The Drunken Ranger’s Guide to Drunken Rangery

Started 12 Nov 2018
by Cadebrennus
in Hibernia
The Drunken Ranger’s Guide to Drunken Rangery

Due to the overwhelming need and requests for my Ranger Guide, I am reposting it. However keep in mind that Archers are in a much, much different state now than the first half of beta. Physical damage is not nearly as effective as magic/poison damage, so as a class that relies entirely on physical damage, Rangers and other Archers are facing an uphill battle. Personally, I will be playing a Nightshade because their ranged DPS (up to 1500) should be on par or better than an Archer’s ranged DPS, dependent on target AF/ABS (not per hit, per second, hence Damage Per Second), not to mention that Envenom boosted Melee blows regular Melee out of the water. Play the class if you love it, but you have been forewarned.

Introduction
Slainte! Love me, hate me, or indifferent towards me, some of you know me as Cadebrennus The Drunken Ranger. I’ve played many different specs and iterations over the years since Classic all the way through TOA which promptly caused me to quit after purchasing it. I came back to DAOC in 2012 when I was serving in Afghanistan, and was lucky enough to have some tech guys that hooked us up with satellite internet on our mountaintop FOB (Forward Operating Base) that was decent enough to PvE with when we came back in from outside the wire. I went back to the Mercenary (which was my first 50, hence the knowledge about Dual Wielding) for a while, but returned to the Ranger whose versatility suited me best, playing live until 2016. I left live in August 2016, being personally responsible for the Archer melee nerf, jumped on Uthgard and soloed a Ranger to 50, then promptly quit. I never thought I was going to play DAOC again until I discovered Phoenix Beta. While I do not agree with many changes to the server (particularly the heavy-handed physical damage nerf which includes Melee and Archery) I hope this server lasts a long time. Typically I spend more time answering questions than I do actually playing, so I’ve decided to compile some of the typical questions and answers into a guide. This is my first formal guide, so take it with a grain of salt. If there’s something that doesn’t seem accurate, then test it! Figure out what is off, then let’s update the guide. This is a living guide. It isn’t the Ten Commandments etched into stone tablets, and neither should it be taken as seriously as that or Hammurabi’s Stele. FYI I’m not going to get into races or starting stats because that has been covered in depth elsewhere. The base rule is go Celt if heavy in Blades, Luri/Elf (Luri is a bit ahead of Elf though) if Sniper or Pierce spec. In the end, the differences aren’t major so go with a character you can stand looking at and have fun with.
Archery
Classic Archery
Note: The terms Archery, Recurve Bow, and Bow will probably be used interchangeably throughout this document.

It isn’t like live, but then that’s the reason we’re here, right? Because it’s not like live. We’re back to classic Archery. The way classic Archery works is that it is a ranged two-hand melee attack that can be interrupted. Wait, where are you going? Hear me out. This is how the original code was written. When many of the Mythic programmers left (post EA buyout of Mythic) the new programmers couldn’t understand the original Archery code so they took a shortcut and just made it like magic. Ta da! This introduced all sorts of problems such as no more height advantage/disadvantage to Archery with the new code on live, two line of sight checks instead of one, etc. So, we’re back to the old code and yes, you do get to shoot a bit farther when you have a height advantage on your opponent and you can’t shoot as far at a target that has the height advantage of you, and you only need one line of sight check that occurs when you release your shot.

Where did all of my cool shots from live go? They didn’t go anywhere, they just didn’t exist in classic Archery. What you have available is;

Critshot (see patch notes to see criteria for a critshot, longer drawtime. hit the Critshot button once, use Standard Shot key to set automatic release and reload)
Penetrating arrow (passive, gives you a specified chance to penetrate Bladeturn)
Rapid Fire (toggle. super important, which is why I usually recommend minimum 35 bow, regardless of spec)
Standard Shot (use at regular speed or Rapid Fire Speed)
Caveat: Don’t expect to get big numbers out of Archery. AF was heavily boosted on Phoenix which inversely affects the effectiveness of Melee and Archery. On top of that, the cloth wearers will almost always have Bladeturn or Pulsing Bladeturn, so best of luck with that. If the target is wearing armor then they will more than likely have a shield handy. Remember, even an unspecced shield will block your arrows (percentage being dependent on what the code currently is.)
Damage Add
Speaking of ranged melee, you will notice that the damage add (for Rangers PF and all others casted or /use damage adds) scale up and down with how fast you are actually firing, and not based on the speed of the bow. You will find the same thing with melee weapons as well. This is why your damage add shrinks when you switch to Rapid Fire. No worries, you are still doing the actual damage per second (DPS) listed on the damage add spell/use/whatever.
Bow Speed and why it is important
Now that we’re talking about bow speeds, everyone wants to grab the slowest bow possible for the “uberest” damage, and that’s always the correct answer, right? Wrong. Sometimes you want to get that huge critshot along with a few huge follow-up shots, but that should only happen when you are confident you have no chance of being interrupted and you can keep the enemy in your sights and in your range. That leads us to bow speed and Rapid Fire. If your Quickness and your bow speed don’t equal a 1.5 second draw time, you are fodder for Casters. They will outcast your bow speed and turn you into flaming spot on the grass. You need to make sure that you are equipping a bow that combined with your buffed Quickness allows you to hit cap speed on your bow (Mastery of Archery helps too) that can allow you to keep up with Casters casting at or near cast speed cap (1.5 if I remember correctly), who will certainly be trying to beat you in the speed game.
Bow Switching
Too complicated to switch bows? Not to worry, the nice people who have developed Phoenix have implemented wonderful QOL (Quality Of Life) updates to the 1.65 environment such as commands to bag swap weapons including ranged weapons.

\switch range 1

This command will switch out a bow from the first slot of your first inventory bag with the bow that you currently have equipped. Because I like to have all of my stuff in the last bag (due to autoloot) I keep my swappable weapons in the last bag. Each slot continues to the next in numerical order. Bag 5 starts at slot 33. I have melee weapons in slots 33, 34, and 35, leaving slot 36 for a 5.5 speed bow, which sees far less use than the 5.2 speed bow I usually have equipped to more easily reach the 1.5 speed cap mentioned earlier. My macro is thus:

\switch range 36
Arrows
Arrow Types
Using your (usually) primary weapon, you as an Archer get to do something no other physical damage class can do without a significant investment of skill points: you can change your damage type at will. This is important because if you are knowledgeable enough you can always have a bonus to the armor type of the target, except cloth, which is neutral to all damage types. These are the top tier arrows you will be using:

Keen footed flight broadhead arrows (slash damage)
Blunt footed flight broadhead arrows (blunt damage, duh)
Barbed footed flight broadhead arrows (thrust damage)

For information on armor types, visit this link;
http://daoc.warlordcentral.com/?module=general&action=resists


The Quiver
Larian la Quella, a fellow Hibbie from Guinevere was more than a fellow DAOC Ranger enthusiast and lone champion for Elf Rangers: he was also the Ranger Team Lead for years. During his time as a TL he fought hard to get Archers a quiver. Of course now on live you don’t need a quiver because there Archery is magic. Yuck. Luckily we are (mostly) on the classic rule set so that means the quiver is useful again, yay! Depending on your UI the quiver may be available as a button on your group window, or you can just type;

/quiver

Once you have the quiver window open place it somewhere unobtrusive yet handy. Drop your arrow stacks into the quiver and you’re good to go. Arrow selection can happen in one of three ways in the quiver

1. You mouse-click the stack you want to fire from
2. You use the hotkey that you created from an arrow stack
3. An arrow stack runs out and the game auto-selects the very next arrow stack

Wait, hotkey? Yes. You create an arrow stack hotkey by shift+left click dragging the arrow icon that is in the quiver which you can then place on a hotbar.

One warning about the quiver: if you click the same stack twice it will deselect your arrows and give you the error message “You must select a quiver slot to draw from!” Sometimes you can accidentally double click a stack leaving you with no arrows to fire with. A workaround is to have a backup stack of arrows somewhere in your inventory. If all arrow stacks are unselected in the quiver, the arrow selection will default to your bags.
Melee
There are a few components to melee. They of course include the weapon lines, but in my opinion, it also includes Pathfinding, which can very nicely complement Ranger melee. Keep in mind that Melee is now not nearly as effective as Archery. In addition, Any class that has Shouts (insta-DDs) or Poisons will definitely outdamage you regardless of your melee or PF spec.
Growth Rates
I talk a lot about Growth Rates. To see what they have been listed at, you can see them in Charplan or you can see them at this site:
http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/realm_style_growths.html
http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/hibernia_styles.html

See Growth Rates explained at this site:
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/wyrd---growth-rates

Keep in mind that Growth Rates may or may not have been altered for the Phoenix server.
Blades
Blades is my favorite. I run Blades on my Ranger for two reasons:
1. It has Spectrum Blade. More on that in a moment.
2. It has a damage bonus vs Mid leather and is Neutral to all Albs, from plate wearing Armsmen to leather wearing Infiltrators.
The Bad About Blades
Blades sucks against Mid chain mail. You’re going to be in a world of hurt if you try to fight anything in chainmail. On the positive side if they’re using Slash weapons which is the most likely given the Axes and Swords line, they will also have a damage penalty against you. However, if they are swinging Hammers, they’re going to crack you open like a crab dinner.
Spectrum Blade
One of the best styles in the game in a base style line. Blades, Pierce, and Crush are called Base styles, in that they can coexist with advanced styles such as Celtic Dual (or in Alb, Dual Wield and Thrust/Slash/Blunt). Spectrum Blade is second in a chain that starts with an anytime style (Fire Blade), so in essence it is an anytime two-part chain that debuffs your opponent’s attack speed by 30% for 20 seconds. This means that yes their individual hits will hit harder, but you will have reduced by 30% their chances to a) land procs on you, and b) get style effects on you. Spectrum Blade also has a nice Medium Defense bonus, but I guess that’s there to make up for Fire Blade’s crappy Defense penalty. Spectrum Blade also has a respectable Growth Rate (GR, aka the Damage Bonus shown in the Damage tooltip).
Pierce
Good for only two reasons:

1. You are 100% an assist Ranger working in a visi group and you need that Pierce/Thrust bonus versus chainmail. You never need to have a bonus versus Mid leather. An unlikely scenario, because I run in visi groups, but I also solo and smallman, so I need the versatility of Blades. However, I’m also at a disadvantage to any Mid chain-wearing class.
2. You are Sniper specced and don’t have many points in melee, so you need as much Weapon Skill (WS) as possible. Because Dexterity and Quickness go up higher than Strength as Rangers level, you will naturally have more Weapon Skill with a Pierce weapon. The Pierce advantage is that a Ranger with Pierce will have approximately 40 more WS when using Pierce Styles over Blades styles.


Celtic Dual
Absolutely 100% necessary, for at least 18 points in Celtic Dual (CD). This gives you the famous Side Stun. It also gives you the Rear Snare (also called a Hinder, they’re interchangeable terms.) However, at only 18 CD you will have a lower chance to swing your offhand weapon. How Celtic Dual (and Dual Wield) work is the higher your spec in CD or DW, the higher your chance to swing your offhand weapon. However, your offhand swing is ALWAYS an unstyled swing, so it will miss a lot more than styled swings compared to your main hand. The bonus though is that you have a better chance to have weapon procs fired off than single or two-handed weapons because you’re swinging two weapons. The downside is that you are also giving your opponent more chances to fire off defensive procs or Damage Shields.
I like to have 29 Celtic Dual minimum since I see a fair bit of melee, which increases my offhand swing chance and also gives me a nice follow-up to the Side Stun. On a melee heavy Ranger, I don’t spec 50 Celtic Dual because the line simply isn’t as good as Albion’s Dual Wield, which I highly recommend speccing to 50 on if you play a Mercenary. On Alb I recommend Wyrd Spec (look it up), but on Hib I recommend 50 Base weapon (Blades/Pierce/Blunt) in order to take advantage of better styles in those lines, and 29+ Celtic Dual because there are only two styles worth speccing for, and the last one is at 29. You will have a higher offhand swing rate with 50 Celtic Dual vs 29 Celtic Dual, but it just isn’t worth the points to me.
Swing Speed
First off, allow me to dispel the myth that you swing your weapon at your current swing speed. Stay with me here. Do you notice how when you pull out your weapon and take a swing with it that for the initial hit, there is no delay? That’s because your swing speed before you attack is 0. That’s right, zero. That’s why your first swing comes out instantly. You will always have your current weapon swing at the speed of your last weapon swing speed. A better term for it would probably be called weapon delay. So if I first swing with a weighted longsword (4.2 speed) there is no delay. Then I immediately swap to a fast weapon in the mainhand, such as a falcata (2.7 if I remember correctly) then the falcata’s first swing will happen at 4.2 speed (minus modifiers for quickness and haste), but the damage modifiers will be acting on a 2.7 speed weapon, not a 4.2, because I’m actually swinging a falcata this swing, not a weighted longsword. If I then switch back to a weighted longsword for the next swing, the delay between the falcata and the swing of the weighted longsword is 2.7 (minus the modifiers of course), but the damage modifiers are for a 4.2 speed weapon (and modifiers). This is why the best slam tanks back on classic always slammed with a small shield then whipped out that polearm. Because this is a classic-lite server, weapon delay means something again, as there is no TOA and post-TOA madness to allow everyone to swing 4.2+ speed weapons and still hit the cap speed of 1.5 seconds.
Swing speed while dual wielding (and dual wielding secrets)
So the common knowledge is that your main hand weapon and your offhand weapon will average out the swing speed before other swing speed calculations. This is why since launch most people have gone with a slow main hand weapon and the fastest offhand weapon they can find. This is 100% correct, except when it’s not. Here’s why (and keep in mind that Quickness and Haste make you swing faster and will modify the delve swing speed):

Swinging unstyled (autoattack), one of three things happen:
1. Only your main hand swings. The following delay is whatever the mainhand speed is
2. Only your offhand swings. The following delay is whatever the offhand speed is
3. Both hands swing. The following delay is whatever the average of the mainhand and offhand swing speeds are.


Dual Wielding Secrets
This is where the good stuff is. Yes, this claim has been extensively tested. If you don’t believe it rack up some log time on the dummies and see for yourself. This is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. When you use a style, whether it is Celtic Dual or Blades or Pierce, you will always swing at the mainhand speed, regardless of whether or not your offhand swings too. ALWAYS. You will never ever attack with the offhand by itself with a styled swing. The speeds of both weapons will never average each other out. So, if you have enough endurance to do nothing but styled swings, then choose a main hand weapon whose speed suits you (more on that later), and always go with the slowest offhand you can find. Why? A slower offhand will have higher DPS because now, ITS SWING SPEED DOES NOT MATTER. That also goes for your Damage Add. The Damage add is tied to the potential delay (speed) of your weapon, so to crank up that Damage Add number, you need a slower weapon. And if the weapon is going to be swinging at the speed of the mainhand weapon regardless of everything else, why not go for the bigger number? So, my setup weapon-wise is thus:

R-Hand slot - A weapon that will (hopefully) get me to 1.5 swing speed cap after Quickness and Haste have been calculated for. I do this when I’m not concerned about single or multiple big hits, and more concerned with getting the right style effects on my target (stuns, hinders, ASR-Attack Speed Reducers, etc.)
L-Hand slot - The slowest offhand weapon I can find. Period. This is why I miss (for the speed) Dragonsworn weapons (even though they were hideous) and the OP’ed katana-looking swords from TOA or Dragons or whatever that were 4.1 speed.
2-Hand slot - The slowest mainhand weapon I can find. Right now that’s a weighted longsword and some dropped weapons. I use this when bigger hits matter more than style effects, though I’m still dropping style effects, albeit at a slower speed than with the weapon in the R-Hand slot.
Stealth
This is a point of contention for me. Everyone automatically assumes that you need 50 composite stealth as a stealther. Makes sense right? It absolutely does, if you need to be right on top of your target in order to execute your alpha strike, like Perforate Artery or Backstab II. Archers are primarily a ranged class. That means that your Alpha Strike occurs from range. That also means that you don’t necessarily need 50 composite stealth to successfully execute your Alpha Strike (Critshot.) But what about Assassins finding you when you’re stealthed? Don’t you need 50 composite stealth to hide from them? The answer is no. They are going to find you anyways because of two primary reasons

1. They have a greater detection range than you do
2. You’re standing like a moron in the middle of an open area or in an obvious spot while stealthed (like a choke point)

Have you ever seen war movies? Movies with snipers in them? Or maybe even been to war or at least actually trained for it? What’s the one thing you notice, despite everyone wearing camouflage? Played paintball or airsoft? Anything? They seek cover. Every single time. Whether they’re having a smoke, eating chow, or lining up an ambush or a sniper kill, they have some sort of cover. Do the same damn thing. Use the terrain (trees, tall grass, aka soft cover in the game) or structures (buildings, walls, crenelations, aka hard cover) to compliment your stealth spec, rather than relying on it 100% like Harry Potter’s invisibility cloak. If you can’t get 50 composite stealth with a spec you really want to try, don’t worry about it, drop a few points from stealth, and be smarter about HOW you hide. My philosophy on stealth is that it is worth every single point you put into it, right up until you are unstealthed. Once you are unstealthed and attacking (ranged or melee) every single point you have in stealth is now useless. Try to find a balance between the two states (stealth and unstealthed).
Pathfinding
One may think that Pathfinding (PF) is pretty useless on a server with potions/charges, or even on a live server with buffbots. I completely disagree. In my opinion, 36 PF is a sweet spot for spec points, particularly on a server like Phoenix. 36 PF gets you the yellow Damage Add for 7.3 DPS, yellow speed shout for 180% for 45 seconds, yellow Spec 50 Armor Factor Buff, blue Base Strength Buff (better than pots), and blue Spec Dexterity/Quickness Buff (better than pots, but not better than charges). If you plan on any melee but can’t afford to go 36 PF with the planned spec, the next lowest spec in PF I would recommend is 31 PF, for the yellow Spec 50 Armor Factor Buff. On any spec the absolutely lowest, bottom of the barrel PF spec I would recommend is 27 PF, so you at least get the 5.4 DPS Damage Add. So, there are charges you could use for a Damage Add, and it’s 11.3, which is really nice, but it only last 60 seconds, knocks you out of stealth, and overwrites your casted Damage Add, which means that once it’s gone, you have no Damage Add at all. How do Damage Adds work? The DPS (Damage Per Second) listed is quite literal. You take the current speed you are firing a bow at or swinging a weapon at (not the listed speed) and multiply that by your damage add. However, there is some serious variance that might be a bug or might be part of the game as it exists. I don’t know yet but I will find out. Back to the speed and Damage Add’s relationship with speed. For example, I usually have a 5.2 speed bow for general use, I have Mastery of Archery II, and a final buffed Quickness (Dex/Qui charge) of 233. This puts me at 3.1 seconds draw time, which multiplied by 7.3 should put me at an average of 22 additional damage per shot. When I am Rapid Firing I am shooting at cap speed, 1.5 seconds draw time for each shot, which puts me at an average of an additional 11 damage per shot. The same goes for melee. The longer each swing, the more the Damage Add per swing, and the faster the swing, the less the Damage Add per swing.
Tactics
Don’t be food for Assassins
As mentioned above, don’t stand out in the open trusting only in your invisibility button, because Assassins will find you. Then they will Perf you. Then you will /release. Also, play to your spec. If you are not heavily invested in melee, don’t expect to go toe-to-toe with an Assassin, especially if they open with Perf or Backstab. If you are Sniper spec, only melee long enough to a) get a stun or b) get a snare/hinder on them, then create distance. Don’t stand next to them trying to get some shots off while they are stunned. You will be interrupted for at least as long as the delay of their last weapon swing. Just get distance. If you are melee spec or hybrid and they didn’t get a Perf or Backstab, then duke it out and see how you do. You’ll learn, win or lose, what to do next time (such as continue to duke it out or get distance.)
Use similar tools to Assassins. You have Damage over Time (DoT) proc weapons, and you have Dex/Qui debuff proc weapons. You also have charges you can use, available at your friendly alchemist, such as Str/Con debuffs or Dex/Qui debuffs. Just remember to pay attention to your buff charge rotation because there is a timer limit to how often you can use charges.
If you have a hunting partner, such as another Ranger, SPREAD OUT. Do not be clumped up where the Assassin (or worse, his mezzing Minstrel friend) can quickly pick you off and you lose your range advantage. Think about your bow, think about the distance you have, and spread out. Keep in communication about your locations because this server does not have the feature to see all stealthed groupmates. If an Assassin (or team of Assassins) can’t get to all of you quickly, then you have more time to fill them with arrows. And if you feel like you must stealthzerg, don’t be a weenie and jump solos or seriously outnumber duos. It’s just a dick move and you will become the target of a stealth-busting party, and end up becoming free RPs until you break up the stealthzerg or log.
Don’t act like a moron around Visis (friendly and unfriendly)
Unfriendly Visis
I’ve said it multiple times. Do not stand in the open while stealthed. Do not stand in choke points while stealthed. Do not stand in obvious areas while stealthed. If you think that stealth is complete immunity to discovery, you are wrong. You will be found if you act like a moron. Be smart, and remember you do not even need 50 composite stealth if you are smarter than your opponents. I play with 26 composite stealth at RR6 (10 points in stealth) and I get “popped” out of stealth by Visis far less often than people who run with 50 composite stealth. I don’t even bother to hide from Assassins unless I’m using terrain as noted above in the Stealth section.
Friendly Visis
BE USEFUL. If you are part of a battle involving Visible (Visis) classes, don’t hang out and be stealthed most of the time because you’re afraid to die. It’s a video game. You will not actually die. Unstealth and shoot something. Melee something if it’s close to you. BE USEFUL. There is nothing worse than running in a Visi group, being outnumbered by the enemy, and knowing that the 4+ stealthers nearby could have evened the odds but they did not unstealth because they were afraid to. Shoot your damn bow. Side stun something. Snare/hinder someone. Rapid Fire the hell out of the enemy casters to prevent them from casting. /assist targets, whether they are Melee or Casters. BE USEFUL.
Specs
Not all of these specs have been tested by me on Phoenix, so take the spec advice with a grain of salt, test them out yourselves, and give some input. They are all assuming RR5 in the beta environment. There will be some adjustments necessary at lower and higher Realm Rank. Despite railing on about Stealth, I know that most people can’t fathom the idea of anything less than 50 composite, so the specs are presented with that in mind. I’m using Charplan for the point allocation, so if anything seems off about the point allocation let me know. Just like any other class, a Ranger cannot be excellent at everything. They can be okay at everything, or excellent at something and bad at another thing. When you are testing specs, remember that each spec requires some getting used to as you move from one style of play to another. Snipers play completely different than Melee Rangers. Hybrids are somewhere in the middle and have to be more adaptable. Visi Rangers are total weirdos in the Stealther community and need a very different mindset to play.
Sniper
You shoot stuff. You shoot stuff good. Just don’t try to be a melee hero.
35 Stealth
45 Archery- Never 50, not worth the points invested for a truly miniscule damage increase, and you get the second Penetrating Shot at 40 and the second Rapid Fire at 45.
18 Celtic Dual - For the Side Stun
32 Piercing - Trying to squeeze as much Weapon Skill out of this line as possible, in order to more reliably get that evade stun in order to get away and create more range
36 Pathfinding
Hybrid
This should be the most popular spec as it gives you a little of everything without glaring weaknesses. Always keep in mind though, that the Jack-of-All-Trades is a master of none.
35 Stealth
35 Archery - Extremely important to never go below 35 so that you can Rapid Fire as needed. See above section on Archery
26 Celtic Dual - No follow up to the Side Stun, but it’s pushing a few more percentage points to increase offhand swings and damage
39 Blades - The sweet spot. Gets you above composite 50 (or even at composite 50 at RR1) and gives you Spectrum Blade, which gives you a fighting chance in melee. You also get the Blades evade stun (a Phoenix QoL gift)
36 Pathfinding
Melee Heavy Hybrid (contributed by Amunrras)
34 Stealth
35 Archery
18 Celtic Dual
44 Blades
36 Pathfinding
The Rear-Stylin’ Ranger (High Melee Hybrid)
34 Stealth
35 Archery
18 Celtic Dual
50 Blades - Gives you the second-in-chain rear style which has an excellent growth rate, and is equal in damage to the third-in-chain growth rate of the Celtic Dual side stun chain. Much quicker payoff. Your Weapon Skill will also be very good here.
27 Pathfinding - The highest possible with this spec. Sacrifices must be made.
Melee Ranger
34 Stealth
12 Archery - Just use the fastest bow you can get your hands on. You are not going to do any serious DPS with this. This is your sacrificial line
29 Celtic Dual - You get the side stun follow-up here for decent damage
50 Blades - That rear chain that is excellent, plus high Weapon Skill
36 Pathfinding
Visi Ranger (aka The Drunken Ranger)
This is (obviously) the spec that I use. Stealth is horrendous, so I don’t even bother running in stealth most of the time. I run visible from spot to spot, stealthing at places where cover (trees, grass, buildings, etc.) help the crappy Stealth spec. Again, sacrifices must be made, and Stealth is the victim here.
10 Stealth - Safe Fall is the best thing about Stealth at this level
35 Archery
29 Celtic Dual
50 Blades
36 Pathfinding
The Duelist
Granted, this is a weird one, but it was the spec I was running before the wonderful Phoenix Developers added QoL updates to the style lines (such as an evade stun instead of a block stun in Blades)
10 Stealth
35 Archery
23 Celtic Dual - Side stun but no follow-up
50 Blades
25 Pierce - Get an evade, swap to a Pierce weapon, hit them with the evade stun, swap back to Blades. A real pain in the ass but it worked
31 Pathfinding - Not optimal, but it still gave me the yellow AF buff
Conclusion
Thank you for reading my much longer than intended guide. Keep in mind that Archery and Melee is a lot less effective so just know that you will be fighting an uphill battle as a Ranger, or as an Archer in general. Personally I’m not going to bother with a Ranger on the Phoenix server. Currently a Nightshade can put out more ranged DPS with casted DD’s than an Archer can (not per hit, PER SECOND). Therefore, to have an effective ranged stealth character that also does well in melee, I will be experimenting with a Nightshade. If I was on Mid on Phoenix I would play a Thane. A lot of this information is stuff that I’ve learned from testing, and mainly from reading a lot of other’s testing and hard work. Wyrd, Valesyra, Larian, and more that I have unfortunately forgotten have tested extensively. In conclusion, don’t take everything as gospel until you yourself have verified the information, which applies to any source of information, my information included. In closing, enjoy the game, don’t get too lost in the details, and have fun your way. If you want to try something unusual, then try it and see if it works. A lot of people will tell you that you are dumb or whatever for trying something that isn’t in the norm, but if it works, then it’s not dumb. People are afraid of change, but be different if you like, but most of all have fun. Don’t let other people tell you how to have fun. In closing, I will leave you with some links for further reading and data input if you like.

