Re: Call to buff Archers!

#111
Tavi wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:37 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU
Here you can see the dmg as it should be. Especially the TS kills of other stealther with resis.

Melee needs no buffs but bow needs love. You don't do any damage.
Only a high rr archer should be able to kill an assassin in melee.

Now you took the bow damage away and created a gimp class with no specialty. Maybe it was done to balance hunter/ranger but scouts are a joke now.

Re: Call to buff Archers!

#113
Pao wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:28 pm
Tavi wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:37 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU
Here you can see the dmg as it should be. Especially the TS kills of other stealther with resis.

Melee needs no buffs but bow needs love. You don't do any damage.
Only a high rr archer should be able to kill an assassin in melee.

Now you took the bow damage away and created a gimp class with no specialty. Maybe it was done to balance hunter/ranger but scouts are a joke now.
How can anyone watch that video and then think: That's how it should be Oo

I am not against making bow stronger btw. it really seems as if there is a problem, but the video shows an extremely OP and broken state Bow-dmg and if we had those numbers here the game would revolve around archers, and archers only. with that damage 5-6scouts could easily kill fullgrps unless their healers have the finger on grp-instant constantly while roaming...

Re: Call to buff Archers!

#114
Dominus wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:43 pm
Nice video. That's how I remember archer damage. Was this video on or about 1.65? Crazy that our archers bow shots hit so low.
This is during the brief era where there was TOA and OF. And I'm all for ungimping archery, but the damage you see there was never REALISTIC damage. This is probably taken during the era where people would see an uber TOA-rog (WOW, 12% heal-bonus, don't care I loose 9% resists to Thrust) and equip it, meaning they had a gimped resist and gimped AF. That and maybe 3 relics give this damage. You can also see most of it is taken while he's still levelling artifacts, so it is safe to assume enemies ran gimped stuff too. Fun to see, but not realistic.

In my opinion the biggest problems with archery on Phoenix are :

a) Reliably delivering the damage. There are too many counters to archery. You can flat-out miss, you can get evaded, you can get blocked and you can get blade-turned.

b) Insufficient reason to spec higher Archery. Speccing higher Archery than 35~ doesn't really do much for damage nor does it do anything for gaining abilities. Rapid Fire 2 isn't better than Rapid Fire 1 from a practical point-of-view and Penetrating Shot only penetrates PBT and not where it would really matter: On a caster his self-BT.

I don't think there is a serious problem with absolute damage-numbers for Archery on Phoenix currently. The problem is the many counters to archery and the lack of scaling above (near) composite-spec.
Playing a RR7 Shadowblade and a few others in all 3 realms...
Shadowblade Movie I
Shadowblade Movie II

Re: Call to buff Archers!

#115
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:11 am
You're taking the "firing out" that I said a little too literally. You are correct that it is an instantaneous pulse. However the instantaneous pulse emanates from a position that you are constantly moving away from if you are moving forward, hence the Doppler effect. That's pretty much it.
If such a pulse-system would exists (e.g. some sort of tick where the "detection routine" is being run) it makes very little sense to do this at another position then your current position (why would you do that, it would just make the entire process more complex).

In any case I think even if such an update/pulse system would be used on Phoenix the tick-speed is so high that there is no practical reason to assume such a system and I would just stick to the range given by various tests.

Calling it a "doppler-effect" in any case makes my brain hurt :)
Playing a RR7 Shadowblade and a few others in all 3 realms...
Shadowblade Movie I
Shadowblade Movie II

Re: Call to buff Archers!

#116
Call it what you want and explain it how you want, but it is true that on Live and on Phoenix it is easier to see your stealthed opponent before they see you if you are not moving and they are.

Re: Call to buff Archers!

#117
Sepplord wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:04 pm

How can anyone watch that video and then think: That's how it should be Oo

I am not against making bow stronger btw. it really seems as if there is a problem, but the video shows an extremely OP and broken state Bow-dmg and if we had those numbers here the game would revolve around archers, and archers only. with that damage 5-6scouts could easily kill fullgrps unless their healers have the finger on grp-instant constantly while roaming...
More bow damage will just make the archers more ganker-like. They'll kill people in less time, with subsequently less counterplay available to enemies--the video shows the worst-case of this, and I agree that is strongly undesirable.

