Stealthers weaponskill debuff

Started 2 Oct 2019
by Killaloth
in RvR
Hi and welcome to my 1st rant thread.

The recently introduced weaponskill debuff is too OP. (QQ)

A badly played rr5 shadowblade (monosodium) should not kill an almost rr11 blades blademaster. (nono)

If you PA > get numbed > purge numb you should just die. (Coz you did a dumb thing purging numb, innit?)

It turns instead that I you don't survive long enough to even slam again a bad player and finish the job. (gg Viper 5)

A slash BM needs purge constanlty up AND either triple wield or damage add charge up to be able to compete. Otherwise even IP3 is barely enough to survive. (whaaaaat?)

This is too OP imho and should be readjusted at least a bit. (say it loud bro)

Now enjoy the mental gymnastics of stealthers saying it's all normal that PAing, purging the wrong shield style and anytiming down a 10l8 slash bm is normal. (/popcorns)

I would appreciate a meaningful feedback from a stealther that plays a tank and recognises at least a little of what I just wrote.

Thank you for reading my rant, have a nice day.
Wed 2 Oct 2019 4:32 PM by kiectred
I hate to say it but this clearly isn't really about the weaponskill debuff. The fact that he weaponskill debuffed you had no bearing on the fact that you couldn't survive to slam him. Takes some mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion, imo.

The question I have is how did you die so quickly with IP3 and presumably heal pot and Legion charge (yes I know disease reduces the effectiveness of these last 2). Pretty sure I could stand there and not even attack back and survive longer than numb's immunity timer and I have less hp and defensive capabilities than a BM I imagine.
Wed 2 Oct 2019 4:50 PM by Zouz
Wait for him to style with something else that garrote, strafe & land sidesnare. Kite during immunity => GG
Wed 2 Oct 2019 5:34 PM by Killaloth
Zouz wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 4:50 PM
Wait for him to style with something else that garrote, strafe & land sidesnare. Kite during immunity => GG

Kiting with poisons that hurt like a cave shamy make no sense I'm afraid.

I don't use heart of legio on sneaks as I'm diseased. I could use it in rapid sequence after purge but I'm talking about purge down. Triple wield or damage add should let you outdamage a r5 sb but because of a combination of weaponskill debuff and high viper you just don't.

Result: a bad rr5 SB can hit harder than a diseased, debuffed r10 slash bm... too much.

You either burn your ras or you die.

I'm ""happy"" to die vs some luck if I have purge down but an almost guaranteed death if you don't burn everything else other than purge it's too much.
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:00 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 5:34 PM
You either burn your ras or you die.


I hate stealthers more than anyone on this server, but come on. If you're fighting someone that has invested literally 80% of the RSP into a single passive which effects only one type of their damage and you refuse to Purge it, you get what you deserve.
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:03 PM by Freedomcall
I'm afraid that weaponskill debuff change has nothing to do with you lasting longer.
Your dps got lowered, not your hp. Nor his dps got buffed due to change.
You would've been dead at the same speed before the update.

And if rr5 ssin had viper 5 already, even 5L9 has only 2 points left after training purge2 and vanish1. That litterally means he can purge once 15 minutes(or he gave up vanish and put purge3).
So this shows that he has done unlikely higher dps than other normally specced rr5 SB sacrificing something else.
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:44 PM by Killaloth
Freedomcall wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:03 PM
Your dps got lowered, not your hp. Nor his dps got buffed due to change.

Yep I'm with you on this.

Freedomcall wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:03 PM
You would've been dead at the same speed before the update.

No I disagree on this, I would have killed the SB before being killed. Maybe I would have died with viper anyway maybe not.

My dps got lowered due to weaponskill debuff on top of exisiting poisons.

The dps of a rr10 bm is so much weakened by the above combination that it makes less damage than a rr5 SB. Doesn't it sound a bit too much to you if the bm happens to have purge down?
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:55 PM by Cadebrennus
Unless they're a MH Crush user all Hib meleers have to choose between a Legion Heal OR a Damage Add charge. Alb has an OFFHAND usable Damage Add proc weapon (trust me, it's incredible and my Merc loves it) which frees them up to use Legion or whatever charge they want in combat. So no, not even, not fair between the realms. I called this out in the thread I started about DA weapons.

The Weaponskill debuff poison hits tanks so hard that I called it out during beta, but no one wanted to "piss off the Stealther community". SBs were hitting me harder than I could hit them while playing a WS debuffed Merc.

Stealthers were originally designed to take out Casters. It's why Archers have Critshot + longer range. It's why Assassins have CS and poisons. However, the Caster players whined until lots of anti-stealther measures were put into place (/face, BT, QC, etc.). Then Stealthers whined that they couldn't kill anything. Then they were buffed to the point of being able to 1v1 tanks. And here we are.
Wed 2 Oct 2019 10:05 PM by gruenesschaf
Assuming you're using a str weapon you'd have lost only slighly less dps with the original str/con debuff. This is not the live value ws debuff. While the update fixed it to actually do something, the debuffed value is pretty much comparable to the str debuff except that it works equally well on dex or str + dex weapons.
Wed 2 Oct 2019 11:30 PM by Killaloth
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 10:05 PM
Assuming you're using a str weapon you'd have lost only slighly less dps with the original str/con debuff. This is not the live value ws debuff. While the update fixed it to actually do something, the debuffed value is pretty much comparable to the str debuff except that it works equally well on dex or str + dex weapons.

I don't know what to say. Weaponskill the berserker just got owned 1vs1 as he had no purge and teddy bear on. Easily beaten 1vs1 by an infi as he can't even slam.

I know zerks and BMs are not solo classes and there is probably a reason why the highest rank BM on the server runs with a 6l champion when he wants to solo (and he shares my same point of view).

You guys can close this thread. I just don't want anyone to make the mistake of rolling anything other than a thane or champion as a solo visible as you will prolly quit playing and we need players on this server.

I should be ok until the average stealther is rr9 then I'll use the BM for group/smallman only I guess
Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:16 AM by Frigzy
Viper 5 is a ridiculous RA. I solo'd quite a bit on BM on Uth back in the day and was able to easily outburst stealthers who used it. However, they would more often than not kill me with their poison afterwards.

Combine that with a severe hit to your DPS and you don't stand a chance without purge.

So yep, you gotta spec Purge 3+ to solo effectively if you're serious about it.

That brings us back to (N)NF RAs. I dislike both the viper nonsense and the mandatoriness of purge to be effective. Oh well, guess there's nothing but suck it up or quit.
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:17 AM by chois
Even with purge 5 if it s not a dumb sneak he ll re apply the enervating
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:46 AM by Freedomcall
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:44 PM
Freedomcall wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:03 PM
Your dps got lowered, not your hp. Nor his dps got buffed due to change.

Yep I'm with you on this.

Freedomcall wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:03 PM
You would've been dead at the same speed before the update.

No I disagree on this, I would have killed the SB before being killed. Maybe I would have died with viper anyway maybe not.

My dps got lowered due to weaponskill debuff on top of exisiting poisons.

The dps of a rr10 bm is so much weakened by the above combination that it makes less damage than a rr5 SB. Doesn't it sound a bit too much to you if the bm happens to have purge down?


Well, I don't know how your fight went. I just stated according your statement.


Killaloth wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 4:03 PM
If you PA > get numbed > purge numb you should just die. (Coz you did a dumb thing purging numb, innit?)

It turns instead that I you don't survive long enough to even slam again a bad player and finish the job. (gg Viper 5)

I said you would've been dead at the same speed, bc you wrote you didn't survive long enough to even slam after numb immunity(which is 12 sec).
If that was the problem, you should've rant over viper5 not weaponskill debuff.
Or if you think you would've killed him even before the end of numb immunity, your "He's a bad player cuz he purged numb" statement is false, bc even that 2 sec stun is so crucial for such a quickie fight.
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:55 AM by Cadebrennus
chois wrote:
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:17 AM
Even with purge 5 if it s not a dumb sneak he ll re apply the enervating

Exactly. Assassins are the only class in game that doesn't have to deal with immunity timers. If they did have to deal with immunity timers like everyone else THEN they would be closer to being balanced.
Thu 3 Oct 2019 11:18 AM by Freedomcall
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:55 AM
chois wrote:
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:17 AM
Even with purge 5 if it s not a dumb sneak he ll re apply the enervating

Exactly. Assassins are the only class in game that doesn't have to deal with immunity timers. If they did have to deal with immunity timers like everyone else THEN they would be closer to being balanced.

Nah, not true.
1. s/c debuff doesn't have immunity timer no matter which class casts. Does sorc's s/c, d/q debuff give immunity timer? no.
2. Same with disease.
3. Lifebane on Phoenix works something similar to an immunity timer, cuz you lose a tick if you reapply it before every tick is done.
Every ssin has to calculate 20 seconds not to make a mistake, just like tanks calculate 12 secs before landing slam after numb.
Thu 3 Oct 2019 3:26 PM by Taniquetil
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:55 AM
chois wrote:
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:17 AM
Even with purge 5 if it s not a dumb sneak he ll re apply the enervating

Exactly. Assassins are the only class in game that doesn't have to deal with immunity timers. If they did have to deal with immunity timers like everyone else THEN they would be closer to being balanced.

Champion debuffs. No immunity.
All casters resist debuffs. No immunity.
All reaver/thane debuffs. No immunity.
All caster insta debuffs. No immunity.
Disease from all sources. No immunity.
Snares from weapon styles. No immunity.
Haste debuffs of any kind. No immunity.
Dot of any kind. No immunity.

I see a theme.

If youre purging debuffs look at your playstyle. Dont ask for the class to be nerfed.




And separately.
I struggle to see how a sin could take a light tank down in under 10 sec if played right, especially as you have enough rank to have v good parry and block chance.

Against a solo merc/reaver/skald fights can take up to a minute sometimes.

If a light tank at 2000hp at a guess rounded for just generalisation of maths... (debuffed, and or PA’d say 1600. Works out about the same as the two dont stack) + 250 for heal pots, or more if you heal after...dies in 10 sec. thats 1850 dmg in 10 sec. 185dps. Counting no parries blocks evades or procs. Also in that 10 sec viper ticked twice for 200dmg total, maybe 300. So the other 1500dmg in that timeframe (negating PA as most is lost to the condebuff) is the real concern. The wscon debuff and the dot arent the issue you faced there.

I struggle to buy it. Sorry. Especially as ive seen you gobble up stealth duos quite easily Killa. Plus I rarely see Mono solo and when I do he’s free rp even if he does PA...and I’m squishier than you. Post logs or some footage and it’d be easier to help analyse and discuss.
Thu 3 Oct 2019 4:15 PM by jelzinga_EU
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 4:03 PM
Hi and welcome to my 1st rant thread.

The recently introduced weaponskill debuff is too OP. (QQ)

A badly played rr5 shadowblade (monosodium) should not kill an almost rr11 blades blademaster. (nono)

If you PA > get numbed > purge numb you should just die. (Coz you did a dumb thing purging numb, innit?)