Cadebrennus The Drunken Ranger, out. Slainte!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsY42S8E3-bNo7koW7oFZug






Links

http://kaber.bladekeep.com/

http://camelot.allakhazam.com/Ranger_Guide.html

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/index.html

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/a-guide-to-melee-rangers-1-02-updated-27-09-2005.173847/
Mon 12 Nov 2018 12:59 PM by romulus
Great guide, Cadebrennus!
This should definitely be stickied.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 1:30 PM by Enrighteous
You're doing a service to us all. Thank you
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:37 PM by Sepplord
I am probably not going to play a ranger on Phoenix (already played one toooooooooo long in classic), but i appreciate having people do these kind of efforts to improve documentation about the game

If more people do such elaborate and huge guides, maybe the mods could sticky them in a extra "Guide" section in the forum
Mon 12 Nov 2018 3:19 PM by Dominus
Cad is great both in forum and in game. Always happy to help a fellow player with their spec.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 5:11 PM by Cadebrennus
Thanks everyone. If you happen to encounter people with Ranger questions (or Archer questions in general, regardless of realm) in game feel free to send them here.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 6:07 PM by Thinal
I would be happy to run visible until I was setting up shop, as you mention in this guide, but for minstrels. Scouts might get a potshot as I keep running out of range, infs / SBs would be visible before they reach me. Hunters are extremely polite and cheerfully chose to not exist -- I dunno how the current iteration of stealth v dog even works because where the hell are hunters? But I digest...

Minnies are going to range mez me, set up a positional, hit me, insta DD me, insta stun me, then whittle me to death. That's assuming they don't have buddies waiting for the mez/stun to PA me. Maybe if he's alone and I have purge up, I can blow my purge and catch him before he starts kiting me.

So how do you deal with that? Taking it on the chin a few times... I get that, part of the game. Sometimes though, just getting to the mile gate is a freaking chore. Running out to emain, the low-stealth / run visible strategy makes more sense, because you can go most of the way in somewhat safe territory and approach the Mid--Alb road kinda from the side. But in equal footing territory such as Cath, much less so.

I've been playing around with high stealth builds on archers and assassins for the increased movement speed. It's not much of a boost, but I don't see dipping below 35 base even at high RR so I can drag tail even more.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 6:59 PM by Uthred
Sticky
Mon 12 Nov 2018 7:32 PM by Cadebrennus
Uthred wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 6:59 PM
Sticky

Woooo!
Mon 12 Nov 2018 7:59 PM by Cadebrennus
Thinal wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 6:07 PM
I would be happy to run visible until I was setting up shop, as you mention in this guide, but for minstrels. Scouts might get a potshot as I keep running out of range, infs / SBs would be visible before they reach me. Hunters are extremely polite and cheerfully chose to not exist -- I dunno how the current iteration of stealth v dog even works because where the hell are hunters? But I digest...

Minnies are going to range mez me, set up a positional, hit me, insta DD me, insta stun me, then whittle me to death. That's assuming they don't have buddies waiting for the mez/stun to PA me. Maybe if he's alone and I have purge up, I can blow my purge and catch him before he starts kiting me.

So how do you deal with that? Taking it on the chin a few times... I get that, part of the game. Sometimes though, just getting to the mile gate is a freaking chore. Running out to emain, the low-stealth / run visible strategy makes more sense, because you can go most of the way in somewhat safe territory and approach the Mid--Alb road kinda from the side. But in equal footing territory such as Cath, much less so.

I've been playing around with high stealth builds on archers and assassins for the increased movement speed. It's not much of a boost, but I don't see dipping below 35 base even at high RR so I can drag tail even more.

Minstrels are a serious problem for every class. Luckily we have Blades (neutral to chainmail) or Pierce (bonus to chainmail). Plus we have arrows that can be Thrust. However, why in the hell does a class with that many abilities and Stealth and Climb Walls have chainmail armor, something they share in common with Mercs, Warriors, Skalds, (and the Hub equivalent) Hero's? The answer is Mythic screwed up. Big time. It was probably the biggest oversight as far as balance is concerned and it continues to be. If Minstrels had leather armor then there would be a reason for them to be as slippery as they are, but they can stand there and take the hits with the best of them.

I have no simple answer for you there. All I know is that I can't remember EVER being found by a Minstrel if I don't want him to find me, and I've run 10 Stealth for years. Most of the time when you disappear at a distance players won't bother to look for you, regardless of your stealth spec.

The only way I've dealt with Minstrels on live (and we'll see how it goes here) is to be a melee monster. I'll start with some arrows until I get stunned then mezzed, which happens 100% of the time. I usually don't purge it because as you said, they're setting up their opener and will break their own mezz, making me mezz immune for the rest of the fight. If they try to take the fight to the ground I take the fight to the ground. I expect another stun somewhere in the fight, and that's when I purge. I /use DDs to interrupt their speed shout if they try to get away or try to regain distance for another round of mezz/stun. Although it's not always successful, I can catch them when they try to re-set the fight (aka stun then run) with the Ranger speed shout. When they reset, YOU reset. Chug a heal potion, re-stealth (if only to clear yourself as a target from them and their pet) use First Aid if you have it, then re-engage if you can.

There's a reason that I will target a Minstrel first, in any battle, whether I'm solo, duo, smallman, Visi group (8mans and such), stealthing, zerging, whatever. The Minstrel has a collection of tools that no other class in the game has, along with the Armor Factor of all tanks in the game save two. The Minstrel can turn the tide of fights like no other class with the added ability of self sufficiency, unlike other classes that are tide-turners. While bad Minstrels are just annoying, good Minstrels are difficult to beat and excellent Minstrels are near godly. Plan your fight strategies accordingly and try to recognize what tier of player is behind the keyboard when up against a Minstrel.

This is not a fight with a Minstrel, but it does show some of the tactics against a strong class that still isn't nearly as godly in the right hands as a Minstrel. The reason I'm linking it is because it's very close to a Minstrel fight, sans pet. At the 1:05 mark I'm fighting one of the highest RR Skalds on the server, who also happens to be one of the best soloers on the server. I'm RR8 or RR9 in this fight. I actually beat her, but you can see how narrow the fight was. I literally used every tool I had available just to stay alive during the fight, including re-sets which I rarely do. I was told that she wanted a rematch and that she was looking for me so I hid from her from that point forward! There's no doubt she would have taken my lunch money and stuffed me in a locker had she caught me again. She was that good, and playing a very strong solo class.

https://youtu.be/mo7c_IS4e54
(skip to 1:05)
Mon 12 Nov 2018 9:33 PM by Thinal
I have faith that you can stealth around with your 10+RR stealth and do an excellent job at avoid minnies. The question is regarding your advice to run places visible and setup stealth for ambush once there. (Or of course popping stealth if you see any visis on the way.)

Even if true, "well minnies are just OP" doesn't prevent the scenario I just described. That's why I run stealthed. Or at least, toggle between stealth and sprint to clear anybody's target on me. It's hard to tell if that works, but it makes me feel better.

And given that stealth spec is tied to stealthed run speed / MoS on this server, a 10 base stealth makes more sense on live / classic / the "other" 1.65 than it does here. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but as I described earlier, Emain mechanics are different than equal-footing mechanics and might not be a good indicator of success with low stealth. I've seen you in Cathal; how's it working out for you there?
Tue 13 Nov 2018 1:29 AM by Cadebrennus
Thinal wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 9:33 PM
I have faith that you can stealth around with your 10+RR stealth and do an excellent job at avoid minnies. The question is regarding your advice to run places visible and setup stealth for ambush once there. (Or of course popping stealth if you see any visis on the way.)

Even if true, "well minnies are just OP" doesn't prevent the scenario I just described. That's why I run stealthed. Or at least, toggle between stealth and sprint to clear anybody's target on me. It's hard to tell if that works, but it makes me feel better.

And given that stealth spec is tied to stealthed run speed / MoS on this server, a 10 base stealth makes more sense on live / classic / the "other" 1.65 than it does here. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but as I described earlier, Emain mechanics are different than equal-footing mechanics and might not be a good indicator of success with low stealth. I've seen you in Cathal; how's it working out for you there?

Sorry, I misunderstood the question completely. When it comes to setting up ambushes I cover that in detail. However, I don't mind going over the most salient points again. When I do set up an ambush with 10+RR+Gear stealth, I rely HEAVILY on cover like you would not believe. Because this is a game with 3rd person view, it's rather easy to find cover the same way a Visi would, but do it more effectively even with crappy stealth, and still be able to keep an eye out while you're hiding behind something. If it was a first person game it would be a lot harder to keep an eye out. The thing is that our stealth shadow form is harder to see at night than it is during the day. So I think realistically and don't really try to ambush during the day. At night it's a completely different story. Depending on what sort of cover you are using in conjunction with crappy stealth, even Assassins will have trouble finding you until they are close enough for your name to glow. Keep your torch OFF if you are trying to hide, because it will light up your shadow form.

In Cathal Valley I mostly ran with Visis which is more fun for me, but I did solo once in a while, mainly when trying to regroup or something. I have done a few runs to Emain solo, and have never had a problem with the stealth spec. I haven't been found yet, not by Visi 8mans, not by the zerg, and not by other stealthers. By the time I'm done in Emain I don't want to run back so I either log off in the Hib keep near the PKs (I suck at remembering names) or suicide on the Mid keep. Sometimes I'll run around near the PKs before I suicide on the guards and I still haven't been caught yet, even with 25 or 26 composite stealth. The main difference between myself and 99% of the stealther community is not just my low stealth spec, it's how I view stealth in general. I don't treat it as godly invisibility, I treat it as something to supplement general sneakiness. Even when I did play with 50 composite stealth I was never one to stand around in the middle of fields (stupid), in the middle of roads (moronic) or in the middle of choke points and other obvious hiding spots (suicidal).
Tue 13 Nov 2018 6:21 AM by labra
What about shar race ? Is the CON bonus worth?
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:34 AM by Cadebrennus
labra wrote:
Tue 13 Nov 2018 6:21 AM
What about shar race ? Is the CON bonus worth?

I don't think that's even an available race on Phoenix. That being said I would vote no on Shar. The Con bonus just wouldn't be worth it IMO with no bonus to Strength (half of your WS for Thrust, all of it for Slash) and a loss to Dex (need for Archery and half of Thrust) and Quick (need for Archery and Melee) both of which you need for Defense. If you want to be a melee bruiser then go Celt and high melee, if you want to be tanky and take less hits from the enemy then go Luri (best at evading or even using an unspecced shield) or Elf for style points with some of the Luri's positive points mentioned above.
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:47 AM by labra
Shar is available but I wanted your thoughts regarding constitution bonus.
Fair enough, celt ranger is fine
Tue 13 Nov 2018 4:10 PM by Cadebrennus
labra wrote:
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:47 AM
Shar is available but I wanted your thoughts regarding constitution bonus.
Fair enough, celt ranger is fine

Honestly if you like the look of the Shar then go for it. It's not a huge deal. 10 points here and there is a difference but it's not a significant difference. I am more of an advocate of "play what you can stand to look at" more than anything else. The Ranger Team Lead on live played an Elf Ranger for a decade, despite Elf not being optimal for min/maxing, and he did just fine.
Tue 13 Nov 2018 5:19 PM by Thinal
Cadebrennus wrote:
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:34 AM
That being said I would vote no on Shar. The Con bonus just wouldn't be worth it IMO with no bonus to Strength (half of your WS for Thrust, all of it for Slash) and a loss to Dex (need for Archery and half of Thrust) and Quick (need for Archery and Melee) both of which you need for Defense.

I'm going to table my discussion on Stealth and talk about this instead, because it may be bad advice.

I was seriously unimpressed when I saw Shar available as a racial option, and didn't think we needed a high con / low actually useful stats race, especially as a stealther, and that Hibernia had drawn the short straw of expansion races. But a lot has changed since then, and I'm now experimenting with Shar builds.

Perhaps some things will even out come release, but a lot of the dynamics I see in i50 are ones I heard complained about on Uthgard, such as emain being the main point of action and the lack of viability of smallman or non-stealther solos. Good or bad, goal or something to whine about (from me or others), my stealthers have largely played the stealth v stealth or add-to-zerg game. As I can choose the latter, my primary non-optional opponents are other stealthers.

Again, come release perhaps I can cut bait better than anyone else and have better gear, but that's not likely either. And certainly in stealth v stealth and in most other reasonable avenues of play, a ranger is not going to be able to overpower somebody else through marginal weapon skill or damage. That's because stealther v stealther isn't about damage. When you've been slammed, instant-stunned, or dragonfanged, having an additional 3.26% damage from 75 vs 60 base strength is meaningless.

In most games I've played, if you can't immediately overwhelm your opponent (which assassins are designed to do but have largely been nerfed from doing so, but that's another thread), then investing into defense is usually better than investing into offense. Especially the type of defense where you don't get hit at all, and I've always excelled at high-defense builds in other games.

Except here, between the original design of DAoC and the custom Phoenix changes, that doesn't really work. I've posted a thread to get the details rather than assumptions, and while in most games one can raise the "miss" rate as well as "passive" defenses of block / evade / parry, one cannot directly raise defense here. Block and Parry are specs, but evade is not. "Miss" rates apply when CC;d, but passive defenses do not. Phoenix piled on top of that by adding a custom 0.5% miss reduction per point of weapon spec (from style line or weapon line, whichever is higher). OF RAs had the mastery of block/parry and dodger, NNF RAs do not and these were not part of the custom additions to Phoenix RAs.

Another issue especially pertinent to Rangers as the "extra" dual-wielding class is the custom 1/3 instead of 1/2 reduction to evasion when facing a dual-wielder. One of the side effects, by intention or happy coincidence, of the original 1/2 reduction in evades was not only more damage done, but less opportunity for the opponent to trigger a reactionary style. Albion / Hiberina dual wielders add about 2/3-3/4 more hits to be evaded / blocked / parried, and Midgard always doubles the opportunity for reactionaries. Cutting evasion by 1/2 against a dual wielder simply restored a comparable rate of generating opportunities to react.

Add to that the 3-second window to react, and custom weapon lines setting class-appropriate triggers (off-block stun at 21 blades is now off-evade for rangers and nightshades for example), and there's a super, super high chance that you're going to trigger a reactionary stun early in the fight. You're also going to be hit, not missed, by that slam.

ALL PASSIVE DEFENSE RAs ARE GONE, and there are no RAs to increase "miss" rate. The ONLY ways you have to mitigate these are using styles with higher defense bonuses (countered by styles with higher attack bonuses) and raising dex/quick for evade. Well, a Shar starting 50/50 and no starting points invested is going to evade 1.875% less often than a Lurikeen with +15 dex (95/80). So a Shar isn't really giving up any defense. A Shar could be just as good at blades as any Celt.

The defensive RAs left involve mitigating crowd control (purge / determination / avoidance of magic), raising health (toughness), healing damage done (ignore pain, first aid), and direct attribute investments. A Shar with higher HP is a better choice for the survive-then-heal approach than a Celt and miles ahead of a keen/elf.

Lower quickness cutting your DPS? Not by much, given how this is a haste effect and not a celerity effect to raise quickness. I'm not sure about here, but Uthgard had an issue where higher quickness was actually BAD for archery, as every hit is considered a "style." Meanwhile, higher quickness means your going to create even more opportunities for reactionaries, nope nope nope. 50 starting is fine on a class that gets +23, and I might even pull some OUT of my template when done.

So Shar might in fact be the master race for rangers for the current game dynamics. Perhaps, perhaps not by the dynamics we settle on at release.
Tue 13 Nov 2018 6:30 PM by labra
if my charplan is right, a naked level 50 celt has 1176 HP, a naked shar has 1248 HP.
That's 72 more HP.

I can't tell if it's something very useful in a fight, last time I played a shar ranger was while Lotm.

over racial resists however, I feel celt better than Shar
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:42 PM by Cadebrennus
Thinal wrote:
Tue 13 Nov 2018 5:19 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:34 AM
That being said I would vote no on Shar. The Con bonus just wouldn't be worth it IMO with no bonus to Strength (half of your WS for Thrust, all of it for Slash) and a loss to Dex (need for Archery and half of Thrust) and Quick (need for Archery and Melee) both of which you need for Defense.

I'm going to table my discussion on Stealth and talk about this instead, because it may be bad advice.

I was seriously unimpressed when I saw Shar available as a racial option, and didn't think we needed a high con / low actually useful stats race, especially as a stealther, and that Hibernia had drawn the short straw of expansion races. But a lot has changed since then, and I'm now experimenting with Shar builds.

Perhaps some things will even out come release, but a lot of the dynamics I see in i50 are ones I heard complained about on Uthgard, such as emain being the main point of action and the lack of viability of smallman or non-stealther solos. Good or bad, goal or something to whine about (from me or others), my stealthers have largely played the stealth v stealth or add-to-zerg game. As I can choose the latter, my primary non-optional opponents are other stealthers.

Again, come release perhaps I can cut bait better than anyone else and have better gear, but that's not likely either. And certainly in stealth v stealth and in most other reasonable avenues of play, a ranger is not going to be able to overpower somebody else through marginal weapon skill or damage. That's because stealther v stealther isn't about damage. When you've been slammed, instant-stunned, or dragonfanged, having an additional 3.26% damage from 75 vs 60 base strength is meaningless.

In most games I've played, if you can't immediately overwhelm your opponent (which assassins are designed to do but have largely been nerfed from doing so, but that's another thread), then investing into defense is usually better than investing into offense. Especially the type of defense where you don't get hit at all, and I've always excelled at high-defense builds in other games.

Except here, between the original design of DAoC and the custom Phoenix changes, that doesn't really work. I've posted a thread to get the details rather than assumptions, and while in most games one can raise the "miss" rate as well as "passive" defenses of block / evade / parry, one cannot directly raise defense here. Block and Parry are specs, but evade is not. "Miss" rates apply when CC;d, but passive defenses do not. Phoenix piled on top of that by adding a custom 0.5% miss reduction per point of weapon spec (from style line or weapon line, whichever is higher). OF RAs had the mastery of block/parry and dodger, NNF RAs do not and these were not part of the custom additions to Phoenix RAs.

Another issue especially pertinent to Rangers as the "extra" dual-wielding class is the custom 1/3 instead of 1/2 reduction to evasion when facing a dual-wielder. One of the side effects, by intention or happy coincidence, of the original 1/2 reduction in evades was not only more damage done, but less opportunity for the opponent to trigger a reactionary style. Albion / Hiberina dual wielders add about 2/3-3/4 more hits to be evaded / blocked / parried, and Midgard always doubles the opportunity for reactionaries. Cutting evasion by 1/2 against a dual wielder simply restored a comparable rate of generating opportunities to react.

Add to that the 3-second window to react, and custom weapon lines setting class-appropriate triggers (off-block stun at 21 blades is now off-evade for rangers and nightshades for example), and there's a super, super high chance that you're going to trigger a reactionary stun early in the fight. You're also going to be hit, not missed, by that slam.

ALL PASSIVE DEFENSE RAs ARE GONE, and there are no RAs to increase "miss" rate. The ONLY ways you have to mitigate these are using styles with higher defense bonuses (countered by styles with higher attack bonuses) and raising dex/quick for evade. Well, a Shar starting 50/50 and no starting points invested is going to evade 1.875% less often than a Lurikeen with +15 dex (95/80). So a Shar isn't really giving up any defense. A Shar could be just as good at blades as any Celt.

The defensive RAs left involve mitigating crowd control (purge / determination / avoidance of magic), raising health (toughness), healing damage done (ignore pain, first aid), and direct attribute investments. A Shar with higher HP is a better choice for the survive-then-heal approach than a Celt and miles ahead of a keen/elf.

