/tank class thats temped, there's no such thing on Phoenix due to reduced stats, no bonus to style damage, no bonus to evade/parry, no toys to use but Legion and pots . But I already know you're just here to rage and insult, what ya gonna do call me a mid again ? Gradually everyone in this thread noticed you're a raging buffoon , I'm surprised you are still trying to convince us.

A lot of things have been toned down here due to classic theme, time to nerf pet hp/procs and put them in line with player stats/procs. It's common sense. Charges have been nerfed and reduced to 50, but pets proc for 200 cool story brah.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:56 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:54 PM
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:48 PM
Wrong. Every single mob top tier Minstrel pet has been nerfed. The cait sidhe got buffed with a decent proc, but it's still much weaker than the top 10-20 on live.
Try to follow the point. I didn't say they haven't been nerfed, I said compared to Live minstrels have it EZ mode here. Don't tell me about decent procs when stallion procs for 19x and normal wep procs are at 90. A live minstrel needs 20 min fights to kill any hibryd/tank class thats temped, there's no such thing on Phoenix due to reduced stats, no bonus to style damage, no bonus to evade/parry, no toys to use but Legion and pots . But I already know you're just here to rage and insult, what ya gonna do call me a mid again ? Gradually everyone in this thread noticed you're a raging buffoon , I'm surprised you are still trying to convince us.

https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues/7be44f2c-dc63-474b-8f10-f1f826993edb

You and your fellow minstrel whine cultists downvote me, too bad. No one else wants to engage with your 20 years of tears. Frost stallions are absolutely nerfed to **** on this server and you're still crying.

On live a frost stallion can go up to level 60 or 61, walk faster than normal walking speed, can double hit, can double proc, can cast procs at 1500 range, and the procs have 300+ radius and deal 200-270 raw damage.

Here they proc maybe 1/10 times in melee only. You have absolutely no ****ing clue, period.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:57 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:56 PM
20 years of tears.
You're mentally deranged and you can't even see it ^ ^
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:06 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:57 PM
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:56 PM
20 years of tears.
You're mentally deranged and you can't even see it ^ ^

You and the other Minstrel whine cultists are ones to talk. Delusional.

LOL, he thinks frost stallions are strong on Phoenix.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:08 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:56 PM
You have absolutely no ****ing clue

It's funny because you're not even trying to argue my point, you're just mindlessly regurgitating what they have on live compared to here even though I already told you the amount of things that are missing here in order to fight that compared to live. Do you even play Phoenix ? I honestly think you don't and you're just raging here because of past flash backs of being abused by mids.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:10 PM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:06 PM
LOL, he thinks frost stallions are strong on Phoenix.
It's probably why they are the default choice of soloers/small men ... Because they are weak ))
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:12 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:08 PM
It's funny because you're not even trying to argue my point, you're just mindlessly regurgitating what they have on live compared to here even though I already told you the amount of things that are missing here in order to fight that compared to live. Do you even play Phoenix ? I honestly think you don't and you're just raging here because of past flash backs of being abused by mids.

Our groups stomped all over Mids and Hibs, not because of game balance, but because 90% of Mids are garbo players. Spoiled by EasyMode.

I like how you HUR DUR about how Minstrels are stronger here because of a lack of defensive tools (lol what?) but they're actually stronger on live because the Minstrel is a great chassis for things like Artifacts, MLs, CLs, because these provide bonuses independent of class and they are generalists.

Then again if someone is "smart" enough to think Minstrel pets need to be nerfed even more here, I'm guessing they can't understand simple game balance concepts either.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM by gruenesschaf
Teiloh is right in that all pets available here in nf have been nerfed in terms of procs / heal / dd values or cast time and in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage output and none of them have a faster than sprint movement speed.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:24 PM by Loki
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage

Thanks, I never disagreed pets have not been nerfed here, I said they are overperforming compared to player stays and defensives. Glad at least devs are following the convo
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:29 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:24 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage

Thanks, I never disagreed pets have not been nerfed here, I said they are overperforming compared to player stays and defensives. Glad at least devs are following the convo

You honestly think adding Artis, MLs, and CLs to the game would help your problem? ToA was the biggest buff I experienced playing Minstrel, they made Jacks of all Trades types infinitely stronger.

Frosties are weaker than cait sidhe here.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:30 PM by teiloh
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
Teiloh is right in that all pets available here in nf have been nerfed in terms of procs / heal / dd values or cast time and in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage output and none of them have a faster than sprint movement speed.

Many pets on live had faster than walk, but slower than sprint speeds (230). Sprint is 268 units iirc. And AFAIK it was only bloodletters that are insanely fast and can outrun sprinters.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:34 PM by Cadebrennus
K4is0r wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 1:46 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM
The cc removal on the pet when charm breaks is not a custom feature, just like a released pet having some aggro (about 1 taunt worth of aggro) on the minstrel and therefore allowing it to break cc on the minstrel is also not a custom feature.

If we decide to do any changes on the minstrel pet mechanic the goal would be to remove to need for macros aka barrier of entry while slightly lowering the ceiling.

An example of what that could look like would be to allow charm to run concurrently with any other pulse and to make the cc removal / immunity have some cost, examples for this cost would be a cd on charm and/or increased resist rate while in combat (in combat only to not make it a hassle to travel with a pet, nobody likes the minstrel getting hit and having speed loss while roaming) making it a lot more dangerous to take a higher pet and also at least having a chance to see the pet going against the minstrel which currently can be entirely avoided by spamming charm on the pet.

to be honest I don`t know the reason why the minstrel high ceiling should be lowered if you decide to do that. The minstrel already got nerved on this server by comparison to the live servers. He has no zephyr, no CL disease and CL dots, no full buffed pets from buffbots and the possible high damage mobs on the phoenix server NF zone all went to oblivion more or less.
Most of the whiners here on the forum, so I understand it, don`t actually whine because the minstrel class has such a high skill ceiling, but because there are more solo minstrels out there now and can have higher pet lvls in group due to the legal use of macros on your server. I`m not a fan of macros. Maybe because I`m oldschool or maybe because I think that a game shouldn`t push their playerbase to a state, where they need to use third party tools...
So instead of lowering the entry barrier (if you would decide to do that) I would instead change the minstrel songs towards a spot where macros can`t be used anymore. For example:

*) charm song can`t be used during the time where another song (e.g. speed song) is in the pipeline.
*) Or there is some sort of 1s cooldown after an on/off charm phase.

Something like that.

By your reasoning EVERYONE has been nerfed to the same level. In your post you're acting as if the Minstrel is the only class on the server without any of those things.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:01 PM by teiloh
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:34 PM
whine


Read this since you refused to believe it the last 3 times I told you:

gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
Teiloh is right in that all pets available here in nf have been nerfed in terms of procs / heal / dd values or cast time and in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage output and none of them have a faster than sprint movement speed.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:20 PM by Riac
unless they just nerfed the pets and i missed it, those pixy casting pets nuke hard af and cast those nukes quite quickly. their melee isnt too shabby either...
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:32 PM by Loki
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
Teiloh is right in that all pets available here in nf have been nerfed in terms of procs / heal / dd values or cast time and in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage output and none of them have a faster than sprint movement speed.

So, since you're in an agreeing mood and don't mind bringing in arguments from live, please tell me : do Phoenix Skalds have in combat movement speed burst like live ? Does charge work here, like live. Do we have crescendo, like live ? Does eldy's rr5 ability give him his personal SoS, like live ? So why are you gonna mention movement speed decrease of pet (on a class with speed 6) , when all the other tools are missing too ? Yes, pets are weaker than live - like EVERYONE else. But on Phoenix, they are overpowered. I'm walking around with 2.2k hp and 270 strength and you're telling me I should be happy the stallion doesn't have a 270 aoe.

You' re agreeing with a troll that spend his time insulting delusionally everyone that challenged his views in this thread. Bit of a low hanging fruit if you ask me. You're ignoring this just like you ignored animists camping PoC 7 months ago. Minstrels are swarming in Uppland daily for a reason. Lack of tools on Phoenix means plays are made around RAs and minstrels deny that aspect with their tool kit.

You're basically a modder and bringing in arguments like " mechanics like that have been around since forever", I don't understand how that removes it as subject to scrutiny. And this continuous live comparison is like buying a plastic light saber and complaining it doesn't cut people in half, like in Star Wars. Most of us are here, I assume, because live just isn't daoc anymore.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:02 PM by Lipsi
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM
making it a lot more dangerous to take a higher pet and also at least having a chance to see the pet going against the minstrel which currently can be entirely avoided by spamming charm on the pet.

This is actually the source of the problem. No CD, instant cast charm allowing to bypass any resist rate below 100% just by "brute force".
A 90% resist rate on a charm is supposed to be what it is, that is 90% resist, and not 9x cancelled 90% resist + 1 successful charm, repeated every 11 seconds.

May be make it so resisted charm is not recalculated at each cast of the spell, but "stored" somewhere till the next tick
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:12 PM by gruenesschaf
Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:32 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
Teiloh is right in that all pets available here in nf have been nerfed in terms of procs / heal / dd values or cast time and in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage output and none of them have a faster than sprint movement speed.

So, since you're in an agreeing mood and don't mind bringing in arguments from live, please tell me : do Phoenix Skalds have in combat movement speed burst like live ? Does charge work here, like live. Do we have crescendo, like live ? Does eldy's rr5 ability give him his personal SoS, like live ? So why are you gonna mention movement speed decrease of pet (on a class with speed 6) , when all the other tools are missing too ? Yes, pets are weaker than live - like EVERYONE else. But on Phoenix, they are overpowered. I'm walking around with 2.2k hp and 270 strength and you're telling me I should be happy the stallion doesn't have a 270 aoe.

What has current live to do with the pets? In case you haven't noticed, most mobs were already nerfed in our OF and we moved these OF mobs and placed them somewhere in NF instead of copying NF mobs / mob placement. So yes, you should be happy that the stallion isn't doing 270 ae proc or faster than walk speed or that the priests have a negligible ae or that the ellyll heals / fireballs are much weaker than they were on live even before all the toys you mentioned existed, in fact they were that strong even before you had 2.2k hp which is precisely the reason why they were nerfed to the state they are currently in.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:13 PM by Nauglamir
This is actually the source of the problem. No CD, instant cast charm allowing to bypass any resist rate below 100% just by "brute force".
A 90% resist rate on a charm is supposed to be what it is, that is 90% resist, and not 9x cancelled 90% resist + 1 successful charm, repeated every 11 seconds.

May be make it so resisted charm is not recalculated at each cast of the spell, but "stored" somewhere till the next tick

Everything above 40% to max 50% resistrate on the charm basically screws you up already in any regular fight against a half decent enemy (or enemies) - you just can't spend all your time recharming. Which is the reason so many minstrels run frostys or other orange con pets, btw - they have a resistrate that allows to handle them consistently, especially at low realmrank. Running a pet with 60%+ resistrate is for pve, if even so.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:39 PM by Loki
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:12 PM
What has current live to do with the pets?
I didn't bring the live argument, dude said minstrel pets should not be considered for a nerf because they already were nerfed compared to live. No one disagreed, yet you jumped in to agree. I said current stats make pets overpowered, can you agree 200 is bigger than 90 (pet proc compared to player dd proc) ? And the charges nerf played a big role in that (btw combined is capped at 50 specs and AF but champs still debuff for 70, that must be nice).

Also, do you agree the lack of options makes solo/small men revolve around RAs where pet mechanics play a huge role in denying ?
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:53 PM by Quik
Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:39 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:12 PM
What has current live to do with the pets?
I didn't bring the live argument, dude said minstrel pets should not be considered for a nerf because they already were nerfed compared to live. No one disagreed, yet you jumped in to agree. I said current stats make pets overpowered, can you agree 200 is bigger than 90 (pet proc compared to player dd proc) ? And the charges nerf played a big role in that (btw combined is capped at 50 specs and AF but champs still debuff for 70, that must be nice).

Also, do you agree the lack of options makes solo/small men revolve around RAs where pet mechanics play a huge role in denying ?

I doubt you will ever get a dev to agree that minstrel pets are at all OP and need a bit of a nerf.

The staff here have always taken the Minnie's side on that one.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:10 PM by Siouxsie
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
Teiloh is right in that all pets available here in nf have been nerfed in terms of procs / heal / dd values or cast time and in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage output and none of them have a faster than sprint movement speed.

gruenesschaf, you missed a bunch of pet nerfs then.. the ellyl champ hits for 230, the sage heals for 250.
It's ridiculous and needs a big nerf.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:17 PM by teiloh
Siouxsie wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:10 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
Teiloh is right in that all pets available here in nf have been nerfed in terms of procs / heal / dd values or cast time and in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage output and none of them have a faster than sprint movement speed.

gruenesschaf, you missed a bunch of pet nerfs then.. the ellyl champ hits for 230, the sage heals for 250.
It's ridiculous and needs a big nerf.

Stop whining. Sages heal for 450-500 on live and cast .7s faster, and they spam 200-230 bolts. What needs a nerf is SM 60-90% intercept rates.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:18 PM by teiloh
Lipsi wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:02 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM
making it a lot more dangerous to take a higher pet and also at least having a chance to see the pet going against the minstrel which currently can be entirely avoided by spamming charm on the pet.

This is actually the source of the problem. No CD, instant cast charm allowing to bypass any resist rate below 100% just by "brute force".
A 90% resist rate on a charm is supposed to be what it is, that is 90% resist, and not 9x cancelled 90% resist + 1 successful charm, repeated every 11 seconds.

May be make it so resisted charm is not recalculated at each cast of the spell, but "stored" somewhere till the next tick

it's a balance feature. The rest of the Minstrel class is sub-par for that reason. If the pet gets nerfed, the rest of the class needs a ton of buffs. And they have already been nerfed over a dozen times on Phoenix.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:24 PM by Loki
definitely not a crazy person ... Maybe should become a dev
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:28 PM by Quik
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:17 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:10 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:19 PM
Teiloh is right in that all pets available here in nf have been nerfed in terms of procs / heal / dd values or cast time and in general all >50 charmed pets are nerfed in terms of damage output and none of them have a faster than sprint movement speed.

gruenesschaf, you missed a bunch of pet nerfs then.. the ellyl champ hits for 230, the sage heals for 250.
It's ridiculous and needs a big nerf.

Stop whining. Sages heal for 450-500 on live and cast .7s faster, and they spam 200-230 bolts. What needs a nerf is SM 60-90% intercept rates.

2020-1-26 Sunday
• added an anti poc entrance camping mechanic
• keep task target is now more random
• animist fnf range reduction near keeps has been replaced with a height only restriction
•- further reductions of this height might happen if placing from the ground onto walls or vice versa is possible
•- a range restriction might come back if shroom placement near the inner oil is possible from the wall
• sm intercept rate has been reduced to match testing
• sm intercept no longer reduces the intercepted damage to 1/3 to match testing
• sm level 32 pet melee absorb has been increased (27 to 34)
• fixed defender of the undergrowth (large shield) speed (2.0 to 5.0)

Not sure what intercept rate is but it was changed...so since that was changed maybe Minstrel is next?

And why do you keep comparing phoenix to live as far as pet dmg...we aren't arguing what live is nor do we care...we care what the dmg is here without all the added benefits live gives you...

How about you get away from the straw man argument and just argue what phoenix has?
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:31 PM by Siouxsie
I don't get it. SM gets a nerf but Minstrels still have super powerful pets, and necros still are extremely overpowered..

but no.. Midgard needed yet another nerf, of course.

Pretty soon Midgard is going to get so nerfed no one will play it anymore, and we'll just have zergs of albs and hibs.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:45 PM by teiloh
Siouxsie wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:31 PM
I don't get it. SM gets a nerf but Minstrels still have super powerful pets, and necros still are extremely overpowered..

but no.. Midgard needed yet another nerf, of course.

Pretty soon Midgard is going to get so nerfed no one will play it anymore, and we'll just have zergs of albs and hibs.

WAHHHHHHHHHH

Midgard has been overpop and has a huge hand in crashing the population. SMs got BALANCED to live, Minstrels got NERFED from live 20+ times.

Big difference.
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:52 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:45 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:31 PM
I don't get it. SM gets a nerf but Minstrels still have super powerful pets, and necros still are extremely overpowered..

but no.. Midgard needed yet another nerf, of course.

Pretty soon Midgard is going to get so nerfed no one will play it anymore, and we'll just have zergs of albs and hibs.

WAHHHHHHHHHH

Midgard has been overpop and has a huge hand in crashing the population. SMs got BALANCED to live, Minstrels got NERFED from live 20+ times.

Big difference.

once again, this isnt live.
are you really trying to argue that ministrels + pets arent strong in a 1v1 setting?
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:26 AM by Lipsi
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:18 PM
it's a balance feature. The rest of the Minstrel class is sub-par for that reason. If the pet gets nerfed, the rest of the class needs a ton of buffs. And they have already been nerfed over a dozen times on Phoenix.

I don't think the minstrel is sub-par to other classes.
As a speed class, his speed isn't slower than other speed classes
As an interrupt class, his tools are plenty and not less efficient for interrupt (DD instant, Stun instant)
As a demezzer, his cast is no slower than other classes who do it
As a stealther, he wears chain and have a physical ablative
As a mezzer, they can single mezz while moving
Minstrels are very versatile and just cannot be the best class at everything they do, nor be called sub-par for not being the best at everything, because they can do pretty much everything.
As for the pets, they are fine as they are (ellyl sage heals are making sense because of the chain armor and the abblative, but tbh the ellyl itself isn't an overpowered pet, try it on mentalist to understand the heals won't be a gamechanger). The problem, if any, is that possibility to ignore totally the resist mechanism by spamming charm as an instant without CD, resulting in low rr minstrels being able to charm pets of excessively high level even from a very low RR. Except for that, they are fine and sensibly the same (modulo a couple levels due to 50 spec rather than 46) as mentalist charm about which nobody complains.
And when i read there is only 15% dmg difference between a lvl 50 and lvl 61 pet's damage, we must play a different game, because when i try it and release a lvl 50 pet with my mentalist, i can basically keep it on aggro forever with almost no damage, while a lvl 61 one will 3-4 shot me down.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:33 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:52 PM
once again, this isnt live.
are you really trying to argue that ministrels + pets arent strong in a 1v1 setting?

Every pet class is strong 1v1.

Lipsi wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:26 AM
As a speed class, his speed isn't slower than other speed classes
As an interrupt class, his tools are plenty and not less efficient for interrupt (DD instant, Stun instant)
As a demezzer, his cast is no slower than other classes who do it
As a stealther, he wears chain and have a physical ablative
As a mezzer, they can single mezz while moving
Minstrels are very versatile and just cannot be the best class at everything they do, nor be called sub-par for not being the best at everything, because they can do pretty much everything.
As for the pets, they are fine as they are (ellyl sage heals are making sense because of the chain armor and the abblative, but tbh the ellyl itself isn't an overpowered pet, try it on mentalist to understand the heals won't be a gamechanger). The problem, if any, is that possibility to ignore totally the resist mechanism by spamming charm as an instant without CD, resulting in low rr minstrels being able to charm pets of excessively high level even from a very low RR. Except for that, they are fine and sensibly the same (modulo a couple levels due to 50 spec rather than 46) as mentalist charm about which nobody complains.
And when i read there is only 15% dmg difference between a lvl 50 and lvl 61 pet's damage, we must play a different game, because when i try it and release a lvl 50 pet with my mentalist, i can basically keep it on aggro forever with almost no damage, while a lvl 61 one will 3-4 shot me down.

1. Speed isn't slower, but Skalds is instant and a Bard can do 95% of its class abilities with an instrument out. A Minstrel can't, and needs to run from one part of a battle to another several times
2. As an interrupter, their interrupts are far shorter range, more expensive, less effective and less frequent than a BD's (16 per min on Lifetap alone, 13 a min on resist. Minstrel gets 19 at 700 range using all instants, and casts slow as hell)
3. Minstrels are hybrids who generally do not invest in Aug Dex. They also have to swap between melee and casting, unlike Bards. They're the worst demezzer without release/recharm.
4. Minstrel stealth is the worst, and they have 1.5 spec points. Chain and physical ablative don't stack up to Evade 7, Dual Wield, Poisons, massive burst damage, etc. A Minstrel going toe to toe with an Assassin will lose 100% of the time no RAs are used. In fact the Minstrel has the worst melee in the game out of any class that can spec weapon, other than Bards.
5. And that mez is a 3.0s hard-cap cast time

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6668&p=46031&hilit=lerox#p46031

Damage diff between a high OJ and a 61 is 30%. Diff between a 50 and 61 is 50%.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:34 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:33 AM
1. Speed isn't slower, but Skalds is instant and a Bard can do 95% of its class abilities with an instrument out. A Minstrel can't, and needs to run from one part of a battle to another several times
2. As an interrupter, their interrupts are far shorter range, more expensive, less effective and less frequent than a BD's (16 per min on Lifetap alone, 13 a min on resist. Minstrel gets 19 at 700 range using all instants, and casts slow as hell)
3. Minstrels are hybrids who generally do not invest in Aug Dex. They also have to swap between melee and casting, unlike Bards. They're the worst demezzer without release/recharm.
4. Minstrel stealth is the worst, and they have 1.5 spec points. Chain and physical ablative don't stack up to Evade 7, Dual Wield, Poisons, massive burst damage, etc. A Minstrel going toe to toe with an Assassin will lose 100% of the time no RAs are used. In fact the Minstrel has the worst melee in the game out of any class that can spec weapon, other than Bards.
5. And that mez is a 3.0s hard-cap cast time

Bards do use their weapons. It's a necessity, imo, just like minstrel. No, they aren't like a BD--but BDs are retarded, so why would you compare yourself to a rupter class that's 5x better than everyone else at the job? Really strange position.

They are the worst demezzer because of their strengths being in opposition to one another. Similar to a pac healer in which healing and CCing are often at odds with one another, demezzing and pushing a red pet into the enemy's backline are also largely incompatible.

Any minstrel that dies to an assassin should reconsider their life choices given the many tools they have to escape, and the persistence of their kite game + strong pets.

Do you believe a minstrel is a weak class? It seems you believe so based on your post, and it's quite the opposite of my experience, having played on and against them on Phoenix.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 8:32 AM by Sepplord
teiloh wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:17 PM
Stop whining. Sages heal for 450-500 on live and cast .7s faster, and they spam 200-230 bolts. What needs a nerf is SM 60-90% intercept rates.

I undertand, it's really easy to miss something in the flood of patchnotes. Even someone as informed and knowledgable about all balance issues as you can't possibly know about every officially announced changed.

Explains why you miss everyones argument in the discussion too though and that results in the repetition of irrelevant arguments like how often minstrel has been nerfed.
The amount of times something has been buffed or nerfed is not an argument at all. Imagine someone getting a buff of +50dex, and then 20nerfs of -2dex. According to your logic the class is no heavily nerfed as it was nerfed 19times more often than buffed.

The current powerlevel is all that counts. If you think minstrels is balanced right now, then make that case. Comparing it's strength to live is completely irrelevant, no class is as strong as live.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 10:39 AM by Lipsi
teiloh wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:33 AM
2. As an interrupter, their interrupts are far shorter range, more expensive, less effective and less frequent than a BD's (16 per min on Lifetap alone, 13 a min on resist. Minstrel gets 19 at 700 range using all instants, and casts slow as hell)
3. Minstrels are hybrids who generally do not invest in Aug Dex. They also have to swap between melee and casting, unlike Bards. They're the worst demezzer without release/recharm.
5. And that mez is a 3.0s hard-cap cast time

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6668&p=46031&hilit=lerox#p46031

Damage diff between a high OJ and a 61 is 30%. Diff between a 50 and 61 is 50%.


Yes, their interrupt isn't as good range as BD but yet the comparison to the BD just hints how good minstrels are actually at it.
No, not investing in Aug Dex doesn't make a minstrel the worst demezzer, minstrels get +23 at level 50, which is still 1 pt better than aug dext 5 (+22) and as saracens can get 103+15 base dext, while a bard would get max 60+15 as a celt and healer 55+15 as a frostalf. That's a lot of Aug Dex they'd need to train to actually compete (aug dext 8 and aug dext 9 respectively). Bards and healers also do swap melee and casting and have to run from one side to the other of the fight.

Thanks for the interesting link about damage diff between charmed mob vs released mob. Even if it is not a 100% damage boost like for wild mobs, a 50% damage boost is still good to take, isn't it ? Also, that testing was done on toons with 635/645 AF /102 AF. On a cloth wearer, with 550-555 AF / 51 AF, the damage output might be very different.
But don't get me wrong, more interesting facts about higher mob level is not just about raw damage when you get hit. The higher the level, the higher to hit chance, the higher interrupt chance, the more resists to cc and spells, and of course the more HP to get rid of the pet.

The 3.0s cast time is still extremely faster over a no cast at all which every other mezzers would get while sprinting which is what casters usually have to do all the time as soon as targetted ^^
Tue 4 Feb 2020 10:44 AM by K4is0r
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:34 PM
By your reasoning EVERYONE has been nerfed to the same level. In your post you're acting as if the Minstrel is the only class on the server without any of those things.

I explained it a little bit more here:

K4is0r wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 4:08 PM
I wrote it because its actually true ^^ I played a minstrel on live years ago and i play a minstrel on phoenix and these missing features hurt the minstrel more then other classes. For example, every other class can buff itself with pots and depends mostly on itself. Minstrels maindamage-dealer is his pet and that can`t buff itself (on live they had red buffbot buffs). I hope you get what I mean. Of course these things are gone for every char not just the minstrel, but like the CON conversion buff here on phoenix some chars got hit harder then others (poor archers :/).
Just wanted to summaries that the pet minstrel on phoenix is by far not so dangerous as he was on live servers and except the macro thing I would say he is in a good spot right now. But that`s just my 2 cent here ^^

Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:44 PM
Minstrel pet is more dangerous here than on live. Live minstrels have no burst against the many defensive toys, here mobs have high hp and some have over performing procs. And you wanna buff them too ? Cool ...

its difficult to comprehent yes because there are so many differences between live and phoenix. In the end i can just tell you my personal feeling about it when I play minstrel on live and minstrel on phoenix. As I see and feel it the minstrel on phoenix is weaker than on live and would be well balanced here without macro spamming.


Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:32 PM
You' re agreeing with a troll that spend his time insulting delusionally everyone that challenged his views in this thread. Bit of a low hanging fruit if you ask me. You're ignoring this just like you ignored animists camping PoC 7 months ago. Minstrels are swarming in Uppland daily for a reason. Lack of tools on Phoenix means plays are made around RAs and minstrels deny that aspect with their tool kit.

Regarding the uppland comment... this has nothing to do with the minstrel itself but with speed 6. What do you think the albion land looks like and how skalds are swarming all over the xp places
The hibs have speed 6 on the bards (not exactly a strong killer) so most hibs run duos with bard to kill the XPers.


Nauglamir wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:13 PM
Everything above 40% to max 50% resistrate on the charm basically screws you up already in any regular fight against a half decent enemy (or enemies) - you just can't spend all your time recharming. Which is the reason so many minstrels run frostys or other orange con pets, btw - they have a resistrate that allows to handle them consistently, especially at low realmrank. Running a pet with 60%+ resistrate is for pve, if even so.

The funny thing here on phoenix is, that some orange pets actually do more damage then most red or purple pets. Thats the main reason why most minstrels play with orange pets:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=88501#p88501
See the damage table with a grain of salt, but its actually a good overview about how orange styling- or 2handed-mobs do more damage then red or purple 1handed mobs. On phoenix there are no red/purple styling/2handed mobs in NF anymore because of the pet changes, so minstrels need to play with orange mobs for the best damage. They need to make a decision if they want to have more damage and less pet survivability (solo) or less damage and more pet survivability (8vs8 or group play).


Siouxsie wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:31 PM
I don't get it. SM gets a nerf but Minstrels still have super powerful pets, and necros still are extremely overpowered..
but no.. Midgard needed yet another nerf, of course.
Pretty soon Midgard is going to get so nerfed no one will play it anymore, and we'll just have zergs of albs and hibs.

I think we two are on different planets here o.0 I read your post and in my mind the post says "OMG please Devs, design the game so that I can kill more people with my specific character and have more fun ganking others". Or no sorry, actually its more aggressive like "OMG Devs wtf, design the f...g game so that I can kill more people with my specific character and have more fun ganking others. If not your stupid". I`m sure that`s not the case but it would be nice of you if you can express yourself in a constructive way so others won`t get triggered when they read it.


Isavyr wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:34 AM
Do you believe a minstrel is a weak class? It seems you believe so based on your post, and it's quite the opposite of my experience, having played on and against them on Phoenix.

Could it be, that most pro nerf people here want to balance the minstrel with 1vs1 in mind? The fantastic thing on DAoC and maybe the main reason why so many people still play it is, that DaoC has so many ways how it can be played. From PvM over 1vs1 over 8vs8 over Zerg vs Zerg over stealth vs stealth. There are so many mini meta games in it, its absolutely insane
If you and also others want to balance a class, please also think about the changes in regards of other aspects of the game. The minstrel is a character which has many different roles in different aspects of the game.

If I just want to speak about the minstrel in 1vs1 aspects, in my opinion the minstrel is strong yes. But that`s also the case for skalds, champs, bds, infs, sbs, ns, rangers, hunters and sms (don`t know if the intercept changes changed something here). And each one of this characters can and do kill minstrels with the right strategies. Instead of swinging the nerf bat maybe there is a way to buff some other classes (not the ones mentioned), so there is more versatility in the 1vs1 meta (having speed or stealth to get away from ganking groups is probably the main reason for playing a skald, a minstrel or a stealther when someone want to start into the 1vs1 meta) without changing it so much that other ways (8vs8 etc.) get influenced.
If the minstrel really needs a change (Devs have probably more objective data like statistics etc. they can rely on then I do with my subjective impressions) I would try to nerf the use of macros without changing the skill-ceiling for minstrels who play without macros (why macros and possible suggestions I stated in my post on a previous page).
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:30 AM by Lerox
K4is0r wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 10:44 AM
The funny thing here on phoenix is, that some orange pets actually do more damage then most red or purple pets. Thats the main reason why most minstrels play with orange pets:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=88501#p88501
See the damage table with a grain of salt, but its actually a good overview about how orange styling- or 2handed-mobs do more damage then red or purple 1handed mobs. On phoenix there are no red/purple styling/2handed mobs in NF anymore because of the pet changes, so minstrels need to play with orange mobs for the best damage. They need to make a decision if they want to have more damage and less pet survivability (solo) or less damage and more pet survivability (8vs8 or group play).


The table is too old. As far as I know they removed styles from pets so the current damage table would look that way:
Remeber! Those damage values are on Albion chain armor with NO spec AF. I might redo a table with spec AF on.



Regarding to 2-handed mobs it is to say that they swing much slower than 2-handed mobs. DPS is about the same but of course it makes a difference if you run away from a pet and it hits you not all the time.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:34 AM by Cadebrennus
K4is0r wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 10:44 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:34 PM
By your reasoning EVERYONE has been nerfed to the same level. In your post you're acting as if the Minstrel is the only class on the server without any of those things.

I explained it a little bit more here:

K4is0r wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 4:08 PM
I wrote it because its actually true ^^ I played a minstrel on live years ago and i play a minstrel on phoenix and these missing features hurt the minstrel more then other classes. For example, every other class can buff itself with pots and depends mostly on itself. Minstrels maindamage-dealer is his pet and that can`t buff itself (on live they had red buffbot buffs). I hope you get what I mean. Of course these things are gone for every char not just the minstrel, but like the CON conversion buff here on phoenix some chars got hit harder then others (poor archers :/).
Just wanted to summaries that the pet minstrel on phoenix is by far not so dangerous as he was on live servers and except the macro thing I would say he is in a good spot right now. But that`s just my 2 cent here ^^

Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:44 PM
Minstrel pet is more dangerous here than on live. Live minstrels have no burst against the many defensive toys, here mobs have high hp and some have over performing procs. And you wanna buff them too ? Cool ...

its difficult to comprehent yes because there are so many differences between live and phoenix. In the end i can just tell you my personal feeling about it when I play minstrel on live and minstrel on phoenix. As I see and feel it the minstrel on phoenix is weaker than on live and would be well balanced here without macro spamming.


Loki wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:32 PM
You' re agreeing with a troll that spend his time insulting delusionally everyone that challenged his views in this thread. Bit of a low hanging fruit if you ask me. You're ignoring this just like you ignored animists camping PoC 7 months ago. Minstrels are swarming in Uppland daily for a reason. Lack of tools on Phoenix means plays are made around RAs and minstrels deny that aspect with their tool kit.

Regarding the uppland comment... this has nothing to do with the minstrel itself but with speed 6. What do you think the albion land looks like and how skalds are swarming all over the xp places
The hibs have speed 6 on the bards (not exactly a strong killer) so most hibs run duos with bard to kill the XPers.


Nauglamir wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:13 PM
Everything above 40% to max 50% resistrate on the charm basically screws you up already in any regular fight against a half decent enemy (or enemies) - you just can't spend all your time recharming. Which is the reason so many minstrels run frostys or other orange con pets, btw - they have a resistrate that allows to handle them consistently, especially at low realmrank. Running a pet with 60%+ resistrate is for pve, if even so.

The funny thing here on phoenix is, that some orange pets actually do more damage then most red or purple pets. Thats the main reason why most minstrels play with orange pets:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=88501#p88501
See the damage table with a grain of salt, but its actually a good overview about how orange styling- or 2handed-mobs do more damage then red or purple 1handed mobs. On phoenix there are no red/purple styling/2handed mobs in NF anymore because of the pet changes, so minstrels need to play with orange mobs for the best damage. They need to make a decision if they want to have more damage and less pet survivability (solo) or less damage and more pet survivability (8vs8 or group play).


Siouxsie wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:31 PM
I don't get it. SM gets a nerf but Minstrels still have super powerful pets, and necros still are extremely overpowered..
but no.. Midgard needed yet another nerf, of course.
Pretty soon Midgard is going to get so nerfed no one will play it anymore, and we'll just have zergs of albs and hibs.

I think we two are on different planets here o.0 I read your post and in my mind the post says "OMG please Devs, design the game so that I can kill more people with my specific character and have more fun ganking others". Or no sorry, actually its more aggressive like "OMG Devs wtf, design the f...g game so that I can kill more people with my specific character and have more fun ganking others. If not your stupid". I`m sure that`s not the case but it would be nice of you if you can express yourself in a constructive way so others won`t get triggered when they read it.


Isavyr wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:34 AM
Do you believe a minstrel is a weak class? It seems you believe so based on your post, and it's quite the opposite of my experience, having played on and against them on Phoenix.

Could it be, that most pro nerf people here want to balance the minstrel with 1vs1 in mind? The fantastic thing on DAoC and maybe the main reason why so many people still play it is, that DaoC has so many ways how it can be played. From PvM over 1vs1 over 8vs8 over Zerg vs Zerg over stealth vs stealth. There are so many mini meta games in it, its absolutely insane
If you and also others want to balance a class, please also think about the changes in regards of other aspects of the game. The minstrel is a character which has many different roles in different aspects of the game.

If I just want to speak about the minstrel in 1vs1 aspects, in my opinion the minstrel is strong yes. But that`s also the case for skalds, champs, bds, infs, sbs, ns, rangers, hunters and sms (don`t know if the intercept changes changed something here). And each one of this characters can and do kill minstrels with the right strategies. Instead of swinging the nerf bat maybe there is a way to buff some other classes (not the ones mentioned), so there is more versatility in the 1vs1 meta (having speed or stealth to get away from ganking groups is probably the main reason for playing a skald, a minstrel or a stealther when someone want to start into the 1vs1 meta) without changing it so much that other ways (8vs8 etc.) get influenced.
If the minstrel really needs a change (Devs have probably more objective data like statistics etc. they can rely on then I do with my subjective impressions) I would try to nerf the use of macros without changing the skill-ceiling for minstrels who play without macros (why macros and possible suggestions I stated in my post on a previous page).

