Archer population to high.

Started 29 Oct 2020
by Tubby
in RvR
Im going from this at a different angle 1 archer vs anything is poor but the issue is population increase, with the buffs, came a massive wave of archers and they have stuck around. now i couldn't care less you get in melee or catch them they die fair play. what i have an issue with is scouts and rangers topping /serverinfo constantly. It was never like this before the silly buff and to be honest with the slight nerf the population has stayed because people have put time and realm rank into there characters. Reason for this post is just think its sad that archer classes are topping the charts. dont think ive ever played a server with this situation and it was built on a buff that really was out right lazy. give archers utility or hybrid them so they can have some combat. utimatley they are only over powerd in groups. sadly they are never solo.... why because they cant kill 1vs1 (alot anyway) i just find it confusing really that its a accepted change. but if no one else feels the same what ever lol i still enjoy killing them i mean its alot more rps for myself with them because sadly they dont learn the game they press 1 button or 2 if ya lucky lol.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:02 PM by Ajvar
I agree.
I respect the guys who run this server but beefing up archers was a mistake, it's getting ridiculous.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:35 PM by DinoTriz
Anyone who plays archer should be banned
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:36 PM by swap89
the minst pop is fine or too high them too?now,49 ranger,47 mins
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:11 PM by Kwall0311
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:36 PM
the minst pop is fine or too high them too?now,49 ranger,47 mins

Thats an idiotic arguement, as every alb group should/needs a minstrel for speed 6. OFC theres a ranger issue, they have access to much higher dex numbers and can out perform a scout easily. Speaking in terms of them not being buffed by druids or clerics.

Its a fact that rangers dont have to spend as many RA points in aug dex/aug qui as a scout does, so its naturally where people who want the best min max will go. You wont be able to beat the ranged DPS of a ranger with any other class. Scout can come close with cleric buffs, but still outmatched in terms of DPS.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:14 PM by DinoTriz
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:11 PM
Thats an idiotic arguement, as every alb group should/needs a minstrel for speed 6

Ah, so only classes that are needed in groups should be allowed to login?
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:14 PM by Kwall0311
DinoTriz wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:14 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:11 PM
Thats an idiotic arguement, as every alb group should/needs a minstrel for speed 6

Ah, so only classes that are needed in groups should be allowed to login?

No, I didnt say anything about that? Im just commenting that he is comparing the number of rangers to minstrels.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:15 PM by Bradekes
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:14 PM
DinoTriz wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:14 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:11 PM
Thats an idiotic arguement, as every alb group should/needs a minstrel for speed 6

Ah, so only classes that are needed in groups should be allowed to login?

No, I didnt say anything about that? Im just commenting that he is comparing the number of rangers to minstrels.

Hmmm.. but let's be honest, most minstrel run solo, unless you're saying there's 47grps of albs in rvr rn.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:17 PM by Kwall0311
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:15 PM
Hmmm.. but let's be honest, most minstrel run solo, unless you're saying there's 47grps of albs in rvr rn.

Between Solo, Duo/Small , zerg groups, and 8 mans. Yeah. Id say that number shouldnt be compared to the amount of rangers. Id be willing to bet the amount of solo minstrels are more than solo rangers. Because there are no solo rangers. But that also has nothing to do with the original post.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:19 PM by DinoTriz
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:14 PM
No, I didnt say anything about that? Im just commenting that he is comparing the number of rangers to minstrels.

It sure sounded like it.

Also Minst solo just as much as Archers do, so it's a valid comparison.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:21 PM by Kwall0311
DinoTriz wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:19 PM
Also Minst solo just as much as Archers do, so it's a valid comparison.

Whos complaining about groups of minstrels defending from 2500 range with 1k hits though? Who is this band of minstrels that are destroying people in single assitsts from unreachable ranges ? Id like to meet this group.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:22 PM by swap89
yes and in my eld grp i grp always a ranger for good dps and interrupt...so what's the problem?...u grp mins i grp ranger ok?.....seems now u all cry about ranger because people assist on you all...i wipe at the same time when on my eld flump or hoinz assist with savage zerk zerk...
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:27 PM by Kwall0311
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:22 PM
yes and in my eld grp i grp always a ranger for good dps and interrupt...so what's the problem?...u grp mins i grp ranger ok?.....seems now u all cry about ranger because people assist on you all...i wipe at the same time when on my eld flump or hoinz assist with savage zerk zerk...