Lower quickness cutting your DPS? Not by much, given how this is a haste effect and not a celerity effect to raise quickness. I'm not sure about here, but Uthgard had an issue where higher quickness was actually BAD for archery, as every hit is considered a "style." Meanwhile, higher quickness means your going to create even more opportunities for reactionaries, nope nope nope. 50 starting is fine on a class that gets +23, and I might even pull some OUT of my template when done.

So Shar might in fact be the master race for rangers for the current game dynamics. Perhaps, perhaps not by the dynamics we settle on at release.

These are all very good points, particularly about the CC Vs an inactive defense when CC'ed. A bigger HP pool to absorb some damage makes sense there. However, I think you missed my following post when I retracted some of my statements and instead said the differences were marginal. In the interest of information, I did some digging to see what the actual HP difference would be. Since I'm at school and not in front of my computer at home, I only have calculations on other forums to go off of. It looks like Shars would have 74 more HP than a Celt, or one to two unstyled hits from a weapon. I won't be able to see what the actual difference is until I get home later. As it stands now, this backs up my statement that differences are minimal. So if someone wants to play a Shar, then they should. An Elf, go for it. I tend to min/max my play as much as the next guy but getting hit and being able to absorb a bit more damage versus being marginally more able to evade that incoming Slam or Dragonfang is a matter of preference at this point
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:55 PM by Thinal
Well, it really makes more difference on a Dwarf Hunter than a Shar Ranger, because the Dwarf also has the benefit of 5% bonus body resistance (best stealther resistance type as all poisons and minnie debuffs are body), while the Shar's resistances are meh. Attributes are the same. I get 1935 HP out of either with the setup I've been running. (+15con, str/con charge + potions, Purge 2, lw/tireless 1, 65% IP, and I want to say 200 toughness hp? At work right now.)

If only I could get Pathfinding onto a Dwarf Hunter... BC absolutely sucks, but I prefer everything else about the sword Hunter for all of the reasons I stated. It's much easier to test in Emain, too.

It's not just about 74 hp. It's the entire strategy. If I roll Celt, I'm tuning my attributes and RAs for damage, but as Shar I'm doing HP and recovery. Mixed-mode is possible but not a likely strategy, so while your fresh i50 Celt could have 1861 or even higher HP, he probably doesn't.
Wed 28 Nov 2018 5:56 PM by Horus
Question...

What is the point of melee or even hybrid or melee spec? All things being equal, for what encounters is that beneficial? What stealther or melee classes can you beat in and equal fight 1 on 1? And any soft class you can beat 1 on 1 why would you not just use what an archers is supposed to be...a ranged DPSer.

I am not versed with current state of RAs on Phoenix so maybe at a certain RR there are RAs that make a melee ranger better than any other melee class you may be fighting 1 on 1?

I think people are going to be sorely disappointed if they think that can spec melee and go toe to toe with SBs, Infilts, Scouts, Hunters, Skalds, or Minstrels.

Unless you are much higher RR, they are not fulled SCed , or not using all the tools at their disposal, you are going to be sorely disappointed...IMO

If I am incorrect, please enlighten me to an example melee strategy against a typical class you would meet up with...

And as far as low stealth...

Are there not scenarios where you need to move into position at places where choke points do exist? (MGs, Dungeons, Keep doors, leaving PKs). Seems like with low stealth you are severely hampering the places you can go in relative safety.
Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:37 PM by Cadebrennus
Horus wrote:
Wed 28 Nov 2018 5:56 PM
Question...

What is the point of melee or even hybrid or melee spec? All things being equal, for what encounters is that beneficial? What stealther or melee classes can you beat in and equal fight 1 on 1? And any soft class you can beat 1 on 1 why would you not just use what an archers is supposed to be...a ranged DPSer.

I am not versed with current state of RAs on Phoenix so maybe at a certain RR there are RAs that make a melee ranger better than any other melee class you may be fighting 1 on 1?

I think people are going to be sorely disappointed if they think that can spec melee and go toe to toe with SBs, Infilts, Scouts, Hunters, Skalds, or Minstrels.

Unless you are much higher RR, they are not fulled SCed , or not using all the tools at their disposal, you are going to be sorely disappointed...IMO

If I am incorrect, please enlighten me to an example melee strategy against a typical class you would meet up with...

And as far as low stealth...

Are there not scenarios where you need to move into position at places where choke points do exist? (MGs, Dungeons, Keep doors, leaving PKs). Seems like with low stealth you are severely hampering the places you can go in relative safety.

Going high melee or hybrid spec simply gives you more options than shoot & move. Archery can be interrupted by a stiff breeze so it's good to have a secondary (or even primary) source of DPS in melee. In addition there are stuns, bleeds, hinders, and ASRs (attack speed reducers) that are available in melee that don't exist in Archery. I find that the high melee (but still keeping minimum 35 bow) and hybrid specs work best in a group. For pure soloing I would recommend either full melee (low bow) or full sniper (only side stun and evade stun in melee).

In a face to face match Assassins still have the upper hand with a much higher evade rate (approximately 25% better). They also have WS debuff poisons to give them a decidedly upper hand when trading blows.

This is why I recommend the high melee or hybrid spec as a grouped Ranger and that's where the strength of the Archer class lies, in the versatility that it can bring to the battlefield. As a class that can bring decent (not stellar) ranged DPS, interrupt capacity, and melee style effects the Archer works best as part of a team IMO.

When it comes to Stealth where most people go wrong with Stealth is that they treat it like Harry Potter's invisibility cloak. This is why you see so many whine posts from Stealthers about being uncovered while standing in the middle of the road in a high traffic area. Stealth spec should be used to enhance general sneakiness, not replace it. This is why I am able to hide from Visi groups with only 10 Stealth. I don't bother trying to hide from other Stealthers because they're going to find you anyways, especially if they're an Assassin. IMO only Assassins need minimum 50 composite because their main attack has to occur when they're right on top of you.

When it comes to hiding with a low Stealth spec you can use terrain as detailed in the guide.
Fri 7 Dec 2018 9:14 PM by Cadebrennus
Due to the arbitrary nature of changes, mismanagement of code causing a multitude of performance issues, I can no longer endorse this server or its staff. I have taken down the guide due to this reason and because the constant arbitrary changes in the last two weeks makes any advice subject to the latest daily patch. Thank you all for reading and best of luck in the future.

Drunken Ranger out.
Sat 8 Dec 2018 8:01 AM by labra
What?
Sat 8 Dec 2018 8:46 AM by Ceen
Drama anyone?
Sun 9 Dec 2018 4:22 AM by Cadebrennus
Ceen wrote:
Sat 8 Dec 2018 8:46 AM
Drama anyone?

Stalker, anyone? Yeesh, you're just plain creepy at this point.
Sun 9 Dec 2018 5:13 AM by labra
sad because I lost track of you low stealth spec
Wed 9 Jan 2019 1:33 PM by Gnarrg
I understand you dislike the server, but you would still do us players a great service by restoring your spec guides, they were very useful and I admit I haven't noted it down.
Wed 9 Jan 2019 8:37 PM by phixion
Personally never understood the very low stealth spec, you cannot expect to evade all threats, especially in OF. You also need to be able to get in range of potential action so that you can snipe people, sitting miles away from the action behind a tree isn't going to get you much in the way of action or realm points.

Even getting through the milegates is a chore in OF, venturing away from AMG in to the bowl is asking for trouble, so with 10 stealth you might as well have a huge arrow above your head. You just can't avoid some spots, unless again... you plan on sitting behind a tree in the most random spot ever where you won't see any action.

I would much rather drop Bow and raise Melee, but keep Stealth at or close to comp 50. Sure, you lose a bit of bow damage, but you aren't a 1 trick pony. If there's something I've learned over time, it's that 50 Bow is a complete waste of time, hitting like a wet noodle in melee is not going to win you any fights.

Just my opinion though, I've played mostly stealthers in my time and played many different playstyles with them. I tend to play more sneakily than the average player, I can't say low stealth has ever worked for me, it turns out to be more frustrating than anything. If you don't take stealth high enough, any points spent in it just seem like a waste, especially when visible characters can see you from so far away.

To each their own, but I thought I'd offer my point of view. I don't think I've ever seen one of these "low stealth" players excel in RvR realm rank wise.
Wed 9 Jan 2019 10:12 PM by Cadebrennus
Due to the overwhelming need and requests for my Ranger Guide, I am reposting it. However keep in mind that Archers are in a much, much different state now than the first half of beta. Physical damage is not nearly as effective as magic/poison damage, so as a class that relies entirely on physical damage, Rangers and other Archers are facing an uphill battle. Personally, I will be playing a Nightshade because their ranged DPS (up to 1500) should be on par or better than an Archer’s ranged DPS, dependent on target AF/ABS (not per hit, per second, hence Damage Per Second), not to mention that Envenom boosted Melee blows regular Melee out of the water. Play the class if you love it, but you have been forewarned.
Wed 9 Jan 2019 10:14 PM by Cadebrennus
phixion wrote:
Wed 9 Jan 2019 8:37 PM
Personally never understood the very low stealth spec, you cannot expect to evade all threats, especially in OF. You also need to be able to get in range of potential action so that you can snipe people, sitting miles away from the action behind a tree isn't going to get you much in the way of action or realm points.

Even getting through the milegates is a chore in OF, venturing away from AMG in to the bowl is asking for trouble, so with 10 stealth you might as well have a huge arrow above your head. You just can't avoid some spots, unless again... you plan on sitting behind a tree in the most random spot ever where you won't see any action.

I would much rather drop Bow and raise Melee, but keep Stealth at or close to comp 50. Sure, you lose a bit of bow damage, but you aren't a 1 trick pony. If there's something I've learned over time, it's that 50 Bow is a complete waste of time, hitting like a wet noodle in melee is not going to win you any fights.

Just my opinion though, I've played mostly stealthers in my time and played many different playstyles with them. I tend to play more sneakily than the average player, I can't say low stealth has ever worked for me, it turns out to be more frustrating than anything. If you don't take stealth high enough, any points spent in it just seem like a waste, especially when visible characters can see you from so far away.

To each their own, but I thought I'd offer my point of view. I don't think I've ever seen one of these "low stealth" players excel in RvR realm rank wise.

It just comes down to a preference in play style. Most people choose Archers or Assassins in DAOC because they like the sneaky play style. I like the Visi playstyle but I love in-game Archery so I play an Archer like a Visi class that can stealth if needed, even though he doesn't stealth well. To each his own.
Wed 9 Jan 2019 10:37 PM by Ceen
No one needs a wall of text with 30 % QQ 60 % text blocks repeating and 10 % information.

My advice get charges and healprocs, a fast and a slow bow and learn by try and error no way around it. Even if you do a lot of them its still faster than reading the "guide"
Wed 9 Jan 2019 11:41 PM by Zansobar
I don't believe casters cap their casting speed at 1.5 seconds as in your guide, I believe it is 40% of delve speed here, which is 1.2 seconds for even a 3.0 second cast speed spell. You aren't going to be out speed shoot a caster if the cast time is important for that since melee is capped at 1.5 secs but casters aren't.
Thu 10 Jan 2019 12:24 AM by Cadebrennus
Ceen wrote:
Wed 9 Jan 2019 10:37 PM
No one needs a wall of text with 30 % QQ 60 % text blocks repeating and 10 % information.

My advice get charges and healprocs, a fast and a slow bow and learn by try and error no way around it. Even if you do a lot of them its still faster than reading the "guide"

Ceen seriously you're creeping me out. You love to follow my posts and shit all over them without anything constructive to say for people actually looking for advice. If you can't be constructive or helpful then just retreat to your cave and continue sticking pins in the voodoo doll you have more than likely made of me.

There are plenty of Ranger Guides on the internet. Just post links to those if you don't like what I have written. If you don't like what I write then don't read it.

Because things have changed drastically on this server (and will continue to change if you read developer's notes) I think it's better to be a realist about class capabilities rather than force someone to level up something and then realize how ineffective it is.
Thu 10 Jan 2019 12:26 AM by Cadebrennus
Zansobar wrote:
Wed 9 Jan 2019 11:41 PM
I don't believe casters cap their casting speed at 1.5 seconds as in your guide, I believe it is 40% of delve speed here, which is 1.2 seconds for even a 3.0 second cast speed spell. You aren't going to be out speed shoot a caster if the cast time is important for that since melee is capped at 1.5 secs but casters aren't.

I think you're right about that. On live it may be as fast as 1 second. However it is possible to keep more than one caster interrupted as long as the Archer keeps the caster at more than 1500 range or if in 1500 range, keeps a DD charge handy to interrupt them in order to get the upper hand. This of course assumes that the caster doesn't have nearsight, in which case the Archer is screwed.
Thu 10 Jan 2019 1:50 AM by Zansobar
Do you happen to know what exactly the AF nerf (for melee) was here? I just can't see how they would have got the cap AF wrong for each armor type since it's a simple formula and is visible on your character sheet. Was it instead a nerf to weaponskill?
Thu 10 Jan 2019 3:19 AM by Cadebrennus
Zansobar wrote:
Thu 10 Jan 2019 1:50 AM
Do you happen to know what exactly the AF nerf (for melee) was here? I just can't see how they would have got the cap AF wrong for each armor type since it's a simple formula and is visible on your character sheet. Was it instead a nerf to weaponskill?

They boosted the AF so that all physical attacks (melee and Archery) do less damage. It was supposedly dropped a bit after the initial change so that melee and Archery did a bit more but I didn't see any change in the numbers.
Thu 10 Jan 2019 6:14 PM by Rakul
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 11:37 AM
Sniper
You shoot stuff. You shoot stuff good. Just don’t try to be a melee hero.
35 Stealth
45 Archery- Never 50, not worth the points invested for a truly miniscule damage increase, and you get the additional Penetrating Shot at 45
18 Celtic Dual - For the Side Stun
32 Piercing - Trying to squeeze as much Weapon Skill out of this line as possible, in order to more reliably get that evade stun in order to get away and create more range
36 Pathfinding

Thanks for the Phoenix Ranger guide, Cadebrennus, but a quick question regarding the highlighted text above. Did you mean to say Rapid Fire II at 45 or Penetrating Arrow II at 40? I assume the former, but just wanted to double check to ensure you didn't intend a 40 Archery.
Thu 10 Jan 2019 6:24 PM by Cadebrennus
Rakul wrote:
Thu 10 Jan 2019 6:14 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 11:37 AM
Sniper
You shoot stuff. You shoot stuff good. Just don’t try to be a melee hero.
35 Stealth
45 Archery- Never 50, not worth the points invested for a truly miniscule damage increase, and you get the additional Penetrating Shot at 45
18 Celtic Dual - For the Side Stun
32 Piercing - Trying to squeeze as much Weapon Skill out of this line as possible, in order to more reliably get that evade stun in order to get away and create more range
36 Pathfinding

Thanks for the Phoenix Ranger guide, Cadebrennus, but a quick question regarding the highlighted text above. Did you mean to say Rapid Fire II at 45 or Penetrating Arrow II at 40? I assume the former, but just wanted to double check to ensure you didn't intend a 40 Archery.

Good catch! I'll fix it.
Thu 10 Jan 2019 6:28 PM by Rakul
Many thanks!
Sun 13 Jan 2019 10:18 AM by randomeclipse
Thanks for the guide, really useful 👍.
Mon 14 Jan 2019 2:29 AM by Weezull
Putting points in pathfinding is pretty dumb with how easily available the buff pots are. You need to invest some serious points into it in order to get buffs that are better than what everybody gets for free already. Better to just invest more in melee/stealth/bow and forget PF exists.
Mon 14 Jan 2019 3:13 AM by Cadebrennus
Weezull wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 2:29 AM
Putting points in pathfinding is pretty dumb with how easily available the buff pots are. You need to invest some serious points into it in order to get buffs that are better than what everybody gets for free already. Better to just invest more in melee/stealth/bow and forget PF exists.

Do you have numbers to back this up or is this just an opinion? Opinions are fine, but it needs to be stated that it is just an opinion, stated without facts or testing. Everything I have written in the guide is backed up by facts and testing, either by myself or others. For example, there is a serious drop-off above 40 in Archery or Melee, but Pathfinding can make up that lost ground in the form of the Damage Add, which stacks with group friendly Damage Adds, such as that from the Warden. The Armor Factor buff is a spec buff, so it stacks with a base AF buff. The base Strength and spec Dex/Quick are far beyond what is available in Alchemy, so that is extremely helpful for those who don't have a Dex/Quick charge handy.

Those are my facts backed up by testing. Where are yours?




I welcome dissension in this particular Ranger Guide, but be prepared to back up what you say.
Mon 14 Jan 2019 7:38 AM by Slayercol
Hello,

I have a question about de spec in PF, in all your templates you're not talking about the 46PF dmg add. Is it really bad to spend points until that level?

I was playing ranger all the time (live, Uthgard, here now), but the diff between 9.4 and 7.3 is significant?
Did you tested it?
Mon 14 Jan 2019 7:44 AM by Cadebrennus
Slayercol wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 7:38 AM
Hello,

I have a question about de spec in PF, in all your templates you're not talking about the 46PF dmg add. Is it really bad to spend points until that level?

I was playing ranger all the time (live, Uthgard, here now), but the diff between 9.4 and 7.3 is significant?
Did you tested it?

I did test it. It's certainly possible to squeeze out a bit more DPS by going to 46 PF but it requires a significant sacrifice somewhere else to achieve. It just wasn't worth it for most builds in my opinion. Someone else may come up with a build where it's absolutely essential and I welcome some new knowledge if it's out there with more testing and RvR experience. I have even recommended that certain players try 46 PF on occasion dependent on what they have told me they want to do or accomplish, but that has always been on a case by case basis.
Mon 14 Jan 2019 9:01 PM by labra
Are you aiming to play a low stealth nightshade?
Mon 14 Jan 2019 10:58 PM by Cadebrennus
labra wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 9:01 PM
Are you aiming to play a low stealth nightshade?

Absolutely not. Unlike Archers, an Assassin cannot execute their class defining attack with low Stealth.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 1:33 AM by Eodis
Is Celtic Dual working as intended like it does in live server ? If it is the case i'm not sure about your melee builds... You should aim for 51 with bonus in your base weapon, go for 50 Celtic Dual and play only with CD styles. (Wyrd's tests)

Something like 30stealth/~38weapon/50cd/31path low rank and 25stealth/30weapon/50cd/42path high rank.

Did you try anything like that ? I would like to know if this works in here.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 2:33 AM by Weezull
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 3:13 AM
Weezull wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 2:29 AM
Putting points in pathfinding is pretty dumb with how easily available the buff pots are. You need to invest some serious points into it in order to get buffs that are better than what everybody gets for free already. Better to just invest more in melee/stealth/bow and forget PF exists.

Do you have numbers to back this up or is this just an opinion? Opinions are fine, but it needs to be stated that it is just an opinion, stated without facts or testing. Everything I have written in the guide is backed up by facts and testing, either by myself or others. For example, there is a serious drop-off above 40 in Archery or Melee, but Pathfinding can make up that lost ground in the form of the Damage Add, which stacks with group friendly Damage Adds, such as that from the Warden. The Armor Factor buff is a spec buff, so it stacks with a base AF buff. The base Strength and spec Dex/Quick are far beyond what is available in Alchemy, so that is extremely helpful for those who don't have a Dex/Quick charge handy.

Those are my facts backed up by testing. Where are yours?




I welcome dissension in this particular Ranger Guide, but be prepared to back up what you say.

I hit a target dummy a few times in the beta with different specs, trying different levels of CD/pierce/PF and saw that I was doing most melee damage with 50 CD, around 30 pierce, and no PF, just pots (maintained 50 comp stealth and archery). If you did some more recent and extensive testing and stuff then I'll take your word for it. But really it sucks to spec into buffs when you already have buffs. I'm pretty salty about buffpots being a thing and reducing the effectiveness of things like Pathfinding, solo Friars, etc.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 3:49 AM by Cadebrennus
Weezull wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 2:33 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 3:13 AM
Weezull wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 2:29 AM
Putting points in pathfinding is pretty dumb with how easily available the buff pots are. You need to invest some serious points into it in order to get buffs that are better than what everybody gets for free already. Better to just invest more in melee/stealth/bow and forget PF exists.

Do you have numbers to back this up or is this just an opinion? Opinions are fine, but it needs to be stated that it is just an opinion, stated without facts or testing. Everything I have written in the guide is backed up by facts and testing, either by myself or others. For example, there is a serious drop-off above 40 in Archery or Melee, but Pathfinding can make up that lost ground in the form of the Damage Add, which stacks with group friendly Damage Adds, such as that from the Warden. The Armor Factor buff is a spec buff, so it stacks with a base AF buff. The base Strength and spec Dex/Quick are far beyond what is available in Alchemy, so that is extremely helpful for those who don't have a Dex/Quick charge handy.

Those are my facts backed up by testing. Where are yours?




I welcome dissension in this particular Ranger Guide, but be prepared to back up what you say.

I hit a target dummy a few times in the beta with different specs, trying different levels of CD/pierce/PF and saw that I was doing most melee damage with 50 CD, around 30 pierce, and no PF, just pots (maintained 50 comp stealth and archery). If you did some more recent and extensive testing and stuff then I'll take your word for it. But really it sucks to spec into buffs when you already have buffs. I'm pretty salty about buffpots being a thing and reducing the effectiveness of things like Pathfinding, solo Friars, etc.

It's true that PF is less effective on Phoenix than it is on Uthgard, for example, but there are some benefits to PF. The AF buff for one, and the strength buff for another. The only way to top the Dex quick buff is with a charge (all of this assuming PF at 36.) The damage add helps now more than ever because physical damage got nerfed but magic damage didn't. Prior to the nerf the DA was a smaller percentage of damage output. Post-nerf it's a larger percentage of damage output. It also helps a lot with the Critshot big damage numbers. However if someone such as yourself wishes to skip that and put more points elsewhere, then go for it. Run with that for a while in RvR and report back. Then we can put your findings in the Guide. I'm all for it.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 3:55 AM by Cadebrennus
Eodis wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 1:33 AM
Is Celtic Dual working as intended like it does in live server ? If it is the case i'm not sure about your melee builds... You should aim for 51 with bonus in your base weapon, go for 50 Celtic Dual and play only with CD styles. (Wyrd's tests)

Something like 30stealth/~38weapon/50cd/31path low rank and 25stealth/30weapon/50cd/42path high rank.

Did you try anything like that ? I would like to know if this works in here.

I ran Wyrd spec on live for a while and it worked perfectly fine. However to get the level 50 .90 or .99 Growth Rate style in CD it has to be 3rd in a side chain. The .90 or .99 Growth Rate style in Blades at 50 is 2nd in a rear chain, which means not only does it average higher over two swings, it can be spammed on running targets. In addition Blades has the two-part anytime ASR (Attack Speed Reducer) at 39. These are my main reasons for high Blades instead of high CD.