I don't agree with you on many points but thank you for being respectful and at least a little logical when presenting your arguments.

/salute
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:17 PM by K4is0r
Lerox wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:30 AM
The table is too old. As far as I know they removed styles from pets so the current damage table would look that way:
Remeber! Those damage values are on Albion chain armor with NO spec AF. I might redo a table with spec AF on.



Regarding to 2-handed mobs it is to say that they swing much slower than 2-handed mobs. DPS is about the same but of course it makes a difference if you run away from a pet and it hits you not all the time.


Thanks for the new table! And also didnt know that there is such a huge difference between the swing speed on 1-handed and 2-handed mobs o.0
Your sure the DPS is the same? That would mean that it makes no sense at all to use ellyl champs or templars instead of a barguest.
Regarding pet styles I have in mind that the ellyl guards with their hammer (not the ones with shield) sometimes have a style animation and I think the damage also did change when they hit with the style. Not sure though so someone would need to test it out.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:06 PM by gruenesschaf
Lerox wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:30 AM
The table is too old. As far as I know they removed styles from pets so the current damage table would look that way:
Remeber! Those damage values are on Albion chain armor with NO spec AF. I might redo a table with spec AF on.



Regarding to 2-handed mobs it is to say that they swing much slower than 2-handed mobs. DPS is about the same but of course it makes a difference if you run away from a pet and it hits you not all the time.

Hm, if those numbers are accurate that would mean there is a bug where a pet doesn't count as charmed while charmed but only once it has been released. Released and charmed is both rvr damage and are intended to be the same (the released numbers), the change sometime last year removed the level difference damage multiplier for pets which was intended to also affect charmed pets.

Edit:
After looking over the code it looks like setting the charm time, which the damage calc uses to determine if a normal mob should count as charmed, is not set when charm has been refreshed but only when it is removed.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 2:24 PM by Sepplord
i am confused how the damage goes up from being charmed from the wild, and then down again when released.
If the charm-state is "only" triggered too late, shouldn't the charmed-values match the wild-values?
Tue 4 Feb 2020 4:30 PM by Lerox
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:06 PM
Lerox wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:30 AM
The table is too old. As far as I know they removed styles from pets so the current damage table would look that way:
Remeber! Those damage values are on Albion chain armor with NO spec AF. I might redo a table with spec AF on.



Regarding to 2-handed mobs it is to say that they swing much slower than 2-handed mobs. DPS is about the same but of course it makes a difference if you run away from a pet and it hits you not all the time.

Hm, if those numbers are accurate that would mean there is a bug where a pet doesn't count as charmed while charmed but only once it has been released. Released and charmed is both rvr damage and are intended to be the same (the released numbers), the change sometime last year removed the level difference damage multiplier for pets which was intended to also affect charmed pets.

Edit:
After looking over the code it looks like setting the charm time, which the damage calc uses to determine if a normal mob should count as charmed, is not set when charm has been refreshed but only when it is removed.

I thought the lower damage after release is intended. If I release the pet and recharm it the damage is lower for 10 seconds (?) and then it goes up to normal charmed damage value again. I am currently doing a new table with SPEC AF buff and same behaviour today.
Does values are only tested in a duel so if there is any other factor if there is a real RvR fight please tell me then I can do another table with real RvR conditions.
Basically I just did that table to see how adjustments to pets influence damage.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 4:34 PM by Lerox
K4is0r wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:17 PM
Lerox wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:30 AM
The table is too old. As far as I know they removed styles from pets so the current damage table would look that way:
Remeber! Those damage values are on Albion chain armor with NO spec AF. I might redo a table with spec AF on.



Regarding to 2-handed mobs it is to say that they swing much slower than 2-handed mobs. DPS is about the same but of course it makes a difference if you run away from a pet and it hits you not all the time.


Thanks for the new table! And also didnt know that there is such a huge difference between the swing speed on 1-handed and 2-handed mobs o.0
Your sure the DPS is the same? That would mean that it makes no sense at all to use ellyl champs or templars instead of a barguest.
Regarding pet styles I have in mind that the ellyl guards with their hammer (not the ones with shield) sometimes have a style animation and I think the damage also did change when they hit with the style. Not sure though so someone would need to test it out.

Yeah sorry most mobs are not styling anymore in frontier zone.
Ellyl guard is doing styles and a few mobs in Hibernia.

But as far as I know there is no higher mob than level 51 who can do a 2-handstyle. A level 51 does 182 damage on 703 AF Albion Chain.

It makes a difference to take a 2-hand mob because people are running away from your pet so it will hit from time to time and not all the time.
Makes a huge difference if your pet is hitting for 200 dmg per swing or 150 every, lets say, 8 seconds.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 4:40 PM by gruenesschaf
Lerox wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 4:30 PM
I thought the lower damage after release is intended. If I release the pet and recharm it the damage is lower for 10 seconds (?) and then it goes up to normal charmed damage value again. I am currently doing a new table with SPEC AF buff and same behaviour today.
Does values are only tested in a duel so if there is any other factor if there is a real RvR fight please tell me then I can do another table with real RvR conditions.
Basically I just did that table to see how adjustments to pets influence damage.

It is intended to go down while charmed or for 15 seconds after being released, however, it currently only goes down for those 15 seconds.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 5:09 PM by Lerox
New Table if Spec AF, 703 AF in total:




But keep in mind that the damage varies from weapon type for example a level 53 pet with 2-hand (Scythe weapon) hit for 30 damage more than some other level 53 2-hand pet (Slash weapon):
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:05 PM by gruenesschaf
Lerox wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 5:09 PM
But keep in mind that the damage varies from weapon type for example a level 53 pet with 2-hand (Scythe weapon) hit for 30 damage more than some other level 53 2-hand pet (Slash weapon):

Dullahans should probably be ignored, at least the ones on the night spawn in hib mainland, as they are a bit more special due to them being the first mobs where 2h pve mob damage has been tested in the early beta phases. Many unwitting animists were one or two shot by the side / back combo and they earned a small amount of extra damage :p
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:12 PM by Isavyr
K4is0r wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 10:44 AM
Could it be, that most pro nerf people here want to balance the minstrel with 1vs1 in mind?

No. The title answers this question already, as the pets are present in more than just 1v1.

K4is0r wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 10:44 AM
If the minstrel really needs a change (Devs have probably more objective data like statistics etc. they can rely on then I do with my subjective impressions) I would try to nerf the use of macros without changing the skill-ceiling for minstrels who play without macros (why macros and possible suggestions I stated in my post on a previous page).

I actually disagree with you entirely. I think the class should actually be easier to play (charm doesn't require constant refreshing, nor constant targetting of pet). It's a bad design methodology to use what I call nuclear balancing, in which it's difficult to obtain something, but once obtained, ridiculously strong. It's the minstrel in a nutshell. It was probably an accidental occurrence, the same as Mythic not implementing CC immunities upon DAOC's release; they didn't realize how people would exploit their design.

The minstrel is strong with a pet, weak without, and a headache for everyone to play. I think the class should be easier to play and more consistent (easily charmed strong pets, ie red pets RR6+). The only nerf I advocate is that pets in CC remain in CC after losing the charm. My proposed nerf targets Mentalists too, but it's a much larger issue with minstrels since they can be effective on the move, and thus aren't as limited to counterplay as the mentalist. It was an oversight by Mythic and it's a garbage mechanic with no tactical value (quite the opposite, it is nonsensical and only subtracts from RvR having only a couple classes with CC immune high level pets).
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:41 PM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:34 AM
teiloh wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:33 AM
1. Speed isn't slower, but Skalds is instant and a Bard can do 95% of its class abilities with an instrument out. A Minstrel can't, and needs to run from one part of a battle to another several times
2. As an interrupter, their interrupts are far shorter range, more expensive, less effective and less frequent than a BD's (16 per min on Lifetap alone, 13 a min on resist. Minstrel gets 19 at 700 range using all instants, and casts slow as hell)
3. Minstrels are hybrids who generally do not invest in Aug Dex. They also have to swap between melee and casting, unlike Bards. They're the worst demezzer without release/recharm.
4. Minstrel stealth is the worst, and they have 1.5 spec points. Chain and physical ablative don't stack up to Evade 7, Dual Wield, Poisons, massive burst damage, etc. A Minstrel going toe to toe with an Assassin will lose 100% of the time no RAs are used. In fact the Minstrel has the worst melee in the game out of any class that can spec weapon, other than Bards.
5. And that mez is a 3.0s hard-cap cast time

Bards do use their weapons. It's a necessity, imo, just like minstrel. No, they aren't like a BD--but BDs are retarded, so why would you compare yourself to a rupter class that's 5x better than everyone else at the job? Really strange position.

They are the worst demezzer because of their strengths being in opposition to one another. Similar to a pac healer in which healing and CCing are often at odds with one another, demezzing and pushing a red pet into the enemy's backline are also largely incompatible.

Any minstrel that dies to an assassin should reconsider their life choices given the many tools they have to escape, and the persistence of their kite game + strong pets.

Do you believe a minstrel is a weak class? It seems you believe so based on your post, and it's quite the opposite of my experience, having played on and against them on Phoenix.

1. I said 95% of their class abilities. Bards are not in melee nearly as much as Minstrel.
2. It's not at all similar to a Pac Healer. A Pac Healer, more or less, requires the similar positioning for both of its roles. Its two roles mechanically supplement one another (CC bars damage). They usually fall into a fairly predictable sequence (CC, and then heal as people come out of CC). Minstrel needs to monitor several more cues.
3. I said going toe to toe, not kiting. Other than stun, a Minstrel has no escape tools outside of RAs which I mentioned. Assassins can simply choose better targets due to stealth and Vanish when things are going poorly, not even to mention stunning, snaring, poisoning and coming back later.

It's not a weak class, BECAUSE of the pet, which was my argument to begin with. If the pet gets nerfed, it definitely becomes one of the worst classes in the game.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:44 PM by teiloh
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 8:32 AM
The current powerlevel is all that counts. If you think minstrels is balanced right now, then make that case. Comparing it's strength to live is completely irrelevant, no class is as strong as live.

Bad analogy. The Minstrel was never buffed relatively to any live patch compared to Phoenix. The SM, on the other hand, has a ton of errors going in its favor - from the intercept rate and damage, to the stun proc rate, to the stun damage type, to the pet's resistances (no longer 20-30% spirit weak, which is a huge problem for Alb).

Minstrel pets have taken 20-24 nerfs (some shared with all pet classes) from live. One or two of them have been reversed.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:52 PM by teiloh
Lipsi wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 10:39 AM
Yes, their interrupt isn't as good range as BD but yet the comparison to the BD just hints how good minstrels are actually at it.

Even an Enchanter with DPS debuff can do it at 13 range, and do it infinitely because they can select lower level spells. This isn't really an option for Minstrels.

No, not investing in Aug Dex doesn't make a minstrel the worst demezzer, minstrels get +23 at level 50, which is still 1 pt better than aug dext 5 (+22) and as saracens can get 103+15 base dext, while a bard would get max 60+15 as a celt and healer 55+15 as a frostalf. That's a lot of Aug Dex they'd need to train to actually compete (aug dext 8 and aug dext 9 respectively). Bards and healers also do swap melee and casting and have to run from one side to the other of the fight.

Not just Aug Dex but MOA. A Minstrel is definitely not doing MOA while Bards and Healers are built to benefit greatly from it. Healers and Bards only very rarely melee, Minstrels need to do it often to be optimal.

But don't get me wrong, more interesting facts about higher mob level is not just about raw damage when you get hit. The higher the level, the higher to hit chance, the higher interrupt chance, the more resists to cc and spells, and of course the more HP to get rid of the pet.

Of course none of these really solve the problems Minstrel pets have here, as gruenes said, they were all nerfed to shit. On top of those mentioned they don't double attack, damage lowered, level cap, can't charm while stunned anymore, nothing has greater than sprint speed, minimal buffs to share with Alb pets, etc etc. Basically, if damage is the issue, they're like a moderately strong tank's mainhand without any sort of RAs to back it up. A buffed templar does like 75 DPS, as an estimate. If you're talking interrupts, Enchanters and BDs are far better at doing interrupts + pet management. If you're talking about killing the pet in a 1v1 situation, all pet classes have a solution to this. Every other pet class can just heal their pet and/or nuke you down if you try to take down their pet before killing them in a solo situation. Pet classes are just strong solo, and it just so happens that Minstrels also have speed and every class with speed is highly popular.

The 3.0s cast time is still extremely faster over a no cast at all which every other mezzers would get while sprinting which is what casters usually have to do all the time as soon as targetted ^^

I'm willing to bet any class with the single 2.5s mez would get far more mezzes off than a Minstrel does with flute mez. Flute mez is useful as an interrupt, but it's not great for winning mez and there are better interrupt tools.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 7:01 PM by Sepplord
teiloh wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:44 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 8:32 AM
The current powerlevel is all that counts. If you think minstrels is balanced right now, then make that case. Comparing it's strength to live is completely irrelevant, no class is as strong as live.

Bad analogy. The Minstrel was never buffed relatively to any live patch compared to Phoenix. The SM, on the other hand, has a ton of errors going in its favor - from the intercept rate and damage, to the stun proc rate, to the stun damage type, to the pet's resistances (no longer 20-30% spirit weak, which is a huge problem for Alb).

Minstrel pets have taken 20-24 nerfs (some shared with all pet classes) from live. One or two of them have been reversed.

If you criticize an analogy, maybe quoting it would help the flow of the conversation. That said, it is not an analogy, it's an explanation of the concept.
The amount of nerfs/buffs doesn't say anything about the impact of those changes. I gave a quite obvious example.

That said, you keep defaulting to the Spiritmaster. Ironically spiritmaster has been nerfed already, and if he stays too strong i am sure more will follow. Just because there is another too strong class (and that is a discussion worth it's own thread) doesn't mean that minstrel is completely fine. I am not even saying that minstrels are clearly too strong, they are broken solo imo, but this game doesn't revolve around 1vs1 being balanced. Plenty of classes completely suck 1vs1 and also don't need a buff.

The thing is, you haven't made a single sound argument to make the case of minstrels being fine.

First you constantly compared minstrel to live, which is irrelevant. Because you are not fighting live enemies with your phoenix minstrel.
Second you are now defaulting to pointing at another class that you believe is too strong, which is just whataboutism.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 8:23 PM by teiloh
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 7:01 PM
If you criticize an analogy, maybe quoting it would help the flow of the conversation. That said, it is not an analogy, it's an explanation of the concept.
The amount of nerfs/buffs doesn't say anything about the impact of those changes. I gave a quite obvious example.

Instead, try remembering what you wrote a few minutes ago.

That said, you keep defaulting to the Spiritmaster. Ironically spiritmaster has been nerfed already, and if he stays too strong i am sure more will follow. Just because there is another too strong class (and that is a discussion worth it's own thread) doesn't mean that minstrel is completely fine.

I defaulted to the Spiritmaster because you don't seem to understand the difference between a reversion and a nerf. The designers on Phoenix chose 1.65 as a reference point specifically because they believe that this was a state of the game in which the classes were relatively balanced. That requires a lot of working assumptions about how each class, at 1.65, should perform. Spiritmasters being out of line due to differences in pet strength means that they are reverting to a stated design principle.
Minstrels, in fact, have actually been nerfed. And you are crying for even more nerfs. This goes to show that the nerf whiners are not knowledgeable at all about the Minstrel class (can't even give a ballpark figure of how much DPS any pet will do). Completely undermines your argument if you can't even give a single damage or healing figure.

The thing is, you haven't made a single sound argument to make the case of minstrels being fine.

That requires a single sound argument to make the case of minstrels NOT being fine. Like I said, none of the cultists here can even cite accurate Minstrel pet DPS, resist rates, abilities, movement speed, leashing behavior, etc. Since you love high school debate jargon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)

Otherwise, we default to the assumptions and statements of the devs, which do not favor you.

First you constantly compared minstrel to live, which is irrelevant. Because you are not fighting live enemies with your phoenix minstrel.
Second you are now defaulting to pointing at another class that you believe is too strong, which is just whataboutism.

Nope. I'm comparing Minstrels to OG 1.65 which is the core design reference point of this server, if you happened to miss it. You're confusing me with someone else who is referencing live MLs/CLs/Arts etc. Not surprising, since you can't even remember your own arguments.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 8:38 PM by teiloh
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:06 PM
Lerox wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:30 AM
The table is too old. As far as I know they removed styles from pets so the current damage table would look that way:
Remeber! Those damage values are on Albion chain armor with NO spec AF. I might redo a table with spec AF on.



Regarding to 2-handed mobs it is to say that they swing much slower than 2-handed mobs. DPS is about the same but of course it makes a difference if you run away from a pet and it hits you not all the time.

Hm, if those numbers are accurate that would mean there is a bug where a pet doesn't count as charmed while charmed but only once it has been released. Released and charmed is both rvr damage and are intended to be the same (the released numbers), the change sometime last year removed the level difference damage multiplier for pets which was intended to also affect charmed pets.

Edit:
After looking over the code it looks like setting the charm time, which the damage calc uses to determine if a normal mob should count as charmed, is not set when charm has been refreshed but only when it is removed.

I don't get the rationale behind this - it's effectively a Minstrel and to a lesser extent Mentalist nerf. This is because Minstrel pets, hard nerfed as they are on this server, are pretty much the only ones that rely on physical damage as a distinction. The mainstream non-charmed pets have an alternative function or rely on spells. Therefore an Enchanter on Phoenix is much stronger than on 1.65 because casting code has been cleaned up and their nukes hit just as hard if not harder and come more frequently, while the SM pet does its core job of intercepting well.

This nerf also works in a way that limits a certain playstyle with little effect on broader group balance. The net effect on balance (e.g. who wins and who loses a 1v1) is minimal because even with all of these DPS nerfs, a Minstrel will still manage to kite the usual suspects to death 1v1. The difference in win rates might shift by 1-2%, but most of the time it'll just be one or two more swings in a 1v1 situation. What it does accomplish is limit player choice and fun with pet selection. Is this a sort of appeasement to the same complaining players with their non-arguments? Who will never be satisfied even after a confirmed list of 20+ direct nerfs to the Minstrel class?

On another note, the Minstrel gets nerfed when frontier mob abilities are nerfed, but at the same time the benefit from charming higher mobs is counter-intuitively attenuated with each level of charm. In a thread a long long time ago you said this was done so that mobs could be balanced with one another more easily, and it sounded like a temporary measure. But now it sounds like it's a deliberate nerf? Quote here:

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sun 17 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
Mobs have additional mob damage modifier, this is to give us more leeway to adjust the pve damage without affecting rvr.

IMO, I can see it if the Phoenix team thought pets in general were just too strong, especially in terms of tanking damage. But many of the abilities are over-nerfed. Ellyl sage nukes for 60-70 over 3.2 seconds or so, whereas its 180-220+ with bolts per 2s originally. This is a 70-85% nerf. The ellyl sage now does about the same DPS as a Darkness BD pet without a debuff, and doesn't snare or lifetap. It's now weaker than a blue enchanter pet, notwithstanding the snare and debuff provided by the master, by several orders of magnitude. Heal is 250/3.2 vs. 450-500/2.5, a 60% nerf. These aren't trivial changes.

Afaik, you also stated previously that any mobs acting out of order with regard to 1.65 should be put on the tracker for fixes, but it seems like its a balance discussion now instead.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 9:39 PM
Live like behavior is basically intended where it does not conflict with other intentional changes. Just to give an example, a necro pet receiving significantly more or less damage in melee rvr combat than on live given the same stats is not intended, neither would be significant differences for the cab / ench caster pets or any kind of theurgist pet.

I state this because normally, balance changes are pretty clearly stated by you guys (the dev team). But this is a grey area of bug-fix, feature experimentation and balance and the documentation on these changes is very scarce. On one hand Animist changes were explained in very careful detail, but the nerf to BD healer pets was not documented (and it is a really big one; partially justified, but still). I've noticed frost stallion behavior changing multiple times in a week, for example. Cabalist stun suddenly changed from body to spirit damage type. If all of the Minstrel nerfs, and they are nerfs, were listed I think we'd see far fewer people crying for even more of them.

Especially since they'll have to justify why a level 55 Ellyl sage does maybe a third of the DPS of an Enchanter pet, and also doesn't snare.
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:55 PM by Azuell
teiloh wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 8:38 PM
If all of the Minstrel nerfs, and they are nerfs, were listed I think we'd see far fewer people crying for even more of them.

Then list them...

I honestly don't have a dog in this fight as I play alb and we run minstrel in our 3 man but your arguments (or lack thereof) are awful.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 12:11 AM by teiloh
Azuell wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:55 PM
teiloh wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 8:38 PM
If all of the Minstrel nerfs, and they are nerfs, were listed I think we'd see far fewer people crying for even more of them.

Then list them...

I honestly don't have a dog in this fight as I play alb and we run minstrel in our 3 man but your arguments (or lack thereof) are awful.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477

HUR DUR U HAV NO ARGMENTS only applies if the claimant side makes a valid argument in the first place.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 12:24 AM by joshisanonymous
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:17 PM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:02 PM
What's the evidence for that? I played a minstrel to a decent RR, often with pets, for a while around the time that NF was released and I don't remember ever being to able to release my pet to clear CC from the pet. I mean, maybe I overlooked that possibility because why on Earth should that work, but I didn't notice it nonetheless.

It's a mechanic that has been in since basically forever and is even still present on live, ie was never touched, example (exactly at the time stamp):
https://youtu.be/LVCPMWTPxbk?t=44

Well, I guess there it is, but that's unfortunate.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:47 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
HUR DUR U HAV NO ARGMENTS
HURR DURR BUT ON LIVE PONEYS SHOOT RAINBOWS OUT OF THEIR ARSES AND PUKE RAINBOW SKITTLES AND POOP BROWN M&Ms

I can do it too.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:58 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:47 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
HUR DUR U HAV NO ARGMENTS
HURR DURR BUT ON LIVE PONEYS SHOOT RAINBOWS OUT OF THEIR ARSES AND PUKE RAINBOW SKITTLES AND POOP BROWN M&Ms

I can do it too.

You whine cultists have never provided one single argument. Cry some more.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:25 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:58 AM
You whine cultists have never provided one single argument.

It's easy - this isn't live .
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:32 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:25 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:58 AM
You whine cultists have never provided one single argument.

It's easy - this isn't live .

Irrelevant. I know the koolaid you Minstrel Whine Cultists drink daily is some powerful stuff, but I said nothing about "live" as it is now - I said 1.65. Even though gruenes himself said that the live state (of charmed mobs) is what they're aiming for in the quotes I provided.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:43 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:32 AM
Irrelevant. I know the koolaid you Minstrel Whine Cultists drink daily is some powerful stuff, but I said nothing about "live" as it is now - I said 1.65. Even though gruenes himself said that the live state (of charmed mobs) is what they're aiming for in the quotes I provided.
Ofc it's relevant, all your arguments are related to live. This isn't live. Gruenes jumped in at the end of the thread and agreed with something literally no one disagreed with. Yes, mobs dont behave like live. Most classes are nowhere near close to live.

Btw you said whine cultists like 5 times, it's getting boring. As I said before, I don't think you even play Phoenix. Everyone told you this isn't live, you keep barfing numbers and stats from live. Do you even Phoenix, bruh ?

Here's what gruenes won't tell you, they did the mistake and allowed Mid to have a necklace with pbae charges (at least I think it was) that people found eventually and started using as a way to rupt in group fights. It took devs days to remove it, the fastest change ever. Mids didn't comment on it because it was common sense that such an item had no place on a classic based custom server. So by all means, tell me more about your frozen stallion pbae and how minstrels have been nerfed from a dozen times initially to over twenty times later, like you said when you had your forum seizure .
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:53 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:43 AM
Minstrel pet is more dangerous here than on live.

LOL.

This is why we're having this convo, and it was a PSA for the other drool cup wielding cultists.

20 more years of tears please.

'm more annoyed by the fact that not even a taunting style can swing the aggro of some pets, the stallion being the most common.

I'm actually being more than polite to you people, who are a gold mine of "I don't know how this game works after 20 years"

Suggestions to put minstrels in leather

Mezz and stun on the same timer

LOL
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:12 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:53 AM
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:43 AM
Minstrel pet is more dangerous here than on live.
LOL.
This is why we're having this convo, and it was a PSA for the other drool cup wielding cultists.

You're so dumb and biased, you're gonna ignore that was me replying to someone who said actually Phoenix minstrels are such in a worse spot than live because there they can buff their pets. Hilarious. Sounds like you're the cultist here , again. There's no "convo" here broski, it's just you raging. You have zero credibility with replies like "20 years of tears" lmao , get back on Prozac asap

Again, when are you gonna admit you dont play on Phoenix ?
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:36 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:12 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:53 AM
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:43 AM
Minstrel pet is more dangerous here than on live.
LOL.
This is why we're having this convo, and it was a PSA for the other drool cup wielding cultists.

You're so dumb and biased, you're gonna ignore that was me replying to someone who said actually Phoenix minstrels are such in a worse spot than live because there they can buff their pets. Hilarious. Sounds like you're the cultist here , again. There's no "convo" here broski, it's just you raging. You have zero credibility with replies like "20 years of tears" lmao , get back on Prozac asap

Again, when are you gonna admit you dont play on Phoenix ?

This guy who claims flute mez can't be interrupted and should be on the same timer as instant stun is talking.

LOL
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:50 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:36 AM
This guy who claims flute mez can't be interrupted and should be on the same timer as instant stun is talking.
Oh look, more lies ... at least I didn't instantly defer to live or yell "you're such a mid you ... MID !!!111!"

The guy who lists 2 H PA and "500-600" openers an advantage of SBs ... vs stackable ablatives . Get lost.

Here's a funny one, you said "Cry more. Minstrels would be better off with a reliable stun style than with the Insta stun any day." and when I asked "So you want a reliable stun style , instead of a 9 sec, 700 range, 10 sec cooldown insta stun. But I thought your melee is trash ? So maybe melee isn't that trash after all, and definitely not as trash as you'd like people to believe." you went on whining about mid outnumbering alb+hib or some other retarded shiet debunked 100 times.

Keep cherry picking and taking things out of context, literally everyone who came in this thread noticed what an imbecile and a waste of time you are.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 7:19 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:50 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:36 AM
This guy who claims flute mez can't be interrupted and should be on the same timer as instant stun is talking.
Oh look, more lies ... at least I didn't instantly defer to live or yell "you're such a mid you ... MID !!!111!"

The guy who lists 2 H PA and "500-600" openers an advantage of SBs ... vs stackable ablatives . Get lost.

Here's a funny one, you said "Cry more. Minstrels would be better off with a reliable stun style than with the Insta stun any day." and when I asked "So you want a reliable stun style , instead of a 9 sec, 700 range, 10 sec cooldown insta stun. But I thought your melee is trash ? So maybe melee isn't that trash after all, and definitely not as trash as you'd like people to believe." you went on whining about mid outnumbering alb+hib or some other retarded shiet debunked 100 times.

Keep cherry picking and taking things out of context, literally everyone who came in this thread noticed what an imbecile and a waste of time you are.

HUURRR DUURRRRR

I spammed a list of random shit to mock you and the other cultists. I said RELIABLE stun, so obviously that means Minstrel WS would have to go up.

Nice try.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 7:23 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 7:19 AM
random shit to mock you

Yeah , I know ... thats why no one cares wtf you say everything is random shit

teiloh in this thread

Wed 5 Feb 2020 7:53 AM by Uthred
Pls stop the insults. That would be great. Thank you for understanding.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 9:35 AM by Nauglamir
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 4:40 PM
Lerox wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 4:30 PM
I thought the lower damage after release is intended. If I release the pet and recharm it the damage is lower for 10 seconds (?) and then it goes up to normal charmed damage value again. I am currently doing a new table with SPEC AF buff and same behaviour today.
Does values are only tested in a duel so if there is any other factor if there is a real RvR fight please tell me then I can do another table with real RvR conditions.
Basically I just did that table to see how adjustments to pets influence damage.

It is intended to go down while charmed or for 15 seconds after being released, however, it currently only goes down for those 15 seconds.

So - what is going to happen now?
Wed 5 Feb 2020 9:44 AM by K4is0r
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:50 AM
Keep cherry picking and taking things out of context, literally everyone who came in this thread noticed what an imbecile and a waste of time you are.
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:58 AM
You whine cultists have never provided one single argument. Cry some more.

You two have serious issues on how to speak/write in a way so other people wanna listen to you...


teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477

THAT on the other hand is a very cool list of changed things here on phoenix and I want to highlight it.
Maybe it won`t change someones impression on how minstrels do or dont overperform right now, but I think it shows quite clearly that there already were many minstrel nerfs established on phoenix so far.


Nauglamir wrote: So - what is going to happen now?
Hahaha, thats a good question Maybe gruenesschaf could give us some inside here ^^
Wed 5 Feb 2020 2:39 PM by mattymc
K4is0r wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 9:44 AM
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:50 AM
Keep cherry picking and taking things out of context, literally everyone who came in this thread noticed what an imbecile and a waste of time you are.
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:58 AM
You whine cultists have never provided one single argument. Cry some more.

You two have serious issues on how to speak/write in a way so other people wanna listen to you...


teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477

THAT on the other hand is a very cool list of changed things here on phoenix and I want to highlight it.
Maybe it won`t change someones impression on how minstrels do or dont overperform right now, but I think it shows quite clearly that there already were many minstrel nerfs established on phoenix so far.


Nauglamir wrote: So - what is going to happen now?
Hahaha, thats a good question Maybe gruenesschaf could give us some inside here ^^

What the list show, if you believe minstrel pets need a nerf, is that the changes made were the wrong ones or didnt address the actual issues, if you dont -- it means nothing or means to you enough has been done.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:10 PM by teiloh
K4is0r wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 9:44 AM
Loki wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:50 AM
Keep cherry picking and taking things out of context, literally everyone who came in this thread noticed what an imbecile and a waste of time you are.
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:58 AM
You whine cultists have never provided one single argument. Cry some more.

You two have serious issues on how to speak/write in a way so other people wanna listen to you...


teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477

THAT on the other hand is a very cool list of changed things here on phoenix and I want to highlight it.
Maybe it won`t change someones impression on how minstrels do or dont overperform right now, but I think it shows quite clearly that there already were many minstrel nerfs established on phoenix so far.


Nauglamir wrote: So - what is going to happen now?
Hahaha, thats a good question Maybe gruenesschaf could give us some inside here ^^

Loki has been hurling insults and snark at anyone who opposes his cult, starting from the first few pages. I don't bow to cultist rhetoric. Some people think they can shriek and whine and call their friends in to upvote them and completely dominate a discussion, even if they've proven themselves to be completely clueless.

Put Minstrels in leather?
Flute mez can't be interrupted?
Put flute mez and stun on the same timer?
Put a 30 second re-cast time on Minstrel charm?

LOL.
Wed 5 Feb 2020 8:23 PM by Riac
is the contention here that ministrels are too strong in a group setting or a 1v1 setting w/ pet?
i def dont think they are weak in a group setting, they have tons of tools and util. not to mention that they really dont need that many clickable RAs to do their base job, anything else is just icing on the cake.
in a 1v1 setting w/ a pet they are stupid strong and generally very hard to kill unless you catch them slipping or their sos is down. the pets do a shitload of dmg, even if they are nerfed from their live counterparts (every class here is gimp compared to their live counterparts btw). also, if we are gonna be using live as any sort of comparison to what classes should have then im still waiting on my bludgeon lol.
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:10 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 8:23 PM
is the contention here that ministrels are too strong in a group setting or a 1v1 setting w/ pet?
i def dont think they are weak in a group setting, they have tons of tools and util. not to mention that they really dont need that many clickable RAs to do their base job, anything else is just icing on the cake.
in a 1v1 setting w/ a pet they are stupid strong and generally very hard to kill unless you catch them slipping or their sos is down. the pets do a shitload of dmg, even if they are nerfed from their live counterparts (every class here is gimp compared to their live counterparts btw). also, if we are gonna be using live as any sort of comparison to what classes should have then im still waiting on my bludgeon lol.

1v1, any pet class is strong. It's just that Minstrels can run around fast while doing it.

Ench pet for example, without a debuff, nukes for 150-160 unless something changed. Every 2.5-3 seconds. A Templar swings for say, 180 on chain, 250+ on cloth about every 4 seconds. The DPS is roughly equivalent, only the Minstrel can't spam out another pet, theirs don't have range, they don't snare, can't debuff their pets damage type, etc.

MInstrel pets got absolutely ****ed in terms of damage and abilities.
Thu 6 Feb 2020 6:28 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:10 AM
1v1, any pet class is strong. It's just that Minstrels can run around fast while doing it.

Ench pet for example, without a debuff, nukes for 150-160 unless something changed. Every 2.5-3 seconds. A Templar swings for say, 180 on chain, 250+ on cloth about every 4 seconds. The DPS is roughly equivalent, only the Minstrel can't spam out another pet, theirs don't have range, they don't snare, can't debuff their pets damage type, etc.

MInstrel pets got absolutely ****ed in terms of damage and abilities.

What's the HP difference between enchanter's pet and minstrel's avg pet?
What's the resist rate difference against level 50 spells between enchanter's pet and minstrel's avg pet?
Can minstrel pet break root or mezz on minstrel? What about itself? Can it break its own CC?

Of course when you ignore your classes strengths, it's going to seem gutted.
Thu 6 Feb 2020 7:20 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 6:28 AM
What's the HP difference between enchanter's pet and minstrel's avg pet?
What's the resist rate difference against level 50 spells between enchanter's pet and minstrel's avg pet?
Can minstrel pet break root or mezz on minstrel? What about itself? Can it break its own CC?

Of course when you ignore your classes strengths, it's going to seem gutted.

This is why you don't jump into arguments. I was responding wrt Riac's comment about Minstrel pet DPS in 1v1 fights. First, unless you're also a pet class, you're not killing that Ench pet in any sort of time where you're not taking 1500-3000 damage from debuff nukes. The resist rate on pets on Phoenix is about the same as a player's, afaik. Minstrels can't get any good nuker pets, since every single one (yes, every single one) was nerfed into the dirt. Minstrel melee pets will have to contend with far more defenses, in a 1v1 situation, generally.

And an Enchanter pet is not getting CCed 1v1 9 of 10 times outside of an insta or if they get jumped. Ench can lock down any caster permanently with DPS debuff, and stun over a QC. So if they purge, sure, they have a good chance of mezzing one of the two of you (you and your pet).
Thu 6 Feb 2020 2:31 PM by Lipsi
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:10 AM
only the Minstrel can't spam out another pet, theirs don't have range, they don't snare, can't debuff their pets damage type, etc.

Many of the FZ charmable mobs have range DD and CC (mezz, root, magical stun, physical stun), minstrels with speed 6 have it easier than anybody to travel and go get those useful pets.

Besides, Enchanters, Spiritmasters and Cabalists are 3 mages classes which were designed and balanced around their pet, unlike other classes that were designed to be sustainable without a pet, but can get one (druid, hunter, mentalist, minstrel, sorc etc) and benefit from it, so their pet doesn't make or break the class.