It turns instead that I you don't survive long enough to even slam again a bad player and finish the job. (gg Viper 5)

A slash BM needs purge constanlty up AND either triple wield or damage add charge up to be able to compete. Otherwise even IP3 is barely enough to survive. (whaaaaat?)

This is too OP imho and should be readjusted at least a bit. (say it loud bro)

Now enjoy the mental gymnastics of stealthers saying it's all normal that PAing, purging the wrong shield style and anytiming down a 10l8 slash bm is normal. (/popcorns)

I would appreciate a meaningful feedback from a stealther that plays a tank and recognises at least a little of what I just wrote.

Thank you for reading my rant, have a nice day.

I haven't played for a bit on my Shadowblade, but there is 1 thing I do not understand in your story:

If you do not survive long enough to Slam after Numb, you die in <12 seconds of whatever the immunity on Numb is currently. That means there have been at max 3 ticks of Viper V. So it seems unlikely Viper V is the problem here.

Did you record the fight so I can provide more meaningful feedback ?
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:41 AM by Killaloth
Bibbidibobbidi was also there and is actually part of the story. Bibbidi your name has no credibility however if you read the forum you can confirm.

He also killed me on DC bridge in the exact same sequence: he purged numb, put all poisons on me and by the time I was trying to land my slam I was dead as he evaded once. So I died in 12 or 13 seconds.

I did not mention him in my first post as he is rr9, if I have all down is more reasonable.

1 minute later I rebuff and go out on DC bridge and same thing happens, this time with a rr5 though. I managed to land the slam last second on him but I died of dots. Bibbidi was there and I he /clapped the guy or something

I'm blaming weaponskill debuff but it's obviously a combination of all poisons that does the trick.

Maybe viper could do the same amount of damage but spread out on 2 more ticks?

My point here is that if purge is down I have to use both triple wield and damage add charge. If these happen to be both down also IP3 will NOT save me vs a 7l+ sneak as I would be doing 70 damage mainhand while being burned by viper.

Also on Hib you have:

no damage add weapons - (except blunt that no one uses).
no casted add damage - easily available on other realms. Mid meta is tank and they can have celerity + damage add. Hib meta is casters, chanters could have it on the mana line, no harms done to rvr balance.
no casted armor factor buff - easily available on other realms. Verdant animists are non existent as the line is not even used to farm darkspire. Meh.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 4:01 AM by easytoremember
Are you being sniped by a hunter each fight?
Fri 4 Oct 2019 6:11 AM by Lillebror
So you have to pop stuff to kill a rr5 Assassin that get the jump?
Sounds like he use 30 points alone on viper to increase his chances.

He probably do not jump you without purge, I wouldn't. Why should you now have to use purge or other tools up to win.
They invest about 552 points in stealth, its not equal to they should be free rps.

From an Assassin point of view I am fed up with stealth openers that just tickle tanks balls.
Heck if you coastguard you see enough tank/hybrids standing still waiting for free rps to jump them.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:02 AM by Cadebrennus
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:41 AM
Bibbidibobbidi was also there and is actually part of the story. Bibbidi your name has no credibility however if you read the forum you can confirm.

He also killed me on DC bridge in the exact same sequence: he purged numb, put all poisons on me and by the time I was trying to land my slam I was dead as he evaded once. So I died in 12 or 13 seconds.

I did not mention him in my first post as he is rr9, if I have all down is more reasonable.

1 minute later I rebuff and go out on DC bridge and same thing happens, this time with a rr5 though. I managed to land the slam last second on him but I died of dots. Bibbidi was there and I he /clapped the guy or something

I'm blaming weaponskill debuff but it's obviously a combination of all poisons that does the trick.

Maybe viper could do the same amount of damage but spread out on 2 more ticks?

My point here is that if purge is down I have to use both triple wield and damage add charge. If these happen to be both down also IP3 will NOT save me vs a 7l+ sneak as I would be doing 70 damage mainhand while being burned by viper.

Also on Hib you have:

no damage add weapons - (except blunt that no one uses).
no casted add damage - easily available on other realms. Mid meta is tank and they can have celerity + damage add. Hib meta is casters, chanters could have it on the mana line, no harms done to rvr balance.
no casted armor factor buff - easily available on other realms. Verdant animists are non existent as the line is not even used to farm darkspire. Meh.

Killaloth is spot on here. It's also a combination of things that lead to weaker Hib melee, even in a group. For example, you always have to make a choice each fight between using a Damage Add or Legion heal. That automatically puts you at approximately a 200 hp disadvantage.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:47 AM by kiectred
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:41 AM
I'm blaming weaponskill debuff but it's obviously a combination of all poisons that does the trick.

Maybe viper could do the same amount of damage but spread out on 2 more ticks?

My point here is that if purge is down I have to use both triple wield and damage add charge. If these happen to be both down also IP3 will NOT save me vs a 7l+ sneak as I would be doing 70 damage mainhand while being burned by viper.

Others have raised a good point I didn't even consider: it can't be viper either because in less than 12 seconds it wouldn't have ticked for enough damage. It can't be the weaponskill debuff because this doesn't affect your ability to take damage. You blame the combination of all poisons... what do you mean? Which other ones would influence his ability to kill you in under 12 seconds?
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:15 AM by Lillebror
jelzinga_EU wrote:
Thu 3 Oct 2019 4:15 PM
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 4:03 PM
Hi and welcome to my 1st rant thread.

The recently introduced weaponskill debuff is too OP. (QQ)

A badly played rr5 shadowblade (monosodium) should not kill an almost rr11 blades blademaster. (nono)

If you PA > get numbed > purge numb you should just die. (Coz you did a dumb thing purging numb, innit?)

It turns instead that I you don't survive long enough to even slam again a bad player and finish the job. (gg Viper 5)

A slash BM needs purge constanlty up AND either triple wield or damage add charge up to be able to compete. Otherwise even IP3 is barely enough to survive. (whaaaaat?)

This is too OP imho and should be readjusted at least a bit. (say it loud bro)

Now enjoy the mental gymnastics of stealthers saying it's all normal that PAing, purging the wrong shield style and anytiming down a 10l8 slash bm is normal. (/popcorns)

I would appreciate a meaningful feedback from a stealther that plays a tank and recognises at least a little of what I just wrote.

Thank you for reading my rant, have a nice day.

I haven't played for a bit on my Shadowblade, but there is 1 thing I do not understand in your story:

If you do not survive long enough to Slam after Numb, you die in <12 seconds of whatever the immunity on Numb is currently. That means there have been at max 3 ticks of Viper V. So it seems unlikely Viper V is the problem here.

Did you record the fight so I can provide more meaningful feedback ?

For his defense, if he eat a full pa chain (tickle his balls, and should never happend, 100% not at a bridge) thats close to 3 viper ticks, then 12sec of numb again 3 ticks, well lets say 5 ticks total if no purge
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:18 AM by Lillebror
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:02 AM
Killaloth is spot on here. It's also a combination of things that lead to weaker Hib melee, even in a group. For example, you always have to make a choice each fight between using a Damage Add or Legion heal. That automatically puts you at approximately a 200 hp disadvantage.

Doesnt all realms have to make that call?
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:21 AM by Taniquetil
Again plz post some logs or record some fights. My fights vs bibb last about 22” with us both going hell for leather. You can see i pull my insta dd twice in the fight, thats on a 20” timer. I’d say if u know you’re trying to outlast, get that shield out and play defensive. And get a haste debuff style off on him too. If you’re blade you have a 30-34% or whatever it is available to you depending on spec

First 2 fights side by side here vs bibb for duration, if he takes 22 sec vs me, im surprised vs you whol should have more hp, better dmg absorption, better defenses that he kills you quicker, last 2-3 fights in the film are also vs light and heavy tanks that last upwards of 1 min. Try playing more defensive to start, classes that can outlast me early on cause problems even with only 1h dps.

https://youtu.be/zd8I2hJswWU

Dmg add vs legion is a choice every player has to make. Utterly irrelevant point.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 11:06 AM by gotwqqd
Poisons
Often I’ll simply be attacked and the assassin immediately starts running away to let them finish their job
Fri 4 Oct 2019 11:39 AM by Killaloth
kiectred wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:47 AM
Others have raised a good point I didn't even consider: it can't be viper either because in less than 12 seconds it wouldn't have ticked for enough damage. It can't be the weaponskill debuff because this doesn't affect your ability to take damage. You blame the combination of all poisons... what do you mean? Which other ones would influence his ability to kill you in under 12 seconds?


A combination means... a combination!
It's not viper alone that kills me. It's not WS debuff alone that lowers my damage. It's not disease alone that.. etc etc. It's a combination. We don't need to list the poisons that can be applied on a weapon on this thread right?


Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:15 AM
For his defense, if he eat a full pa chain (tickle his balls, and should never happend, 100% not at a bridge) thats close to 3 viper ticks, then 12sec of numb again 3 ticks, well lets say 5 ticks total if no purge


Never. I accept criticism on other things but not on reaction time. There has been one occasion where I got stunned with Creeping Death without first attempting a slam after PA, I was on the phone.

From now on I will pay 5 Hib plats to any sneak that can prove I got PA and CD without reacting first. They say put your money where your mouth is.


Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:18 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:02 AM
Killaloth is spot on here. It's also a combination of things that lead to weaker Hib melee, even in a group. For example, you always have to make a choice each fight between using a Damage Add or Legion heal. That automatically puts you at approximately a 200 hp disadvantage.

Doesnt all realms have to make that call?


Not if you have the DA proc on your weapon. In that case you can use STR/CON debuff if purge is down or purge>Legio>Heal barrel if purge is up.


Taniquetil wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:21 AM
Again plz post some logs or record some fights. My fights vs bibb last about 22” with us both going hell for leather. You can see i pull my insta dd twice in the fight, thats on a 20” timer. I’d say if u know you’re trying to outlast, get that shield out and play defensive. And get a haste debuff style off on him too. If you’re blade you have a 30-34% or whatever it is available to you depending on spec

First 2 fights side by side here vs bibb for duration, if he takes 22 sec vs me, im surprised vs you whol should have more hp, better dmg absorption, better defenses that he kills you quicker, last 2-3 fights in the film are also vs light and heavy tanks that last upwards of 1 min. Try playing more defensive to start, classes that can outlast me early on cause problems even with only 1h dps.

https://youtu.be/zd8I2hJswWU

Dmg add vs legion is a choice every player has to make. Utterly irrelevant point.


1) Nice video
2) I have no log but Bibbidi can confirm, he was there on both occasions.
3) In the 1st two fights you did not get PAed, I did. You will also find very hard to land a 2 style chain when you are nerfed to death.
4) If you have damage add on your weapon you can go for str/con debuff, I think you know it exists maybe you just don't use it.

You also proved another point. A luri lasts longer than a slash celt bm vs the same opponent because of how strong is the combination of poisons. You nerfed each other hard. Also in those fights you had, in order:

Left fight vs bibbidi: abla proc, evade, heal proc, abla proc, purge>legio.
Right fight: dex/qui debuff proc on first style, heal proc, abla proc, purge>legio, evade.