With all that being said I will be testing out a Split-Spec Ranger and Nightshade (for Visi grouping and melee assist train), so they will be 44 CD and unfortunately only 25/25 Blades and Pierce.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 10:09 AM by Eodis
Cadebrennus wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 3:55 AM
Eodis wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 1:33 AM
Is Celtic Dual working as intended like it does in live server ? If it is the case i'm not sure about your melee builds... You should aim for 51 with bonus in your base weapon, go for 50 Celtic Dual and play only with CD styles. (Wyrd's tests)

Something like 30stealth/~38weapon/50cd/31path low rank and 25stealth/30weapon/50cd/42path high rank.

Did you try anything like that ? I would like to know if this works in here.

I ran Wyrd spec on live for a while and it worked perfectly fine. However to get the level 50 .90 or .99 Growth Rate style in CD it has to be 3rd in a side chain. The .90 or .99 Growth Rate style in Blades at 50 is 2nd in a rear chain, which means not only does it average higher over two swings, it can be spammed on running targets. In addition Blades has the two-part anytime ASR (Attack Speed Reducer) at 39. These are my main reasons for high Blades instead of high CD.

With all that being said I will be testing out a Split-Spec Ranger and Nightshade (for Visi grouping and melee assist train), so they will be 44 CD and unfortunately only 25/25 Blades and Pierce.

Yeah the haste debuff on anytime looks really interesting. But i don't think it's worth losing about 20%chance for double swing, not to mention it's a strength weapon. Also a bit disappointed as i just noticed physical defence doesn't seem to be available for ranger(i didn't check in game but it's not listed on charplan). But i guess Toughness could be a pretty good replacment especially paired with IP.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 2:44 PM by Horus
Keep seeing the talk about PF armor buff. Not sure why there is so much love for this. It is quite meaningless at 50. It will never raise your AF above your cap. For example, if you are at 50 running around in 99qu armor, you will get a tiny AF boost from this buff...nothing close to the amount on the card the buff is suppose to give because you are already so close to your cap. If you are running around in a lev 51 full MP set which many of us do, the AF buff will do nothing for you...at least that is how it was on the other classic server. Not sure if it is different here....literally no point in specing to get a higher one..the blue AF buff will max your af at 50 unless you are running around in garbage armor (again, using info from other server assuming it works the same here)

Also not sure about dex/quick charges here. Pooka Lord Mantle was the only on the other server. Maybe there are others because of SI here? The 75 delve charged items are superior to the red PF dex/quick buff...but depending on your play preference can be a bit inconvenient at times. Some folks are ok always having to recharge items and leverage those for buffs. I personally found it to be a pain. I prefer having my own. That being said I will prob stop PF at the yellow dex/quick for standard play (roaming, zerg surfing) and keep charged items handy for specific encounters or keep defense. Not sure about pots..is there a 75 delve dex/quick pot?

Lastly not a fan of the melee heavy ranger. I've personally never observed or used it as successful on a classic freeshard. Maybe anecdotal, but there are reasons for this. Most players you will come across are doing the same thing you are, maximizing their toons capabilities . A ranger can never compete in melee vs a toon that is melee oriented from the start and tweaked for maximum effectiveness. Maybe if you are tweaked out and you go up against an amateur opponent who doesn't understand his character, yes...but not many of them play these days. Most of us are old time DaoCers that know the tricks, how to play, and how to max our character out. Various encounters but can be debated with "do this, then they will do that, then you do this etc.." My opinion..the archer class is built for ranged combat. That is their strength and what should be maximized and leveraged. Any focus on melee just makes you a 2nd class nightshade. Not say it is not useful in certain circumstances but if you think you can rely on melee to get kills as a primary attack, I think you will be disappointed...it is just there to finish off targets close to death. Again, an opinion based on play and observation. But I am open minded, and this is a new server. If someone tried out these melee heavy builds and is successful here I'd def be interested in hearing a report.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 4:00 PM by Zansobar
The ranger AF buff is listed as a Spec AF buff on the Phoenix character planner, so I assume that is correct. Which means it will raise your AF (or should) over your cap AF from strictly armor worn. A base AF buff would not, however, so if the PF AF buff is not raising AF then it should be sent in as a bug report.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 4:39 PM by Eodis
@Horus

Melee ranger (and hunter) was pretty good on live at some point due to the fact it had Physical Defense and access to Sojourner, also being more groupable than a Nightshade with Determination. You were basically able to play it like a Blademaster with a different tool kit.
Not sure about here since PD/Sojourner aren't available. And if Pathfinding is weak the only positive side of being melee ranger over nightshade is Ignore Pain for 1v1... But on the other hand if Pathfinding is useless you can max out both your melee abilities and have a pretty high score in Archery. Something like 50CD/40Archery/30Piercing/30Stealth at high rank.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 4:51 PM by Ceen
Zansobar wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 4:00 PM
The ranger AF buff is listed as a Spec AF buff on the Phoenix character planner, so I assume that is correct. Which means it will raise your AF (or should) over your cap AF from strictly armor worn. A base AF buff would not, however, so if the PF AF buff is not raising AF then it should be sent in as a bug report.
Spec AF from alchemist is just as good as the best Pathfinding buff so it is useless.
D/Q charge is waaay better than PF D/Q

Pathfinding for the buffs except damage add buff (low version is enough) is a waste of points.
Tue 15 Jan 2019 5:26 PM by Eodis
Good to know thank you Ceen, so i guess wasting points in Pathfinding is pointless
Tue 15 Jan 2019 8:54 PM by Tomthabom10
So what is a decent Shar melee ranger spec? Never played a melee ranger, but always liked the idea of them. Kinda hoping it works decently on Phoenix.
Wed 16 Jan 2019 1:13 AM by Zansobar
Eodis wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 5:26 PM
Good to know thank you Ceen, so i guess wasting points in Pathfinding is pointless

Pathfinding has mostly been about the damage add anyway.
Wed 16 Jan 2019 1:14 AM by Zansobar
Tomthabom10 wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 8:54 PM
So what is a decent Shar melee ranger spec? Never played a melee ranger, but always liked the idea of them. Kinda hoping it works decently on Phoenix.

I would wait until some people get high enough level and RR to see if it's viable here or not. I have a feeling it won't be, even though that is the path I chose on my first Ranger here due to the issues with bow damage being so low on this server. ( I mean you might win a one on one fight every time IP is up, but I'm not sure that qualifies as truly being viable).
Wed 16 Jan 2019 3:21 AM by Cadebrennus
This is a good thread to keep your eyes on regarding Archery spec and damage;

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3636
Wed 16 Jan 2019 2:48 PM by Horus
Zansobar wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 4:00 PM
The ranger AF buff is listed as a Spec AF buff on the Phoenix character planner, so I assume that is correct. Which means it will raise your AF (or should) over your cap AF from strictly armor worn. A base AF buff would not, however, so if the PF AF buff is not raising AF then it should be sent in as a bug report.

That is good to know...on the "other" server it was base so it would not raise your AF above cap. Not sure which is "correct" maybe they both are just different implementation. That def changes things and should be investigated.
Wed 16 Jan 2019 6:07 PM by Zansobar
Horus wrote:
Wed 16 Jan 2019 2:48 PM
Zansobar wrote:
Tue 15 Jan 2019 4:00 PM
The ranger AF buff is listed as a Spec AF buff on the Phoenix character planner, so I assume that is correct. Which means it will raise your AF (or should) over your cap AF from strictly armor worn. A base AF buff would not, however, so if the PF AF buff is not raising AF then it should be sent in as a bug report.

That is good to know...on the "other" server it was base so it would not raise your AF above cap. Not sure which is "correct" maybe they both are just different implementation. That def changes things and should be investigated.

I'm pretty sure its a spec buff here given the quality of RoGs are pretty close to 100% and I do see a sizeable increase in AF when I cast it...however my ranger is not high level yet. I would think the Phoenix devs wouldn't have made this mistake on the character planner either, since they are some pretty knowledgeable folks. Either way it should be fairly easy to test once people get high enough in PF and have high quality armor on to see if it takes you over your AF cap or not.
Wed 16 Jan 2019 9:08 PM by Cadebrennus
The PF AF buff has always been spec. Ever since I've run a buffbot on live (pre-SI) it has always stacked with the Druid's base AF buff. It does the same here when I'm in a group with a Druid/Warden/Bard. If it is not raising your AF then it is a bug.
Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:41 AM by Snoogy
Are you playing a ranger here? Am thoroughly enjoying mine so far. Cool guide thanks

-Propagandhi
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:39 AM by Cadebrennus
Snoogy wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:41 AM
Are you playing a ranger here? Am thoroughly enjoying mine so far. Cool guide thanks

-Propagandhi

I was leveling a NS but I just don't like playing Elf or Luri so I went back to Ranger. If Celtic NS was a thing here I'd be playing that instead of a Ranger.

I'm glad you like the Guide. There's too much misinformation so that's why I compiled if. It's a living document so if there's anything that seems out of place, wonky, or just plain wrong let me know and I will update the Guide.
Thu 17 Jan 2019 11:00 AM by inoeth
Cadebrennus wrote:
Wed 16 Jan 2019 9:08 PM
The PF AF buff has always been spec. Ever since I've run a buffbot on live (pre-SI) it has always stacked with the Druid's base AF buff. It does the same here when I'm in a group with a Druid/Warden/Bard. If it is not raising your AF then it is a bug.

no it has not, is got changed in 1.69 i believe
Thu 17 Jan 2019 5:23 PM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 11:00 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Wed 16 Jan 2019 9:08 PM
The PF AF buff has always been spec. Ever since I've run a buffbot on live (pre-SI) it has always stacked with the Druid's base AF buff. It does the same here when I'm in a group with a Druid/Warden/Bard. If it is not raising your AF then it is a bug.

no it has not, is got changed in 1.69 i believe

If it got changed in 1.69 then why was it stacking on live (at least until I left live) up to August 2016?
Thu 17 Jan 2019 6:21 PM by inoeth
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 5:23 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 11:00 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Wed 16 Jan 2019 9:08 PM
The PF AF buff has always been spec. Ever since I've run a buffbot on live (pre-SI) it has always stacked with the Druid's base AF buff. It does the same here when I'm in a group with a Druid/Warden/Bard. If it is not raising your AF then it is a bug.

no it has not, is got changed in 1.69 i believe

If it got changed in 1.69 then why was it stacking on live (at least until I left live) up to August 2016?

because thats 12 years after the change? i remember all the hunters back then were hyped because we were getting a spec af and because we could also buff that with this 20% buffbonus jewel
also watch old Lukiel videos he played with just his self des/quick but not the af

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_i4Bk2ybb0
Thu 17 Jan 2019 6:43 PM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 6:21 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 5:23 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 11:00 AM
no it has not, is got changed in 1.69 i believe

If it got changed in 1.69 then why was it stacking on live (at least until I left live) up to August 2016?

because thats 12 years after the change? i remember all the hunters back then were hyped because we were getting a spec af and because we could also buff that with this 20% buffbonus jewel
also watch old Lukiel videos he played with just his self des/quick but not the af

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_i4Bk2ybb0

If you look at my videos you can see that I have both AF buffs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7c_IS4e54
Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:29 PM by Tomthabom10
Gotta try this out. Won’t know how bad (or good) it’ll be unless I give it a whirl but either way it seems like a lot of fun. Think I’ll go with shar just cuss why not. What spec would y’all go with?
50 CD
29 blades
35 stealth
31 path
20 bow

44 CD
39 blades
35 stealth
31 path
17 bow

44 cd
29 blades
35 stealth
21 bow
36 path





H
Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:42 PM by Cadebrennus
Tomthabom10 wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:29 PM
Gotta try this out. Won’t know how bad (or good) it’ll be unless I give it a whirl but either way it seems like a lot of fun. Think I’ll go with shar just cuss why not. What spec would y’all go with?
50 CD
29 blades
35 stealth
31 path
20 bow

44 CD
39 blades
35 stealth
31 path
17 bow

44 cd
29 blades
35 stealth
21 bow
36 path





H


I see what you're trying to do here, so my recommendation is the 2nd one;

44 CD
39 blades (excellent for the ASR)
35 stealth
31 path
17 bow

However you might want to do some duel testing at level 49 (because you have infinite respecs before 50) and try it out vs this one;

44 CD
39 blades
32 stealth
36 path
13 bow

Try out this one in terms of damage and see if the Damage Add is worth it to you. You also lose some stealth but it might not be as big a deal as you think. Get a friend of a similar level and ask them to see how far they can see you at varying ranges, then use /groundset to put an exact number at that distance.

In the end, pick the one that works best for you.
Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:53 PM by Tomthabom10
Oh that one is kind of nice too. I just was hoping to hit the 35 stealth for the mastery of stealth bonus there but I’d probably rather do more damage than be a little bit harder to detect.

Do you think going 50 CD is worth it? That 34% haste Debuff could be brutal but 44-50 seems like too much
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:19 PM by Cadebrennus
Tomthabom10 wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:53 PM
Oh that one is kind of nice too. I just was hoping to hit the 35 stealth for the mastery of stealth bonus there but I’d probably rather do more damage than be a little bit harder to detect.

Do you think going 50 CD is worth it? That 34% haste Debuff could be brutal but 44-50 seems like too much

50 CD is only worth it if you are using Wyrd Spec or want more offhand swings. Pierce is a good candidate for Wyrd spec since most styles in Pierce suck anyways. Blades however, is amazing on its own. Compared to CD, Blades needs a read positional and a follow-up at 50 to get 0.90 GR (growth rate) whereas CD needs a harder to pull off side positional with the 0.90 GR as third-in-chain at 50.

Instead of looking only at the GR of the final style what you should do is average up all style GR needed to hit that final big hit style in the chain and then you will see what it actually is.

This is why if someone goes Blades then Wyrd Spec with CD/Blades isn't worth it imo.

The other thing is that 40+ weapon spec and especially 44+ weapon spec isn't worth the spec points damage-wise. That's why I recommend anything 40+ be specced only for the styles.

Addendum: this is why I normally spec 50 Blades. As mentioned above, it's the level 50 follow-up to the rear style that is worth speccing 50 for in Blades, and not because of any significant damage increase from speccing to 50 Blades.
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:42 PM by Zansobar
Tomthabom10 wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:29 PM
Gotta try this out. Won’t know how bad (or good) it’ll be unless I give it a whirl but either way it seems like a lot of fun. Think I’ll go with shar just cuss why not. What spec would y’all go with?
50 CD
29 blades
35 stealth
31 path
20 bow

44 CD
39 blades
35 stealth
31 path
17 bow

44 cd
29 blades
35 stealth
21 bow
36 path





H

Spec will also depend on what RR you are currently.
Fri 18 Jan 2019 12:11 AM by Cadebrennus
Tomthabom10 wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:41 PM
What is wyrd spec?

Long version:
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/wyrd---growth-rates

Short version (Drunken Ranger style of explaining):

In DAOC there is floor damage (the lowest amount that your styled hits and base damage will go).

Then there is ceiling damage (the highest that styled hits will go.)

When using a base style like Blades (such as Fireblade in Blades) your spec in Blades determines the lowest your Fireblade would go, as well as the highest it will go (floor and ceiling).

When using an "advanced" style like Celtic Dual or Crit Strike, if ONLY using advanced styles (such as Ice Storm or Perforate Artery) then your Blades spec will determine the floor and your CD or CS will determine the ceiling.

Wyrd Spec is speccing (for a Bladedmaster for instance) 37 Blades, 50 CD at RR5 to get 52 composite Blades (to reduce floor variance) and pushing CD as high as it can go to increase the ceiling damage (in this case composite 65 CD) using all CD styles.

Compare to a Blademaster who specs 50 Blades , 50 CD. Using all CD styles this Blademaster doesn't get any additional damage yet has wasted a whole bunch of spec points on Blades.

Conversely if you spec say 10 Blades 50 CD you will always have the same cap damage for CD styles but your "variance" increases wildly because your base spec has a much lower floor.
Fri 18 Jan 2019 12:49 PM by inoeth
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 6:43 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 6:21 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 5:23 PM
If it got changed in 1.69 then why was it stacking on live (at least until I left live) up to August 2016?

because thats 12 years after the change? i remember all the hunters back then were hyped because we were getting a spec af and because we could also buff that with this 20% buffbonus jewel
also watch old Lukiel videos he played with just his self des/quick but not the af

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_i4Bk2ybb0

If you look at my videos you can see that I have both AF buffs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7c_IS4e54

dude, you dont get it do you? your videos are all from "after the change" naturally you have spec af then....it got changed for the better not for worse!
Fri 18 Jan 2019 3:31 PM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 12:49 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 6:43 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 6:21 PM
because thats 12 years after the change? i remember all the hunters back then were hyped because we were getting a spec af and because we could also buff that with this 20% buffbonus jewel
also watch old Lukiel videos he played with just his self des/quick but not the af

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_i4Bk2ybb0

If you look at my videos you can see that I have both AF buffs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7c_IS4e54

dude, you dont get it do you? your videos are all from "after the change" naturally you have spec af then....it got changed for the better not for worse!

Dude you don't get it. It's stacking now on Phoenix. I will screenshot later and upload.
Fri 18 Jan 2019 7:39 PM by Thinal
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 12:11 AM
Tomthabom10 wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:41 PM
What is wyrd spec?

Long version:
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/wyrd---growth-rates

Short version (Drunken Ranger style of explaining):

In DAOC there is floor damage (the lowest amount that your styled hits and base damage will go).

Then there is ceiling damage (the highest that styled hits will go.)

When using a base style like Blades (such as Fireblade in Blades) your spec in Blades determines the lowest your Fireblade would go, as well as the highest it will go (floor and ceiling).

When using an "advanced" style like Celtic Dual or Crit Strike, if ONLY using advanced styles (such as Ice Storm or Perforate Artery) then your Blades spec will determine the floor and your CD or CS will determine the ceiling.

?? That's not even what your link said.

Styled damage is a multiplier. The RNG is invoked once for the initial hit, and the styled "+damage" is a result of multiplying that hit roll times the style multiplier. (The link gives details on how to calculate the multiplier.)

As for what is "variance," here's the formula from CamelotHerald:

DAMAGE_MODIFIER = LEVEL
* DAMAGE_TABLE / 10
* (1 + 0.01 * STATS)
* (0.9 + 0.1 * MAX(1, STRENGTH_RELIC_COUNT))
* (0.75 + 0.5 * MIN(ENEMY_LEVEL + 1, SPEC - 1) / (ENEMY_LEVEL + 1) + 0.01 * RANDOM(50)) <--!!!!
/ ENEMY_ARMOR
* (1 - ENEMY_BUFFED_ABSORB)
* (1 - ENEMY_RESISTANCE)

Note the line I marked with <--!!!!. Everything else falls off as a multiplier. If you're fighting a target == your own level and your composite weapon spec is 2 + your level, then your damage range is 0.75 + 0.5 * (1) + 0.01*RND(0..49) = 1.25 to 1.74 of "base." If you're level 50 and your composite weapon spec is zero (such as swinging a staff on a non-Friar), your damage range is 0.75 to 1.24 of "base". The style multiplier is multiplied by this result.

So depending on how you look at it, either CD affects neither floor nor ceiling (because it has no effect on the base range) or it affects BOTH floor and ceiling (because it's multiplied by the base range). These are not independent effects.

The "Wyrd spec" comes in because of the "MIN(...)" formula in the highlighted line. If your composite spec is above your target's level +2 (52 for RvR), the extra spec has no effect on this range. It does on the style multiplier only, if using a style from the weapon line, or none at all if not using a style from the weapon line.

...

Speaking of which, my rough estimate of effectiveness of weapon versus CD spec on overall DPS where weapon spec < composite 52 RvR, puts a point of CD roughly 1/2 as effective as a point of weapon when weapon styles (CD < weapon), or 2/3 as effective when using CD styles (CD > weapon). It depends greatly on the precise style growth rate, so this is just a rule of thumb, but it holds fairly well with a taunt style for 0.60ish growth rate.

As the marginal spec cost is directly proportional to its current value, that means that until your weapon spec has reached composite target's level + 2 (52 for RvR), your CD needs to be about 1/2 your weapon spec. So 30 pierce / 20 CD would be more optimal than 20 pierce / 30 CD, and less optimal than 32 pierce / 18 CD. (Note that this is about relative MARGINAL cost, not resulting value, and holds true no matter how much your gear and realm rank add to these specs, even if by differing amounts.)

That of course is not assuming plateaus for specific styles. CD has an appreciable plateau at 18 for the side stun, and blades has the 39 anytime combat speed reduction, so it can be useful to have CD over 1/2 of weapon or blades over twice CD to get those styles.

And of course, with enough points to where weapon >= 52 and CD >= weapon, another point of weapon adds nothing and another point of CD adds something, so one keeps going with CD to eventually reach the "full" Wyrd spec. This nuanced math isn't even in the realm of consideration for light tanks, just for point-hungry rogues.
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:00 PM by inoeth
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 3:31 PM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 12:49 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 6:43 PM
If you look at my videos you can see that I have both AF buffs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7c_IS4e54

dude, you dont get it do you? your videos are all from "after the change" naturally you have spec af then....it got changed for the better not for worse!

Dude you don't get it. It's stacking now on Phoenix. I will screenshot later and upload.

LOL i know it stacks here, just saying there was a time on live servers where it didnt....
do you even read what i write?
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:18 PM by Cadebrennus
Thinal wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 7:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 12:11 AM
Tomthabom10 wrote:
Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:41 PM
What is wyrd spec?

Long version:
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/wyrd---growth-rates

Short version (Drunken Ranger style of explaining):

In DAOC there is floor damage (the lowest amount that your styled hits and base damage will go).

Then there is ceiling damage (the highest that styled hits will go.)

When using a base style like Blades (such as Fireblade in Blades) your spec in Blades determines the lowest your Fireblade would go, as well as the highest it will go (floor and ceiling).

When using an "advanced" style like Celtic Dual or Crit Strike, if ONLY using advanced styles (such as Ice Storm or Perforate Artery) then your Blades spec will determine the floor and your CD or CS will determine the ceiling.

?? That's not even what your link said.

Styled damage is a multiplier. The RNG is invoked once for the initial hit, and the styled "+damage" is a result of multiplying that hit roll times the style multiplier. (The link gives details on how to calculate the multiplier.)

As for what is "variance," here's the formula from CamelotHerald:

DAMAGE_MODIFIER = LEVEL
* DAMAGE_TABLE / 10
* (1 + 0.01 * STATS)
* (0.9 + 0.1 * MAX(1, STRENGTH_RELIC_COUNT))
* (0.75 + 0.5 * MIN(ENEMY_LEVEL + 1, SPEC - 1) / (ENEMY_LEVEL + 1) + 0.01 * RANDOM(50)) <--!!!!
/ ENEMY_ARMOR
* (1 - ENEMY_BUFFED_ABSORB)
* (1 - ENEMY_RESISTANCE)

Note the line I marked with <--!!!!. Everything else falls off as a multiplier. If you're fighting a target == your own level and your composite weapon spec is 2 + your level, then your damage range is 0.75 + 0.5 * (1) + 0.01*RND(0..49) = 1.25 to 1.74 of "base." If you're level 50 and your composite weapon spec is zero (such as swinging a staff on a non-Friar), your damage range is 0.75 to 1.24 of "base". The style multiplier is multiplied by this result.

So depending on how you look at it, either CD affects neither floor nor ceiling (because it has no effect on the base range) or it affects BOTH floor and ceiling (because it's multiplied by the base range). These are not independent effects.

