Need a clarification about the new HP buff - (potentially a necro nerf?)

#1
Hi,
I need a clarification about how the new HP buff from the most recent patch is actually done.
Is it a flat HP increase for everyone?
Or is it a HP increase by increasing the modifier of con to hp?

If it is the increase of the con to hp modifier, does this only affect the 75 con the necro pet gets from items?
Because if this is this is the case, which seems most likely from the thread about future patches this is a substantial nerf to necros that needs to be addressed.

The reason for this is as follows:
All regular classes have a reasonable small flat amount of base HP, which then gets increased by their base con, their con increase from level ups, their con from items, hits from items and RA's.
The necro pet however starts with a very high flat amount of base HP (on the last level), this is because it only gets the 75 con from items on top of that. So it does not get the base con or the con from level increase like regular classes.
This means that the con to hp modifier for the necro pet only affects 75 con, instead of regular classes where it affects ~180 con, so increasing the modifier grants all other classes a much higher HP boost than the necro gets for his necro pet.

Example (with some incorrect example numbers but it gets the point across):
Before the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 3 )) = 600+((180)*3) = 1140 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 3 ) = 1000+(75*3) = 1225 Hitpoints
After the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 4 )) = 600+((180)*4) = 1320 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 4 ) = 1000+(75*4) = 1300 Hitpoints

As you can see in the example the necro would benefit much less from the change due to the circumstances that Mythic back in the days was lazy enough to just give the necro pet a high flat amount of HP to compensate for the non-existent con regular classes get. While this is normally not an issue, the high flat amount of HP it got was basically derived from the con the other classes get and thus balanced. However this balance is in shambles if you just increase the con modifier without considering the necro pet. The necro pet flat amount of HP needs to be adjusted to give it an equal increase as the other classes get.

Basically, if a caster now has 300 HP more, the necro pet also should have 300 HP more and not 150 because of a design flaw from 20 years ago.

Thanks.

Edit: With the latest patch we also got NPC damage increase and while we are at the necro topic I would like to know if that applies to the necro aswell. Furthermore I would like to add that if now all PvE mobs do more damage and all classes got more HP to counterbalance that, with the exception of the necro, this is even more of a nerf to the necro which now affects both RvR and PvE. This needs to be addressed, thanks for reading.
Last edited by Strikejk on Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:05 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Re: Clarification on new HP buff and potential necro nerf

#2
Man with all due respect I haven't seen any alb grp running a necro so far. Necro are strong pve farming class and they will continue to be.

If you plan to run solo to kill tanks you'll prolly need 1 more cast to get the rps you need to be more efficient in pve.

Unless you plan to run a 8 man setup with necro and Theurgs to counter the full mongo Mid setup, in that case I'm with you.
Killaloth - BM very sexy

VORTI/DEIRA: Killaloth - Bluntmaster OFF

Past Shards:
Uthgard 1 - Hlin - Sham
Thidranki Classic: Troya - NS ; Troya - Healer

Re: Clarification on new HP buff and potential necro nerf

#3
@Killaloth the meta of the game drives a lot into mid mongo setups. More HP, celerity and det9 on almost all classes expect healer/shaman.

On an Alb setup its rather difficult to break their speed in 75% of all inc in 8vs8 you have the tanks constantly inside your caster/supporter setup. One even two peelers cant control 2 savages who two hit a caster ( even with pd7+) overtime.. . and now you even can't burst em down with a qc for some time to run.

I see that many Albs will do the the tank setup - with af debuffing necro. It will a butthurt to get used after 12 years of playing caster setup but we will see.

I don't play hib in this meta, but i think you will get into same problems on the caster heavy ench +2/+3 dd setup.

When the changes with procs really go live in the announced form i think i will quit this server.

Re: Clarification on new HP buff and potential necro nerf

#4
Herf wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:56 am
@Killaloth the meta of the game drives a lot into mid mongo setups. More HP, celerity and det9 on almost all classes expect healer/shaman.

On an Alb setup its rather difficult to break their speed in 75% of all inc in 8vs8 you have the tanks constantly inside your caster/supporter setup. One even two peelers cant control 2 savages who two hit a caster ( even with pd7+) overtime.. . and now you even can't burst em down with a qc for some time to run.

I see that many Albs will do the the tank setup - with af debuffing necro. It will a butthurt to get used after 12 years of playing caster setup but we will see.

I don't play hib in this meta, but i think you will get into same problems on the caster heavy ench +2/+3 dd setup.

When the changes with procs really go live in the announced form i think i will quit this server.
Yes on Alb a tank setup with necro debuff and 2 theurgs should work. Nesretnik was suggesting it while chatting with him, I think it can work.

The main function of a necro would be to AF debuff while following the assist train, do you see it being the first target? Do they need more hps?

I have no idea about how this will affect an Hib caster grp, let's see. Most decent players already have a high rr caster I guess we will just have to kite and kite more while hopefully not finishing a mana bar, HoL and mana barrels during an inc, which I see it happening but let's see.

Btw this is all paper daoc, in reality better grps will continue to win due to better play and I like to take Dark Dawn as an example when they rerolled to low RR toons on Alb and continued to kick high RR asses.
Killaloth - BM very sexy

VORTI/DEIRA: Killaloth - Bluntmaster OFF

Past Shards:
Uthgard 1 - Hlin - Sham
Thidranki Classic: Troya - NS ; Troya - Healer

Re: Need a clarification about the new HP buff - (potentially a necro nerf?)

#5
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 3 )) = 600+((180)*3) = 1140 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 3 ) = 1000+(75*3) = 1225 Hitpoints
After the patch:
Regular class: 600 base HP + (( 60 base con + 45 con from level ups + 75 con from items ) * hp to con modifier of 4 )) = 600+((180)*4) = 1320 Hitpoints.
Necromancer: 1000 base HP + ( 75 con from items * hp to con modifier of 4 ) = 1000+(75*4) = 1300 Hitpoints

..................

So you were ahead 85hp before and now that your 20hp down its a "substantial" nerf? Looks like a balance to me

Re: Need a clarification about the new HP buff - (potentially a necro nerf?)

#9
easytoremember wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:53 am
Sepplord wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:38 am
easytoremember wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:36 am

It's a blue mob
tell that to melees
There exist specs other than straight deathsight, as trash as they may be
So balancing to classes should alway take the worst possible specc as powerlevel to base changes on?
Or should it take the best speccs powerlevel as basis?

Imo clearly the best one...otherwise Bards really need a huge buff. 46blades/47blunt is really not competitive at all currently. Please buff HP until that specc is viable. :roll:

Re: Need a clarification about the new HP buff - (potentially a necro nerf?)

#10
Sepplord wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:09 am
easytoremember wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:53 am
Sepplord wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:38 am


tell that to melees
There exist specs other than straight deathsight, as trash as they may be
So balancing to classes should alway take the worst possible specc as powerlevel to base changes on?
Or should it take the best speccs powerlevel as basis?

Imo clearly the best one...otherwise Bards really need a huge buff. 46blades/47blunt is really not competitive at all currently. Please buff HP until that specc is viable. :roll:
No matter how you spec a bard he doesn't melt