True but they arent doing it from a ridiculous range? 2100 + hill elevation (2500). Why do you think the albs cant get close to Nged? Do you think its because of your 'leadership' Smap? Sorry but it would be nothing without the number of rangers the hibs are backed by. Just facts here
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:29 PM by swap89
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:27 PM
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:22 PM
yes and in my eld grp i grp always a ranger for good dps and interrupt...so what's the problem?...u grp mins i grp ranger ok?.....seems now u all cry about ranger because people assist on you all...i wipe at the same time when on my eld flump or hoinz assist with savage zerk zerk...

True but they arent doing it from a ridiculous range? 2100 + hill elevation (2500). Why do you think the albs cant get close to Nged? Do you think its because of your 'leadership' Smap? Sorry but it would be nothing without the number of rangers the hibs are backed by. Just facts here

ahahahahahahah...now u show the problem...u cant come in nged so NERF RANGER....
when u had relic u can do the same with scout...6 scout in assist...but u didnt do and u lost...and now we do this and they have to nerf us?....u are so fun
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:29 PM by Astaa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZnsHvEYEZI
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:32 PM by swap89
and for u information we send the ranger only for slow you...1 group of ranger cant stop 100+ albs...GTAOE assist,catapult etcect...
we cant slow u too??...if u want a red carpet outside nged or ailinne just ask...we do that...ridiculos
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:34 PM by Kwall0311
I think thats the point of the OP anyway. Scouts shouldnt have that kind of power in a keep either.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:35 PM by swap89
beacuase your scout like the 45 shield perma snare...so less damage on archery...let them do 50 archery the damae should be max 50-70 damage less....please stop that shit...u talking about NOTHING...
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:54 PM by swap89
yeah yeah...i'm an idiot...continue cry about ranger...i hope gm dont follow ur whining
ggood bye
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:55 PM by swap89
scout can do same damage in assist...do it and donjt broke the ball..good bye.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:12 PM by Freudinio
I don't understand people who can defend rangers at this point.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:15 PM by Kwall0311
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:55 PM
scout can do same damage in assist...do it and donjt broke the ball..good bye.

Again another idiotic statement from Smap. NOBODY SAID THEY CANT. THEY SAID THERE ARE TOO MANY
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:19 PM by Stoertebecker
Freudinio wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:12 PM
I don't understand people who can defend rangers at this point.

The topic is about archer population...atm it is 50rangers, 28 scouts, 28 hunters. Seems ok in Alb and Mid.

I have no probs with rangers on my hunter, they`re usually fooder with nothing in melee speced.
Keep fights are something different.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:19 PM by Stoertebecker
Freudinio wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:12 PM
I don't understand people who can defend rangers at this point.

The topic is about archer population...atm it is 50rangers, 28 scouts, 28 hunters. Seems ok in Alb and Mid.

I have no probs with rangers on my hunter, they`re usually fooder with nothing in melee speced.
Keep fights are something different.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:22 PM by Astaa
51 mincers, 50 rangers atm.

Also, check RPs earned, rangers aren't at the top.

It's a L2play issue, I'm afraid.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:26 PM by Astaa
The thread is about population.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:34 PM by swap89
Astaa wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:26 PM
The thread is about population.
no the problem is they cant come inside nged and they want nerf ranger...this is the very thread title
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:37 PM by swap89
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:15 PM
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:55 PM
scout can do same damage in assist...do it and donjt broke the ball..good bye.

Again another idiotic statement from Smap. NOBODY SAID THEY CANT. THEY SAID THERE ARE TOO MANY
if they are so many u cant proibite people play a class....so many mins too...i dont ask for nerf mins
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:38 PM by Kwall0311
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:37 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:15 PM
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:55 PM
scout can do same damage in assist...do it and donjt broke the ball..good bye.

Again another idiotic statement from Smap. NOBODY SAID THEY CANT. THEY SAID THERE ARE TOO MANY
if they are so many u cant proibite people play a class....so many mins too...i dont ask for nerf mins

Minstrels arent holding back entire zergs from 2500 range, with 500/1000k ,Abusing LOS/targetting. Etc. You are a GD moron man. It hurts.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:43 PM by Astaa
To be fair there was a hilarious moment last night where about 20 casters, sprinting away from their tanks, got mown down by about 10 rangers, was some pretty dopey play.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:43 PM by swap89
yea yea u are so hurt...i repait 1 ranger dont stop 100+...8 ranger too...they only can slow a zerg...they need more grp for stop the zerg...just 1 assist gt and they stop kill and need change position.....so stop talk about nothing...u no ridiculous
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:55 PM by Bradekes
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:19 PM
Freudinio wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:12 PM
I don't understand people who can defend rangers at this point.