The "Wyrd spec" comes in because of the "MIN(...)" formula in the highlighted line. If your composite spec is above your target's level +2 (52 for RvR), the extra spec has no effect on this range. It does on the style multiplier only, if using a style from the weapon line, or none at all if not using a style from the weapon line.

...

Speaking of which, my rough estimate of effectiveness of weapon versus CD spec on overall DPS where weapon spec < composite 52 RvR, puts a point of CD roughly 1/2 as effective as a point of weapon when weapon styles (CD < weapon), or 2/3 as effective when using CD styles (CD > weapon). It depends greatly on the precise style growth rate, so this is just a rule of thumb, but it holds fairly well with a taunt style for 0.60ish growth rate.

As the marginal spec cost is directly proportional to its current value, that means that until your weapon spec has reached composite target's level + 2 (52 for RvR), your CD needs to be about 1/2 your weapon spec. So 30 pierce / 20 CD would be more optimal than 20 pierce / 30 CD, and less optimal than 32 pierce / 18 CD. (Note that this is about relative MARGINAL cost, not resulting value, and holds true no matter how much your gear and realm rank add to these specs, even if by differing amounts.)

That of course is not assuming plateaus for specific styles. CD has an appreciable plateau at 18 for the side stun, and blades has the 39 anytime combat speed reduction, so it can be useful to have CD over 1/2 of weapon or blades over twice CD to get those styles.

And of course, with enough points to where weapon >= 52 and CD >= weapon, another point of weapon adds nothing and another point of CD adds something, so one keeps going with CD to eventually reach the "full" Wyrd spec. This nuanced math isn't even in the realm of consideration for light tanks, just for point-hungry rogues.

Thanks for the math. I'm sure if someone wants to plug it into a spreadsheet then that would be a big help. Regarding the Wyrd Spec and floor/ceiling damage, I stand by what I said. If you are a 35 Blades, 50 CD Ranger or BM and doing unstyled swings, then yes your floor/ceiling will be determined solely by Blades (which is 35+15 at RR5). However any CD styled swings will have 35+15 floor and 50+15 ceiling, PLUS the GR from the particular CD styles you are using.
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:21 PM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:00 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 3:31 PM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 18 Jan 2019 12:49 PM
dude, you dont get it do you? your videos are all from "after the change" naturally you have spec af then....it got changed for the better not for worse!

Dude you don't get it. It's stacking now on Phoenix. I will screenshot later and upload.

LOL i know it stacks here, just saying there was a time on live servers where it didnt....
do you even read what i write?

Yes. If there was a time it didn't stack it would have to have been between TOA release and 2012, because that was the only time I wasn't playing. The whole time I played it did stack. Maybe you didn't read what I said which is that it always stacked when I played.
Mon 11 Mar 2019 4:58 PM by Slithic
What is the damage variance with stats?

Doesn't higher dex equal more bow damage?

Is Aug dex to the max worth it?

What is the breakpoints for dimishing returns on dex?
Mon 11 Mar 2019 6:19 PM by Horus
I would still like to hear some success stories with these high melee, low bow specs...Can you win even 50% of the time vs and equally matched SB or Infilt? I am not trying to sound incredulous, I would just truly like to know how it performs in the real world...

Because if you lose with the SB/infil have 20% health left vs me with high bow losing with them having 50% health left it is still a death...
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:19 AM by Sepphiroth75
RR 4 - 35 stealth 39 blades 37 bow 29 cd 31 pf ranger here and actually holding my own in rvr now.

Archery - At the moment 27 (last crit shot) bow does the same damage as 35-45 bow give or take a few percentage points. I am 35 bow now for rapid fire but before that was 40 and 45 bow which is not worth it what so ever. For the small increase you lose out on melee.

Stealth - 35 stealth gives mos6 which is gives solid speed.

Weapon - go 39 blades or pierce. You are going to need the higher damage. If you want to fight stealth go blades and visi’s pierce

CD - with the increased chance to land your offhand you could go 18 cd and it would be similar to go 25-27-cd pre cd buff. Imo 18 is the lowest to spec

PF - i would spec no less than 16 and no more than 31.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 1:56 PM by Horus
Sepphiroth75 wrote:
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:19 AM
RR 4 - 35 stealth 39 blades 37 bow 29 cd 31 pf ranger here and actually holding my own in rvr now.

Archery - At the moment 27 (last crit shot) bow does the same damage as 35-45 bow give or take a few percentage points. I am 35 bow now for rapid fire but before that was 40 and 45 bow which is not worth it what so ever. For the small increase you lose out on melee.

Stealth - 35 stealth gives mos6 which is gives solid speed.

Weapon - go 39 blades or pierce. You are going to need the higher damage. If you want to fight stealth go blades and visi’s pierce

CD - with the increased chance to land your offhand you could go 18 cd and it would be similar to go 25-27-cd pre cd buff. Imo 18 is the lowest to spec

PF - i would spec no less than 16 and no more than 31.

I recently respecced to:

RR5+ Keen
36 (+15) bow
36(+15) pierce
19 (+15) CD
35 (+15) stealth
42 PF ( I really wanted that last spec AF buff)

I could not give up Rapid Fire...it is just too valuable in this zergy environment.

Jury is still out, i have not had enough melee matchups to get a good feel but I still have yet to beat anyone. Only melee RA I have is purge but I do run extra buffs and insta heal pots. Fully templated. I'm still just not sure I am ever going to win a straight up fight. My only hope is the whole "hit them with the bow a few times 1st" scenario but that just does not happen often. Most of my deaths are being detected trying to move in stealth and responding to the 1st hit. Not sure I could ever win in that situation unless I have a high RR advantage and get lucky RNGs. I would do anything for Dodger or at least equal stealth detection. At least then for those matchups I might have a slight chance of survivability. I suppose I need to aim for IP although we know the assassin is just going to vanish anyway if things start to go my way.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:42 PM by waffel
I'm currently:
RR4.5
35 Stealth
35 Bow
42 Piercing
36 CD
21 PF

Being a pierce Luri, if I get found by an assassin I just sit. PA isn't even necessary. I've tried many times with Purge/IP and I don't even get close. I'd rather save purge/IP for fights that are even. I've given up hope a long time ago I'd ever win the fight so it doesn't even upset me anymore. All my enjoyable fights come in off-realm fighting (mid or alb when the task is in hib for instance) as the threat of assassins is nearly zero.

I don't think I'll ever go over 21 PF again. I've debated 36 but for all those points all i get is:
Extra str for the self buff, which would be nearly unnoticeable since i'm pierce
Higher self buff AF (I run an AF charge anyway, so its pointless)
Higher dex/quick buff (again, I run a charge anyway)
Faster run speed (nice, but so situational)
Higher DA buff (the only reason)

For all those extra points I gain from 21 PF I'd rather have higher weaponskill, more style damage, and swing and land my offhand more.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:05 PM by Slithic
POTS and Charges are better then anything in Pathfinding .. why spec it at all? Speed burst?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:41 PM by The Skies Asunder
I am currently only rr3L2, don't have a template, and my body resist is 1% (Though everything else is fine, other than not having the correct procs). So take this knowing that.

Currently Specced:
39 Blades
36 Stealth
35 Bow
42 CD
12 PF

I found PF pretty pointless with buff potions and charges, and only used enough points to get a speed burst at all, plus the left overs that couldn't go anywhere else. CD adds a lot of damage in melee, especially after the buff. I have won a few stealth fights without Purge/IP being up, but I could easily count them on one hand. Every other stealth fight I have won was still because of Purge/IP. 1% body resist makes this a really steep hill to climb. Having high melee specs helps too, but I am tempted to lower bow and try an even higher melee spec. Giving up rapid fire sounds like a good way to lose RPS in zerg fights though.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 2:35 PM by waffel
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 11:37 AM
Dual Wielding Secrets
This is where the good stuff is. Yes, this claim has been extensively tested. If you don’t believe it rack up some log time on the dummies and see for yourself. This is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. When you use a style, whether it is Celtic Dual or Blades or Pierce, you will always swing at the mainhand speed, regardless of whether or not your offhand swings too. ALWAYS. You will never ever attack with the offhand by itself with a styled swing. The speeds of both weapons will never average each other out. So, if you have enough endurance to do nothing but styled swings, then choose a main hand weapon whose speed suits you (more on that later), and always go with the slowest offhand you can find. Why? A slower offhand will have higher DPS because now, ITS SWING SPEED DOES NOT MATTER. That also goes for your Damage Add. The Damage add is tied to the potential delay (speed) of your weapon, so to crank up that Damage Add number, you need a slower weapon. And if the weapon is going to be swinging at the speed of the mainhand weapon regardless of everything else, why not go for the bigger number? So, my setup weapon-wise is thus:

So I just tested this and it does not seem to be accurate.
10x styled swings:
4.3 speed MH swinging styled on its own:
29.11 seconds
4.3 speed MH weapon + 3.3 speed OH weapon swinging styled:
27.33 seconds
4.3 speed MH weapon + 2.6 speed OH weapon swinging styled:
24.60 seconds

So it looks like swing speed averages on styled swings as well, so apparently fast vs slow mainhand is a personal preference as the damage all averages the same anyway.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 4:56 PM by Cadebrennus
waffel wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 2:35 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 11:37 AM
Dual Wielding Secrets
This is where the good stuff is. Yes, this claim has been extensively tested. If you don’t believe it rack up some log time on the dummies and see for yourself. This is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. When you use a style, whether it is Celtic Dual or Blades or Pierce, you will always swing at the mainhand speed, regardless of whether or not your offhand swings too. ALWAYS. You will never ever attack with the offhand by itself with a styled swing. The speeds of both weapons will never average each other out. So, if you have enough endurance to do nothing but styled swings, then choose a main hand weapon whose speed suits you (more on that later), and always go with the slowest offhand you can find. Why? A slower offhand will have higher DPS because now, ITS SWING SPEED DOES NOT MATTER. That also goes for your Damage Add. The Damage add is tied to the potential delay (speed) of your weapon, so to crank up that Damage Add number, you need a slower weapon. And if the weapon is going to be swinging at the speed of the mainhand weapon regardless of everything else, why not go for the bigger number? So, my setup weapon-wise is thus:

So I just tested this and it does not seem to be accurate.
10x styled swings:
4.3 speed MH swinging styled on its own:
29.11 seconds
4.3 speed MH weapon + 3.3 speed OH weapon swinging styled:
27.33 seconds
4.3 speed MH weapon + 2.6 speed OH weapon swinging styled:
24.60 seconds

So it looks like swing speed averages on styled swings as well, so apparently fast vs slow mainhand is a personal preference as the damage all averages the same anyway.

You are correct. I refuted my own claim here in another thread I made about dual wield/Celtic Dual. I just haven't updated the guide because I haven't been playing
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:04 PM by Cadebrennus
waffel wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 2:35 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 11:37 AM
Dual Wielding Secrets
This is where the good stuff is. Yes, this claim has been extensively tested. If you don’t believe it rack up some log time on the dummies and see for yourself. This is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. When you use a style, whether it is Celtic Dual or Blades or Pierce, you will always swing at the mainhand speed, regardless of whether or not your offhand swings too. ALWAYS. You will never ever attack with the offhand by itself with a styled swing. The speeds of both weapons will never average each other out. So, if you have enough endurance to do nothing but styled swings, then choose a main hand weapon whose speed suits you (more on that later), and always go with the slowest offhand you can find. Why? A slower offhand will have higher DPS because now, ITS SWING SPEED DOES NOT MATTER. That also goes for your Damage Add. The Damage add is tied to the potential delay (speed) of your weapon, so to crank up that Damage Add number, you need a slower weapon. And if the weapon is going to be swinging at the speed of the mainhand weapon regardless of everything else, why not go for the bigger number? So, my setup weapon-wise is thus:

So I just tested this and it does not seem to be accurate.
10x styled swings:
4.3 speed MH swinging styled on its own:
29.11 seconds
4.3 speed MH weapon + 3.3 speed OH weapon swinging styled:
27.33 seconds
4.3 speed MH weapon + 2.6 speed OH weapon swinging styled:
24.60 seconds

So it looks like swing speed averages on styled swings as well, so apparently fast vs slow mainhand is a personal preference as the damage all averages the same anyway.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3995&hilit=Drunken+dual+wielding
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:12 PM by waffel
Great! I appreciate you coming back to the thread and linking your updated findings.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:07 AM by Cadebrennus
waffel wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:12 PM
Great! I appreciate you coming back to the thread and linking your updated findings.

No problem. Unlike many (most) vociferous players I don't advocate solely for a class based on selfish interests. If I am wrong I will say so. As seen above I will retest something and prove myself wrong. I will admit when something is OP'ed even at my own expense.

However Phoenix is not that sort of place for honest discussion for most players who would rather have fun at the expense of others.
Sat 6 Apr 2019 9:19 AM by gop
What about
35 archery
35 stelth
16 pathfinding
36 piercing
44 celtic dual
?
Thanks
Sat 6 Apr 2019 6:42 PM by semadin
gop wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 9:19 AM
What about
35 archery
35 stelth
16 pathfinding
36 piercing
44 celtic dual
?
Thanks

If you're running buffpots/charges then low PF is just fine.

I'd still recommend blades regardless of your race...the penalty to pierce is severe.
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:03 PM by gop
semadin wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 6:42 PM
gop wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 9:19 AM
What about
35 archery
35 stelth
16 pathfinding
36 piercing
44 celtic dual
?
Thanks

If you're running buffpots/charges then low PF is just fine.

I'd still recommend blades regardless of your race...the penalty to pierce is severe.

If i spec blades is better celt or shar?
And do you prefer 50blades 27dual or 44dual 36blade?
Ty for the answer!
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:24 PM by Drominchen
gop wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:03 PM
semadin wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 6:42 PM
gop wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 9:19 AM
What about
35 archery
35 stelth
16 pathfinding
36 piercing
44 celtic dual
?
Thanks

If you're running buffpots/charges then low PF is just fine.

I'd still recommend blades regardless of your race...the penalty to pierce is severe.

If i spec blades is better celt or shar?
And do you prefer 50blades 27dual or 44dual 36blade?
Ty for the answer!

39 blades style spectrum blade is really strong for a anytimer follow up (30% ats debuff) so imo one should try to build around 39 blades.

I will most likely spec
39 blades
35 stealth
50 cd (full side chain is very strong if you can open a fight with it because of 34% ats debuff)
21 bow
16 pf

or
39 blades
35 stealth
45 cd
27 bow
21 pf

or
39 blades
35 stealth
41 cd
35 bow
17 pf

dunno if quick shot is really worth it. On my melee hunter the bow damage at 32 bow is absolutely ok to kill squishy targets and for hard targets you will need every point you can get in high melee spec.
Sat 6 Apr 2019 8:13 PM by semadin
Drominchen wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:24 PM
gop wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:03 PM
semadin wrote:
Sat 6 Apr 2019 6:42 PM
If you're running buffpots/charges then low PF is just fine.

I'd still recommend blades regardless of your race...the penalty to pierce is severe.

If i spec blades is better celt or shar?
And do you prefer 50blades 27dual or 44dual 36blade?
Ty for the answer!

39 blades style spectrum blade is really strong for a anytimer follow up (30% ats debuff) so imo one should try to build around 39 blades.

I will most likely spec
39 blades
35 stealth
50 cd (full side chain is very strong if you can open a fight with it because of 34% ats debuff)
21 bow
16 pf

or
39 blades
35 stealth
45 cd
27 bow
21 pf

or
39 blades
35 stealth
41 cd
35 bow
17 pf

dunno if quick shot is really worth it. On my melee hunter the bow damage at 32 bow is absolutely ok to kill squishy targets and for hard targets you will need every point you can get in high melee spec.

I'm personally a fan of going for the weapon line styles over the CD styles... Both blades and cd have 2 part anytime chains, and while the growth rates are effectively the same (cd technically is higher but by 0.01 on each), the defense penalty for blades anytime is less, and then the followup spectrum has the highly valuable attack speed debuff. Beyond that for CD the only way to get full value out of the styles is 3 part chains...which are quite difficult to hit regularly.

So after looking a those, the only reason to go higher CD is to bump your offhand % as much as possible, but there's a diminishing return to the benefit of each level there.

If I was going 16 PF I'd be heavily eyeballing 50 blades, and give that a good shot.

35 st, 35 bow, 16 pf, 50 blades, 27 cd looks pretty beastly, and should take your weaponskill over the top of most people you end up fighting.

I think regardless it's worth playing around with different specs to find out what works for you (I'm terrible at landing positional styles in the middle of 1 on 1 combat, so speccing to rely on those is not great for me).
Sat 6 Apr 2019 9:50 PM by Cadebrennus
If you're going melee, I highly recommend 50 Blades. The growth rate is the same as the level 50 CD style yet it's only 2nd in chain and from a better positional (hitting runners).

Furthermore, unless you're going 46+ of for a weird spec I would not go any higher than 9 PF for the 1st run speed boost. It basically gives you a better version of charge (sorry light tanks, your version sucks), albeit one that can be dropped by something as trivial as a harsh look in your general direction.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 4:16 PM by waffel
Currently on the fence regarding my spec:
35 Bow/Stealth (not worried about these)

42 Pierce
36 CD
21 PF

I decided to try 21 PF instead of 36 to squeeze more points into melee. For the most part I'm very happy. I did 42/36 to squeeze all the spec points I could whereas I have 1 point left over.

However, I'm considering trying 27 PF and lowering CD to make up for it. I'm not not sure getting more Damage Add, a tiny bit more spec armor, and a tiny bit more weapon skill from spec STR Is worth the loss in CD chance and damage.

I guess I'm not sure how big of a difference 30 vs 36 CD would be in swing change and damage.

I also am planning on staying pierce as I'm a Luri, and I do 100% of my fighting in Uppland/Midgard so I'm fighting a ton of chain wearers and very few assassins.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 4:21 PM by Tillbeast
waffel wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 4:16 PM
Currently on the fence regarding my spec:
35 Bow/Stealth (not worried about these)

42 Pierce
36 CD
21 PF

I decided to try 21 PF instead of 36 to squeeze more points into melee. For the most part I'm very happy. I did 42/36 to squeeze all the spec points I could whereas I have 1 point left over.

However, I'm considering trying 27 PF and lowering CD to make up for it. I'm not not sure getting more Damage Add, a tiny bit more spec armor, and a tiny bit more weapon skill from spec STR Is worth the loss in CD chance and damage.

I guess I'm not sure how big of a difference 30 vs 36 CD would be in swing change and damage.

I also am planning on staying pierce as I'm a Luri, and I do 100% of my fighting in Uppland/Midgard so I'm fighting a ton of chain wearers and very few assassins.

Your spec will be virtually irrelevant. Uppland is populated by mostly level 20-48's so as long as you 50 with a reasonable template it will not make much difference.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:35 PM by Auranyte
waffel wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 4:16 PM
Currently on the fence regarding my spec:
35 Bow/Stealth (not worried about these)

42 Pierce
36 CD
21 PF

I decided to try 21 PF instead of 36 to squeeze more points into melee. For the most part I'm very happy. I did 42/36 to squeeze all the spec points I could whereas I have 1 point left over.

However, I'm considering trying 27 PF and lowering CD to make up for it. I'm not not sure getting more Damage Add, a tiny bit more spec armor, and a tiny bit more weapon skill from spec STR Is worth the loss in CD chance and damage.

I guess I'm not sure how big of a difference 30 vs 36 CD would be in swing change and damage.

I also am planning on staying pierce as I'm a Luri, and I do 100% of my fighting in Uppland/Midgard so I'm fighting a ton of chain wearers and very few assassins.

Is there any real reason for going 42 pierce though? You are 2 points short of the 44 evade chain style, and 3 points past the 2nd in side chain. You could drop that from 42 to 39 and split the points between cd/pf however you wanted. Not sure its worth worrying about "wasted points" if you are trying to hit a certain threshold.

I have a couple of spec ideas for myself, one of which is kinda close to what you are trying here.

35 bow
35 stealth
39 weapon (Blades for me for the haste debuff)
36 PF (2nd best damage add, 2nd best spec af, +41 dex/qui buff, +42 str buff, and the 180% movement speed shout)
26 CD

I also have a spec that ignores CD and goes 40bow 40 path 39 blades 35 stealth. Just not completely sold on it yet.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 10:19 PM by waffel
Auranyte wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:35 PM
waffel wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 4:16 PM
Currently on the fence regarding my spec:
35 Bow/Stealth (not worried about these)

42 Pierce
36 CD
21 PF

I decided to try 21 PF instead of 36 to squeeze more points into melee. For the most part I'm very happy. I did 42/36 to squeeze all the spec points I could whereas I have 1 point left over.

However, I'm considering trying 27 PF and lowering CD to make up for it. I'm not not sure getting more Damage Add, a tiny bit more spec armor, and a tiny bit more weapon skill from spec STR Is worth the loss in CD chance and damage.

I guess I'm not sure how big of a difference 30 vs 36 CD would be in swing change and damage.

I also am planning on staying pierce as I'm a Luri, and I do 100% of my fighting in Uppland/Midgard so I'm fighting a ton of chain wearers and very few assassins.

Is there any real reason for going 42 pierce though? You are 2 points short of the 44 evade chain style, and 3 points past the 2nd in side chain. You could drop that from 42 to 39 and split the points between cd/pf however you wanted. Not sure its worth worrying about "wasted points" if you are trying to hit a certain threshold.

I have a couple of spec ideas for myself, one of which is kinda close to what you are trying here.

35 bow
35 stealth
39 weapon (Blades for me for the haste debuff)
36 PF (2nd best damage add, 2nd best spec af, +41 dex/qui buff, +42 str buff, and the 180% movement speed shout)
26 CD

I also have a spec that ignores CD and goes 40bow 40 path 39 blades 35 stealth. Just not completely sold on it yet.

I guess my reasoning (for not 44 pierce) is trying to juggle side stun + follow up, rear pierce style + follow up attack speed debuff, 3 part anytime chain for attack speed debuff, and diamondback + follow up was too much. I’d prefer to have it all, but trying to juggle all that while positioning in combat would drive me nuts. Maybe it’s easier with a macro keyboard?

It kinda comes down to lower CD/higher PF or higher CD/lower PF. I’m flush with cash so might as well try higher PF for a bit.

I’ve also thought about dropping CD altogether and rocking a small shield. Seems decent when I fight minstrels using small shields, and Luris have way higher dex.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 11:47 PM by Auranyte
waffel wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 10:19 PM
I guess my reasoning (for not 44 pierce) is trying to juggle side stun + follow up, rear pierce style + follow up attack speed debuff, 3 part anytime chain for attack speed debuff, and diamondback + follow up was too much. I’d prefer to have it all, but trying to juggle all that while positioning in combat would drive me nuts. Maybe it’s easier with a macro keyboard?

It kinda comes down to lower CD/higher PF or higher CD/lower PF. I’m flush with cash so might as well try higher PF for a bit.

I’ve also thought about dropping CD altogether and rocking a small shield. Seems decent when I fight minstrels using small shields, and Luris have way higher dex.



