Warden cure nearsight and pr change

Started 15 Sep 2019
by carlwinslow
in Suggestions
I would like this on my warden since friars got it.
Alb gets two classes with nearsight and two classes with cure nearsight thanks to custom buffs by phoenix devs. Why does alb get so much love? Hib and mid could really use an extra cure nearsight as well considering how many earth wizzies/cabbies they face. It would give shamans a little love in their mending line, I have always wanted to run a high mending shaman but nobody does it because its just not good enough.

In addition to this idea I also think giving PR to the secondary support classes warden/shaman/friar could be kind of cool but could maybe be too much, could make for more interesting fights this way though, thoughts?
Sun 15 Sep 2019 11:52 PM by teiloh
Nope. Why do Hibs get 4 healer classes? Why do Mid and Hib get instant interrupts on casters?

Stop whining.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 12:54 AM by kiectred
teiloh wrote:
Sun 15 Sep 2019 11:52 PM
Nope. Why do Hibs get 4 healer classes? Why do Mid and Hib get instant interrupts on casters?

Stop whining.

This but less aggressively.

Balance is not about equality. One realm having 2 cure NS classes is not a simple issue when you consider how widely utilized the secondary heal classes are in other realms vs. friars.

If it was so simple we should be asking why mid gets climb walls on both savage and zerker. Why does every hib caster get a free stun? These are about as relevant to game balance as your original question, which is to say not very much.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 12:54 AM by carlwinslow
You are just butt hurt i criticized minstrels
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:00 AM by carlwinslow
Okay but check this out, alb has some of the most deadly casters in game also pets that can rupt like mofos. So did they really need a second nearsight? It almost makes it crucial to give the other realms second nearsight clear for this reason. Another thing is now they are trying to figure out how to nerf casters, something like this would be a soft nerf and not actually ruin you guys.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:06 AM by kiectred
carlwinslow wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:00 AM
For cure nearsight you might have a point since hibs have more support types but that doesn't answer the fact that wizards didn't really need nearsight/aoe dot etc.

It's simultaneously about having more support types *and* those support types being more widely accepted. It took cure NS on friars (among other small changes) before any were really accepted in groups, and you can trust me on that issue at least. Now, the frequency of cure NS classes utilized in RvR is probably more even than it was before. This is more relevant than simply the number of classes per realm.

The issue of wizards getting all these tools is a different discussion. However, without diving too much into it I think it's fair to say yes, earth wizards have entirely too much utility while other lines are so severely lacking.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:08 AM by carlwinslow
I am glad you agree they shoulda split up some stuff amongst the different wiz builds at least, no clue why they dumped it all into earth lol. Ice wiz anybody?
You may be right about cure nearsight not being neceessary on the secondary supports in the other realms although would feel really good to have on warden! Edited my prior post and changed what I was saying if anybody is wondering why its gone.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:19 AM by Makrist
kiectred wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:06 AM
carlwinslow wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:00 AM
For cure nearsight you might have a point since hibs have more support types but that doesn't answer the fact that wizards didn't really need nearsight/aoe dot etc.

It's simultaneously about having more support types *and* those support types being more widely accepted. It took cure NS on friars (among other small changes) before any were really accepted in groups, and you can trust me on that issue at least. Now, the frequency of cure NS classes utilized in RvR is probably more even than it was before. This is more relevant than simply the number of classes per realm.

The issue of wizards getting all these tools is a different discussion. However, without diving too much into it I think it's fair to say yes, earth wizards have entirely too much utility while other lines are so severely lacking.

I always thought the NS or AE root would have made a solid addition to fire to balance out the three specs for wizards. Its tough though because it may be a bit much to add NS to the bolt/spec DD line. The fact all fire has is raw damage and all Earth has is massive utility is just a bit off. Earth damage can be solid damage, but it doesnt reach the burst potential of fire. I think Ice is in a good spot, but i agree some changes between the other spec lines would be nice.

I honestly couldnt care less about wardens getting NS cure. I doubt it will change their groupability. They need some love like the paladin or friar received. Shaman are fine IMO and they are clearly necessary in RvR based on the fact almost every single group and many small man groups i see run one.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:29 AM by kiectred
Makrist wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:19 AM
kiectred wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:06 AM
carlwinslow wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:00 AM
For cure nearsight you might have a point since hibs have more support types but that doesn't answer the fact that wizards didn't really need nearsight/aoe dot etc.