I had 0 procs and 0 evade coz of how badly I was nerfed. So I lasted 12/13 secs. It doesn't happen often but it should never happen.

Also, last fights in the video are vs all shield wearer, yes they last longer.


"Try playing more defensive to start, classes that can outlast me early on cause problems even with only 1h dps."

Ahh here we are!

I should go on bridges wearing a shield while all sneaks and leechers gets closer to add my 1 minute shield fight because I get outdamaged in a 13 seconds fight by a shadowblade? No thank you. There are very few ppl that respect 1vs1, I should be able to get my kill quick and run away.

That's where we are now, 10l8 BM should up his defences coz the offence is not strong enough - gg.
Yes I had no defensive RAs but I had MoP 8, MoArms 5, AugmQui 4. Not enough damage - gg.

There are few people ranting about this simply because apart from champions you can count non-coastguarding visible soloers on an amputated hand, especially on hib.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:15 PM by kiectred
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 11:39 AM
kiectred wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:47 AM
Others have raised a good point I didn't even consider: it can't be viper either because in less than 12 seconds it wouldn't have ticked for enough damage. It can't be the weaponskill debuff because this doesn't affect your ability to take damage. You blame the combination of all poisons... what do you mean? Which other ones would influence his ability to kill you in under 12 seconds?


A combination means... a combination!
It's not viper alone that kills me. It's not WS debuff alone that lowers my damage. It's not disease alone that.. etc etc. It's a combination. We don't need to list the poisons that can be applied on a weapon on this thread right?


"Try playing more defensive to start, classes that can outlast me early on cause problems even with only 1h dps."

Ahh here we are!

I should go on bridges wearing a shield while all sneaks and leechers gets closer to add my 1 minute shield fight because I get outdamaged in a 13 seconds fight by a shadowblade? No thank you. There are very few ppl that respect 1vs1, I should be able to get my kill quick and run away.

That's where we are now, 10l8 BM should up his defences coz the offence is not strong enough - gg.

There are few people ranting about this simply because apart from champions you can count non-coastguarding visible soloers on an amputated hand, especially on hib.

I'm asking you exactly which other poison should cause you to die in under 12 seconds, not for a full list. I thought that was obvious but I guess you want to feign ignorance. Disease will influence survival only minimally, snare won't do that at all, weaponskill debuff doesn't do it at all. DoT does, con-debuff a bit (something about it happening with PA negating the full effect of both?) and what else?

But now you say you didn't have your shield out, which clarifies some details. I'm not sure why you'd put it away in favor of an offhand before you slam though, knowing he purged numb. To me it seems better to go defensive till the slam, then it's an automatic win. I realize you want to out dps him but why be so impatient when you'll have a free 9 seconds of positionals to unleash? And don't claim it's because of adding because the whole premise of this is that you wanted to be able to survive long enough to slam but couldn't because you died too quickly. If you're so worried about adding that you can't be defensive until a slam, then why plan for a slam in the first place. I'm just imagining if I fell for numb-purge against a tank, I'm pretty sure most will keep their shield up, slam, then pull out a 2hander and smash.

Anyhow that's a bit more off-topic for my concerns.... even without shield I can't fathom how you die in under 12 seconds, but it doesn't matter because it has nothing to do with the weaponskill debuff the post was made for.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:39 PM by Cadebrennus
Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:18 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:02 AM
Killaloth is spot on here. It's also a combination of things that lead to weaker Hib melee, even in a group. For example, you always have to make a choice each fight between using a Damage Add or Legion heal. That automatically puts you at approximately a 200 hp disadvantage.

Doesnt all realms have to make that call?

Alb doesn't as far as I know. I can't remember for Stealthers but my Merc can have an offhand DA proc no problem.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:46 PM by Freedomcall
I'm surprised how many ppl still believe in defense penetration regarding weaponskill on phoenix.
It is very limited, and rather a myth. It is not like you evade tons of times and then you stop evading after weaponskill poison debuff.

I(6L9 SB then) once had fight against 10L1 slash Infil on Sep 17th.
When we were both weaponskill debuff+diseased, his evade rate against me was 25.89%.
Then I purged, and his evrade rate against me reduced to 25.10%.
0.79% difference by weaponskill difference doesn't mean much.

Yes, your dmg reduction by poison is meaningful, but defense penetration is not.
You've done 0 evade, just because BM has lower evade rate against ssins(it should be around 10-15%) and you had bad rng.
It has nothing to do with weaopnskill debuff change.


And you keep pointing us that you are 10L8.
HIgher RR can be helpful on duels, but it doesn't always guarantee easy wins.
I want to ask you.
What weapons do you carry? I'm pretty sure you bring dot, debuff, lifetap weapons at least, right?
What RAs did you train? I'm pretty sure you didn't train meaningless RAs such as determination, right? cuz that is just a waste of 22 points vs ssins.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:13 PM by Lillebror
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:39 PM
Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:18 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:02 AM
Killaloth is spot on here. It's also a combination of things that lead to weaker Hib melee, even in a group. For example, you always have to make a choice each fight between using a Damage Add or Legion heal. That automatically puts you at approximately a 200 hp disadvantage.

Doesnt all realms have to make that call?

Alb doesn't as far as I know. I can't remember for Stealthers but my Merc can have an offhand DA proc no problem.

Yes alb can have DA procs but you wanna wait for that proc? So you can have legion+heal after a purge or you wanna hit with DA up from second hit.
DA proc chance is what ? 10%??? aka Killaloth can go a whole fight with out. RGN is evil.

@Killaloth i know very well about S/C debuff charge, so far i have only d/q debuff on crossbow for my encounters vs 2h/shield users.

I favor DA over the charge debuffs most the time, due to purge. but then again if mine is out, i might as well debuff opponent if i have to eat a stun.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:14 PM by Killaloth
kiectred wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:15 PM
I'm asking you exactly which other poison should cause you to die in under 12 seconds, not for a full list. I thought that was obvious but I guess you want to feign ignorance. Disease will influence survival only minimally, snare won't do that at all, weaponskill debuff doesn't do it at all. DoT does, con-debuff a bit (something about it happening with PA negating the full effect of both?) and what else?

Disease and WS debuff will make you die more quickly:

1) It's harder to land even a 2 style chain for attack speed debuff, it can take more than one attempt = the attacker hits faster = more damage taken
2) the attack hits faster = faster switching of poisoned weapon = more damage taken
3) Most importantly: while you try to land styles your opponent lands reactionary styles on you = more damage taken due to higher grow rate

High viper dot, no need to comment. Con debuff, no need to comment.

Again, it's a combination of things.

kiectred wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:15 PM
I'm just imagining if I fell for numb-purge against a tank, I'm pretty sure most will keep their shield up, slam, then pull out a 2hander and smash.

Losing seconds before the kill on a bridge means you don't get rps at all if you get added. Ever seen the chickens running to leech your rps from 3000 loc away?

I'll never numb a stealther again as it's better to go slam straight away given the current state of things. But it would have not changed the result of the fight. Purged numb = purged slam, if you die of dots after you slam.

Better to outdamage the opponent and jump in the water asap. You should end up with less hps but more rps.

But have your purge down and be ready to use everything you have to have a 50% chance of victory.

IP2 instead of IP3? 80% chance to die. Way too much.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:23 PM by Taniquetil
So the thing I’m saying is causing you to die in 12 sec, which im still not sure i believe is more than 1 or 2 freak rng occurences given you said nothing procced and nothing blocked in 16 hits (8 main, 8 off, at 1.5 swing speed in 10 sec), with a 20% parry chance, again this number is likely low given your rank and assumes you didny pull your shield out once to try to increase your defences, I’d imagine you did, thats v unlikely/unlucky, but of course not impossible. This isnt because of his poisons, his poisons are stopping you killing him quicker...so you have to find a way around that.

The key thing to focus on to make you not die in 12 sec is reducing his dmg output... aka improving your defenses, disease only reduces your dmg output, it doesnt make you die faster, it makes him die slower, theyre different things.

Sounds like youre group specced rather than solo specced then for raw dps. Great in groups when supported by heals, less so for solo.

Try a different approach. Jackle does v well, lots of mercs do v well with the same tools as you (ignore dt/dw for now), you need to slow the dmg output, and its doable, it just might not fit your current ra spec but if your aim is to win rather than to be specced for the best dmg output then try exploring something else. Once merc i met...50 parry spec i guess, was absolutely bananas. Try something different. Try the 4 sec stun, probably gives you more of an edge and even a smart opponent has to make a decision to purge that or not, if you can (clue, you can) survive the 20 sec after that you can do it again or go for slam if they purge it. Numb is a nice trick, but not great once ppl figure it out.

I’m trying to provide you solutions to overcome it. Crying for nerf Before trying something else to overcome it and accepting that you may already have a solution available isnt a great approach

Bringing things like fight location/adders other factors in to a discussion for a nerf to something is also a moot point. That is your choice and playstyle, not something to balance around.

Pm me in game happy to help u try some diff specs/things out and test vs me.

Bottom line is im trying to show you that the wscon and viper arent the problem, unless you want assassins nerfed to the point that you can just anytime style them down and out dps them straight up. Because with no block or parry or evades and the fact that youre unhappy about losing that fight despite that much rng against you, is a direct translation of that 🤷‍♂️ 😞

Also wscon has a v minor effect on block/parry rates, and it doesnt slow swing speed.

What slows you is the haste debuff (2 parter, same as yours) so again, moot.

Hope this helps. Thnx on the vid
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:30 PM by kiectred
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:14 PM
kiectred wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:15 PM
I'm asking you exactly which other poison should cause you to die in under 12 seconds, not for a full list. I thought that was obvious but I guess you want to feign ignorance. Disease will influence survival only minimally, snare won't do that at all, weaponskill debuff doesn't do it at all. DoT does, con-debuff a bit (something about it happening with PA negating the full effect of both?) and what else?

Disease and WS debuff will make you die more quickly:

1) It's harder to land even a 2 style chain for attack speed debuff, it can take more than one attempt = the attacker hits faster = more damage taken
2) the attack hits faster = faster switching of poisoned weapon = more damage taken
3) Most importantly: while you try to land styles your opponent lands reactionary styles on you = more damage taken due to higher grow rate

High viper dot, no need to comment. Con debuff, no need to comment.

Again, it's a combination of things.

kiectred wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:15 PM
I'm just imagining if I fell for numb-purge against a tank, I'm pretty sure most will keep their shield up, slam, then pull out a 2hander and smash.

Losing seconds before the kill on a bridge means you don't get rps at all if you get added. Ever seen the chickens running to leech your rps from 3000 loc away?

I'll never numb a stealther again as it's better to go slam straight away given the current state of things. But it would have not changed the result of the fight. Purged numb = purged slam, if you die of dots after you slam.

Better to outdamage the opponent and jump in the water asap. You should end up with less hps but more rps.

But have your purge down and be ready to use everything you have to have a 50% chance of victory.

IP2 instead of IP3? 80% chance to die. Way too much.