Ok now I understand. Yeah sadly you won't have the points for dragonspider at 44 unless you drop something. You can only get to 43 pierce with 29cd and cd27 pf. So the question is, which style do you see yourself getting off more often? The side chain or evade chain. If its the evade chain you can drop CD down to 28 (with 27 PF) and get Dragonspider. If you see yourself getting the side chain off more you can go 31/31 CD/PF. Getting the yellow spec af and some more offhand swings. (I consider CD as a point dump after 18 spec personally)

Another thing I noticed that you can attempt to try. If you are evading a fair amount after you stun someone with diamondback and they have stun immunity you can switch to using the CD evade chain. The 2nd in the CD evade chain has a 21% haste debuff, 1% less than the 3rd style in pierces anytime. Hell depending on how much you can respec... you could even try lower pierce and higher cd and use the cd styles. The 2 part cd anytime chain has better growth rates to the first 2 parts of the pierce anytime chain.

Honestly I feel like pierce has some terrible style chains compared to blades and cd.
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:49 PM by Cadebrennus
At this point in the Phoenix server PF should only be specced extremely low (just enough for the first speed burst) leaving more spec points for other things, or extremely high (46+) in order to have higher buffs than other soloers.

Somewhere in the middle is simply a waste of points.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:37 AM by semadin
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:49 PM
At this point in the Phoenix server PF should only be specced extremely low (just enough for the first speed burst) leaving more spec points for other things, or extremely high (46+) in order to have higher buffs than other soloers.

Somewhere in the middle is simply a waste of points.

Well I think even higher PF is a waste, unless you are focusing on bow and not using charges (to efficiently max out your bow damage via dex + damage add).

When it comes to vs other soloers, it's not just about the buffs you have, but your buffs compared to theirs, and I don't think the amount of stat buff you can achieve over other soloers (by going high PF) is worth the spec points compared to just being equally buffed and putting those spec points into melee spec lines, where you gain far more significant benefits (WS, damage, styles, offhand %).

It's especially a waste when you run into people with charge buffs - though this dynamic will change when the devs figure out how they want to change the charge buffs into something else. But even ignoring charge buffs, the baseline buff that's easy to achieve via combined forces pot warps the value of all the buffs in the PF line.

The one situation I'd recommend is when someone is starting fresh and going for one focused dimension - either melee or bow - and not expecting to do well in one or the other (and not spending points in one or the other). This saves needing to spend a bunch on buffs, and gives you a good start.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 11:22 AM by Kaosfury
appreciate all the research and updates that you do for this guide Cade. You're a good man
Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:10 PM by dbeattie71
semadin wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:37 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:49 PM
At this point in the Phoenix server PF should only be specced extremely low (just enough for the first speed burst) leaving more spec points for other things, or extremely high (46+) in order to have higher buffs than other soloers.

Somewhere in the middle is simply a waste of points.

Well I think even higher PF is a waste, unless you are focusing on bow and not using charges (to efficiently max out your bow damage via dex + damage add).

When it comes to vs other soloers, it's not just about the buffs you have, but your buffs compared to theirs, and I don't think the amount of stat buff you can achieve over other soloers (by going high PF) is worth the spec points compared to just being equally buffed and putting those spec points into melee spec lines, where you gain far more significant benefits (WS, damage, styles, offhand %).

It's especially a waste when you run into people with charge buffs - though this dynamic will change when the devs figure out how they want to change the charge buffs into something else. But even ignoring charge buffs, the baseline buff that's easy to achieve via combined forces pot warps the value of all the buffs in the PF line.

The one situation I'd recommend is when someone is starting fresh and going for one focused dimension - either melee or bow - and not expecting to do well in one or the other (and not spending points in one or the other). This saves needing to spend a bunch on buffs, and gives you a good start.

I have 50 PF and with buffs RAs have 322str. 34 extra str from 50 PF which with aug str would cost 20 points. When I went lower PF and higher weapon I didn’t have the same success as 50PF.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:52 PM by Dominus
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:10 PM
I have 50 PF and with buffs RAs have 322str. 34 extra str from 50 PF which with aug str would cost 20 points. When I went lower PF and higher weapon I didn’t have the same success as 50PF.


Would you be able to take a screen snip of your self buffed stats and post here? Please also list your RAs. I'm also a Shar and with Aug Str V im only 300 str.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:44 PM by waffel
I struggle to see how you can be effective in melee with 50 PF, 35 Bow, and 35 Stealth. Unless you gimp your bow or stealth, at which point it seems like you're a weaker visi or worse assassin? I must be wrong since you said its working for you, please tell us your secrets!
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:50 PM by dbeattie71
waffel wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:44 PM
I struggle to see how you can be effective in melee with 50 PF, 35 Bow, and 35 Stealth. Unless you gimp your bow or stealth, at which point it seems like you're a weaker visi or worse assassin? I must be wrong since you said its working for you, please tell us your secrets!

Bow is 13, I have a shade that I played to around 700k, I just got that on the Ranger. I mainly fight other stealthers, when they don’t vanish or sos away, which happens almost every fight now it seems. But comparing the two, the Ranger is the more effective killer.

This was four fights in a row the other night in DF, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFv2h8BBVk

50 PF was Cads idea and it turned out to work really well, of course I picked Shar as the race and put 15 into str and 10 into con. It’s the thug Ranger build 😀. I have over 1800 hits so getting PAd for 400 sucks but if purge and IP are up I can still win.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 4:37 PM by paul_g
Tried basically every spec and this is what I will take to the finish line.

34 - Stealth - 44 CD - 39 Blades - 39 Bow - 9 PF

Leaves 0 spec points remaining and with charges+ combined pretty satisifed with bow and melee damage.

Went with slowest OH - Arcanite Crescent and def the best over a fast OH.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 4:41 PM by Dominus
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:50 PM
This was four fights in a row the other night in DF, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFv2h8BBVk



that was SO Painful to watch... 4 vanishes in a row??? And everyone wonders why people are complaining about this get out of jail free card??

I would still like to see your overall self buffed stats with your RAs.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 4:57 PM by semadin
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:50 PM
waffel wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:44 PM
I struggle to see how you can be effective in melee with 50 PF, 35 Bow, and 35 Stealth. Unless you gimp your bow or stealth, at which point it seems like you're a weaker visi or worse assassin? I must be wrong since you said its working for you, please tell us your secrets!

Bow is 13, I have a shade that I played to around 700k, I just got that on the Ranger. I mainly fight other stealthers, when they don’t vanish or sos away, which happens almost every fight now it seems. But comparing the two, the Ranger is the more effective killer.

This was four fights in a row the other night in DF, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFv2h8BBVk

50 PF was Cads idea and it turned out to work really well, of course I picked Shar as the race and put 15 into str and 10 into con. It’s the thug Ranger build 😀. I have over 1800 hits so getting PAd for 400 sucks but if purge and IP are up I can still win.

I should have clarified my comment was regarding Rangers who wish to have decent Bow capability and be decent in melee.

For a blade ranger, because of that base strength, yes there's value in PF. Also I'd say as a blade ranger there's less value in more points in the combined melee spec lines, since you're using blade styles the only thing CD does is provide offhand %.

Your example of a blade melee ranger is like the opposite focus on a bow ranger, where high PF also makes sense to max out bow damage. The difference there is your ability to actually successfully kill doesn't really increase with the PF investment, just bow damage (and still marginally I'd argue).

Your sacrifice of the bow line allows the investment over the top. If Rangers could sacrifice in the melee line to invest in their bow supported by PF then it would be a little bit of a different story.

On the whole this doesn't change the warped value of PF buffs in comparison to what everyone is able to run around with solo - but yours is a good demonstration of when it's a valuable investment.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 6:40 PM by Horus
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:50 PM
waffel wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:44 PM
I struggle to see how you can be effective in melee with 50 PF, 35 Bow, and 35 Stealth. Unless you gimp your bow or stealth, at which point it seems like you're a weaker visi or worse assassin? I must be wrong since you said its working for you, please tell us your secrets!

Bow is 13, I have a shade that I played to around 700k, I just got that on the Ranger. I mainly fight other stealthers, when they don’t vanish or sos away, which happens almost every fight now it seems. But comparing the two, the Ranger is the more effective killer.

This was four fights in a row the other night in DF, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFv2h8BBVk

50 PF was Cads idea and it turned out to work really well, of course I picked Shar as the race and put 15 into str and 10 into con. It’s the thug Ranger build 😀. I have over 1800 hits so getting PAd for 400 sucks but if purge and IP are up I can still win.

I think you've stumbled into something pretty novel...
However...
On one hand you can now effectively deal with the biggest bane of Rangers which are SBs and Infilts...
Yet on the other, I don't think you are really playing the class the way many people who choose a Ranger desire to play. If so they would have chosen a nightshade...

Which is "right or wrong" is a more a philosophical discussion. I just think most who choose an archer class are hoping for an effective "archer" not forced down the route of speccing a solid melee class with archery as an after thought..but maybe the old DaoC archetype is dead on Phoenix.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:32 PM by dbeattie71
RA's:
LW, Tireless
Purge 3
Aug Str 4
MOP 2
IP2
Toughness 2
Mastery of the Arcane 2

I'm going to respec RA's and get Aug Str 5 though, at RR5 I had RA's figured out and after when I'd get a point I'd put it in Mastery of the Arcane or MOP until I respec.

[attachment=0]stats2.png[/attachment][attachment=1]stats1.png[/attachment]
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:35 PM by dbeattie71
Horus wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 6:40 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:50 PM
waffel wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:44 PM
I struggle to see how you can be effective in melee with 50 PF, 35 Bow, and 35 Stealth. Unless you gimp your bow or stealth, at which point it seems like you're a weaker visi or worse assassin? I must be wrong since you said its working for you, please tell us your secrets!

Bow is 13, I have a shade that I played to around 700k, I just got that on the Ranger. I mainly fight other stealthers, when they don’t vanish or sos away, which happens almost every fight now it seems. But comparing the two, the Ranger is the more effective killer.

This was four fights in a row the other night in DF, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFv2h8BBVk

50 PF was Cads idea and it turned out to work really well, of course I picked Shar as the race and put 15 into str and 10 into con. It’s the thug Ranger build 😀. I have over 1800 hits so getting PAd for 400 sucks but if purge and IP are up I can still win.

I think you've stumbled into something pretty novel...
However...
On one hand you can now effectively deal with the biggest bane of Rangers which are SBs and Infilts...
Yet on the other, I don't think you are really playing the class the way many people who choose a Ranger desire to play. If so they would have chosen a nightshade...

Which is "right or wrong" is a more a philosophical discussion. I just think most who choose an archer class are hoping for an effective "archer" not forced down the route of speccing a solid melee class with archery as an after thought..but maybe the old DaoC archetype is dead on Phoenix.

I agree with that 100%. My keen shade is fun but I didn't like having to get Aug str 6 to be on par with SBs and Infs. This was an experiment that I didn't think would work. I think one could do the same with a sword hunter too but I'll let someone else try that.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:41 PM by dbeattie71
semadin wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 4:57 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:50 PM
waffel wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:44 PM
I struggle to see how you can be effective in melee with 50 PF, 35 Bow, and 35 Stealth. Unless you gimp your bow or stealth, at which point it seems like you're a weaker visi or worse assassin? I must be wrong since you said its working for you, please tell us your secrets!

Bow is 13, I have a shade that I played to around 700k, I just got that on the Ranger. I mainly fight other stealthers, when they don’t vanish or sos away, which happens almost every fight now it seems. But comparing the two, the Ranger is the more effective killer.

This was four fights in a row the other night in DF, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFv2h8BBVk

50 PF was Cads idea and it turned out to work really well, of course I picked Shar as the race and put 15 into str and 10 into con. It’s the thug Ranger build 😀. I have over 1800 hits so getting PAd for 400 sucks but if purge and IP are up I can still win.

I should have clarified my comment was regarding Rangers who wish to have decent Bow capability and be decent in melee.

For a blade ranger, because of that base strength, yes there's value in PF. Also I'd say as a blade ranger there's less value in more points in the combined melee spec lines, since you're using blade styles the only thing CD does is provide offhand %.

Your example of a blade melee ranger is like the opposite focus on a bow ranger, where high PF also makes sense to max out bow damage. The difference there is your ability to actually successfully kill doesn't really increase with the PF investment, just bow damage (and still marginally I'd argue).

Your sacrifice of the bow line allows the investment over the top. If Rangers could sacrifice in the melee line to invest in their bow supported by PF then it would be a little bit of a different story.

On the whole this doesn't change the warped value of PF buffs in comparison to what everyone is able to run around with solo - but yours is a good demonstration of when it's a valuable investment.

And it says something, I think, when an archer class specs only 13 in bow, I tried 35 bow once and between bubble, misses, blocks, evades, and procs interrupting (dumb), I threw bow in the trash. Not really but I only use it for interrupting and stuff like that.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:57 PM by Cadebrennus
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:41 PM
semadin wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 4:57 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:50 PM
Bow is 13, I have a shade that I played to around 700k, I just got that on the Ranger. I mainly fight other stealthers, when they don’t vanish or sos away, which happens almost every fight now it seems. But comparing the two, the Ranger is the more effective killer.

This was four fights in a row the other night in DF, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFv2h8BBVk

50 PF was Cads idea and it turned out to work really well, of course I picked Shar as the race and put 15 into str and 10 into con. It’s the thug Ranger build 😀. I have over 1800 hits so getting PAd for 400 sucks but if purge and IP are up I can still win.

I should have clarified my comment was regarding Rangers who wish to have decent Bow capability and be decent in melee.

For a blade ranger, because of that base strength, yes there's value in PF. Also I'd say as a blade ranger there's less value in more points in the combined melee spec lines, since you're using blade styles the only thing CD does is provide offhand %.

Your example of a blade melee ranger is like the opposite focus on a bow ranger, where high PF also makes sense to max out bow damage. The difference there is your ability to actually successfully kill doesn't really increase with the PF investment, just bow damage (and still marginally I'd argue).

Your sacrifice of the bow line allows the investment over the top. If Rangers could sacrifice in the melee line to invest in their bow supported by PF then it would be a little bit of a different story.

On the whole this doesn't change the warped value of PF buffs in comparison to what everyone is able to run around with solo - but yours is a good demonstration of when it's a valuable investment.

And it says something, I think, when an archer class specs only 13 in bow, I tried 35 bow once and between bubble, misses, blocks, evades, and procs interrupting (dumb), I threw bow in the trash. Not really but I only use it for interrupting and stuff like that.

Sad, but true. This is why I don't bother with the Ranger anymore. Sure, my Ranger has always been primarily melee (even on live) but what's the point of playing a bow-wielding class at all if that's the thing that they are the worst at, regardless of the amount of spec points they put into it? Do a /groundset 600, and that's the extra range a Ranger has over a shortbow wielding Blademaster. Do a /groundset 700 to see the Scout's "advantage" and do a /groundset 500 to see how much farther a Hunter can shoot than a shortbow wielding class or a caster. It's not significant.

Between all of the Archery counters, think about the actual effective dps per shot over time (including BT, PBT, block, evade, etc.) and then compare it to melee or magic. It's not impressive or even worrisome for the targets, even at high Archery spec levels.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 8:23 PM by Dominus


Added MOA2... bumped str to 305, dex to 303, con.. nice!
Wed 24 Apr 2019 9:44 PM by semadin
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:41 PM
semadin wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 4:57 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:50 PM
Bow is 13, I have a shade that I played to around 700k, I just got that on the Ranger. I mainly fight other stealthers, when they don’t vanish or sos away, which happens almost every fight now it seems. But comparing the two, the Ranger is the more effective killer.

This was four fights in a row the other night in DF, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFv2h8BBVk

50 PF was Cads idea and it turned out to work really well, of course I picked Shar as the race and put 15 into str and 10 into con. It’s the thug Ranger build 😀. I have over 1800 hits so getting PAd for 400 sucks but if purge and IP are up I can still win.

I should have clarified my comment was regarding Rangers who wish to have decent Bow capability and be decent in melee.

For a blade ranger, because of that base strength, yes there's value in PF. Also I'd say as a blade ranger there's less value in more points in the combined melee spec lines, since you're using blade styles the only thing CD does is provide offhand %.

Your example of a blade melee ranger is like the opposite focus on a bow ranger, where high PF also makes sense to max out bow damage. The difference there is your ability to actually successfully kill doesn't really increase with the PF investment, just bow damage (and still marginally I'd argue).

Your sacrifice of the bow line allows the investment over the top. If Rangers could sacrifice in the melee line to invest in their bow supported by PF then it would be a little bit of a different story.

On the whole this doesn't change the warped value of PF buffs in comparison to what everyone is able to run around with solo - but yours is a good demonstration of when it's a valuable investment.

And it says something, I think, when an archer class specs only 13 in bow, I tried 35 bow once and between bubble, misses, blocks, evades, and procs interrupting (dumb), I threw bow in the trash. Not really but I only use it for interrupting and stuff like that.

Yea that part of archery is pretty frustrating. It's remarkable how much a primary ability can be negated like that.

Right now i'm being stubborn with it personally. I rolled luri ranger because that's what I played on live for nearly 15 years... I remember playing one during this time period and it was still a bit different - likely owing to the increase in game knowledge, resources, QoL improvements here, and the fact that most people playing this game are at the very least know all these things.

I am noticing that its still early days, and there are a lot of non-optimized targets (non-temped / unbuffed) which a buffed archer can rip through w/ bow. So for now I'm enjoying a taste of the old days, and accept that sometimes a skald is going to evade my crit shot...i'll bitch about it and move on.

Fortunately in the future, when everyone is running around temped and optimized to the max - assuming they do nothing with archery here - i can race-respec and all that (if still necessary).
Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:21 PM by cere2
semadin wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 9:44 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:41 PM
semadin wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 4:57 PM
I should have clarified my comment was regarding Rangers who wish to have decent Bow capability and be decent in melee.

For a blade ranger, because of that base strength, yes there's value in PF. Also I'd say as a blade ranger there's less value in more points in the combined melee spec lines, since you're using blade styles the only thing CD does is provide offhand %.

Your example of a blade melee ranger is like the opposite focus on a bow ranger, where high PF also makes sense to max out bow damage. The difference there is your ability to actually successfully kill doesn't really increase with the PF investment, just bow damage (and still marginally I'd argue).

Your sacrifice of the bow line allows the investment over the top. If Rangers could sacrifice in the melee line to invest in their bow supported by PF then it would be a little bit of a different story.

On the whole this doesn't change the warped value of PF buffs in comparison to what everyone is able to run around with solo - but yours is a good demonstration of when it's a valuable investment.

And it says something, I think, when an archer class specs only 13 in bow, I tried 35 bow once and between bubble, misses, blocks, evades, and procs interrupting (dumb), I threw bow in the trash. Not really but I only use it for interrupting and stuff like that.

Yea that part of archery is pretty frustrating. It's remarkable how much a primary ability can be negated like that.

Right now i'm being stubborn with it personally. I rolled luri ranger because that's what I played on live for nearly 15 years... I remember playing one during this time period and it was still a bit different - likely owing to the increase in game knowledge, resources, QoL improvements here, and the fact that most people playing this game are at the very least know all these things.

I am noticing that its still early days, and there are a lot of non-optimized targets (non-temped / unbuffed) which a buffed archer can rip through w/ bow. So for now I'm enjoying a taste of the old days, and accept that sometimes a skald is going to evade my crit shot...i'll bitch about it and move on.

Fortunately in the future, when everyone is running around temped and optimized to the max - assuming they do nothing with archery here - i can race-respec and all that (if still necessary).

I'm right there with ya. I made a shar, went full on melee and it's ok...but honestly the downtime once you have used purge/IP is just lame. Figured I might as well just make an NS at that point....If 80% of the time I didn't get PA'd it might be a bit more uptime for purge, but typically I end up using it if not from evade stun then from disease before i pop potions etc. Either way, archers are just simply half-assed atm. I'm dealing with it, but man is it ever frustrating after also playing one on Live for 15 years. Stealth detection is such a joke on this server, makes me sad.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 11:16 PM by dbeattie71
cere2 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:21 PM
semadin wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 9:44 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:41 PM
And it says something, I think, when an archer class specs only 13 in bow, I tried 35 bow once and between bubble, misses, blocks, evades, and procs interrupting (dumb), I threw bow in the trash. Not really but I only use it for interrupting and stuff like that.

Yea that part of archery is pretty frustrating. It's remarkable how much a primary ability can be negated like that.

Right now i'm being stubborn with it personally. I rolled luri ranger because that's what I played on live for nearly 15 years... I remember playing one during this time period and it was still a bit different - likely owing to the increase in game knowledge, resources, QoL improvements here, and the fact that most people playing this game are at the very least know all these things.

I am noticing that its still early days, and there are a lot of non-optimized targets (non-temped / unbuffed) which a buffed archer can rip through w/ bow. So for now I'm enjoying a taste of the old days, and accept that sometimes a skald is going to evade my crit shot...i'll bitch about it and move on.

Fortunately in the future, when everyone is running around temped and optimized to the max - assuming they do nothing with archery here - i can race-respec and all that (if still necessary).

I'm right there with ya. I made a shar, went full on melee and it's ok...but honestly the downtime once you have used purge/IP is just lame. Figured I might as well just make an NS at that point....If 80% of the time I didn't get PA'd it might be a bit more uptime for purge, but typically I end up using it if not from evade stun then from disease before i pop potions etc. Either way, archers are just simply half-assed atm. I'm dealing with it, but man is it ever frustrating after also playing one on Live for 15 years. Stealth detection is such a joke on this server, makes me sad.

I don't wait for purge/ip, I do ok if I don't get PAd but I have legion heart and insta heal pot which don't do a ton of good when diseased. How many buffed hits do you have? Does armor have all ablatives? I have a decent number of fights where I don't have to use purge/IP.

edit: Not saying all ablatives except for BP is best but that's what I'm using, because heal procs stink when diseased.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:43 PM by Xynical
Cadebrennus,

You mentioned several days ago with Pathfinding to either go 9 or 46+, stating that anywhere in between is a waste at this point.

Are you referencing melee heavy, bow heavy or just all specs across the board?

Basically, is the damage add still worth while for those trying to focus more on the sniper side than melee side?
Additionally, is there really that much of a difference in damage between 35 and 45 bow spec?
Fri 26 Apr 2019 4:46 AM by qq6
I really enjoy the pf line, have played with 36 all this time, and just recently respecced to 42 (would love to go for red dmg add, but just couldnt find the points). Its far more useful for a melee/hybrid(blades) than a full sniper for sure, but, af/dmg add, still adds dmg to the bow and survival, speed burst is a great escape aswell, its almost on par with purge tbh. Just wish they added something of worth past 35 bow, just so i could try out a full sniper spec

af buff is great even the yellow one, as it gives u 1 more charge to use
str buff = dmg/weap skill
dmg add = does add dmg, and it all adds up
speed burst = can escape most classes every 10 mins, i use that more than purge
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:14 AM by Cadebrennus
Xynical wrote:
Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:43 PM
Cadebrennus,

You mentioned several days ago with Pathfinding to either go 9 or 46+, stating that anywhere in between is a waste at this point.

Are you referencing melee heavy, bow heavy or just all specs across the board?

Basically, is the damage add still worth while for those trying to focus more on the sniper side than melee side?
Additionally, is there really that much of a difference in damage between 35 and 45 bow spec?

