2021 Balance Changes #2

Started 7 Jan 2021
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
This round of changes will include 3 experimental changes, in one case the experimental status is because of disagreement in the other two it's because the changes might have unintended and/or far reaching consequences or because the values/cost are unclear.
A change being experimental means that we will closely monitor their effects and might even decide to scrap the concept entirely after about a week of testing or that changes to their values/cost are very likely.

The primary purpose of these changes as well as the next couple rounds of changes is to open up classes or even entire setups to become competitive in group fights. The next set of changes will do something for the hib heat train and we will have some more discussions about mid setups in general.
With this set of changes we believe the hib energy train to be very much competitive and that there is now an actual choice in some setups to pick up a paladin and even the necro or thane look like they might be an interesting choice.

Paladin
Experimental: A new instant group heal that does not heal the paladin and on the highest level has a value of 3% per group member (making it a 24% instant in a full group) at a cost of 60% base mana on a 60 second cooldown. This means the actual cooldown is the mana cost.
Experimental: A new instant group damage add with a duration of 15 seconds of 2.5 dps per group member that will overwrite the damage add chant, 60% base mana cost and 60 second cooldown. This means the actual cooldown is the mana cost. As this overwrites the chant damage add this effectively adds a 12.5 dps damage add when in a full group.

In both cases the mana cost is very much subject to change, it might even become 60% max mana or more. The intent is to make the pala choose which spell to use as well as create a new synergy between paladin and necromancer.

Mentalist
The mentalist will receive nearsight in their mana spec line, starting at 10 mana spec.
Experimental: The mentalist will receive the spiritual (as found on the eld/sm/cab) resist debuffs in their mentalism line.

Berserker
Will receive OF charge like mercs and blademaster

Resist Debuffs
Experimental: All classes with 3 resist debuffs in a line will instead only have a single resist debuff that will debuff those 3 resists. That means the cabalist, wizard, sorcerer, eldritch, enchanter, spiritmaster, runemaster and new in this change the mentalist will have their 3 individual resist debuffs replaced with a single debuff that covers all 3 resists. The duration of this triple resist debuff will be 8 seconds and for duration purposes the resist type will be an elemental resist type for spiritual resist and vice versa, e. g. the triple body/spirit/energy debuff itself would have cold as damage type.
This changes nothing about the thane energy resist debuff or the bonedancer body debuff, those remain as they were.

This change had disagreement, largely on account of how it changes certain playstyles not necessarily because of the balance implications. The primary / intended beneficiaries for this change are the light eld on the hib heat train and the arb animist on the hib energy train and the thane in mid caster groups. The welcome "unintended" beneficiaries are necros and air theurgists, the unwelcome beneficiaries are the theurgist ice pets.
The implications for debuff cc are not only acknowledged but very much welcome. One argument against this change was that it would "dumb things down", the primary argument against this is that it would make debuff cc much more common / expected.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:14 PM by skinner904
hmm.. you know what.. im not really against any of that as long as its closely monitored as you say and reverts can be made quickly if something doesnt seem right. lets spice things up and see how it goes. i would have much preferred though if paladin had just received stoicism and/or celerity.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:25 PM by Simon73
So practically a paladin, not using mana for his chants, has two instant groups of 25% for free in two minutes.
Considering first instant he just needs to use a small mana pot to have second instant available after one minute.

At the same time he gets an AOTG3, that i spent more than 15RA on my warden, for free, to be used as above, at least twice.

I understand that you want people to group paladins, but this is way too much.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:26 PM by sav
What is this? Balancing will rolling the dices? If you want a paladin in an alb group, nerf the endu potions instead of creating a new game with questionable balancing.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:27 PM by Razur Ur
Plz give Champion, Thane and Reaver endureduce group chant + CL cast Disease for more hybrid tanks in tanker groups.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:28 PM by Nephamael
Paladin
Experimental: A new instant group heal that does not heal the paladin and on the highest level has a value of 3% per group member (making it a 24% instant in a full group) at a cost of 60% base mana on a 60 second cooldown. This means the actual cooldown is the mana cost.
Experimental: A new instant group damage add with a duration of 15 seconds of 2.5 dps per group member that will overwrite the damage add chant, 60% base mana cost and 60 second cooldown. This means the actual cooldown is the mana cost. As this overwrites the chant damage add this effectively adds a 12.5 dps damage add when in a full group.

this sounds nice but it might still not be enough to group a pally at all.

Mentalist
The mentalist will receive nearsight in their mana spec line, starting at 10 mana spec.
Experimental: The mentalist will receive the spiritual (as found on the eld/sm/cab) resist debuffs in their mentalism line.

this should have come a long long time ago, thanks, great change!

What about enchanter and RC RM tho, they need something too, ns or amnesia at least or let Enchanter instant haste debuff rupt to make his set a unique 1500 range strong set.

heir 3 individual resist debuffs replaced with a single debuff that covers all 3 resists. The duration of this triple resist debuff will be 8 seconds

Yes, viable alternative to changing specnukes to the common debuff dmgtype.

But: 8 sec is too short. - 15 sec is actually not very long if your group is under pressure and your debuffer gets out one cast if hes lucky.

The 8 sec will especially hurt hib and mid caster cause they dont have so much pet pressure.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:32 PM by gruenesschaf
Nephamael wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:28 PM
But: 8 sec is too short. - 15 sec is actually not very long if your group is under pressure and your debuffer gets out one cast if hes lucky.

The 8 sec will especially hurt hib and mid caster cause they dont have so much pet pressure.

8 seconds is the current duration of the used debuff types, aka body in alb, cold/spirit in mid, heat/energy in hib. Only the "unused" ones have 15 seconds today.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:38 PM by skipari
Looks somewhat decent imho, not sure if the cooldown is a bit low on the paladin, but at least not mirroring and cele, so that makes me happy.

Regarding the combined debuffs, is there a specific level it gets available, lets take in example a cabalist which has right now body (46), spirit(47), energy(49). Will it be the lowest level (46), medium (47) or last speclevel (49) one when he gets the combined debuff or is there some kind of streamlined over all realms like all get the last combined debuff with 47 or so?
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:38 PM by biGGio
sav wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:26 PM
What is this? Balancing will rolling the dices? If you want a paladin in an alb group, nerf the endu potions instead of creating a new game with questionable balancing.

What a genius thought.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:39 PM by Taln
What does OF charge looks like?
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:39 PM by Slash
Aint sure how NS on mentalist after root on bard would balance things up... lol...
Should already fix the mentalist being able to remove CC when releasing pet...it was a bug on minstrel like you said, why is it still running on menta ?

I personnally have nothing against changes in general, it could mix it up a bit.
But that's clearly nothing related to balance...
Paladin wont change a fight when the power cost is so high though.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:46 PM by Noleran
Great work and pretty good ideas about more value to more classes. Its that what some classes brings in grp. Its nice to see more Paladin, or more Mentalists.
I love custom changes!
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:48 PM by gruenesschaf
skipari wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:38 PM
Regarding the combined debuffs, is there a specific level it gets available, lets take in example a cabalist which has right now body (46), spirit(47), energy(49). Will it be the lowest level (46), medium (47) or last speclevel (49) one when he gets the combined debuff or is there some kind of streamlined over all realms like all get the last combined debuff with 47 or so?

It will not be higher than the current "wanted" primary debuff. If you have your red debuff today, e. g. body in alb, energy in hib or cold in mid you will have the red triple. It is possible that the triple will be available at an earlier level in some cases but not a later one.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:49 PM by skipari
Taln wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:39 PM
What does OF charge looks like?

basically an ability which lets you for some seconds sprint without endu costs until you switch the target. You don't have cc immunity or speedboosts like the NF Charge has.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:49 PM by Simon73
Slash wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:39 PM
Paladin wont change a fight when the power cost is so high though.

Are you serious?
Paladin DOESN'T use mana, hes' chants don't consume mana, while on live classic he would drain his mana from switching chants.
He uses mana only for ress (and i doubt he will ress with a cleric and a friar in party).

He has two instagroup of 25% or 2 AOTG3 for free, no rps.

On my warden i would have to spend 15RA for AOTG3 and at least 5-10 for group heal to have all of those.

GG
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:51 PM by BiGmAn
pala gets a 7.5 damage add already ? only buffing it to basically theurg dmg add for 15 seconds lmao calm down
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:54 PM by Slash
Simon73 wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:49 PM
Slash wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:39 PM
Paladin wont change a fight when the power cost is so high though.

Are you serious?
Paladin DOESN'T use mana, hes' chants don't consume mana, while on live classic he would drain his mana from switching chants.
He uses mana only for ress (and i doubt he will ress with a cleric and a friar in party).

He has two instagroup of 25% or 2 AOTG3 for free, no rps.

On my warden i would have to spend 15RA for AOTG3 and at least 5-10 for group heal to have all of those.

GG

Read again my dear, 60% base mana consumption.
And please, dont cry about warden in hib tanker, thanks.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:59 PM by Sepplord
Perfect Timing with the Levelevent incoming, so we can all get a Berserker levelled😆

Just kidding though, the other changes sound interesting, especially scaling the pala-abilities with groupsize to not make him overwhelming in smallmen/solo. Will be interesting to see how it plays out and If people are willing to adapt to test it

Can't wait to hear what else you got in the stew pot
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:07 PM by Taln
So what's the point of putting OF charge? That's ridiculous and not needed at all
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:08 PM by gruenesschaf
Taln wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:07 PM
So what's the point of putting OF charge? That's ridiculous and not needed at all

The reason it was not given to them was the believe that they didn't have it, while the situation isn't clear it now looks more like they had it.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:09 PM by hyshash
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:48 PM
It will not be higher than the current "wanted" primary debuff. If you have your red debuff today, e. g. body in alb, energy in hib or cold in mid you will have the red triple. It is possible that the triple will be available at an earlier level in some cases but not a later one.

implementing the new debuff with its coresponding debuffvalue of the old debuff at every lvl of the old debuff would be way better ...
so you get 9 new debuffs with 15/15/15, 15/15/30, 15/30/30 ... values
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:13 PM by Idra
1 specific custom change usable every 60 sec will not change anything to pally, they actually don't take AoG or VR RA. Fighting/garding,peeling, you don't play as healer and don't check the group life bars.Anyway they would use the Add dmg at inc and won't be able to cast IH. Making a synergy with necro...Necro aren't grp ! I don't know how the staff is thinking... This isn't the good way to do.
Make the heal chant consume mana as the past endu regen and give it twice his valor(46=>92hp per tick) and pally would have to choose increasing it via healing RA or going tanky with dex/MoB etc..That's the way to go as soon as you didn't increased healing skills of the friar. What alb is missing, is a third healing class and as a member of the Church it's the pally's role, to keep sense of it's roleplay.
As someone said before, why give pally a AoG for free when other realm need RA to get it?
Why giving pally a up only available when grped, as other classes get perma up?
Why a heal that don't heal himself? Too strong when solo? Pally have no dps and can't kill anything solo anyway,and it would be broken by disease while fighting a stealther.
You're talking about balance, but you give real advantages to hib, who's already OP with their toolbox classes, and gave "fake up" to alb.
You gave a up to lifetap nuke of the cabalist to balance the decrease of body debuff,but only on the last one at 45 body spec.Everybody know that caby are bi or tri spec and don't go 45 body, so once again, "fake up/balance"
You gave sorc a "matter nuke" when sorc are mind and body spec="fake up/balance"
Now you gave a 3in1 debuff! nice! as soon as anybody on Alb get energy DD, it's a 2in1 debuff for alb only. Benefit to necro and air Theur? they're not grp and theur go earth spec with ice secondary spec = "fake up"
You gave friar a grp endu economy buff, only on last rank, so you can't get it with yellow buff spec, "fake up" again and totally useless with a pally in group,while you're trying to make pally more lovely at same time.
What was expected for friar was an increase of his healing capacities (increase of the heal proc rate,25% livelike/mana consumption reduction(3big heal or hot and mana is out while SCed +26power)
We're not dumb, all your changes are hib friendly (like your rps bonus for underpopulation) and alb and mid get crap "fake up"
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:22 PM by Johny Rousquille
Here is finally the charge on Midgard, YOUHOU !!! After 2 years it was time! I can't believe it, it's Christmas before time or after time, I can't believe it!

It's sure with what you're proposing in front of us it's the least you can do.

Next up, the Bone Dancer with the life drain at 4 seconds so you could say it's a Midgard up.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:34 PM by FUINY7
Put back a little bit of RNG into damage, or this game will just be like chess with no variance.
Like in Poker, some players still play it even if they are perma loosing everyday, because of the luck factor they can have the feeling they can beat top tier group time to time.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:06 PM by boridi
Johny Rousquille wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:22 PM
Here is finally the charge on Midgard, YOUHOU !!! After 2 years it was time! I can't believe it, it's Christmas before time or after time, I can't believe it!

It's sure with what you're proposing in front of us it's the least you can do.

Next up, the Bone Dancer with the life drain at 4 seconds so you could say it's a Midgard up.

This version of charge is just endurance-free sprinting, which merc and BM already have. No cc immunity or speed burst.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:15 PM by Tulpa
Very concerned with Pali getting an ability they should get only as an RA!!!! It costs my warden 10-15 points for this to get the similar ability.

I like the rest of this as a test...

How about some warden love?
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:23 PM by Simon73
Slash wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:54 PM
Read again my dear, 60% base mana consumption.
And please, dont cry about warden in hib tanker, thanks.

OMG 60% base mana consumption.
So, paladin uses his new instant, goes to 40% mana (that is NOT consumed by chants), uses a basic mana pot and, guess what, he has again 60% power to use second instant.
Is it difficult or i need to do a drawing like i do with my daughters?