On a side note, from what you write, we might feel that minstrels without a pet have nothing at all, and tbh, it gives the tiresome impression that rather than debate and listen to others impressions about minstrels, you just rather want to object - even if that implies being biaised. I think by now, everybody understood that you feel the minstrel is perfectly fine and you are against a nerf of the pets, now is time to let others share their feelings about it.

Minstrel, overall, has very desirable qualities :
- you can always solo (speed 6 + stealth makes it better than any visible / no speed class at it who will always get raped by larger/faster group) and are not bad at 1v1, because they have their own tools + their pet and can always choose to retreat
- you can always group (needed for any group willing to go speed 6)
They are very sustainable and useful in all those situations.
What is discussed here is overall the unbalance when having to fight against a pet of very high level (resists + HP pool) - and to my opinion the fact that it is possible to charm such mobs even from very low RR by spamming macro to bypass spell resist chance. What i think, is that very high level pets should be the privilege of very high RR minstrels.
Thu 6 Feb 2020 2:58 PM by mattymc
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 7:20 AM
Isavyr wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 6:28 AM
What's the HP difference between enchanter's pet and minstrel's avg pet?
What's the resist rate difference against level 50 spells between enchanter's pet and minstrel's avg pet?
Can minstrel pet break root or mezz on minstrel? What about itself? Can it break its own CC?

Of course when you ignore your classes strengths, it's going to seem gutted.

This is why you don't jump into arguments. I was responding wrt Riac's comment about Minstrel pet DPS in 1v1 fights. First, unless you're also a pet class, you're not killing that Ench pet in any sort of time where you're not taking 1500-3000 damage from debuff nukes. The resist rate on pets on Phoenix is about the same as a player's, afaik. Minstrels can't get any good nuker pets, since every single one (yes, every single one) was nerfed into the dirt. Minstrel melee pets will have to contend with far more defenses, in a 1v1 situation, generally.

And an Enchanter pet is not getting CCed 1v1 9 of 10 times outside of an insta or if they get jumped. Ench can lock down any caster permanently with DPS debuff, and stun over a QC. So if they purge, sure, they have a good chance of mezzing one of the two of you (you and your pet).

Nonsense, first, if you can wipe out an enchanter pet before that much damage is accrued to you quit the game --- second AND more realistically --- you can CC any casted pet out of a fight, with a Mini, you cant
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:03 PM by Isavyr
Lipsi wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 2:31 PM
What is discussed here is overall the unbalance when having to fight against a pet of very high level (resists + HP pool) - and to my opinion the fact that it is possible to charm such mobs even from very low RR by spamming macro to bypass spell resist chance. What i think, is that very high level pets should be the privilege of very high RR minstrels.

The problem is that the pet is high HP, high resist, (in some cases) high damage, and typically cannot be CC'd--the idea of a pet being CC immune is bad design. As long as CC of pet is as easy as everyone else, I want minstrels to have high-level pets. It's a uniqueness of DAOC that shouldn't be removed.

I'd like to see Teiloh address why this bad design should remain, beyond that it's already existed (so did Group Purge, which was an idiotic ability and Thank God it's gone).
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:20 PM by Arkiluth
Oh Wow... Minstrels have been HEAVILY nerfed already, and now we are talking about nerfing them some more because they are good 1v1'ers? Minstrels are one of the hardest classes to control (lots of micromanaging). God forgive having someone spend the time to learn the class well enough to be dangerous.

Mid has some of the most powerful classes and combinations. Some would consider Mid EZ mode. Nerf minstrels (even more than they already have been nerfed) and you once again mess around with the balance between the realms. This is not just about one class balance against another in a 1v1 situation, it's a class balance issue. Nerf minstrels today, what's next? Nerf Skalds? Nerf 2h with Speed and Insta DD's and Insta Mez? After Skalds are nerfed, what's next?

I kindly ask the Dev Team to think very carefully about further nerfing minstrels more than they have already been nerfed. There will always be a flavor of the month class in which people will complain about, but it has to come to a certain point where some classes are better than others in different situations and people just have to accept and deal with it. Minstrels on live seem to be monsters, yet people are still complaining here. Minstrel is a good 1v1 class. Some people will just have to accept that. It's a part of DAOC since release. This is not a 1v1 PVP game. it's a realm game, and minstrels help bring a balance between the realms via the big picture mindset.

If Minstrels are even further nerfed, they may go the way of the Scout class on this server (utter garbage) and ultimately harm Albion as a realm. The idea that Mid, who have the highest population, want to dominate with their ShadowBlades, Hunters, and Skalds. Alb already lost their Scout (stop does not help much; sorry)., Infils are iffy compared to NS's and SB, and now Minstrels too? Realm balance has to be maintained and minstrels help just that.
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:29 PM by teiloh
Lipsi wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 2:31 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:10 AM
only the Minstrel can't spam out another pet, theirs don't have range, they don't snare, can't debuff their pets damage type, etc.

Many of the FZ charmable mobs have range DD and CC (mezz, root, magical stun, physical stun), minstrels with speed 6 have it easier than anybody to travel and go get those useful pets.

Don't jump into arguments. riac was talking about 1v1 DPS.
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:33 PM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:03 PM
The problem is that the pet is high HP, high resist, (in some cases) high damage, and typically cannot be CC'd--the idea of a pet being CC immune is bad design. As long as CC of pet is as easy as everyone else, I want minstrels to have high-level pets. It's a uniqueness of DAOC that shouldn't be removed.

I'd like to see Teiloh address why this bad design should remain, beyond that it's already existed (so did Group Purge, which was an idiotic ability and Thank God it's gone).

Why is it bad design just because you say it's bad design? Theurg pets have the same CC immunity (they can be stunned, like Minstrel pets). It's counter-intuitive, as in losing charm shouldn't help the charmer, but it's one of those quirks of the game that Mythic eventually built around as balance. The Minstrel has a lot of quirks, almost all of which hurt the class and Alb by extension, the charm trick is one of the few that actually help ... sometimes.

But realistically dropping charm does have its costs, you need to leash your pet so it gets off your target. 1v1 this is less important but most of the classes with root or mez are going to get ****ed by a class that can spam instants (they would get ****ed even harder by a Skald, which is actually an EZmode class) anyway.
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:56 PM by Arkiluth
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:33 PM
Isavyr wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:03 PM
The problem is that the pet is high HP, high resist, (in some cases) high damage, and typically cannot be CC'd--the idea of a pet being CC immune is bad design. As long as CC of pet is as easy as everyone else, I want minstrels to have high-level pets. It's a uniqueness of DAOC that shouldn't be removed.

I'd like to see Teiloh address why this bad design should remain, beyond that it's already existed (so did Group Purge, which was an idiotic ability and Thank God it's gone).

Why is it bad design just because you say it's bad design? Theurg pets have the same CC immunity (they can be stunned, like Minstrel pets). It's counter-intuitive, as in losing charm shouldn't help the charmer, but it's one of those quirks of the game that Mythic eventually built around as balance. The Minstrel has a lot of quirks, almost all of which hurt the class and Alb by extension, the charm trick is one of the few that actually help ... sometimes.

But realistically dropping charm does have its costs, you need to leash your pet so it gets off your target. 1v1 this is less important but most of the classes with root or mez are going to get ****ed by a class that can spam instants (they would get ****ed even harder by a Skald, which is actually an EZmode class) anyway.
Agreed. Skalds are ridiculously dangerous 1v1, and it's an extremely EASY class to play. Minstrels, on the other hand, have to do magic tricks with their hands and micro-manage in order to be effective. What we see here are people being mowed down by perhaps a hand full of highly talented minstrels and claiming the class is broken.

The Minstrel is a class where Skill really comes into play and is not EZ mode (Skald). And as I said in my previous post, Minstrel's role in Alb acts as a balancing factor against Mids and Hibs. Nerf the Minstrel more, and we will see moe Skalds and even more Nightshades and SB's camping ALb religiously, with no class to keep numbers in check. Minstrels bring balance. Scouts are trash on this server (even with STOP skill), Infiltrators are mediocre compared to NightShades, and Minstrels are really the only class that can keep Skalds in place.

Skalds ARE EZ mode, but a Skilled Skald can take out a Skilled Minstrel if played right. Low skilled players will flop on their minstrels. That is a fact. There is a reason why Mythic put the Minstrel quirks in place. The Minstrel is a High Risk (Micromanaging) / High Reward class. The minstrel is not recommended for low skilled players who wish to 1v1. Having said that, this game is not all about 1v1, it's about Realm vs Realm. Minstrels have a place in that role, and people here complaining about the class is playing with some serious game balance mechanics, not just about one class. Mythic understood the big picture, I hope Devs on this server do as well.
Thu 6 Feb 2020 11:27 PM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:33 PM
Why is it bad design just because you say it's bad design?

As has already been explained, because there's poor counterplay. Everything should have a counter. Theurgist's rely on constantly casting to maintain pet presence, which is interruptible. The pets expire. Furthermore, their pets can be confused (kills), or easily cleared with PBAOE. Minstrel doesn't have these limitations.

In order to lock the minstrel/pet down, you have to stun the minstrel, hope he doesn't purge it, and then land and keep a mezz on both pet and minstrel simultaneously. Otherwise the pet, and by extension the minstrel, will be CC immune. Game wasn't built on CC immune chars or pets, and it certainly doesn't need it.

Removing the pet's CC immunity is what the minstrel needs.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 1:05 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 11:27 PM
As has already been explained, because there's poor counterplay. Everything should have a counter. Theurgist's rely on constantly casting to maintain pet presence, which is interruptible. The pets expire. Furthermore, their pets can be confused (kills), or easily cleared with PBAOE. Minstrel doesn't have these limitations.

In order to lock the minstrel/pet down, you have to stun the minstrel, hope he doesn't purge it, and then land and keep a mezz on both pet and minstrel simultaneously. Otherwise the pet, and by extension the minstrel, will be CC immune. Game wasn't built on CC immune chars or pets, and it certainly doesn't need it.

Removing the pet's CC immunity is what the minstrel needs.

A few notes:
1. Theurgs can cast multiple pets. A Minstrel with Theurg pets instead of Charm would be an absolute nightmare, we should not pretend that Minstrel pets are better than Theurg, or even BD/SM, pets.
2. Confuse works on perma pets as well. Most of the time - and it isn't consistent - it will block the caster from giving commands to the pet.
3. You can drop charm while both you and the pet are mezzed. The pet itself can be stunned, so it is not CC immune.

"Game wasn't built on CC immune chars or pets"

This is essentially what tanks with Det are. Also, all pets in DaoC can "passive out" of roots i.e. you put them on passive and they can slide right out of a root as soon as the combat timer expires for them. This is mostly a big deal for Cab pets because they need to actually acquire targets to be at 100%. The Minstrel/Ment pets being able to drop root on demand is nice but not the huge difference that would be implied if this weren't a feature of the game. As far as mez goes, if you're in a solid group you will be getting demezz in a few seconds, so leashing your pet for demezz is sometimes not even worth it.

As far as counterplay goes, the counterplay to the Minstrel and pet in GvG is leashing the pet, stuns, killing the pet or the Minstrel, or just riding it out. A good BD dancing their pets on an enemy group, and whose healers are paying attention for demezz, is far more disruptive. A Minstrel pet on Phoenix also does low DPS, and the Minstrel itself is one of the lowest DPS classes in the game.

And it's not really relevant 1v1 unless you get the drop on the Minstrel as a mez class that can mez multiple targets, and those rarely 1v1. 1v1 is also not very important when it comes to balance.

In other words:

Most Minstrels would be happy to have SM, Theurg, or BD pets in place of their pet. And they'd be far, far more deadly in every situation people are complaining about (1v1, 8v8). It's not the uber weapon everyone here is making it out to be. On live 1.65 because they weren't nerfed 20-25 times, they could be very deadly in the right setups on the right Minstrels, but here there is a lot of misinformation and conjecture about how much damage Minstrel pets do.

It's speed. If Minstrels didn't have speed almost no one would play them solo, and they'd be rare as hell GvG.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 2:29 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 1:05 AM
A few notes:
1. Theurgs can cast multiple pets. A Minstrel with Theurg pets instead of Charm would be an absolute nightmare, we should not pretend that Minstrel pets are better than Theurg, or even BD/SM, pets.
2. Confuse works on perma pets as well. Most of the time - and it isn't consistent - it will block the caster from giving commands to the pet.
3. You can drop charm while both you and the pet are mezzed. The pet itself can be stunned, so it is not CC immune.

I'm not familiar with Confuse being effective against a minstrel--block the minstrel from giving commands? For how long?
teiloh wrote: [immunity] is essentially what tanks with Det are.

Disagree entirely. A single target mezz will still get a tank out of a fight for 10s. Not so for a pet.

teiloh wrote: Also, all pets in DaoC can "passive out" of roots i.e. you put them on passive and they can slide right out of a root as soon as the combat timer expires for them.

Again, looks like more of an exploit than an intentional design having to do with pets receiving sloppy coding that was intended for PvE mobs rather than RvR assets.

teiloh wrote: As far as mez goes, if you're in a solid group you will be getting demezz in a few seconds, so leashing your pet for demezz is sometimes not even worth it.

I totally agree--and that supports my point. You are making a conscious choice here, which is why it'd pain me to have it removed. But releasing pet to give immunity? There's zero downside! Why wouldn't you do it? Why have such a mechanic in the first place that's an obvious "do every time"? This is the epitome of bad design.

teiloh wrote: killing the pet or the Minstrel..

Basically the counter to everything in the game. eg is not actual counterplay.

teiloh wrote: Most Minstrels would be happy to have SM, Theurg, or BD pets in place of their pet.
I doubt that, and would love to see minstrels with SM pets. Within a few hours, every minstrel would be demanding their higher-hp pets back. SM pets are too easily controlled, killed, and don't break their master's CC. It would break the minstrel's strengths too completely for what--a measly stun, bladeturn, and intercept (which wouldn't even be used in 8v8)?
Same with theurgist pets--why would you want to play without quickcast, and have to cast pets in the backline, while having short-range DDs/movable mezz? Totally doesn't fit the minstrel kit!
BD pet is debatable--I'd love to see it only to prove the point that the minstrel pet is far better, albeit a PITA to operate (I'd like to see that fixed, actually, because it's clunky, having come out of an exploit rather than deliberate design)

I'm not concerned with minstrel's damage, and the fact you comment on their damage makes me wonder what role you think the minstrel fills. They do good damage, and while I would love to know the actual number, they aren't primarily damage dealers so whether their damage is only that of an armsman or more is a rather moot point.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 2:42 AM by teiloh
1. They're blocked for as long as the Confuse lasts, last I checked.
2. 55% Det + 25% Stoi X 50% sists means the longest lasting ST Mez, 1:20, gets cut down to 8 seconds. Realistically most mezzes will be Healer/Bard/Sorc AOEs though.

I totally agree--and that supports my point. You are making a conscious choice here, which is why it'd pain me to have it removed. But releasing pet to give immunity? There's zero downside! Why wouldn't you do it? Why have such a mechanic in the first place that's an obvious "do every time"? This is the epitome of bad design.

The downside is making your pet lose its target. I keep my pet hitting people plenty of times when I know I'm going to get a demezz. There are plenty of "do every time" mechanics, lets not pretend most fights are rich with player choice in terms of what ability to use.

Basically the counter to everything in the game. eg is not actual counterplay.

Kill a Minstrel pet and they're not getting another one. Kill a summoned pet and another one can be resummoned. Kill the Minstrel and the pet will often be aggro'd on its group, or simply run away.

Within a few hours, every minstrel would be demanding their higher-hp pets back. SM pets are too easily controlled, killed, and don't break their master's CC. It would break the minstrel's strengths too completely for what--a measly stun, bladeturn, and intercept (which wouldn't even be used in 8v8)?

A resummonable pet and the intercept is non-trivial against assist trains, assuming the fine control Minstrels already need to make their pet worthwhile. Also it has no leash and you don't need to retarget it a million times to keep charm.

Same with theurgist pets--why would you want to play without quickcast, and have to cast pets in the backline, while having short-range DDs/movable mezz? Totally doesn't fit the minstrel kit!

Because the spell is just that strong. QC is hardly a game changer for Theurgs. If you really think Minstrels would be weaker with Theurgist pets, push for that swap.

BD pet is debatable--I'd love to see it only to prove the point that the minstrel pet is far better, albeit a PITA to operate (I'd like to see that fixed, actually, because it's also clunky and poor design because it came out of an exploit rather than deliberate design)

It's definitely not. Not for interrupts/utility at least, especially because Phoenix has reamed every single good Minstrel pet. I play both classes.

I'm not concerned with minstrel's damage, and the fact you comment on their damage makes me wonder what role you think the minstrel fills. They do good damage, and while I would love to know the actual number, they aren't primarily damage dealers so whether their damage is only that of an armsman or more is a rather moot point.

I comment on damage because the devs have deliberately nerfed Minstrel pet damage 5-6 times (lowered NPC damage and then separately scaled up the damage of all non-charmed pets, lowered pet level bonus to damage which pretty much only affects Minstrels, nerfed individual pets, removed double hit, lowered NPC stat scaling) and literally 90% of this thread is shrieking for even more Minstrel pet damage nerfs. Like I said before, the damage nerfs really didn't do anything other than make the Minstrel less fun in groups to no real detriment to their role as interrupters.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 7:27 AM by Neso
Arkiluth wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:20 PM
Oh Wow... Minstrels have been HEAVILY nerfed already, and now we are talking about nerfing them some more because they are good 1v1'ers? Minstrels are one of the hardest classes to control (lots of micromanaging). God forgive having someone spend the time to learn the class well enough to be dangerous.

Mid has some of the most powerful classes and combinations. Some would consider Mid EZ mode. Nerf minstrels (even more than they already have been nerfed) and you once again mess around with the balance between the realms. This is not just about one class balance against another in a 1v1 situation, it's a class balance issue. Nerf minstrels today, what's next? Nerf Skalds? Nerf 2h with Speed and Insta DD's and Insta Mez? After Skalds are nerfed, what's next?

If Minstrels are even further nerfed, they may go the way of the Scout class on this server (utter garbage) and ultimately harm Albion as a realm.

Pretty much this.
The one class that's needed in any competitive small/8 man alb group is a minstrel. Start adding unpopular changes, and the class won't get played which then impacts the whole realm.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:41 AM by MeatBicycle
Thats not true and you guys know that. As long as the minstrel has speed he has a place in groups regardless of his toolkit. Or do you really think a Skald is such a great addition in caster setups?

Furthermore you wanna say that the minstrel has to be overpowered to ensure the stability of albion? Come on, thats ridiculous.

Since the sm got an intercept nerf (because people were crying a lot about that like we see that on minstrel as well) i'm pretty sure that the minstrel will get a nerf soon, too. Even if its true and the minstrel needs tons of skills ( i doubt about that because of macros, AHK and so on ) the state of the minstrel is way too good on phoenix. If you don't want to see that, maybe you just don't want to lose the easy mode. Even decent minstrels are just way too hard with the pet and their toolkit.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 1:52 PM by bigne88
Minstrell class is strong? Indeed. It needs good skills and game knowledge to be effective? Hell yea. Pet is annoying? Ofc.

But lets be serious, if you are skilled as well you can deal with that no problems.
Imho this moaning about mincer pet comes from bad players who got fragged by a skilled mincer and they are hiding their lack of skill behind a big red leviatan.

The same goes for bard amnesia, animist shrooms, SM pet, BD pet, celerity etc...everything on daoc has a counter, you just need knowledg.

Dirty trick to deal with mincer pet? Brake his speed and snare it (enchanter pet is there for a reason).
Or (if you are a bard) mezz the pet, when mincer release it cast confusion on the pet and mezz the mincer. if there is enough distance between them the pet will gtfo away.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 2:36 PM by Arkiluth
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:41 AM
Thats not true and you guys know that. As long as the minstrel has speed he has a place in groups regardless of his toolkit. Or do you really think a Skald is such a great addition in caster setups?

Furthermore you wanna say that the minstrel has to be overpowered to ensure the stability of albion? Come on, thats ridiculous.

Since the sm got an intercept nerf (because people were crying a lot about that like we see that on minstrel as well) i'm pretty sure that the minstrel will get a nerf soon, too. Even if its true and the minstrel needs tons of skills ( i doubt about that because of macros, AHK and so on ) the state of the minstrel is way too good on phoenix. If you don't want to see that, maybe you just don't want to lose the easy mode. Even decent minstrels are just way too hard with the pet and their toolkit.

I'll clarify my post because I think you misunderstand a few things.

1. No, I do not believe minstrels are overpowered. I do believe that with a heightened level of skills by a player, a minstrel can be a powerful 1v1 character. Guess who else can be a very powerful 1v1 character? Skalds. The difference here is that the learning curve, the skillset needed, and micromanagement required on a Skald is nothing compared to that of a Minstrel. Do you want to think about what I consider "Overpowered"? Any class that requires a low skill set and yet still be devastating. The ratio of the two is what does determine what is overpowered. With that said, I do believe Skalds are "Overpowered", as the amount of "skill" needed to be devastating is extremely low. The term "overpowered" that you are using can only stem from your frustration of 1v1 scenarios and trying to find excuses as to why you were outplayed. It could not have been a highly skilled player able to micro-manage one of the most difficult classes to play in the game.

2. Minstrels have always, since the game's launch, been a formidable 1v1 foe. It's called Realm Balancing. And the reason why Minstrels do what they do is that Mythic understood that balancing the game is NOT limited by how well characters can do 1v1. Minstrels play a pivotal role in realm vs realm combat, and to think it's the main role is just to bring speed to groups is to not fully understand the overall game mechanics regarding balance. "Minstrels give speed, they will have no problem finding groups" argument is rather silly, one which I have seen on this discussion a few times. If that's the case, why are people complaining about a Minstrels ability (under the right skill set) to be successful in 1v1? Shouldn't the people complaing be grouping up as well?

3. It takes skill to be effective with a minstrel 1v1 against similar or higher ranked opponents. The concept of "Oh, they can just use AHK and that's it" shows a clear misunderstanding of the complexities of the class. Micromanagement. A poorly skilled minstrel will actually do things to make the enemy's job easier to kill them.

4. While you focus on your own 1v1 experience vs a minstrel that outplayed you, I am speaking about overall realm balance with Hib's NS's, Mid's Skalds, archers from both Mid and Hib (Scouts are trash, let's be transparent about that).

The following is not directed towards you, so you know. This is a comment to share with all on this thread:

I take no jab at anyone, but I will take a jab at the following mindset that clearly many people are having lately. The idea that JUST because you are higher realm rank means it should be an automatic "win" in a 1v1 scenario, is clearly one of the stupidest things I have been observing throughout this discussion. There are ways to deal with a Minstrel's pet, despite Minstrel's release. There are some classes that can shut down a Minstrel well that doesn't require an IQ of Einstein. If you are so concerned about Minstrels and your own 1v1 experience, perhaps you should consider re-rolling into a class that can deal with them more efficiently. There is no EZ mode vs a skilled Minstrel. RA's or not. Just because you are a higher rank does not mean you are higher-skilled. If you go up a skilled Minstrel, you better be just as skilled with your own class. What do you think you are? A skald?
Fri 7 Feb 2020 3:40 PM by keen
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:41 AM
Since the sm got an intercept nerf (because people were crying a lot about that like we see that on minstrel as well)
SM got fixed since intercept was wrongly implemented and changed to live like behaviour.
Minstrel pets work already live like.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 3:51 PM by Sepplord
keen wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 3:40 PM
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:41 AM
Since the sm got an intercept nerf (because people were crying a lot about that like we see that on minstrel as well)
SM got fixed since intercept was wrongly implemented and changed to live like behaviour.
Minstrel pets work already live like.

AFAIK the damage SM pets recieved was intentionally decreased in an earlier patch. That was what made it problematic and was changed to live values after a lot of whining
Fri 7 Feb 2020 4:58 PM by MrWolf
keen wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 3:40 PM
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:41 AM
Since the sm got an intercept nerf (because people were crying a lot about that like we see that on minstrel as well)

Minstrel pets work already live like.

U can repeat this until your death. Does not mean it is correct or should not be fixed.
Minstrel "ability" to release the pet to break it from CC is something more like a bug than a "feature".
Fri 7 Feb 2020 5:19 PM by mattymc
Arkiluth wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:56 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:33 PM
Isavyr wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 4:03 PM
The problem is that the pet is high HP, high resist, (in some cases) high damage, and typically cannot be CC'd--the idea of a pet being CC immune is bad design. As long as CC of pet is as easy as everyone else, I want minstrels to have high-level pets. It's a uniqueness of DAOC that shouldn't be removed.

I'd like to see Teiloh address why this bad design should remain, beyond that it's already existed (so did Group Purge, which was an idiotic ability and Thank God it's gone).

Why is it bad design just because you say it's bad design? Theurg pets have the same CC immunity (they can be stunned, like Minstrel pets). It's counter-intuitive, as in losing charm shouldn't help the charmer, but it's one of those quirks of the game that Mythic eventually built around as balance. The Minstrel has a lot of quirks, almost all of which hurt the class and Alb by extension, the charm trick is one of the few that actually help ... sometimes.

But realistically dropping charm does have its costs, you need to leash your pet so it gets off your target. 1v1 this is less important but most of the classes with root or mez are going to get ****ed by a class that can spam instants (they would get ****ed even harder by a Skald, which is actually an EZmode class) anyway.
Agreed. Skalds are ridiculously dangerous 1v1, and it's an extremely EASY class to play. Minstrels, on the other hand, have to do magic tricks with their hands and micro-manage in order to be effective. What we see here are people being mowed down by perhaps a hand full of highly talented minstrels and claiming the class is broken.

The Minstrel is a class where Skill really comes into play and is not EZ mode (Skald). And as I said in my previous post, Minstrel's role in Alb acts as a balancing factor against Mids and Hibs. Nerf the Minstrel more, and we will see moe Skalds and even more Nightshades and SB's camping ALb religiously, with no class to keep numbers in check. Minstrels bring balance. Scouts are trash on this server (even with STOP skill), Infiltrators are mediocre compared to NightShades, and Minstrels are really the only class that can keep Skalds in place.

Skalds ARE EZ mode, but a Skilled Skald can take out a Skilled Minstrel if played right. Low skilled players will flop on their minstrels. That is a fact. There is a reason why Mythic put the Minstrel quirks in place. The Minstrel is a High Risk (Micromanaging) / High Reward class. The minstrel is not recommended for low skilled players who wish to 1v1. Having said that, this game is not all about 1v1, it's about Realm vs Realm. Minstrels have a place in that role, and people here complaining about the class is playing with some serious game balance mechanics, not just about one class. Mythic understood the big picture, I hope Devs on this server do as well.

This level of Fraudelenc can not go unchallenged ---- its crazy --- well played PETSTREL with RED pet or even a powerful OJ pet which , in effect can't be CC'd <regardless of the silliness that this is hard to accomplish --- it isnt> should only actually lose a true 1v1 if they screw up.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 5:44 PM by Arkiluth
mattymc wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 5:19 PM
Arkiluth wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:56 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:33 PM
Why is it bad design just because you say it's bad design? Theurg pets have the same CC immunity (they can be stunned, like Minstrel pets). It's counter-intuitive, as in losing charm shouldn't help the charmer, but it's one of those quirks of the game that Mythic eventually built around as balance. The Minstrel has a lot of quirks, almost all of which hurt the class and Alb by extension, the charm trick is one of the few that actually help ... sometimes.

But realistically dropping charm does have its costs, you need to leash your pet so it gets off your target. 1v1 this is less important but most of the classes with root or mez are going to get ****ed by a class that can spam instants (they would get ****ed even harder by a Skald, which is actually an EZmode class) anyway.
Agreed. Skalds are ridiculously dangerous 1v1, and it's an extremely EASY class to play. Minstrels, on the other hand, have to do magic tricks with their hands and micro-manage in order to be effective. What we see here are people being mowed down by perhaps a hand full of highly talented minstrels and claiming the class is broken.

The Minstrel is a class where Skill really comes into play and is not EZ mode (Skald). And as I said in my previous post, Minstrel's role in Alb acts as a balancing factor against Mids and Hibs. Nerf the Minstrel more, and we will see moe Skalds and even more Nightshades and SB's camping ALb religiously, with no class to keep numbers in check. Minstrels bring balance. Scouts are trash on this server (even with STOP skill), Infiltrators are mediocre compared to NightShades, and Minstrels are really the only class that can keep Skalds in place.

Skalds ARE EZ mode, but a Skilled Skald can take out a Skilled Minstrel if played right. Low skilled players will flop on their minstrels. That is a fact. There is a reason why Mythic put the Minstrel quirks in place. The Minstrel is a High Risk (Micromanaging) / High Reward class. The minstrel is not recommended for low skilled players who wish to 1v1. Having said that, this game is not all about 1v1, it's about Realm vs Realm. Minstrels have a place in that role, and people here complaining about the class is playing with some serious game balance mechanics, not just about one class. Mythic understood the big picture, I hope Devs on this server do as well.

This level of Fraudelenc can not go unchallenged ---- its crazy --- well played PETSTREL with RED pet or even a powerful OJ pet which , in effect can't be CC'd <regardless of the silliness that this is hard to accomplish --- it isnt> should only actually lose a true 1v1 if they screw up.
Your "challenge" basically is to say that minstrels with red pets never lose? That's it? With a response that lacks any detail or substance, it's difficult to appropriately give you a response that you deserve.

Can you elaborate further, please? As my position on my original post remains as is, given your argument that red pets are presumed to be an automatic win. To which I completely disagree with. Any player who is outplayed by a red pet minstrel will lose if their skill set does not match that of the minstrel or they are not the right counter to a Minstrel's class choice (rock/paper/scissor). A skilled skald can win the fight. A skald who's in "auto" mode and of low skill will lose., regardless of his or her rank if the skillset does not match that of the Minstrels. If the Minstrel is of low skill rank, it will be an easy kill for a well-played Skald or even a low skilled skald (less to micromanage).

Your claim that any minstrel with a red pet has "EZ" mode on for themselves is what I really see as "Fraudelenc". I am happy for you, as I honestly believe you have never played the live servers. If you think Minstrel's are powerful on this server... then you are very lucky to not have played live recently or in the past.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 6:01 PM by Arkiluth
I was curious about @teiloh 's responses in this thread. As it turns out, @teiloh seems to frequently troll these forums pushing for nerfs against classes he particularly tends to play against using slander, insults, and derogatory remarks. A quick search for his name on these forums will point that out. I share for others who wish to partake in these discussions to take into consideration when reading his posts or wishing to respond to his posts.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 7:31 PM by The Skies Asunder
I have been keeping up with this post on and off, and there are some fine arguments on both sides. The way I see it, one class will always be the best in a 1v1 situation regardless of balancing, because this game is not mirrored. I think that class just happens to be minstrel, and this isn't a new development, as they have been for nearly two decades. As a class in a FG, they are basically fine. The CC immunity in small/solo is the biggest problem, and since that is usually all I play anymore, I despise minstrels. Do I think the pet CC should change? Yeah, probably. Do I think having a red/purple pet is ridiculous? Yeah, probably. Is the class overpowered as a whole? No, probably not. It just happens to be great at 1v1 and small man. The game isn't balanced around that though, and that's fine. I have had plenty of fun 1v1, and smallman fights with minstrels despite all of this (Nauglamir *spelling*, and Gwed being the two that stick out the most).

It sucks feeling like you have no chance at all of winning a fight before it even starts, so I normally avoid minstrels at almost all costs. However, even if the pet was nerfed for the CC reasons, minstrel would still be the king of 1v1, and everyone would still cry. I am impartial either way, as I likely wouldn't be able to kill them even if they were nerfed lol.

P.S. Is it mostly solo stealths who hate minstrel? I feel like it might be, but I have no data to show that. If that is correct though, you still won't win, even if the pet gets nerfed.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:38 PM by teiloh
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:41 AM
Thats not true and you guys know that. As long as the minstrel has speed he has a place in groups regardless of his toolkit. Or do you really think a Skald is such a great addition in caster setups?

Furthermore you wanna say that the minstrel has to be overpowered to ensure the stability of albion? Come on, thats ridiculous.

Since the sm got an intercept nerf (because people were crying a lot about that like we see that on minstrel as well) i'm pretty sure that the minstrel will get a nerf soon, too. Even if its true and the minstrel needs tons of skills ( i doubt about that because of macros, AHK and so on ) the state of the minstrel is way too good on phoenix. If you don't want to see that, maybe you just don't want to lose the easy mode. Even decent minstrels are just way too hard with the pet and their toolkit.

SMs didn't get a nerf. They got a fix, the devs tested live rates and matched it.

Minstrels on the other hand has gotten 20+ nerfs.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:39 PM by teiloh
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 7:31 PM
P.S. Is it mostly solo stealths who hate minstrel? I feel like it might be, but I have no data to show that. If that is correct though, you still won't win, even if the pet gets nerfed.

Cadebrennus, Loki, the OP are all solo stealthers.

U can repeat this until your death. Does not mean it is correct or should not be fixed.
Minstrel "ability" to release the pet to break it from CC is something more like a bug than a "feature".

A bug that is deliberately not fixed for 20+ years becomes a feature.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:54 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:39 PM
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 7:31 PM
P.S. Is it mostly solo stealths who hate minstrel? I feel like it might be, but I have no data to show that. If that is correct though, you still won't win, even if the pet gets nerfed.

Cadebrennus, Loki, the OP are all solo stealthers.

U can repeat this until your death. Does not mean it is correct or should not be fixed.
Minstrel "ability" to release the pet to break it from CC is something more like a bug than a "feature".

A bug that is deliberately not fixed for 20+ years becomes a feature.

rofl cade is not a solo stealther. he doesnt play on this server and hasnt for a long time. hes like rank 4 or something lol.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:55 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:38 PM
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:41 AM
Thats not true and you guys know that. As long as the minstrel has speed he has a place in groups regardless of his toolkit. Or do you really think a Skald is such a great addition in caster setups?

Furthermore you wanna say that the minstrel has to be overpowered to ensure the stability of albion? Come on, thats ridiculous.

Since the sm got an intercept nerf (because people were crying a lot about that like we see that on minstrel as well) i'm pretty sure that the minstrel will get a nerf soon, too. Even if its true and the minstrel needs tons of skills ( i doubt about that because of macros, AHK and so on ) the state of the minstrel is way too good on phoenix. If you don't want to see that, maybe you just don't want to lose the easy mode. Even decent minstrels are just way too hard with the pet and their toolkit.

SMs didn't get a nerf. They got a fix, the devs tested live rates and matched it.

Minstrels on the other hand has gotten 20+ nerfs.

this is ridiculous and is splitting hairs at best. they got knocked down a notch (as they should have been), they were nerfed.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:55 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:54 PM
rofl cade is not a solo stealther. he doesnt play on this server and hasnt for a long time. hes like rank 4 or something lol.

afaik he's a shitty ranger that never made it to rr4 on live and here was also a shitty ranger that became a shitty merc
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:57 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 9:54 PM
rofl cade is not a solo stealther. he doesnt play on this server and hasnt for a long time. hes like rank 4 or something lol.

afaik he's a shitty ranger that never made it to rr4 on live and here was also a shitty ranger that became a shitty merc


this is ridiculous and is splitting hairs at best. they got knocked down a notch (as they should have been), they were nerfed.

It's not. This shard is advertised at 1.65+. That means everyone, for the most part, accepts 1.65 by consensus as a balance state to emulate. There have been several major departures from that but we haven't really discussed leaving it altogether.

A bug fix therefore is solved with little discussion, through the bugtracker. Actual changes to 1.65 are usually discussed on "Planned Changes" with a rationale behind it.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:40 PM by Arkiluth
It's unfortunate that a thread of 31 pages post was due in large part to a FEW Solo Stealthers being upset and what appears to have gotten Devs seriously thinking of nerfing Minstrels even further than they have already been nerfed.

