Need a clarification about the new HP buff - (potentially a necro nerf?)

Started 9 Nov 2019
by Strikejk
in Ask the Team
Hi,
I need a clarification about how the new HP buff from the most recent patch is actually done.
Is it a flat HP increase for everyone?
Or is it a HP increase by increasing the modifier of con to hp?

If it is the increase of the con to hp modifier, does this only affect the 75 con the necro pet gets from items?
Because if this is this is the case, which seems most likely from the thread about future patches this is a substantial nerf to necros that needs to be addressed.

The reason for this is as follows:
All regular classes have a reasonable small flat amount of base HP, which then gets increased by their base con, their con increase from level ups, their con from items, hits from items and RA's.
The necro pet however starts with a very high flat amount of base HP (on the last level), this is because it only gets the 75 con from items on top of that. So it does not get the base con or the con from level increase like regular classes.
This means that the con to hp modifier for the necro pet only affects 75 con, instead of regular classes where it affects ~180 con, so increasing the modifier grants all other classes a much higher HP boost than the necro gets for his necro pet.

Example (with some incorrect example numbers but it gets the point across):
Before the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 3 )) = 600+((180)*3) = 1140 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 3 ) = 1000+(75*3) = 1225 Hitpoints
After the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 4 )) = 600+((180)*4) = 1320 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 4 ) = 1000+(75*4) = 1300 Hitpoints

As you can see in the example the necro would benefit much less from the change due to the circumstances that Mythic back in the days was lazy enough to just give the necro pet a high flat amount of HP to compensate for the non-existent con regular classes get. While this is normally not an issue, the high flat amount of HP it got was basically derived from the con the other classes get and thus balanced. However this balance is in shambles if you just increase the con modifier without considering the necro pet. The necro pet flat amount of HP needs to be adjusted to give it an equal increase as the other classes get.

Basically, if a caster now has 300 HP more, the necro pet also should have 300 HP more and not 150 because of a design flaw from 20 years ago.

Thanks.

Edit: With the latest patch we also got NPC damage increase and while we are at the necro topic I would like to know if that applies to the necro aswell. Furthermore I would like to add that if now all PvE mobs do more damage and all classes got more HP to counterbalance that, with the exception of the necro, this is even more of a nerf to the necro which now affects both RvR and PvE. This needs to be addressed, thanks for reading.
Sat 9 Nov 2019 9:15 AM by Killaloth
Man with all due respect I haven't seen any alb grp running a necro so far. Necro are strong pve farming class and they will continue to be.

If you plan to run solo to kill tanks you'll prolly need 1 more cast to get the rps you need to be more efficient in pve.

Unless you plan to run a 8 man setup with necro and Theurgs to counter the full mongo Mid setup, in that case I'm with you.
Sat 9 Nov 2019 9:56 AM by Herf
@Killaloth the meta of the game drives a lot into mid mongo setups. More HP, celerity and det9 on almost all classes expect healer/shaman.

On an Alb setup its rather difficult to break their speed in 75% of all inc in 8vs8 you have the tanks constantly inside your caster/supporter setup. One even two peelers cant control 2 savages who two hit a caster ( even with pd7+) overtime.. . and now you even can't burst em down with a qc for some time to run.

I see that many Albs will do the the tank setup - with af debuffing necro. It will a butthurt to get used after 12 years of playing caster setup but we will see.

I don't play hib in this meta, but i think you will get into same problems on the caster heavy ench +2/+3 dd setup.

When the changes with procs really go live in the announced form i think i will quit this server.
Sat 9 Nov 2019 1:50 PM by Killaloth
Herf wrote:
Sat 9 Nov 2019 9:56 AM
@Killaloth the meta of the game drives a lot into mid mongo setups. More HP, celerity and det9 on almost all classes expect healer/shaman.

On an Alb setup its rather difficult to break their speed in 75% of all inc in 8vs8 you have the tanks constantly inside your caster/supporter setup. One even two peelers cant control 2 savages who two hit a caster ( even with pd7+) overtime.. . and now you even can't burst em down with a qc for some time to run.

I see that many Albs will do the the tank setup - with af debuffing necro. It will a butthurt to get used after 12 years of playing caster setup but we will see.

I don't play hib in this meta, but i think you will get into same problems on the caster heavy ench +2/+3 dd setup.

When the changes with procs really go live in the announced form i think i will quit this server.