I guess some of that makes sense. It seems you've moved the goalposts a bit, but whatever. Didn't realize you had an attack speed debuff on the second part of a chain. Still seems way too fast to die.

I'd still keep the shield up before the slam, but I get what you mean with a bridge scenario as you described. However, wanting a clean 1v1 on a bridge is wildly optimistic (although it appears you got it in this scenario). I have indeed seen people rush from afar to add, yourself included with your group, so this is no surprise. Honestly, if it's a high traffic area, I don't really consider it adding unless I or the person adding happens to see the fight from the very beginning. I had some ranger /rude me like crazy because he attacked a wizard I was in a duo with once. Like... fuck off, 2 albs on a bridge and you attack one and just assume I'm not gonna heal my groupmate? That's even further off-topic though.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:37 PM by Lillebror
Taniquetil wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:23 PM
What slows you is the haste debuff (2 parter, same as yours) so again, moot.


This is not total moot since the guy that manage this first get the upper hand. it spiral into getting higher dps first or stun.
Then again Killaloth says they never get a CD in. I personaly like to start with Flank on tanks so i get my snare+ combat haste off. As im crap at landing sidestyles while in combat.

While at discussing WS, i meet a few high rr NS that instant purge my WS debuff when they get jumped. Most the time i only have one more shot to land a ws debuff. as i run only 2 total.
They just bank on ppl not reapply or not notice?
WS>eating an evade purge?
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:53 PM by Killaloth
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:46 PM
And you keep pointing us that you are 10L8.
HIgher RR can be helpful on duels, but it doesn't always guarantee easy wins.
I want to ask you.
What weapons do you carry? I'm pretty sure you bring dot, debuff, lifetap weapons at least, right?
What RAs did you train? I'm pretty sure you didn't train meaningless RAs such as determination, right? cuz that is just a waste of 22 points vs ssins.

Mainhand shadow walker dex/qui debuff, offhand lifetap
Switch to mainhand DOT when shadow walker procs
Switch to mainhand lifetap when dot procs

Of courseI am det 9 spec. I am det9 mop8 moa5 qui4 and some random points here and there. Group spec to max damage while still keeping ip3 and purge3.

If you put in the bin det9 for high parry and even higher damage you would shred any assassin just by spamming anytime styles I guess.

If you run a full solo spec BM you better run a champ as no one will group you.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 2:07 PM by Sleepwell
Maybe i misunderstood your rant then?

You're ranting in the original post that you got railed by a badly played (solo?) assasin.

Your last post you're commenting that if you spec solo, you won't get groups.

Can you clear this up? Are you solo spec, or group spec? It does make a tremendous difference.

And you do have a choice. You can choose to do well vs solo, or you can choose to group spec and do better in a group envrionment or zerg. While there is some common ground among spec choices, some specific specs should have absolute advantages over the other. A previous poster pointed this out. Det is all but useless in your solo fight vs the SIN. That's a ton of wasted points.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 2:07 PM by Taniquetil
Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:37 PM
Taniquetil wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:23 PM
What slows you is the haste debuff (2 parter, same as yours) so again, moot.


This is not total moot since the guy that manage this first get the upper hand. it spiral into getting higher dps first or stun.
Then again Killaloth says they never get a CD in. I personaly like to start with Flank on tanks so i get my snare+ combat haste off. As im crap at landing sidestyles while in combat.

While at discussing WS, i meet a few high rr NS that instant purge my WS debuff when they get jumped. Most the time i only have one more shot to land a ws debuff. as i run only 2 total.
They just bank on ppl not reapply or not notice?
WS>eating an evade purge?

When both parties have access to it, it has no factor in a debate to nerf a wscon debuff, infact very little of this does in reality. Wscon reduces hp, dmg output and verrry slightly, defensive capabilities but only by a few percent. Making an argument that you swing slower because of a haste debuff therefore you need to nerf wscon debuff is moot.

Fair point?

Also if someone purges your debuffs at the start of a fightget them back on quickly and laugh your way to the rp bank. Thats terrible play.


Long story short, up your defences slightly and you’ll last long enough to beat a sb who gets PA off on you even when you have no active RA’s up, that seems quite good really. Realistically you only needed to survive until your slam could hit him Killa, then you’da won. And with your shield out your defenses are better than an sb’s even when youre debuffed, so it gives you the edge to get the 2 part haste debuff off as opposed to him. That’s the gameplan you had in mind, so you know the fight needed to last that duration anyway, so make a change to increase your chances of getting there even when rngsus really is hating on you. Good luck!

And unfortunately speccing your RA’s to be a group spec bm means you’ll make some sacrifices in the solo field, you cant have it both ways
Fri 4 Oct 2019 2:21 PM by inoeth
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 2 Oct 2019 4:03 PM
Hi and welcome to my 1st rant thread.

The recently introduced weaponskill debuff is too OP. (QQ)

A badly played rr5 shadowblade (monosodium) should not kill an almost rr11 blades blademaster. (nono)

If you PA > get numbed > purge numb you should just die. (Coz you did a dumb thing purging numb, innit?)

It turns instead that I you don't survive long enough to even slam again a bad player and finish the job. (gg Viper 5)

A slash BM needs purge constanlty up AND either triple wield or damage add charge up to be able to compete. Otherwise even IP3 is barely enough to survive. (whaaaaat?)

This is too OP imho and should be readjusted at least a bit. (say it loud bro)

Now enjoy the mental gymnastics of stealthers saying it's all normal that PAing, purging the wrong shield style and anytiming down a 10l8 slash bm is normal. (/popcorns)

I would appreciate a meaningful feedback from a stealther that plays a tank and recognises at least a little of what I just wrote.

Thank you for reading my rant, have a nice day.

i even killed you on my hunter... hate to say that but you are also not the best player around lol ;D
Fri 4 Oct 2019 2:23 PM by Killaloth
Taniquetil wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:23 PM
Bottom line is im trying to show you that the wscon and viper arent the problem, unless you want assassins nerfed to the point that you can just anytime style them down and out dps them straight up. Because with no block or parry or evades and the fact that youre unhappy about losing that fight despite that much rng against you, is a direct translation of that 🤷‍♂️ 😞

Absolutely this.

Even with all ras and uses down a grp sepc high damage output slash bm should not be outdamaged by a rr5 SB. It was surely an unlucky combination with a rr5 but it's guaranteed VS rr7+. This is wrong. And the average stealther population will get to that rank very soon.

I'm pretty sure that Jackle has more solo ras than me (zero). Also much better to land a short stun with a style that makes damage than with numb.

I could try to strafe to land the side stun but too often I get the message "you were strafing and you miss" or something like that.

And yes wielding a shield will guarantee me a win but would increase the chance of an add.

I want to wear my shield VS a zerk or a merc, not vs a sneak coz I can't outdamage them.

You ask again and I repeat again: yes I should be 100% able to kill a sneak with a 2 style anytime chain + follow up evade/parry even if all is down. Zero shield. It is in my right to whine if this doesn't happen because the combination of all poisons applied on me makes this a hard task.

I want to kill quick and run away to hide, we are not in a duel arena. It's not asking the moon at my rank.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 2:33 PM by Taniquetil
Killaloth wrote: Absolutely this.

Even with all ras and uses down a grp sepc high damage output slash bm should not be outdamaged by a rr5 SB. It was surely an unlucky combination with a rr5 but it's guaranteed VS rr7+. This is wrong. And the average stealther population will get to that rank very soon.

I'm pretty sure that Jackle has more solo ras than me (zero). Also much better to land a short stun with a style that makes damage than with numb.

I could try to strafe to land the side stun but too often I get the message "you were strafing and you miss" or something like that.

And yes wielding a shield will guarantee me a win but would increase the chance of an add.

I want to wear my shield VS a zerk or a merc, not vs a sneak coz I can't outdamage them.

You ask again and I repeat again: yes I should be 100% able to kill a sneak with a 2 style anytime chain + follow up evade/parry even if all is down. Zero shield. It is in my right to whine if this doesn't happen because the combination of all poisons applied on me makes this a hard task.

I want to kill quick and run away to hide, we are not in a duel arena. It's not asking the moon at my rank.

Ok. Well, there is the problem then. I’ve given my 2 cents. I think your mindset is the issue here, but good luck.

Given you stated you are fully group spec, got PA’d fully debuffed and haste debuffed, and you didnt evade or parry once and you refuse to get your shield out to help at all it sounds like arrogance/power fantasy, sorry man, dont mean that to sound harsh but I cant think of another way to say it clearly, as at that point you just want to anytime style down your opponent 🤷‍♂️ Wtf is that for a game, a terrible one, just fyi.

Oh and the kill quick and hide thing, go somewhere other than the super zergy spots and you solve that part of your issue.

Good luck.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 2:34 PM by Killaloth
inoeth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 2:21 PM
i even killed you on my hunter... hate to say that but you are also not the best player around lol ;D

I respeccd to slash few days ago, you prolly killed me when I was pierce.

A good hunter can kill a pierce BM in the vast majority of cases if well played, nothing to lol about that. And I accept it because the resist table is against me.

Apart for Horg and another that I don't remember the rest of hunters did not stand out for their playstyle either.

When I was pierce good hunters were by far the hardest stealthers to fight.

We are going OT btw.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:06 PM by Killaloth
Killaloth wrote: Ok. Well, there is the problem then. I’ve given my 2 cents. I think your mindset is the issue here, but good luck.

Given you stated you are fully group spec, got PA’d fully debuffed and haste debuffed, and you didnt evade or parry once and you refuse to get your shield out to help at all it sounds like arrogance/power fantasy, sorry man, dont mean that to sound harsh but I cant think of another way to say it clearly, as at that point you just want to anytime style down your opponent 🤷♂️ Wtf is that for a game, a terrible one, just fyi.

Oh and the kill quick and hide thing, go somewhere other than the super zergy spots and you solve that part of your issue.

Good luck.

We are far far away on this.

You call it arrogance/power fantasy, I call it normality or what should be the normality.

Yes, anytime and obviously using evade/parry styles. Still should be able to outdamage a SB w/o using much.

It’s the opposite that sounds arrogant to me. Should a stealther 3 or 4 ranks below me be able to outdamage me because of how strong is the current combination of poisons? No. Maybe at same rank and still grp spec.

To me this sounds arrogant. He was anytiming me down, not the other way round.

Anyway I represent a tiny minority of players, I don’t think any change will be made. Just bear in mind that you have embraced an abnormality that looks normal to you now but it still isn't, at least to me.

Yes I will be forced to wear my shield if purge is down, which is quite ridiculous but I'll have to accept the abnormality it seems.

Taking my 30 seconds to kill a sneak, hoping for no adds in the meantime as I can't vanish away and risk to die while the vanished sneak gest partof my juicy rps - gg
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:30 PM by Freedomcall
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:53 PM
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:46 PM
And you keep pointing us that you are 10L8.
HIgher RR can be helpful on duels, but it doesn't always guarantee easy wins.
I want to ask you.
What weapons do you carry? I'm pretty sure you bring dot, debuff, lifetap weapons at least, right?
What RAs did you train? I'm pretty sure you didn't train meaningless RAs such as determination, right? cuz that is just a waste of 22 points vs ssins.