I understand that it is a sensitive topic for the Dev Team, as maintaining a high population count is important. However, I hope Devs take into account much of the things said and mentioned towards the end of this thread. Further nurfing minstrels because Mid and Hib Assasins need higher skill to bring down a higher skill minstrel would mean further imbalances on this server across the three realms.

I implore that Devs remember that Minstrels have received major nerfs, and that Minstrels (and their tool kit along with mechanism) were put in place by Mythic for a reason. Nerf minstrels, and you will see a higher amount of stealthers in RVR, which will cause an imbalance and jeopardize the server population in the long run.

I implore to look at the big picture via RVR balance, not 1v1 balance against stealther who have yet figured out to bring down their minstrel counterparts, despite the state of Minstrels not changing much since this game was released some 20 years ago. Today, on this server, scouts are not viable (despite the introduced STOP ability), minstrels were nerfed, and infiltrators are nothing but sub-par compared to their stealth counterparts (especially nightshades).

While the posts in this thread is a lot, much of it is without substance and just "whines" if you will, by the very people Minstrels are designed to keep in check.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:46 PM by Riac
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:40 PM
It's unfortunate that a thread of 38 pages post was due in large part to Solo Stealthers being upset and what appears to have gotten Devs seriously thinking of nerfing Minstrels even further than they have already been nerfed.

I understand that it is a sensitive topic for the Dev Team, as maintaining a high population count is important. However, I hope Devs take into account much of the things said and mentioned towards the end of this thread. Further surfing minstrels because Mid and Hib Assasins need higher skill to bring down a higher skill minstrel would mean further imbalances on this server across the three realms.

I implore that Devs remember that Minstrels have received major nerfs, and that Minstrels (and their tool kit along with mechanism) were put in place by Mythic for a reason. Nerf minstrels, and you will see a higher amount of stealthers in RVR, which will cause an imbalance and jeopardize the server population in the long run.

I implore to look at the big picture via RVR balance, not 1v1 balance against stealth who need to up their game to bring down their minstrel counterparts. Today, scouts are worthless, minstrels were nerfed, and infiltrators are nothing but sub-par compared to their stealth counterparts.

While the posts in this thread is a lot, much of it is without substance and just "whines" if you will, by the very people Minstrels are designed to keep in check.

not true, i believe one of the main contentions in this thread is a person complaining about the mezz break portion of the pet charm and its high health/ resist rate relative to other pets in this game as well as being able to charm these high lvl pets at such a low realm level. something that was previously only available to decently realm ranked mins, and hes talking about all of this from a grouping pov. he does have a point imo, being able to clear CC off your pet with no sort of downside does seem pretty wild, and to assume that mythic had some sort of master plan or were expert at balancing is a bit of a stretch as well. they built this thing in like 18 months or something.
before you could have argued that only few skillfull ppl could hold pets and do all this while still doing their job and i would have agreed. however, ppl have figured out how to make some pretty useful macros that make all of that pretty easy stuff.

the 1v1 position has been relegated to the fact that all pet classes are strong in 1v1 situations and no one seems to be disputing that.

i disagree with infs being subpar.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:52 PM by Arkiluth
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:46 PM
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:40 PM
It's unfortunate that a thread of 38 pages post was due in large part to Solo Stealthers being upset and what appears to have gotten Devs seriously thinking of nerfing Minstrels even further than they have already been nerfed.

I understand that it is a sensitive topic for the Dev Team, as maintaining a high population count is important. However, I hope Devs take into account much of the things said and mentioned towards the end of this thread. Further surfing minstrels because Mid and Hib Assasins need higher skill to bring down a higher skill minstrel would mean further imbalances on this server across the three realms.

I implore that Devs remember that Minstrels have received major nerfs, and that Minstrels (and their tool kit along with mechanism) were put in place by Mythic for a reason. Nerf minstrels, and you will see a higher amount of stealthers in RVR, which will cause an imbalance and jeopardize the server population in the long run.

I implore to look at the big picture via RVR balance, not 1v1 balance against stealth who need to up their game to bring down their minstrel counterparts. Today, scouts are worthless, minstrels were nerfed, and infiltrators are nothing but sub-par compared to their stealth counterparts.

While the posts in this thread is a lot, much of it is without substance and just "whines" if you will, by the very people Minstrels are designed to keep in check.

not true, i believe one of the main contentions in this thread is a person complaining about the mezz break portion of the pet charm and its high health/ resist rate relative to other pets in this game, and hes talking about it from a grouping pov. he does have a point imo, being able to clear CC off your pet with no sort of downside does seem pretty wild, and to assume that mythic had some sort of master plan or were expert at balancing is a bit of a stretch as well. they built this thing in like 18 months or something.

the 1v1 position has been relegated to the fact that all pet classes are strong in 1v1 situations and no one seems to be disputing that.

i disagree with infs being subpar.
We can agree to disagree on Infiltrators being subpar compared to NS's and even SB's as I do not want to deviate from the topic.

I would argue that the minstrel's arsenal, and game mechanics, were put in place as intended. (the notion that Mythic could not alter the code to change it is silly). And while I disagreed that minstrels needed any nerfs, they were already seriously nerfed on this server. Pet specific nerfs in which the Devs here have already acknowledged they did in response to player feedback. May I add, they were BIG nerfs. Have people forgotten how Minstrels are/were on live servers?

The claim that minstrels cannot be beaten 1v1 because of their pet is... disheartening to read. I blame it on player skillset. This game has been out for how long now? And only now are we "discovering" something here? No. This is a player skill issue. This is a character class that is High Skill/Risk and High Reward. Not many people can play minstrel effectively, and those are the ones who complain about them.

I am not trying to be rude to anyone here, but in many games, some characters WILL be stronger than others but WILL require a higher degree of gaming sense and skill set to pull off. This is normal. Some characters are easy to play and can still pack a punch (Skalds). This is normal in games. An example of this would be Blizzard's very popular Overwatch. Take Genji and Soldier76. Which one is more deadly? Which one is harder to play? (just an example). Both are needed to maintain balance.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:09 PM by Riac
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:52 PM
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:46 PM
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:40 PM
It's unfortunate that a thread of 38 pages post was due in large part to Solo Stealthers being upset and what appears to have gotten Devs seriously thinking of nerfing Minstrels even further than they have already been nerfed.

I understand that it is a sensitive topic for the Dev Team, as maintaining a high population count is important. However, I hope Devs take into account much of the things said and mentioned towards the end of this thread. Further surfing minstrels because Mid and Hib Assasins need higher skill to bring down a higher skill minstrel would mean further imbalances on this server across the three realms.

I implore that Devs remember that Minstrels have received major nerfs, and that Minstrels (and their tool kit along with mechanism) were put in place by Mythic for a reason. Nerf minstrels, and you will see a higher amount of stealthers in RVR, which will cause an imbalance and jeopardize the server population in the long run.

I implore to look at the big picture via RVR balance, not 1v1 balance against stealth who need to up their game to bring down their minstrel counterparts. Today, scouts are worthless, minstrels were nerfed, and infiltrators are nothing but sub-par compared to their stealth counterparts.

While the posts in this thread is a lot, much of it is without substance and just "whines" if you will, by the very people Minstrels are designed to keep in check.

not true, i believe one of the main contentions in this thread is a person complaining about the mezz break portion of the pet charm and its high health/ resist rate relative to other pets in this game, and hes talking about it from a grouping pov. he does have a point imo, being able to clear CC off your pet with no sort of downside does seem pretty wild, and to assume that mythic had some sort of master plan or were expert at balancing is a bit of a stretch as well. they built this thing in like 18 months or something.

the 1v1 position has been relegated to the fact that all pet classes are strong in 1v1 situations and no one seems to be disputing that.

i disagree with infs being subpar.
We can agree to disagree on Infiltrators being subpar compared to NS's and even SB's as I do not want to deviate from the topic.

I would argue that the minstrel's arsenal, and game mechanics, were put in place as intended. (the notion that Mythic could not alter the code to change it is silly). And while I disagreed that minstrels needed any nerfs, they were already seriously nerfed on this server. Pet specific nerfs in which the Devs here have already acknowledged they did in response to player feedback. May I add, they were BIG nerfs. Have people forgotten how Minstrels are/were on live servers?

The claim that minstrels cannot be beaten 1v1 because of their pet is... disheartening to read. I blame it on player skillset. This game has been out for how long now? And only now are we "discovering" something here? No. This is a player skill issue. This is a character class that is High Skill/Risk and High Reward. Not many people can play minstrel effectively, and those are the ones who complain about them.

I am not trying to be rude to anyone here, but in many games, some characters WILL be stronger than others but require a higher gaming sense and skill set to pull off. This is normal.

yea, they HAD to be nerfed. imagine those pets in this servers rule set especially pre-hp buff, that would have just been absurd lol. their pets are still quite good though. however, the complaint mentioned above didnt touch on their dmg, it was touching on their utility. just because it is nerfed when compared to its live counterparts is a pretty poor argument. every class in this game is weaker than its live counterpart.

they can certainly be beaten 1v1 but they also have a lot of tools that allow them to be extremely annoying and cheesey (such as sosing away and just being annoying af running in a circle around you as the pet kills you) no one is fond of those things, and its the solo visibles that have it the roughest. as a stealther i can just choose not to engage. as a visible youre going to be forced to fight him and if you are winning they will probably just run away as you move away injured and no speed lol. idk what the solution that is, pretty much why i dont play a visible.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:13 PM by Arkiluth
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:09 PM
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:52 PM
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:46 PM
not true, i believe one of the main contentions in this thread is a person complaining about the mezz break portion of the pet charm and its high health/ resist rate relative to other pets in this game, and hes talking about it from a grouping pov. he does have a point imo, being able to clear CC off your pet with no sort of downside does seem pretty wild, and to assume that mythic had some sort of master plan or were expert at balancing is a bit of a stretch as well. they built this thing in like 18 months or something.

the 1v1 position has been relegated to the fact that all pet classes are strong in 1v1 situations and no one seems to be disputing that.

i disagree with infs being subpar.
We can agree to disagree on Infiltrators being subpar compared to NS's and even SB's as I do not want to deviate from the topic.

I would argue that the minstrel's arsenal, and game mechanics, were put in place as intended. (the notion that Mythic could not alter the code to change it is silly). And while I disagreed that minstrels needed any nerfs, they were already seriously nerfed on this server. Pet specific nerfs in which the Devs here have already acknowledged they did in response to player feedback. May I add, they were BIG nerfs. Have people forgotten how Minstrels are/were on live servers?

The claim that minstrels cannot be beaten 1v1 because of their pet is... disheartening to read. I blame it on player skillset. This game has been out for how long now? And only now are we "discovering" something here? No. This is a player skill issue. This is a character class that is High Skill/Risk and High Reward. Not many people can play minstrel effectively, and those are the ones who complain about them.

I am not trying to be rude to anyone here, but in many games, some characters WILL be stronger than others but require a higher gaming sense and skill set to pull off. This is normal.

yea, they HAD to be nerfed. imagine those pets in this servers rule set especially pre-hp buff, that would have just been absurd lol. their pets are still quite good though. however, the complaint mentioned above didnt touch on their dmg, it was touching on their utility. just because it is nerfed when compared to its live counterparts is a pretty poor argument. every class in this game is weaker than its live counterpart.

they can certainly be beaten 1v1 but they also have a lot of tools that allow them to be extremely annoying and cheesey (such as sosing away and just being annoying af running in a circle around you as the pet kills you) no one is fond of those things, and its the solo visibles that have it the roughest. as a stealther i can just choose not to engage. as a visible youre going to be forced to fight him and if you are winning they will probably just run away as you move away injured and no speed lol. idk what the solution that is, pretty much why i dont play a visible.

Much can be said about Skalds in this comparison. I understand where you are coming from, however, but that reasoning (its annoying) does not warrant the need to nerf a class that already took big nerfs, in a realm who's archer class is just not viable. It would bring great disbalance to the server.

And as I said before, the pet mechanics were put in place bt Mythic for a reason, and not once did they remove due to realm balance, or GAME balance. It's not a bug, it's a hardcoded game mechanic.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:20 PM by Riac
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:13 PM
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:09 PM
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:52 PM
We can agree to disagree on Infiltrators being subpar compared to NS's and even SB's as I do not want to deviate from the topic.

I would argue that the minstrel's arsenal, and game mechanics, were put in place as intended. (the notion that Mythic could not alter the code to change it is silly). And while I disagreed that minstrels needed any nerfs, they were already seriously nerfed on this server. Pet specific nerfs in which the Devs here have already acknowledged they did in response to player feedback. May I add, they were BIG nerfs. Have people forgotten how Minstrels are/were on live servers?

The claim that minstrels cannot be beaten 1v1 because of their pet is... disheartening to read. I blame it on player skillset. This game has been out for how long now? And only now are we "discovering" something here? No. This is a player skill issue. This is a character class that is High Skill/Risk and High Reward. Not many people can play minstrel effectively, and those are the ones who complain about them.

I am not trying to be rude to anyone here, but in many games, some characters WILL be stronger than others but require a higher gaming sense and skill set to pull off. This is normal.

yea, they HAD to be nerfed. imagine those pets in this servers rule set especially pre-hp buff, that would have just been absurd lol. their pets are still quite good though. however, the complaint mentioned above didnt touch on their dmg, it was touching on their utility. just because it is nerfed when compared to its live counterparts is a pretty poor argument. every class in this game is weaker than its live counterpart.

they can certainly be beaten 1v1 but they also have a lot of tools that allow them to be extremely annoying and cheesey (such as sosing away and just being annoying af running in a circle around you as the pet kills you) no one is fond of those things, and its the solo visibles that have it the roughest. as a stealther i can just choose not to engage. as a visible youre going to be forced to fight him and if you are winning they will probably just run away as you move away injured and no speed lol. idk what the solution that is, pretty much why i dont play a visible.

Much can be said about Skalds in this comparison. I understand where you are coming from, however, but that reasoning (its annoying) does not warrant the need to nerf a class that already took big nerfs, in a realm who's archer class is just not viable. It would bring great disbalance to the server.

And as I said before, the pet mechanics were put in place bt Mythic for a reason, and not once did they remove due to realm balance, or GAME balance. It's not a bug, it's a hardcoded game mechanic.

i still think you are missing the point of the persons complaint, the utility of an unCCable pet in a group fight (and its superior defenses). also this powerful pet being available from rank 1 (which was not like that in live, since you are fond of the mythic had a reason aspect).

while i agree skalds are annoying. not sure what scouts have to do with any of this lol. tbh i wish all archer classes were useless.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:34 PM by Arkiluth
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:20 PM
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:13 PM
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:09 PM
yea, they HAD to be nerfed. imagine those pets in this servers rule set especially pre-hp buff, that would have just been absurd lol. their pets are still quite good though. however, the complaint mentioned above didnt touch on their dmg, it was touching on their utility. just because it is nerfed when compared to its live counterparts is a pretty poor argument. every class in this game is weaker than its live counterpart.

they can certainly be beaten 1v1 but they also have a lot of tools that allow them to be extremely annoying and cheesey (such as sosing away and just being annoying af running in a circle around you as the pet kills you) no one is fond of those things, and its the solo visibles that have it the roughest. as a stealther i can just choose not to engage. as a visible youre going to be forced to fight him and if you are winning they will probably just run away as you move away injured and no speed lol. idk what the solution that is, pretty much why i dont play a visible.

Much can be said about Skalds in this comparison. I understand where you are coming from, however, but that reasoning (its annoying) does not warrant the need to nerf a class that already took big nerfs, in a realm who's archer class is just not viable. It would bring great disbalance to the server.

And as I said before, the pet mechanics were put in place bt Mythic for a reason, and not once did they remove due to realm balance, or GAME balance. It's not a bug, it's a hardcoded game mechanic.

i still think you are missing the point of the persons complaint, the utility of an unCCable pet in a group fight (and its superior defenses). also this powerful pet being available from rank 1 (which was not like that in live, since you are fond of the mythic had a reason aspect).

while i agree skalds are annoying. not sure what scouts have to do with any of this lol. tbh i wish all archer classes were useless.

Therin lies the issue. Scouts, Skalds, and other classes matter because I am not fixated on individual 1v1 matchups. I'm focused on realm vs realm game balance.

In regards to minstrel game mechanics, as I mentioned before, I believe it is working as intended by Mythic. It's how minstrels been played since game launch. There is nothing new about this here. It is hard coded into the game.
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:39 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:46 PM
not true, i believe one of the main contentions in this thread is a person complaining about the mezz break portion of the pet charm and its high health/ resist rate relative to other pets in this game as well as being able to charm these high lvl pets at such a low realm level. something that was previously only available to decently realm ranked mins, and hes talking about all of this from a grouping pov. he does have a point imo, being able to clear CC off your pet with no sort of downside does seem pretty wild, and to assume that mythic had some sort of master plan or were expert at balancing is a bit of a stretch as well. they built this thing in like 18 months or something.
before you could have argued that only few skillfull ppl could hold pets and do all this while still doing their job and i would have agreed. however, ppl have figured out how to make some pretty useful macros that make all of that pretty easy stuff.

the 1v1 position has been relegated to the fact that all pet classes are strong in 1v1 situations and no one seems to be disputing that.

i disagree with infs being subpar.

Handling the pet is more than just charm and recharming, which anyone can do fairly easily. Yes, it's also a huge hassle out of combat but that's not the point.

Handling a pet, that is leashed, and that you have to retarget with 2-3 keystrokes on a class that already needs to change targets every second is not nearly as easy as people are making it out to be. This is a class that needs to swap between casting and melee and pull off side snares as well as doing several 180s with flute mez while tapping ablative chant.

On top of that you need to position your pet in a way that its available to clear your CC as well as work the enemy backline - e.g., even the release/recharm is not 100%, there can be significant hitches like BD from your Theurg impeding a root break.

their pets are still quite good though.

An Ellyl sage nukes for 60-80 every 3+ seconds. That's not good. An Enchanter pet does 150-200 or so every 2-3 seconds, and they snare. The argument isn't that they are weaker than their live counterpart, they're weaker than OG 1.65, which is the key reference point of this server. I've heard mixed messages from the devs on whether the nerfs were intentional or not. Sounds like there was a lot of internal disagreement there.

Minstrel Charm, for what it is, is not nearly as strong as people are saying it is. There are plenty of other abilities that would have provide utility in groups, like BD lifetap or even Ench DPS debuff.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:02 AM by Riac
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:34 PM
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:20 PM
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:13 PM
Much can be said about Skalds in this comparison. I understand where you are coming from, however, but that reasoning (its annoying) does not warrant the need to nerf a class that already took big nerfs, in a realm who's archer class is just not viable. It would bring great disbalance to the server.

And as I said before, the pet mechanics were put in place bt Mythic for a reason, and not once did they remove due to realm balance, or GAME balance. It's not a bug, it's a hardcoded game mechanic.

i still think you are missing the point of the persons complaint, the utility of an unCCable pet in a group fight (and its superior defenses). also this powerful pet being available from rank 1 (which was not like that in live, since you are fond of the mythic had a reason aspect).

while i agree skalds are annoying. not sure what scouts have to do with any of this lol. tbh i wish all archer classes were useless.

Therin lies the issue. Scouts, Skalds, and other classes matter because I am not fixated on individual 1v1 matchups. I'm focused on realm vs realm game balance.

In regards to minstrel game mechanics, as I mentioned before, I believe it is working as intended by Mythic. It's how minstrels been played since game launch. There is nothing new about this here. It is hard coded into the game.

literally them being able to charm these pets from rank 1 is not how mythic had it working and is unique to this server lol. LITERALLY
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:04 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 11:39 PM
Riac wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 10:46 PM
not true, i believe one of the main contentions in this thread is a person complaining about the mezz break portion of the pet charm and its high health/ resist rate relative to other pets in this game as well as being able to charm these high lvl pets at such a low realm level. something that was previously only available to decently realm ranked mins, and hes talking about all of this from a grouping pov. he does have a point imo, being able to clear CC off your pet with no sort of downside does seem pretty wild, and to assume that mythic had some sort of master plan or were expert at balancing is a bit of a stretch as well. they built this thing in like 18 months or something.
before you could have argued that only few skillfull ppl could hold pets and do all this while still doing their job and i would have agreed. however, ppl have figured out how to make some pretty useful macros that make all of that pretty easy stuff.

the 1v1 position has been relegated to the fact that all pet classes are strong in 1v1 situations and no one seems to be disputing that.

i disagree with infs being subpar.

Handling the pet is more than just charm and recharming, which anyone can do fairly easily. Yes, it's also a huge hassle out of combat but that's not the point.

Handling a pet, that is leashed, and that you have to retarget with 2-3 keystrokes on a class that already needs to change targets every second is not nearly as easy as people are making it out to be. This is a class that needs to swap between casting and melee and pull off side snares as well as doing several 180s with flute mez while tapping ablative chant.

On top of that you need to position your pet in a way that its available to clear your CC as well as work the enemy backline - e.g., even the release/recharm is not 100%, there can be significant hitches like BD from your Theurg impeding a root break.

their pets are still quite good though.

An Ellyl sage nukes for 60-80 every 3+ seconds. That's not good. An Enchanter pet does 150-200 or so every 2-3 seconds, and they snare. The argument isn't that they are weaker than their live counterpart, they're weaker than OG 1.65, which is the key reference point of this server. I've heard mixed messages from the devs on whether the nerfs were intentional or not. Sounds like there was a lot of internal disagreement there.

Minstrel Charm, for what it is, is not nearly as strong as people are saying it is. There are plenty of other abilities that would have provide utility in groups, like BD lifetap or even Ench DPS debuff.

i dont know much about the sages or w/e but i do know about the black horses and the one named pixie thing they run around with in emain and both of those mobs are quite good and hit hard.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:08 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:04 AM
i dont know much about the sages or w/e but i do know about the black horses and the one named pixie thing they run around with in emain and both of those mobs are quite good and hit hard.

Pookas? Based on the damage charts I'm seeing they prob do around 50-70ish DPS, which is respectable, but I would be surprised if Enchanter pets weren't close and if BDs didn't blow them out of the water.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:12 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:08 AM
Riac wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:04 AM
i dont know much about the sages or w/e but i do know about the black horses and the one named pixie thing they run around with in emain and both of those mobs are quite good and hit hard.

Pookas? Based on the damage charts I'm seeing they prob do around 50-70ish DPS, which is respectable, but I would be surprised if Enchanter pets weren't close and if BDs didn't blow them out of the water.

i dont think they are pookas. really its the named pixie i hate the most. its normally red or purple and hits hard. i generally dont fuck with them when they have that pet out (i dont fuck with them much in general, its not worth using my purge on someone who is most likely going to sos away anyways.). also you are comparing this to actual pet classes whose identity and job is that of a damage dealer. i dont really see the minst as fitting that same sort of roll.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:27 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:12 AM
i dont think they are pookas. really its the named pixie i hate the most. its normally red or purple and hits hard. i generally dont fuck with them when they have that pet out (i dont fuck with them much in general, its not worth using my purge on someone who is most likely going to sos away anyways.). also you are comparing this to actual pet classes whose identity and job is that of a damage dealer. i dont really see the minst as fitting that same sort of roll.

The Minstrel needs to use up all their spec points for a pet and it's their only exceptional skill. Enchanters are MAs/nukers in the meta, pet classes next. They're also better interrupters than Minstrels just by virtue of that one DPS debuff - which was acknowledged by Mythic as a bug not once but twice, but left in as a feature here.

Meanwhile "bugs" that favor Alb, which were acknowledged as features by Mythic - like pet DoTs interrupting every tick - were taken out.

To be frank pets have been a way for a faction of designers/devs to shoehorn in Alb nerfs/Mib buffs without the notice of the community at large.

Honestly if you put BDs or Enchanters in Alb and gave them Speed 5, the Minstrel population would probably drop by over 90%.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 2:30 AM by gotwqqd
If the pro minstrel crowd didn’t respond this thread would be smaller and draw less attention
Sat 8 Feb 2020 3:02 AM by teiloh
gotwqqd wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 2:30 AM
If the pro minstrel crowd didn’t respond this thread would be smaller and draw less attention

You're acting like these same 5 cultists haven't been spamming this topic for the last 19 years on several different boards. They won't stop until they're decisively put down.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:35 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:27 AM
Meanwhile "bugs" that favor Alb, which were acknowledged as features by Mythic - like pet DoTs interrupting every tick - were taken out.

Hard to have discussion with someone that sees this type of thing as reasonable. The class Teiloh plays should be the strongest, and the nerfs are too much already--they're almost balanced and it's not fun~

As you said, "the damage nerfs really didn't do anything other than make the Minstrel less fun in groups to no real detriment to their role as interrupters." In other words, the nerfs weren't key to balancing the minstrel--I agree with you. But it was a safer route for the Phoenix devs because it was more live-like, and they didn't go against a broken, but classic mechanic (releasing pets to break all CC).
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:44 AM by Nauglamir
teiloh wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:08 AM
Riac wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 1:04 AM
i dont know much about the sages or w/e but i do know about the black horses and the one named pixie thing they run around with in emain and both of those mobs are quite good and hit hard.

Pookas? Based on the damage charts I'm seeing they prob do around 50-70ish DPS, which is respectable, but I would be surprised if Enchanter pets weren't close and if BDs didn't blow them out of the water.

Haven't seen a Pookha in the Phoenix frontier yet, but I may have missed em.
Maybe he's once seen a Barguest and took it for a horse? :-P
Sat 8 Feb 2020 2:09 PM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:35 AM
Hard to have discussion with someone that sees this type of thing as reasonable. The class Teiloh plays should be the strongest, and the nerfs are too much already--they're almost balanced and it's not fun~

You'll have to justify why BD and Enchanter debuffs interrupting is a feature, even though acknowledged by Mythic as a bug - twice.

While pet DoTs interrupting is "fixed"/nerfed, even though acknowledged by Mythic as a feature - twice.

If you think recharm/release is a bug then BD/Chant debuff interrupts are definitely bugs, as well.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 6:14 PM by mattymc
Arkiluth wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 5:44 PM
mattymc wrote:
Fri 7 Feb 2020 5:19 PM
Arkiluth wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 8:56 PM
Agreed. Skalds are ridiculously dangerous 1v1, and it's an extremely EASY class to play. Minstrels, on the other hand, have to do magic tricks with their hands and micro-manage in order to be effective. What we see here are people being mowed down by perhaps a hand full of highly talented minstrels and claiming the class is broken.

The Minstrel is a class where Skill really comes into play and is not EZ mode (Skald). And as I said in my previous post, Minstrel's role in Alb acts as a balancing factor against Mids and Hibs. Nerf the Minstrel more, and we will see moe Skalds and even more Nightshades and SB's camping ALb religiously, with no class to keep numbers in check. Minstrels bring balance. Scouts are trash on this server (even with STOP skill), Infiltrators are mediocre compared to NightShades, and Minstrels are really the only class that can keep Skalds in place.

Skalds ARE EZ mode, but a Skilled Skald can take out a Skilled Minstrel if played right. Low skilled players will flop on their minstrels. That is a fact. There is a reason why Mythic put the Minstrel quirks in place. The Minstrel is a High Risk (Micromanaging) / High Reward class. The minstrel is not recommended for low skilled players who wish to 1v1. Having said that, this game is not all about 1v1, it's about Realm vs Realm. Minstrels have a place in that role, and people here complaining about the class is playing with some serious game balance mechanics, not just about one class. Mythic understood the big picture, I hope Devs on this server do as well.

This level of Fraudelenc can not go unchallenged ---- its crazy --- well played PETSTREL with RED pet or even a powerful OJ pet which , in effect can't be CC'd <regardless of the silliness that this is hard to accomplish --- it isnt> should only actually lose a true 1v1 if they screw up.
Your "challenge" basically is to say that minstrels with red pets never lose? That's it? With a response that lacks any detail or substance, it's difficult to appropriately give you a response that you deserve.

Can you elaborate further, please? As my position on my original post remains as is, given your argument that red pets are presumed to be an automatic win. To which I completely disagree with. Any player who is outplayed by a red pet minstrel will lose if their skill set does not match that of the minstrel or they are not the right counter to a Minstrel's class choice (rock/paper/scissor). A skilled skald can win the fight. A skald who's in "auto" mode and of low skill will lose., regardless of his or her rank if the skillset does not match that of the Minstrels. If the Minstrel is of low skill rank, it will be an easy kill for a well-played Skald or even a low skilled skald (less to micromanage).

Your claim that any minstrel with a red pet has "EZ" mode on for themselves is what I really see as "Fraudelenc". I am happy for you, as I honestly believe you have never played the live servers. If you think Minstrel's are powerful on this server... then you are very lucky to not have played live recently or in the past.

It matched the elaborate OMG Skaldsds are so much stronger argument and equated the substance and rigor of said argument --- any pet that simply cannot be CC'd out of the fight and is a constant and significant damage add <or outright damage dealer>that can constantly interrupt/damage etc and has significant hit points 9is a HUGE advantage --- the worst that should happen is you don't lose. There are pets that are certainly better if your fighting a main tank v. a caster, but I never found it to be game changing.
As for your statement "... as I honestly believe you have never played the live servers...; all I can do is laugh --- played every realm; every style seen every stupid move made by all the series of Devs --- I remember when archers on all realms were one shot killers, when thane hammers had a stun component and I cringe as I watch this server make the same mistake that they eventually fixed on the live servers with respect to animists.
Minstrel charm has always been a bad design, the fact that you , and others to be fair, don't want to loose and advantage is understandable --- it still should be changed.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:04 PM by teiloh
mattymc wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 6:14 PM
any pet that simply cannot be CC'd out of the fight and is a constant and significant damage add <or outright damage dealer>that can constantly interrupt/damage etc and has significant hit points 9is a HUGE advantage --- the worst that should happen is you don't lose. There are pets that are certainly better if your fighting a main tank v. a caster, but I never found it to be game changing.

See Lerox's post: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12029&p=95608#p95608

Here's some raw data on Phoenix melee pet DPS: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=7718&p=55425&hilit=granny#p55425

50-70 DPS (unbuffed vs. no resists) is not a "significant damage add." It's respectable 1v1, but it's like melee Warden DPS.

Ellyl sages nuke for 20-25 DPS as an example of what has been done to Minstrel pets through stealth nerfs first disguised as bugs.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:29 PM by teiloh
Level 21 BD caster pets, unbuffed, no resist debuff - by comparison

https://pastebin.com/92Vg8eL1
999 damage in 1:09s = 14.5 DPS


https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7702&p=55070&hilit=ellyll+sage#p55070
Ellyll sage damage: 1037 damage in 40 seconds = 25.925 DPS
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:27 PM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 2:09 PM
You'll have to justify why BD and Enchanter debuffs interrupting is a feature, even though acknowledged by Mythic as a bug - twice.

While pet DoTs interrupting is "fixed"/nerfed, even though acknowledged by Mythic as a feature - twice.

If you think recharm/release is a bug then BD/Chant debuff interrupts are definitely bugs, as well.

I don't hold any of Mythic's designs as sacred; I evaluate each design, intentional or not, as whether it's balanced and fits the larger DAOC frame-work. To that end, the BDs rupt is questionable as well, given they also have a lifetap on a 4s cooldown with 1500-range. The debuff should be casted, like every other elemental debuff in game--here it doesn't fit the DAOC framework whatsoever and is causing issues in combination with lowest cd rupt in game. Minstrels can only dream!

Light enchanter has fewer spells and is very niche, so I don't see balance problem here. It doesn't fit the DAOC framework though and to be consistent should probably be altered in some way, while keeping it relevant.

edit:
teiloh wrote: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7702&p=55070&hilit=ellyll+sage#p55070
Ellyll sage damage: 1037 damage in 40 seconds = 25.925 DPS

If true, that's too low, imo. While the minstrel isn't a damage dealer, I believe their pets should exert pressure (but not by being CC immune).
Sat 8 Feb 2020 9:32 PM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:27 PM
I don't hold any of Mythic's designs as sacred; I evaluate each design, intentional or not, as whether it's balanced and fits the larger DAOC frame-work. To that end, the BDs rupt is questionable as well, given they also have a lifetap on a 4s cooldown with 1500-range. The debuff should be casted, like every other elemental debuff in game--here it doesn't fit the DAOC framework whatsoever and is causing issues in combination with lowest cd rupt in game. Minstrels can only dream!

Light enchanter has fewer spells and is very niche, so I don't see balance problem here. It doesn't fit the DAOC framework though and to be consistent should probably be altered in some way, while keeping it relevant.

If true, that's too low, imo. While the minstrel isn't a damage dealer, I believe their pets should exert pressure (but not by being CC immune).

I think here you're saying you should take everything, bug or not, as a total package wrt to balance. Whether or not a class has a bugged or fixed feature should be irrelevant compared to its overall performance. For Light Enchanters, losing the DPS debuff interrupt would be a major loss. But the principle has always been that instas debuffs should not interrupt. So maybe in that same vein Light Chants would lose something and get something else.

IMO, the Minstrel is not performing exceptionally outside of 1v1 and the charm is a big hassle. I wouldn't mind your suggestion of potentially having a permanent charm of say 55-60 depending on rank, leaving out release/recharm, but a few other aspects of the Minstrel class would definitely need to be tightened up. For instance, the charmed (and some summoned) pets here simply suck, a disproportionate nerf to Alb.

As for the Ellyl pet, yep, that's their DPS. It's god awful. My 47/26 Supp BD's caster pets alone deal equal DPS, once the body debuff is up. And they're a level 21 spell to summon, plus they snare and nearsight, and that's *including* their awful resist rate on 50s. The devs also nerfed Ellyll heal from 475/2.5 to 250/3.2. Read some mixed message about this being unintentional and then surprise, it's officially a nerf. No patch notes. This is unlike the typically exhaustive documentation and discussion we see on Phoenix.
Sat 8 Feb 2020 11:20 PM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 9:32 PM
IMO, the Minstrel is not performing exceptionally outside of 1v1

We've seen the 2-minstrel 8v8 build because minstrels work quite well, so I disagree. If minstrels didn't work, because would never run two of them, and would constantly complain they even have to run one. For the sake of absurdity, I'd like to even see three tried because I have a feeling it's quite good. My experience is that there just aren't enough players who want to go through the twisting headache.

teiloh wrote: the charmed (and some summoned) pets here simply suck, a disproportionate nerf to Alb.

Define 'here'?
Sun 9 Feb 2020 5:47 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 11:20 PM
teiloh wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 9:32 PM
IMO, the Minstrel is not performing exceptionally outside of 1v1

We've seen the 2-minstrel 8v8 build because minstrels work quite well, so I disagree. If minstrels didn't work, because would never run two of them, and would constantly complain they even have to run one. For the sake of absurdity, I'd like to even see three tried because I have a feeling it's quite good. My experience is that there just aren't enough players who want to go through the twisting headache.

teiloh wrote: the charmed (and some summoned) pets here simply suck, a disproportionate nerf to Alb.

Define 'here'?

My jargon, for convenience:

Here = Phoenix
Live = current DAOC patch level
OG = 1.65
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:42 PM by mattymc
teiloh wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:04 PM
mattymc wrote:
Sat 8 Feb 2020 6:14 PM
any pet that simply cannot be CC'd out of the fight and is a constant and significant damage add <or outright damage dealer>that can constantly interrupt/damage etc and has significant hit points 9is a HUGE advantage --- the worst that should happen is you don't lose. There are pets that are certainly better if your fighting a main tank v. a caster, but I never found it to be game changing.