It's simultaneously about having more support types *and* those support types being more widely accepted. It took cure NS on friars (among other small changes) before any were really accepted in groups, and you can trust me on that issue at least. Now, the frequency of cure NS classes utilized in RvR is probably more even than it was before. This is more relevant than simply the number of classes per realm.

The issue of wizards getting all these tools is a different discussion. However, without diving too much into it I think it's fair to say yes, earth wizards have entirely too much utility while other lines are so severely lacking.

I always thought the NS or AE root would have made a solid addition to fire to balance out the three specs for wizards. Its tough though because it may be a bit much to add NS to the bolt/spec DD line. The fact all fire has is raw damage and all Earth has is massive utility is just a bit off. Earth damage can be solid damage, but it doesnt reach the burst potential of fire. I think Ice is in a good spot, but i agree some changes between the other spec lines would be nice.

I honestly couldnt care less about wardens getting NS cure. I doubt it will change their groupability. They need some love like the paladin or friar received. Shaman are fine IMO and they are clearly necessary in RvR based on the fact almost every single group and many small man groups i see run one.

Agreed with basically everything. Basically, I just don't think wardens deserve cure NS simply because friars got it. Wardens may, according to some people, be underwhelming to play, but they don't struggle like friars did. I would be more open to mildly nerfing friar rejuv line (undoing some of the buffs to my own class) than I would be to buffs to another class which deviates farther from the patch level we're quietly trying to emulate.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:43 AM by Makrist
I just dont think its that much of a game changer. Unless they go 40 Heal spec its a static 6 second cast time that cant be modified with dex or MoA skills. If they want to run a 40 Heal spec warden....go ahead. If they want a secondary spec for a 6 second NS cure i dont think thats game breaking. The fact is most Hib groups are built around a Druid and Bard as their healing base. I just dont see wardens upsetting that just because they get NS cure. I personally just dont care either way. Its fair to say wardens need some love, but as a scout i also understand 98% of the playerbase doesnt give a f..k and it likely wont ever happen.

I would argue there are plenty of changes that were implemented that are more impactful than this that deserved more careful consideration ** cough...weaponskill debuff...cough...assassins...**
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:39 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Makrist wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:43 AM
The fact is most Hib groups are built around a Druid and Bard as their healing base.


LOL
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:41 AM by Makrist
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:39 AM
Makrist wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:43 AM
The fact is most Hib groups are built around a Druid and Bard as their healing base.


LOL

From what ive seen its always two bards or a druid and a bard. Feel free to correct me if im wrong i dont primarily play in Hib. Either way i dont see a warden replacing either.

Feel free to correct or add...
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:44 AM by gotwqqd
Makrist wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:41 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:39 AM
Makrist wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:43 AM
The fact is most Hib groups are built around a Druid and Bard as their healing base.


LOL

From what ive seen its always two bards or a druid and a bard. Feel free to correct me if im wrong i dont primarily play in Hib. Either way i dont see a warden replacing either.

Feel free to correct or add...
Pretty much my observation
Mon 16 Sep 2019 8:12 AM by iamsaitam
Makrist wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:41 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:39 AM
Makrist wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:43 AM
The fact is most Hib groups are built around a Druid and Bard as their healing base.


LOL

From what ive seen its always two bards or a druid and a bard. Feel free to correct me if im wrong i dont primarily play in Hib. Either way i dont see a warden replacing either.

Feel free to correct or add...

I've never been in a group with 2 bards. It's mostly 1 bard and 2 druids and occasionally 1 bard, 1 druid 1 warden.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 11:57 AM by Razur Ur
kiectred wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 12:54 AM
teiloh wrote:
Sun 15 Sep 2019 11:52 PM
Nope. Why do Hibs get 4 healer classes? Why do Mid and Hib get instant interrupts on casters?

Stop whining.

......
If it was so simple we should be asking why mid gets climb walls on both savage and zerker. Why does every hib caster get a free stun? These are about as relevant to game balance as your original question, which is to say not very much.

Every Hib Caster? Is Animist not a Caster?
Mon 16 Sep 2019 12:08 PM by kiectred
Razur Ur wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 11:57 AM
kiectred wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 12:54 AM
teiloh wrote:
Sun 15 Sep 2019 11:52 PM
Nope. Why do Hibs get 4 healer classes? Why do Mid and Hib get instant interrupts on casters?