Yes on Alb a tank setup with necro debuff and 2 theurgs should work. Nesretnik was suggesting it while chatting with him, I think it can work.

The main function of a necro would be to AF debuff while following the assist train, do you see it being the first target? Do they need more hps?

I have no idea about how this will affect an Hib caster grp, let's see. Most decent players already have a high rr caster I guess we will just have to kite and kite more while hopefully not finishing a mana bar, HoL and mana barrels during an inc, which I see it happening but let's see.

Btw this is all paper daoc, in reality better grps will continue to win due to better play and I like to take Dark Dawn as an example when they rerolled to low RR toons on Alb and continued to kick high RR asses.
Tue 12 Nov 2019 3:45 AM by VypirX504
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 3 )) = 600+((180)*3) = 1140 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 3 ) = 1000+(75*3) = 1225 Hitpoints
After the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 4 )) = 600+((180)*4) = 1320 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 4 ) = 1000+(75*4) = 1300 Hitpoints

..................

So you were ahead 85hp before and now that your 20hp down its a "substantial" nerf? Looks like a balance to me
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:36 AM by easytoremember
VypirX504 wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 3:45 AM
So you were ahead 85hp before and now that your 20hp down its a "substantial" nerf? Looks like a balance to me
It's a blue mob
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:38 AM by Sepplord
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:36 AM
VypirX504 wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 3:45 AM
So you were ahead 85hp before and now that your 20hp down its a "substantial" nerf? Looks like a balance to me
It's a blue mob

tell that to melees
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:53 AM by easytoremember
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:38 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:36 AM
VypirX504 wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 3:45 AM
So you were ahead 85hp before and now that your 20hp down its a "substantial" nerf? Looks like a balance to me
It's a blue mob

tell that to melees
There exist specs other than straight deathsight, as trash as they may be
Tue 12 Nov 2019 8:09 AM by Sepplord
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:53 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:38 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:36 AM
It's a blue mob

tell that to melees
There exist specs other than straight deathsight, as trash as they may be

So balancing to classes should alway take the worst possible specc as powerlevel to base changes on?
Or should it take the best speccs powerlevel as basis?

Imo clearly the best one...otherwise Bards really need a huge buff. 46blades/47blunt is really not competitive at all currently. Please buff HP until that specc is viable.
Tue 12 Nov 2019 9:03 PM by easytoremember
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 8:09 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:53 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:38 AM
tell that to melees
There exist specs other than straight deathsight, as trash as they may be

So balancing to classes should alway take the worst possible specc as powerlevel to base changes on?
Or should it take the best speccs powerlevel as basis?

Imo clearly the best one...otherwise Bards really need a huge buff. 46blades/47blunt is really not competitive at all currently. Please buff HP until that specc is viable.
No matter how you spec a bard he doesn't melt
Wed 13 Nov 2019 2:36 AM by Strikejk
VypirX504 wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 3:45 AM
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 3 )) = 600+((180)*3) = 1140 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 3 ) = 1000+(75*3) = 1225 Hitpoints
After the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 4 )) = 600+((180)*4) = 1320 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 4 ) = 1000+(75*4) = 1300 Hitpoints

..................

So you were ahead 85hp before and now that your 20hp down its a "substantial" nerf? Looks like a balance to me
Please read the text more carefully, thanks.
Wed 13 Nov 2019 7:49 AM by Sepplord
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 2:36 AM
VypirX504 wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 3:45 AM
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 3 )) = 600+((180)*3) = 1140 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 3 ) = 1000+(75*3) = 1225 Hitpoints
After the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 4 )) = 600+((180)*4) = 1320 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 4 ) = 1000+(75*4) = 1300 Hitpoints

..................

So you were ahead 85hp before and now that your 20hp down its a "substantial" nerf? Looks like a balance to me
Please read the text more carefully, thanks.
i reread the quote, and i come to the same numbers as he did... ?
Wed 13 Nov 2019 7:49 AM by Sepplord
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 9:03 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 8:09 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 7:53 AM
There exist specs other than straight deathsight, as trash as they may be

So balancing to classes should alway take the worst possible specc as powerlevel to base changes on?
Or should it take the best speccs powerlevel as basis?

Imo clearly the best one...otherwise Bards really need a huge buff. 46blades/47blunt is really not competitive at all currently. Please buff HP until that specc is viable.
No matter how you spec a bard he doesn't melt
way to dodge the question
Wed 13 Nov 2019 8:41 AM by easytoremember
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 7:49 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 9:03 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 12 Nov 2019 8:09 AM
So balancing to classes should alway take the worst possible specc as powerlevel to base changes on?
Or should it take the best speccs powerlevel as basis?