The topic is about archer population...atm it is 50rangers, 28 scouts, 28 hunters. Seems ok in Alb and Mid.

I have no probs with rangers on my hunter, they`re usually fooder with nothing in melee speced.
Keep fights are something different.

The problem with comparing ranger population with other archers is the fact that ranger is hib best soloer. Mincer alb best soloer. Skald/hunter/sb pretty even for mid best soloer with skald a bit on top with speed 6/sos.

Hibernia doesn't have 3 solo classes like the other realm w/spd 6 & stealth.. bard can't fight anything solo, unless people stick around to get kited by a 10s shout and a side snare here and there.

Also, so I don't get this argument, you have to want to fight a champ or vw if you're playing solo class on alb & mid.. as their no spd 6 and no stealth leaves them to fight targets that intentionally fight them solo.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:15 PM by Tashkent
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:55 PM
The problem with comparing ranger population with other archers is the fact that ranger is hib best soloer. Mincer alb best soloer.

NS>Ranger as solo, not even close. Bow ranger can only add, melee ranger can only kill stealthers.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:18 PM by Bradekes
Tashkent wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:15 PM
NS>Ranger as solo, not even close. Bow ranger can only add, melee ranger can only kill stealthers.

What you're saying is that NS can kill 1 on 1 better.. I'm talking about soloing as in getting rps solo. Ranger is far safer class to play.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:20 PM by Forlornhope
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:55 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:19 PM
Freudinio wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:12 PM
I don't understand people who can defend rangers at this point.

The topic is about archer population...atm it is 50rangers, 28 scouts, 28 hunters. Seems ok in Alb and Mid.

I have no probs with rangers on my hunter, they`re usually fooder with nothing in melee speced.
Keep fights are something different.

The problem with comparing ranger population with other archers is the fact that ranger is hib best soloer. Mincer alb best soloer. Skald/hunter/sb pretty even for mid best soloer with skald a bit on top with speed 6/sos.

Hibernia doesn't have 3 solo classes like the other realm w/spd 6 & stealth.. bard can't fight anything solo, unless people stick around to get kited by a 10s shout and a side snare here and there.

Also, so I don't get this argument, you have to want to fight a champ or vw if you're playing solo class on alb & mid.. as their no spd 6 and no stealth leaves them to fight targets that intentionally fight them solo.

The only solo rangers that exist are the numerous ones who camp crauch and hit everything that moves from the bridge or from in range on the keep. That really doesn't count. Especially since there's never just one there, it adds up to pretty much the same thing as the roaming task ranger groups.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:23 PM by Bradekes
Forlornhope wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:20 PM
The only solo rangers that exist are the numerous ones who camp crauch and hit everything that moves from the bridge or from in range on the keep. That really doesn't count. Especially since there's never just one there, it adds up to pretty much the same thing as the roaming task ranger groups.

The real solution no one wants is to make hib spd6 class able to solo... no one wants real battle bards but that's what you need to lower ranger population. It's just a fact. This means rangers will continue to have high population for hibs even if all they do is play cheesy. Minstrel pretty cheesy 1v1 in most fights.

Only valid definition of solo ranger is without group and I'm understanding this as I give you examples of why ranger population is higher than other archers as those realms have better options for classes that do well without a group.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:30 PM by Forlornhope
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:23 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:20 PM
The only solo rangers that exist are the numerous ones who camp crauch and hit everything that moves from the bridge or from in range on the keep. That really doesn't count. Especially since there's never just one there, it adds up to pretty much the same thing as the roaming task ranger groups.

The real solution no one wants is to make hib spd6 class able to solo... no one wants real battle bards but that's what you need to lower ranger population. It's just a fact. This means rangers will continue to have high population for hibs even if all they do is play cheesy. Minstrel pretty cheesy 1v1 in most fights.

Only valid definition of solo ranger is without group and I'm understanding this as I give you examples of why ranger population is higher than other archers as those realms have better options for classes that do well without a group.

Yup, that's why people play rangers is because they can't play battle bards. Of course there are other cheesy classes in 1v1s, hib's got two of them. Again it's irrelevant since most of those people who are supposedly playing ranger because hib lacks a solo class with speed six really aren't soloing.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:40 PM by Tashkent
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:18 PM
Tashkent wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:15 PM
NS>Ranger as solo, not even close. Bow ranger can only add, melee ranger can only kill stealthers.