I cry? So for you it's normal that on a warden people use 25RA+ to have these things that a paladin will get for free?
LOL what a joke.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:23 PM by Campjr
Tulpa wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:15 PM
Very concerned with Pali getting an ability they should get only as an RA!!!! It costs my warden 10-15 points for this to get the similar ability.

I like the rest of this as a test...

How about some warden love?

Wardens do not need any love.. calm down
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:25 PM by Simon73
Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:13 PM
1 specific custom change usable every 60 sec will not change anything to pally, they actually don't take AoG or VR RA. Fighting/garding,peeling, you don't play as healer and don't check the group life bars.

Ok, after reading this it's useless going on.
AOTG3 is 16 DPS... this instant of paladin will be 2.5x8 = 20 dps -----> as AOTG4!!! aka 22 RA give for free.

And you say : You don't check group life bar when you tank.
LOL
I suppose at this point you don't even use discord to play with team mates.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:30 PM by Simon73
Campjr wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:23 PM
Tulpa wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:15 PM
Very concerned with Pali getting an ability they should get only as an RA!!!! It costs my warden 10-15 points for this to get the similar ability.

I like the rest of this as a test...

How about some warden love?

Wardens do not need any love.. calm down

I want then 22RA given for free to spend since paladin has my RA's for free.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:33 PM by Krishprolls
gruenesschaf wrote:
skipari wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:38 PM
Regarding the combined debuffs, is there a specific level it gets available, lets take in example a cabalist which has right now body (46), spirit(47), energy(49). Will it be the lowest level (46), medium (47) or last speclevel (49) one when he gets the combined debuff or is there some kind of streamlined over all realms like all get the last combined debuff with 47 or so?

It will not be higher than the current "wanted" primary debuff. If you have your red debuff today, e. g. body in alb, energy in hib or cold in mid you will have the red triple. It is possible that the triple will be available at an earlier level in some cases but not a later one.

What about you keep all 9 debuffs at the same level with different values instead of setting the 3 triple debuffs at what you think in the meta is the "wanted" one ?
Example on last level spec debuffs for RM let's say :
- lvl 45 would be : 40% heat and 30% matter and cold
- lvl 46 would be : 40% heat and matter, and 30% cold
- lvl 48 would be : 40% heat, matter and cold

About the paladin experiments, I feel like both evolutions could overtip the balance in favor of alb for 8v8 pugs.
The instant heal can also unbalance any situation except solo/duo/trio.
I don't see the damage add being a big change for either hardcore 8v8 or smallmen.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:46 PM by Idra
Simon73 wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:30 PM
Campjr wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:23 PM
Tulpa wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:15 PM
Very concerned with Pali getting an ability they should get only as an RA!!!! It costs my warden 10-15 points for this to get the similar ability.

I like the rest of this as a test...

How about some warden love?

Wardens do not need any love.. calm down

I want then 22RA given for free to spend since paladin has my RA's for free.

I want TWF and BT too on pally
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:50 PM by Centenario
Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:13 PM
1 specific custom change usable every 60 sec will not change anything to pally, they actually don't take AoG or VR RA. Fighting/garding,peeling, you don't play as healer and don't check the group life bars.Anyway they would use the Add dmg at inc and won't be able to cast IH. Making a synergy with necro...Necro aren't grp ! I don't know how the staff is thinking... This isn't the good way to do.
Make the heal chant consume mana as the past endu regen and give it twice his valor(46=>92hp per tick) and pally would have to choose increasing it via healing RA or going tanky with dex/MoB etc..That's the way to go as soon as you didn't increased healing skills of the friar. What alb is missing, is a third healing class and as a member of the Church it's the pally's role, to keep sense of it's roleplay.
As someone said before, why give pally a AoG for free when other realm need RA to get it?
Why giving pally a up only available when grped, as other classes get perma up?
Why a heal that don't heal himself? Too strong when solo? Pally have no dps and can't kill anything solo anyway,and it would be broken by disease while fighting a stealther.
You're talking about balance, but you give real advantages to hib, who's already OP with their toolbox classes, and gave "fake up" to alb.
You gave a up to lifetap nuke of the cabalist to balance the decrease of body debuff,but only on the last one at 45 body spec.Everybody know that caby are bi or tri spec and don't go 45 body, so once again, "fake up/balance"
You gave sorc a "matter nuke" when sorc are mind and body spec="fake up/balance"
Now you gave a 3in1 debuff! nice! as soon as anybody on Alb get energy DD, it's a 2in1 debuff for alb only. Benefit to necro and air Theur? they're not grp and theur go earth spec with ice secondary spec = "fake up"
You gave friar a grp endu economy buff, only on last rank, so you can't get it with yellow buff spec, "fake up" again and totally useless with a pally in group,while you're trying to make pally more lovely at same time.
What was expected for friar was an increase of his healing capacities (increase of the heal proc rate,25% livelike/mana consumption reduction(3big heal or hot and mana is out while SCed +26power)
We're not dumb, all your changes are hib friendly (like your rps bonus for underpopulation) and alb and mid get crap "fake up"

I kinda agree with this!
Except last sentence, I feel like mid got good stuff.

I think the increased heal on paladin might be good, but he needs more.
By the time he can reach something to snare/peel, or something to guard or something to dps or something to interrupt, they are most likely dead, because they are missing a third healer, a bubble, they are NS or out of range.
Stoicism can help for reaching something, but it would eat on the armsman role.
Ranged abilities would allow him to stay near guard targets, he has none except crappy chants. At least warden got heals and cure NS and bubble.

Pally needs conquer style on crush/slash/thrust, he needs +1 damage table, he needs reduced taunt cd for interrupt, you can remove the self AF buff, the damage add and the armor chant. Remove the resist chants and give him castable friar resists. Remove endo regen and give it to friar conc based buff. Give him bubble chant!
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:54 PM by Idra
Simon73 wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:25 PM
Ok, after reading this it's useless going on.
AOTG3 is 16 DPS... this instant of paladin will be 2.5x8 = 20 dps -----> as AOTG4!!! aka 22 RA give for free.

And you say : You don't check group life bar when you tank.
LOL
I suppose at this point you don't even use discord to play with team mates.

AoG don't depend of number of ppl in grp, and if you mind a little bit of the meta that Staff imagine with this setup, 1cleric 1 friar 1 pally 1 necro 1caby 1 theur 1sorc 1 merc, what a gorgeous benefit !
Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:03 PM by Stylus
I like these ideas, its a step in the right direction.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:31 PM by Centenario
Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:54 PM
, and if you mind a little bit of the meta that Staff imagine with this setup, 1cleric 1 friar 1 pally 1 necro 1caby 1 theur 1sorc 1 merc, what a gorgeous benefit !
I think meta should be:
Cab/theurg/wiz for 1 range dps with NS slot
Cleric
Cleric
Friar or paladin for endo/cure NS or bubble
Sorc or minst for speed and mezz
Merc or arms for peels
2 random dps slot (for group differentiation)

This means giving minst better mezz and sorc better speed, maybe giving friar as much hustling/hassling as bard from range (amnesia/root/instant dd) giving paladin bubble and friar endo. Giving theurg NS.

But finding 1 cleric is hard enough atm, so having 2 would be luxury.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:36 PM by Simon73
Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:54 PM
AoG don't depend of number of ppl in grp, and if you mind a little bit of the meta that Staff imagine with this setup, 1cleric 1 friar 1 pally 1 necro 1caby 1 theur 1sorc 1 merc, what a gorgeous benefit !

They do this for 8man, not for solo-small man. So i obviously think of benefits for 8man.

If you want to talk of meta, staff imagines hib mage setup (since they keep nerfing tanks).
So 4x caster, two druid one bard one warden.
Yeah, AOTG is handy for druid pets.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:38 PM by Simon73
Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:46 PM
Simon73 wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:30 PM
Campjr wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:23 PM
Tulpa wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:15 PM
Very concerned with Pali getting an ability they should get only as an RA!!!! It costs my warden 10-15 points for this to get the similar ability.

I like the rest of this as a test...

How about some warden love?

Wardens do not need any love.. calm down

I want then 22RA given for free to spend since paladin has my RA's for free.

I want TWF and BT too on pally

They aren't giving anything free to warden, while they are totally INVENTING a new paladin.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:40 PM by stonesouldier
I don't see anything super-bad here but I'm also wary about the theurg ice pets though. They do spirit damage here right? (So the combo body/spirit/energy debuff is even stronger than ever on Alb. Maybe make the ice pet damage type crush or something neutral if it gets too bad?

The only thing I really want to see is a nerf on charmed pets. No reason for minstrels to get those red pets. Only Minstrels can do that as Mentalists are useless if they do so because of power drain...
Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:47 PM by Simon73
Centenario wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:31 PM
This means giving minst better mezz and sorc better speed, maybe giving friar as much hustling/hassling as bard from range (amnesia/root/instant dd) giving paladin bubble and friar endo. Giving theurg NS.



Your drug dealer gives you bad products... i would change him.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:53 PM by easytoremember
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:48 PM
skipari wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:38 PM
Regarding the combined debuffs, is there a specific level it gets available, lets take in example a cabalist which has right now body (46), spirit(47), energy(49). Will it be the lowest level (46), medium (47) or last speclevel (49) one when he gets the combined debuff or is there some kind of streamlined over all realms like all get the last combined debuff with 47 or so?

It will not be higher than the current "wanted" primary debuff. If you have your red debuff today, e. g. body in alb, energy in hib or cold in mid you will have the red triple. It is possible that the triple will be available at an earlier level in some cases but not a later one.

Someone beat me to it^^
before:

30 Body debuff 30
32 Energy debuff 30
35 Spirit debuff 30
44 Body debuff 50
47 Energy debff 50
49 Spirit debuff 50

after:

22 Body15
24 Body15/Energy15
26 Body15/Energy15/Spirit15
30 Body30/Energy15/Spirit15
32 Body30/Energy30/Spirit15
35 Body30/Energy30/Spirit30
44 Body50/Energy30/Spirit30
47 Body50/Energy50/Spirit30
49 Body50/Energy50/Spirit50

The problem I can see with that is the debuffed get a red icon for yellow delve on 2 of the 3, a yellow icon for blue delve on 2 of the 3, and 2 spells early on with a single or double resist change.
Simultaneously sticking all 3 at one level gives the final versions that usually require 2-6 further into the spec to get

A possible remedy is to use different icons or naming for the 3 types-
15
30/15/15
50/30/30 single

15/15
30/30/15
50/50/30 double

15/15/15
30/30/30
50/50/50 triple
Thu 7 Jan 2021 11:07 PM by ExcretusMaximus
So to make them "groupable" you are giving Paladins free VR and free AoTG, but on shorter timers and better numbers?

I like that you're thinking outside the box, but this is kind of crazy, especially since they can already spec both of those realm abilities.
Thu 7 Jan 2021 11:25 PM by easytoremember
Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:13 PM
Making a synergy with necro...Necro aren't grp ! I don't know how the staff is thinking... This isn't the good way to do.
With the resist change Necro's damage is bundled into the Body debuff train

Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:13 PM
Why giving pally a up only available when grped, as other classes get perma up?
Why a heal that don't heal himself? Too strong when solo? Pally have no dps and can't kill anything solo anyway,and it would be broken by disease while fighting a stealther.
You'd be making them even bulkier even if only for 15 seconds. ~3000 hp, 3% tick would be 90, 45 if diseased. They have lower damage because they have huge AF and pulse healing, and the smart ones twist the resist they're being hit by

Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:13 PM
You're talking about balance, but you give real advantages to hib, who's already OP with their toolbox classes, and gave "fake up" to alb.
Did you know Clerics do spirit damage too?

Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:13 PM
You gave a up to lifetap nuke of the cabalist to balance the decrease of body debuff,but only on the last one at 45 body spec.Everybody know that caby are bi or tri spec and don't go 45 body, so once again, "fake up/balance"
The base lifetaps were nerfed a bit and that was the point. The spec lifetap in Body was boosted so that xp'er see no change and should someone pick up 45 Body its damage output is the usual

Idra wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:13 PM
Now you gave a 3in1 debuff! nice! as soon as anybody on Alb get energy DD, it's a 2in1 debuff for alb only. Benefit to necro and air Theur? they're not grp and theur go earth spec with ice secondary spec = "fake up"
Similar to above I don't understand why you're applying pre-patch logic to post-patch changes. They might be picked up (the necro) because of the debuff change, and theurgs may more often put points towards ice pets. Regardless of the current setups this is a buff to potential setups. This also changes what you might find in smallman
Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:20 AM by Ardri
Good changes except for pally. Free aotg? Free % based VR? Except they’re better values than the RAs? Makes no sense.

Also, pretty sure 60% base power is much lower, guessing 40% from actual bar? Like theurg pets are base power so it costs less than delve. So pally uses insta, goes to 60%, then uses pot+charge to 100%, and can still get 2 more instas off before oop. Not even considering power regen, raging power, and mcl.

Pally is busted with DD + all this.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:27 AM by Jingo NZ
Good thinking with the resist debuff changes. This step will open up caster dps spots for more classes/specs.

Consider making the same change to resist buffs; putting the 3 into a single spell. Another nice change would be making blue resist buffs a baseline 50 spell. This would help with a number of underused healer specs (eg smite, cave, nature) .
Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:27 AM by Smoover
.....
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:20 AM by Freedomcall
NS on mana mentalist is insane.
You can't do this.
A line with 2 stackable dots and HoT doesn't need new powerful tool.
Don't forget that mentalists can HEAL.

It seems to me that you guys are too obsessed with 8v8 perspective balancing.
But think about other balance such as solo and zerg.
These 'balancing' for 8v8 is making imbalance on zerg perspective.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:31 AM by daytonchambers
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:20 AM
NS on mana mentalist is insane.
You can't do this.
A line with 2 stackable dots and HoT doesn't need new powerful tool.
Don't forget that mentalists can HEAL.