See Lerox's post: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12029&p=95608#p95608

Here's some raw data on Phoenix melee pet DPS: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=7718&p=55425&hilit=granny#p55425

50-70 DPS (unbuffed vs. no resists) is not a "significant damage add." It's respectable 1v1, but it's like melee Warden DPS.

Ellyl sages nuke for 20-25 DPS as an example of what has been done to Minstrel pets through stealth nerfs first disguised as bugs.
Read post -- so what....
Mon 10 Feb 2020 10:52 AM by kensing
I'm discovering this thread quite late, but thought I would bring this PSA to shed some light on who you're engaging in discussion with :-)


Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:03 AM by Loki
kensing wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 10:52 AM
I'm discovering this thread quite late,

Thanks Gwed for taking time out of killing lowbies in DF to come post here ... we met just the other day on my skald and you forfeit and stopped fighting. Always a pleasure to meet a high rr minst with no pet management

Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:08 AM by kensing
I'm glad to see you're capable of civilized conversation, and not all-out salty year round like that bittersweet Christmas day :-)
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:09 AM by Loki
kensing wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:08 AM
I'm glad to see you're capable of civilized conversation, and not all-out salty year round like that bittersweet Christmas day :-)

Oh yeah, I had fun on Christmas ... I can only imagine how bad the food in your contry must be on holidays if you have to spend it ganking lowbies with a duo .
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:14 AM by kensing
Loki wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:03 AM
kensing wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 10:52 AM
I'm discovering this thread quite late,

Thanks Gwed for taking time out of killing lowbies in DF to come post here ... we met just the other day on my skald and you forfeit and stopped fighting. Always a pleasure to meet a high rr minst with no pet management




1: Not gonna take your bait, commenting on how I play

2: That's not a screenshot of me? Lol m8
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:20 AM by Arthoras
Can i post my opinion too? It is not that reprasentive cause i play only solo... so a bit of a niche opinion i guess.

In my opinion the pet is not the real problem. The problem is that a really good minstrel can do a lot of things at the same time, due to the shire amount of utility that class provides. The main problem i see is, that in a 1v1 situation a good minstrel can outplay a lot of melee classes easy. Mostly because of the kiting potential. For me personaly a minstrel that kites is unkillable. thats not that bad as it sounds. i have a lot of classes that i can never beat due to mechanics, so i get used to counter classes.

But according to the fact that this is a game and a game should be fun for every player, i only want to say that "fighting" (fighting minstrels is no real fight, its more like cadio training) is no fun for the kiting victim. it took very long to die to that and is an absolute time waste for the victim. thats the reason why it is so frustrating.

my opinion is that there must be a thing that can counter the kiting tactic. On live servers there were a few things that a pure melee char could do against it (throwing weapon ML-style; a few artifacts and so on), but here? when the minstrel do no mistake in executing that tactic the victim is dead... i did not know so many mistakes that can be done in executing the tactic.
I realize that a minstrel cannot fight a pure melee class in a normal fight... due to the fact, that a minstrel is no pure melee class and so the minstrel is clearly inferior in a closerange combat. so i really did not know how that can be resolved.

problem with that is... 1v1 is niche and a "nerf" or change or whatever will cripple the group utility of minstrels. so i have no real ideas to solve the problem. but i fear that the pet is just the cherry on the topping of the whole "minstrel to strong" discussion.

but as state before... i am just a niche player, so i would not guess that my opinion is sooo important.

(as always: sorry rusty english...)
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:01 PM by Nauglamir
Arthoras wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:20 AM
Can i post my opinion too? It is not that reprasentive cause i play only solo... so a bit of a niche opinion i guess.

In my opinion the pet is not the real problem. The problem is that a really good minstrel can do a lot of things at the same time, due to the shire amount of utility that class provides. The main problem i see is, that in a 1v1 situation a good minstrel can outplay a lot of melee classes easy. Mostly because of the kiting potential. For me personaly a minstrel that kites is unkillable. thats not that bad as it sounds. i have a lot of classes that i can never beat due to mechanics, so i get used to counter classes.

But according to the fact that this is a game and a game should be fun for every player, i only want to say that "fighting" (fighting minstrels is no real fight, its more like cadio training) is no fun for the kiting victim. it took very long to die to that and is an absolute time waste for the victim. thats the reason why it is so frustrating.

my opinion is that there must be a thing that can counter the kiting tactic. On live servers there were a few things that a pure melee char could do against it (throwing weapon ML-style; a few artifacts and so on), but here? when the minstrel do no mistake in executing that tactic the victim is dead... i did not know so many mistakes that can be done in executing the tactic.
I realize that a minstrel cannot fight a pure melee class in a normal fight... due to the fact, that a minstrel is no pure melee class and so the minstrel is clearly inferior in a closerange combat. so i really did not know how that can be resolved.

problem with that is... 1v1 is niche and a "nerf" or change or whatever will cripple the group utility of minstrels. so i have no real ideas to solve the problem. but i fear that the pet is just the cherry on the topping of the whole "minstrel to strong" discussion.

but as state before... i am just a niche player, so i would not guess that my opinion is sooo important.

(as always: sorry rusty english...)

Don't allow for the kiting game. Use spots that have shitty los to create an infight right from the start and/or have a possibility to retreat.
On an open field, every assassin (more than anyone else, they just don't have to), caster and hybrid in the game can kite a fulltank to death - and should do so, basically, that's how the classes are designed. If you meet a minstrel, see if it's the type that just runs circles and let's the pet do the work - in that case, go for the pet and wait for the minstrel to join in. Then, you have your window of opportunity. If you miss it .. yeah, you made a mistake.

Again, not saying it's easy to win against a well played minstrel, totally not.
But most people just act super clumsy on top of it ^^
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:20 PM by Arthoras
Nauglamir wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:01 PM
Arthoras wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:20 AM
blibed

Don't allow for the kiting game. Use spots that have shitty los to create an infight right from the start and/or have a possibility to retreat.
On an open field, every assassin (more than anyone else, they just don't have to), caster and hybrid in the game can kite a fulltank to death - and should do so, basically, that's how the classes are designed. If you meet a minstrel, see if it's the type that just runs circles and let's the pet do the work - in that case, go for the pet and wait for the minstrel to join in. Then, you have your window of opportunity. If you miss it .. yeah, you made a mistake.

Again, not saying it's easy to win against a well played minstrel, totally not.
But most people just act super clumsy on top of it ^^

Ok... i correct my opinion from "unbeatable" to "very hard beatable". It would be a lie if i say i never win against a good played kiting minstrel - i think the winning quote is just so small that i forgot about it in anger when i loose against that... frustrating tactic.

Your arguments are good, but:
i cannot chose a spot. most time i met minstrels in open field. in bad spots (the mazes are great to break LOS) the minstrel can be in trouble. To kill the pet is standard counter, i do that in nearly every fight. Problem with the windows of opportunity is, that they are very, very short and even when you bound the minstrel in close combat, they have enough tools to close that window again and go back to the circle.
back in OF my standard tactic against that was to counter kite the minstrel back to htk... most of the time the got so unpatient that the close the window themself. but in nf... retreating is only an option when you are near a homecastle.

anyways: Thanks for the post. i try to adapt better to that thing... and try to swallow my anger infight and stay focused. perhaps that helps
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:31 PM by Nauglamir
Easy solution, as always, befriend a good bard and have much more fun
Meeting Minstrels and Skalds open field has to be pretty frustrating .. i get that.

But you beat me up badly once, at Boldiam bridge, i can remember!
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:57 PM by Vangaard
It is so weird people continue to complain about other classes so easily.
It is not that easy to play a minstrel due to the charm mechanics (targeting, resists ..), due to his own very low dps, and due to the fact that indeed he has a lot of utilities (meaning a lot of things to do, and a lot of expectations in groups , peel, rupt, demezz, cc, uncharm/charm etc..).
The charm is a pulse song , not a continues spell, each time you play an other song, (or are stunned if I am not wrong) , or are resisted, you have to charm again that pet, it requires a lot of attention among to the other things you have to take care of ...
High Rank minstrel can indeed charm quite good pets, but low rank will face a lot of difficulties to do so (due to the charm resist mechanics)

Many classes can be defeated by a minstrel ... but many classes can defeat him if they are played well.
An even if they are not played well .. many classes have toolkits/utilities to counter the minstrel abilities or just burst him.

By the way I suggest people play the classes they would like to nerf, so they can for real understand their mechanics, know their advantages / disadvantages / weaknesses ...
The only thing people seem to pay attention to, his the pet ... rather than understanding the entire character and their own abilities to fight him ... or avoid him ... as they would do if they played a hunter and see a shield or so ..
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:34 PM by Chaskha
Let's relief the poor minstrels and their too many tools to manage by making their pets orange maximum and have the CCs on them to stick. Charm/Uncharm doesn't break the mez.
I'm sure those super good minstrels will still be able to kill people.

It could be compensated with removing the need to twist though OR just keep it like that so we can all come here and whine from time to time
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:57 PM by Nauglamir
Chaskha wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:34 PM
Let's relief the poor minstrels and their too many tools to manage by making their pets orange maximum and have the CCs on them to stick. Charm/Uncharm doesn't break the mez.
I'm sure those super good minstrels will still be able to kill people.

It could be compensated with removing the need to twist though OR just keep it like that so we can all come here and whine from time to time

Or you man/woman up, let go of the thought that you are game designers of world rank, stop whining and learn to cope with the world.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 2:13 PM by kensing
Vangaard wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:57 PM
By the way I suggest people play the classes they would like to nerf, so they can for real understand their mechanics, know their advantages / disadvantages / weaknesses

Amen!
Mon 10 Feb 2020 3:15 PM by Tritri
Balance around solo play is a bad idea in daoc

Even if I understand that kiting for 10 minutes to no-match someone is boring for both of the players, it should be taken into account that nerfing this shouldn't affect group / zerg / small play
Mon 10 Feb 2020 3:27 PM by Chaskha
Nauglamir wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:57 PM
Chaskha wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:34 PM
Let's relief the poor minstrels and their too many tools to manage by making their pets orange maximum and have the CCs on them to stick. Charm/Uncharm doesn't break the mez.
I'm sure those super good minstrels will still be able to kill people.

It could be compensated with removing the need to twist though OR just keep it like that so we can all come here and whine from time to time

Or you man/woman up, let go of the thought that you are game designers of world rank, stop whining and learn to cope with the world.
And it is of course as a world class game designer that you provide me this precious advice ? (Come on man, it's not the point here, the authority argument is crap in this context, we're not speaking of brain surgery - many people here can come with a magnificient idea and have no game design experience ...)

But I agree on one thing: no balance should be done based on 1v1 and minst being OP in 1v1 is therefore not the context of a nerf
Mon 10 Feb 2020 3:28 PM by Nauglamir
Chaskha wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 3:27 PM
Nauglamir wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:57 PM
Chaskha wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:34 PM
Let's relief the poor minstrels and their too many tools to manage by making their pets orange maximum and have the CCs on them to stick. Charm/Uncharm doesn't break the mez.
I'm sure those super good minstrels will still be able to kill people.

It could be compensated with removing the need to twist though OR just keep it like that so we can all come here and whine from time to time

Or you man/woman up, let go of the thought that you are game designers of world rank, stop whining and learn to cope with the world.
And it is of course as a world class game designer that you provide me this precious advice ? (Come on man, it's not the point here, the authority argument is crap in this context, we're not speaking of brain surgery - many people here can come with a magnificient idea and have no game design experience ...)

But I agree on one thing: no balance should be done based on 1v1 and minst being OP in 1v1 is therefore not the context of a nerf

Nah, Marc Jacobs is. And they build a system that is unmatched up to now, where 3 parties with a lot of single entities are balanced by some magic and can compete with each other. All of the ideas in here are mainly bad and centered around the improvement of the own winning chances, brought up by people with no clue.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 3:46 PM by Sepplord
One thing to consider, regarding "forever"-DAoC mechanics:
I see a lot of similarities between the arguments that happened in the repoisoning-discussion

Repoisoning every blow while swapping weapons like a madman was completely taken out, despite being a mechanic that daoc always have had. The phoenix custom rules regarding macroing and the /switch command made this age-old daoc mechanic too easy, which lead to much more people (ab)using it, which lead to it being removed from the game. Reapplication of Poison-DoT's were nerfed in a way that made you LOSE dps if you kept repoisoning while a DoT was already applied.


Considering THAT, it doesn't seem ridiculous to imagine a huge rework of the charmsystem. Similar things have already happened on phoenix, for similar reasons. Staying close to the precedence, punish minstrels that mindlessly recharm by spamming, just as assassins that mindlessly re-DOTted were punished.

Shouldn't be a problem for all the high-skill minstrels here, but would reduce the amount of low-skill minstrel benefitting overly from QOL-rules.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 4:08 PM by teiloh
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 3:46 PM
One thing to consider, regarding "forever"-DAoC mechanics:
I see a lot of similarities between the arguments that happened in the repoisoning-discussion

Repoisoning every blow while swapping weapons like a madman was completely taken out, despite being a mechanic that daoc always have had. The phoenix custom rules regarding macroing and the /switch command made this age-old daoc mechanic too easy, which lead to much more people (ab)using it, which lead to it being removed from the game. Reapplication of Poison-DoT's were nerfed in a way that made you LOSE dps if you kept repoisoning while a DoT was already applied.


Considering THAT, it doesn't seem ridiculous to imagine a huge rework of the charmsystem. Similar things have already happened on phoenix, for similar reasons. Staying close to the precedence, punish minstrels that mindlessly recharm by spamming, just as assassins that mindlessly re-DOTted were punished.

Shouldn't be a problem for all the high-skill minstrels here, but would reduce the amount of low-skill minstrel benefitting overly from QOL-rules.

Once again, completely different issues. What you're whining about, Minstrels could always do by literally taping down their charm buttons. There are more Minstrels with pets because the players here are usually 15+ year veterans, and you don't roll a Minstrel unless you want to play with a pet 9/10 times.

Assassins also got a few buffs in return.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 4:12 PM by teiloh
Arthoras wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:20 AM
that in a 1v1 situation a good minstrel can outplay a lot of melee classes easy. Mostly because of the kiting potential. For me personaly a minstrel that kites is unkillable. thats not that bad as it sounds. i have a lot of classes that i can never beat due to mechanics, so i get used to counter classes.

Realistically, a lot of classes can kite melees to death. Even Assassins who want to backstab and run away have a good chance of killing a melee with no range options while taking very little damage itself. All pet classes can do this, too, including the Necro which would not really kite you.

But according to the fact that this is a game and a game should be fun for every player, i only want to say that "fighting" (fighting minstrels is no real fight, its more like cadio training) is no fun for the kiting victim. it took very long to die to that and is an absolute time waste for the victim. thats the reason why it is so frustrating.

I think this is because Minstrels actually have horrible DPS, whereas a caster with a pet could probably finish a melee in 4-7 casts. Ironically boosting the pet damage would help with this problem.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 4:14 PM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 11:03 AM
kensing wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 10:52 AM
I'm discovering this thread quite late,

Thanks Gwed for taking time out of killing lowbies in DF to come post here ... we met just the other day on my skald and you forfeit and stopped fighting. Always a pleasure to meet a high rr minst with no pet management



You prob zerged him or just easymoded it on the most skill-less yet overplayed and effective classes out there.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 4:15 PM by Nauglamir
Sepplord wrote: One thing to consider, regarding "forever"-DAoC mechanics:
I see a lot of similarities between the arguments that happened in the repoisoning-discussion

Repoisoning every blow while swapping weapons like a madman was completely taken out, despite being a mechanic that daoc always have had. The phoenix custom rules regarding macroing and the /switch command made this age-old daoc mechanic too easy, which lead to much more people (ab)using it, which lead to it being removed from the game. Reapplication of Poison-DoT's were nerfed in a way that made you LOSE dps if you kept repoisoning while a DoT was already applied.


Considering THAT, it doesn't seem ridiculous to imagine a huge rework of the charmsystem. Similar things have already happened on phoenix, for similar reasons. Staying close to the precedence, punish minstrels that mindlessly recharm by spamming, just as assassins that mindlessly re-DOTted were punished.

Shouldn't be a problem for all the high-skill minstrels here, but would reduce the amount of low-skill minstrel benefitting overly from QOL-rules.

The problem here is that switching by hand is a level of micromanagement that takes attention and comes at the cost of general oversight regarding what's going on and
your positioning, no one back in the days "did it like a madman", that's phoenix specific. The phoenix custom fix totally trivialized it and made playing assassins much easier. It seems they tried to fix their fix then. Didn't really work, I'd say. If you can't check if your dot is still applied and reapply it once it has worn off .. well .. that's a pretty low level of timing required. For me, it's another case of "Mythic knew better", actually. They gave a ton of tools into the hands of assassins, but made them tedious to use. As they gave the minstrel a ton of tools, which are tedious to use.

Apart from that, the ability to spam the charm has already been restricted, and if you do it mindlessly, you will not win many solo fights or perform good in groups.
Btw, got beaten up by a pink Shar-Champion today, nerf Champions.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 1:13 PM by Nauglamir
So, -25% pet dmg as of today, see you on the battlefield :-P
Tue 11 Feb 2020 1:20 PM by gruenesschaf
Nauglamir wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 1:13 PM
So, -25% pet dmg as of today, see you on the battlefield :-P

As I said earlier in this thread, when it was changed sometime last year the damage minstrels receive after their pet release was the intended damage all players / pets receive from charmed pets.
The charm flag was until today only set when charm was removed -> minstrel was receiving the intended damage when doing the cc dance and so did the target of the minstrel for the first couple hits afterwards but after 15 seconds it reverted to normal mob damage again.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 1:36 PM by Nauglamir
Yeah, at least the whole discussion is over now.
Or is it? :-P
Tue 11 Feb 2020 3:03 PM by Lerox
If anyone cares new damage table:

Tue 11 Feb 2020 6:27 PM by teiloh
Lerox wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 3:03 PM
If anyone cares new damage table:



Thanks Leroy, did you test wild mob damage too?
Tue 11 Feb 2020 7:23 PM by Lerox
teiloh wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 6:27 PM
Lerox wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 3:03 PM
If anyone cares new damage table:



Thanks Leroy, did you test wild mob damage too?

Should be same as in my old tables? Try it yourself.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 8:15 PM by teiloh
Lerox wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 7:23 PM
If anyone cares new damage table:




Thanks, I'll post it here so they're next to each other

Imo ~240ish/4 = 60 DPS is not a reasonable number for a lvl 60ish 2 hander pet when any non-specced, non-buffed pet (other than Druid) can do more DPS.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 8:17 PM by teiloh
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 1:20 PM
As I said earlier in this thread, when it was changed sometime last year the damage minstrels receive after their pet release was the intended damage all players / pets receive from charmed pets.
The charm flag was until today only set when charm was removed -> minstrel was receiving the intended damage when doing the cc dance and so did the target of the minstrel for the first couple hits afterwards but after 15 seconds it reverted to normal mob damage again.

Hey gruenes,

You mentioned before that this penalty was in place so it would be easier to adjust mob damage in PvE (?)

Now it's sounding like a plain Minstrel nerf.

Right now Ellyl sages are doing less DPS than three level 21 supp BD pets, who also snare, including resistances. Is there a design goal for how much damage Minstrel pets should do?
Tue 11 Feb 2020 9:41 PM by MrWolf
I see a river of tears
Tue 11 Feb 2020 9:46 PM by Riac
your sage is also unccable and youre not a dmg dealer, your a util class. i think its crazy you even get a pet tbh lol.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 10:15 PM by sylvynyr
Interesting.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 11:44 PM by pollojack
Thought people grabbed sages for the heals? Puppers for dmg/hp and shredds for dmg.

My 49 Minst killed bombzz with a shredder while I used a pole to block LoS.

Killed several RR5-9s with sage as heal pet and off dmg. Skalds, blade masters, bonedancers. I do get put down by sins but I also don't have purge nor IP.

Not templated, heal pot, 5% hole in slash, 10%+ hole in magic resists.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 11:50 PM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 8:15 PM
Imo ~240ish/4 = 60 DPS is not a reasonable number for a lvl 60ish 2 hander pet when any non-specced, non-buffed pet (other than Druid) can do more DPS.

No. Most tanks do 50-60 DPS without buffs. This pet damage is also presumably without buffs. Yet, pets don't run out of endurance, and have potential to be more immune to CC than a player. So it sounds like their damage is reasonable, given that it's on a class that isn't a DPS.

A minstrel will out-perform a DPS class, while being effectively immune to CC. I don't mind where their damage is at, but to say it needs a buff is ridiculous. Why should minstrel's damage be boosted even farther past melee DPS?
Tue 11 Feb 2020 11:57 PM by Riac
Isavyr wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 11:50 PM
teiloh wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 8:15 PM
Imo ~240ish/4 = 60 DPS is not a reasonable number for a lvl 60ish 2 hander pet when any non-specced, non-buffed pet (other than Druid) can do more DPS.

No. Most tanks do 50-60 DPS without buffs. This pet damage is also presumably without buffs. Yet, pets don't run out of endurance, and have potential to be more immune to CC than a player. So it sounds like their damage is reasonable, given that it's on a class that isn't a DPS.

A minstrel will out-perform a DPS class, while being effectively immune to CC. I don't mind where their damage is at, but to say it needs a buff is ridiculous. Why should minstrel's damage be boosted even farther past melee DPS?

because live? lol j/k this is a dumb thread. there is only one person in here beating his head against the wall for the hopes of mini buffs. he even has a buff thread too.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:00 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 11:50 PM
No. Most tanks do 50-60 DPS without buffs. This pet damage is also presumably without buffs. Yet, pets don't run out of endurance, and have potential to be more immune to CC than a player. So it sounds like their damage is reasonable, given that it's on a class that isn't a DPS.

So you're claiming a 3-4 person tank train would take 6-8 seconds to kill a caster not being healed?

Yeah, somehow I don't think so. A Warrior probably does 120-180+ DPS depending on the target. They can actually sprint, style and penetrate defenses as well.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:06 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:00 AM
So you're claiming a 3-4 person tank train would take 6-8 seconds to kill a caster not being healed?

Yeah, somehow I don't think so.

Unbuffed against chain? Yes. Against cloth, no--it would be faster. I assume the above pet damage is against a target dummy. It would have to be for it to be comparable to my numbers, which are based on a target dummy.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:08 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:06 AM
Unbuffed against chain? Yes.

You do understand how low 60 DPS is, right?

A BD with two coins on debuff and lifetap does probably 70 DPS.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:11 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:08 AM
You do understand how low 60 DPS is, right?

A BD with two coins on debuff and lifetap does probably 70 DPS.

A bone commander does about 20 DPS typically. A lvl 22 lifetap (without debuff) does about the same. I don't have numbers on warmages post nerf, and nobody runs archers so I never bothered testing those.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:14 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:11 AM
A bone commander does about 20 DPS typically. A lvl 22 lifetap (without debuff) does about the same. I'm not sure what two coins are.

My Supp BD Lifetaps people for 250 with the shittiest debuff on and no damage RAs and before crit. 250/4 = 62.5

People used to jam coins to keep keys pressed down before macros were around.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:16 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:14 AM
My Supp BD Lifetaps people for 250 with the shittiest debuff on and no damage RAs and before crit. 250/4 = 62.5

I don't see the relevance, as you're comparing your class to the highest DPS class in the game (or at least was pre-nerf).

edit: and this is part of the problem of bonedancers, so we shouldn't talk about them. Being a master rupter and top DPSer is poor balance, so please don't compare your slightly broken minstrel with the broken bonedancer. Both of these classes are problematic.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:18 AM by Riac
yall gonna love this. i have a 50 troll war SCed w/ 230 str. i just beat on a training dummy (i know its a training dummy) for 30 secs and got 7 attacks for 263 dmg.
lmk if you need help with the math.
https://imgur.com/a/JwKfoNW
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:21 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:16 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:14 AM
My Supp BD Lifetaps people for 250 with the shittiest debuff on and no damage RAs and before crit. 250/4 = 62.5

I don't see the relevance, as you're comparing your class to the highest DPS class in the game (or at least was pre-nerf).

1. You don't seem to have a grasp of average DPS in the game. 55-60 is nowhere near the damage of an unbuffed tank against chain.
2. You're comparing the strongest ability of a class you claim is overpowered to the lowest DPS spec of the highest DPS class not even using 70-80% of its DPS abilities, unbuffed. Clearly, if a 55-60 DPS Minstrel pet is overpowered, a 70-80 DPS 1 button mash is also overpowered.

BD DPS is closer to 250-300 buffed, without their pets attacking, and that's the weakest DPS spec and no damage RAs.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:23 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:18 AM
yall gonna love this. i have a 50 troll war SCed w/ 230 str. i just beat on a training dummy (i know its a training dummy) for 30 secs and got 7 attacks for 263 dmg.
lmk if you need help with the math.
https://imgur.com/a/JwKfoNW

I guess my BD outdpses you with two fingers on the dummy. 228 lifetap/4s, unbuffed
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:24 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:23 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:18 AM
yall gonna love this. i have a 50 troll war SCed w/ 230 str. i just beat on a training dummy (i know its a training dummy) for 30 secs and got 7 attacks for 263 dmg.
lmk if you need help with the math.
https://imgur.com/a/JwKfoNW

I guess my BD outdpses you with two fingers on the dummy.

am i supposed to be surprised that a bd is outdpsing my war? im not seeing your point.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:26 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:24 AM
am i supposed to be surprised that a bd is outdpsing my war? im not seeing your point.

With ONE ability that's not even 25% of total BD DPS. I can get 2.5 nukes in, unbuffed, on the lowest damage BD spec, for about the same damage each hit if I actually want to cast something.

Apparently even one level 40+ BD Dark caster pet can outdps both of your melees.

Something is off here.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:28 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:26 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:24 AM
am i supposed to be surprised that a bd is outdpsing my war? im not seeing your point.

With ONE ability that's not even 25% of total BD DPS.

im not seeing the point still? are you saying bds do too much dmg now? i thought this was about mini pets. my unbuffed war is sitting @ 61 dps and your pets do about that much, right? so you have all of that util and get something that has dps on par w/ an unbuffed troll war to put on ppl as you do other stuff. am i missing something?
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:30 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:28 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:26 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:24 AM
am i supposed to be surprised that a bd is outdpsing my war? im not seeing your point.

With ONE ability that's not even 25% of total BD DPS.

im not seeing the point still? are you saying bds do too much dmg now? i thought this was about mini pets. my unbuffed war is sitting @ 61 dps and your pets do about that much, right? so you have all of that util and get something that has dps on par w/ an unbuffed troll war to put on ppl as you do other stuff. am i missing something?

That's assuming a 2 handed level 63 pet, lol. And pets gain far less damage per point of Str from buffs on Phoenix.

I mean it's you and everyone else saying Minstrel pets do too much damage, when they apparently do less DPS than level 20-25 BD pets.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:35 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:30 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:28 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:26 AM
With ONE ability that's not even 25% of total BD DPS.

im not seeing the point still? are you saying bds do too much dmg now? i thought this was about mini pets. my unbuffed war is sitting @ 61 dps and your pets do about that much, right? so you have all of that util and get something that has dps on par w/ an unbuffed troll war to put on ppl as you do other stuff. am i missing something?

That's assuming a 2 handed level 63 pet, lol. And pets gain far less damage per point of Str from buffs on Phoenix.

I mean it's you and everyone else saying Minstrel pets do too much damage, when they apparently do less DPS than level 20-25 BD pets.

its not about the dps relative to other things. youre saying that the unbuffed pet is 60dps, right? thats the same amount my unbuffed troll warrior does (61 dps). should a non dps heavy util class have a pet that is un-CCable with high hp/resists and does the same dps as an unbuffed war? its a yes or no question really. i think the dps is a little high but w/e, the fact that its un-ccable really puts the icing on the cake. whats even wilder is you think the dps should be buffed lol, thats 100% ridiculous.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:39 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:35 AM
its not about the dps relative to other things. youre saying that the unbuffed pet is 60dps, right? thats the same amount my unbuffed troll warrior does (61 dps). should a non dps heavy util class have a pet that is un-CCable with high hp/resists and does the same dps as an unbuffed war? its a yes or no question really. i think the dps is a little high but w/e, the fact that its un-ccable really puts the icing on the cake. whats even wilder is you think the dps should be buffed lol, thats 100% ridiculous.

Unbuffed LEVEL 63 pet, and a 2h pet at that. This is almost impossible for most Minstrels to hold, and it's just based on Leroy's stats and a rough estimate. Do you really want to test a Warr vs. Minstrel pet in real conditions, e.g. the Minstrel pet is likely to have 2-3 buffs at most because Alb can't field enough buffers?

A Minstrel pet is about as CCable as a Warrior with det, the difference is that a Minstrel pet can't slam, they don't snare, they can't sprint, etc.

Tell me again why a LEVEL 63 Minstrel pet should do less DPS than a single BD dark caster.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:46 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:39 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:35 AM
its not about the dps relative to other things. youre saying that the unbuffed pet is 60dps, right? thats the same amount my unbuffed troll warrior does (61 dps). should a non dps heavy util class have a pet that is un-CCable with high hp/resists and does the same dps as an unbuffed war? its a yes or no question really. i think the dps is a little high but w/e, the fact that its un-ccable really puts the icing on the cake. whats even wilder is you think the dps should be buffed lol, thats 100% ridiculous.

Unbuffed LEVEL 63 pet, and a 2h pet at that. This is almost impossible for most Minstrels to hold, and it's just based on Leroy's stats and a rough estimate. Do you really want to test a Warr vs. Minstrel pet in real conditions, e.g. the Minstrel pet is likely to have 2-3 buffs at most because Alb can't field enough buffers?

A Minstrel pet is about as CCable as a Warrior with det, the difference is that a Minstrel pet can't slam, they don't snare, they can't sprint, etc.

Tell me again why a LEVEL 63 Minstrel pet should do less DPS than a single BD dark caster.

my war is a 2h also, its not like this apples to oranges here. one is a pet and one is real character, and youre not a necro.
youre comparing the mini pet to an actual player char now? do you really not see the issue with that?
the ministrel pet should do less dmg than a single bd caster pet because the bd pet is actually part of that DAMAGE DEALING classes package. thats the BDs roll in a group.
the ministrels roll in a group is to provide util, speed, rupts, and various RA (util). im surprised the pet does that much dmg, i think it shuld be more akin to a sm or cabby pet. used for rupts, not to actually beat the shit out of ppl. i wouldnt be surprised if that lvl 63 pet actually killed my war unbuffed lol.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:57 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:46 AM
my war is a 2h also, its not like this apples to oranges here. one is a pet and one is real character, and youre not a necro.
youre comparing the mini pet to an actual player char now? do you really not see the issue with that?
the ministrel pet should do less dmg than a single bd caster pet because the bd pet is actually part of that DAMAGE DEALING classes package. thats the BDs roll in a group.
the ministrels roll in a group is to provide util, speed, rupts, and various RA (util). im surprised the pet does that much dmg, i think it shuld be more akin to a sm or cabby pet. used for rupts, not to actually beat the shit out of ppl. i wouldnt be surprised if that lvl 63 pet actually killed my war unbuffed lol.

1. There's no way a Minstrel pet does more damage than a Warrior when both are buffed. See Uthred's posts on announcements, they nerfed pet damage scaling
2. There's no realistic verification of swing speeds. Plug your weapon speed in here: https://www.daocutils.com/utilities
3. People here are complaining about Minstrel pet DPS and trying to justify their low damage. We have hard facts showing that Minstrel pet DPS is pathetic at all levels, and with every pet except the cait sidhe.
4. So BD is a "damage dealing" class? Then why does it have better interrupts than any class in the game? RAs? TWF and BA aren't good, in your opinion? I thought everyone was talking about how powerful Minstrel pets are - now we discover a single BD dark pet does more DPS than a LEVEL 63 Minstrel pet, what happened to those "Minstrel pets hit too hard" complaints?
5. I would not be surprised if SM/Cabby/HUNTER pets did similar damage. I see logs of Hunter pets doing 150 damage every 2.x seconds. With minimal buffs. Basically with the dozens of nerfs on Minstrel pets, Minstrels barely get 5-10 more DPS than a level 40+ BASELINE pet. And yet here we are, one whole year of Mids and Hibs whining about Minstrel pet damage on the Phoenix forums, and asking for Minstrels to be nerfed even more.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:04 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:57 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:46 AM
my war is a 2h also, its not like this apples to oranges here. one is a pet and one is real character, and youre not a necro.
youre comparing the mini pet to an actual player char now? do you really not see the issue with that?
the ministrel pet should do less dmg than a single bd caster pet because the bd pet is actually part of that DAMAGE DEALING classes package. thats the BDs roll in a group.
the ministrels roll in a group is to provide util, speed, rupts, and various RA (util). im surprised the pet does that much dmg, i think it shuld be more akin to a sm or cabby pet. used for rupts, not to actually beat the shit out of ppl. i wouldnt be surprised if that lvl 63 pet actually killed my war unbuffed lol.

1. There's no way a Minstrel pet does more damage than a Warrior when both are buffed. See Uthred's posts on announcements, they nerfed pet damage scaling
2. There's no realistic verification of swing speeds. Plug your weapon speed in here: https://www.daocutils.com/utilities
3. People here are complaining about Minstrel pet DPS and trying to justify their low damage. We have hard facts showing that Minstrel pet DPS is pathetic.
4. So BD is a "damage dealing" class? Then why does it have better interrupts than any class in the game? RAs? TWF and BA aren't good, in your opinion? I thought everyone was talking about how powerful Minstrel pets are - now we discover a single BD dark pet does more DPS than a LEVEL 63 Minstrel pet, what happened to those "Muh Minstrel pets hit too hard" complaints?
5. I would not be surprised if SM/Cabby/HUNTER pets did similar damage. I see logs of Hunter pets doing 150 damage every 2.x seconds. With minimal buffs. Basically with the dozens of nerfs on Minstrel pets, Minstrels barely get 5-10 more DPS than a level 40+ BASELINE pet. And yet here we are, one whole year of Mids and Hibs whining about Minstrel pet damage on the Phoenix forums, and asking for Minstrels to be nerfed even more.

1. so now its gotta be buffed (moving the goalposts)
2. hes unbuffed troll w/ no qui upon creation w/ the slowest 2h hammer (you can find those numbers, ive already logged off) theres a s/c of my stats on that post. either way isnt the dmg normalized w/ swing speed and all that shit?
3. i believe that most ppl are complaining about it being non-CCable you just keep straw-manning back to the dps (which i dot think is a tad high, but CC is what kills it)
4. ill agree bd is a gay ass class, all the expac classes are gay. however, to compare your class to a bd is an apples to oranges comparison. youre not even the same type of class. one is a dps class, the other is util. (this is important, i feel like you are really failing to grasp this portion most of all.)
5. if s1 can post a hunter pet doing dmg like that, id love to see it (maybe it does but i really doubt it).
think of all the ppl who have stopped in and commented on the gay ass mini pets. how many have stopped in and agreed with you? 1 person? they cant all be wrong and you two are the correct ones.

since you still didnt answer my yes or no from earlier, ill post it again.
its not about the dps relative to other things. youre saying that the unbuffed pet is 60dps, right? thats the same amount my unbuffed troll warrior does (61 dps). should a non dps heavy util class have a pet that is un-CCable with high hp/resists and does the same dps as an unbuffed war? its a yes or no question really. i think the dps is a little high but w/e, the fact that its un-ccable really puts the icing on the cake. whats even wilder is you think the dps should be buffed lol, thats 100% ridiculous.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:04 AM by Nauglamir
You'd need to be rr12 to use a lvl 63 pet efficiently. And if you are - try to find one in the frontier.
I would not be surprised if a Hunter pet, due to it's ability to run at sprint speed+, outdamages a Minstrel pet in a lot of regular rvr situations by now.