Mainhand shadow walker dex/qui debuff, offhand lifetap
Switch to mainhand DOT when shadow walker procs
Switch to mainhand lifetap when dot procs

Of courseI am det 9 spec. I am det9 mop8 moa5 qui4 and some random points here and there. Group spec to max damage while still keeping ip3 and purge3.

If you put in the bin det9 for high parry and even higher damage you would shred any assassin just by spamming anytime styles I guess.

If you run a full solo spec BM you better run a champ as no one will group you.

I totally understand you speccing on det9, but you should also remember that 10L8 with det9 is just as same as 8L6 with +2 all skills to your opponent ssins.
And viper5 is what ssins can normally spec on rr7+(with purge4 and vanish1), so he was just a rr7 with -2 all skills to you at the fight.
He totally sacrificed other things(long purge downtime or no vanish) to win that 1 fight, while you tried to grab everything.
The actual condition was almost same as rr7 sb vs rr8 bm.
Not to mention reflex attack helps more than moa5 qui4.(Of course RA sucks for 8v8 thou)
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:32 PM by jelzinga_EU
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:06 PM
You call it arrogance/power fantasy, I call it normality or what should be the normality.

Yes, anytime and obviously using evade/parry styles. Still should be able to outdamage a SB w/o using much.

It’s the opposite that sounds arrogant to me. Should a stealther 3 or 4 ranks below me be able to outdamage me because of how strong is the current combination of poisons? No. Maybe at same rank and still grp spec.

To me this sounds arrogant. He was anytiming me down, not the other way round.

A stealther 3-4 ranks below you is roughly equal RR when you take into account you have Determination 9 which does absolutely nothing in a fight against an assassin. Not wanting to use shield at all except for Numb means you throw 30% of your spec-points in the bin too.

You have a sub-optimal spec with a sub-optimal RA-spec in the scenario you describe (fighting an assassin with Purge up). Expecting easy-wins (which is what would happen if you did land Slam) is silly.
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:41 PM by Killaloth
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:30 PM
I totally understand you speccing on det9, but you should also remember that 10L8 with det9 is just as same as 8L6 with +2 all skills to your opponent ssins.
And viper5 is what ssins can normally spec on rr7+(with purge4 and vanish1), so he was just a rr7 with -2 all skills to you at the fight.
He totally sacrificed other things(long purge downtime or no vanish) to win that 1 fight, while you tried to grab everything.
The actual condition was almost same as rr7 sb vs rr8 bm.
Not to mention reflex attack helps more than moa5 qui4.(Of course RA sucks for 8v8 thou)

Nono I'm the one who died, he grabbed my rps by "anytiming me down", I grabbed nothing.

I'm the one who has to burn all if purge is down to "grab everything". Or be forced to engage in longer shield fight coz I'm being outdamaged.

Poor SB he will have to wait 7mins and 30 seconds after taking 2500+ rps for killing me. While the omni-up Viper 5 will still do its job VS softer targets and softer sneaks as more often than not you don't want to stun on evade because guess what.. you'll have to start reapplying all the poisons from 0.

Poor sneak
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:45 PM by Cadebrennus
Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:39 PM
Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 8:18 AM
Doesnt all realms have to make that call?

Alb doesn't as far as I know. I can't remember for Stealthers but my Merc can have an offhand DA proc no problem.

Yes alb can have DA procs but you wanna wait for that proc? So you can have legion+heal after a purge or you wanna hit with DA up from second hit.
DA proc chance is what ? 10%??? aka Killaloth can go a whole fight with out. RGN is evil.

@Killaloth i know very well about S/C debuff charge, so far i have only d/q debuff on crossbow for my encounters vs 2h/shield users.

I favor DA over the charge debuffs most the time, due to purge. but then again if mine is out, i might as well debuff opponent if i have to eat a stun.

In Alb the DA procs so reliably (even in the offhand slot) that I have a near 100% uptime after the first few swings. It's pretty damn significant. I may have a weaponless template but I can't live without that weapon now. Might as well build the next template around that weapon lol
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:53 PM by Freedomcall
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:41 PM
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:30 PM
I totally understand you speccing on det9, but you should also remember that 10L8 with det9 is just as same as 8L6 with +2 all skills to your opponent ssins.
And viper5 is what ssins can normally spec on rr7+(with purge4 and vanish1), so he was just a rr7 with -2 all skills to you at the fight.
He totally sacrificed other things(long purge downtime or no vanish) to win that 1 fight, while you tried to grab everything.
The actual condition was almost same as rr7 sb vs rr8 bm.
Not to mention reflex attack helps more than moa5 qui4.(Of course RA sucks for 8v8 thou)

Nono I'm the one who died, he grabbed my rps by "anytiming me down", I grabbed nothing.

I'm the one who has to burn all if purge is down to "grab everything". Or be forced to engage in longer shield fight coz I'm being outdamaged.

Poor SB he will have to wait 7mins and 30 seconds after taking 2500+ rps for killing me. While the omni-up Viper 5 will still do its job VS softer targets and softer sneaks as more often than not you don't want to stun on evade because guess what.. you'll have to start reapplying all the poisons from 0.

Poor sneak

well you said he was rr5 with viper5, so actually he has to wait 15 minutes(with purge2).
That purge4 was just an example of normally specced sneaks.
And I don't think he got 2500+ rps. cuz killing even rr11 personally gave me 1500ish rps.
So he has to afk 15 minutes for 1500ish rps.

I wouldn't spec like that, but w/e. That's what happened.
Sun 6 Oct 2019 11:12 AM by Loki
Thanks for this thread, I haven't laughed as much in months ...
Sun 6 Oct 2019 2:45 PM by Siouxsie
Killaloth -- it's not you, it's the server mechanics.
Assassins and Archers aren't meant to take on tanks and win -- their favored prey is supposed to be Casters.
But casters have PD and Moc and laugh at the arrows, etc..
So assassins complained -- then the mechanics changed and made them super powerful.

Resists are broken here. A lvl 23 minstrel can play his stupid little flute and mezz a high RR lvl 50 player. No problem. That spell should have been resisted.
If a RR2 assassin fights me, I should have a higher chance of resisting their poisons.. but I don't. They all get applied at the same resist rate whether I'm RR1 or RR13.

A RR9 blademaster should have destroyed a RR5 infi quite easily, but because of the insane weaponskill debuff and the way it makes it so easy to swap weapons in less than a second, makes it impossible. The fact that an assassin can take on a tank and win is pretty ludicrous. Casters unkillable by melee, assassins killing tanks. The server mechanics have been turned on their head.
Sun 6 Oct 2019 4:47 PM by Taniquetil
Loki wrote:
Sun 6 Oct 2019 11:12 AM
Thanks for this thread, I haven't laughed as much in months ...

Have I made the last few months that tough for you? 😞😘


Siouxsie wrote: Killaloth -- it's not you, it's the server mechanics.
Assassins and Archers aren't meant to take on tanks and win -- their favored prey is supposed to be Casters.
But casters have PD and Moc and laugh at the arrows, etc..
So assassins complained -- then the mechanics changed and made them super powerful.

😂 It’s 2-3 caster classes that are a problem and MoC isnt the reason at all.... and 2 of them are in mid, your hunter has it pretty easy. If you cant play around moc it is not the games fault 🤷‍♂️

Siouxsie wrote: Resists are broken here. A lvl 23 minstrel can play his stupid little flute and mezz a high RR lvl 50 player. No problem. That spell should have been resisted.
If a RR2 assassin fights me, I should have a higher chance of resisting their poisons.. but I don't. They all get applied at the same resist rate whether I'm RR1 or RR13.

You do realise RR doesnt affect resist rate, only level of opponent and level of spell being cast, and a low level mezz has a much higher resist rate than a lvl 50 mezz. Try playing a split spec or a low pac healer with no MoF and see how often your spec line mezz/stuns gets resisted 😂

Siouxsie wrote: A RR9 blademaster should have destroyed a RR5 infi quite easily, but because of the insane weaponskill debuff and the way it makes it so easy to swap weapons in less than a second, makes it impossible. The fact that an assassin can take on a tank and win is pretty ludicrous. Casters unkillable by melee, assassins killing tanks. The server mechanics have been turned on their head.

A group specced bm that refuses to get his shield out is giving up a lot of utility and defense (20-25% block rate over 16 swings) shouldve blocked 4 swings, roughly 400 dmg at the rough math averaging 2 mainhand and 2 offhand swings at the generalised dps needed to kill the bm before numb immunity was up..., and faced terrible rng in order to lose 🤷‍♂️ 0 parry 0 evade (thats v unlikely) And only had to use the same swap macro that the sin had available to him in order to get his shield out, except the sin (maybe, we dont actually know, youve just assumed) used it and the bm didnt.

Stick to grouping with visibles or go play Uno or something. Just dont complain about the +4 card being OP.
Sun 6 Oct 2019 6:05 PM by gruenesschaf
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 6 Oct 2019 2:45 PM
Resists are broken here. A lvl 23 minstrel can play his stupid little flute and mezz a high RR lvl 50 player. No problem. That spell should have been resisted.
If a RR2 assassin fights me, I should have a higher chance of resisting their poisons.. but I don't. They all get applied at the same resist rate whether I'm RR1 or RR13.

Somewhere long before 1.65 that would have been the case but some patch wanted to encourage low levels to be more effective in rvr: in pvp only spell vs target level is relevant, in pve the caster level also plays a role. Incredibly easy to test on pend, duel some level 50 player with a level 20 char and see that you get through pretty much everything, switch over to the level 50 dummy and see that you won't ever hit it. And RR never influenced the resist rate, in fact the only spell where +skill is supposed to have any effect whatsoever on resist rate is charm.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 1:07 PM by Lillebror
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:06 PM
Killaloth wrote: Ok. Well, there is the problem then. I’ve given my 2 cents. I think your mindset is the issue here, but good luck.

Given you stated you are fully group spec, got PA’d fully debuffed and haste debuffed, and you didnt evade or parry once and you refuse to get your shield out to help at all it sounds like arrogance/power fantasy, sorry man, dont mean that to sound harsh but I cant think of another way to say it clearly, as at that point you just want to anytime style down your opponent 🤷♂️ Wtf is that for a game, a terrible one, just fyi.

Oh and the kill quick and hide thing, go somewhere other than the super zergy spots and you solve that part of your issue.

Good luck.

We are far far away on this.

You call it arrogance/power fantasy, I call it normality or what should be the normality.

Yes, anytime and obviously using evade/parry styles. Still should be able to outdamage a SB w/o using much.

It’s the opposite that sounds arrogant to me. Should a stealther 3 or 4 ranks below me be able to outdamage me because of how strong is the current combination of poisons? No. Maybe at same rank and still grp spec.

To me this sounds arrogant. He was anytiming me down, not the other way round.

Anyway I represent a tiny minority of players, I don’t think any change will be made. Just bear in mind that you have embraced an abnormality that looks normal to you now but it still isn't, at least to me.