It seems to me that you guys are too obsessed with 8v8 perspective balancing.
But think about other balance such as solo and zerg.
These 'balancing' for 8v8 is making imbalance on zerg perspective.

The mana line on the Mentalist has a single target spec DoT, and an aoe spec DoT, and they do not stack. Their second dot which stacks with the mana dot is in the mentalism base line.

Plus, Mana Ments aren't usually part of 8man groups. Light ments are, and those light ments don't sub-spec mana so this change would not affect them, positively or negatively.

That said, if they add a nearsight to the mentalist it should be in the mentalism line. Of all the signature spec lines in the game it's one of the worst, and could use some love.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:36 AM by gruenesschaf
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:31 AM
That said, if they add a nearsight to the mentalist it should be in the mentalism line. Of all the signature spec lines in the game it's one of the worst, and could use some love.

Did you miss that the mentalism menta will become the debuffer on the hib energy train?
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:48 AM by daytonchambers
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:36 AM
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:31 AM
That said, if they add a nearsight to the mentalist it should be in the mentalism line. Of all the signature spec lines in the game it's one of the worst, and could use some love.

Did you miss that the mentalism menta will become the debuffer on the hib energy train?

I didn't miss it, and it's a nice change.

However, I don't believe that the debuff alone will persuade many mentalists to go beyond the current sub-spec of 28 mentalism for the mez cure, In my opinion.

Tho since I love wacky utility builds a split mana/mentalism build might be crazy fun with these changes.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:04 AM by Samo
Midgard get OF Charge like BM and Merc find the mistake... Pala AOTG for free and Menta NS.

really sweet, ALbion needs indeed more love:-)
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:07 AM by Freedomcall
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:31 AM
The mana line on the Mentalist has a single target spec DoT, and an aoe spec DoT, and they do not stack. Their second dot which stacks with the mana dot is in the mentalism base line.

Plus, Mana Ments aren't usually part of 8man groups. Light ments are, and those light ments don't sub-spec mana so this change would not affect them, positively or negatively.

That said, if they add a nearsight to the mentalist it should be in the mentalism line. Of all the signature spec lines in the game it's one of the worst, and could use some love.

Yeah, that was poor wording of me.
I tried to say: a line that makes 2 dots stackable.

Anyway, as I wrote in my previous post, my point is that NS on mana ment will harm the zerg fight.
Mana ments haven't been used on 8v8, but they were already very good in zerg fight or at keep defense.
Giving mana ments red/yellow NS will be a huge boost in solo/zerg perspective.

And I find mentalism line very useful.
It can be bad as a main-spec, but it is one of the greatest lines as a sub-spec.
With 28 mentalism, they get demezz and 44s single mezz.
And they get useful major heal, which is already buffed for its cast time and power consumption here.
I don't know how many times I saved my groupmates/pets due to that major heal even as a light ment.
You can damage hard and also heal hard.
This is already very good.

Just look at enchantment line or summoning line which people even don't spec in as a sub-spec.
Mentalism line is not bad.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:35 AM by Freedomcall
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:36 AM
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:31 AM
That said, if they add a nearsight to the mentalist it should be in the mentalism line. Of all the signature spec lines in the game it's one of the worst, and could use some love.

Did you miss that the mentalism menta will become the debuffer on the hib energy train?

If mentalism menta acts a new debuffer, hib 8 man gets 2NS(ment and eld) in group.
Newly introduced energy dd is a "Baseline" dd, and thus points over 50 composite spec does nothing on energy dd damage.
So energy train with mentalism ment debuffer will be like this.

1. Ment : 47 Mentalism, 26 mana(blue NS)
2. Chanter : I think chanters' spec will remain same cuz there is no good tools on light/enchant line. so 49mana or 48mana for last PBAE.
3. Eld : Elds don't have to care about void line cuz "Mentalist will be the debuffer", and they can be split spec cuz "All you need to 50 composite mana".
So specs like 37light/39mana is viable(yellow NS)

It looks to me that giving NS to mentalist is too much in this setup.

Or is there anything I am missing, or any other ideal setup you have thought of?
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:36 AM by daytonchambers
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:07 AM
Anyway, as I wrote in my previous post, my point is that NS on mana ment will harm the zerg fight.
Mana ments haven't been used on 8v8, but they were already very good in zerg fight or at keep defense.
Giving mana ments red/yellow NS will be a huge boost in solo/zerg perspective.


How will this change make them any more damaging in a zerg fight when compared to a Cabalist? The cabby has access to NS and an ae dot as well. Plus a super pet that can ignore keep walls and chain-stun you while being healed from out of LoS. I'd say the advantage goes to the cabalist in ZvZ.

This change finally gives them a long range spell, since at present they are pretty much the only caster that has neither instants nor a spell that has a range over 1500 units.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:42 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:35 AM
Newly introduced energy dd is a "Baseline" dd, and thus points over 50 composite spec does nothing on energy dd damage.

Where did you ever get this idea? Points over 50 definitely increase damage, and it's easily tested.

It's not a lot, but it's definitely there.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:51 AM by Xyzir
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:36 AM
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:07 AM
Anyway, as I wrote in my previous post, my point is that NS on mana ment will harm the zerg fight.
Mana ments haven't been used on 8v8, but they were already very good in zerg fight or at keep defense.
Giving mana ments red/yellow NS will be a huge boost in solo/zerg perspective.


How will this change make them any more damaging in a zerg fight when compared to a Cabalist? The cabby has access to NS and an ae dot as well. Plus a super pet that can ignore keep walls and chain-stun you while being healed from out of LoS. I'd say the advantage goes to the cabalist in ZvZ.

This change finally gives them a long range spell, since at present they are pretty much the only caster that has neither instants nor a spell that has a range over 1500 units.

^^ Don't forget the AoE disease on the cabby. Advantage cabby for sure. I also agree with your previous point of ideally the nearsight goes to the mentalism line instead of mana.

This will indeed be beneficial for hib zergs due to the plethora of mana ments, similar to how earth wizards get near sight (and formerly had the AE DoT). To be frank, the spirit of these changes were intended to boost group v group fights - I think the ZvZ is secondary... although perhaps intentional?
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:10 AM by Freedomcall
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:36 AM
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:07 AM
Anyway, as I wrote in my previous post, my point is that NS on mana ment will harm the zerg fight.
Mana ments haven't been used on 8v8, but they were already very good in zerg fight or at keep defense.
Giving mana ments red/yellow NS will be a huge boost in solo/zerg perspective.


How will this change make them any more damaging in a zerg fight when compared to a Cabalist? The cabby has access to NS and an ae dot as well. Plus a super pet that can ignore keep walls and chain-stun you while being healed from out of LoS. I'd say the advantage goes to the cabalist in ZvZ.

This change finally gives them a long range spell, since at present they are pretty much the only caster that has neither instants nor a spell that has a range over 1500 units.

Only listing strengths of cabalists and ignoring all the tools ments got doesn't look balanced comparison.
If you compare mana ments to cabbies, ments get baseline stun, HoT, mezz, demezz and major heals, all very powerful tools when used correctly.
Cabby and Ment are just different classes.
Cabby taking advantage from NS/disease and pets, while ments is combined with better CC and supportive roles.

You said ments are pretty much the only class that has a spell over 1500 range, which is not true, considering so many classes such as BD, SM, etc.
Instead, I think you were trying to mention that ment is the only cloth caster that can cast heal spells, which grants them amazing viability.
Not to mention the RA static tempest is your friend.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:17 AM by Freedomcall
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:42 AM
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:35 AM
Newly introduced energy dd is a "Baseline" dd, and thus points over 50 composite spec does nothing on energy dd damage.

Where did you ever get this idea? Points over 50 definitely increase damage, and it's easily tested.

It's not a lot, but it's definitely there.

You mean baseline dds overall or the newly introduced DDs?
Well, I've tested with my casters on dummies that 50+15 spec and 35+15 does the same damage with baseline spells.
Is the newly introduced DDs are working differently or the damage is different on players?
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:21 AM by Bry
Paladin
Experimental: A new instant group heal that does not heal the paladin and on the highest level has a value of 3% per group member (making it a 24% instant in a full group) at a cost of 60% base mana on a 60 second cooldown. This means the actual cooldown is the mana cost.
Experimental: A new instant group damage add with a duration of 15 seconds of 2.5 dps per group member that will overwrite the damage add chant, 60% base mana cost and 60 second cooldown. This means the actual cooldown is the mana cost. As this overwrites the chant damage add this effectively adds a 12.5 dps damage add when in a full group.

This needs to be a 10 minute cooldown as this is basically VR 2 and Anger of the Gods 2. thats 20 RA points for Free on a 1 minute cooldown. Broken.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:38 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:17 AM
You mean baseline dds overall or the newly introduced DDs?

I didn't check anything other than the new spells, and like I said, it's tiny, but every point of composite spec over the level of the spell was giving me one extra damage on the level 50 26% dummies.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:41 AM by Jingo NZ
Nearsight in the mana line for Mentalists could work if the aoe dot was moved from mana to mentalism. Then it won't unbalance the zerg v zerg, while giving the desired nearsight to the Hib 8v8 "energy train".
Fri 8 Jan 2021 4:07 AM by Freedomcall
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:38 AM
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:17 AM
You mean baseline dds overall or the newly introduced DDs?

I didn't check anything other than the new spells, and like I said, it's tiny, but every point of composite spec over the level of the spell was giving me one extra damage on the level 50 26% dummies.

Just tested out the new spell damages.
39+14(comp 53) and 49+15(comp 64) do exactly the same damage with new energy DD.
Remember that baseline spells are capped at comp50 no matter what their spell lvl is.
Even if it is lvl45 spell, it caps at comp 50.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:14 AM by daytonchambers
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:10 AM
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:36 AM
This change finally gives them a long range spell, since at present they are pretty much the only caster that has neither instants nor a spell that has a range over 1500 units.

You said ments are pretty much the only class that has a spell over 1500 range, which is not true, considering so many classes such as BD, SM, etc.
Instead, I think you were trying to mention that ment is the only cloth caster that can cast heal spells, which grants them amazing viability.
Not to mention the RA static tempest is your friend.

I said they don't have instants OR a spell with range over 1500. BD has instant taps and debuffs, SM has instant single target and aoe debuffs. Mentalist has neither.

And yes, I know how nice the mentalist heal can be, I have had many 50 ments over the last 20 years. I've even run 33light 42mentalism on this server for a while, playing as counter CC/ spot heals while zerg surfing and indeed it was both effective and a lot of fun. But with these new changes a Mentalist will become an MA, debuffing for an energy nuke train. And your team will scream at you when you have someone in your own group targetted to cast a single target heal on someone.

Plus... good luck healing in that ZvZ battle with the cabalist stun pet on top of you. You know, the one you QC mezzed and then your cc was instantly popped by someone slinging damage all over the place. Which, in a zerg fight, is incredibly likely.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:17 AM by opossum12
stonesouldier wrote:
Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:40 PM
I don't see anything super-bad here but I'm also wary about the theurg ice pets though. They do spirit damage here right? (So the combo body/spirit/energy debuff is even stronger than ever on Alb. Maybe make the ice pet damage type crush or something neutral if it gets too bad?

The only thing I really want to see is a nerf on charmed pets. No reason for minstrels to get those red pets. Only Minstrels can do that as Mentalists are useless if they do so because of power drain...

You realize charm spell is for the mob type and not level right?
Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:33 AM by Freedomcall
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:14 AM
Freedomcall wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:10 AM
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 2:36 AM
This change finally gives them a long range spell, since at present they are pretty much the only caster that has neither instants nor a spell that has a range over 1500 units.

You said ments are pretty much the only class that has a spell over 1500 range, which is not true, considering so many classes such as BD, SM, etc.
Instead, I think you were trying to mention that ment is the only cloth caster that can cast heal spells, which grants them amazing viability.
Not to mention the RA static tempest is your friend.

I said they don't have instants OR a spell with range over 1500. BD has instant taps and debuffs, SM has instant single target and aoe debuffs. Mentalist has neither.

And yes, I know how nice the mentalist heal can be, I have had many 50 ments over the last 20 years. I've even run 33light 42mentalism on this server for a while, playing as counter CC/ spot heals while zerg surfing and indeed it was both effective and a lot of fun. But with these new changes a Mentalist will become an MA, debuffing for an energy nuke train. And your team will scream at you when you have someone in your own group targetted to cast a single target heal on someone.

Plus... good luck healing in that ZvZ battle with the cabalist stun pet on top of you. You know, the one you QC mezzed and then your cc was instantly popped by someone slinging damage all over the place. Which, in a zerg fight, is incredibly likely.

What more likely is cabby pet cleared off by your realmmates in zerg fight.
And if you want to talk like those specific scenarios, imagine a ment baseline stuns cabby and cabby being assisted to death.
It's all the same. Every class can describe the worst scenario very easily.