And you guys still cry on, and want more?
And because you are loud, uninformed and many, your prayers may get answered. Kinda weird.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:13 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:04 AM
1. so now its gotta be buffed (moving the goalposts)
2. hes unbuffed troll w/ no qui upon creation w/ the slowest 2h hammer (you can find those numbers, ive already logged off) theres a s/c of my stats on that post. either way isnt the dmg normalized w/ swing speed and all that shit?
3. i believe that most ppl are complaining about it being non-CCable you just keep straw-manning back to the dps (which i dot think is a tad high, but CC is what kills it)
4. ill agree bd is a gay ass class, all the expac classes are gay. however, to compare your class to a bd is an apples to oranges comparison. youre not even the same type of class. one is a dps class, the other is util. (this is important, i feel like you are really failing to grasp this portion most of all.)
5. if s1 can post a hunter pet doing dmg like that, id love to see it (maybe it does but i really doubt it).
think of all the ppl who have stopped in and commented on the gay ass mini pets. how many have stopped in and agreed with you? 1 person? they cant all be wrong and you two are the correct ones.

since you still didnt answer my yes or no from earlier, ill post it again.
its not about the dps relative to other things. youre saying that the unbuffed pet is 60dps, right? thats the same amount my unbuffed troll warrior does (61 dps). should a non dps heavy util class have a pet that is un-CCable with high hp/resists and does the same dps as an unbuffed war? its a yes or no question really. i think the dps is a little high but w/e, the fact that its un-ccable really puts the icing on the cake. whats even wilder is you think the dps should be buffed lol, thats 100% ridiculous.

I see it's a mistake to make all of these concessions to you because it's seriously confusing you and Isavyr.

This is a LEVEL 63 PET. I'm comparing the EXTREME HIGH of a Minstrel to the EXTREME LOWS of a BD (lowest dps spec, lowest level pets, etc) to show you just HOW FAR off the mark everyone's DPS estimates are at. Realistically, a BD with pets will do 4-5x a Minstrel's DPS with pets (WITH buffs and level 60+), AT RANGE, while more than doubling their interrupts per second, at TWICE the range, and for less than 1/10th the power on conservation mode. AND a BD's pets will snare and lifetap. Once again, I'm being EXTREMELY generous to you to show you how bad your numbers are.

Like I said before, are you unbuffed in real RvR conditions? So why does your unbuffed test dummy DPS matter? A minstrel, EVEN IF it has a 63 pet, EVEN IF that 63 pet is two-handed, usually *will not* see any kind of buffs on the pet - and that DPS is not really consequential 95% of the time in 8v8. And that's not even counting the fact that you can literally sprint away from any Minstrel pet, whose SPEEDS were also GUTTED.

Does that affect Ench pets, the best of which are ranged? No
Does this affect Ani pets, who spam DDs? No
Does this affect BD pets, who are also ranged for 70-80% of DPS? No

Minstrel pets literally cannot even catch anyone with an end potion. Definitely NOT true of a Warrior. Again, how badly do you want to compare a Minstrel pet's DPS to any class or pet, in a REAL RvR situation?

So what are all of your points? That a Minstrel being able to release/recharm is somehow broken, because what? Minstrels are too strong 1v1 against mez classes? Because they're too strong 8v8? In sieges? Is that why Mid has been shitting all over this server since the beginning? It's too good of an interrupt tool? Like I said before, feel free to replace Minstrel pet with Theurg pets, BD lifetap, SM pets, BD pets. Your lives will become living nightmares, release/recharm or no.

Every single player who is actually familiar with the Minstrel class has agreed with me. Uthred and gruenes essentially agree with me, not on DPS, but on what you claim is the main point of contention -release/recharm. They have said several times that it's working as intended. The only people whining are solo stealthers and people who don't understand the game at all.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:18 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:21 AM
1. You don't seem to have a grasp of average DPS in the game. 55-60 is nowhere near the damage of an unbuffed tank against chain.
2. You're comparing the strongest ability of a class you claim is overpowered to the lowest DPS spec of the highest DPS class not even using 70-80% of its DPS abilities, unbuffed. Clearly, if a 55-60 DPS Minstrel pet is overpowered, a 70-80 DPS 1 button mash is also overpowered.

You're not doing a good job following the points, Teiloh. I said against chain, not cloth. And then Riac posts damage logs proving exactly what I said! ~60 DPS on his troll warrior, unbuffed, against dummy--chain equivalent.

My point is not to compare one broken class with another as it's fruitless. You are insisting upon making that comparisons, evidently.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:20 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:18 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 2:21 AM
1. You don't seem to have a grasp of average DPS in the game. 55-60 is nowhere near the damage of an unbuffed tank against chain.
2. You're comparing the strongest ability of a class you claim is overpowered to the lowest DPS spec of the highest DPS class not even using 70-80% of its DPS abilities, unbuffed. Clearly, if a 55-60 DPS Minstrel pet is overpowered, a 70-80 DPS 1 button mash is also overpowered.

You're not doing a good job following the points, Teiloh. I said against chain, not cloth. And then Riac posts damage logs proving exactly what I said! ~60 DPS on his troll warrior, unbuffed, against dummy--chain equivalent.

My point is not to compare one broken class with another as it's fruitless. You are insisting upon making that comparisons, evidently.

You have still not substantiated your claims of brokenness. We've already established that Minstrel pet DPS is TRASH on Phoenix because:

1. Charmed pet damage was nerfed
2. Charmed pet swing speed was nerfed
3. Charmed pet double-hit rate was nerfed
4. NPC stat scaling was nerfed
5. Higher level pets (read: only Minstrels and Mentalist) damage-from-level bonuses were nerfed
6. Charmed pet run speeds were nerfed
7. Charmed pet abilities were nerfed

To further compare to a Warrior, Minstrel pets only get WM - that's it, and no Minstrel is going to invest in that. A melee can get MOP/Aug Str etc.

So it's back to the release/recharm thing. Uthred and gruenes have already spoken if you have no arguments to present. There is no hard rule that a class shouldn't be able to drop effective root/mez time on itself to 3-5 seconds. Midgard has far more broken shit like the BD but no one complains, because this is a heavily mid-overpopulated server with relatively pro-Mid leaning designers.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:28 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:20 AM
You have still not substantiated your claims of brokenness. We've already established that Minstrel pet DPS is TRASH on Phoenix because:

1. Charmed pet damage was nerfed
2. Charmed pet swing speed was nerfed
3. Charmed pet double-hit rate was nerfed
4. NPC stat scaling was nerfed
5. Higher level pets (read: only Minstrels and Mentalist) damage-from-level bonuses were nerfed
6. Charmed pet run speeds were nerfed
7. Charmed pet abilities were nerfed

So it's back to the release/recharm thing. Uthred and gruenes have already spoken if you have no arguments to present. There is no hard rule that a class shouldn't be able to drop effective root/mez time on itself to 3-5 seconds.

I don't care if you think it's trash--the pet alone is about the same DPS as a melee DPS; that's not trash.

It doesn't matter if there are 30 nerfs if each one is tiny, and looking over the list, many of them are tiny so presenting your list of ten items is meaningless. It doesn't mean you were nerfed to 10% power, as you appear to want to imply, waving your long list around.

Minstels should be more powerful here if we want them to be classic-like. I don't want that. I think it's obvious most others do not want that. My probelm with them is that they do not have good counterplay available, and what control you can exert on them is easily reversed. This is a huge problem in a game about tactics. You may not like that, but this is the nature of tactical games--everything has an advantage and disadvantage, and everything can be countered. Minstrel pet release breaking all CC doesn't fit, is overly strong, and the long list of grievances from newbs to vets about minstrels in this thread makes it evident that most people are still not happy with where Minstrel is.

Maybe you want them to be stronger, classic-like--fine. I simply want them to be balanced.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:30 AM by Riac
Nauglamir wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:04 AM
You'd need to be rr12 to use a lvl 63 pet efficiently. And if you are - try to find one in the frontier.
I would not be surprised if a Hunter pet, due to it's ability to run at sprint speed+, outdamages a Minstrel pet in a lot of regular rvr situations by now.

And you guys still cry on, and want more?
And because you are loud, uninformed and many, your prayers may get answered. Kinda weird.

well not sure why he chose to use the lvl 63 as a baseline. thats why you dont use the edge case to prove your point.
considering that a lot of mini pets can cast, i guess that would depend entirely on which pet he picks. i'd still like to see that dmg from the hunter pet in a pic. you are operating under and assumption in this particular instance. do you think they do 150 a hit, like he mentioned in the last post?
are you referring to me being the uninformed one? if so, what am i uninformed on? aside from the hunter pet dmg lol.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:32 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:28 AM
I don't care if you think it's trash--the pet alone is about the same DPS as a melee DPS; that's not trash.

It doesn't matter if there are 30 nerfs if each one is tiny, and looking over the list, many of them are tiny so presenting your list of ten items is meaningless. It doesn't mean you were nerfed to 10% power, as you appear to want to imply, waving your long list around.

Each one was an OVER 20% DPS nerf. Even on grannies, the most derpy pet, the buffed DPS is down over 60% and they're level 50, not 50 plus, Please. No class has ever been nerfed that hard in DaoC, and Minstrels got SEVERAL in a row. Your attempt to tell us all that a Minstrel pet does more DPS than a Savage or Berserker (in real RvR conditions) are downright hilarious. I will take that bet if you want. Lets say a few plat or respec stones.

Minstels should be more powerful here if we want them to be classic-like. I don't want that. I think it's obvious most others do not want that.

No, just a handful of really loud whiners are getting Minstrels nerfed.

My probelm with them is that they do not have good counterplay available, and what control you can exert on them is easily reversed. This is a huge problem in a game about tactics. You may not like that, but this is the nature of tactical games--everything has an advantage and disadvantage, and everything can be countered. Minstrel doesn't fit, is overly strong, and the long list of grievances from newbs to vets makes this evident.

Overly strong? That's not what the stats say. That's not what logs say. You're saying a melee hybrid with shit utility (other than speed), a mediocre mez, that has arguably some of the worst DPS in the game, that interrupts worse than a single Enchanter spell is broken because it can technically demezz and de-root itself? When Skalds practically get the same benefit from a paltry 10-15 points invested, which ALSO works against casted stuns? And takes no skill whatsoever? Talk about "no counter-play".

Would you prefer it if Minstrels got Determination and a WS and HP boost like broken-ass Skalds?
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:36 AM by Riac
just because the recharm is working as intended or as it always has (didnt they mention it haveing some sort of CD mechanic earlier in the thread that doesnt exist here and allowes you to spam charm till he doesnt resist? also arent minis able to get strong pets from rank 1 when thye would normally have to wait till they rank up to get them?) doesnt mean its not a garbage mechanic lol. just look at anis and their pet placement, it was working as it always had and everyone thought that was garbage. did you see what happened?
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:40 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:32 AM
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:28 AM
I don't care if you think it's trash--the pet alone is about the same DPS as a melee DPS; that's not trash.

It doesn't matter if there are 30 nerfs if each one is tiny, and looking over the list, many of them are tiny so presenting your list of ten items is meaningless. It doesn't mean you were nerfed to 10% power, as you appear to want to imply, waving your long list around.

Each one was an OVER 20% DPS nerf. Even on grannies, the most derpy pet, the buffed DPS is down over 60% and they're level 50, not 50 plus, Please. No class has ever been nerfed that hard in DaoC, and Minstrels got SEVERAL in a row. Your attempt to tell us all that a Minstrel pet does more DPS than a Savage or Berserker (in real RvR conditions) are downright hilarious. I will take that bet if you want. Lets say a few plat or respec stones.

Minstels should be more powerful here if we want them to be classic-like. I don't want that. I think it's obvious most others do not want that.

No, just a handful of really loud whiners are getting Minstrels nerfed.

My probelm with them is that they do not have good counterplay available, and what control you can exert on them is easily reversed. This is a huge problem in a game about tactics. You may not like that, but this is the nature of tactical games--everything has an advantage and disadvantage, and everything can be countered. Minstrel doesn't fit, is overly strong, and the long list of grievances from newbs to vets makes this evident.

Overly strong? That's not what the stats say. That's not what logs say. You're saying a melee hybrid with shit utility (other than speed), a mediocre mez, that has arguably some of the worst DPS in the game, that interrupts worse than a single Enchanter spell is broken because it can technically demezz and de-root itself? When Skalds practically get the same benefit from a paltry 10-15 points invested, which ALSO works against casted stuns? And takes no skill whatsoever? Talk about "no counter-play".

Would you prefer it if Minstrels got Determination and a WS and HP boost like broken-ass Skalds?

at this point im willing to think the problem is with you lol... shit util?
in the bold portion about skalds are you referrin to sos? because if so, that is hilarious.
did someone say the pets are supposed to do more dps than a savage or zerk? (now has the disclaimer that they must be buffed lol or real rvr conditions /we)
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:49 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:40 AM
at this point im willing to think the problem is with you lol... shit util?
in the bold portion about skalds are you referrin to sos? because if so, that is hilarious.
did someone say the pets are supposed to do more dps than a savage or zerk? (now has the disclaimer that they must be buffed lol or real rvr conditions /we)

Both you and Isavyr claimed Minstrel pets do as much damage as melee, which includes Berserkers, Mercs and Savages. Someone tell all the Mercs to delete yes because a Minstrel pet can outdps them, apparently. Yes, Minstrels have shit util. Without a pet, Minstrels are deadweight with Speed and SoS on top. There's a reason why Midgard is an overpop, overpowered joke.

And if you didn't notice, Skalds can get Det - which was a totally unwarranted buff to that EZ mode class.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:55 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:49 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:40 AM
at this point im willing to think the problem is with you lol... shit util?
in the bold portion about skalds are you referrin to sos? because if so, that is hilarious.
did someone say the pets are supposed to do more dps than a savage or zerk? (now has the disclaimer that they must be buffed lol or real rvr conditions /we)

Both you and Isavyr claimed Minstrel pets do as much damage as melee, which includes Berserkers, Mercs and Savages. Someone tell all the Mercs to delete yes because a Minstrel pet can outdps them, apparently. Yes, Minstrels have shit util. Without a pet, Minstrels are deadweight with Speed and SoS on top. There's a reason why Midgard is an overpop, overpowered joke.

And if you didn't notice, Skalds can get Det - which was a totally unwarranted buff to that EZ mode class.

det without stoic isnt all that great. (do you know about stoic? in an 8 man setting it might be worth it, but its totally useless as a solo skald)
youre also conflating all melees and thats just not correct they differ in a lot of ways, including dps outputs.
idk why midgard is over popped but its not because mini pets arent good enough lol. (quite the hot take though)
should i delete my war because your pet does almost as much dmg as it? imagine if they buffed it and i was getting out dpsed by a pet lol, that really would be special. i know ill normally buffs, but that wasnt in the initial complaint.

id also like to see the dps on all the pet classes from the non xpac classes. how much do cabby and sm pets do?
what other pet classes can break cc on their pets?

edit: just looked, det 9 is 22 points. thats a lot of points to not have stoic. seems like youd just be better off with purge 5 for 30 points.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:03 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:55 AM
det without stoic isnt all that great. (do you know about stoic? in an 8 man setting it might be worth it, but its totally useless as a solo skald)
youre also conflating all melees and thats just not correct they differ in a lot of ways, including dps outputs.
idk why midgard is over popped but its not because mini pets arent good enough lol. (quite the hot take though)
should i delete my war because your pet does almost as much dmg as it? imagine if they buffed it and i was getting out dpsed by a pet lol, that really would be special. i know ill normally buffs, but that wasnt in the initial complaint.

id also like to see the dps on all the pet classes from the non xpac classes. how much do cabby and sm pets do?
what other pet classes can break cc on their pets?

edit: just looked, det 9 is 22 points. thats a lot of points to not have stoic. seems like youd just be better off with purge 5 for 30 points.

With moderately high det and body chant up Minstrel stun lasts 2 seconds on a Skald. You might as well say release/recharm "isn't that good" either.

For one, like I said three times already, it's a LEVEL 63 2h pet. I say 2h pet because 2h pets in general are extremely rare. This was prob a purp levian-al, and they attack slow as ****.

Likewise you were using a shitty taunt style, etc. Buffed, you get a much larger boost because NPC DPS scaling with buffs was nerfed, it's not nerfed for players.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:06 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:03 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:55 AM
det without stoic isnt all that great. (do you know about stoic? in an 8 man setting it might be worth it, but its totally useless as a solo skald)
youre also conflating all melees and thats just not correct they differ in a lot of ways, including dps outputs.
idk why midgard is over popped but its not because mini pets arent good enough lol. (quite the hot take though)
should i delete my war because your pet does almost as much dmg as it? imagine if they buffed it and i was getting out dpsed by a pet lol, that really would be special. i know ill normally buffs, but that wasnt in the initial complaint.

id also like to see the dps on all the pet classes from the non xpac classes. how much do cabby and sm pets do?
what other pet classes can break cc on their pets?

edit: just looked, det 9 is 22 points. thats a lot of points to not have stoic. seems like youd just be better off with purge 5 for 30 points.

With moderately high det and body chant up Minstrel stun lasts 2 seconds on a Skald. You might as well say release/recharm "isn't that good" either.

For one, like I said three times already, it's a LEVEL 63 2h pet. I say 2h pet because 2h pets in general are extremely rare. This was prob a purp levian-al, and they attack slow as ****.

Likewise you were using a shitty taunt style, etc. Buffed, you get a much larger boost because NPC DPS scaling with buffs was nerfed, it's not nerfed for players.

you tell me which hammer style you want me to use then.
so what is a normal dps for your pet. not the sage lol. an actual dps pet.
i didnt think resists went toward duration reduction of spells here. ( could be wrong.)
now its moderately high det? who is half assing on det? thats all or nothing.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:11 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:06 AM
you tell me which hammer style you want me to use then.
so what is a normal dps for your pet. not the sage lol. an actual dps pet.
i didnt think resists went toward duration reduction of spells here. ( could be wrong.)
now its moderately high det? who is half assing on det? thats all or nothing.

Even a trash skald with 38% det can cut Minstrel stun down to 3.2 seconds.

Use a standard .6-.7 GR.

There are no Minstrel DPS pets anymore. The highest prob peak around 60-70s.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:22 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:11 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:06 AM
you tell me which hammer style you want me to use then.
so what is a normal dps for your pet. not the sage lol. an actual dps pet.
i didnt think resists went toward duration reduction of spells here. ( could be wrong.)
now its moderately high det? who is half assing on det? thats all or nothing.

Even a trash skald with 38% det can cut Minstrel stun down to 3.2 seconds.

Use a standard .6-.7 GR.

There are no Minstrel DPS pets anymore. The highest prob peak around 60-70s.

i feel like you should do pretty good vs a skald. he cant CC you and you can keep him in combat while you get out of combat and then run in a circle around him. if shit really hits the fan, just moc mezz him and get some distance. 3.2 sec stun isnt too bad.

provoke is my only anytimer that isnt a follow up and has a .58 gr on it (pretty close to .6). conquer has a .74 growth on it and hits for 285, but its a backstyle and misses like crazy. the to hit bonus on it is crazy bad.

so youre not even sure what pet is good? im assuming you play a mini. what do you normally use?
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:27 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:22 AM
i feel like you should do pretty good vs a skald. he cant CC you and you can keep him in combat while you get out of combat and then run in a circle around him. if shit really hits the fan, just moc mezz him and get some distance. 3.2 sec stun isnt too bad.

provoke is my only anytimer that isnt a follow up and has a .58 gr on it (pretty close to .6). conquer has a .74 growth on it and hits for 285, but its a backstyle and misses like crazy. the to hit bonus on it is crazy bad.

so youre not even sure what pet is good? im assuming you play a mini. what do you normally use?

If a Skald snares you, you're dead unless you break it. So within .2 seconds you need to Purge/SoS/uncharm and then mez them and drop a pet on them. Of course every pet will just get outsprinted so it needs range.

Minstrels will usually run cait sidhe/templar/ellyls/barguest or whatever 55+ are lying around. Damage is definitely not very good.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:33 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:27 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:22 AM
i feel like you should do pretty good vs a skald. he cant CC you and you can keep him in combat while you get out of combat and then run in a circle around him. if shit really hits the fan, just moc mezz him and get some distance. 3.2 sec stun isnt too bad.

provoke is my only anytimer that isnt a follow up and has a .58 gr on it (pretty close to .6). conquer has a .74 growth on it and hits for 285, but its a backstyle and misses like crazy. the to hit bonus on it is crazy bad.

so youre not even sure what pet is good? im assuming you play a mini. what do you normally use?

If a Skald snares you, you're dead unless you break it. So within .2 seconds you need to Purge/SoS/uncharm and then mez them and drop a pet on them. Of course every pet will just get outsprinted so it needs range.

Minstrels will usually run cait sidhe/templar/ellyls/barguest or whatever 55+ are lying around. Damage is definitely not very good.

if he snares you, you can just sos or purge. you dont need to do both. also how much weap do you have? minis have some nice snare styles depending on their spec.
chances are hes going to be hammer, hell be doing negative dmg on you, youre not just going to fall over. just put pet on him and sos for distance, from there he is fucked the whole time. the only thing he can do is try to kill your pet, dont let him lol. im assuming that since this is a 1v1 scenerio, youre going to have all the 1v1 toys that you should have.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:35 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:33 AM
if he snares you, you can just sos or purge. you dont need to do both. also how much weap do you have? minis have some nice snare styles depending on their spec.
chances are hes going to be hammer, hell be doing negative dmg on you, youre not just going to fall over. just put pet on him and sos for distance, from there he is fucked the whole time. the only thing he can do is try to kill your pet, dont let him lol. im assuming that since this is a 1v1 scenerio, youre going to have all the 1v1 toys that you should have.

Fighting Skalds usually mean you kite them a bit and then melee them with your pet, but its AIDS knowing they are absolutely skill-less and you have to twist the entire time you're exploring.

If you SoS they usually SoS too. By SoS/Purge/De-charm I mean you pick one of the three, but you better do it fast and at range.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:37 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:35 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:33 AM
if he snares you, you can just sos or purge. you dont need to do both. also how much weap do you have? minis have some nice snare styles depending on their spec.
chances are hes going to be hammer, hell be doing negative dmg on you, youre not just going to fall over. just put pet on him and sos for distance, from there he is fucked the whole time. the only thing he can do is try to kill your pet, dont let him lol. im assuming that since this is a 1v1 scenerio, youre going to have all the 1v1 toys that you should have.

Fighting Skalds usually mean you kite them a bit and then melee them with your pet, but its AIDS knowing they are absolutely skill-less and you have to twist the entire time you're exploring.

If you SoS they usually SoS too. By SoS/Purge/De-charm I mean you pick one of the three, but you better do it fast and at range.

thats literally how you fight everyone. just because someone has it easier doesnt mean your class isnt strong. minis are a strong class.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:50 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:37 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:35 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:33 AM
if he snares you, you can just sos or purge. you dont need to do both. also how much weap do you have? minis have some nice snare styles depending on their spec.
chances are hes going to be hammer, hell be doing negative dmg on you, youre not just going to fall over. just put pet on him and sos for distance, from there he is fucked the whole time. the only thing he can do is try to kill your pet, dont let him lol. im assuming that since this is a 1v1 scenerio, youre going to have all the 1v1 toys that you should have.

Fighting Skalds usually mean you kite them a bit and then melee them with your pet, but its AIDS knowing they are absolutely skill-less and you have to twist the entire time you're exploring.

If you SoS they usually SoS too. By SoS/Purge/De-charm I mean you pick one of the three, but you better do it fast and at range.

thats literally how you fight everyone. just because someone has it easier doesnt mean your class isnt strong. minis are a strong class.

1v1 any pet class is strong.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:02 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:50 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:37 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:35 AM
Fighting Skalds usually mean you kite them a bit and then melee them with your pet, but its AIDS knowing they are absolutely skill-less and you have to twist the entire time you're exploring.

If you SoS they usually SoS too. By SoS/Purge/De-charm I mean you pick one of the three, but you better do it fast and at range.

thats literally how you fight everyone. just because someone has it easier doesnt mean your class isnt strong. minis are a strong class.

1v1 any pet class is strong.

perhaps but some are much harder than others and depending on the class there are certain things you can exploit (mini doesnt have a lot you can exploit). to say fighting one pet class is just like fight them all the others is not true.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:39 AM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:32 AM
Overly strong? That's not what the stats say. That's not what logs say. You're saying a melee hybrid with shit utility (other than speed), a mediocre mez, that has arguably some of the worst DPS in the game, that interrupts worse than a single Enchanter spell is broken because it can technically demezz and de-root itself? When Skalds practically get the same benefit from a paltry 10-15 points invested, which ALSO works against casted stuns? And takes no skill whatsoever? Talk about "no counter-play".

Would you prefer it if Minstrels got Determination and a WS and HP boost like broken-ass Skalds?

I said that the pet does about the same damage as most melee--and yes, that does include zerker (out of vendo), but no, that doesn't include Savage as it has self-haste equivalent to celerity. It is in a class of its own with regards to melee DPS, with exception of the reaver which requires back positionals. So in conclusion, my point is well supported by log data against dummies. As for the pet lacking buffs, that's only an issue of setup and it's a moot point because DPS isn't the minstrel's primary job.

I don't know why you downplay the minstrel's strengths. It's a red herring to the points I made, which is that the minstrel lacks counterplay, and you didn't bring any evidence to dispute that, only your opinion that the minstrel's strengths aren't strong, and skalds don't require skill.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:38 AM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:39 AM
I said that the pet does about the same damage as most melee--and yes, that does include zerker (out of vendo), but no, that doesn't include Savage as it has self-haste equivalent to celerity. It is in a class of its own with regards to melee DPS, with exception of the reaver which requires back positionals. So in conclusion, my point is well supported by log data against dummies. As for the pet lacking buffs, that's only an issue of setup and it's a moot point because DPS isn't the minstrel's primary job.

Like I said, even if they were buffed, the DPS gap would increase because NPC damage scaling on stats here is nerfed to shit. Unbuffed DPS is a meaningless argument, you will not be unbuffed in real RvR.

I don't know why you downplay the minstrel's strengths. It's a red herring to the points I made, which is that the minstrel lacks counterplay

Like I said again, being mez/root resistant doesn't mean your class automatically has no counterplay. In that case, Savages, Zerks, BMs, Mercs, Arms, Warr and Hero also have "no counterplay"

What is the Minstrel's great utility? Heal Song? A 11 DPS ablative? Power song?

More than half of a Minstrel's strength is their pet. That's literally all they excel at other than SoS and speed.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:51 AM by Loki
Lmao this thread has ended up with teiloh proving he doesn't know how to fight skalds . Funny as hell "If a skald snares you, you're dead" hahhahahahaah. Oh , how the mighty have fallen.

Like you said to others - stay mad, stay bad .

As for minstrel strenghts, I always though he was a support/ disruptor ? Or we just dismissed every criticism of the class because of group implications, and now that a change has been done that doesn't affect group play, we're gonna drop that because it's not convenient and focus on the solo play ? If the pet was more than half its strenght, its because the pet was overpowered .

Signed ᵃ ʷʰᶦⁿᶦⁿᵍ ᶜᵘˡᵗᶦˢᵗ
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:26 AM by Sepplord
Loki wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:51 AM
Lmao this thread has ended up with teiloh proving he doesn't know how to fight skalds . Funny as hell "If a skald snares you, you're dead" hahhahahahaah. Oh , how the mighty have fallen.

Like you said to others - stay mad, stay bad .

As for minstrel strenghts, I always though he was a support/ disruptor ? Or we just dismissed every criticism of the class because of group implications, and now that a change has been done that doesn't affect group play, we're gonna drop that because it's not convenient and focus on the solo play ? If the pet was more than half its strenght, its because the pet was overpowered .

Signed ᵃ ʷʰᶦⁿᶦⁿᵍ ᶜᵘˡᵗᶦˢᵗ

I know you get a lot of flak on the forum...but this is so on point
When reading up on the latest "arguments" i was torn between being amused and shocked that telioh is actually now turning into a 1vs1 discussion regarding minstrel strength...as if that somehow helps his point

i also enjoyed the part where staff-opinions are mentioned as argument for the CC-immunity mechanic, while trashing the same staffs opinion about the dmg adjustment in the same comment. The hypocrisy is stunning
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:29 AM by gotwqqd
Didn’t seem to affect minstrel population
My xping level 49 was rolled everywhere I tried to go by a minstrel
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:51 AM by Nauglamir
That's what every Minstrel can manage, as does every Skald and every Bard + x - what do you expect? ^^
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:03 AM by teiloh
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:26 AM
i also enjoyed the part where staff-opinions are mentioned as argument for the CC-immunity mechanic, while trashing the same staffs opinion about the dmg adjustment in the same comment. The hypocrisy is stunning

When you make an ad populum argument, the staff's opinion counts just as much as everyone else on my side.

Too bad, so sad. I can see you don't do logic, either..
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:04 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:51 AM
As for minstrel strenghts, I always though he was a support/ disruptor ?

A "disruptor" that has less than half the BD's interrupts per second, at less than half the range, and a "support" with ... heal song and ablative.

LOL
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:21 AM by teiloh
[03:16:34] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 208 (-73) damage!
[03:16:38] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 208 (-73) damage!
[03:16:41] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 166 (-58) damage!
[03:16:45] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 166 (-58) damage!
[03:16:48] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 266 (-93) damage!
[03:16:52] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 166 (-58) damage!
[03:16:55] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 166 (-58) damage!
[03:16:59] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 208 (-73) damage!
[03:17:02] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 166 (-58) damage!
[03:17:06] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 166 (-58) damage!
[03:17:09] Your cailleach guard shoots Training Dummy Level 50 and hits for 166 (-58) damage!

Level 61 Cailleach guard vs test dummy

11 Swings, 35 seconds
3.18s swing, 166 damage on non-styled swings = 52 DPS (this is an Alb Epic PVE mob, frontier purples don't style, or at least not nearly this much)
-30% damage from charm nerf = 36 DPS

Damn, that's too uber. Almost like the DPS of one BD dark pet.

And a level 32 Theurg pet hits for 65 * 6 over 20 seconds, or about 18 DPS. Roughly half the DPS of a level 61 pet on a player.

Minstrels too strong!
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:39 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:04 AM
A "disruptor" that has less than half the BD's interrupts per second, at less than half the range, and a "support" with ... heal song and ablative.

You always compare minstrels with whatever is convenient ... Sorry brah, BDs pets are for you to mezz. Minstrels and BDs are not mirror classes.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:50 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:39 AM
You always compare minstrels with whatever is convenient ... Sorry brah, BDs pets are for you to mezz. Minstrels and BDs are not mirror classes.

Can't forget that uber heal song and ablative support.

LOL.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:01 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:50 AM
Can't forget that uber heal song and ablative support.

LOL.

So now you're back to talking about tools that are perfectly useful in solo play but not as effective in group play. Your mental gymnastics are astounding. Take the L and move on.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:00 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:01 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:50 AM
Can't forget that uber heal song and ablative support.

LOL.

So now you're back to talking about tools that are perfectly useful in solo play but not as effective in group play. Your mental gymnastics are astounding. Take the L and move on.

Oh, so it's now "self-support", from the genius DAOC theorist Loki.

Lets not forget the uninterruptible flute mez!
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:35 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:00 AM
Oh, so it's now "self-support", from the genius DAOC theorist Loki.


Got no comprehensive reply, still can't shut up. One more straw man won’t change your image, anyways.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 1:29 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:00 AM
Loki wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:01 AM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:50 AM
Can't forget that uber heal song and ablative support.

LOL.

So now you're back to talking about tools that are perfectly useful in solo play but not as effective in group play. Your mental gymnastics are astounding. Take the L and move on.

Oh, so it's now "self-support", from the genius DAOC theorist Loki.

Lets not forget the uninterruptible flute mez!

self support = util? checks out with me.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:44 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 1:29 PM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:00 AM
Loki wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:01 AM
So now you're back to talking about tools that are perfectly useful in solo play but not as effective in group play. Your mental gymnastics are astounding. Take the L and move on.

Oh, so it's now "self-support", from the genius DAOC theorist Loki.

Lets not forget the uninterruptible flute mez!

self support = util? checks out with me.

No one would call a self supporter a support class in any game.

Guess the Ranger is an A+ support class, it has self buff, damage add and speed burst
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:08 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:44 PM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 1:29 PM
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:00 AM
Oh, so it's now "self-support", from the genius DAOC theorist Loki.

Lets not forget the uninterruptible flute mez!

self support = util? checks out with me.

No one would call a self supporter a support class in any game.

Guess the Ranger is an A+ support class, it has self buff, damage add and speed burst

this is a twitsting of words. the mini does have support aspects to it and those support aspects do benefit him in a 1v1 as well as group (abs buff and other songs).
either way, minis will not be buffed. you can sit here and keep arguing with me, and ill most likely keep arguing back because its more fun than studying.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:42 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:08 PM
this is a twitsting of words. the mini does have support aspects to it and those support aspects do benefit him in a 1v1 as well as group (abs buff and other songs).
either way, minis will not be buffed. you can sit here and keep arguing with me, and ill most likely keep arguing back because its more fun than studying.

Heal Song and Ablative aren't completely useless, but they're among the least powerful abilities in the game, especially for support.

Just mashing baselline groupheal on a Bard heals about 3-4x the both of them combined, even if you have machine fingers and double tap at the exact right moment
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:51 PM by joshisanonymous
Nauglamir wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:04 AM
You'd need to be rr12 to use a lvl 63 pet efficiently. And if you are - try to find one in the frontier.
I would not be surprised if a Hunter pet, due to it's ability to run at sprint speed+, outdamages a Minstrel pet in a lot of regular rvr situations by now.

And you guys still cry on, and want more?
And because you are loud, uninformed and many, your prayers may get answered. Kinda weird.

Weird, because you've killed me with a purple pet and aren't RR12. I've seen RR3s running around with red barguests often enough, as well.

You're being really disingenuous here. Blue hunter pets will do better because of sprinting? You know you have speed and mez and stun, right? When I played a minstrel, I never had trouble keeping the pet on an enemy, especially since you can also get very good ranged pets. But no, hunter pets are where it's at.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:00 PM by teiloh
joshisanonymous wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:51 PM
Weird, because you've killed me with a purple pet and aren't RR12. I've seen RR3s running around with red barguests often enough, as well.

You're being really disingenuous here. Blue hunter pets will do better because of sprinting? You know you have speed and mez and stun, right? When I played a minstrel, I never had trouble keeping the pet on an enemy, especially since you can also get very good ranged pets. But no, hunter pets are where it's at.

Reds are 56-60, purps are 61+, you need to be RR7+ in order to hold a low purp and it not be a complete pain in the ass.

Even then their DPS is pathetic. Looks like it's barely 80% higher than a level 41 Hunter pet that just feel out of a Hunter's ass
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:07 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:42 PM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:08 PM
this is a twitsting of words. the mini does have support aspects to it and those support aspects do benefit him in a 1v1 as well as group (abs buff and other songs).
either way, minis will not be buffed. you can sit here and keep arguing with me, and ill most likely keep arguing back because its more fun than studying.

Heal Song and Ablative aren't completely useless, but they're among the least powerful abilities in the game, especially for support.