Stop whining.

......
If it was so simple we should be asking why mid gets climb walls on both savage and zerker. Why does every hib caster get a free stun? These are about as relevant to game balance as your original question, which is to say not very much.

Every Hib Caster? Is Animist not a Caster?

Good point, animist is gimp, give baseline stun plz.

But really, you get the point of the statement and your correction is pretty useless.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:06 PM by Razur Ur
kiectred wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 12:54 AM
Good point, animist is gimp, give baseline stun plz.

But really, you get the point of the statement and your correction is pretty useless.

Why so aggro? was only a simple ask :-) and your claim could not be left that way. Before i forget, baseline stun is not a i-win button! Most time is a root > baseline stun.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:16 PM by Lillebror
Make Cure Disease and cure NS a charge.

Ppl could have more option, not zombie fire ablative and go out and pop DA/legion heal.

More options opens up for more diverse fights
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:26 PM by kiectred
Razur Ur wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:06 PM
kiectred wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 12:54 AM
Good point, animist is gimp, give baseline stun plz.

But really, you get the point of the statement and your correction is pretty useless.

Why so aggro? was only a simple ask :-) and your claim could not be left that way. Before i forget, baseline stun is not a i-win button! Most time is a root > baseline stun.

Sorry, thought you were implying something worse about my arguments by pointing it out.

As for baseline stun not being an I-win, my stance on the main issue would suggest I agree with you already on that. I'm defending it. Hib gets that, alb gets this, mid gets something else. Doesn't have to be equal.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 9:49 PM by teiloh
carlwinslow wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 1:00 AM
Okay but check this out, alb has some of the most deadly casters in game also pets that can rupt like mofos. So did they really need a second nearsight? It almost makes it crucial to give the other realms second nearsight clear for this reason. Another thing is now they are trying to figure out how to nerf casters, something like this would be a soft nerf and not actually ruin you guys.

So a Cabalist/Sorc/Wizard/Theurgist group?

lol

Alb doesn't have 10 group slots. And Elds will always have a higher grade NS than a Cab, and it will NOT be on your Caster MA, and their NS line is on-train.

You have terrible balance suggestions.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 9:52 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Makrist wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:41 AM
From what ive seen its always two bards or a druid and a bard. Feel free to correct me if im wrong i dont primarily play in Hib. Either way i dont see a warden replacing either.


gotwqqd wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 2:44 AM
Pretty much my observation


Sorry, my initial reply was a little snotty.

You're very rarely going to see a Hibernian group with two bards, as Bards are the most-sought-after class in the realm on this server, and even if there were a glut of them most non-zerg groups would run a Mentalist over a second Bard.

Your typical Hibernian roaming group is made up of 1 Bard who rarely, if ever, heals, and 2 Druids, with the possibility of a Warden and / or Mentalist added in. A Bard's role in a group is to interrupt, not the heal, most don't have more than 16 Regrowth, and that's pushing it in a lot of cases.

Maybe zerg groups are different, as my zerg experience is limited, but I can promise you that if every group was running 2 Bards, there wouldn't be so much crying about a lack of the class.
Mon 16 Sep 2019 10:13 PM by Keelia
2 bards is dumb, better off with a ment filling that spot. And honestly a ment can out heal a bard lol. My ment heals for like 300 single target. I don’t think I’ve ever seen our bard heal, he’s too busy interrupting.
Tue 17 Sep 2019 9:19 AM by Razur Ur
You can only run with two bards if he get baseline root how on live server. For second demezzer is menta > bard by the way.
Mon 23 Sep 2019 2:15 PM by hyshash
teiloh wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 9:49 PM
So a Cabalist/Sorc/Wizard/Theurgist group?

lol

Alb doesn't have 10 group slots. And Elds will always have a higher grade NS than a Cab, and it will NOT be on your Caster MA, and their NS line is on-train.

You have terrible balance suggestions.

Cler Cler Sorc Sorc Cab Wizz Theu Mins
And ya im srs ... thats actually our 8vs8 setup and it works fine against anything that ran the past 2-3 months (ran without wizz before)
Mon 23 Sep 2019 7:16 PM by teiloh
hyshash wrote:
Mon 23 Sep 2019 2:15 PM
teiloh wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 9:49 PM
So a Cabalist/Sorc/Wizard/Theurgist group?

lol

Alb doesn't have 10 group slots. And Elds will always have a higher grade NS than a Cab, and it will NOT be on your Caster MA, and their NS line is on-train.