And you keep talking about cabby vs ment as if it is 1v1, but the game should not be mirrored nor only 2 realms should be considered.
If ments get the NS, this is not only affecting vs alb but also vs mids.
Devs have set goals that they will buff mid caster grps, but what should mid caster grp do against 2 NS classes?
SM or BD should be also granted NS in their spec line(Dark or BA) if they want to give ments NS.
Even in zerg perspective, more NS class on hib will undermine mid zerg, so there should be more balancing in the big picture.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:47 AM by Sepplord
balance towards midgard is hard to gauge here, as midgard changes haven't been announced yet (at least the class specific ones...)

i guess the primary goal at first now is to make different setups viable/make setups more flexibel
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:25 AM by byron
I'm a melee class user. I hope the balance #3 will bring some news also for heavy/light tanks, at the moment I see only good changes for Alb (Paladin and Merc) on this side but nothing for others (the Of charge for zerk is a joke imho). A lot of changes for casters, it seems that caster group is the direction to play now and, as a tank player, it is a little worrying. Hope the balance #3 will be focused more on Midgard too, the realm with 0 relics
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:46 AM by Sepplord
don't get your hopes up too high...midgard gets shit on in the zergwarfare but isn't really bad in 8vs8, which these changes are targetted at...
Fri 8 Jan 2021 11:32 AM by boridi
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:46 AM
don't get your hopes up too high...midgard gets shit on in the zergwarfare but isn't really bad in 8vs8, which these changes are targetted at...
Alb isn't bad in 8v8 and they are getting a ton of changes
Fri 8 Jan 2021 11:43 AM by MeatBicycle
I dislike the changes right now. I got no clue why you have to improve alb melee first. They dominate with their caster setup, they dominate in zerg/numbers and now you buff alb melee first? Playing mid is getting more and more frustrating, but thanks for the useless of charge on zerkers.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:01 PM by Sepplord
boridi wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 11:32 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:46 AM
don't get your hopes up too high...midgard gets shit on in the zergwarfare but isn't really bad in 8vs8, which these changes are targetted at...
Alb isn't bad in 8v8 and they are getting a ton of changes

Just repeating what was explained in the initial announcements.
Albcaster was really strong and mainly responsible for the debuffnerf. Streaming the different debuffs into one helps the traditional albsetup only slightly while being bigger for hin/mid
Alb-tanker is relatively bad, and the unpicked classes are getting the huge reworks/buffs
Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:13 PM by Smoover
feels like zerg content creators trying to balance 8on8 . maybe ask pilz what to do XD
also get the fact the skill level on this server never can be balanced . u created mass zombys , deal with it ^^
Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:15 PM by sav
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 11:43 AM
I dislike the changes right now. I got no clue why you have to improve alb melee first. They dominate with their caster setup, they dominate in zerg/numbers and now you buff alb melee first? Playing mid is getting more and more frustrating, but thanks for the useless of charge on zerkers.
And even a alb tank setup can be pretty good in 8vs8. Pale played pretty good with the necro and af debuff in the group, other groups did the same. One Group was running with 2 Earth Theurgs and a Necro and just spammed everyone with pets to death.

It just seems like the devs are desperate to group every class in every situation in the game - especially in 8vs8.
But why does it have to be like that? Some classes are particularly good in PVE, others in 1vs1, others in small mens, others in 8vs8 and others in Zerg. Why do you have to make everything the same?
What comes next? There is only one class and the more rounds you play, the more spells you can buy? Welcome to the Dark Age of Counter Strike
Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:05 PM by Valaraukar
The OF charge for zerk is just ridicolous, the Thane "buff" with shared debuff assist is just a little less ridicolous.
And obviously all the buffs go to Albion, they cried so much with the "presumed" debuff nerf (just to remember... It's a nerf for everyone not only for albion casters) and the removal of that insane aoe dot out of nothing for wizards that something had to be done SOON!

Ah yes almost forgot.... Let's give also another NS to hib casters!
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:07 PM by Bowspine
Where's Charge for Zerks?
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:10 PM by Lollie
Bowspine wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:07 PM
Where's Charge for Zerks?

On their quick bar for 1 click, the deleted as it's utter shit, but at least it's shit for all 3 realms!
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:16 PM by Simon73
call it sprint, to charge.
Charge is TOTALLY an other thing

With this sprint you just don't consume end (if you don't have end pot) for ten seconds i think, but you can be mezzed cc lulla etc etc
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:29 PM by Bry
The triple debuffs at max level (40%) are as follows:
Sorc - level 44
Cab - level 46

Spiritmaster - level 45
Runemaster - level 48

Eld - level 47
Enchanter - level 49


Can we please get some freaking balance on this? Why not make the triple debuff be the same level for all 3 realms? Why make Enchanters spend so many points on getting a debuff that Sorcs get at level 44.

Either Make them all level 44 or all level 49, or somewhere in between. Level 46 for a max triple debuff seems to be a sweet spot. Pick the same level for all lines and realms. This makes no sense.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:35 PM by gruenesschaf
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:29 PM
The triple debuffs at max level (40%) are as follows:
Sorc - level 44
Cab - level 46

Spiritmaster - level 45
Runemaster - level 48

Eld - level 47
Enchanter - level 49


Can we please get some freaking balance on this? Why not make the triple debuff be the same level for all 3 realms? Why make Enchanters spend so many points on getting a debuff that Sorcs get at level 44.

Either Make them all level 44 or all level 49. Pick the same level. This makes no sense.

The triple is where the primary debuff was previously, e. g. heat for ench was at 49 so the triple is at 49 as well.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:41 PM by Sepplord
just because the debuff is at different levels, doesn't neccessarily mean it is unfair
you have to consider the whole specc and what it brings and what the class is supposed to do with it

(just as random example because i don't want to use a an actual change: imagine they gave all speedclasses a 4 secondstun, all the same stats, baseline. Would that be equal for all realms? No, it would heavily benefit Skalds, while being mediocre on bards and minstrels wouldn't even slot it)


Not saying the change is perfectly fair, in fact i have no idea at all...but you shouldn't just look at the levels and scream "unfair" without considering the circumstances


EDIT: gruenes answered while typed FML
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:55 PM by Bry
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:35 PM
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:29 PM
The triple debuffs at max level (40%) are as follows:
Sorc - level 44
Cab - level 46

Spiritmaster - level 45
Runemaster - level 48

Eld - level 47
Enchanter - level 49


Can we please get some freaking balance on this? Why not make the triple debuff be the same level for all 3 realms? Why make Enchanters spend so many points on getting a debuff that Sorcs get at level 44.

Either Make them all level 44 or all level 49. Pick the same level. This makes no sense.

The triple is where the primary debuff was previously, e. g. heat for ench was at 49 so the triple is at 49 as well.

the primary debuff for each realm was already imbalanced. Albs - body 46, mids - cold 48, hibs - heat 49. Make them the same level. I'm just asking for balance.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 4:03 PM by gruenesschaf
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:55 PM
the primary debuff for each realm was already imbalanced. Albs - body 46, mids - cold 48, hibs - heat 49. Make them the same level. I'm just asking for balance.

While making everything the same would produce balance, it's not required and in this case also not desired. While surely many of the chosen levels for skills are less than ideal and there is room for adjustments, specs have been made around them and people know what to expect from a given debuff class and for now the triple debuff is available at the "wanted" primary level.
The intent of the change is to allow more classes to jump on the existing debuff train, not to buff the debuffer themselves.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 4:03 PM by Sepplord


Damn grünes, you are in a streaks today with posting while i am wrong too 😁 the rolleyes was directed to the Post before just repeating themselves
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:29 PM by Bry
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 4:03 PM
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:55 PM
the primary debuff for each realm was already imbalanced. Albs - body 46, mids - cold 48, hibs - heat 49. Make them the same level. I'm just asking for balance.

While making everything the same would produce balance, it's not required and in this case also not desired. While surely many of the chosen levels for skills are less than ideal and there is room for adjustments, specs have been made around them and people know what to expect from a given debuff class and for now the triple debuff is available at the "wanted" primary level.
The intent of the change is to allow more classes to jump on the existing debuff train, not to buff the debuffer themselves.

Balance is not desired? Balance should be the primary focus to keep the game healthy. When one realm has more strength, especially on this server, people tend to play the strong realm. This creates a player imbalance, which isn't fun for any realm. Ultimately it creates frustration and an anti-fun playing experience. Balance is desired by the players.

When the class survey came out, Wardens were the most voted as the weakest class, with 30% of the population saying Warden was the weakest. Since then, warden has had zero buffs. Meanwhile, Friars and Paladins (which had nowhere close to a 30% vote on being underpowered) have received multiple buffs.

With that in mind to the current topic, Enchanters have long been one of the lowest utility classes in the game. They are the only caster without a root/mez. Cabalists get the highest body debuff at level 46, while still having much more utility, and they can put more points in to the baseline body to have a more effecient nuke. Runemasters have to spec 48 RC for the cold debuff, but they have root, ns, and baseline debuffs.

Enchanters have to spec 49 mana only to get the debuff, which leaves 22 points in light. It is incredibly power ineffecient and has a high variance. The light baseline nuke is the most casted spell an enchanter uses. There is no reason the main spell a character uses to be so ineffecient due to poor spec choice. This can easily be fixed by balancing the debuff and and moving it lower. Even putting at level 48 would be helpful. All an enchanter has to bring is a debuff, nuke, stun, pbaoe, and a pet. The insta melee debuff and dehaste are very low level due to only being allowed to put 22 points in light. Allowing to have 2 more points to spec in to light bringing it to 24 isn't going to break anything. It is still lower than what cabs can put in to body, since they can go 46 spirit.

Hib caster 8man has been next to non-existant. Show some love. Its not going to break anything. Hibs already have to face red heat resists since friars and shamans can easily and viably spec in to red heat resist.

-Floorz
RR11L4 Enchanter
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:09 PM by Sepplord
You keep repeating yourself without addressing the explanation s being made towards your Arguments...
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:59 PM by gruenesschaf
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:29 PM
Balance is not desired? Balance should be the primary focus to keep the game healthy.

Good job with selectively interpreting that part that way. It should be quite obvious that the meaning of the text is that to achieve balance not everything has to be the same and that everything being the same is not desired. The text however acknowledges that yes, if everything is the same balance is an obvious result.

Don't expect any more responses if you're arguing in bad faith.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:36 PM by opossum12
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:29 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 4:03 PM
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:55 PM
the primary debuff for each realm was already imbalanced. Albs - body 46, mids - cold 48, hibs - heat 49. Make them the same level. I'm just asking for balance.

While making everything the same would produce balance, it's not required and in this case also not desired. While surely many of the chosen levels for skills are less than ideal and there is room for adjustments, specs have been made around them and people know what to expect from a given debuff class and for now the triple debuff is available at the "wanted" primary level.
The intent of the change is to allow more classes to jump on the existing debuff train, not to buff the debuffer themselves.

.
Hib caster 8man has been next to non-existant. Show some love. Its not going to break anything. Hibs already have to face red heat resists since friars and shamans can easily and viably spec in to red heat resist.

-Floorz
RR11L4 Enchanter

You want enchanters buffed, because at the light of the recent mentalist changes, hib caster did in fact get a buff by now going against blue/yellow resists.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:45 PM by ExcretusMaximus
I sure am shocked that the guy running a high RR caster group wants casters buffed.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:43 PM by Bradekes
I would say a good reason for an enchanters resist debuff to be at a higher level would be that both enchanter caster pets share the same damage type as their resist debuff. That being a unique feature of the class does give a reason for a higher level resist debuff.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:21 PM by Bry
I'm speaking out of issues with balance. I've played all 3 realms. The argument isn't in bad faith, but a genuine concern for the health of the server. The hib caster group was weak at the beginning of the server and is still weak, which is evident by the lack of 8mans running any kind of a caster train.

I enjoy the game and appreciate the work the devs put in here.

I'm pointing out desparities among the realms and asking for balance. There is no need to twist words and make personal attacks. Take that as you will.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:29 PM by Bry
opossum12 wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:36 PM
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:29 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 4:03 PM
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:55 PM
the primary debuff for each realm was already imbalanced. Albs - body 46, mids - cold 48, hibs - heat 49. Make them the same level. I'm just asking for balance.

While making everything the same would produce balance, it's not required and in this case also not desired. While surely many of the chosen levels for skills are less than ideal and there is room for adjustments, specs have been made around them and people know what to expect from a given debuff class and for now the triple debuff is available at the "wanted" primary level.
The intent of the change is to allow more classes to jump on the existing debuff train, not to buff the debuffer themselves.

.
Hib caster 8man has been next to non-existant. Show some love. Its not going to break anything. Hibs already have to face red heat resists since friars and shamans can easily and viably spec in to red heat resist.

-Floorz
RR11L4 Enchanter

You want enchanters buffed, because at the light of the recent mentalist changes, hib caster did in fact get a buff by now going against blue/yellow resists.

The energy baseline to hib isn't a buff by any means. Elds lose utility by being forced to spec void, which they lose points in debuffs, nearsight, disease, and mez by having to spec low in light/mana to go 47 void for the debuff.
Mentailists have to spec low in light which means they cant have a decent pet. Mentalism is a near useless spec, so going high mentalism for the debuffs is practically worthless.

There is no spec dd for energy, so hib loses any spec dd options going for energy vs heat/cold.

As for the resists, it is the only benefit as albs and mids dont run red energy. The vast majority of 8mans will have yellow energy resist, so the idea that a hib train loses spec nukes and the vast majority of utility to go for an energy train to do the same damage is definately not a buff by any means.

This is not a buff to hib. It is a just a neutral or somewhat weaker change.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:31 PM by Ranfars
It is just a missed opportunity to give a minor boost to a class that runs in a setup (hib caster) that they said they wanted to help the viability of. I don't think that the +2 or +4 points in Light would be game breaking if they put the tri-debuff at 48 or 47 spec. Would have been interesting weighing the extra points in light or getting the best pbae if it was 47.

It certainly wouldn't be as substantial as cabalists now having access to 40% spirit debuff for theurgists, necros, and (lol)clerics. It is an unintended but welcomed change is that an entire new spec nuke can now be max debuffed for at no spec cost, but the idea of decreasing the variance of a baseline nuke putting it in line with the other realms is not worth consideration. They rounded down for alb and rounded up for hib.

Mentalist changes and the energy train are purely for hybrid setups without an enchanter as far as I can tell. Hib Caster groups lose far too much utility to invest in an energy train. Going up against softer resists is not made up for by the lack of a high delve spec nuke. The only synergy added for hib caster grps with enchanter added by this update is that light elds became viable. While that is a huge buff, I don't think it is more impactful than the classes/specs opened up on alb.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 10:10 PM by gruenesschaf
Ranfars wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:31 PM
It certainly wouldn't be as substantial as cabalists now having access to 40% spirit debuff for theurgists, necros, and (lol)clerics. It is an unintended but welcomed change is that an entire new spec nuke can now be max debuffed for at no spec cost, but the idea of decreasing the variance of a baseline nuke putting it in line with the other realms is not worth consideration. They rounded down for alb and rounded up for hib.