Just mashing baselline groupheal on a Bard heals about 3-4x the both of them combined, even if you have machine fingers and double tap at the exact right moment

its a util class w/ support aspects. its more like a jack of all trades, it does a ton of shit but none of it well. thats the point. do you understand that?
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:08 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:00 PM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:51 PM
Weird, because you've killed me with a purple pet and aren't RR12. I've seen RR3s running around with red barguests often enough, as well.

You're being really disingenuous here. Blue hunter pets will do better because of sprinting? You know you have speed and mez and stun, right? When I played a minstrel, I never had trouble keeping the pet on an enemy, especially since you can also get very good ranged pets. But no, hunter pets are where it's at.

Reds are 56-60, purps are 61+, you need to be RR7+ in order to hold a low purp and it not be a complete pain in the ass.

Even then their DPS is pathetic. Looks like it's barely 80% higher than a level 41 Hunter pet that just feel out of a Hunter's ass

ppl in emain run around with the purple pixy named ysair or w/e and they seem to have no problem. its probably low purple, but they use it a lot none the less. minis of all ranks.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:11 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:07 PM
its a util class w/ support aspects. its more like a jack of all trades, it does a ton of shit but none of it well. thats the point. do you understand that?

Glad you're saying this, because everyone here is acting like the Minstrel is a speed class with two polearms with instant wizard nukes that can charm Godzilla with SoS on and mezzing entire countries
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:16 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:11 PM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:07 PM
its a util class w/ support aspects. its more like a jack of all trades, it does a ton of shit but none of it well. thats the point. do you understand that?

Glad you're saying this, because everyone here is acting like the Minstrel is a speed class with two polearms with instant wizard nukes that can charm Godzilla with SoS on and mezzing entire countries

yea, thats what the class is supposed to be a util w/ support aspects. not a pet master w/ a pet that does as much dmg as an unbuffed player char and would do even more dmg if it were up to you.
Edit: lets not forget unCCable
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:28 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:16 PM
yea, thats what the class is supposed to be a util w/ support aspects. not a pet master w/ a pet that does as much dmg as an unbuffed player char and would do even more dmg if it were up to you.
Edit: lets not forget unCCable

Yet you're fine with BD pets doing 3x the DPS of an "unbuffed player char", apparently.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:30 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:28 PM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:16 PM
yea, thats what the class is supposed to be a util w/ support aspects. not a pet master w/ a pet that does as much dmg as an unbuffed player char and would do even more dmg if it were up to you.
Edit: lets not forget unCCable

Yet you're fine with BD pets doing 3x the DPS of an "unbuffed player char", apparently.

you keep going back to this bd thing. the bd is a dmg dealer. the ministrel IS NOT A DMG DEALER. (read it again and really let it sink in lol)
stop comparing the ministrel pet to a bd pet. seriously, for the love of god lol.
Edit: and the bd pets are mezzable and the caster can do nothing about it. the mini pet is not mezzable. (let that sink in also, maybe sound it out. idk)
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:50 PM by Cadebrennus
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:42 PM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:08 PM
this is a twitsting of words. the mini does have support aspects to it and those support aspects do benefit him in a 1v1 as well as group (abs buff and other songs).
either way, minis will not be buffed. you can sit here and keep arguing with me, and ill most likely keep arguing back because its more fun than studying.

Heal Song and Ablative aren't completely useless, but they're among the least powerful abilities in the game, especially for support.

Just mashing baselline groupheal on a Bard heals about 3-4x the both of them combined, even if you have machine fingers and double tap at the exact right moment

The Bard also doesn't have chainmail, climb walls, stealth, and red/purple pets.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:51 PM by pollojack
Again, I don't see how one can advocate for buffs on minst. My 49 minst has taken out RR9s. That is without purge, IP, SoS. The util of the pet is too damn high.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:52 PM by Riac
pollojack wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:51 PM
Again, I don't see how one can advocate for buffs on minst. My 49 minst has taken out RR9s. That is without purge, IP, SoS. The util of the pet is too damn high.

not sure if youve heard, but they do less dps than a bd pet...
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:30 PM by teiloh
pollojack wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:51 PM
Again, I don't see how one can advocate for buffs on minst. My 49 minst has taken out RR9s. That is without purge, IP, SoS. The util of the pet is too damn high.

Want to try 10 out of 10 vs. my janky BD?
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:33 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:30 PM
you keep going back to this bd thing. the bd is a dmg dealer. the ministrel IS NOT A DMG DEALER. (read it again and really let it sink in lol)
stop comparing the ministrel pet to a bd pet. seriously, for the love of god lol.
Edit: and the bd pets are mezzable and the caster can do nothing about it. the mini pet is not mezzable. (let that sink in also, maybe sound it out. idk)

Yet the way the Minstrel was designed for ALL OF DAOC HISTORY was that they had pets that could absolutely stomp a hole from your ass to your mouth. Guess they "were" a "damage dealer" then.

Funny how you say BDs are "damage dealers" and therefore their pets get to do more damage than any other pet - MUCH HIGHER - than they ever did in DaoC history, even though their RDPS is already the highest in the game. That's not how balance works. So Cabs are also damage dealers, should we quintuple their pet DPS as well? They can't unmezz them!!!

So why shouldn't Minstrels also get the vaunted "damage dealer" tag that validates any sort of balance bullshit? Their superior "support" abilities, which is all of heal song, ablative and a mandatory speed buff? The BD is a better interrupter (due to Phoenix devs validating the bullshit of resist debuffs interrupting), it has better pets (due to ninja buffs to Dark pets), and by extension has better survivability. It also has better CC thanks to debuff+root and the unbreakable non-immunity focus snare no one bothers to use.

See why the "logic" of those labels falls apart?

Cadebrennus wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:50 PM
HURRRRRRRRRRRRDURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Minstrels also don't have 2300 range insta amnesia, Major Heals, Spec Group Heals, Rez, Base Buffs, Spec AF, End Song, Resist Chants, Cure Poison, Cure DZ, Primary Mez, Instant Mez, Instant AOE Mez or 1.2s cast 80s mez.

Go ahead and swap Minstrels with Bards for a few weeks. You'll cry a river.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:44 PM by Isavyr
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:33 PM
Yet the way the Minstrel was designed for ALL OF DAOC HISTORY was that they had pets that could absolutely stomp a hole from your ass to your mouth. Guess they "were" a "damage dealer" then.

Funny how you say BDs are "damage dealers" and therefore their pets get to do more damage than any other pet - MUCH HIGHER - than they ever did in DaoC history, even though their RDPS is already the highest in the game. That's not how balance works. So Cabs are also damage dealers, should we quintuple their pet DPS as well? They can't unmezz them!!!

So why shouldn't Minstrels also get the vaunted "damage dealer" tag that validates any sort of balance bullshit? Their superior "support" abilities, which is all of heal song, ablative and a mandatory speed buff? The BD is a better interrupter (due to Phoenix devs validating the bullshit of resist debuffs interrupting), it has better pets (due to ninja buffs to Dark pets), and by extension has better survivability. It also has better CC thanks to debuff+root and the unbreakable non-immunity focus snare no one bothers to use.

See why the "logic" of those labels falls apart?

You're basically illustrating how the minstrel wasn't balanced in classic--it had CC immune pet that did more damage than tanks.

Next, you compare your minstrel to yet another broken class, and then finally use the minstrel as the reference point, as if it's balanced, to which other classes should be balanced. Yes, if the minstrel were balanced, then cabalist's pets should get more damage, considering the cabalist cannot remove mezz from its pet. But the problem isn't the cabalist, it's the minstrel.

Lastly, the BD is also problematic being the best rupter and best DPSer (or was before pet-nerf, not sure about now), but isn't the topic of the thread.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:48 PM by teiloh
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:44 PM
You're basically illustrating how the minstrel wasn't balanced in classic--it had CC immune pet that did more damage than tanks.

Next, you compare your minstrel to yet another broken class, and then finally use the minstrel as the reference point, as if it's balanced, to which other classes should be balanced. Yes, if the minstrel were balanced, then cabalist's pets should get more damage, considering the cabalist cannot remove mezz from its pet. But the problem isn't the cabalist, it's the minstrel.

Lastly, the BD is also problematic being the best rupter and best DPSer (or was before pet-nerf, not sure about now), but isn't the topic of the thread.

Funny how this Mid-zerged forum has next to no complaints about the BD, and millions of whines about the Minstrel for the last 2 years, eh? Think that might skew the dev's perspectives a bit?

No, the Minstrel pet still did not do as much damage as tanks, but a Minstrel assisting its pet *assuming* both were full buffed did equivalent damage to a rr3ish Light Tank - unless you got a frost stallion, which would actually rip people's faces off. Of course the Minstrel was not nearly as survivable, while Light Tanks didn't range interrupt much, so there was a trade-off.

considering the cabalist cannot remove mezz from its pet. But the problem isn't the cabalist, it's the minstrel.

Sorry, what? If one class does less player DPS, its pet should also do less DPS? Is that a rule? Does that make any sense at all? Instead of handing out arbitrary "damage dealer" tags, maybe we should evaluate the whole class for its merits. I guess Fire Wizards are the Bolt Guys so their bolts should do 8,700 damage from 3,000 range with an instant cast aoe?

Very simple logic guys, the weakness of some of a class' abilities can be compensated for in one strong ability (aka the Minstrel, before the pet was shat on). You simply repeating "the pet is too strong" does not an argument make. The Minstrel pet was designed to be strong because the rest of the class is a pile of garbage.

Or we could just be like BDs, which literally sacrifice nothing and just get stealth buffs and nerfs to other realm classes to ride off of.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:11 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:48 PM
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:44 PM
You're basically illustrating how the minstrel wasn't balanced in classic--it had CC immune pet that did more damage than tanks.

Next, you compare your minstrel to yet another broken class, and then finally use the minstrel as the reference point, as if it's balanced, to which other classes should be balanced. Yes, if the minstrel were balanced, then cabalist's pets should get more damage, considering the cabalist cannot remove mezz from its pet. But the problem isn't the cabalist, it's the minstrel.

Lastly, the BD is also problematic being the best rupter and best DPSer (or was before pet-nerf, not sure about now), but isn't the topic of the thread.

Funny how this Mid-zerged forum has next to no complaints about the BD, and millions of whines about the Minstrel for the last 2 years, eh? Think that might skew the dev's perspectives a bit?

No, the Minstrel pet still did not do as much damage as tanks, but a Minstrel assisting its pet *assuming* both were full buffed did equivalent damage to a rr3ish Light Tank - unless you got a frost stallion, which would actually rip people's faces off. Of course the Minstrel was not nearly as survivable, while Light Tanks didn't range interrupt much, so there was a trade-off.

considering the cabalist cannot remove mezz from its pet. But the problem isn't the cabalist, it's the minstrel.

Sorry, what? If one class does less player DPS, its pet should also do less DPS? Is that a rule? Does that make any sense at all? Instead of handing out arbitrary "damage dealer" tags, maybe we should evaluate the whole class for its merits. I guess Fire Wizards are the Bolt Guys so their bolts should do 8,700 damage from 3,000 range with an instant cast aoe?

Very simple logic guys, the weakness of some of a class' abilities can be compensated for in one strong ability (aka the Minstrel, before the pet was shat on). You simply repeating "the pet is too strong" does not an argument make. The Minstrel pet was designed to be strong because the rest of the class is a pile of garbage.

Or we could just be like BDs, which literally sacrifice nothing and just get stealth buffs and nerfs to other realm classes to ride off of.

not sure if youve noticed the name of this thread, no were in the name do you see BD. this is a thread about minis. i also think bds and necros are gay. i think all the xpac classes are gay, if oyu wanna make a thread bashing them, id join in. however, this is a thread about the minis. comparing your pet to a bd pet is just dumb. at this point im sorta think that you are dumb or arguing in bad faith, one or the other.
edit: also this is a private server and they can make w/e changes they like. you keep referencing live as if its some sort of justification as to why you pet should be stronger or unCCable and no one cares about live. all sorts of shit was fucked up on live.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:21 PM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:11 PM
not sure if youve noticed the name of this thread, no were in the name do you see BD. this is a thread about minis. i also think bds and necros are gay. i think all the xpac classes are gay, if oyu wanna make a thread bashing them, id join in. however, this is a thread about the minis. comparing your pet to a bd pet is just dumb. at this point im sorta think that you are dumb or arguing in bad faith, one or the other.
edit: also this is a private server and they can make w/e changes they like. you keep referencing live as if its some sort of justification as to why you pet should be stronger or unCCable and no one cares about live. all sorts of shit was fucked up on live.

Yeah I'm sure you would? Why don't you make a thread about BDs to show you're arguing in good faith?

You need to provide a reason why charm/re-charm is imbalanced, like I've said a million times already. Is mez/CC resistance just broken in general? Then why do Skalds get Det?

Like what sort of impact is it having on the game that you think is broken? It's not fair that you kill a, uh, solo Mentalist without having to use purge? A solo eldritch that mezzes you and your pet? Is it not fair against what, solo Runies who throw a root on a Minstrel? Like would it realistically make a difference since Minstrels can CC from range and some pets can also range interrupt?

Like what Mid/Hib class is running around solo mezzing/rooting people (and actually making a job out of it/earning RPs) other than Skalds? Which are a bullshit EZ-mode class on Phoenix? The "issue" barely even affects the whiners here (Sepplord, Cadebrennus, Siouxsie), who are solo stealthers crying about Minstrel pet DPS - which I already proved was not nearly as high as these galaxybrains believed it was.

My issue is

1. There have been no arguments provided other than "it's unfair because I say so/it's bad design because I say so"
2. The proposed solutions do not solve the problem, which no one is identifying. It would help if real concrete examples were given - is TTK too high from Minstrel pet? Does R/R provide too much of a solo advantage? Group? RvR? Is casted root/mez resistance just too strong, period?
3. Its clear that a lot of people do not even have a reasonable ballpark figure for pet effectiveness handy to work with. I've been remedying that.

So here we stand.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:30 PM by Sepplord
That was clear 20pages ago though, and minstrelpets have already been nerfed now because of the bug this thread discovered...lets play with the new status for a bit before going in loops again

If BD is as problematic, then they need a thread too. It's seems telioh is unaware of the heavy nerfs darkpets got, at least he is only talking about buffs. But maybe something really IS not working as intended. As a BD main i hope it's not the case but if it is...then so be it.(I haven't played my stealther for months...maybe half a year)

But just as reminder, there have been several minstrel-nerf-threads and this one also gathered loads of pages without any changes. Then someone actually did a test and provided data and basically IMMEDIATLY gruenes and staff reacted and it was fixed. We can whine and flame all day long, but if you really want a change put in effort and provide facts
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:31 PM by pollojack
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:30 PM
pollojack wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:51 PM
Again, I don't see how one can advocate for buffs on minst. My 49 minst has taken out RR9s. That is without purge, IP, SoS. The util of the pet is too damn high.

Want to try 10 out of 10 vs. my janky BD?

I am pretty sure I wouldn't last without IP v one of the strongest solo classes in the game. Maybe if I got the drop and was able to mes a pet or two I could see myself winning.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:32 PM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:21 PM
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:11 PM
not sure if youve noticed the name of this thread, no were in the name do you see BD. this is a thread about minis. i also think bds and necros are gay. i think all the xpac classes are gay, if oyu wanna make a thread bashing them, id join in. however, this is a thread about the minis. comparing your pet to a bd pet is just dumb. at this point im sorta think that you are dumb or arguing in bad faith, one or the other.
edit: also this is a private server and they can make w/e changes they like. you keep referencing live as if its some sort of justification as to why you pet should be stronger or unCCable and no one cares about live. all sorts of shit was fucked up on live.

Yeah I'm sure you would? Why don't you make a thread about BDs to show you're arguing in good faith?

You need to provide a reason why charm/re-charm is imbalanced, like I've said a million times already. Is mez/CC resistance just broken in general? Then why do Skalds get Det?

Like what sort of impact is it having on the game that you think is broken? It's not fair that you kill a, uh, solo Mentalist?

Like what Mid/Hib class is running around solo mezzing people (and actually making a job out of it/earning RPs) other than Skalds? Which are a bullshit EZ-mode class on Phoenix?

My issue is

1. There have been no arguments provided other than "it's unfair because I say so/it's bad design because I say so"
2. The proposed solutions do not solve the problem, which no one is identifying. It would help if real concrete examples were given - is TTK too high from Minstrel pet? Does R/R provide too much of a solo advantage? Group? RvR?
3. Its clear that a lot of people do not even have a reasonable ballpark figure for pet effectiveness handy to work with. I've been remedying that.

So here we stand.

because idc about the bds, they dont roll up on me in the middle of no where w/ speed 6. i also happen to play mid (out of sight out of mind, but i totally agree, that class is lame af. not sure what else you want from me on that. you seem to be the one that cares, you make the thread.)

do you know what a straw man is? because you do it A LOT. skalds having shitty det is nothing even close to an unCCable pet that then breaks your CC as well as having an extra dpser (pet).

are you implying that you can only kill solo ments?? idk what you mean by that remark. but you can kill a lot more than just a solo caster. or, SHOULD be able to, if you cant, then its more of a you problem.

not really sure what your getting at about hibs/mids not doing the same. im sure they would if they had a nice strong class like minis, you make it sound like minis are shit, why are you playing one?

1. you really dont think a pet that has high hp/resists that does as much dps as unbuffed 2h troll war and is unCCable is a fair thing to have on a speed class with high util? its a yes or no question (remember this one, you refused to answer it for obv reasons lol. and there have been many good arguements about why its bullshit. its super strong in an 8 man scenario and decent solo. tbh if you cant figure out why that is good, youre probably a shitty mini player.)
2. yea, the resist rate is an issue, its a high lvl mob with high lvl hp,, which means more time off the MA just to handle the minis non ccable pet thats rupting the healer or some shit.
3. tbh i dont even know what you mean by this. are you implying its hard to use? it used to be, however, ppl make macros and make the rotations pretty simple. you may not, but other ppl do.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:34 PM by Riac
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:30 PM
That was clear 20pages ago though, and minstrelpets have already been nerfed now because of the bug this thread discovered...lets play with the new status for a bit before going in loops again

If BD is as problematic, then they need a thread too. It's seems telioh is unaware of the heavy nerfs darkpets got, at least he is only talking about buffs. But maybe something really IS not working as intended. As a BD main i hope it's not the case but if it is...then so be it.(I haven't played my stealther for months...maybe half a year)

But just as reminder, there have been several minstrel-nerf-threads and this one also gathered loads of pages without any changes. Then someone actually did a test and provided data and basically IMMEDIATLY gruenes and staff reacted and it was fixed. We can whine and flame all day long, but if you really want a change put in effort and provide facts

what did they fix, i missed it.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:38 PM by Sepplord
They fixed the dmg reduction trigger for charmed pets (not sure if it also effects other charmers or only minstrel/menta)

Theres was a bug that would only trigger that on release but not the initial charm.

I didn't do the math or test it, but i read that it is supposed to be about 25%less dmg
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:11 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:32 PM
because idc about the bds, they dont roll up on me in the middle of no where w/ speed 6. i also happen to play mid (out of sight out of mind, but i totally agree, that class is lame af. not sure what else you want from me on that. you seem to be the one that cares, you make the thread.)

What class do you play then? Because a Skald would be just as annoying if not more. It's far more irritating to be killed by a skill-less class, maybe it's a pain to get kited around but a Hunter could probably do that to you too.

do you know what a straw man is? because you do it A LOT. skalds having shitty det is nothing even close to an unCCable pet that then breaks your CC as well as having an extra dpser (pet).

At low ranks its certainly nice. At higher ranks when everyone is rolling in Det the added -% to casted stuns favors Det quite a lot. The Minstrel free ghetto option is pretty decent but you're probably getting demezzed by support anyway.

are you implying that you can only kill solo ments?? idk what you mean by that remark. but you can kill a lot more than just a solo caster. or, SHOULD be able to, if you cant, then its more of a you problem.

Like, what class is it you play exactly where Minstrels demezzing and derooting them is such a big deal?

not really sure what your getting at about hibs/mids not doing the same. im sure they would if they had a nice strong class like minis, you make it sound like minis are shit, why are you playing one?

I like high skill cap classes with almost infinitely high skill ceilings. Also Alb needs speed.

1. you really dont think a pet that has high hp/resists that does as much dps as unbuffed 2h troll war and is unCCable is a fair thing to have on a speed class with high util? its a yes or no question (remember this one, you refused to answer it for obv reasons lol. and there have been many good arguements about why its bullshit. its super strong in an 8 man scenario and decent solo. tbh if you cant figure out why that is good, youre probably a shitty mini player.)

Like I said, unbuffed doesn't matter. Minstrel pets can't sprint. Minstrel pets don't spam styles. Minstrel pets don't get celerity. Minstrel pets probably won't have buffs. Minstrel pets will likely never have damage RAs. Minstrel pet damage does not scale as much with stats (again, Phoenix nerfed this.) Yes, it's perfectly reasonable for a level 63 unbuffed pet to do the same damage as an unbuffed Warrior (presumably with low spec?) using a bad style



3. tbh i dont even know what you mean by this. are you implying its hard to use? it used to be, however, ppl make macros and make the rotations pretty simple. you may not, but other ppl do.

Holding down charm is not the problem. Every time your pet resists you need to retarget, and Minstrels already re-target close to 1 time per second in an 8v8 fight.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:14 AM by Riac
ima need a tldr, its been 2 days of your dumbass
im a 9l6 sb named lilbusta
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:32 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:14 AM
ima need a tldr, its been 2 days of your dumbass
im a 9l6 sb named lilbusta

Oh okay.

So I see you're complaining about recharm/release because they're breaking your Shadowblade mezzes, or your unbreakable Assassin snare poison with recharm/release.





So it's not really about your personal experience with recharm/release but you vindictively trying to get a class nerfed in an arena you're not even playing in because it speeds around and assjams you, which is something Skalds would be able to do. Except they'd be worse, because unlike R/R Skald det actually affects your Snare poisons.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:38 AM by joshisanonymous
What I've learned from this thread is that teiloh is a horrible player who hates the class he's playing. It's good to know that there are crap minstrels out there, as well, because good minstrels are hard as hell to kill. Please tell me you're running around solo, teiloh, because I definitely wanna encounter your minstrel. My /fairfight flag is always on.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:43 AM by teiloh
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:38 AM
What I've learned from this thread is that teiloh is a horrible player who hates the class he's playing. It's good to know that there are crap minstrels out there, as well, because good minstrels are hard as hell to kill. Please tell me you're running around solo, teiloh, because I definitely wanna encounter your minstrel. My /fairfight flag is always on.

I would stomp the shit out of you. Prob have farmed a few thousand of your RPs here and maybe on live. I play Minst because I like high skill cap classes, but I also like facts and data, and not baseless whining.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:59 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:32 AM
Riac wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:14 AM
ima need a tldr, its been 2 days of your dumbass
im a 9l6 sb named lilbusta

Oh okay.

So I see you're complaining about recharm/release because they're breaking your Shadowblade mezzes, or your unbreakable Assassin snare poison with recharm/release.





So it's not really about your personal experience with recharm/release but you vindictively trying to get a class nerfed in an arena you're not even playing in because it speeds around and assjams you, which is something Skalds would be able to do. Except they'd be worse, because unlike R/R Skald det actually affects your Snare poisons.

i dont have to mezz to know a class mechanic is broke lol. this game is 20 uyears old, ive played in the 8 man meta before. on this server i play a sb.
edit, on uth1 my main was a bard btw :p rank 7
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:16 AM by Riac
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:43 AM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:38 AM
What I've learned from this thread is that teiloh is a horrible player who hates the class he's playing. It's good to know that there are crap minstrels out there, as well, because good minstrels are hard as hell to kill. Please tell me you're running around solo, teiloh, because I definitely wanna encounter your minstrel. My /fairfight flag is always on.

I would stomp the shit out of you. Prob have farmed a few thousand of your RPs here and maybe on live. I play Minst because I like high skill cap classes, but I also like facts and data, and not baseless whining.

can we all just take a second to ROFL
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:22 AM by teiloh
Riac wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:59 AM
i dont have to mezz to know a class mechanic is broke lol. this game is 20 uyears old, ive played in the 8 man meta before. on this server i play a sb.
edit, on uth1 my main was a bard btw :p rank 7

In 8 man R/R does have a cost. It's usually not a big one, but the upside is also lower if someone else breaks mez for you. If anything it just saves your Sorcs some time. It's good for knicking roots and snares every now and then, but given the nature of Minstrels it likely won't affect combat much. The way Minst pet is set up you do get punished with a tether and having to retarget a bunch of times. It's not cost-free.

All I'm saying is that if this benefit becomes the 23rd or 24th or 25th Minstrel nerf in a row on Phoenix there should be some serious compensation for QOL and effectiveness for Minstrels. I don't even disagree with the pet scaling nerfs, or some of the specific mob nerfs, but what I want is for Minstrel pets to generally be effective and reflect the power of a level 51-57ish mob.

I miss the versatility and fun that different pets could bring. It feels like you're a playing a different game with each different pet.

Here's what I propose if you absolutely believe charm chant/Minstrels must be reworked:

1. Implement two versions of charm. One perma based on the Minstrel's spec (up to 55, or multiple lower con pets)
2. Pulse charm. After releasing, the pet stays CCed. The pet just wanders off instead of attacking anyone otherwise.
3. Separate chants and songs, so you can run one of each concurrently.
4. Make flute mez just a cast rather than a pulse.
5. Make it so you can switch between songs on the fly without being interrupted, now that flute mez is no longer a song.
6. Remove the penalty on damage for overcharmed pets.
7. Tweak pets some. Bring back frost stallion AOE but keep the melee range proc requirement. Raise pet speeds back to what they were (except bloodletter, which runs at speed 6). Sprinkle some styles and abilities on pets without them. Raise all healing pet thresholds to 70 and slightly increase healing amount. Raise Ellyl sage nuke DPS to an appropriate level. Balance the mobs with each other in general.
8. Give Alb a viable 3rd buffer setup.

There, now things should be fine
Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:39 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:43 AM
I would stomp the shit out of you. Prob have farmed a few thousand of your RPs here and maybe on live. I play Minst because I like high skill cap classes, but I also like facts and data, and not baseless whining.

aight, time to put your money where your mouth is . Which minstrel are you ?
Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:53 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:39 AM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:43 AM
I would stomp the shit out of you. Prob have farmed a few thousand of your RPs here and maybe on live. I play Minst because I like high skill cap classes, but I also like facts and data, and not baseless whining.

aight, time to put your money where your mouth is . Which minstrel are you ?

One that has reaped your sweet RPs.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:02 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:53 AM
One that has reaped your sweet RPs.

I can pretty much pinpoint which one you are just from your whining against skalds. Still, you don't say I farmed you without a name that's just a coward move . ANd if you are who I think you are, you never won 1v1, just added .
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:04 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:02 AM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:53 AM
One that has reaped your sweet RPs.

I can pretty much pinpoint which one you are just from your whining against skalds. Still, you don't say I farmed you without a name that's just a coward move . ANd if you are who I think you are, you never won 1v1, just added .

lol guess which one I am. I've killed you several times by insta stunning you, counter purging you, and then just kiting you to death with a pet. You did vanish a few times. This was on the road to AMG from APK in OF though. I do love doing this to every Assassin. Also I've killed you a few times on my Necro, gotta hand it to you for popping in the first place though.

If you want another hint I'm one of the fastest ones on that insta stun draw

I've never been killed by a solo Skald btw, but it still annoys me how they're constantly buffed on this server despite being 0 skill EZ moders.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:08 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:04 AM
lol guess which one I am. I've killed you several times by insta stunning you, counter purging you, and then just kiting you to death with a pet. You did vanish a few times. This was on the road to AMG from APK though. I do love doing this to every Assassin.

If you want another hint I'm one of the fastest ones on that insta stun draw

I've never been killed by a solo Skald btw, but it still annoys me how they're constantly buffed on this server despite being 0 skill EZ moders.

You're fast on instas ? Boy, thats difficult ... wonder why they call it insta. Assassins don't have any response to purge+IP+SoS other than Vanish and try again later. If you knew that, you wouldn't boast about Vanish. If you haven't been killed by a solo skald is probably cus you havent been active on Minstrel since OF. Maybe not even on Phoenix, judging from your inexperienced whining.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:20 AM by Loki
Besides, it was easy to break SB style queue in OF. They fixed that in June last year, when stuns no longer cancelled style queues. Previously, if you DD/stunned, no assassin could purge and CD in time. But please, brag about your skills in OF some more.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:25 AM by teiloh
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:20 AM
Besides, it was easy to break SB style queue in OF. They fixed that in June last year, when stuns no longer cancelled style queues. Previously, if you DD/stunned, no assassin could purge and CD in time. But please, brag about your skills in OF some more.

No one's ever gotten a CD off on my Minstrel before. 2fast4u

I just ran in circles while granny smacked you for 90-100 damage, lol.

For Skalds I just clear snare and kite with a pet as well. If they don't like it they can duel my BD
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:54 AM by Loki
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:25 AM
I just ran in circles while granny smacked you for 90-100 damage, lol.

Damn, that sounds complicated and rewarding ... what a stoner answer btw.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:22 AM by Nauglamir
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:53 AM
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:39 AM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:43 AM
I would stomp the shit out of you. Prob have farmed a few thousand of your RPs here and maybe on live. I play Minst because I like high skill cap classes, but I also like facts and data, and not baseless whining.

aight, time to put your money where your mouth is . Which minstrel are you ?

One that has reaped your sweet RPs.

Why don't you just lift the curtain and tell him who you are? ^^
Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:29 AM by Sepplord
because this thread is taking up on spead now, here a free summary of the last few hours most important points:

a) Riac is a biased whiner that only wants things nerfed that negatively affect him, and also a biased whiner who wants things nerfed that don't have anything to do with his playstyle at the same time.

b) telioh stomps everyone all the time and is a fan of hard facts, (but that doesn't mean minstrels are OP) refuses to tell his ingame characters name

c) he is also faster on his instant stun than any other minstrel. Apparently there are reactiontime competitions in albion to determine the fastest minstrels

d) he has also never been beaten by a skald because of his superior skills, despite skald being eazymode and OP

e) and to be fair, he made this proposal that noone took the bait to comment on, but to be fair, actually one of the more reasonable and constructive posts
teiloh wrote: 1. Implement two versions of charm. One perma based on the Minstrel's spec (up to 55, or multiple lower con pets)
2. Pulse charm. After releasing, the pet stays CCed. The pet just wanders off instead of attacking anyone otherwise.
3. Separate chants and songs, so you can run one of each concurrently.
4. Make flute mez just a cast rather than a pulse.
5. Make it so you can switch between songs on the fly without being interrupted, now that flute mez is no longer a song.
6. Remove the penalty on damage for overcharmed pets.
7. Tweak pets some. Bring back frost stallion AOE but keep the melee range proc requirement. Raise pet speeds back to what they were (except bloodletter, which runs at speed 6). Sprinkle some styles and abilities on pets without them. Raise all healing pet thresholds to 70 and slightly increase healing amount. Raise Ellyl sage nuke DPS to an appropriate level. Balance the mobs with each other in general.
8. Give Alb a viable 3rd buffer setup.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:41 AM by Nauglamir
joshisanonymous wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:51 PM
Nauglamir wrote:
Wed 12 Feb 2020 3:04 AM
You'd need to be rr12 to use a lvl 63 pet efficiently. And if you are - try to find one in the frontier.
I would not be surprised if a Hunter pet, due to it's ability to run at sprint speed+, outdamages a Minstrel pet in a lot of regular rvr situations by now.

And you guys still cry on, and want more?
And because you are loud, uninformed and many, your prayers may get answered. Kinda weird.

Weird, because you've killed me with a purple pet and aren't RR12. I've seen RR3s running around with red barguests often enough, as well.

You're being really disingenuous here. Blue hunter pets will do better because of sprinting? You know you have speed and mez and stun, right? When I played a minstrel, I never had trouble keeping the pet on an enemy, especially since you can also get very good ranged pets. But no, hunter pets are where it's at.

A purple pet at it's lowest level has a 60% resistrate for me at rr8, that's above of what I see as playable - it may go well 80% of the time, but if i loose control in the heat of battle once, it will screw me over, which I don't want. The only time I use those is if i can't have something else, for a short period of time (mainly in Emain, as there are only big-ass badgers available).

And yes, I can snare for the pet, we can assist down on one target. If I send the pet on one target and take care of something else, it will maybe hit 1 or 2 times, then the sprinting target is out of range. In that case (which is every caster or supporter), a hunter pet, possibly str/con buffed and hidden behind a tree or under a dock, can outperform and outdamage the minstrel pet, I am sure of that. And there are no good ranged pets on this server.

I made my peace with the recent nerf, it hurt, but yeah - change it, love it or leave it. Option 2 is what I picked, one has to move on.
The class is still playable and fun, but you guys should assure yourself that it is far from where it is/was on live and has been hit by the nerf slashhammer more than enough, to a point where a lot of classes can beat them 1 on 1 (which seems to be the fuel of this thread) if properly played.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:53 AM by Nauglamir
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:29 AM
because this thread is taking up on spead now, here a free summary of the last few hours most important points:

a) Riac is a biased whiner that only wants things nerfed that negatively affect him, and also a biased whiner who wants things nerfed that don't have anything to do with his playstyle at the same time.

b) telioh stomps everyone all the time and is a fan of hard facts, (but that doesn't mean minstrels are OP) refuses to tell his ingame characters name

c) he is also faster on his instant stun than any other minstrel. Apparently there are reactiontime competitions in albion to determine the fastest minstrels

d) he has also never been beaten by a skald because of his superior skills, despite skald being eazymode and OP

e) and to be fair, he made this proposal that noone took the bait to comment on, but to be fair, actually one of the more reasonable and constructive posts
teiloh wrote: 1. Implement two versions of charm. One perma based on the Minstrel's spec (up to 55, or multiple lower con pets)
2. Pulse charm. After releasing, the pet stays CCed. The pet just wanders off instead of attacking anyone otherwise.
3. Separate chants and songs, so you can run one of each concurrently.
4. Make flute mez just a cast rather than a pulse.
5. Make it so you can switch between songs on the fly without being interrupted, now that flute mez is no longer a song.
6. Remove the penalty on damage for overcharmed pets.
7. Tweak pets some. Bring back frost stallion AOE but keep the melee range proc requirement. Raise pet speeds back to what they were (except bloodletter, which runs at speed 6). Sprinkle some styles and abilities on pets without them. Raise all healing pet thresholds to 70 and slightly increase healing amount. Raise Ellyl sage nuke DPS to an appropriate level. Balance the mobs with each other in general.
8. Give Alb a viable 3rd buffer setup.

Pretty wild potpourri of things, partially totally changing the class concept - why would one want to loose the wonderfully unique flute mezz? It basically is the defining trait of the class, next to being so charismatic that powerful monsters follow you. Or not so powerful anymore ..
Just because "hey, I'm a world class game designer, it's just .. no one noticed yet"?
All ending with .. tell me how to build an 8 men with 2 clerics and a friar? Well, just do.

Apart from them just being too jealous with qol changes, which was quite an arrow to the knee, I really start to see why Uthgard staff was so strict on their vision.
It is a can of worms, and here, it's wide open.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:56 AM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:07 PM
most people are not even scratching the potential of their class
Maybe git gud like you told others, if the 25% pet damage reduction is enough to break your strategy maybe rely on pet less.

As for the nerf, I understood it was a fix actually ... Charmed mob was not doing the intended damage after recharm, which happens pretty much every fight. Wouldnt it be funny if the cries of teiloh and you made the devs take a look at pet mechanics and notice that irregularity ? Boy, the irony ...
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:04 AM by Nauglamir
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:56 AM
Nauglamir wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:07 PM
most people are not even scratching the potential of their class
Maybe git gud like you told others, if the 25% pet damage reduction is enough to break your strategy maybe rely on pet less.