This thread has illustrated people want different things for the archer. For example:
1) Kill assassins more
2) Able to attack tanks more effectively
3) Able to kill people faster
4) More reason to spec high bow (vague as to what is generally wanted here from a higher spec--more damage? more defense penetration? new abilities?)

#1 and #2 seems like a re-imagining of the archer by expanding on their classical niche, #3 runs into problems with creating a stronger ganker playstyle, and #4 hasn't been clearly drawn out by most commenters.

There's little agreement on what niche the archer should inhabit, or how effective it should be vs various targets, so its no surprise that this topic hasn't progressed very deeply.

Re: Call to buff Archers!

#118
Dimir wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:29 pm
Call it what you want and explain it how you want, but it is true that on Live and on Phoenix it is easier to see your stealthed opponent before they see you if you are not moving and they are.
Any proof on that claim? Or just dismissing everyones arguments and simply stating "this is true though" without any Evidence?

Logical Explanations are no proof....but they are vastly superior to nothing at all

Re: Call to buff Archers!

#119
Isavyr wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:44 pm
Sepplord wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:04 pm

How can anyone watch that video and then think: That's how it should be Oo

I am not against making bow stronger btw. it really seems as if there is a problem, but the video shows an extremely OP and broken state Bow-dmg and if we had those numbers here the game would revolve around archers, and archers only. with that damage 5-6scouts could easily kill fullgrps unless their healers have the finger on grp-instant constantly while roaming...
More bow damage will just make the archers more ganker-like. They'll kill people in less time, with subsequently less counterplay available to enemies--the video shows the worst-case of this, and I agree that is strongly undesirable.

This thread has illustrated people want different things for the archer. For example:
1) Kill assassins more
2) Able to attack tanks more effectively
3) Able to kill people faster
4) More reason to spec high bow (vague as to what is generally wanted here from a higher spec--more damage? more defense penetration? new abilities?)

#1 and #2 seems like a re-imagining of the archer by expanding on their classical niche, #3 runs into problems with creating a stronger ganker playstyle, and #4 hasn't been clearly drawn out by most commenters.

There's little agreement on what niche the archer should inhabit, or how effective it should be vs various targets, so its no surprise that this topic hasn't progressed very deeply.
I kinda agree with your assessment. As for point #4 (which i think is also important) you could add utility (like they did on live), scale bow damage better (lower damage with lower (<35) spec, higher when >35 spec compared to it is now) , make penetrating arrow pierce self-BT (for example 50% at 40 spec, 75% at 50 spec), reduced block/evade-rate on higher bow spec, uninterruptable shots at reduced damage etc etc.

Kill assassins and tanks more is the result of broken archery on casters. Archers want to be viable and since it is not really viable vs casters they are looking for other targets. Archery should be a caster-counter but with self-BT not being pierced the oomph is missing on casters and casters survive long enough to be able to quickcast to win interrupt war / send pet / what not. Because archers quickly loose initiative vs casters it is counter-productive to start from range as, once you're interrupted, you have no way to quickly close the gap. Uninterruptable shots (at the cost of damage) could be a way to regain initiative partially; which should then be given out at higher Archery-spec.
Playing a RR7 Shadowblade and a few others in all 3 realms...
Shadowblade Movie I
Shadowblade Movie II

Re: Call to buff Archers!

#120
Sepplord wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:50 pm
Dimir wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:29 pm
Call it what you want and explain it how you want, but it is true that on Live and on Phoenix it is easier to see your stealthed opponent before they see you if you are not moving and they are.
Any proof on that claim? Or just dismissing everyones arguments and simply stating "this is true though" without any Evidence?

Logical Explanations are no proof....but they are vastly superior to nothing at all
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be dismissive, I just felt everyone was getting to hung up on the wording and not on the experience. Evidence wise, just playing on Phoenix seems to support it. I might do some tests to confirm that here, I can't do that test on Live though. Should be easy enough to get 2 people in voice, stealthed with equal stealth and repeatedly test player A moving toward player B. Player A moves until they see player B. Player B notes how long they see player A moving before player B stops. Do that 10 times and see if there is a pattern or if it feels to random. Would be very interesting to test 1 player in EU and 1 player in NA and then with both in EU and both in NA to see if how that plays out.