Please compare menta menta + eld + arb ani or another eld with the current heat train. By the way, you also received a now commonly debuffed spec nuke on the arb ani and that is also actually likely to be seen in groups, unlike the air theurgist.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 10:49 PM by boomber
can we give skalds/palas etcs combined resist buff to one spell as well? if it is easier to debuff it should be easier to buff the resists as well
Fri 8 Jan 2021 11:24 PM by Krishprolls
Do you plan on adjusting the debuff to what it was before ? Meaning having triple debuff with different values according to how much you spec in one line ?

Adding (restoring) , for example, a debuff with 40% debuff X, 24% debuff Y and Z ?

Or will you keep your changes as is, depleting small, not taking into account anything else than 8v8 and their "wanted" debuff ?
Fri 8 Jan 2021 11:49 PM by opossum12
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 9:29 PM
opossum12 wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:36 PM
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:29 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 4:03 PM
Bry wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 3:55 PM
the primary debuff for each realm was already imbalanced. Albs - body 46, mids - cold 48, hibs - heat 49. Make them the same level. I'm just asking for balance.

While making everything the same would produce balance, it's not required and in this case also not desired. While surely many of the chosen levels for skills are less than ideal and there is room for adjustments, specs have been made around them and people know what to expect from a given debuff class and for now the triple debuff is available at the "wanted" primary level.
The intent of the change is to allow more classes to jump on the existing debuff train, not to buff the debuffer themselves.

.
Hib caster 8man has been next to non-existant. Show some love. Its not going to break anything. Hibs already have to face red heat resists since friars and shamans can easily and viably spec in to red heat resist.

-Floorz
RR11L4 Enchanter

You want enchanters buffed, because at the light of the recent mentalist changes, hib caster did in fact get a buff by now going against blue/yellow resists.

The energy baseline to hib isn't a buff by any means. Elds lose utility by being forced to spec void, which they lose points in debuffs, nearsight, disease, and mez by having to spec low in light/mana to go 47 void for the debuff.
Mentailists have to spec low in light which means they cant have a decent pet. Mentalism is a near useless spec, so going high mentalism for the debuffs is practically worthless.

There is no spec dd for energy, so hib loses any spec dd options going for energy vs heat/cold.

As for the resists, it is the only benefit as albs and mids dont run red energy. The vast majority of 8mans will have yellow energy resist, so the idea that a hib train loses spec nukes and the vast majority of utility to go for an energy train to do the same damage is definately not a buff by any means.

This is not a buff to hib. It is a just a neutral or somewhat weaker change.

Idk, void Elds are trash but why do you consider mentalists trash?

47 mentalism 24 mana 11 light. Yeah you get a low pet, but generally its purpose is to demezz you, not actually.get out there and rupt.

You add a split spec mana/light eld and an ani and you get 2 NS, good stat debuffs, a high level str/con + a con debuff, great spike dps with the arb on top of his general utility with the tanglers, disease, etc.

I mean if you stick to running an enchanter on an energy train, you are looking to fail. Are enchanters completely useless since energy/body is viable? Yeah pretty much, until the enchanter gets a baseline root and the eld gets a spec root in mana.

I mean I'd be pissed too if my 11L4 character suddenly became the worst caster in the game.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 12:15 PM by Tyrlaan
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:43 PM
I would say a good reason for an enchanters resist debuff to be at a higher level would be that both enchanter caster pets share the same damage type as their resist debuff. That being a unique feature of the class does give a reason for a higher level resist debuff.

Not just the pets but the Elemental debuff now debuffs the Light Eld spec nuke as well and the Light Menta gained a grey NS long-range interrupt with 45/10/28. The heat debuff train is stronger than ever.

Just because there´s no reason to group Enchanters in a group built around the Void Eld or Menta Menta Spiritual debuff (which trades dps for different utility and less pets) doesn´t mean they need another buff on top of those already received with these changes by allowing them to spec Light higher for even more dps off the debuff.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 1:03 PM by Bry
Tyrlaan wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 12:15 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:43 PM
I would say a good reason for an enchanters resist debuff to be at a higher level would be that both enchanter caster pets share the same damage type as their resist debuff. That being a unique feature of the class does give a reason for a higher level resist debuff.

Not just the pets but the Elemental debuff now debuffs the Light Eld spec nuke as well and the Light Menta gained a grey NS long-range interrupt with 45/10/28. The heat debuff train is stronger than ever.

Just because there´s no reason to group Enchanters in a group built around the Void Eld or Menta Menta Spiritual debuff (which trades dps for different utility and less pets) doesn´t mean they need another buff on top of those already received with these changes by allowing them to spec Light higher for even more dps off the debuff.

I was asking for the debuff to be balanced across the classes and realms. The enchanter spec requires 49 mana and 22 light to get the same debuff that a cab can get at 46 spirit 25 body 13 matter. Cabs have much more utility and can have more points in body which allows for a lower variance and better power effeciency in the baseline nuke.

It seems reasonable to allow chanters and runemasters the same opportunity to have a better power effeciency and variance on their baseline nuke by putting the debuff at level 46 in Mana and Runecarving.
Considering all of the utility that Cabs already have, it would be imbalanced to allow the class to have a more efficient baseline dd along with all of that utilty.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 1:09 PM by Tyrlaan
Bry wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 1:03 PM
Tyrlaan wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 12:15 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:43 PM
I would say a good reason for an enchanters resist debuff to be at a higher level would be that both enchanter caster pets share the same damage type as their resist debuff. That being a unique feature of the class does give a reason for a higher level resist debuff.

Not just the pets but the Elemental debuff now debuffs the Light Eld spec nuke as well and the Light Menta gained a grey NS long-range interrupt with 45/10/28. The heat debuff train is stronger than ever.

Just because there´s no reason to group Enchanters in a group built around the Void Eld or Menta Menta Spiritual debuff (which trades dps for different utility and less pets) doesn´t mean they need another buff on top of those already received with these changes by allowing them to spec Light higher for even more dps off the debuff.

I was asking for the debuff to be balanced across the classes and realms. The enchanter spec requires 49 mana and 22 light to get the same debuff that a cab can get at 46 spirit 25 body 13 matter. Cabs have much more utility and can have more points in body which allows for a lower variance and better power effeciency in the baseline nuke.

It seems reasonable to allow chanters and runemasters the same opportunity to have a better power effeciency and variance on their baseline nuke by putting the debuff at level 46 in Mana and Runecarving.
Considering all of the utility that Cabs already have, it would be imbalanced to allow the class to have a more efficient baseline dd along with all of that utilty.

But as I pointed out, it isn´t balanced across realms already (due to the fact the other 2 Hib classes on the train can use spec nukes off it and the pet uses it too). What the Chanter is missing in utility compared to the Cab is on the Eld and Naturalists who run along with him. It isn´t reasonable at all, just a Chanter asking for more - supposedly in the name of balance but actually making it even more imbalanced.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 1:13 PM by Salidry
To Bry:
I agree with the variance and mana consumption argument for chanter and RM pre triple debuff patch. Maybe it is needed also after the triple debuff patch?
But the triple debuff is definitely a buff to hib caster. Is it enough ? That´s hard to tell honestly and maybe 1,2,3 weeks of playing are required to figure it out.

But standardization of debuff levels doesn´t constitute an argument by itself. You need to look at the bigger picture and not comparing classes 1 to 1. If you keep applying this argument for everything you end up with a mirrored game.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 2:35 PM by DJ2000
The 3-Debuff is a game changer for a lot of classes.

Yes, some profit more than others, but that's with every change. Nothing you can do about it. I personally think it's a good move to bring more classes into the mix.

Hibernia:
Heat/Cold:
- Light/Mana Mentalist additional (low) NS
- Light/Mana Eldritch can use spec nukes (cold) for better damage(+type)
- Mana/Light Enchanter mostly unchanged

Energy/Body:
- Arb/Creep Animist now viable with a ton of Damage and Utility (you will see a lot of this)
- Mentalism/Mana Ment brings in huge Utility, yet stable base nuke.
- Mana/Light Eldritch still fits in perfectly (ichor, AoE Disease, PbAoE, AoE Mezz, NS etc.)

(Void Eld is basically dead now.)

In fact: All 4 Classes could also be viable in the same Grp, thanks to the flexibly of Classes:
Druid, Bard, Warden, Hero(Champion), Mentalist, Animist, Eldritch, Enchanter.

Hibernia got a lot out of this one.

Midgard will get a another Debuff on the BD BA-Spec apparently / or a big twist would be on the Thane, but i highly doubt that. Will have to wait and see for the Midgard changes.

Albion may have a hard time to bring anything besides Cold into the Heat/Cold/Matter-mix, if anything than it would be Cold/Matter. The Cab "could" profit from this, while the Sorc will not. Which is kind of sad, as the Wizard (and Theu) don't have an Earth-Base-Nuke (Matter).
While on the other Hand, the regular Body-variant can get flexed with Spirit and thus is stronger than ever.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 3:04 PM by Tyrlaan
DJ2000 wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 2:35 PM
Energy/Body:
- Arb/Creep Animist now viable with a ton of Damage and Utility (you will see a lot of this)
- Mentalism/Mana Ment brings in huge Utility, yet stable base nuke.
- Mana/Light Eldritch still fits in perfectly (ichor, AoE Disease, PbAoE, AoE Mezz, NS etc.)

(Void Eld is basically dead now.)

TBH that´s one of the reasons I don´t like the addition of the self debuff to Mentalism. Every Mentalist already got 28 Mentalism anyway for demezz and the major heal. It was already a great subspec line (kinda like Body is on Cabalists). And both Light Mentas and Mana Mentas who would subspec Mentalism gained something already (either a grey NS or a red NS and a specced baseline nuke which will see debuffs). Mentalism doesn´t need the debuffs. And it will make Void Elds obsolete. It wouldn´t be that bad if the Energy/Body train would still require a Void/Mana Eld to debuff for them.

We don´t want 4+4 groups full of Mentalism/Mana and Mana/Mentalism Mentalists ST stunning, debuff nuking + debuffed double DoTs, with their great HoTs running on everybody and using major heals on each other, do we? With 4 NSes and 4 extra demezzes. I remember the full groups of healers stun and gunning leading to the Smite Cleric nerf (I am that old). Can even make it 3+5 with so much healing. Replacing one of the multi-Mentalists with a Mana/Light Eld (disease, debuffs, NS, debuffed snare nukes and PBAE as well as Ichor) or an Arb Animist (debuffed spec nukes, tanglers, Con debuff as well as Ichor) for some variation isn´t going to make it any less ridiculous.

DJ2000 wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 2:35 PM
Albion may have a hard time to bring anything besides Cold into the Heat/Cold/Matter-mix, if anything than it would be Cold/Matter. The Cab "could" profit from this, while the Sorc will not. Which is kind of sad, as the Wizard (and Theu) don't have an Earth-Base-Nuke (Matter).
While on the other Hand, the regular Body-variant can get flexed with Spirit and thus is stronger than ever.

Yeah the addition of Spirit will make it easier to include a couple classes though I don´t think an Air Theurgist offers as much as another LTer. Necros could work. The Earth Theurgist and Wizards are still SOL. And with the advent of even more caster groups in the other realms, Alb lacks red NS on a spec that´s to be included in 8mans.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 5:44 PM by Amarath
DJ2000 wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 2:35 PM
Albion may have a hard time to bring anything besides Cold into the Heat/Cold/Matter-mix, if anything than it would be Cold/Matter. The Cab "could" profit from this, while the Sorc will not. Which is kind of sad, as the Wizard (and Theu) don't have an Earth-Base-Nuke (Matter).
While on the other Hand, the regular Body-variant can get flexed with Spirit and thus is stronger than ever.

/Stares a a legion of Necros...
/Staring intensifies
/Max staring at Necros

I mean there are a lot of necros out there, its gotta help in general.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 6:15 PM by Tyrlaan
Necros have lower dps nukes though (casting speed) so their utility and durability would have to make up for it. Their AF debuff and abs buff is mostly useless to debuff assist caster groups, their power transfer and AE snare might help. Their pet melts versus caster groups and once killed, they can never recover (because they would never get the chance to resummon their pet) unlike every other caster who can get rezzed or even PRed, buff up and join the battle again.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 9:28 PM by Bradekes
Tyrlaan wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 6:15 PM
Necros have lower dps nukes though (casting speed) so their utility and durability would have to make up for it. Their AF debuff and abs buff is mostly useless to debuff assist caster groups, their power transfer and AE snare might help. Their pet melts versus caster groups and once killed, they can never recover (because they would never get the chance to resummon their pet) unlike every other caster who can get rezzed or even PRed, buff up and join the battle again.

Necro can cast two nukes at once. I'm not sure how this is lower dps?
Sat 9 Jan 2021 9:53 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Bradekes wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 9:28 PM
Necro can cast two nukes at once. I'm not sure how this is lower dps?

One of them is 500 units.
Sat 9 Jan 2021 10:12 PM by Bradekes
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 9:53 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 9:28 PM
Necro can cast two nukes at once. I'm not sure how this is lower dps?

One of them is 500 units.

So? Is it now untrue? Because one spell is 500units now my point is invalid? Necro can also quickcast 3-4spells does this info now invalidate your statement?
Sat 9 Jan 2021 10:30 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Bradekes wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 10:12 PM
So? Is it now untrue? Because one spell is 500units now my point is invalid? Necro can also quickcast 3-4spells does this info now invalidate your statement?