As for the nerf, I understood it was a fix actually ... Charmed mob was not doing the intended damage after recharm, which happens pretty much every fight. Wouldnt it be funny if the cries of teiloh and you made the devs take a look at pet mechanics and notice that irregularity ? Boy, the irony ...

The pet did 75% of the dmg over a lengthy fight, because Minstrel melee dps is only undercut by Bards that have 10 speccpoints in blade, so for sure - a 25% reduction is a massive hit.
And it happened because Leroy was the only one knowing what he was talking about, and Devs said that the behaviour is not what they want, so they changed it. Try to read again, maybe you get the whole picture.

Apart from that - where did I cry?
You did beat up Minstrels before, on both Skald and Shadowblade, depending where you had all your RAs up.
Now can do so even easier, because .. who cried, again?
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:11 AM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:04 AM
Apart from that - where did I cry?
You did beat up Minstrels before, on both Skald and Shadowblade, depending where you had all your RAs up.
Now can do so even easier, because .. who cried, again?

Brah, you gonna ask that with a straight face ? remember when you said a good shammy can kill a minstrel ? Or a hunter ? or on and on the never ending list of advantages you think other classes have over minstrels.

On SB I can kill Minstrels when they DONT have their RAs up, not when mine are up. If my purge isn't up it's a sure loss . Probably the same with a skald vs a minstrel if he knows what he's doing, all depending on how fast he loses his pet. The amount of free damage you get from your pet when you're dragging a skald behind you is enough to turn a fight.

You are one of the minstrels who uses pet to the max and almost never melee snares. Ofc you would take the biggest hit. Just git gud, you only scratched the potential of your class and you got stuck there.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:22 AM by Nauglamir
Loki wrote:
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:04 AM
Apart from that - where did I cry?
You did beat up Minstrels before, on both Skald and Shadowblade, depending where you had all your RAs up.
Now can do so even easier, because .. who cried, again?

Brah, you gonna ask that with a straight face ? remember when you said a good shammy can kill a minstrel ? Or a hunter ? or on and on the never ending list of advantages you think other classes have over minstrels.

On SB I can kill Minstrels when they DONT have their RAs up, not when mine are up. If my purge isn't up it's a sure loss . Probably the same with a skald vs a minstrel if he knows what he's doing, all depending on how fast he loses his pet. The amount of free damage you get from your pet when you're dragging a skald behind you is enough to turn a fight.

You are one of the minstrels who uses pet to the max and almost never melee snares. Ofc you would take the biggest hit. Just git gud, you only scratched the potential of your class and you got stuck there.

Again .. where have I been crying?
List of classes that can beat Minstrel is totally valid in my opinion, I'd absolutely add Valewalkers.
Never made a list of advantages other classes have over Minstrels, I think ...
SB with RAs up kills Minstrel without RAs, SB without RAs up looses against Minstrel with RAs , both have RAs up - it's a potential stalemate, one can sos, one can vanish? So what's your point? Want more free kills?
Free (50 speccpoints and constant charming action, totally not free, btw) dmg from dragging a sprinting Skald behind me is exactly zero. In that matter, how much free dmg does Lifebane do? That damn dot, buffed up with viper, outdamages every pet and really needs no effort to be used.

I am one of the Minstrels that doesn't play like the biggest coward and goes into a melee fight until i need to get out again because I am clearly inferior and shouldn't be in melee, because everyone except Bards could rip me apart if I didn't have a big black wolve that watches out for me. Which often goes sour. I got stuck there.

And again ..
You did beat up Minstrels before, on both Skald and Shadowblade, depending which of them had all RAs up.
Now you can do so even easier, because you cried/lobbied for a nerf that actually happened. Congratulations.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:30 AM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:22 AM
SB with RAs up kills Minstrel, SB without RAs up looses against Minstrel with RAs up, Minstrel without RAs up looses gainst SB, both have RAs up - it's a stalemate, you vanish? So what's your point?
Free (50 speccpoints and constant charming action, totally not free, btw) dmg from dragging a sprinting Skald behind me is exactly zero. In that matter, how much free dmg does Lifebane do?

I dont have a point, you brought up SB and now are trying to pretend you didnt. Vanish doesn't bring RPs last time I checked, and if you dont have Purge 5, you cannot re-engage. My god, I have to explain this to someone who allegedly soloes a lot. Any fight happening between the time frame of me not having purge upto when its up, you win automatically. And when my purge is up, the win depends on what RAs the minst has up. Not like openers here do a lot of damage, PA+CD is more of a tool to let you put all poisons in. You can walk out half HP and still SoS and turn around and mezz (that lovely mezz in motion that teiloh pretends to want castable) . Also the "list" you made looks more like a live list than a Phoenix list.

Not even gonna start with the Skald BS, you are either playing dumb or hoping no one here knows how fights look. Skalds don't have lifebane btw.

Anyways, you haven't soloed in weeks so this should give you a good excuse to pretend the nerf destroyed your class.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:32 AM by Razur Ur
For me as Champion is a minstrel very very nervly only 10% of minstrel fighting with pet and meele vs me and the another 90% lets
only fight the charm pet vs me and running around or away after i have snared or killed the charmed pet from minstrel. Most time
i wasted my time vs minstrel ;-/.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:35 AM by Nauglamir
Because you'd rip them apart easily :-P
And that's without endu reduce chant or rr5 ability
Thu 13 Feb 2020 11:20 AM by Nauglamir
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:30 AM
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:22 AM
SB with RAs up kills Minstrel, SB without RAs up looses against Minstrel with RAs up, Minstrel without RAs up looses gainst SB, both have RAs up - it's a stalemate, you vanish? So what's your point?
Free (50 speccpoints and constant charming action, totally not free, btw) dmg from dragging a sprinting Skald behind me is exactly zero. In that matter, how much free dmg does Lifebane do?

I dont have a point, you brought up SB and now are trying to pretend you didnt. Vanish doesn't bring RPs last time I checked, and if you dont have Purge 5, you cannot re-engage. My god, I have to explain this to someone who allegedly soloes a lot. Any fight happening between the time frame of me not having purge upto when its up, you win automatically. And when my purge is up, the win depends on what RAs the minst has up. Not like openers here do a lot of damage, PA+CD is more of a tool to let you put all poisons in. You can walk out half HP and still SoS and turn around and mezz (that lovely mezz in motion that teiloh pretends to want castable) . Also the "list" you made looks more like a live list than a Phoenix list.

Not even gonna start with the Skald BS, you are either playing dumb or hoping no one here knows how fights look. Skalds don't have lifebane btw.

Anyways, you haven't soloed in weeks so this should give you a good excuse to pretend the nerf destroyed your class.

My god, I have to explain this to someone who allegedly soloes a lot. Any fight happening between the time frame of me not having purge upto when its up, you win automatically. And when my purge is up, the win depends on what RAs the sb has up.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:16 PM by Loki
Sry brah, SBs dont have SoS and IP. Purge is down ? You still can SoS after PA and its gg. Nice attempt at mockery, what are you 12?
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:39 PM by Nauglamir
And you think a Minstrel can win the fight with a high rr SB if Purge is down and you got disease+snare+dotpoison on you and the SB has Vanish up?

Btw .. why don't you try to stop insulting people? I'm not 12, I don't want to mock you, I just showed that the argument you brought forth can be used completely the other way around. Which just shows that purge is a mighty tool, nothing else.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 1:30 PM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:39 PM
And you think a Minstrel can win the fight with a high rr SB if Purge is down and you got disease+snare+dotpoison on you and the SB has Vanish up?

Btw .. why don't you try to stop insulting people? I'm not 12, I don't want to mock you, I just showed that the argument you brought forth can be used completely the other way around. Which just shows that purge is a mighty tool, nothing else.
Without a doubt, minstrel can win a fight vs equal RR SB without purge( or at least get out ). 2 hits dont apply 3 poisons. Not sure why you keep mentioning Vanish unless you have the habit of sitting down where your opponent disappeared . I didn’t insult you, you insulted yourself with that kindergarten reply. Maybe use your own logic when making an argument. Trying to say 2 classes are similar in terms of solo strategy, when they are nothing alike .
Thu 13 Feb 2020 1:37 PM by Loki
Maybe Lerox can tell us what was going on before and what has changed, because frankly it seems like a very small change that people treat as a 25% permanent pet damage nerf.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 1:43 PM by Sepplord
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 1:37 PM
Maybe Lerox can tell us what was going on before and what has changed, because frankly it seems like a very small change that people treat as a 25% permanent pet damage nerf.

what is confusing you?

Charmed pets are supposed to do 25% less dmg
Released pets are supposed to do 25% less dmg for a few seconds after release (afaik 10seconds but might remember wrong)

The trigger for that damagereduction was not working in the charmprocess, only the release process. So in general minstrel pets are now doing 25%less dmg since it was fixed.
Only exception: If a minstrel had just released and recharmed it's pet, then the dmg-debuff from the release was still active for a few seconds after recharm already before the fix went in two days ago (i believe it was two days ago, when the gambling was patched in too)


afaik all that information has been mentioned in this thread that you are very active in?
Thu 13 Feb 2020 2:16 PM by Nauglamir
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 1:30 PM
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:39 PM
And you think a Minstrel can win the fight with a high rr SB if Purge is down and you got disease+snare+dotpoison on you and the SB has Vanish up?

Btw .. why don't you try to stop insulting people? I'm not 12, I don't want to mock you, I just showed that the argument you brought forth can be used completely the other way around. Which just shows that purge is a mighty tool, nothing else.
Without a doubt, minstrel can win a fight vs equal RR SB without purge( or at least get out ). 2 hits dont apply 3 poisons. Not sure why you keep mentioning Vanish unless you have the habit of sitting down where your opponent disappeared . I didn’t insult you, you insulted yourself with that kindergarten reply. Maybe use your own logic when making an argument. Trying to say 2 classes are similar in terms of solo strategy, when they are nothing alike .

I mention vanish because - you can at least get out of the fight. As i can with sos. WIth the slight difference that vanish also purges for you.
And 2 hits with 2 weapons (makes 1 click with an ahk script, which every (!) minstrel uses, so for sure every sb does as well) apply 4 poisons.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 2:21 PM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 2:16 PM
Loki wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 1:30 PM
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:39 PM
And you think a Minstrel can win the fight with a high rr SB if Purge is down and you got disease+snare+dotpoison on you and the SB has Vanish up?

Btw .. why don't you try to stop insulting people? I'm not 12, I don't want to mock you, I just showed that the argument you brought forth can be used completely the other way around. Which just shows that purge is a mighty tool, nothing else.
Without a doubt, minstrel can win a fight vs equal RR SB without purge( or at least get out ). 2 hits dont apply 3 poisons. Not sure why you keep mentioning Vanish unless you have the habit of sitting down where your opponent disappeared . I didn’t insult you, you insulted yourself with that kindergarten reply. Maybe use your own logic when making an argument. Trying to say 2 classes are similar in terms of solo strategy, when they are nothing alike .

I mention vanish because - you can at least get out of the fight. As i can with sos. WIth the slight difference that vanish also purges for you.
And 2 hits with 2 weapons (makes 1 click with an ahk script, which every (!) minstrel uses, so for sure every sb does as well) apply 4 poisons.
Vanish only purges bleeds/dots after the 3 sec detection timer, so now I know why you keep mentioning it. If you dont have purge up, you shouldnt SoS after CD, but before. So that’s 2 hits, not 4.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 3:13 PM by Nauglamir
On SB I can kill Minstrels when they DONT have their RAs up, not when mine are up. If my purge isn't up it's a sure loss .

That's why I keep mentioning vanish. I can't kill you if you have it up, I'll just burn through my realmabilities without any reward.
And if my purge isn't up, it's a high probability of loosing the fight.

And in general, I forgot why I engaged again ..
ah, yeah, I wanted to know the name of Teiloh's Minstrel as well and you jumped me because I should get gud and learn to be a better Minstrel, now that the pet was nerfed again, and stop crying

SOS!
And I'm gone :-P
Thu 13 Feb 2020 3:19 PM by joshisanonymous
The minstrels on this board are utterly ridiculous. So now, not only are level 21 BD pets too hard to kill and hunter pets way better than minstrel pets, but bards with 10 in blades hit almost as hard as minstrels? You gotta be shitting me. I straight melee'd other stealthers with my minstrel on live around this same patch and regularly won those fights. I also tried solo'ing on my bard alt a few times and even killing blue mobs was next to impossible. I once came across a solo high RR warrior and was kiting him, using DoTs from champion abilities to see how far down I could get his HPs. I guess it was so absurd that he just stood still and let me keep going until he died. I used my entire power bar twice to kill him, and those DoTs did more damage than my blades. Reading these boards, you might think that minstrels have trouble killing anything whatsoever. (Meanwhile, Nauglamir is sitting over there with over a thousand solo kills, complaining that it's now possible for other classes to kill him.)
Thu 13 Feb 2020 3:21 PM by keen
Minstrel is by no means a 1v1 beast. Especially Vs assassin's that land the pa (very easy) they most likely will not win.
Purge has a 5-7.5min timer for most ppl so it will be always up for the assassin.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:09 PM by Nauglamir
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 3:19 PM
The minstrels on this board are utterly ridiculous. So now, not only are level 21 BD pets too hard to kill and hunter pets way better than minstrel pets, but bards with 10 in blades hit almost as hard as minstrels? You gotta be shitting me. I straight melee'd other stealthers with my minstrel on live around this same patch and regularly won those fights. I also tried solo'ing on my bard alt a few times and even killing blue mobs was next to impossible. I once came across a solo high RR warrior and was kiting him, using DoTs from champion abilities to see how far down I could get his HPs. I guess it was so absurd that he just stood still and let me keep going until he died. I used my entire power bar twice to kill him, and those DoTs did more damage than my blades. Reading these boards, you might think that minstrels have trouble killing anything whatsoever. (Meanwhile, Nauglamir is sitting over there with over a thousand solo kills, complaining that it's now possible for other classes to kill him.)

Man .. I never said lvl 21 bd pets are hard to kill, that hunter pets are way better than minstrel pets, that bards hit almost as hard as minstrels. Never. Not even anything closely like that. And what I especially not did was complaining that it is now possible for other classes to kill me. Read again. Try to comprehend. If it doesn't work, read again. If it still doesn't work, tap 2 insta buttons, maybe that works better.

What I want to point out all the time is that many classes can kill a Minstrel. Often the players behind the class don't, but they could.
Especially now, as minstrel pets do less dmg than a week ago.

And that you played a Minstrel on live is great, I did too, it just doesn't matter at all in any kind of way, as here, most things are different.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:43 PM by teiloh
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 3:19 PM
The minstrels on this board are utterly ridiculous. So now, not only are level 21 BD pets too hard to kill and hunter pets way better than minstrel pets, but bards with 10 in blades hit almost as hard as minstrels? You gotta be shitting me. I straight melee'd other stealthers with my minstrel on live around this same patch and regularly won those fights. I also tried solo'ing on my bard alt a few times and even killing blue mobs was next to impossible. I once came across a solo high RR warrior and was kiting him, using DoTs from champion abilities to see how far down I could get his HPs. I guess it was so absurd that he just stood still and let me keep going until he died. I used my entire power bar twice to kill him, and those DoTs did more damage than my blades. Reading these boards, you might think that minstrels have trouble killing anything whatsoever. (Meanwhile, Nauglamir is sitting over there with over a thousand solo kills, complaining that it's now possible for other classes to kill him.)

21 BD pets don't have much HP and absorb, they're just costly to kill because 1, the BD will be spamming interrupts on you if you're a caster and 2, you will be out of position getting nuked if you're a melee.

Bards and Minstrels are on the same damage table. Go spec battle bard if you want to fight like a Minstrel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W3cW5eph9c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FjMeqh7AFQ
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:15 PM by joshisanonymous
Nauglamir wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:09 PM
Man .. I never said lvl 21 bd pets are hard to kill, that hunter pets are way better than minstrel pets, that bards hit almost as hard as minstrels. Never. Not even anything closely like that. And what I especially not did was complaining that it is now possible for other classes to kill me. Read again. Try to comprehend. If it doesn't work, read again. If it still doesn't work, tap 2 insta buttons, maybe that works better.

What I want to point out all the time is that many classes can kill a Minstrel. Often the players behind the class don't, but they could.
Especially now, as minstrel pets do less dmg than a week ago.

And that you played a Minstrel on live is great, I did too, it just doesn't matter at all in any kind of way, as here, most things are different.

For reading comprehension, notice that I wrote minstrelS, as in plural. No you didn't talk about level 21 BD pets, but teiloh, another minstrel (read: plural) did.

You did, however, absolutely complain about minstrel pets being weaker than hunter pets:

Nauglamir wrote: I would not be surprised if a Hunter pet, due to it's ability to run at sprint speed+, outdamages a Minstrel pet in a lot of regular rvr situations by now.

Nauglamir wrote: And yes, I can snare for the pet, we can assist down on one target. If I send the pet on one target and take care of something else, it will maybe hit 1 or 2 times, then the sprinting target is out of range. In that case (which is every caster or supporter), a hunter pet, possibly str/con buffed and hidden behind a tree or under a dock, can outperform and outdamage the minstrel pet, I am sure of that. And there are no good ranged pets on this server.

And you absolutely did express that these nerfs are a shame because now other classes have the possibility of killing a minstrel:

Nauglamir wrote: The class is still playable and fun, but you guys should assure yourself that it is far from where it is/was on live and has been hit by the nerf slashhammer more than enough, to a point where a lot of classes can beat them 1 on 1 (which seems to be the fuel of this thread) if properly played.

If minstrels have been nerfed enough that "a lot of classes can beat them 1 on 1", that clearly implies that a lot of classes couldn't do that before the nerf, otherwise, what's your issue with the nerf? That quote also makes it evident that you do think live is relevant, but apparently not when it supports me pointing out that you're being ridiculous.

For the record, I don't think minstrel pets need nerfing except perhaps they shouldn't be un-CCable. But, the arguments put out here by you and other minstrels are absurd. You have over 1,000 solo kills. Why don't you find hunters doing that well? Same for teiloh, who seems to think that every other pet in the game is exceptional compared to his red un-CCable pets, but as soon as I accused him of being a bad player, he claimed that he could stomp me solo. Y'all are at such disadvantages that you're veritable supermen when solo. Makes no sense.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot, you absolutely did say that bards do almost as much damage as minstrels:

Nauglamir wrote: because Minstrel melee dps is only undercut by Bards that have 10 speccpoints in blade

Teiloh is one-upping you there, though, by claiming that bards don't do almost as much damage, they do just as much damage:

teiloh wrote: Bards and Minstrels are on the same damage table. Go spec battle bard if you want to fight like a Minstrel.

Y'all are insane.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:19 PM by teiloh
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:15 PM
he claimed that he could stomp me solo. Y'all are at such disadvantages that you're veritable supermen when solo. Makes no sense.

BD mains are usually a certain type ... two fingers, fewer braincells.

You'd get stomped even harder by a different class though.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:47 PM by teiloh
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:15 PM
Teiloh is one-upping you there, though, by claiming that bards don't do almost as much damage, they do just as much damage:

teiloh wrote: Bards and Minstrels are on the same damage table. Go spec battle bard if you want to fight like a Minstrel.

Y'all are insane.

They're literally on the same damage table:

https://imgur.com/a/3hW12Bx

A BD talking about overpowered ... just lol
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:23 PM by jwalker
I mean you can all talk about how difficult minstrel is to play and how its not too versatile for being so strong solo but the numbers clearly show that minstrel is FOTM at the moment

Top 100 solo kills last week: 1st place = Minstrel with 19 characters
Top 100 realmpoints of hybrids: 1st place = Minstel with 32 characters
Top 100 realmpoints of stealther: 1st place = Minstrels with 24 characters
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:38 PM by teiloh
jwalker wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:23 PM
I mean you can all talk about how difficult minstrel is to play and how its not too versatile for being so strong solo but the numbers clearly show that minstrel is FOTM at the moment

Top 100 solo kills last week: 1st place = Minstrel with 19 characters
Top 100 realmpoints of hybrids: 1st place = Minstel with 32 characters
Top 100 realmpoints of stealther: 1st place = Minstrels with 24 characters

Why are you surprised that a class that ticks both a speed and stealth box is popular solo? If we go by "the numbers" shouldn't Midgard be nerfed to shit?
Thu 13 Feb 2020 10:08 PM by joshisanonymous
Teiloh, I play a class that's very strong solo -- I've never said otherwise. You, however, also play a class that's incredibly strong solo, and instead of just acknowledging that, you come to the forums and make absurd arguments about how weak your class is. Relax, you're fine, you don't need a nerf, but you sure as hell aren't underpowered either. If you really do feel like you're underpowered, though, I can only conclude that it's because you're a terrible player.
Thu 13 Feb 2020 10:10 PM by teiloh
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 10:08 PM
Teiloh, I play a class that's very strong solo -- I've never said otherwise. You, however, also play a class that's incredibly strong solo, and instead of just acknowledging that, you come to the forums and make absurd arguments about how weak your class is. Relax, you're fine, you don't need a nerf, but you sure as hell aren't underpowered either. If you really do feel like you're underpowered, though, I can only conclude that it's because you're a terrible player.

You need to learn how to read, but then again you do play a BD so maybe I should congratulate you for being a relative intellectual titan.
Fri 14 Feb 2020 1:21 AM by Forlornhope
pollojack wrote:
Fri 14 Feb 2020 12:51 AM


As a Star Trek fan I appreciate this post. I'm also surprised as hell this hasn't been locked already.
Fri 14 Feb 2020 7:10 AM by Razur Ur
Haha rly you guys compare a BD Pet with a Minstrel red/purple pet? I dont like both class but i need only 2 til 3 hits with my champion for a commander!
For a charmed red minstrelpet i needed 5 til 6 hits for killing this pet and must hope, that this charmed pet not have range attack! I prefer a fight vs
a bd but both classes sucks vs meele fighter ;-).
Fri 14 Feb 2020 9:59 AM by teiloh
Razur Ur wrote:
Fri 14 Feb 2020 7:10 AM
Haha rly you guys compare a BD Pet with a Minstrel red/purple pet? I dont like both class but i need only 2 til 3 hits with my champion for a commander!
For a charmed red minstrelpet i needed 5 til 6 hits for killing this pet and must hope, that this charmed pet not have range attack! I prefer a fight vs
a bd but both classes sucks vs meele fighter ;-).

They shouldn't be sending a commander at you unless they're healing it
Fri 14 Feb 2020 10:05 AM by Came
Nerf this foking Minstrel seriously
Fri 14 Feb 2020 11:28 AM by Loki
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 13 Feb 2020 1:43 PM
Charmed pets are supposed to do 25% less dmg
Released pets are supposed to do 25% less dmg for a few seconds after release (afaik 10seconds but might remember wrong)

The trigger for that damagereduction was not working in the charmprocess, only the release process. So in general minstrel pets are now doing 25%less dmg since it was fixed.
Only exception: If a minstrel had just released and recharmed it's pet, then the dmg-debuff from the release was still active for a few seconds after recharm already before the fix went in two days ago (i believe it was two days ago, when the gambling was patched in too)

What I understood was that charmed pets did intended damage until the moment when minst released and recharmed them in order to break his own cc , which caused the recharmed pet to do full damage for a few swings or seconds after. The way you explain it is slightly different. If that is the case, you can't call it a general 25% damage decrease just because of the few seconds where it was doing 100% (which was situational, the pet needs to be released).
Fri 14 Feb 2020 11:34 AM by Sepplord
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 1:20 PM
Nauglamir wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 1:13 PM
So, -25% pet dmg as of today, see you on the battlefield :-P

As I said earlier in this thread, when it was changed sometime last year the damage minstrels receive after their pet release was the intended damage all players / pets receive from charmed pets.
The charm flag was until today only set when charm was removed -> minstrel was receiving the intended damage when doing the cc dance and so did the target of the minstrel for the first couple hits afterwards but after 15 seconds it reverted to normal mob damage again.

pretty clear to me:

after release dmg was always working as intended

charming didn't trigger the reduction correctly
Fri 14 Feb 2020 11:55 AM by Nauglamir
Yeah, not so hard to understand.
But .. :-P
Fri 14 Feb 2020 12:02 PM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Fri 14 Feb 2020 11:55 AM
Yeah, not so hard to understand.
But .. :-P

#StillButthurt
Fri 14 Feb 2020 12:23 PM by Nauglamir
Nah, that was just too much of an invitation to let go :-P
Sat 15 Feb 2020 11:33 AM by Ninion
TBF as a VW, mini's and BD's are the two classes I find really hard to beat solo. Even since the pet "nerf". It won't stop me trying tho.

I've fought Nauglamir a few times, managed 1 win I think? But hey props that he's one of the few that won't log when SOS is down, he still comes bk and kicks my arse
Sat 15 Feb 2020 9:15 PM by Astaa
Easy fix.

Make re-charm spell cost 10 end/mana. meaning there is a risk to taking a higher level pet.

Fixed.
Sun 16 Feb 2020 6:09 AM by Nauglamir
There is a risk of taking a higher level pet. You loose control and it bites you, fucking up your game.
Sun 16 Feb 2020 8:39 AM by Loki
Nauglamir wrote:
Sun 16 Feb 2020 6:09 AM
There is a risk of taking a higher level pet. You loose control and it bites you, fucking up your game.

Unless you tell it to bite you, upping your game ... In that case, it's cool
Sun 16 Feb 2020 8:48 AM by Nauglamir
Loki wrote:
Sun 16 Feb 2020 8:39 AM
Nauglamir wrote:
Sun 16 Feb 2020 6:09 AM
There is a risk of taking a higher level pet. You loose control and it bites you, fucking up your game.

Unless you tell it to bite you, upping your game ... In that case, it's cool

That's not loosing control, so it's cool, you got it right
Sun 16 Feb 2020 9:45 PM by Siouxsie
Hi,

Original Poster here. Seen 2 minstrels running around *THIDRANKI* with red pets. On live this was not possible until at least RR6 / Level 50. Please fix this obviously very broken mechanic.
Mon 17 Feb 2020 12:38 AM by pollojack
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 16 Feb 2020 9:45 PM
Hi,

Original Poster here. Seen 2 minstrels running around *THIDRANKI* with red pets. On live this was not possible until at least RR6 / Level 50. Please fix this obviously very broken mechanic.

Oi, it takes a lot of skill to tame that named mob with a LD proc. You should just accept Thid is for the Albs.
Mon 17 Feb 2020 2:02 AM by teiloh
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 16 Feb 2020 9:45 PM
Hi,

Original Poster here. Seen 2 minstrels running around *THIDRANKI* with red pets. On live this was not possible until at least RR6 / Level 50. Please fix this obviously very broken mechanic.

Yes, it was possible.

Get over it.
Tue 24 Mar 2020 4:08 AM by joshisanonymous
Nauglamir wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:07 PM
A BD that knows what he is doing can basically not loose.
Properly played Skalds with equal RR (being Slash and Kasimier, basically) are incredibly hard, not allowing for any mistake - and even if there are none, it's a 50/50 chance at max.
Properly played Shadowblade/Nightshade, knowing when to purge and how to switch weapons is very hard.
Properly played SM is extremely hard. [Impossible, actually.]
Properly played Hunter would be hard, have not met one.
Thane that knows how to use his tools is extremely hard.
Every properly played shieldtank is extremely hard.
Shamans that are properly played are hard.
Champions are a nightmare.
Every caster that runs solo is a free kill. [At least you were honest about this part.]

Just wanted to point out to everyone how amazingly disengenuous this post was. You just easily killed my SM with your red barguest. Why? Because you and your pet are literally un-CCable, and you have speed 6, which leaves me with no option other than MoC... or so I thought. Apparently, your red pet can interrupt most of my casts while I'm using MoC, and you clearly knew about this since you pointed to the pet and shook your head no after I died. Yet in your post, you claimed that a well played SM is hard to win against. I'm not sure what you expect SMs to do that would make them hard to win against.
Tue 24 Mar 2020 7:26 AM by Nauglamir
joshisanonymous wrote:
Tue 24 Mar 2020 4:08 AM
Nauglamir wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:07 PM
A BD that knows what he is doing can basically not loose.
Properly played Skalds with equal RR (being Slash and Kasimier, basically) are incredibly hard, not allowing for any mistake - and even if there are none, it's a 50/50 chance at max.
Properly played Shadowblade/Nightshade, knowing when to purge and how to switch weapons is very hard.
Properly played SM is extremely hard. [Impossible, actually.]
Properly played Hunter would be hard, have not met one.
Thane that knows how to use his tools is extremely hard.
Every properly played shieldtank is extremely hard.
Shamans that are properly played are hard.
Champions are a nightmare.
Every caster that runs solo is a free kill. [At least you were honest about this part.]

Just wanted to point out to everyone how amazingly disengenuous this post was. You just easily killed my SM with your red barguest. Why? Because you and your pet are literally un-CCable, and you have speed 6, which leaves me with no option other than MoC... or so I thought. Apparently, your red pet can interrupt most of my casts while I'm using MoC, and you clearly knew about this since you pointed to the pet and shook your head no after I died. Yet in your post, you claimed that a well played SM is hard to win against. I'm not sure what you expect SMs to do that would make them hard to win against.

Caught you rebuffing (perfect inc for me), you did not recast pet or use debuffs, purged and mocced at the wrong point in time - still got me to 30%, including healpot & healcharge. Ask Bombzzz for further info about your class, please - definitely not impossible. As easy as taking out a pure melee, pressing 1 button while sipping from your coffee? Probably not. Doable? At comparable realmrank and without mistakes, probably

Still think that list is valid. Would absolutely add Valewalker,tho
Wed 25 Mar 2020 10:13 AM by teiloh
Yeah a SM is gonna need those shields, lol
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:57 PM by joshisanonymous
Nauglamir wrote:
Tue 24 Mar 2020 7:26 AM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Tue 24 Mar 2020 4:08 AM
Nauglamir wrote:
Fri 27 Dec 2019 8:07 PM
A BD that knows what he is doing can basically not loose.
Properly played Skalds with equal RR (being Slash and Kasimier, basically) are incredibly hard, not allowing for any mistake - and even if there are none, it's a 50/50 chance at max.
Properly played Shadowblade/Nightshade, knowing when to purge and how to switch weapons is very hard.
Properly played SM is extremely hard. [Impossible, actually.]
Properly played Hunter would be hard, have not met one.
Thane that knows how to use his tools is extremely hard.
Every properly played shieldtank is extremely hard.
Shamans that are properly played are hard.
Champions are a nightmare.
Every caster that runs solo is a free kill. [At least you were honest about this part.]

Just wanted to point out to everyone how amazingly disengenuous this post was. You just easily killed my SM with your red barguest. Why? Because you and your pet are literally un-CCable, and you have speed 6, which leaves me with no option other than MoC... or so I thought. Apparently, your red pet can interrupt most of my casts while I'm using MoC, and you clearly knew about this since you pointed to the pet and shook your head no after I died. Yet in your post, you claimed that a well played SM is hard to win against. I'm not sure what you expect SMs to do that would make them hard to win against.

Caught you rebuffing (perfect inc for me), you did not recast pet or use debuffs, purged and mocced at the wrong point in time - still got me to 30%, including healpot & healcharge. Ask Bombzzz for further info about your class, please - definitely not impossible. As easy as taking out a pure melee, pressing 1 button while sipping from your coffee? Probably not. Doable? At comparable realmrank and without mistakes, probably

Still think that list is valid. Would absolutely add Valewalker,tho

Of course I didn't play perfectly*, because I wasn't expecting my uninterruptable casting to get interrupted. However, if I had purged stun instead of mez, then I would've been in only a slightly better position, maybe better enough that I could've recasted my pet, but that takes a second if I'm not quickcasting it, during which I'm not getting health back while you have a high red pet beating on my cloth-wearing caster. Of course, I wouldn't have been able to recast my pet anyway since almost every cast was interrupted while I was MoCing, which also means that my pet wasn't slowing things down too much, which happens when it's trying to intercept two attackers instead of just one. Literally the only chance I have in that situation is to MoC and hope for the best (and yes, remember to wait for the stun before purging and to use my debuffs).

I wish I hadn't posted this, actually, not because it's not ridiculous, but because it's not entirely fair relative to my class. I like to play casters because winning a fight as a caster is less about luck (i.e., You screw up, you die. You don't screw up, you usually have a way to counter and win.). Only sometimes do things come down to luck with casters, so dying to a minstrel through bad luck (i.e., too many interrupts while MoCing), especially when I didn't even know that was possible, and knowing that you had claimed that SMs are hard classes to win against was frustrating to say the least. However, I recognize that for melees, winning against an SM is often just luck, too, so I shouldn't be one to complain.

I still don't think minstrel pets themselves need to be nerfed, but I definitely think you vastly overstate how difficult it is to beat these classes as a minstrel, and I definitely think the whole un-CCable pet&minstrel and ability to interrupt uninterruptable casters needs to be looked at.

*EDIT: Funnily enough, I happened to record this fight and came across it today, and what do you kow, Nauglamir lied about how that fight went down. He mezzed me, I purged, attempted to cast hoping for intercepts, but he stunned me and my pet was almost dead, so I MoC'd after the stun, at which points I got maybe 2 casts off and then got interrupted some three times in a row. Very different from how it was described, except for that I didn't recast my pet when I MoC'd (because it would've taken a long time and I was dying).

I've been luckier in subsequent fights against other minstrels when the situation was the same, but yeah, winning a fight like that as an SM is 40 RA points (purge 2 and MoC5) and luck.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:27 PM by Isavyr
Teiloh is the one of the few players (minstrel or otherwise) that thinks Minstrels are fine, largely because he wants them to be broken as they were in classic. No amount of logic or reasoning will convince him otherwise because his premise is that they should be broken like they were in classic, and anyway, if reasoning could have convinced him, it would have done so 25 pages ago; it didn't, or players like him, because there is no adequate reply.

There's no point in discussing this anymore because it's clear the naysayers have no leg to stand on.

The only thing worth discussing is how they need to be changed. In my opinion, it's very clear; they need to lose the ability to release the pet and drop CC off the pet. Currently, the class has a mechanic which is both overpowered and uncounterable. It's incredibly stupid to gameplay.

Leave the pet strong. Leave it unique. Leave it able to break the minstrel's CC if the pet is clear. Leave it able to break groupmates out of mezz and roots when released. Simply allow it to be CC'd like every other f*cking thing in the game.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:36 PM by borodino1812
Seems change is coming at last.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12982
Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:52 PM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote:
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:27 PM
Teiloh is the one of the few players (minstrel or otherwise) that thinks Minstrels are fine, largely because he wants them to be broken as they were in classic. No amount of logic or reasoning will convince him otherwise because his premise is that they should be broken like they were in classic, and anyway, if reasoning could have convinced him, it would have done so 25 pages ago; it didn't, or players like him, because there is no adequate reply.

There's no point in discussing this anymore because it's clear the naysayers have no leg to stand on.

The only thing worth discussing is how they need to be changed. In my opinion, it's very clear; they need to lose the ability to release the pet and drop CC off the pet. Currently, the class has a mechanic which is both overpowered and uncounterable. It's incredibly stupid to gameplay.

Leave the pet strong. Leave it unique. Leave it able to break the minstrel's CC if the pet is clear. Leave it able to break groupmates out of mezz and roots when released. Simply allow it to be CC'd like every other f*cking thing in the game.
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