You have terrible balance suggestions.

Cler Cler Sorc Sorc Cab Wizz Theu Mins
And ya im srs ... thats actually our 8vs8 setup and it works fine against anything that ran the past 2-3 months (ran without wizz before)

So it's like Druid Druid Bard Ment Ment/Eld/Ench/Ani Ench Ench Eld except it has

1. 2 casters off the debuff train
2. Less utility
3. Weaker NS
4. NSer who also has to be MA
5. Weaker Disease
6. Weaker Heals by far
7. Fewer perma pets
8. No resist chant
9. Fewer stuns
10. Worse demezz

On the plus side, it has a Theurg - presuming the Theurg isn't being NS/Amnesia spammed, and Bolt Range mez/Spamnesia
Mon 23 Sep 2019 8:07 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Not trying to jump into your argument, but...

1. 2 casters off the debuff train
--- 1 caster off the debuff train, the Theurg; properly specced Wizards are debuffing their own damage just like Cabalists, Enchanters, and Runemasters.

2. Less utility
--- How so? Both teams have stat debuffs, pets, disease, nearsight.

3. Weaker NS
--- Wizards have red nearsight if specced correctly, just like they have red fire debuff.

4. NSer who also has to be MA
--- Wizard is not the MA.

5. Weaker Disease
--- It's all the exact same effect, the only difference is duration, power consumption and chance at landing.

7. Fewer perma pets
--- One of those Druid pets doesn't count, which leaves us with Druid, Ment, Ment, Ench, Ench at the highest end of pets, versus Sorc, Sorc, Cab, Mini -- 5 vs 4, more than made up for by the con of the Sorc and Mini pets plus the Theurg spam.

9. Fewer stuns
--- Oh, a group has fewer stuns than a Hibernia caster group, that never happens!

10. Worse demezz
--- Albs have more demezzers.
Mon 23 Sep 2019 8:20 PM by Andwell
teiloh wrote:
Mon 23 Sep 2019 7:16 PM
So it's like Druid Druid Bard Ment Ment/Eld/Ench/Ani Ench Ench Eld except it has

1. 2 casters off the debuff train
2. Less utility
3. Weaker NS
4. NSer who also has to be MA
5. Weaker Disease
6. Weaker Heals by far
7. Fewer perma pets
8. No resist chant
9. Fewer stuns
10. Worse demezz

On the plus side, it has a Theurg - presuming the Theurg isn't being NS/Amnesia spammed, and Bolt Range mez/Spamnesia

1. More like a secondary train. Still definitely less optimal, but they're utility casters here and nobody is hitting full resists in any case.
2. Maybe? No twf/st but 4 aoe rooters and 2 ichors to reset isn't bad either. No viable bomb ability though, sure.
3. Are there any wizzies without red ns? Tie at worst.
4. Wiz solves that problem for the cabby.
5. If the eld is full light, the diseases are equal. If split/mana, then #3 is bunk. Could be 2 elds I suppose but that's a bit uncommon.
6. Fair.
7. True, but I think theurgists even the field pretty well.
8. True.
9. True, but 3 isn't bad. Worse distribution for sure, however.
10. Not really, with 2 sorcs and a mins.

Overall, sounds like a fun group setup, and the disparity in toolkits doesn't strike me as nearly as severe as implied here.
Mon 23 Sep 2019 9:27 PM by teiloh
The Theurg can be a great help, but if a particular Theurg is a problem they can be locked down quite easily by double dex debuffs + amnesia and/or NS spam, and failing that just AOE nuking the pets.

The Eld disease is on a better resist table (offering a slight advantage) and has a 1.5% lower chance to be resisted. For some reason I was remembering a particular live patch cycle where Eld disease radius was 350 across the board, but maybe I remembered wrong.

My main point was that there is little reason to ask for Warden Cure NS. A group with Red Wizard NS was fielded to validate OP's "two nearsights" claim but I don't think it's much of an advantage at all.