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or do you really need something as simple as range differences explained to you?
Sun 10 Jan 2021 1:03 AM by Bradekes
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 10:30 PM
Are you being intentionally obtuse, or do you really need something as simple as range differences explained to you?

I am starting to wonder if you're being intentionally obtuse... or do you really need something as simple as 3 or 4 quickcasted spells vs 1 quickcasted spell explained to you?
Sun 10 Jan 2021 1:19 AM by Razilly
How about you both stop accusing each other of being obtuse (or any other insults).

Keep the thread clean and on-point, please.
Sun 10 Jan 2021 4:49 AM by opossum12
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 1:03 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Sat 9 Jan 2021 10:30 PM
Are you being intentionally obtuse, or do you really need something as simple as range differences explained to you?

I am starting to wonder if you're being intentionally obtuse... or do you really need something as simple as 3 or 4 quickcasted spells vs 1 quickcasted spell explained to you?

So necro is best caster dps.in the game?
Sun 10 Jan 2021 5:32 AM by Bradekes
opossum12 wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 4:49 AM
So necro is best caster dps.in the game?

That's a weird conclusion to come to.. how did you manage that?
Sun 10 Jan 2021 6:25 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 5:32 AM
That's a weird conclusion to come to.. how did you manage that?

Because as soon as someone mentioned Necromancers having lower delving and slower casting spells, you decided them having a 500 range second castable nuke, and "3-4" quickcast spells (it's 3, by the way, it's been capped at 3 on this server since day one) was a legitimate argument against those lower delves and slower casts. He's stating the natural summation of your argument. Do you disagree with your own argument now?
Sun 10 Jan 2021 3:20 PM by Bradekes
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 6:25 AM
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 5:32 AM
That's a weird conclusion to come to.. how did you manage that?

Because as soon as someone mentioned Necromancers having lower delving and slower casting spells, you decided them having a 500 range second castable nuke, and "3-4" quickcast spells (it's 3, by the way, it's been capped at 3 on this server since day one) was a legitimate argument against those lower delves and slower casts. He's stating the natural summation of your argument. Do you disagree with your own argument now?

That's a strawman bro... I never said necromancers have the highest dps. They also don't have the lowest dps and in some circumstances they have very good dps. Necro pets have no caps from buffs so they can actually cast faster than any other class regards to base cast speed of a spell. Dex from buff on necro pet doesn't cap at 155.

Others here are saying so many negative things about Necromancers, making them sound like such an inferior class it's ridiculous. Saying things like their pet drops so fast vs casters and such, which I've never seen that to be the case unless the necro has a poor template or people not understanding that the players item stats, including resists, transfer to the pet.

If you want to be part of those people go ahead. I've fought plenty of necromancer and I also have a necro. They aren't gimp and about the only complaint I could see being relevant is that necro lack the standard ranged dd aoe almost all casters get. 1500unit 350radius.
Sun 10 Jan 2021 3:49 PM by Tyrlaan
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 3:20 PM
That's a strawman bro... I never said necromancers have the highest dps. They also don't have the lowest dps and in some circumstances they have very good dps. Necro pets have no caps from buffs so they can actually cast faster than any other class regards to base cast speed of a spell. Dex from buff on necro pet doesn't cap at 155.

At level 50 pretty much every spec buffer struggles to get cap buffs with high MoA. But somehow to you it´s relevant to point out that they could get it past cap - only to buff the necro pet a couple points higher (which will NOT make its cast speed higher than that of 2.5 or 2.6 spells). Mkay...

Anyway, back to topic? While the triple debuffs are gonna change the meta quite a bit (and in many cases to the better), Mentalists are ridiculous with the changes (ST double stun debuff nukes and DoTs, HoTs and heals, NS, mezz and demezz - what´s not to like?)

And the Paladin change is kinda meh. Because it´s a weird to introduce such a low RUT heal using up that much power (which will just be replenished with pots and items) while the heal chant could see an upgrade (like to a spreadheal which would also have a higher pool with more group members). Because it´s weird to have abilities scale quadratically with group size (not just a heal or damadd to everybody but the value too) - Paladins don´t get into smallmans very often either. And because most of the suggestions, Celerity or Stoicism or just more damage, would neither result in a group to run more than 1 Paladin nor put Paladins ahead of the other hybrids if anybody is concerned about the solo world.
Sun 10 Jan 2021 5:05 PM by opossum12
Tyrlaan wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 3:49 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 3:20 PM
That's a strawman bro... I never said necromancers have the highest dps. They also don't have the lowest dps and in some circumstances they have very good dps. Necro pets have no caps from buffs so they can actually cast faster than any other class regards to base cast speed of a spell. Dex from buff on necro pet doesn't cap at 155.

At level 50 pretty much every spec buffer struggles to get cap buffs with high MoA. But somehow to you it´s relevant to point out that they could get it past cap - only to buff the necro pet a couple points higher (which will NOT make its cast speed higher than that of 2.5 or 2.6 spells). Mkay...

Anyway, back to topic? While the triple debuffs are gonna change the meta quite a bit (and in many cases to the better), Mentalists are ridiculous with the changes (ST double stun debuff nukes and DoTs, HoTs and heals, NS, mezz and demezz - what´s not to like?)

And the Paladin change is kinda meh. Because it´s a weird to introduce such a low RUT heal using up that much power (which will just be replenished with pots and items) while the heal chant could see an upgrade (like to a spreadheal which would also have a higher pool with more group members). Because it´s weird to have abilities scale quadratically with group size (not just a heal or damadd to everybody but the value too) - Paladins don´t get into smallmans very often either. And because most of the suggestions, Celerity or Stoicism or just more damage, would neither result in a group to run more than 1 Paladin nor put Paladins ahead of the other hybrids if anybody is concerned about the solo world.

Changes to the mentalist were required for hib caster to be potentially be able to compete with Albs.

Hib strat is high dps/low control, but they didn't really have that option because they have zero cc, their high dps was too easy to shut down.

Now that the body/energy train works, hib can dish out massive dps with high utility casters. They still lack pets, but now they have the dps aspect back.
Sun 10 Jan 2021 5:24 PM by Bradekes
Tyrlaan wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 3:49 PM
At level 50 pretty much every spec buffer struggles to get cap buffs with high MoA. But somehow to you it´s relevant to point out that they could get it past cap - only to buff the necro pet a couple points higher (which will NOT make its cast speed higher than that of 2.5 or 2.6 spells). Mkay...
Again, I never said a necro will hit the same cast speed as a 2.5s or 2.6s spell did I? I said respective to another class casting a 3.0s spell the necro would have faster cast speed. Yes most of my points are circumstantial buti t doesn't make them less true anyways. Also it wouldn't make sense for a necro to be pulling the same dps at 1500unit as any other caster would it? I am stating still that they are still benefiting from this change just as much as any other caster as far as benefiting from the extra dmg from the resist debuff being compressed into one spell.

As far as the rest of your post I agree with it. It is about time hib had some extra tricks to combat all the pets alb has. Will it be enough? I dunno. I think Hib definitely is more balanced for the zerg combat now vs alb which is a huge plus. I won't be missing all those double aoe dots from wizzy+cabby I will tell you that was so broken.

As far as Paladin, I think they are just trying to find a use for their mana pool. I don't think these two spells are really that great, it would be much cooler for pala to also have some sort of solo purpose for their mana, like maybe a short duration dd proc or something that seems cool vs only group utility.
Sun 10 Jan 2021 7:09 PM by Tyrlaan
I don´t mind the damage or even stuff a Body/Energy train can do. Just the stun debuff nukes/DoTs on a class that can reset stun immunity, mezz, demezz, NS and HoTs/heals as well as get a lowlevel pet to cancel CC. That´s a lot more than even Cabs can do which I consider one of the highest utility casters. More CC than a Cab, higher NS, stun nukage, debuffed DoT to go with the debuffed DD, demezz and heals. It´s ridiculous already as a duo with a Bard and only gets more ridiculous once you start adding more Naturalists and Mentalists. But I guess it needs to be abused heavily for people to grasp.

Regarding the Paladin, I don´t understand their focus on giving odd abilities which are to make a difference only in a group of 8 (if at all since it requires a certain setup already) when the Paladin struggles in all kinds of RvR, solo, smallman and groups. Why can´t a change to their abilities help them in smallman or solo too?
Sun 10 Jan 2021 7:37 PM by Valaraukar
I love reading ppl arguing who between Hib and Alb got the best form these changes.... Do you even remember that there is a third realm? I know that on Phoenix Mid is at the very bottom of everyone thoughts, especially devs it seems, but it is so much hilarious to see you all arguing as it was a two factions issue and nothing more.
Thank you from all Midgard! 😂
Sun 10 Jan 2021 8:16 PM by Tyrlaan
Valaraukar wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 7:37 PM
I love reading ppl arguing who between Hib and Alb got the best form these changes.... Do you even remember that there is a third realm? I know that on Phoenix Mid is at the very bottom of everyone thoughts, especially devs it seems, but it is so much hilarious to see you all arguing as it was a two factions issue and nothing more.
Thank you from all Midgard! 😂

Uhh perhaps you should scroll back some? Both Dark and Supp SMs are very nice now and you´ll see plenty debuffs for Supp RMs and Thanes. You can build great groups with just these 3 classes for dps. BD is still lacking (and I know you´ll complain no matter what as long as your BD didn´t see improvements) but that doesn´t mean Mid got the shaft.
Sun 10 Jan 2021 9:50 PM by Sepplord
Midgard definitely is currently still Holding the shaft...i am intentionally not saying getting it, though.
The Midgard changes are still in the works and should be the next big announcement.

But yeah, since there are reportedly lots of midgardgroups in the GvG list, maybe we will get the shaft. I am hoping though to be wrong.


Timing would be great for BD buffs, as i have just decided to try something new after over a year on my rupptmachine 😁
Mon 11 Jan 2021 11:44 PM by mattymc
Sepplord wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 9:50 PM
Midgard definitely is currently still Holding the shaft...i am intentionally not saying getting it, though.
The Midgard changes are still in the works and should be the next big announcement.

But yeah, since there are reportedly lots of midgardgroups in the GvG list, maybe we will get the shaft. I am hoping though to be wrong.


Timing would be great for BD buffs, as i have just decided to try something new after over a year on my rupptmachine 😁

I think it is certainly fair to say that the order of changes is no way influenced by what's happening in game......
Tue 12 Jan 2021 12:28 AM by Chamie
Alright, dno where to make this post but I assume this is the place and I will try my best to avoid wall of text (that will fail).
I will talk about the changes from an 8vs8 perspective.
Your team is in the right in what has been underused and overused as I wrote in another post.

Quickly about me: I´m a freelance 8vs8 player who plays all realms all kinds of setups lots of different classes. This means I have played with most active 8vs8 groups out there on different realms and setups so I can see where some players seem stronger and where they seem weaker etc.

Tankers are too good, casters are too weak

Caster burst got nerfed by hp buff and WP nerf. The wild power nerf definitely didnt need to happen.
Resist debuff nerf made no sense, you can keep the tripple debuff and still let it be 50% on red debuff.
Body train on alb has been too strong yes, but I will get to that later in the post.
The terrain in new frontiers is also very punishing for casters, many times you are forced to take it to a boring water fight to avoid river shore LOS abuse.
EV terrain could work if people actually roamed by the plains but for whatever reason they dont and the area around the road is heaven for side swoop groups.

Hibernia

As stated, pretty much noone on EU time seems to want to play hibernia anymore, today the list had 5 alb grps, 5 mid grps and 1 hib grp. The hib group had some of the best players in the community but got completely rolled over by everyone partially because of the current state of hib caster.
Hibernia has been very strong with 4/4 tanker but it´s a pretty boring setup to play, many ppl at this point just straight up refuse to play it.
Caster and hybrid has just been absolutely awful 8vs8 GvG list setups for a long time.

Hib caster groups have a hard time fitting more than 3 casters, hero peels are way too weak compared to warrior/armsman snares and you only get 3 pets where one is green con pet. The burst is just a bit too weak.
Albion

So here we have the one caster group that was seemingly too strong, the alb body nuker group. The lifetap extra damage nerf was possibly a good thing here, resist debuff I´d say was negative since it also hurt other realms caster groups.
What was really the issue was lifetap MOC and the difficulties of CCing out the cab pets. Nerf the lifetap life gain during MOC by 35-50% and make the cab pets more CC able and u can give back the 50% resist debuff.
Keep in mind that nerfing what MoC does with lifetap is only a nerf to HIGH RR BODY GRPS which is the real problem. At rr 5 body nuke setup is not that OP at all.

Regarding tankers, yeah mercs needed the back snare perhaps but alb setups running Sorc, theurg + tanks was already one of the strongest setups in the game before buffs.

Midgard

Caster groups have indeed been too weak but here it is more complicated because the hybrid groups has been very powerful because of how well a backline savage works with BD+RM. Replacing the savage with an SM in the backline has been a terrible option. Spirit baseline nuke was a good start but this really doesnt solve that issue.

For those who didnt know, a backline savage gets the most total damage dealt in a mid hybrid on average, shortly followed by the BD.
Removing sav in backline for SM will decrease the damage of BD and RM because casters will be pressure more.

It´s awesome that hybrid is strong, thats the way it should be but if you wanna make caster setups more viable without making the mid hybrid too good as a side effect, the savage probably has to get some kind of nerf. The problem however is that the savage doesnt need to be nerfed in mid tanker, only in mid hybrid.
Tue 12 Jan 2021 8:16 AM by Sepplord
Could you explain what the synergy between BD+RM and savage is, that makes savage too strong?


Also hibs don't "only get three pets"...albion just gets far too many and too strong pets.

Three pets is more than midgard gets, unless you count every single BD pet despite them not attacking different targets and being killed by anyone sneezing in their general direction
Tue 12 Jan 2021 10:30 AM by Chamie
Yes you are correct , only alb caster groups gets that amount of pets. Both mid and hib caster groups struggle.