Imo clearly the best one...otherwise Bards really need a huge buff. 46blades/47blunt is really not competitive at all currently. Please buff HP until that specc is viable.
No matter how you spec a bard he doesn't melt
way to dodge the question

Your comparison/question didn't make sense
You have classes that are vulnerable to melee (primary casters) but they all have buffs to alleviate that excessive vulnerability no matter how they spec (af,abs,bubble)
Even a Friar that puts nothing into Enhancement has Leather armor.
Is a staff Friar with no enhance going to work? No.

The example numbers don't even include CON (83) from potions and the necro is unable to place potion buffs onto the pet (CON on necropet increases abs instead of providing hitpoints so debuffnuke explodes pet)

And the quote you're looking at is incomplete
Strikejk wrote:
Sat 9 Nov 2019 3:07 AM
Example (with some incorrect example numbers but it gets the point across):
Before the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 3 )) = 600+((180)*3) = 1140 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 3 ) = 1000+(75*3) = 1225 Hitpoints
After the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 4 )) = 600+((180)*4) = 1320 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 4 ) = 1000+(75*4) = 1300 Hitpoints
Wed 13 Nov 2019 10:09 AM by Sepplord
easytoremember wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 8:41 AM
[...]

Good that you agree that the argument is ridiculous. That was the point of making it. You cannot adjust Necros mechanics for only "the other" speccs, just as you don't balance a bard around full-melee specc or a staff friar without enhancement. That was exactly the point i was making when making that comparison.

Example (with some incorrect example numbers but it gets the point across):

Not sure how to say this without being snarky...but, obviosly it didn't get the point across at all
Wed 13 Nov 2019 12:19 PM by Strikejk
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 10:09 AM
Example (with some incorrect example numbers but it gets the point across):
Not sure how to say this without being snarky...but, obviosly it didn't get the point across at all
Yes apparently it didn't.. but then again, without being snarky, I didn't expect to need an example in the first place to show that a char, that has almost no "con" like all other classes in the game, due to the old necro design, benefits much less from a con to hp modifier increase in comparison. Like- it's a pretty simple thing really. All chars get a pile of con, the necro pet gets a pile of raw HP instead, now you buff hp to con modifier and the necro gets screwed. And all that only because mythic back in the day was to lazy to properly give necro pets the con from players but instead they manually gave the pet a very high base hp value. Granted for the end user it makes no difference as in the end it's just an hp number. Its only a problem cause phoenix devs play around with the numbers and thus get the balance out of whack.

..But apparently there are some people who even fail to do the most basic function of reading my post in the first place, unlike you, and work with numbers that are absolutely boogus. For example the base HP of a necro pet is 1708. So honestly, if people don't even read the text, it's impossible to get a point across.

Have a good day mate
Wed 13 Nov 2019 9:10 PM by easytoremember
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 10:09 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 8:41 AM
[...]

Good that you agree that the argument is ridiculous. That was the point of making it. You cannot adjust Necros mechanics for only "the other" speccs, just as you don't balance a bard around full-melee specc or a staff friar without enhancement. That was exactly the point i was making when making that comparison.
No my point is even the gimpest friar/bard/cloth etc do not
explode because they have hitpoints and some armor or buffs in the case of cloth
The necropet starts with bigger hp because it's a lv45 mob with only a base dex buff

To reiterate for you no matter how trash a class is they have a minimum bulk, and for the necropet it's big in hitpoints because being 45 is effectively more STR/ACU to the attacker. If you can't understand that go hit a grey mob and contemplate why you're hitting for cap damage. Then hit that mob with a debuff of some sort and wonder why your damage doesn't go up
Wed 13 Nov 2019 9:43 PM by Sepplord
Which brings us back to the argument that the necro doesnt explode at all vs melees. Quite the opposite.

They necropet is nowhere close to the sturdiness of a blue von trash mob. Just because some calculations treat it like one doesnt mean it is one.