Yes I will be forced to wear my shield if purge is down, which is quite ridiculous but I'll have to accept the abnormality it seems.

Taking my 30 seconds to kill a sneak, hoping for no adds in the meantime as I can't vanish away and risk to die while the vanished sneak gest partof my juicy rps - gg

When i read all this i understand i suck so hard, because i die to tanks.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 1:10 PM by Lillebror
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:45 PM
Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 12:39 PM
Alb doesn't as far as I know. I can't remember for Stealthers but my Merc can have an offhand DA proc no problem.

Yes alb can have DA procs but you wanna wait for that proc? So you can have legion+heal after a purge or you wanna hit with DA up from second hit.
DA proc chance is what ? 10%??? aka Killaloth can go a whole fight with out. RGN is evil.

@Killaloth i know very well about S/C debuff charge, so far i have only d/q debuff on crossbow for my encounters vs 2h/shield users.

I favor DA over the charge debuffs most the time, due to purge. but then again if mine is out, i might as well debuff opponent if i have to eat a stun.

In Alb the DA procs so reliably (even in the offhand slot) that I have a near 100% uptime after the first few swings. It's pretty damn significant. I may have a weaponless template but I can't live without that weapon now. Might as well build the next template around that weapon lol

should save me a ton of money then, i run the str/con debuff proc and i cant say i notice it fire THAT often
Mon 7 Oct 2019 2:19 PM by Cadebrennus
Lillebror wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 1:10 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:45 PM
Lillebror wrote:
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:13 PM
Yes alb can have DA procs but you wanna wait for that proc? So you can have legion+heal after a purge or you wanna hit with DA up from second hit.
DA proc chance is what ? 10%??? aka Killaloth can go a whole fight with out. RGN is evil.

@Killaloth i know very well about S/C debuff charge, so far i have only d/q debuff on crossbow for my encounters vs 2h/shield users.

I favor DA over the charge debuffs most the time, due to purge. but then again if mine is out, i might as well debuff opponent if i have to eat a stun.

In Alb the DA procs so reliably (even in the offhand slot) that I have a near 100% uptime after the first few swings. It's pretty damn significant. I may have a weaponless template but I can't live without that weapon now. Might as well build the next template around that weapon lol

should save me a ton of money then, i run the str/con debuff proc and i cant say i notice it fire THAT often

I also run a fast MH for the first swing and swap to a slow MH for all follow-up styles, so that probably helps. The offhand proc chance is dependent only on the offhand weapon speed so using a fast mainhand is probably helping things a lot here. Basically, I'm swinging at cap speed approximately 50% of the time. Like I mentioned earlier, even with the 30 second uptime it's still up nearly 100% once it fires, which doesn't take long either.
Tue 8 Oct 2019 12:03 PM by Lillebror
With 50dw+15 i have a offhand chance to hit 70% and then You have a 10% proc rate for it to fire.

And in Killalots case, he die in 12-13 seconds. I dont Get how You manage to have it up earlie in each fight with out useing charge (what i do)
Wed 9 Oct 2019 1:30 AM by Killaloth
I tested 5 duels with Naas (rr11) today simulating no purge and no IP up but using both damage add and triple wield.

Numb only makes sense straight after PA to try land a side chain. After that trying to land a 2nd numb while getting devastated by viper makes no sense, if you miss once or you get evaded you're dead.

Wearing a shield also makes 0 sense if you have viper on, you're still going down, it just takes longer.

The only strategy that kinda work is to numb once and then try to outdamage wearing both weapons. 50% chance to die still. I have moparry 3 now.

Otherwise you have to switch shield between styles which it's something I'll have to refine to fight... stealthers.

Also it makes little sense to go blades to solo as vs assassins you need purge and IP regardless (while you gimp yourself vs thanes and skalds).

The solo population is now reduced to the usual fotm classes and I'm not sure another buff to sneaks was needed since most of them already stealthzerg. Who is regularly running solo something other than SMs, BDs, necros, double slam thanes and champs? Few skalds, 1 merc, 2 reavers, 1 valewalker. Forgive me if I forgot someone.

I think strong sneaks are partly responsible for the extinction of other solo classes, together with all the red-is-dead that can't let a 1vs1 finish before adding.

I win most of solo fights vs stealthers but having to use RAs vs a class that should not require much is no fun.
Wed 9 Oct 2019 6:02 AM by Sepplord
i sense a bit of irony about you on one hand mentioning grouping stealther demeaningly, but in the same comment say you shouldn't even require RAs to beat them
Wed 9 Oct 2019 8:04 AM by gotwqqd
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 6:02 AM
i sense a bit of irony about you on one hand mentioning grouping stealther demeaningly, but in the same comment say you shouldn't even require RAs to beat them
Maybe he shouldn’t need IP/purge ....isn’t his archetype the stealth killer?

I love assassin classes but poisons need tuning
Wed 9 Oct 2019 12:34 PM by Siouxsie
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 1:30 AM
I think strong sneaks are partly responsible for the extinction of other solo classes, together with all the red-is-dead that can't let a 1vs1 finish before adding.

THIS ^^^ Quoted for truth. You hit the nail on the head, Killaloth.
Wed 9 Oct 2019 12:39 PM by Sepplord
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 12:34 PM
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 1:30 AM
I think strong sneaks are partly responsible for the extinction of other solo classes, together with all the red-is-dead that can't let a 1vs1 finish before adding.

THIS ^^^ Quoted for truth. You hit the nail on the head, Killaloth.

same could be said about the other left-over solo-classes
Wed 9 Oct 2019 2:50 PM by Lillebror
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 12:39 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 12:34 PM
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 1:30 AM
I think strong sneaks are partly responsible for the extinction of other solo classes, together with all the red-is-dead that can't let a 1vs1 finish before adding.

THIS ^^^ Quoted for truth. You hit the nail on the head, Killaloth.

same could be said about the other left-over solo-classes

This make sense, you need to adjust all the go to solo choices then, not only the stealthers.
But should a tank of equal rr be a Assassin killer what ever spec/setup.
If thats the caste i want a freeroll too vs any caster even if i spec out of stealth. Should be able to since we are the caster killer...

I spec 552points into stealth to get an advantage (to be able to pick fights, i do it poorly), maybe the tank need to use the line they spec 902 points into to be the assassin killer? @Killaloth you keep forcing circles into a squar. If it doesnt work, try to adapt. Tani is the wisest here so far, by far.
Wed 9 Oct 2019 2:52 PM by Cadebrennus
Lillebror wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 2:50 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 12:39 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 12:34 PM
THIS ^^^ Quoted for truth. You hit the nail on the head, Killaloth.

same could be said about the other left-over solo-classes

This make sense, you need to adjust all the go to solo choices then, not only the stealthers.
But should a tank of equal rr be a Assassin killer what ever spec/setup.
If thats the caste i want a freeroll too vs any caster even if i spec out of stealth. Should be able to since we are the caster killer...

This actually used to be the case until Casters whined back in classic
Wed 9 Oct 2019 5:56 PM by Mavella
If your not abusing high parry and decent level of purge you're doing it wrong. Viper 5 is 30 points for additional 200 damage in 15 second window. That's like 1-1.5 swings worth of damage. Not exactly earth shattering. The benefit is of course it can't be block/parried/evaded. You have the tools to turtle up while still maintaining considerable damage. Take more purge when you purge a stun you get to heal for 500 instead of 250 since the disease will be gone. You can spec for comical amounts of parry with spec and RAs. If you flip between DW and S/S between swings you'll be almost unhittable. If you have TW up you can't he crit. Toughness also increases your flat hp which cannot be debuffed. Reflex Attack is also still quite strong against assassins. Combined with high parry you don't get hit but get to take many more swings back at the enemy. You you have all the tools available to chew up a lot of sins. You have to utilize them. I doubt you're going to find a catch all spec that will let you excell in both groups and solo, sorry.
Wed 9 Oct 2019 6:16 PM by Killaloth
Lillebror wrote: @Killaloth you keep forcing circles into a squar. If it doesnt work, try to adapt. Tani is the wisest here so far, by far.

I don't need to adapt. I'm still winning like 95%? of stealther fights coz there is little action left and RAs are often up. I'm just saying that it should be a breeze for my rank but it isn't at all. The only result of this thread has been to bring me more rps as more stealthers try and try again. Good for the little rvr solo action left for me I'd say.

But I'm not surprised that lower RR visible soloers have basically disappeared apart for coastguards.

I guess it's not fun for them to explode easily by one or more sneaks as soon as they leave the keep.

Again we can close this thread, apparently ppl need to adapt and learn to shield swap properly between swings to win VS sneaks of same rank.

Too bad shield swapping between swings has never been a thing on DAoC, and some classes were winning with no issues without that. I'm pretty sure the name of the game I was playing was still DAoC back in the days...
Wed 9 Oct 2019 6:26 PM by Killaloth
Mavella wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 5:56 PM
If your not abusing high parry and decent level of purge you're doing it wrong. Viper 5 is 30 points for additional 200 damage in 15 second window. That's like 1-1.5 swings worth of damage. Not exactly earth shattering. The benefit is of course it can't be block/parried/evaded. You have the tools to turtle up while still maintaining considerable damage. Take more purge when you purge a stun you get to heal for 500 instead of 250 since the disease will be gone. You can spec for comical amounts of parry with spec and RAs. If you flip between DW and S/S between swings you'll be almost unhittable. If you have TW up you can't he crit. Toughness also increases your flat hp which cannot be debuffed. Reflex Attack is also still quite strong against assassins. Combined with high parry you don't get hit but get to take many more swings back at the enemy. You you have all the tools available to chew up a lot of sins. You have to utilize them. I doubt you're going to find a catch all spec that will let you excell in both groups and solo, sorry.

Yes I know, a Det9 spec with high damage output is not enough VS sneaks if you don't burn purge and/or IP.

I also apparently need to put (a lot of) points in other RAs so that my smallman and group spec becomes no longer feasible.

All of this to be able to win sneaks w/o using purge and IP.

As I said already I was probably not playing a blademaster back in the days and this is the real version of DAoC I've never experienced before, thank you.

Also, the fact that I am not running with casted ABS buff, Damage Add and haste is prolly also playing a part coz these little things on Hibernia do not exist. Thank god we have at least a juicy underpop RP bonus always up.
Wed 9 Oct 2019 7:18 PM by Cadebrennus
Killaloth, as much as I think that tanks should definitely be able to beat sneaks handily, I don't ever think "it should be a breeze". This is where you and I differ, and this is from someone who plays sneaks and tanks (I love melee, hate playing magic users). Regardless of the situation, there should always be an element of risk, and this is where DAOC excels vs other MMOs, even ones based on PvP combat. Of course, there are exceptions (like SM and BD) where the outcome is almost always guaranteed. I like the fact that regardless of what (most) classes are played, a fight can go in any direction whether solo, smallman, 8man, or zerg.
Wed 9 Oct 2019 9:16 PM by Killaloth
Cadebrennus wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 7:18 PM
Killaloth, as much as I think that tanks should definitely be able to beat sneaks handily, I don't ever think "it should be a breeze". This is where you and I differ, and this is from someone who plays sneaks and tanks (I love melee, hate playing magic users). Regardless of the situation, there should always be an element of risk, and this is where DAOC excels vs other MMOs, even ones based on PvP combat. Of course, there are exceptions (like SM and BD) where the outcome is almost always guaranteed. I like the fact that regardless of what (most) classes are played, a fight can go in any direction whether solo, smallman, 8man, or zerg.