I think that question is definitely better answered by the guys who have been testing high bow specs recently. Melee-wise it definitely is all or nothing for PF. The problem with PF and Archery is that there is no stat buff that's better than pots/charges. For melee however you can have higher strength than a pot/charge buffed stealther if you go 50 PF. Damage Add -wise I'm not so sure anymore because of the Damage Add charge. That was our only real advantage and even that has been overshadowed by items.
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:56 AM by Auranyte
I kinda want them to roll pathfinding into our bow line similar to live. (Without the spellcasting with a bow crap) Could do the same for the other 2 archers and put the hunter charm/pet stuff in their bow line as well. All without lowering archer spec points per level. (Just like live) The only problem with this, which I suspect is why Broadsword turned archery into spells, is it might not be possible to combine "melee" and spell spec lines.


At the very least I would like the devs to up the dex/qui buff values to match live. If they do that the lvl 40 dex/qui buff would be better than charges, and the 48 would be 3 points from cap. (90) That would bring it in line with the Thane and Aug Healer self Str/Con buffs. Friar Dex/qui and Champ Str/con will also more than likely need to be brought up in values as well.
Thu 2 May 2019 3:39 AM by Xynical
So taking a look at the upcoming planned changes to buffs and what not, it appears PF is going to have even less value as combined buff potion is getting buffed. Even with the nerf to spec charges, no more red spec d/q s/c charges, pathfinding still falls short of the combined buff pot which now includes spec AF.
Damage add charge only lasts for 30 seconds, or so I was told (I haven't used it at all).

So is there any value in the damage add from PF or is the spec line essentially dead short of the speccing 9 points for the basic speed buff?
Interested in hearing the thoughts of someone playing sniper spec who has tested varying levels of PF for the damage add vs simply utilizing the points elsewhere.
Thu 2 May 2019 4:46 AM by Auranyte
Xynical wrote:
Thu 2 May 2019 3:39 AM
So taking a look at the upcoming planned changes to buffs and what not, it appears PF is going to have even less value as combined buff potion is getting buffed. Even with the nerf to spec charges, no more red spec d/q s/c charges, pathfinding still falls short of the combined buff pot which now includes spec AF.
Damage add charge only lasts for 30 seconds, or so I was told (I haven't used it at all).

So is there any value in the damage add from PF or is the spec line essentially dead short of the speccing 9 points for the basic speed buff?
Interested in hearing the thoughts of someone playing sniper spec who has tested varying levels of PF for the damage add vs simply utilizing the points elsewhere.

I'm torn atm. Either drop PF completely and ignore everything in it, or spec for the 21 DA and thats it. If I keep the 21 DA, I can get 39 Blades 39 CD 35 Stealth and 35 Bow. The problem is, I don't feel like having that high CD is worthwhile to me. I'll never use the styles outside of ice storm and maybe its followup. I could dump points into bow instead, but that is also a laughable damage increase. I could dump more points into blades to increase my style damage there..

Will require some testing on my part to figure out what fits my playstyle.
Wed 8 May 2019 1:53 AM by scira1
Thoughts after buff change 2.0?
Wed 8 May 2019 7:43 PM by cere2
Hmm if this new buff potions/uses gets implemented, what do we think of PF now?

Becomes something to consider now. Especially for melee spec.

Still, 50 points is a lot.

I might have to take my Luri off the shelf to test.
35 stealth
34 pierce
35 bow
48 pf
No CD, ouch....3 part asr chain? Yeah right...still, more of a hybrid than now.
or
35 Stealth
37 pierce (52) comp
23 cd
35 bow
40 pf
Not sure what MOA you would need to get cap here on buffs? 7? no damage variance but worth it for cd? Not sure...
or
35 Stealth
39 blades
35 bow
19 cd
40 pf
This would probably be my go to for Shar, would need to train MOA to get buffs up but should do fairly well vs assassin's?
Wed 8 May 2019 9:20 PM by dbeattie71
cere2 wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 7:43 PM
Hmm if this new buff potions/uses gets implemented, what do we think of PF now?

Becomes something to consider now. Especially for melee spec.

Still, 50 points is a lot.

I might have to take my Luri off the shelf to test.
35 stealth
34 pierce
35 bow
48 pf
No CD, ouch....3 part asr chain? Yeah right...still, more of a hybrid than now.
or
35 Stealth
37 pierce (52) comp
23 cd
35 bow
40 pf
Not sure what MOA you would need to get cap here on buffs? 7? no damage variance but worth it for cd? Not sure...
or
35 Stealth
39 blades
35 bow
19 cd
40 pf
This would probably be my go to for Shar, would need to train MOA to get buffs up but should do fairly well vs assassin's?

So what will the values for red PF buffs be after the change?
Wed 8 May 2019 9:31 PM by stinsfire
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 9:20 PM
cere2 wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 7:43 PM
Hmm if this new buff potions/uses gets implemented, what do we think of PF now?

Becomes something to consider now. Especially for melee spec.

Still, 50 points is a lot.

I might have to take my Luri off the shelf to test.
35 stealth
34 pierce
35 bow
48 pf
No CD, ouch....3 part asr chain? Yeah right...still, more of a hybrid than now.
or
35 Stealth
37 pierce (52) comp
23 cd
35 bow
40 pf
Not sure what MOA you would need to get cap here on buffs? 7? no damage variance but worth it for cd? Not sure...
or
35 Stealth
39 blades
35 bow
19 cd
40 pf
This would probably be my go to for Shar, would need to train MOA to get buffs up but should do fairly well vs assassin's?

So what will the values for red PF buffs be after the change?

d/q 75 --> 93 after factoring in skill and stats.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:41 PM by dbeattie71
stinsfire wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 9:31 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 9:20 PM
cere2 wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 7:43 PM
Hmm if this new buff potions/uses gets implemented, what do we think of PF now?

Becomes something to consider now. Especially for melee spec.

Still, 50 points is a lot.

I might have to take my Luri off the shelf to test.
35 stealth
34 pierce
35 bow
48 pf
No CD, ouch....3 part asr chain? Yeah right...still, more of a hybrid than now.
or
35 Stealth
37 pierce (52) comp
23 cd
35 bow
40 pf
Not sure what MOA you would need to get cap here on buffs? 7? no damage variance but worth it for cd? Not sure...
or
35 Stealth
39 blades
35 bow
19 cd
40 pf
This would probably be my go to for Shar, would need to train MOA to get buffs up but should do fairly well vs assassin's?

So what will the values for red PF buffs be after the change?

d/q 75 --> 93 after factoring in skill and stats.

So AF and Str stay the same?
Wed 8 May 2019 9:43 PM by stinsfire
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 9:41 PM
stinsfire wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 9:31 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Wed 8 May 2019 9:20 PM
So what will the values for red PF buffs be after the change?

d/q 75 --> 93 after factoring in skill and stats.

So AF and Str stay the same?


I think all self buffs have their stats increased but I dont know the stats for those off my head:

2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example
Sun 12 May 2019 11:15 AM by scira1
Only dq increased
Sun 12 May 2019 2:01 PM by Cadebrennus
scira1 wrote:
Sun 12 May 2019 11:15 AM
Only dq increased

With the nerf to D/Q charge, the "boost" doesn't help Rangers at all. It also nerfs Blades Rangers.
Sun 12 May 2019 7:32 PM by paul_g
Yes
My once very fun yet challenging blade Celt Ranger has been nerfed.
My last DAOC hoorah is finished.
RIP
Tue 21 May 2019 11:20 AM by Cadebrennus
Update: Response to a direct message regarding dual wielding (also includes some Assassin info)

"Hello,

You have the correct mentality of "read up, then verify for yourself" which many people in game and on these boards lack, which means you are on the right path. Regarding offhand swings, it turns out it actually does make a difference when they both swing. However, it is miniscule enough that it makes little difference unless you're swinging about 20 times uninterrupted. Here's a post with my findings AFTER I made my original Drunken Ranger Guide:

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3995&hilit=Drunken+Celtic+Dual+wielding

However I still stand by my original statement of going with the slowest offhand possible because the speed difference isn't significant enough to gimp your offhand damage.

Regarding aug str Vs aug quick or MoA, I would go with aug quick. The reason you are missing more with your offhand is that it is an unstyled attack, whereas your mainhand attacks are usually styled with a to-hit bonus. As a stealther your weaponskill is lower than a tank so that's why your unstyled offhand attack does not penetrate defenses as much as your styled mainhand attacks. The only thing that can help is raising your strength to boost your weaponskill (and as a side benefit, boost your damage as well.) In addition as an Elf/Keen you will have less weaponskill and damage with Blades (100% strength) than a Celt, Brit, Norse, Dwarf, etc. because of your lower starting strength.

For mainhand weapon speed myself and others have been finding some weird chunks of data. Still inconclusive at the moment but it is pointing to medium speed weapons being better DPS over time than slow or fast weapons. However in RvR burst damage is king so I still recommend using the slowest mainhand weapon possible especially with the high growth rates available in the Critical Strike line. That being said I would recommend that you Perf with a weapon that is fast enough to get you at the 1.5 swing cap, then swap to the slowest weapon possible for the Creeping Death follow-up. This is because the Perf growth rate isn't reliant on weapon speed like all other styles in the game (Backstab being excepted) so you won't be missing out on much damage. You will however be denying the opponent a chance to react between Perf->CD. "
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:56 PM by Aytlan
I'm a melee ranger and always have been. I didn't even learn bow mechanics until I was rr7 to counter Scouts perma-root. I know I shoulda learned how to use a bow earlier, but being interrupted frustrates the heck outa me. I'm a Shar because my playstyle relies on hps and aug con/toughness/ip. With ablative charge, legion heal, pot heal, ip, lifetap, armor proc heal/ablative recharge, I figure my base hp of around 2300hp results in an effective 4500hp. With the 30% attk spd reduction from the 2nd in blades anytime chain and 56 dex/qui reduction from Shadow Walkers Blade, it makes it really hard for opponents (my main target is other stealthers) to get thru that many hps. Yes, i'm only really awesome when my ip/purge is up, but that's true of most classes who have great active ra's. I'm still really good when those aren't up. At rr4 I would recommend a spec of 39 blades/29 cd/36 stealth/13 bow/46pf. I'm lucky enough to have rr10 which is 44 blades/29 cd/30 stealth/12 bow/46 pf. My quick, with ra's, is always 250 and currently my other stats are btw 270 and 290. All my stats, except qui, were above 300 when I was 48-50pf, but I found myself using the back snare and side stun so much that I wanted more dmg out of them, the .86% oh swing chance per point of cd and I like using follow up side style.
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:24 PM by labra
Useful feedback. Thank you
Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:56 PM by Noashakra
The fast offhand makes you swing faster with the right hand, for the same amout of damage (base damage AND style damage).

As an example, going 3.1 left hand vs 2.5, with MoArms 0 and 250 quickness and haste 14% :

1.883 vs 1.728.
It's insane, it's the difference between MoArts 0 and 5...

And with the off hand hast effect, you proc more often during a fight with your right hand (bigger proc chances because slower weapon), and it's not like the haste buff effect, it doesn't impact style damages pet hit.

Like you said the off hand miss more, so you want to maximise your dps right hand. And we are not even talking about bleed effects that can stack now.

I don't know how you can still advise a slow off hand...
Thu 2 Jul 2020 10:28 PM by Cadebrennus
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:56 PM
The fast offhand makes you swing faster with the right hand, for the same amout of damage (base damage AND style damage).

As an example, going 3.1 left hand vs 2.5, with MoArms 0 and 250 quickness and haste 14% :

1.883 vs 1.728.
It's insane, it's the difference between MoArts 0 and 5...

And with the off hand hast effect, you proc more often during a fight with your right hand (bigger proc chances because slower weapon), and it's not like the haste buff effect, it doesn't impact style damages pet hit.

Like you said the off hand miss more, so you want to maximise your dps right hand. And we are not even talking about bleed effects that can stack now.

I don't know how you can still advise a slow off hand...

I advise a slow offhand mainly because a fight doesn't last the 25 seconds a fight needs to see the haste effect add up and overtake the damage from a slow offhand. That being said I generally tend to go middle of the road (around a 3.1) instead of a 3.3 or a 2.4.

Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 28 Oct 2019 7:52 PM
"The right circumstances" for a fast offhand equals about 25 seconds of uninterrupted swinging to get that extra swing that a fast offhand will get you, on average.

"The right circumstances" for a slow offhand is everything else other than the above scenario....
Fri 3 Jul 2020 5:28 AM by Noashakra
You have no style bonus, so a 2.5 16.5 dps and a 2.7/2.9/3.1 16.5 dps are the same in term of damage over time unti you reach the cap speed with a 2.5 (250 quickness and MoArms 9 with 14% haste from pots or MoArms 7 with 20% haste, so yeah almost impossible), so why would you not benefit from the haste effect? Also you assume 25sec for a fight, which is wrong, you never fight tanks or archers with IP or use IP yourself?
Fri 3 Jul 2020 5:48 AM by Cadebrennus
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 3 Jul 2020 5:28 AM
You have no style bonus, so a 2.5 16.5 dps and a 2.7/2.9/3.1 16.5 dps are the same in term of damage over time unti you reach the cap speed with a 2.5 (250 quickness and MoArms 9 with 14% haste from pots or MoArms 7 with 20% haste, so yeah almost impossible), so why would you not benefit from the haste effect? Also you assume 25sec for a fight, which is wrong, you never fight tanks or archers with IP or use IP yourself?

It just never seems to last too long. I have asked around, and including my own experience it seems the average is around 30 seconds if you're lucky before the fight ends or you are added. The unstyled damage difference is much more significant than you state here, especially when you consider the damage add as well, and in particular when using the highest damage add possible. I like to /use the 11.3 DA instead of speccing 46 PF, so it's an even better hit per swing.

At this point it comes down to personal preference because of the length of the fight. If the average uninterrupted fight is about 30 seconds then it's purely personal preference. I like to run in Visi groups regardless of class or realm so I don't get as much time to just swing away on a target uninterrupted, so I prefer a few big swings per target.
Fri 3 Jul 2020 7:16 AM by Noashakra
The add damage is 11.3dps, the left hands weapon are also 16.5dps base dps, it states for damage per second, so if you hit at 1.5s speed or 2.0s, it will do the same damageover 25/30secs for both the left and and add dmg.... You only nerf your right hand dps (because of the special dual mechanic) by going slow left hand which is problematic.
In any case, burst is interesting for groups, in order to take healers by surprise and give them no chance to heal. In solo, you want the best DPS possible because you have nobody to assist you and the target often has no healer with him.
Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:33 AM by inoeth
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 3 Jul 2020 7:16 AM
The add damage is 11.3dps, the left hands weapon are also 16.5dps base dps, it states for damage per second, so if you hit at 1.5s speed or 2.0s, it will do the same damageover 25/30secs for both the left and and add dmg.... You only nerf your right hand dps (because of the special dual mechanic) by going slow left hand which is problematic.
In any case, burst is interesting for groups, in order to take healers by surprise and give them no chance to heal. In solo, you want the best DPS possible because you have nobody to assist you and the target often has no healer with him.

bu...but cade tested it, must be right then!! D

tbh this thread should be removed, so much false information here... poor new players who believe this shit
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:10 AM by Noashakra
I mean people figured this stuff out more than 14 years ago.
If you want to prove them wrong, I need more than "from my experience"
Make a spreadsheet with 1000 hits with 4.2&2.5 and 4.2&3.1 and come back to us with the numbers.
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:42 AM by Noashakra
Aytlan wrote:
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:56 PM
I'm a melee ranger and always have been. I didn't even learn bow mechanics until I was rr7 to counter Scouts perma-root. I know I shoulda learned how to use a bow earlier, but being interrupted frustrates the heck outa me. I'm a Shar because my playstyle relies on hps and aug con/toughness/ip. With ablative charge, legion heal, pot heal, ip, lifetap, armor proc heal/ablative recharge, I figure my base hp of around 2300hp results in an effective 4500hp. With the 30% attk spd reduction from the 2nd in blades anytime chain and 56 dex/qui reduction from Shadow Walkers Blade, it makes it really hard for opponents (my main target is other stealthers) to get thru that many hps. Yes, i'm only really awesome when my ip/purge is up, but that's true of most classes who have great active ra's. I'm still really good when those aren't up. At rr4 I would recommend a spec of 39 blades/29 cd/36 stealth/13 bow/46pf. I'm lucky enough to have rr10 which is 44 blades/29 cd/30 stealth/12 bow/46 pf. My quick, with ra's, is always 250 and currently my other stats are btw 270 and 290. All my stats, except qui, were above 300 when I was 48-50pf, but I found myself using the back snare and side stun so much that I wanted more dmg out of them, the .86% oh swing chance per point of cd and I like using follow up side style.

Red add dmg + low CD is worst than high CD + yellow add dmg in DPS.
After the 6/7L melee ranger should go 39 weapon 39 dual (if you want the asr) or 52 composite and 44 dual (you can have the red add dmg with this spec at rr10).
Fri 3 Jul 2020 11:09 AM by Cadebrennus
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:42 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:56 PM
I'm a melee ranger and always have been. I didn't even learn bow mechanics until I was rr7 to counter Scouts perma-root. I know I shoulda learned how to use a bow earlier, but being interrupted frustrates the heck outa me. I'm a Shar because my playstyle relies on hps and aug con/toughness/ip. With ablative charge, legion heal, pot heal, ip, lifetap, armor proc heal/ablative recharge, I figure my base hp of around 2300hp results in an effective 4500hp. With the 30% attk spd reduction from the 2nd in blades anytime chain and 56 dex/qui reduction from Shadow Walkers Blade, it makes it really hard for opponents (my main target is other stealthers) to get thru that many hps. Yes, i'm only really awesome when my ip/purge is up, but that's true of most classes who have great active ra's. I'm still really good when those aren't up. At rr4 I would recommend a spec of 39 blades/29 cd/36 stealth/13 bow/46pf. I'm lucky enough to have rr10 which is 44 blades/29 cd/30 stealth/12 bow/46 pf. My quick, with ra's, is always 250 and currently my other stats are btw 270 and 290. All my stats, except qui, were above 300 when I was 48-50pf, but I found myself using the back snare and side stun so much that I wanted more dmg out of them, the .86% oh swing chance per point of cd and I like using follow up side style.

Red add dmg + low CD is worst than high CD + yellow add dmg in DPS.
After the 6/7L melee ranger should go 39 weapon 39 dual (if you want the asr) or 52 composite and 44 dual (you can have the red add dmg with this spec at rr10).

This is why my Ranger is 50 CD and using a DA charge. Obviously I'm going for burst damage. If I was a /bow towner then I'd go with a faster offhand.

You and I are talking about completely different scenarios. I can't remember when I've had a 30+seconds uninterrupted fight when I have soloed. Besides, I enjoy group Visi RvR with my Ranger more than running all over the frontier solo.
Wed 8 Jul 2020 6:31 PM by punahou
so to be clear
1. is the melee ranger viable? im reading mixed reviews-- and OP also stated he is rolling a NS not a ranger
2. the buff potions
a. so they stack with ranger buffs?
b. if not--- are the ranger buffs better than the potion buffs?

I joined friday 7/3
I have a ranger to level 26 atm with the intent to make a melee spec. But if its going to be an uphill battle to make him competative-- id rather go assassin then.
Wed 8 Jul 2020 7:53 PM by Cadebrennus
punahou wrote:
Wed 8 Jul 2020 6:31 PM
so to be clear
1. is the melee ranger viable? im reading mixed reviews-- and OP also stated he is rolling a NS not a ranger
2. the buff potions
a. so they stack with ranger buffs?
b. if not--- are the ranger buffs better than the potion buffs?

I joined friday 7/3
I have a ranger to level 26 atm with the intent to make a melee spec. But if its going to be an uphill battle to make him competative-- id rather go assassin then.

1. is the melee ranger viable? im reading mixed reviews-- and OP also stated he is rolling a NS not a ranger
Melee Ranger is okay, not great, just okay, but only after higher RR and all of the timered toys.


2. the buff potions
a. so they stack with ranger buffs?
No.

b. if not--- are the ranger buffs better than the potion buffs?
If you spec high in Pathfinding yes, but it eats up A LOT of spec points for very little return.


I gave up on the NS because I simply don't like playing an Elf or a Keen. Celt for life! Character models and preferences aside, the Blades NS is at a strength disadvantage, particularly against a SB. Add to that the nerfed Slash/Blades bonus vs Mid leather and the NS is facing an uphill battle when it comes to swinging blows vs Mid. I was gone for a while but there are too many Archers for the Devs tastes which will probably lead to yet more nerfs (summarised from their words and posts), so I'm playing a Merc who does very decent unspecced Shortbow damage. Comparing 4.0 speed bows, the Merc does 20 less damage per shot when compared to a 1 Archery Ranger, and I think 25 less when compared to a 12 Archery Ranger. This is with approximately the same dexterity. You can expect equivalent numbers with a BM. The only major differences between the two would be trading stealth for climb walls, and speccable bow with 600 more units of range (meh) vs much much better melee damage and speccable shield. The only place where I see a significant difference is in Quickness, where the Archer has a significant advantage in that stat over a light tank. Regarding PF it just isn't worth the spec points unless a Ranger goes full Sniper Spec (48 PF), but then they are just extremely weak in melee, even by Archer standards.
Thu 9 Jul 2020 5:16 AM by Noashakra
Melee spec is ok, but you will cry a lot when you die because no purge and IP :p Mine is almost 10L.
I would say it starts to be fin after 6L, but I rolled a NS and it was already stronger at the 4L in melee.
Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:53 AM by inoeth
playing NS is uphill battle especially vs SB? wow its getting more ridiculous every day.

please anyone who stumbled across this thread: do not believe a single word the author says

his ranger is 3l8 and he does not play him, still gives "advice"
Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:05 AM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote:
Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:53 AM
playing NS is uphill battle especially vs SB? wow its getting more ridiculous every day.

please anyone who stumbled across this thread: do not believe a single word the author says

his ranger is 3l8 and he does not play him, still gives "advice"

I've played a Ranger since classic and played with most specs, and tested most types of play styles. How different is the Phoenix Ranger than the SI Ranger? Either produce evidence that my data is wrong or shut up. At this point your behaviour is just plain harassment.
Thu 9 Jul 2020 10:49 AM by inoeth
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:05 AM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:53 AM
playing NS is uphill battle especially vs SB? wow its getting more ridiculous every day.

please anyone who stumbled across this thread: do not believe a single word the author says

his ranger is 3l8 and he does not play him, still gives "advice"

I've played a Ranger since classic and played with most specs, and tested most types of play styles. How different is the Phoenix Ranger than the SI Ranger? Either produce evidence that my data is wrong or shut up. At this point your behaviour is just plain harassment.

you always claim *** edited by Uthred and when someone informs you about that, then you want evidence? how about you give some evidence for your insane claims? oh and simply pretending that you "have tested ist" does not count.
you have been disproven many times, hell even the GMs diss you...

for example the uphill battle thing with NS.... thats so not true, NS absolutely rips! maybe gigud and watch tani videos?
*** Edited by Uthred
Thu 9 Jul 2020 12:58 PM by tommccartney
Having not played a dual wield class on this server -How accurate in the information regarding offhand weapon speed & haste effect in this guide?