Btw. i am not denying that the Con-to-HP change doesnt help necros like it helps other classes. But loads of matchups got changed by it. Not only necro VS all.
Thu 14 Nov 2019 2:03 AM by easytoremember
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 9:43 PM
Which brings us back to the argument that the necro doesnt explode at all vs melees. Quite the opposite.
You're thinking of sight necro
Thu 14 Nov 2019 7:50 AM by Sepplord
easytoremember wrote:
Thu 14 Nov 2019 2:03 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 9:43 PM
Which brings us back to the argument that the necro doesnt explode at all vs melees. Quite the opposite.
You're thinking of sight necro

yes, that was the response last time too...should i just repeat the same answer again and we spin in circles ad infinitum or do you have any new information regarding the subject?
Thu 14 Nov 2019 7:34 PM by easytoremember
easytoremember wrote:
Wed 13 Nov 2019 9:10 PM
No my point is even the gimpest friar/bard/cloth etc do not
explode because they have hitpoints and some armor or buffs in the case of cloth
The necropet starts with bigger hp because it's a lv45 mob with only a base dex buff

To reiterate for you no matter how trash a class is they have a minimum bulk, and for the necropet it's big in hitpoints because being 45 is effectively more STR/ACU to the attacker.
Just 2 posts ago, irrelevant to spec, all classes being with leniant defense to melee/magic
In the case of necro, recieving larger amounts of damage by default, it begins with a large hp pool

Do you understand?
Thu 14 Nov 2019 8:42 PM by Sepplord
no sorry, i can't make sense of that gibberrish

Before we were just in disagreement but i was understanding the sentences you were writing. But in that last comment something must have gone wrong or autocorrect did a few things. I habe no idea what that pile of words is supposed to mean
Thu 14 Nov 2019 8:52 PM by easytoremember
cloth no buff big hurt normal hp
cloth use free buff
cloth normal hurt normal hp
blue pet big hurt
big hurt big hp
big hurt big hp like normal hurt normal hp
Mon 18 Nov 2019 2:13 PM by Strikejk
I don't want to be rude but I (and many other Necros) still wait on a clarification here.
It surely can't be that hard to give atleast a quick yes/no answer if the necro received a shadow-nerf with the HP change.
Please don't ignore this topic.
Tue 19 Nov 2019 6:07 AM by pollojack
However you cut it, a RR5 necro with VP 3, Ichor 1, and MoM 2 can solo a RR 12 NS while only using purge, heal pot, HoL. Necro could use a nerf frankly, along with SM, and BD.

No, I didn't use VP or Ichor on the NS. I have those in the hopes of instagibbing a BD pet chain. Unfortunately, in my two weeks of trying I am yet to fight a BD that is solo so I still have no idea if the strat works. I believe I will need to get VP 4 or 5 but with the HP buff perhaps the minions are plain unkillable now. Ichor 4 was unable to kill grey pets of some blue con BD.
Fri 22 Nov 2019 3:04 PM by Strikejk
pollojack wrote:
Tue 19 Nov 2019 6:07 AM
However you cut it, a RR5 necro with VP 3, Ichor 1, and MoM 2 can solo a RR 12 NS while only using purge, heal pot, HoL. Necro could use a nerf frankly, along with SM, and BD.

No, I didn't use VP or Ichor on the NS. I have those in the hopes of instagibbing a BD pet chain. Unfortunately, in my two weeks of trying I am yet to fight a BD that is solo so I still have no idea if the strat works. I believe I will need to get VP 4 or 5 but with the HP buff perhaps the minions are plain unkillable now. Ichor 4 was unable to kill grey pets of some blue con BD.

This has nothing to do with, if in your opinion, the necro needs a nerf. (In my opinion it does not, but other classes do). IF it needed a nerf they can always do that at their own discretion.

This thread is about a shadow-nerf due to the necro working differently than regular classes. And the fact nobody of the team stepped in to say "no, all is fine with the necro" after a whole month pretty much confirmes this. They don't answer to avoid the shit-show and outcry from shadow-nerfing the necro without properly communicating this (and thus many necro players not being aware).
Wed 4 Dec 2019 7:39 AM by Uthred
Please dont insult and flame each other. That doesnt make any argument any better.

The intention of the HP buff was pretty clear. Atleast we stated it multiple times: To buff melees a little vs casters. As the necro is more a caster than a melee, it is not a shadow-nerf but an intented nerf to casters (and necros) in general.
Sat 7 Dec 2019 2:22 AM by Strikejk
Uthred wrote:
Wed 4 Dec 2019 7:39 AM
Please dont insult and flame each other. That doesnt make any argument any better.