I'm not the one that likes easy wins, if you look at the solo kills for visible classes I'm prolly one of the few that has a decent number with a grp spec and a "non-fotm" class. Call it self-harm maybe.

It's not a breeze for me VS lots of classes but should it be a breeze to beat a sneak 6 realm ranks below mine? Yes. Is it now? Not at all.

Is it normal? For the majority of ppl feeding a 100 pages stealther thread apparently it is.

This imbalance makes it harder and harder to find solo visibles. Due to imbalance and ppl behaviour.
Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:55 AM by Freedomcall
Killaloth wrote: I don't need to adapt. I'm still winning like 95%? of stealther fights coz there is little action left and RAs are often up.

Cool.
It turned out that BM is strong enough to wins 95% against assassins.
There was nothing wrong.
End of the thread.
Thu 10 Oct 2019 6:34 AM by Sepplord
Yeah seriously, you claim you are winning 95% of your fights against assassins, but still complain?

You either got nothing to complain about or you just had to lie about how strong you are when people attacked your skill...

either way, that means there is nothing to discuss with you

/thread
Thu 10 Oct 2019 8:53 AM by iamsaitam
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 6:16 PM
Lillebror wrote: @Killaloth you keep forcing circles into a squar. If it doesnt work, try to adapt. Tani is the wisest here so far, by far.

I don't need to adapt. I'm still winning like 95%? of stealther fights coz there is little action left and RAs are often up. I'm just saying that it should be a breeze for my rank but it isn't at all. The only result of this thread has been to bring me more rps as more stealthers try and try again. Good for the little rvr solo action left for me I'd say.

But I'm not surprised that lower RR visible soloers have basically disappeared apart for coastguards.

I guess it's not fun for them to explode easily by one or more sneaks as soon as they leave the keep.

Again we can close this thread, apparently ppl need to adapt and learn to shield swap properly between swings to win VS sneaks of same rank.

Too bad shield swapping between swings has never been a thing on DAoC, and some classes were winning with no issues without that. I'm pretty sure the name of the game I was playing was still DAoC back in the days...

I've done a bit of soloing in the past week with my BM (we actually played yesterday in the same group Killaloth).. it's not a fun experience most of the times, because I'm low RR and don't have a pro-temp. I'm also group specced (42 shield) and although slam is great when it doesn't get purged, versus assassins it doesn't really matter it either get's purged after PA or I'm almost dead/debuffed to shit when it does get through.

A bit offtopic, would a medium shield help with blocking 1vs1?

ps: the best strategy against assassins is to avoid bridges/docks.. 100% effective technique.
Thu 10 Oct 2019 10:48 AM by Killaloth
iamsaitam wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 8:53 AM
Killaloth wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 6:16 PM
Lillebror wrote: @Killaloth you keep forcing circles into a squar. If it doesnt work, try to adapt. Tani is the wisest here so far, by far.

I don't need to adapt. I'm still winning like 95%? of stealther fights coz there is little action left and RAs are often up. I'm just saying that it should be a breeze for my rank but it isn't at all. The only result of this thread has been to bring me more rps as more stealthers try and try again. Good for the little rvr solo action left for me I'd say.

But I'm not surprised that lower RR visible soloers have basically disappeared apart for coastguards.

I guess it's not fun for them to explode easily by one or more sneaks as soon as they leave the keep.

Again we can close this thread, apparently ppl need to adapt and learn to shield swap properly between swings to win VS sneaks of same rank.

Too bad shield swapping between swings has never been a thing on DAoC, and some classes were winning with no issues without that. I'm pretty sure the name of the game I was playing was still DAoC back in the days...

I've done a bit of soloing in the past week with my BM (we actually played yesterday in the same group Killaloth).. it's not a fun experience most of the times, because I'm low RR and don't have a pro-temp. I'm also group specced (42 shield) and although slam is great when it doesn't get purged, versus assassins it doesn't really matter it either get's purged after PA or I'm almost dead/debuffed to shit when it does get through.

A bit offtopic, would a medium shield help with blocking 1vs1?

ps: the best strategy against assassins is to avoid bridges/docks.. 100% effective technique.

Good timing after the previous two replies that only selected the part of the story they want to hear.

Send me in game, you don't need a pro-temp, just a semi weaponless where you can switch one weapon. A medium shield can block attacks from 2 enemies, a small only from one.

You are part of the visible player base disappearing from the solo action and although stealthers can clsee there is much less visible stuff to inc they don't see how they are part of the problem.

I win 95% of the fights with my rank and have to use RAs. An equal rank grp specced blademaster has very little chances with no purge, hence the imbalance. It's not even close to 50%.

I guess when stealthers, BDs, SMs, necro, champs, skald and thanes will be the only thing left to inc solo we will see the stealther thread growing more rapidly as they'd be killing each other all day long.
Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:17 PM by Freedomcall
Killaloth wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 10:48 AM
I win 95% of the fights with my rank and have to use RAs. An equal rank grp specced blademaster has very little chances with no purge, hence the imbalance. It's not even close to 50%.


Seriously, What's this supposed to mean?
You are high rank, hence more realm points to spend.
Thx to RAs you get, you become stronger.
And then you suddenly cry you have very little chance without RAs.
What is this nonsense? lol....

About purge.
Why do you think ssins invest their realm points into purge4 and purge5?
Those 22, 30 points are literally a waste in the point of view from dmg output.
But they spend those wasted points on purge bc they know they have little chance to win without purge.

And you say "An equal rank" "grp specced" blademaster has little chances with "no purge", hence the IMBALANCE.
Wow.
Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:33 PM by Freedomcall
iamsaitam wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 8:53 AM
A bit offtopic, would a medium shield help with blocking 1vs1?



Shield size does nothing on 1v1.
You can just test this by changing your shield while doing combat.
Funny thing was small shield had higher block rate than large shield by 0.0X%.
Couldn't figure out the reason, but I can say that difference could be ignored.

But you block better when you are attacked by multiple attackers.
So if you are being assisted by 2, medium shield will be better in terms of block rate.
And bigger shield provides higher block rate against ranged attack(arrows, bolts).
Thu 10 Oct 2019 3:30 PM by Killaloth
Freedomcall wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:17 PM
Killaloth wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 10:48 AM
I win 95% of the fights with my rank and have to use RAs. An equal rank grp specced blademaster has very little chances with no purge, hence the imbalance. It's not even close to 50%.


Seriously, What's this supposed to mean?
You are high rank, hence more realm points to spend.
Thx to RAs you get, you become stronger.
And then you suddenly cry you have very little chance without RAs.
What is this nonsense? lol....

About purge.
Why do you think ssins invest their realm points into purge4 and purge5?
Those 22, 30 points are literally a waste in the point of view from dmg output.
But they spend those wasted points on purge bc they know they have little chance to win without purge.

And you say "An equal rank" "grp specced" blademaster has little chances with "no purge", hence the IMBALANCE.
Wow.

It's only partly about me as the solo action is so dead right now that you often have ras up. I was and I am still abhorred about how easy it is now for a sneak to get a kill on most visible melees.

I don't know if you ever played a BM or another tank on other shards or on daoc official with old frontiers. If you did you could tell the difference and feel the imbalance here.

Do you see the difference between having little chance to win without purge (surely in most of cases you can still vanish away or snare away without dying) and having a very high chance to win with purge VS a target that should normally eat you for breakfast?

Also, you are stealthed and you can choose when to Inc, i.e. when purge is up. Inc now with purge up and have an easy win or run away/vanish. Cool.

Purge up for the sneak, down for the tank: I'm calling for a 50%/50% chance balance at least. Currently, we are far away from there. You get your kill almost guaranteed.

You're still focussing on one side of the coin and we are both wasting time.

The reality is that the visible solo population that goes more than 1000 loc away from a keep has disappeared, apart from the OP classes and few players whose name you know because... they are very few. Sneaks don't care as they can still kill each other or zerg the OP classes. To me losing part of the fun of the game is a problem and I see a correlation with both toxic red-is-dead behaviour and imbalanced stealthers.

Imagine for a second DAoC with 0 stealthers. How many solo visible classes would you see around? I'd say a lot more.

If you don't see them now how much responsibility would you distribute between getting ganked by groups and losing easily VS same rank stealther?

Last post I write, we're just wasting time and ppl are cherry-picking only the bit of replies they want to hear.
Thu 10 Oct 2019 5:59 PM by Freedomcall
Killaloth wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 3:30 PM
Freedomcall wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:17 PM
Killaloth wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 10:48 AM
I win 95% of the fights with my rank and have to use RAs. An equal rank grp specced blademaster has very little chances with no purge, hence the imbalance. It's not even close to 50%.


Seriously, What's this supposed to mean?
You are high rank, hence more realm points to spend.
Thx to RAs you get, you become stronger.
And then you suddenly cry you have very little chance without RAs.
What is this nonsense? lol....

About purge.
Why do you think ssins invest their realm points into purge4 and purge5?
Those 22, 30 points are literally a waste in the point of view from dmg output.
But they spend those wasted points on purge bc they know they have little chance to win without purge.

And you say "An equal rank" "grp specced" blademaster has little chances with "no purge", hence the IMBALANCE.
Wow.

It's only partly about me as the solo action is so dead right now that you often have ras up. I was and I am still abhorred about how easy it is now for a sneak to get a kill on most visible melees.

I don't know if you ever played a BM or another tank on other shards or on daoc official with old frontiers. If you did you could tell the difference and feel the imbalance here.

Do you see the difference between having little chance to win without purge (surely in most of cases you can still vanish away or snare away without dying) and having a very high chance to win with purge VS a target that should normally eat you for breakfast?

Also, you are stealthed and you can choose when to Inc, i.e. when purge is up. Inc now with purge up and have an easy win or run away/vanish. Cool.

Purge up for the sneak, down for the tank: I'm calling for a 50%/50% chance balance at least. Currently, we are far away from there. You get your kill almost guaranteed.

You're still focussing on one side of the coin and we are both wasting time.

The reality is that the visible solo population that goes more than 1000 loc away from a keep has disappeared, apart from the OP classes and few players whose name you know because... they are very few. Sneaks don't care as they can still kill each other or zerg the OP classes. To me losing part of the fun of the game is a problem and I see a correlation with both toxic red-is-dead behaviour and imbalanced stealthers.

Imagine for a second DAoC with 0 stealthers. How many solo visible classes would you see around? I'd say a lot more.

If you don't see them now how much responsibility would you distribute between getting ganked by groups and losing easily VS same rank stealther?