Ty
Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:08 PM by Cadebrennus
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 9 Jul 2020 12:58 PM
Having not played a dual wield class on this server -How accurate in the information regarding offhand weapon speed & haste effect in this guide?

Ty

There's more accurate information in "The Drunken Ranger's Guide to Drunken Dual Wielding" in the forum. I don't know if the forum search function is working or not. That being said there has been an updated formula that is Phoenix specific but I don't know the numbers off of the top of my head.
Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:26 PM by Uthred
Please stop the insults and keep it civil. Thank you.
Tue 21 Jul 2020 8:40 PM by Aytlan
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:42 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:56 PM
I'm a melee ranger and always have been. I didn't even learn bow mechanics until I was rr7 to counter Scouts perma-root. I know I shoulda learned how to use a bow earlier, but being interrupted frustrates the heck outa me. I'm a Shar because my playstyle relies on hps and aug con/toughness/ip. With ablative charge, legion heal, pot heal, ip, lifetap, armor proc heal/ablative recharge, I figure my base hp of around 2300hp results in an effective 4500hp. With the 30% attk spd reduction from the 2nd in blades anytime chain and 56 dex/qui reduction from Shadow Walkers Blade, it makes it really hard for opponents (my main target is other stealthers) to get thru that many hps. Yes, i'm only really awesome when my ip/purge is up, but that's true of most classes who have great active ra's. I'm still really good when those aren't up. At rr4 I would recommend a spec of 39 blades/29 cd/36 stealth/13 bow/46pf. I'm lucky enough to have rr10 which is 44 blades/29 cd/30 stealth/12 bow/46 pf. My quick, with ra's, is always 250 and currently my other stats are btw 270 and 290. All my stats, except qui, were above 300 when I was 48-50pf, but I found myself using the back snare and side stun so much that I wanted more dmg out of them, the .86% oh swing chance per point of cd and I like using follow up side style.

Red add dmg + low CD is worst than high CD + yellow add dmg in DPS.
After the 6/7L melee ranger should go 39 weapon 39 dual (if you want the asr) or 52 composite and 44 dual (you can have the red add dmg with this spec at rr10).
It's hard to believe that higher CD and lower blades is better, when you say 2 posts down that it's worse than a rr4 NS. Maybe a rr4 NS is better cuz you only fight xpers and people running a straight line to the docks, which means you can PA them easily? I'm just trying to say that your experience may be different from others with diff play styles. You are also not only giving up a red dmg add when you lower your PF, this is especially true now that MoArcane works on the self buffs, but not pots, a change that was made after you stopped playing your Ranger. There isn't a big diff btwn 4% better chance for oh to swing and 10% loss of blades style dmg, its probably about equal, even considering the oh effect on mh proc rate. It certainly wouldn't be noticeable.
Wed 22 Jul 2020 10:05 AM by Noashakra
Aytlan wrote:
Tue 21 Jul 2020 8:40 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:42 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:56 PM
I'm a melee ranger and always have been. I didn't even learn bow mechanics until I was rr7 to counter Scouts perma-root. I know I shoulda learned how to use a bow earlier, but being interrupted frustrates the heck outa me. I'm a Shar because my playstyle relies on hps and aug con/toughness/ip. With ablative charge, legion heal, pot heal, ip, lifetap, armor proc heal/ablative recharge, I figure my base hp of around 2300hp results in an effective 4500hp. With the 30% attk spd reduction from the 2nd in blades anytime chain and 56 dex/qui reduction from Shadow Walkers Blade, it makes it really hard for opponents (my main target is other stealthers) to get thru that many hps. Yes, i'm only really awesome when my ip/purge is up, but that's true of most classes who have great active ra's. I'm still really good when those aren't up. At rr4 I would recommend a spec of 39 blades/29 cd/36 stealth/13 bow/46pf. I'm lucky enough to have rr10 which is 44 blades/29 cd/30 stealth/12 bow/46 pf. My quick, with ra's, is always 250 and currently my other stats are btw 270 and 290. All my stats, except qui, were above 300 when I was 48-50pf, but I found myself using the back snare and side stun so much that I wanted more dmg out of them, the .86% oh swing chance per point of cd and I like using follow up side style.

Red add dmg + low CD is worst than high CD + yellow add dmg in DPS.
After the 6/7L melee ranger should go 39 weapon 39 dual (if you want the asr) or 52 composite and 44 dual (you can have the red add dmg with this spec at rr10).
It's hard to believe that higher CD and lower blades is better, when you say 2 posts down that it's worse than a rr4 NS. Maybe a rr4 NS is better cuz you only fight xpers and people running a straight line to the docks, which means you can PA them easily? I'm just trying to say that your experience may be different from others with diff play styles. You are also not only giving up a red dmg add when you lower your PF, this is especially true now that MoArcane works on the self buffs, but not pots, a change that was made after you stopped playing your Ranger. There isn't a big diff btwn 4% better chance for oh to swing and 10% loss of blades style dmg, its probably about equal, even considering the oh effect on mh proc rate. It certainly wouldn't be noticeable.

MoArcane is a waste of points now that it doesn't work on your pot buffs and only on your selfs.
Nowadays I would drop PF to 0 and play with add damage charge + add damage proc on the armor (like my NS). So you would STILL benefit of high dual. If I play my ranger again, I would go 44dual 45bow 52comp blade and 50comp stealth at the 10L.
I don't know how you came up with those 10% style damage for 5 points in spec... The swing change change is 12.9% with 44 dual vs 29, so you clearly have no idea about how all of this works.
The side stun+chain with bleed now is a must have. If you open with that, you can make a nice bleed because you can use the chain twice during a stun.

If you think I only PA xpers, it's proof you don't play solo on this server. Ask beavercleaver about our yesterday fight :p Ask Euloggie, or even therabbin if you prefer.
It's funny because you yourself have a ridiculous amount of solo kills for your rank and you are almost never alone. So yeah your "playstyle" is add and/or play in duo. I am almost already at your solo kill count on my NS and I am not even 8L...
Your killRP/kill is at 377 on your ranger vs 490 on my ranger and 744 on my NS (let's not speak about the killRP/killsolo). So you shouldn't speak about my playstyle.
Thu 23 Jul 2020 5:36 PM by Aytlan
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020 10:05 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Tue 21 Jul 2020 8:40 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:42 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:56 PM
I'm a melee ranger and always have been. I didn't even learn bow mechanics until I was rr7 to counter Scouts perma-root. I know I shoulda learned how to use a bow earlier, but being interrupted frustrates the heck outa me. I'm a Shar because my playstyle relies on hps and aug con/toughness/ip. With ablative charge, legion heal, pot heal, ip, lifetap, armor proc heal/ablative recharge, I figure my base hp of around 2300hp results in an effective 4500hp. With the 30% attk spd reduction from the 2nd in blades anytime chain and 56 dex/qui reduction from Shadow Walkers Blade, it makes it really hard for opponents (my main target is other stealthers) to get thru that many hps. Yes, i'm only really awesome when my ip/purge is up, but that's true of most classes who have great active ra's. I'm still really good when those aren't up. At rr4 I would recommend a spec of 39 blades/29 cd/36 stealth/13 bow/46pf. I'm lucky enough to have rr10 which is 44 blades/29 cd/30 stealth/12 bow/46 pf. My quick, with ra's, is always 250 and currently my other stats are btw 270 and 290. All my stats, except qui, were above 300 when I was 48-50pf, but I found myself using the back snare and side stun so much that I wanted more dmg out of them, the .86% oh swing chance per point of cd and I like using follow up side style.

Red add dmg + low CD is worst than high CD + yellow add dmg in DPS.
After the 6/7L melee ranger should go 39 weapon 39 dual (if you want the asr) or 52 composite and 44 dual (you can have the red add dmg with this spec at rr10).
It's hard to believe that higher CD and lower blades is better, when you say 2 posts down that it's worse than a rr4 NS. Maybe a rr4 NS is better cuz you only fight xpers and people running a straight line to the docks, which means you can PA them easily? I'm just trying to say that your experience may be different from others with diff play styles. You are also not only giving up a red dmg add when you lower your PF, this is especially true now that MoArcane works on the self buffs, but not pots, a change that was made after you stopped playing your Ranger. There isn't a big diff btwn 4% better chance for oh to swing and 10% loss of blades style dmg, its probably about equal, even considering the oh effect on mh proc rate. It certainly wouldn't be noticeable.

MoArcane is a waste of points now that it doesn't work on your pot buffs and only on your selfs.
Nowadays I would drop PF to 0 and play with add damage charge + add damage proc on the armor (like my NS). So you would STILL benefit of high dual. If I play my ranger again, I would go 44dual 45bow 52comp blade and 50comp stealth at the 10L.
I don't know how you came up with those 10% style damage for 5 points in spec... The swing change change is 12.9% with 44 dual vs 29, so you clearly have no idea about how all of this works.
The side stun+chain with bleed now is a must have. If you open with that, you can make a nice bleed because you can use the chain twice during a stun.

If you think I only PA xpers, it's proof you don't play solo on this server. Ask beavercleaver about our yesterday fight :p Ask Euloggie, or even therabbin if you prefer.
It's funny because you yourself have a ridiculous amount of solo kills for your rank and you are almost never alone. So yeah your "playstyle" is add and/or play in duo. I am almost already at your solo kill count on my NS and I am not even 8L...
Your killRP/kill is at 377 on your ranger vs 490 on my ranger and 744 on my NS (let's not speak about the killRP/killsolo). So you shouldn't speak about my playstyle.

It's obvious from your killrp/killsolo ratio that you are playing your NS different than you did you Ranger, my mistake. I haven't been out in the stealth wars lately, I made a bad assumption.

I agree that the lvl 29 bleed follow up to the side stun is a very nice to have, use it all the time.

As I stated in my original post, I dont use bow much, being at 12. My experience playing a melee Ranger is probably closer to what you are doing on your NS. Was trying to give my advice being a melee ranger and just disagreed with your advice on CD, sorry it got personal.
Thu 23 Jul 2020 6:07 PM by Noashakra
It's fine I rant easily too sometimes. No hard feelings, those are just words.
Thu 23 Jul 2020 8:56 PM by Cadebrennus
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020 10:05 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Tue 21 Jul 2020 8:40 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:42 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:56 PM
I'm a melee ranger and always have been. I didn't even learn bow mechanics until I was rr7 to counter Scouts perma-root. I know I shoulda learned how to use a bow earlier, but being interrupted frustrates the heck outa me. I'm a Shar because my playstyle relies on hps and aug con/toughness/ip. With ablative charge, legion heal, pot heal, ip, lifetap, armor proc heal/ablative recharge, I figure my base hp of around 2300hp results in an effective 4500hp. With the 30% attk spd reduction from the 2nd in blades anytime chain and 56 dex/qui reduction from Shadow Walkers Blade, it makes it really hard for opponents (my main target is other stealthers) to get thru that many hps. Yes, i'm only really awesome when my ip/purge is up, but that's true of most classes who have great active ra's. I'm still really good when those aren't up. At rr4 I would recommend a spec of 39 blades/29 cd/36 stealth/13 bow/46pf. I'm lucky enough to have rr10 which is 44 blades/29 cd/30 stealth/12 bow/46 pf. My quick, with ra's, is always 250 and currently my other stats are btw 270 and 290. All my stats, except qui, were above 300 when I was 48-50pf, but I found myself using the back snare and side stun so much that I wanted more dmg out of them, the .86% oh swing chance per point of cd and I like using follow up side style.

Red add dmg + low CD is worst than high CD + yellow add dmg in DPS.
After the 6/7L melee ranger should go 39 weapon 39 dual (if you want the asr) or 52 composite and 44 dual (you can have the red add dmg with this spec at rr10).
It's hard to believe that higher CD and lower blades is better, when you say 2 posts down that it's worse than a rr4 NS. Maybe a rr4 NS is better cuz you only fight xpers and people running a straight line to the docks, which means you can PA them easily? I'm just trying to say that your experience may be different from others with diff play styles. You are also not only giving up a red dmg add when you lower your PF, this is especially true now that MoArcane works on the self buffs, but not pots, a change that was made after you stopped playing your Ranger. There isn't a big diff btwn 4% better chance for oh to swing and 10% loss of blades style dmg, its probably about equal, even considering the oh effect on mh proc rate. It certainly wouldn't be noticeable.

MoArcane is a waste of points now that it doesn't work on your pot buffs and only on your selfs.
Nowadays I would drop PF to 0 and play with add damage charge + add damage proc on the armor (like my NS). So you would STILL benefit of high dual. If I play my ranger again, I would go 44dual 45bow 52comp blade and 50comp stealth at the 10L.

This is exactly why I specced 21 PF and no higher. Really all I needed is the 16 PF speed boost, but I had enough points left over in my spec to have the 21 DA as a backup for when my DA /use or reactive proc is down, same as you. However, I did this before the MOA nerf, because I recognized the weakness of the PF buffs compared to their skill point cost. The only good thing in PF is the speed burst, which is good enough to stop at 15 PF, or to go to 48 PF for solo sniper spec only (not grouped with a Druid).
Fri 31 Jul 2020 1:03 AM by stewbeedoo
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 23 Jul 2020 8:56 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020 10:05 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Tue 21 Jul 2020 8:40 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:42 AM
Aytlan wrote:
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:56 PM
I'm a melee ranger and always have been. I didn't even learn bow mechanics until I was rr7 to counter Scouts perma-root. I know I shoulda learned how to use a bow earlier, but being interrupted frustrates the heck outa me. I'm a Shar because my playstyle relies on hps and aug con/toughness/ip. With ablative charge, legion heal, pot heal, ip, lifetap, armor proc heal/ablative recharge, I figure my base hp of around 2300hp results in an effective 4500hp. With the 30% attk spd reduction from the 2nd in blades anytime chain and 56 dex/qui reduction from Shadow Walkers Blade, it makes it really hard for opponents (my main target is other stealthers) to get thru that many hps. Yes, i'm only really awesome when my ip/purge is up, but that's true of most classes who have great active ra's. I'm still really good when those aren't up. At rr4 I would recommend a spec of 39 blades/29 cd/36 stealth/13 bow/46pf. I'm lucky enough to have rr10 which is 44 blades/29 cd/30 stealth/12 bow/46 pf. My quick, with ra's, is always 250 and currently my other stats are btw 270 and 290. All my stats, except qui, were above 300 when I was 48-50pf, but I found myself using the back snare and side stun so much that I wanted more dmg out of them, the .86% oh swing chance per point of cd and I like using follow up side style.

Red add dmg + low CD is worst than high CD + yellow add dmg in DPS.
After the 6/7L melee ranger should go 39 weapon 39 dual (if you want the asr) or 52 composite and 44 dual (you can have the red add dmg with this spec at rr10).
It's hard to believe that higher CD and lower blades is better, when you say 2 posts down that it's worse than a rr4 NS. Maybe a rr4 NS is better cuz you only fight xpers and people running a straight line to the docks, which means you can PA them easily? I'm just trying to say that your experience may be different from others with diff play styles. You are also not only giving up a red dmg add when you lower your PF, this is especially true now that MoArcane works on the self buffs, but not pots, a change that was made after you stopped playing your Ranger. There isn't a big diff btwn 4% better chance for oh to swing and 10% loss of blades style dmg, its probably about equal, even considering the oh effect on mh proc rate. It certainly wouldn't be noticeable.

MoArcane is a waste of points now that it doesn't work on your pot buffs and only on your selfs.
Nowadays I would drop PF to 0 and play with add damage charge + add damage proc on the armor (like my NS). So you would STILL benefit of high dual. If I play my ranger again, I would go 44dual 45bow 52comp blade and 50comp stealth at the 10L.

This is exactly why I specced 21 PF and no higher. Really all I needed is the 16 PF speed boost, but I had enough points left over in my spec to have the 21 DA as a backup for when my DA /use or reactive proc is down, same as you. However, I did this before the MOA nerf, because I recognized the weakness of the PF buffs compared to their skill point cost. The only good thing in PF is the speed burst, which is good enough to stop at 15 PF, or to go to 48 PF for solo sniper spec only (not grouped with a Druid).
When MoArc affected pots buffs it was a pretty easy decision to go higher PF and and MoArc. Your stats were way higher than you could ever achieve with Aug. Now it is much more debatable. I still spec 42 PF but have invested less in MoArc. This is what is fun about the game - lots of variety in specs and playstyles.
Tue 4 Aug 2020 3:58 AM by CowwoC
What would be a decent spec for a luri sniper below rr5 and what spec from rr5 on?
PF yes or no? Blades or Pierce? At the creation i spent 10 points into str and 15 into dex.
Tue 4 Aug 2020 6:31 AM by Cadebrennus
CowwoC wrote:
Tue 4 Aug 2020 3:58 AM
What would be a decent spec for a luri sniper below rr5 and what spec from rr5 on?
PF yes or no? Blades or Pierce? At the creation i spent 10 points into str and 15 into dex.

The baseline Luri Sniper spec I would go for is this:

35 Stealth
21 Pierce (side snare)
18 CD (side stun)
40 Archery (penetrating arrow 2)
48 PF (for last Dex/Qui debuff)

There are 33 points left over in this spec. Depending on your RR, they can go in various places such as more Archery when you're higher RR, or to fill in the gap in your stealth when lower RR.

Below RR5, drop Archery a bit to get yourself to composite 50 Stealth if you're uncomfortable with having less than 50 composite Stealth. It's not completely necessary for Archers IMO, but it seems to be the mindset in game that it is.

At RR6+ you can start to lower Stealth and put more points in Archery. Put your leftover points into CD and Pierce to help land the styles.

Use the fastest weapons to get you to the 1.5 speed cap, and take into consideration that you will be Dex/Qui debuffed by procs or poison as well as possibly debuffed by weapon styles. Your only concern in melee is to land the stun/snare styles then kite.

I suggest the Pierce side snare due to a slightly higher WS with a Luri with Pierce over Blades, but the Blades side snare can work as well. You will stun with the side style in CD then IMMEDIATELY follow it up with the snare, then try to get some distance. It's your only chance of survival if caught in melee.

Other Sniper Ranger players with more experience with high Archery specs can give you more details on what to expect with various Archery spec point allocations.

Even though you do have the highest DA in PF with this spec, I still recommend using a DA charge item right when you release your first Critshot in order to maximize your damage. Being that you will probably be using a 5.5 bow you will get some excellent added damage per shot in comparison with the PF DA.
Tue 4 Aug 2020 4:05 PM by CowwoC
Why not higher than 40 into archery from the beginning, is Rapid Fire 2 not worth it nor the dmg if you go even higher?
Is my WS affecting my bow damage if i choose pierce? I mean, if i don't really rely on my pierce weapons - why not take the blades snare(which is cheaper) and put the other points into archery or skip on weapon arts entirely? I don't even know if the side stun(only 4seconds) is worth anything. Imagine you don't land your side snare after the stun - oof. As sniper you are probably dead if you can't kill your target in the first place nor be able to run away - i guess.

So if i would not bother to spec into weapons i would end up with something like:

48 pathfinding
45 archery
37 stealth
10 blades
13 celtic dual

or if makes no sense to spec higher than 40 into archery then:

48 pathfinding
40 archery
37 stealth
19 blades
18 celtic dual

With gaining rr you can drop stealth down to 35 and pump these points into weapon art and/ or celtic dual like you said - or bow(dunno why you would if you don't go for it right from the start).
Tue 4 Aug 2020 4:13 PM by Cadebrennus
CowwoC wrote:
Tue 4 Aug 2020 4:05 PM
Why not higher than 40 into archery from the beginning, is Rapid Fire 2 not worth it nor the dmg if you go even higher?
Is my WS affecting my bow damage if i choose pierce? I mean, if i don't really rely on my pierce weapons - why not take the blades snare(which is cheaper) and put the other points into archery or skip on weapon arts entirely? I don't even know if the side stun(only 4seconds) is worth anything. Imagine you don't land your side snare after the stun - oof. As sniper you are probably dead if you can't kill your target in the first place nor be able to run away - i guess.

So if i would not bother to spec into weapons i would end up with something like:

48 pathfinding
45 archery
37 stealth
10 blades
13 celtic dual

or if makes no sense to spec higher than 40 into archery then:

48 pathfinding
40 archery
37 stealth
19 blades
18 celtic dual

With gaining rr you can drop stealth down to 35 and pump these points into weapon art and/ or celtic dual like you said - or bow(dunno why you would if you don't go for it right from the start).

From others' testing you don't get much extra damage above 52 comp Archery. Based on that 40 is a good stopping point for the Penetrating Arrow. RF2 isn't worth it with the endo pots in game, and even an endo heal pot if you really need it, which in nearly every situation you won't.

You can go Blades for the cheaper spec point investment but you lower WS which can reduce your chance to hit from what I remember. I may be wrong about that though, since I don't remember that info off of the top of my head.

Never go below 18 CD.

Aside from the 18 CD thing others with more experience playing the Sniper Ranger role may disagree with me and that's cool. It's important to consider what they say too.
Tue 4 Aug 2020 5:14 PM by CowwoC
I did a testing on my lvl 49 archer(no temp):

Crit shot max damage on dummys was 502 with 49 into archery and 251 dmg on a normal shot.
Crit shot max damage on dummys was 435 with 40 into archery and 217 dmg on a normal shot.

both with 48 into PF.

Thats huge for the crit shot at least?!
Tue 4 Aug 2020 5:16 PM by Kwall0311
Not going above comp 52 archery hasnt been true since May, dont listen to what was just posted.
Tue 4 Aug 2020 5:29 PM by Cadebrennus
Kwall0311 wrote:
Tue 4 Aug 2020 5:16 PM
Not going above comp 52 archery hasnt been true since May, dont listen to what was just posted.

You should read what I said again. I said not as significant above 52, not "OMG DURN'T GO ABOVE 52!!!111oneone111", and also to get more info from people who spec and play Sniper more often.

If you have something to say, then say it. Don't just post a troll comment and move on, because that just makes you a troll. Contribute, or stay the fuck out of here.
Tue 4 Aug 2020 5:55 PM by CowwoC
2L6 to be precise. I indeed find this gap significant as well and i am not even lvl 50 yet nor temped.

edit: huh, where is the post before me i was replying to? weird.
Tue 4 Aug 2020 5:59 PM by Kwall0311
I deleted it , because i decided its probably a good thing if rangers only stay at comp 52
Fri 19 Feb 2021 2:22 PM by Grinnygog
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 12 Nov 2018 11:37 AM
Arrows
Arrow Types
Using your (usually) primary weapon, you as an Archer get to do something no other physical damage class can do without a significant investment of skill points: you can change your damage type at will. This is important because if you are knowledgeable enough you can always have a bonus to the armor type of the target, except cloth, which is neutral to all damage types. These are the top tier arrows you will be using:

Regarding cloth armour: How is it affected by racial resist weaknesses? E.g. your standard humanoid i.e. Briton, Norseman and Celt are weak to thrust damage, so would using piercing arrows do more damage to them through the cloth armour? Similarly, Saracens, Dwarves and Elves are weak to crush damage, so would arrows that do crush damage work better? Similarly also with other races having different weaknesses to either crush, slash or thrust.
Mon 21 Jun 2021 12:29 PM by Ash
what's new with the new styles on hybrid, melee rangerz?
still viable?
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