(Warning this post is a waste of time reading if you are not wondering about sav + caster synergy).

Regarding savage synergy with casters, this is a bit complex to explain and while there are some damage numbers out there from private arena servers with similar patch set, it is no exact science. Also note that its sav + caster dmg in general, not specifically with Rm and bd.

Savages chants (And quads) make them DPS maniacs but causes them to constantly need to be topped up. As a savage push a caster group he will almost always be at 50-75% health and a lot of DPS will be lost by chasing. To snare it needs to use an off spec weapon and it has no prevent flight. For these reasons a zerker is often (not always) prefered over the savage for hard push.

However in the back line the savage will be less exposed and easier to top up and can even go very hardcore on dmg RAs. Dealing constant damage to front liners reduces time spent chasing. As caster you want to be kiting and taking burst opportunities, the savage constantly creates opportunities where something is low and ocassionally 9 sec stunned while also having a burst damage similar to a caster.

A good enemy heavy tank will try to stick the savage to prevent this constant damage though.

So why then not just have 2-3 savages and skip casters? Easier to counter play is probably the answer (although getting tons of savages is surprisingly effective still).
Tue 12 Jan 2021 11:27 AM by Sepplord
thanks for the explanation, intresting stuff. Seems logically consistent to me (whatever that's worth though )
I understand now what you mean with the powerdifference regarding different setups(hybrid VS puremelee). Can't comment if that means OP in one area, or just better in that area (or too weak in the others), that's for others to decide
Tue 12 Jan 2021 11:29 AM by inoeth
attacking tanks with svg and dealing dmg in the same sentence makes me wonder if you have played daoc at all ;D
do you know what synergy means? snaring and stunning is not exactly a svg+caster synergy.
4 svges in grp is a setup that will easily get outplayed by any half decent kite grp tbh.

I agree in the fact that zerk is the better front orc though
Tue 12 Jan 2021 12:07 PM by DJ2000
Svg (1 or2) are not used to deal/counter Tank setups.
Its more for a heavy caster/pet setup (Alb atm).

Niche pick, not the new fotm.
Tue 12 Jan 2021 12:29 PM by Ele
DJ2000 wrote:
Tue 12 Jan 2021 12:07 PM
Svg (1 or2) are not used to deal/counter Tank setups.
Its more for a heavy caster/pet setup (Alb atm).

Niche pick, not the new fotm.
At least from what I experienced during EU pt, Chamie gave good insight in how succesful Mid Hybrid groups win their fights - vs. Melee groups, obviously.
Tue 12 Jan 2021 12:43 PM by DJ2000
My reply was to inoeth, not to chemie, who also said that setups with more than 1 or 2 Svg are not recomennded.
Tue 12 Jan 2021 1:59 PM by Ele
DJ2000 wrote: My reply was to inoeth, not to chemie, who also said that setups with more than 1 or 2 Svg are not recomennded.

Ah ok, then I misread that.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 12:22 AM by Bry
The alb buffs are a bit much. Mercs with a rear snare and friars with a group 25% endo reduction buff have made mercs incredibly popular. The point of mercs not having a rear snare was to balance out them having chain and dirty tricks. Well, now they get what the other realms get on a light tank, plus chain and dirty tricks. No need to run a pally when they get endo reduction on a friar.

WTB balance.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 12:34 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Bry wrote:
Wed 13 Jan 2021 12:22 AM
The alb buffs are a bit much. Mercs with a rear snare and friars with a group 25% endo reduction buff have made mercs incredibly popular. The point of mercs not having a rear snare was to balance out them having chain and dirty tricks. Well, now they get what the other realms get on a light tank, plus chain and dirty tricks. No need to run a pally when they get endo reduction on a friar.

WTB balance.

Evade 1 is why they have chain, not the lack of a rear snare.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 10:44 AM by MeatBicycle
In any case it wasn't a good idea to buff albion first. Strongest casters and really strong melees for the realm with the most players. Even if those are changes for 8v8, it can't be good for the server population. Right now i don't understand whats going on here with those changes. Midgard changes are urgently needed.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 10:59 AM by inoeth
MeatBicycle wrote:
Wed 13 Jan 2021 10:44 AM
In any case it wasn't a good idea to buff albion first. Strongest casters and really strong melees for the realm with the most players. Even if those are changes for 8v8, it can't be good for the server population. Right now i don't understand whats going on here with those changes. Midgard changes are urgently needed.

change all cold dd to body dmg and we will see mid pop raising ;D
Wed 13 Jan 2021 3:02 PM by ExcretusMaximus
MeatBicycle wrote:
Wed 13 Jan 2021 10:44 AM
Midgard changes are urgently needed.

In US PT Mids outnumber Hibs by 30 and Albs by 40 just about every night.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 3:30 PM by opossum12
Mids are next on the list, I know patience isn't something that people have nowadays, but man just calm down, they are coming.

Also the new spirit DDs was a great buff for mid, not sure why people don't realize that.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 4:56 PM by Tyrlaan
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Wed 13 Jan 2021 12:34 AM
Bry wrote:
Wed 13 Jan 2021 12:22 AM
The alb buffs are a bit much. Mercs with a rear snare and friars with a group 25% endo reduction buff have made mercs incredibly popular. The point of mercs not having a rear snare was to balance out them having chain and dirty tricks. Well, now they get what the other realms get on a light tank, plus chain and dirty tricks. No need to run a pally when they get endo reduction on a friar.

WTB balance.

Evade 1 is why they have chain, not the lack of a rear snare.

Dunno what this guy is talking about - it can´t be balance. Advanced Evade 3 and Reinforced has always been way better than Advanced Evade 1 and Chain. Lights tanks need resistance to being peeled more than they need melee absorb.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 5:37 PM by MeatBicycle
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Wed 13 Jan 2021 3:02 PM
MeatBicycle wrote:
Wed 13 Jan 2021 10:44 AM
Midgard changes are urgently needed.

In US PT Mids outnumber Hibs by 30 and Albs by 40 just about every night.

Its quite a nice time for keep retakes after hib/alb taking almost every keep day after day in mid fz in eu prime.

But yeah, US Mids have better numbers compared to alb/hib and whats the result? where are the relics? which realms dominate most of the time? With the 4h realm timer you could as well take keeps in mid on your alb/hib and then retake them on your mid toons..^^

People were crying about Intercept from SM Pet and BD until they got nerfed. Why we don't see a nerf on necros for example? Almost immortal versus melee, bd is a joke against necro. Its hilarious to take towers and keeps with 2 people regardless of the realm rank.

For zerg it sucks to have twf on a cloth caster. Its hard to push into towers and keeps to place a twf like alb/hib does. Even the range of archers is bullshit cause rangers/scouts can hit people on some towers while standing in ck. Hunters don't have that range.

And please don't talk about patience. Some decisions here are just questionable.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 9:51 PM by Lollie
Having 4 relics will have something to do with it as well
Wed 13 Jan 2021 10:33 PM by Uthred
Nando wrote:
Wed 13 Jan 2021 10:15 PM
and posts got deleted if they critizise anything.... passt ins bild, melde mich ab

gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 24 Dec 2020 9:10 AM
Since it's useless to deny and any actions contra to the narrative are ignored, from this point forward any claims of bias against or for a certain realm will see the post deleted and the person permanently muted in the forum, really cba anymore to care about that.
Wed 13 Jan 2021 11:17 PM by Parole
Please consider giving wiz back their aoe dot. perhaps change dmg type so it doesnt stack w/ cabby dot if that is the problem. You broke my PvE char.... no reason.
Thu 14 Jan 2021 6:40 PM by Pingyongyang
What really needs to happen is Phoenix would have to be big enough to split into 2 servers one for EU time one for US time!

Mids have a slight advantage after 11PM EST US time when all Euros haven't woken up and there are US PST still up. Other than that numbers are often even except for once or twice a week the Albs have crazy numbers for US primetime BGs over the course of the last 6 months.

EU on the other hand the BG for Alb and Hib are consistently 1.5-3x times bigger than Mid. Mid loses relics EU prime and has a chance rarely to take them back late US time and they get taken within 48 hours EU prime again.

Devs need to make Mid more attractive for BG. A big way to do this is have abilities for Mid melee to survive AE spell & RA dmg. Also as mentioned put TWF on a tank. Make a cheaper version of Avoidance of Magic / Empty Mind that only protects from AE magic spell and AE RA dmg for melee with a cost structure like Determination.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 9:08 AM by MeatBicycle
Pingyongyang wrote:
Thu 14 Jan 2021 6:40 PM
Devs need to make Mid more attractive for BG. A big way to do this is have abilities for Mid melee to survive AE spell & RA dmg. Also as mentioned put TWF on a tank. Make a cheaper version of Avoidance of Magic / Empty Mind that only protects from AE magic spell and AE RA dmg for melee with a cost structure like Determination.

In addition i think its quite difficult for midgard in zerg that the healer is the main cc class. The 'perfect' grp in zerg has 2 clerics ( or 1 cleric/ 1 friar ), 2 druids, 2 healers, but while in alb/hib the main task for them is healing you have only 1 healer for healing while the other one has to rupt (ofc the pac healer can heal as well, but as soon as he starts to heal you are missing rupt which requires more healing from the pac and so on. ).

Also, of course, Midgard lacks a bg leader with online times like Pilzpower and Polemo. But still, I think the Mids are not really interested in zerging because you're at a disadvantage balance-wise which results in an numerical disadvantage as well.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:57 AM by Tyrlaan
In a zerg you rupt with stacked AE damage not with your Pac Healer. Pac Healer is only required frontline for the initial AE mezz and perhaps an AE stun. The Pac Healer doesn´t have to rupt, he can stay back and heal just as well as Clerics and Druids.

Midgard´s problem for BGs is less and often reduced ranged AE damage. RMs and Thanes for AE DDs. Cave Shaman has no Aug buff bonus to AE DoT and every Cave Shaman is one less to give spec buffs to their realm.

BDs have so many issues: only AE DoT with a reduced delve as AE damage, in a spec which has low single target damage as well, their supposedly class-defining pet army inferior to single pets of other pet classes (grey pets easily CCed or killed due to pet level cap no matter how high of a pet you specced for, ranged pets useless when in order to attack the commander has to run and suicide on guards or the enemy). And for being such an underwhelming class, BDs have the realm´s AE damage RAs (TWF, NM) heaped onto them. It´s in general better to see RAs evenly distributed so every class can spec some useful active (like in Hib, so many Ichors, even on Elds for a 3rd form of CC) beside their passives than to have a couple classes with no useful active RAs (like RMs and Wizards) and others which would never get the points to spend on all their actives and passives. Mid has less (caster) classes and a hybrid (Savage) who didn´t get an active RA. It´s very noticeable that Mid has less AE damage/CC RAs.

With the debuff changes we´ll probably see more casters (especially SMs, RMs and Thanes) in Mid which means more (PB)AE to run in a BG to withstand what the other realms can bring but some of the issues still need to be adressed.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 12:37 PM by inoeth
in zerg fights nothing does really matter, 8v8 different story ... there the pac healer is in fact the main rupt and the aug is considered the main healer therefore its true that midgard has kind of a disadvantage here since shamans are really bad healers
Fri 15 Jan 2021 1:16 PM by Tyrlaan
8v8 logics don´t apply to zerg fights. In zerg fights you´ll need many more spread/group heals and in general your healers to stay in the back (except for initial AE CC to get an upper hand) out of enemy AE range because AE damage - coupled with snaring field RAs - is to put pressure on the enemy. It also helps if groups have the tools to switch between different scenarios in BG fights, single assist vs. mezzed targets, PBAE or ranged AoE. And of course Mid never had classes like the Animist or Necromancer which are so prone to being abused. Shamans need an upgrade (as do Clerics IMHO) after all the buffs to Friars/Wardens, Bards and Mentalists. The disbalance in heals between Hib and in the other realms is just gross.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 3:33 PM by Sagz
Tyrlaan wrote:
Fri 15 Jan 2021 1:16 PM
8v8 logics don´t apply to zerg fights. In zerg fights you´ll need many more spread/group heals and in general your healers to stay in the back (except for initial AE CC to get an upper hand) out of enemy AE range because AE damage - coupled with snaring field RAs - is to put pressure on the enemy. It also helps if groups have the tools to switch between different scenarios in BG fights, single assist vs. mezzed targets, PBAE or ranged AoE. And of course Mid never had classes like the Animist or Necromancer which are so prone to being abused. Shamans need an upgrade (as do Clerics IMHO) after all the buffs to Friars/Wardens, Bards and Mentalists. The disbalance in heals between Hib and in the other realms is just gross.

BRING BACK SHEARS!!!!! for people who sheared, it was soo much fun, just dont bring in the aoe shears, that was lame.

But on a serious note, you could probably do it and be logical about it. Example: make a higher spec (higher than 42 aug/nature/enhance) to get the spec buff shears, so unless you drastically change your spec it would be a sacrifice to have them. Another example, make range 1000? maybe 1250. But people here cry about every change.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 6:35 PM by Jingo NZ
Instead off shears a good spell would be an 8 sec dmg reduction buff on a friendly or an 8 sec dmg increase on an enemy.

Then the buffing spec classes can switch between focus target defense and offense.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 8:01 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Pingyongyang wrote:
Thu 14 Jan 2021 6:40 PM
Mids have a slight advantage after 11PM EST US time when all Euros haven't woken up and there are US PST still up. Other than that numbers are often even except for once or twice a week the Albs have crazy numbers for US primetime BGs over the course of the last 6 months.