The intention of the HP buff was pretty clear. Atleast we stated it multiple times: To buff melees a little vs casters. As the necro is more a caster than a melee, it is not a shadow-nerf but an intented nerf to casters (and necros) in general.

So where is the nerf to all other casters in the game then? They all got their fair share of HP+
Way to go to only nerf the Necromancer, like any stats out there remotely back that decision up, I hardly doubt it.
It's funny that everytime someone brings bias into the discussion you all defend yourself with "devs and gm's can't be biased and won't be biased" which is a nice thing to say, yet your actions speak a different tone and have been since the server exist.

I would do a summary of all nerfs across all realms where albion is the clear "winner" but who am I kidding it will be ignored (just like this thread was for months).
Man is it nice to have no relics every day.
Man is it nice to have no population past 10pm GMT.
Only in Albion.

Good thing this OP realm gets beaten down at every patch possible /s, if it wasn't for their top guild the realm would have been dead for half a year now.
Would be funny when they stop playing on Albion and then you have to slowly rebuff them again and again and again and again till they finally have players back that are able to kill stuff and not be permanently dominated in rvr.

Funfact: The only reason I'm strictly against the suggested proc change is that it is a shadow-nerf against Albion/Necromancers again cause they can't use procs. (Hint: How about fixing that? Yes I know what you think, it's obviously a joke to ask for an albion buff.)

Edit: Before someone claims I'm a salty dickhead that gives no constructive feedback on how to fix the issue, well here it is:

First step is to admit that you folks over there completely forgot that the necro works differently and has almost no real con when you made the change. This was evident when I asked about how the necro was being handled on patchday and neither the GM's nor Devs had a clue about it. With that drop the act of it being a justified, special nerf that was planned all along, seriously, nobody believes that joke anyway so let's no waste anymore time on this cover-up story to hide that mistake. Next step is to fix the necromancer, look how much more HP the other casters got out of the buff and give the necro the same by raising its base HP accordingly (or whatever works best to accomplish this). And last but not least explain to the public about the mistake and that the necromancer has been properly fixed now.

With that I'm out, peace.
Sat 7 Dec 2019 3:52 AM by gotwqqd
Strikejk wrote:
Sat 7 Dec 2019 2:22 AM
Uthred wrote:
Wed 4 Dec 2019 7:39 AM
Please dont insult and flame each other. That doesnt make any argument any better.

The intention of the HP buff was pretty clear. Atleast we stated it multiple times: To buff melees a little vs casters. As the necro is more a caster than a melee, it is not a shadow-nerf but an intented nerf to casters (and necros) in general.

So where is the nerf to all other casters in the game then? They all got their fair share of HP+
Way to go to only nerf the Necromancer, like any stats out there remotely back that decision up, I hardly doubt it.
It's funny that everytime someone brings bias into the discussion you all defend yourself with "devs and gm's can't be biased and won't be biased" which is a nice thing to say, yet your actions speak a different tone and have been since the server exist.

I would do a summary of all nerfs across all realms where albion is the clear "winner" but who am I kidding it will be ignored (just like this thread was for months).
Man is it nice to have no relics every day.
Man is it nice to have no population past 10pm GMT.
Only in Albion.

Good thing this OP realm gets beaten down at every patch possible /s, if it wasn't for their top guild the realm would have been dead for half a year now.
Would be funny when they stop playing on Albion and then you have to slowly rebuff them again and again and again and again till they finally have players back that are able to kill stuff and not be permanently dominated in rvr.

Funfact: The only reason I'm strictly against the suggested proc change is that it is a shadow-nerf against Albion/Necromancers again cause they can't use procs. (Hint: How about fixing that? Yes I know what you think, it's obviously a joke to ask for an albion buff.)

Edit: Before someone claims I'm a salty dickhead that gives no constructive feedback on how to fix the issue, well here it is:

First step is to admit that you folks over there completely forgot that the necro works differently and has almost no real con when you made the change. This was evident when I asked about how the necro was being handled on patchday and neither the GM's nor Devs had a clue about it. With that drop the act of it being a justified, special nerf that was planned all along, seriously, nobody believes that joke anyway so let's no waste anymore time on this cover-up story to hide that mistake. Next step is to fix the necromancer, look how much more HP the other casters got out of the buff and give the necro the same by raising its base HP accordingly (or whatever works best to accomplish this). And last but not least explain to the public about the mistake and that the necromancer has been properly fixed now.

With that I'm out, peace.
Takin’ your ball and going home, huh?
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