Alb either works with one bad NS or has a Wizard to get equivalent to Eld NS -- only the Wiz can't ride off the Eld train and has to debuff for itself. Unless you're going a Wizard heavy group. Hib prob has the best NS situation on average, with Mid being the worst.
Tue 24 Sep 2019 6:15 AM by Tritri
I personally think Alb compo is the best by far in 8v8

Thankfully there are not many good alb group (f***, Dark Dawn is back to alb, oh bother )
Tue 24 Sep 2019 7:22 AM by Razur Ur
hyshash wrote:
Mon 23 Sep 2019 2:15 PM
teiloh wrote:
Mon 16 Sep 2019 9:49 PM
So a Cabalist/Sorc/Wizard/Theurgist group?

lol

Alb doesn't have 10 group slots. And Elds will always have a higher grade NS than a Cab, and it will NOT be on your Caster MA, and their NS line is on-train.

You have terrible balance suggestions.

Cler Cler Sorc Sorc Cab Wizz Theu Mins
And ya im srs ... thats actually our 8vs8 setup and it works fine against anything that ran the past 2-3 months (ran without wizz before)

Why not Cler Friar Sorc Cab Wizz Theu Theu Mins? Double Theurg and Friar with Resis heat cold matter is nice too ;-)
Tue 24 Sep 2019 1:06 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Razur Ur wrote:
Tue 24 Sep 2019 7:22 AM
Why not Cler Friar Sorc Cab Wizz Theu Theu Mins? Double Theurg and Friar with Resis heat cold matter is nice too ;-)


Friars can't replace Clerics as a primary healer IMO; you give up 3 instant heals, BoF, and PR for resists.

There are ways to fit a Friar into a group without losing a Cleric, but no one on Phoenix is willing to give it a shot.
Tue 24 Sep 2019 5:50 PM by eclipse2k
Total straw man argument. Mids and Hibs already have 2 cure NS in their group because they always run with 2 droods or 2 heals, if Albs are running a Friar, it will be instead of one of the 2 clerics, not in addition, so they also have 2 NS-heals, and if Albs ever have 3 NS-heals their group will be gimped enough to make up for it.
Tue 24 Sep 2019 6:56 PM by Andwell
It's news to me that friars are competing for cleric group slots
Wed 25 Sep 2019 6:42 AM by easytoremember
Dunno what you're on about since so many hib incs on me are 1druid 2bard, even 3man sometimes 2 bards+random
It's so common seeing 2 bards in hib groups I thought it was standard
Wed 25 Sep 2019 7:44 AM by Razur Ur
easytoremember wrote:
Wed 25 Sep 2019 6:42 AM
Dunno what you're on about since so many hib incs on me are 1druid 2bard, even 3man sometimes 2 bards+random
It's so common seeing 2 bards in hib groups I thought it was standard

This was only on Live Server to saw with double bard because of single cast root but on phönix is this only out of despair because give not many drood player.
Thu 26 Sep 2019 6:51 AM by hyshash
teiloh wrote:
Mon 23 Sep 2019 7:16 PM
So it's like Druid Druid Bard Ment Ment/Eld/Ench/Ani Ench Ench Eld except it has

1. 2 casters off the debuff train
2. Less utility
3. Weaker NS
4. NSer who also has to be MA
5. Weaker Disease
6. Weaker Heals by far
7. Fewer perma pets
8. No resist chant
9. Fewer stuns
10. Worse demezz

On the plus side, it has a Theurg - presuming the Theurg isn't being NS/Amnesia spammed, and Bolt Range mez/Spamnesia

First off i wrote what i wrote to show, that there are setups that work and utilize a wiz. Is it the best possible alb setup? No i think not, tbh i think replacing the wiz with an arms would help in some situations by making mistakes more forgiving (being out of position and such)
but we play this because our wiz wants to play that class and likes it
to your points:
1. thats right but we actually have 2 debuff trains body and cold ... (later more)
2. ??? that setup got not even a bit but so much more utility the only thing its lacking is a slam but your hib setup doesnt have that eigther
3. purple ns on the wiz (just fyi hes 49 earth rest cold specc), and grey ns on the cab for more rupts so actually stronger ns?
4. the real ma is the cab so not the one to spam ns
5. you allready corrected that point in a later post
6. well if the ment got enough time to heal too .. ok
7. fewer perma pets - tbh who cares when you got 3 earth pets on every supp with 100 dmg per swing of every earth pet? better that then the 1hit grey drui pet
8. true
9. our clers got enough space and time to stun assist so most of the times it doesnt realy matter you can stun a target only once anyway ...
10. worse demezz? 3 demezzes with em being at the front, middle and back of our positioning compared to your 2 maybe 3