Starting around 7PM eastern, not Pacific, Mids have had a massive population advantage for two weeks straight; /u is showing easily 30% more level 50 Mids in the frontier than the other two realms, with Albion at the lowest by a good margin. Is it Alb's fault that they're able to get their entire RvR population of 50 into a BG and the Hibs and Mids can't get more than 30 out of 90 and 140 (respectively) into a BG?

I'm hitting /u every night on the hour for five hours, this "post-11PM Eastern" narrative you're claiming just does not exist.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 10:57 PM by Pingyongyang
^ Mid is the least attractive by a significant amount for BGs, keep defense, keep take and that isn't debatable. It is no one's fault Mids don't BG it is the incentives that are off.

When even numbers you see Alb / Hib throw 5 TWFs/NMs out vs Mid maybe 1 or 2.

As said before the Pac Healer must AE Amnesia, find a good time to use his insta CCs, rush int to AE stun in a push etc while he is not healing. If he only heals Mid lacks too much range AE to have a Pac sit back too long. If Pac is busy healing now you are facing bolt range mezz from Albs and caster baseline stun from Hibs without an effective counter.

Shaman need more healing capabilities as said before. Maybe a strong group HoT that ticks fast (1 sec ticks) and makes a difference at a low mending spec.

TWF is needed on a melee class that can charge in and throw it down.

Being a Pac Healer (though extremely fun & challenging) in a BG is the most draining classes I have played in the game by multiples, it is no wonder Mid often has 1 healer or none often in BGs.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:19 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Mid's casters are some of the best in the game, so are its tanks, and its support is 100% the best without question. The reason people in Mid don't run BGs is because of idiots like you believing the bullshit that's been spouted for twenty years as an excuse for getting run over by superior numbers because "Mid is a tank realm!"
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:25 PM by Pingyongyang
Why are you so angry and combative in every post? I am sure I am not the first one that has asked. You're the person no one wants to talk to at the party.
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:53 PM by Tyrlaan
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:19 PM
Mid's casters are some of the best in the game, so are its tanks, and its support is 100% the best without question. The reason people in Mid don't run BGs is because of idiots like you believing the bullshit that's been spouted for twenty years as an excuse for getting run over by superior numbers because "Mid is a tank realm!"

Uhh so Hib support is 150% then because an PacH/AugH/Shaman/Skald core has so much less than a 2xBard/Druid/Warden core. The Skald is way less of a contribution to a caster group than its realm counterparts (unless you want to delegate him to peel duty - in a BG he´s running the catapult or ram). You´re also wrong about casters (pretty much every Mid caster has a better counterpart in Hib or Alb) and tanks (dual wielder with shield/slam > dual wielders without). The only saving grace to Mid tank groups is Celerity.
Sat 16 Jan 2021 8:24 AM by Simon73
Tyrlaan wrote:
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:53 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:19 PM
Mid's casters are some of the best in the game, so are its tanks, and its support is 100% the best without question. The reason people in Mid don't run BGs is because of idiots like you believing the bullshit that's been spouted for twenty years as an excuse for getting run over by superior numbers because "Mid is a tank realm!"

Uhh so Hib support is 150% then because an PacH/AugH/Shaman/Skald core has so much less than a 2xBard/Druid/Warden core. The Skald is way less of a contribution to a caster group than its realm counterparts (unless you want to delegate him to peel duty - in a BG he´s running the catapult or ram). You´re also wrong about casters (pretty much every Mid caster has a better counterpart in Hib or Alb) and tanks (dual wielder with shield/slam > dual wielders without). The only saving grace to Mid tank groups is Celerity.

I would gladly give away my shield on BM.
BM dmg compared to other light tanks is terrible, i would gladly have the dps of a zerk or svg.
Sat 16 Jan 2021 8:30 AM by MeatBicycle
Simon73 wrote:
Sat 16 Jan 2021 8:24 AM
Tyrlaan wrote:
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:53 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:19 PM
Mid's casters are some of the best in the game, so are its tanks, and its support is 100% the best without question. The reason people in Mid don't run BGs is because of idiots like you believing the bullshit that's been spouted for twenty years as an excuse for getting run over by superior numbers because "Mid is a tank realm!"

Uhh so Hib support is 150% then because an PacH/AugH/Shaman/Skald core has so much less than a 2xBard/Druid/Warden core. The Skald is way less of a contribution to a caster group than its realm counterparts (unless you want to delegate him to peel duty - in a BG he´s running the catapult or ram). You´re also wrong about casters (pretty much every Mid caster has a better counterpart in Hib or Alb) and tanks (dual wielder with shield/slam > dual wielders without). The only saving grace to Mid tank groups is Celerity.

I would gladly give away my shield on BM.
BM dmg compared to other light tanks is terrible, i would gladly have the dps of a zerk or svg.

with the hit rate of a svg versus shieldtanks / guard? have fun.
Sat 16 Jan 2021 8:36 AM by Simon73
MeatBicycle wrote:
Sat 16 Jan 2021 8:30 AM
Simon73 wrote:
Sat 16 Jan 2021 8:24 AM
Tyrlaan wrote:
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:53 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:19 PM
Mid's casters are some of the best in the game, so are its tanks, and its support is 100% the best without question. The reason people in Mid don't run BGs is because of idiots like you believing the bullshit that's been spouted for twenty years as an excuse for getting run over by superior numbers because "Mid is a tank realm!"

Uhh so Hib support is 150% then because an PacH/AugH/Shaman/Skald core has so much less than a 2xBard/Druid/Warden core. The Skald is way less of a contribution to a caster group than its realm counterparts (unless you want to delegate him to peel duty - in a BG he´s running the catapult or ram). You´re also wrong about casters (pretty much every Mid caster has a better counterpart in Hib or Alb) and tanks (dual wielder with shield/slam > dual wielders without). The only saving grace to Mid tank groups is Celerity.

I would gladly give away my shield on BM.
BM dmg compared to other light tanks is terrible, i would gladly have the dps of a zerk or svg.

with the hit rate of a svg versus shieldtanks / guard? have fun.

If your main target with a svg is a shielded tank you're doing it wrong
And, for info, I do have a svg, and my main targets are killed 3 to 4 times faster than when i use a BM (svg 5L - BM 7L).


And regarding your statement, do you think that with a BM life is easier with people that are guarded?
Sat 16 Jan 2021 9:43 AM by Sepplord
Yeah, okay....3-4times faster, 150%classes....
quoting half a page of text and replying one line...

can we come back to a real discussion?
Sat 16 Jan 2021 10:00 AM by Simon73
Sepplord wrote: Yeah, okay....3-4times faster, 150%classes....
quoting half a page of text and replying one line...

can we come back to a real discussion?

There is no real discussion here.
This thread is regarding albion changes (mostly). Let's wait what they will do for mids and hibs.
Sat 16 Jan 2021 2:29 PM by Tyrlaan
Simon73 wrote:
Sat 16 Jan 2021 10:00 AM
This thread is regarding albion changes (mostly). Let's wait what they will do for mids and hibs.

No it isn´t. It would take you just to scroll back to post #1 to know.
Sun 17 Jan 2021 5:46 PM by mattymc
Simon73 wrote:
Sat 16 Jan 2021 10:00 AM
Sepplord wrote: Yeah, okay....3-4times faster, 150%classes....
quoting half a page of text and replying one line...

can we come back to a real discussion?

There is no real discussion here.
This thread is regarding albion changes (mostly). Let's wait what they will do for mids and hibs.

It is for Albion changes -- I guess I mostly wonder why a realm that has been dominating for quite some time, alternating with Hibb as the pop flows back and forth apparently, is going first. While these are changes based on 8, the game balance has always been presented as being balanced that way both here and live, it has significant effect on the RvR ... and this IS supposed to be an RvR game. I am not alleging bias, just questioning choices. Perhaps the mids will sit around and wait to see...time will tell.
Sun 17 Jan 2021 6:22 PM by Tyrlaan
Again, this thread is not about Albion changes. In fact, the changes mentioned (triple debuffs, Menta NS and triple debuff, Pala weird stuff) change more for Hibs and Mids than they do for Albs.
Sun 17 Jan 2021 8:17 PM by mattymc
Tyrlaan wrote:
Sun 17 Jan 2021 6:22 PM
Again, this thread is not about Albion changes. In fact, the changes mentioned (triple debuffs, Menta NS and triple debuff, Pala weird stuff) change more for Hibs and Mids than they do for Albs.

LOL, not so much...but <shrug>
Sun 17 Jan 2021 9:01 PM by Sepplord
Definitely didnt only Impact Albion, i agree.
Midgard benefits a lot from the baseline nukes, bottom of the Barrel doesn't need much to be improved 😉

Menta imo is over the top now though...the Kit is absurdly overloaded now. Heavily disagree that they needed NS in top of the debuffs and everything else they can get in one specc (Not speccline, one specc aka what a lvl50mentalist has)
Seems like all hibgroups are running with 4-6healers now, not only the tanker. Just shifts Advantage towards Numbers again. Being able to get kills against a bigger force becomes more and more impossible
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:39 PM by opossum12
Sepplord wrote:
Sun 17 Jan 2021 9:01 PM
Definitely didnt only Impact Albion, i agree.
Midgard benefits a lot from the baseline nukes, bottom of the Barrel doesn't need much to be improved 😉

Menta imo is over the top now though...the Kit is absurdly overloaded now. Heavily disagree that they needed NS in top of the debuffs and everything else they can get in one specc (Not speccline, one specc aka what a lvl50mentalist has)
Seems like all hibgroups are running with 4-6healers now, not only the tanker. Just shifts Advantage towards Numbers again. Being able to get kills against a bigger force becomes more and more impossible

Mentalist is fine as it is, I prob would have given ment a spec line energy dd in mentalism and amnesia instead of the debuff (to mimic how mentalists arenon Live) bit meh.

If you watched the event, you would have noticed how hib caster group is complete and utter trash and shoukd just /sit when facing a remotely decent alb theurg tanker.

You would have seen a tank push in, get debuffed and take zero dmg, laugh, and then proceed to rip the casters apart while the support have 15 earthlords on them.
Tue 19 Jan 2021 2:02 PM by Sepplord
opossum12 wrote:
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:39 PM
You would have seen a tank push in, get debuffed and take zero dmg, laugh, and then proceed to rip the casters apart while the support have 15 earthlords on them.
intresting, how did the alb castersgroups counter that?
(no i didn't watch the event...i didn't even know it was watchable, but i am busy during the week anyways)
Tue 19 Jan 2021 3:35 PM by Tyrlaan
opossum12 wrote:
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:39 PM
If you watched the event, you would have noticed how hib caster group is complete and utter trash and shoukd just /sit when facing a remotely decent alb theurg tanker.

You would have seen a tank push in, get debuffed and take zero dmg, laugh, and then proceed to rip the casters apart while the support have 15 earthlords on them.

Well it´s kinda stupid to focus on the tank then (who probably has high levels of AoM exactly to survive debuff damage) and let the Theurgist spam pets? That would be basics.
You wouldn´t waste power bars on Warriors with Testudo, would you?
Tue 19 Jan 2021 9:52 PM by Chamie
So.. During first night of the 8vs8 arena event, the top 3 alb tanker groups lost no BO3s except vs other alb tankers.

One of these groups being my pug which I created from discord 8vs8 lfg chats and had a couple of players that I had never played with before / didnt know and ofc pretty low Realm rank. All caster groups got completely ran over.
Friar / Cleric / arms / merc / merc or reaver / minstrel / sorc / theurg.
Wed 20 Jan 2021 5:09 AM by opossum12
Tyrlaan wrote:
Tue 19 Jan 2021 3:35 PM
opossum12 wrote:
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:39 PM
If you watched the event, you would have noticed how hib caster group is complete and utter trash and shoukd just /sit when facing a remotely decent alb theurg tanker.

You would have seen a tank push in, get debuffed and take zero dmg, laugh, and then proceed to rip the casters apart while the support have 15 earthlords on them.

Well it´s kinda stupid to focus on the tank then (who probably has high levels of AoM exactly to survive debuff damage) and let the Theurgist spam pets? That would be basics.
You wouldn´t waste power bars on Warriors with Testudo, would you?

Not sure if you knew, theurg range is 2000, nuke range is 1500, if it's not the theurg pets or the minst it's the tank bashing your head in.

Alb theurg tanker is completely broken.
Wed 20 Jan 2021 7:38 AM by Sepplord
it makes sense somehow though...considering albchanges have already been done, hibchanges have started and midgard has basically not been specifically adressed
wierd to do balance testing under those circumstances, but also the results shouldn't be taken too seriously until all realms got their reworks

A low RR pug being among the top-groups is something to be closely monitored though
Fri 22 Jan 2021 8:31 AM by MeatBicycle
Alb Tanker buffs were such a great idea. Getting hits around 700 Dmg noncrit from Armsman after necro af debuff. Thats even more worse than alb caster groups before.
Fri 22 Jan 2021 9:59 AM by gotwqqd
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 22 Jan 2021 8:31 AM
Alb Tanker buffs were such a great idea. Getting hits around 700 Dmg noncrit from Armsman after necro af debuff. Thats even more worse than alb caster groups before.
Sure....compare an attack that requires you to be next to an enemy to one that from range can be cast at a 3:1 ratio or more
Fri 22 Jan 2021 10:40 AM by MeatBicycle
gotwqqd wrote:
Fri 22 Jan 2021 9:59 AM
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 22 Jan 2021 8:31 AM
Alb Tanker buffs were such a great idea. Getting hits around 700 Dmg noncrit from Armsman after necro af debuff. Thats even more worse than alb caster groups before.
Sure....compare an attack that requires you to be next to an enemy to one that from range can be cast at a 3:1 ratio or more

Cause its so hard to land a af debuff as necro and reach a hib/mid target as an armsman... Those alb tank grps just wreck anything they meet. Of course caster assist is hard and alb caster grps are really annoying but in my opinion the alb tankers are even worse.
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