Last post I write, we're just wasting time and ppl are cherry-picking only the bit of replies they want to hear.

Well I wouldnt have written more because you said that would be your last post. But i see so many question marks in your post that i couldnt just avoid writing.

I think comparing to old daoc isnt pretty much right.
Yes i had a BM back in the days in 2002, but i had 50blades/50celtic duel/28parry spec. I remember ppl had no idea why BMs even have to care about shields. I could be wrong, but at least my guildies and ppl around me talked about how much parry BM needed and no one ever talked about speccing shield. Maybe you were one of the enlightened person thou and specced shield in 2002 already.

Also, I didnt have another account for buff bot. Not only i were very casual as a teenager but i also remember that playing as a grp was one of the mottos in DAoC, and i did that way.
That was the reason I was astonished when i saw Drimacus's solo wizard video. He looked like a superman to me But you know he was also using buff bot.

I didnt usually travel solo, but sometimes i had to catch up my grp alone. High portion of solo ssins were using buff bots already iirc, and all i remember is just watching my char going down after that 9sec dragonfang and endless hamstrings. :p

Maybe i am biased about 15+ years ago, but iirc most of the ppl were badly templated and had no idea how to optimize their chars like me. This is one of the reason I don't think devs should rely too much on "ppl's perception of good ole days" on balancing, but maybe just me.

Anyway, now on phoenix, my highest RR chars are ssins, but that doesnt mean i dont play other chars. I also like to play melees and healers. The difference is i just don't play them solo. Whenever i want to play solo, i play ssins or minstrel. whenever i want to play in grps, i play tanks or healers. i just seperate them.

If there were no ssins on DAoC, sure, maybe i could select visi for solo. But I'm pretty sure i would select chars with some speed cuz i dont like to walk around frontiers without speed.
You are blaming ssins for visi solos hanging around keeps, but remember what you do after a fight. you walk back for hastener to get a speed. Solo visis without speed are bound to hastener, ie keep or dock, regardless of stealthers.

But anyway I'll also stop writing on this thread cuz we have different pov that cant close gap and ppl likes to blame things anyway.
Tue 15 Oct 2019 2:11 PM by iamsaitam
Roaming is not a thing for soloers (unless you got speed). I don't know if it's because of getting ganked by groups or stealthers, but that's the main issue. Don't think the issue is speed per se, it's more the chances of finding a fair fight along the wait taking into account the time you might need to find one (which can be lessened by speed ofc). This server doesn't have either the culture or foundation to allow soloing for visuals, it's just not there.
Tue 15 Oct 2019 2:30 PM by MrWolf
neither stealthers are soloing a lot here anymore lol...
Wed 16 Oct 2019 10:45 AM by BashPi
it's hard to play solo if you get ganked all day. i can understand why people start stealthgroups and gank all these small man i kill everyone gangs
Wed 16 Oct 2019 5:12 PM by Riac
BashPi wrote:
Wed 16 Oct 2019 10:45 AM
it's hard to play solo if you get ganked all day. i can understand why people start stealthgroups and gank all these small man i kill everyone gangs

this guy hit the nail on the head lol. i find it kind of funny killaloth comes on here and bitches about the solo action dieing and then you see him in game acting like an asshole lol. just last night he was running around with a bard and chanter and killing ppl running to the boat docks solo, i bet they really enjoyed their solo experience lol. this time it had 0 to do with stealthers and everything to do with small mans acting like assholes (8 mans do that same thing, which is even sadder)
Wed 16 Oct 2019 7:54 PM by Sepplord
the thing is...you can avoid that easily by grouping or stealthing

getting ganked as solo and then turning to grouped stealthing doesn't add up and i doubt that most stealthzergers were visible soloers before


there are surely good reasons for some people to play in stealthed groups, but being ganked as solo-visible doesn't add up as reason logically for me
Tue 22 Oct 2019 5:33 PM by FiltyTrator
Nobody has got to the heart of this issue, which is not surprising because half you shades are exploiting the GM's poor planning.

Tanks are dying to shades for one reason, and that is how stupid con debuff is here. On live, con debuff becomes less effective when the debuff is of a greater than your buffs, to prevent people have having too much of their base HP stripped. That is not the case here. Also, devs allow w/s debuff poison to stack with str/con debuff procs and charges. So that's two two full value spec con debuffs instead of one single debuff with diminishing returns. This brings a potion buffed BM down to like 800 max hits. You can purge/legion/ip, and they press one button to debuff you again, effectively doing another 1000 damage in a single combat round.

The reason you are not beating shadowblades is because the Phoenix devs don't want you to, plain and simple. The ones you can easily beat probably don't know how con debuffs work here, I'll bet they assume it functions in some sane way like it does on live or all the other freeshards that have come and gone.
Tue 22 Oct 2019 6:29 PM by gruenesschaf
FiltyTrator wrote:
Tue 22 Oct 2019 5:33 PM
Nobody has got to the heart of this issue, which is not surprising because half you shades are exploiting the GM's poor planning.

Tanks are dying to shades for one reason, and that is how stupid con debuff is here. On live, con debuff becomes less effective when the debuff is of a greater than your buffs, to prevent people have having too much of their base HP stripped. That is not the case here. Also, devs allow w/s debuff poison to stack with str/con debuff procs and charges. So that's two two full value spec con debuffs instead of one single debuff with diminishing returns. This brings a potion buffed BM down to like 800 max hits. You can purge/legion/ip, and they press one button to debuff you again, effectively doing another 1000 damage in a single combat round.

The reason you are not beating shadowblades is because the Phoenix devs don't want you to, plain and simple. The ones you can easily beat probably don't know how con debuffs work here, I'll bet they assume it functions in some sane way like it does on live or all the other freeshards that have come and gone.

A bug report showing the expected behavior and comparing it with the current would be nice instead of some text like this. Right now buffs are reduced as they are by debuffs, once the buff value reaches 0 only half of the remainder is applied to the base + item bonus, exactly like resists.

E.g.:
+60 base con
+75 con from items
= 135 unbuffed

+120 con from buffs
-118 con from debuffs
= 2 buff con

135 + 2 = 137 remaining con

+60 base con
+75 con from items
= 135 unbuffed

+53 con from buffs
-118 con from debuffs
= -65 buff con

135 (-65 / 2) = 103 remaining con
Tue 22 Oct 2019 7:47 PM by FiltyTrator
Looking at the bug forum, somebody reported it 8 months ago and you're still waiting to make a decision. That made it seem intentional to me, but since you say it's a bug I reported again.
Tue 22 Oct 2019 8:56 PM by gruenesschaf
FiltyTrator wrote:
Tue 22 Oct 2019 7:47 PM
Looking at the bug forum, somebody reported it 8 months ago and you're still waiting to make a decision. That made it seem intentional to me, but since you say it's a bug I reported again.

I was more thinking about your remark regarding dimishing returns but yes the double debuff should have seen a decision but hasn't until now.
Wed 23 Oct 2019 5:27 PM by Rhox
Riac wrote:
Wed 16 Oct 2019 5:12 PM
BashPi wrote:
Wed 16 Oct 2019 10:45 AM
it's hard to play solo if you get ganked all day. i can understand why people start stealthgroups and gank all these small man i kill everyone gangs

this guy hit the nail on the head lol. i find it kind of funny killaloth comes on here and bitches about the solo action dieing and then you see him in game acting like an asshole lol. just last night he was running around with a bard and chanter and killing ppl running to the boat docks solo, i bet they really enjoyed their solo experience lol. this time it had 0 to do with stealthers and everything to do with small mans acting like assholes (8 mans do that same thing, which is even sadder)

^^^^ This. Killaloth is a nice guy! I'm not hating on him on him at all. But the reason solo visibles are dead / dying is the small mans, not the stealthers. I played solo visibles for about 2 million RPs and racked up 1000 or so solo kills. I loved, loved, loved when any solo sin jumped (tried to gank me) as that was what I was looking for. Sure I took a lot of losses but it was a fair 1v1. I made the move to so stealthers because all the 2 and 3 mans running around ganking soloers. If I lose to a RR11 sin I get it and that's fine they put more effort in the game and I deserve to lose. Losing to a speed and two other classes that might not even be templated just pissed me off over time.

Let the record state I am not bashing killaloth or anyone else for running small groups. I get it. I see the fun in it. Its also a great way to get RPs. Just saying as someone who has retired from solo visible the decision was based 100% on small mans.
Wed 23 Oct 2019 11:11 PM by Killaloth
Rhox wrote:
Wed 23 Oct 2019 5:27 PM
Riac wrote:
Wed 16 Oct 2019 5:12 PM
BashPi wrote:
Wed 16 Oct 2019 10:45 AM
it's hard to play solo if you get ganked all day. i can understand why people start stealthgroups and gank all these small man i kill everyone gangs

this guy hit the nail on the head lol. i find it kind of funny killaloth comes on here and bitches about the solo action dieing and then you see him in game acting like an asshole lol. just last night he was running around with a bard and chanter and killing ppl running to the boat docks solo, i bet they really enjoyed their solo experience lol. this time it had 0 to do with stealthers and everything to do with small mans acting like assholes (8 mans do that same thing, which is even sadder)

^^^^ This. Killaloth is a nice guy! I'm not hating on him on him at all. But the reason solo visibles are dead / dying is the small mans, not the stealthers. I played solo visibles for about 2 million RPs and racked up 1000 or so solo kills. I loved, loved, loved when any solo sin jumped (tried to gank me) as that was what I was looking for. Sure I took a lot of losses but it was a fair 1v1. I made the move to so stealthers because all the 2 and 3 mans running around ganking soloers. If I lose to a RR11 sin I get it and that's fine they put more effort in the game and I deserve to lose. Losing to a speed and two other classes that might not even be templated just pissed me off over time.

Let the record state I am not bashing killaloth or anyone else for running small groups. I get it. I see the fun in it. Its also a great way to get RPs. Just saying as someone who has retired from solo visible the decision was based 100% on small mans.

Yes sometimes you have to adapt to other ppl play style especially when they are one of the 4? 5? decent bards left and you don't want to piss them off.

Hope someone also noticed the other times when we run past 1vs1 w/o add too. Anyway I've shelved my gimpo BM for now, rolling some toons on alb so that I can enjoy the stealthzerg as a rr3 caster lmao.

PS: devs if you could implement the /smallman cmd it would be great, I'm actually kinda scared to roam with a smallman as a lowbie caster while 4785854747 sneaks wait to add :/

Next step join the stealth wagon if this doesn't work, hold on a sec to fix stuff
Wed 23 Oct 2019 11:34 PM by Sindralor
alb can use some more infiltrators
Thu 24 Oct 2019 1:44 PM by Rhox
Sindralor wrote:
Wed 23 Oct 2019 11:34 PM
alb can use some more infiltrators

New Inf coming soon... that being said im starting as thrust so I will do my best to avoid SB's
Thu 24 Oct 2019 2:13 PM by Hypno
Sindralor wrote:
Wed 23 Oct 2019 11:34 PM
alb can use some more infiltrators

You trying to say something punk 😭
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