well maybe 1-2 more words would explain why we went for that setup. First off like i allready said our wiz wanted to play wiz so we tried to find a setup that kinda works with wiz. Before we were cler cler mins sorc sorc cab cab theu. the whole idea was to replace a cab with a wiz to loose as little utility as possible and actually we switched the playstyle a bit. the point now is, to have a char in grp that is able to 2 hit a caster with a bit of luck (earth wiz crit bolting onto a self debuffed caster) or just letting the enemys supps kick the first round of instas because a target dropps to 10-20% within 2 secs. This idea let to the situation, that we have a nuketrain with a cab, a body sorc and a mind sorc wich creates constant pressure while the wizz casts ns and actually trys to kill targets on his own or even the theu assisting him on his cold debuff (its 2 baseline nuker on a 50% debuff wich is actually some nice dmg and the theu got time to do a few nukes here and there). combine this with the theu pets wich do realy good dmg over time will build up so much pressure while having so much utility that we win over time.
This setup got some obv flaws and requires us to play quiet good and coordinated and bad incs result in losses more often then not especially with us only running 2 evenings per week at maximum but w/e its fun to have the wiz 2 shotting bds every now and then ... they realy deserve that
Thu 26 Sep 2019 11:15 AM by Keelia
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Tue 24 Sep 2019 1:06 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Tue 24 Sep 2019 7:22 AM
Why not Cler Friar Sorc Cab Wizz Theu Theu Mins? Double Theurg and Friar with Resis heat cold matter is nice too ;-)


Friars can't replace Clerics as a primary healer IMO; you give up 3 instant heals, BoF, and PR for resists.

There are ways to fit a Friar into a group without losing a Cleric, but no one on Phoenix is willing to give it a shot.

We ran Cleric, Friar, Mini, Sorc, Sorc, Cabby, Cabby, Thuerg and were very successful against made 8 mans like Superpug and boohoos mids
Thu 26 Sep 2019 11:46 AM by Razur Ur
Keelia wrote:
Thu 26 Sep 2019 11:15 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Tue 24 Sep 2019 1:06 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Tue 24 Sep 2019 7:22 AM
Why not Cler Friar Sorc Cab Wizz Theu Theu Mins? Double Theurg and Friar with Resis heat cold matter is nice too ;-)


Friars can't replace Clerics as a primary healer IMO; you give up 3 instant heals, BoF, and PR for resists.

There are ways to fit a Friar into a group without losing a Cleric, but no one on Phoenix is willing to give it a shot.

We ran Cleric, Friar, Mini, Sorc, Sorc, Cabby, Cabby, Thuerg and were very successful against made 8 mans like Superpug and boohoos mids

Valheru on EU live server running all time cleri friar minstrel pala theurg sorc cabba merc.
Thu 26 Sep 2019 12:25 PM by Keelia
Razur Ur wrote:
Thu 26 Sep 2019 11:46 AM
Keelia wrote:
Thu 26 Sep 2019 11:15 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Tue 24 Sep 2019 1:06 PM
Friars can't replace Clerics as a primary healer IMO; you give up 3 instant heals, BoF, and PR for resists.

There are ways to fit a Friar into a group without losing a Cleric, but no one on Phoenix is willing to give it a shot.

We ran Cleric, Friar, Mini, Sorc, Sorc, Cabby, Cabby, Thuerg and were very successful against made 8 mans like Superpug and boohoos mids

Valheru on EU live server running all time cleri friar minstrel pala theurg sorc cabba merc.

It can be done, our friar was good as hell though, RIP Marty. So if you’re gonna try it you need a well played friar who knows when he needs to sit back and heal and when he can roll in with the mini. We would end after about 2-3 hours of RvR and he’d always be top 5 heals. We also ran rejuv on the cleric with high Mastery of Arcane so we had 2 3s cure NSs so our NSs we’re cured almost instantly.
Thu 26 Sep 2019 2:17 PM by hyshash
Keelia wrote:
Thu 26 Sep 2019 12:25 PM
It can be done, our friar was good as hell though, RIP Marty. So if you’re gonna try it you need a well played friar who knows when he needs to sit back and heal and when he can roll in with the mini. We would end after about 2-3 hours of RvR and he’d always be top 5 heals. We also ran rejuv on the cleric with high Mastery of Arcane so we had 2 3s cure NSs so our NSs we’re cured almost instantly.

Sure you can make a friar work, just like a wiz. Its all about how much the grp is willing to sacrifice and weather the enemy environment is worth the tradeoff. If there are many competitive hib grps with a cast assist and your running without a peeler you could replace one cler with a friar. Atm the situation at eu pt isnt realy suitable for an friar imo. Not enough hib grps running full caster. So most of the time a 2nd cler resulting in better buffs and the heal/ra advantage over a friar is just better.
Well we are running 1-2 days per week so maybe its different the other days dunno.
Thu 26 Sep 2019 2:29 PM by Keelia
hyshash wrote:
Thu 26 Sep 2019 2:17 PM
Keelia wrote:
Thu 26 Sep 2019 12:25 PM
It can be done, our friar was good as hell though, RIP Marty. So if you’re gonna try it you need a well played friar who knows when he needs to sit back and heal and when he can roll in with the mini. We would end after about 2-3 hours of RvR and he’d always be top 5 heals. We also ran rejuv on the cleric with high Mastery of Arcane so we had 2 3s cure NSs so our NSs we’re cured almost instantly.

Sure you can make a friar work, just like a wiz. Its all about how much the grp is willing to sacrifice and weather the enemy environment is worth the tradeoff. If there are many competitive hib grps with a cast assist and your running without a peeler you could replace one cler with a friar. Atm the situation at eu pt isnt realy suitable for an friar imo. Not enough hib grps running full caster. So most of the time a 2nd cler resulting in better buffs and the heal/ra advantage over a friar is just better.
Well we are running 1-2 days per week so maybe its different the other days dunno.

We ran NA which right now you’d win with a groups of 7 clerics and a minstrel cause it’s so dead
Mon 30 Sep 2019 9:14 PM by teiloh
hyshash wrote:
Thu 26 Sep 2019 6:51 AM
First off i wrote what i wrote to show, that there are setups that work and utilize a wiz. Is it the best possible alb setup? No i think not, tbh i think replacing the wiz with an arms would help in some situations by making mistakes more forgiving (being out of position and such)
but we play this because our wiz wants to play that class and likes it
to your points:
1. thats right but we actually have 2 debuff trains body and cold ... (later more)
2. ??? that setup got not even a bit but so much more utility the only thing its lacking is a slam but your hib setup doesnt have that eigther
3. purple ns on the wiz (just fyi hes 49 earth rest cold specc), and grey ns on the cab for more rupts so actually stronger ns?
4. the real ma is the cab so not the one to spam ns
5. you allready corrected that point in a later post
6. well if the ment got enough time to heal too .. ok
7. fewer perma pets - tbh who cares when you got 3 earth pets on every supp with 100 dmg per swing of every earth pet? better that then the 1hit grey drui pet
8. true
9. our clers got enough space and time to stun assist so most of the times it doesnt realy matter you can stun a target only once anyway ...
10. worse demezz? 3 demezzes with em being at the front, middle and back of our positioning compared to your 2 maybe 3

It "works" but there are a lot of sacrifices involved.
1. Having two debuff trains is not a good thing, it's best to have all 4-5 casters on the same train. Not only that but a Wiz going Earth/Ice sacrifices the bolts.
2. There's pet snare, aoe dehaste, dps debuff (including the interrupt)
6. There's a Ment or 2 + three Nats
7. Two ment two chanter pets, then some grey druid pets all of which are base buffed because the Hib group has three buffers. The Theurg will struggle to cast if you really want to make it hard for them, with two Chanters spamming instant interrupt with a 5s timer.
9. Clerics will need to be far up to stun which sacrifices positioning and weakens your healing even further
10. It's 2-3 demezzers, 1-2 with pulse charm pets and Luri caster dex bonus.

Not to mention that the Hib group is harder to target and has much better AOE as a bonus.

Just to be clear the main point is that there is no justification for giving Wardens a Cure NS. Friars needed buffs, Wardens not so much.
Tue 1 Oct 2019 8:09 PM by Enyore
PR, no.

Cure NS - why not? why not add it for all heal classes who spend 40 points in reg/rej/mend ... there is no harm in it,

Friar, already have it.
Shaman, cool addition and possible to open the meta a bit.
Warden, would make them something else that TWF bots.
Bard, not relevant as 40 reg would be rubbish with the points they have.

I would go even further and say lets spice it and add a group cure disease at 44 reg/rej/mend ... would open up the specs and combinations a lot more.
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