What you're saying is that NS can kill 1 on 1 better.. I'm talking about soloing as in getting rps solo. Ranger is far safer class to play.
I mean getting rps solo. More targets to kill, garotte/snare poison if something goes south. Vanish if you're really in trouble and you don't want to travel again.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:45 PM by Bradekes
Tashkent wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:40 PM
I mean getting rps solo. More targets to kill, garotte/snare poison if something goes south. Vanish if you're really in trouble and you don't want to travel again.

Then you're also playing a class that costs 5x the amount to template and doesn't fit in to BG rvr. Also much higher RR needed to solo well. Ranger way better option.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:48 PM by Bradekes
Forlornhope wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:30 PM
Yup, that's why people play rangers is because they can't play battle bards. Of course there are other cheesy classes in 1v1s, hib's got two of them. Again it's irrelevant since most of those people who are supposedly playing ranger because hib lacks a solo class with speed six really aren't soloing.

You can't blame the player for the class options available to hib.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:01 PM by Tashkent
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:45 PM
Tashkent wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:40 PM
I mean getting rps solo. More targets to kill, garotte/snare poison if something goes south. Vanish if you're really in trouble and you don't want to travel again.

Then you're also playing a class that costs 5x the amount to template and doesn't fit in to BG rvr. Also much higher RR needed to solo well. Ranger way better option.
Assassins being more expensive to equip is not a valid argument against their performance when equipped. Low rr ranger doesn't kill anything by himself, low rr ns does.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:28 PM by Tubby
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:36 PM
the minst pop is fine or too high them too?now,49 ranger,47 mins

minstrel are needed in every 8man group and are good solo its expected for them to be up on population?
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:30 PM by Tubby
DinoTriz wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:14 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:11 PM
Thats an idiotic arguement, as every alb group should/needs a minstrel for speed 6

Ah, so only classes that are needed in groups should be allowed to login?

its not talking about being able to log in. the population is to high because of the buff..
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:36 PM by Tubby
DinoTriz wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:19 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:14 PM
No, I didnt say anything about that? Im just commenting that he is comparing the number of rangers to minstrels.

It sure sounded like it.

Also Minst solo just as much as Archers do, so it's a valid comparison.

that is complete rubbish i have never ever seen a solo ranger. lol maybe one once upon a time.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:42 PM by Tubby
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:55 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:19 PM
Freudinio wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:12 PM
I don't understand people who can defend rangers at this point.

The topic is about archer population...atm it is 50rangers, 28 scouts, 28 hunters. Seems ok in Alb and Mid.

I have no probs with rangers on my hunter, they`re usually fooder with nothing in melee speced.
Keep fights are something different.

The problem with comparing ranger population with other archers is the fact that ranger is hib best soloer. Mincer alb best soloer. Skald/hunter/sb pretty even for mid best soloer with skald a bit on top with speed 6/sos.

Hibernia doesn't have 3 solo classes like the other realm w/spd 6 & stealth.. bard can't fight anything solo, unless people stick around to get kited by a 10s shout and a side snare here and there.

Also, so I don't get this argument, you have to want to fight a champ or vw if you're playing solo class on alb & mid.. as their no spd 6 and no stealth leaves them to fight targets that intentionally fight them solo.

ROFL vw? champ? this is crazy you have many solo classes get over yourselfy
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:47 PM by Tubby
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:23 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:20 PM
The only solo rangers that exist are the numerous ones who camp crauch and hit everything that moves from the bridge or from in range on the keep. That really doesn't count. Especially since there's never just one there, it adds up to pretty much the same thing as the roaming task ranger groups.

The real solution no one wants is to make hib spd6 class able to solo... no one wants real battle bards but that's what you need to lower ranger population. It's just a fact. This means rangers will continue to have high population for hibs even if all they do is play cheesy. Minstrel pretty cheesy 1v1 in most fights.

Only valid definition of solo ranger is without group and I'm understanding this as I give you examples of why ranger population is higher than other archers as those realms have better options for classes that do well without a group.

why was the ranger population low before the ridiculous buff can you explain this please?
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:51 PM by swap89
Tubby wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:47 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:23 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:20 PM
The only solo rangers that exist are the numerous ones who camp crauch and hit everything that moves from the bridge or from in range on the keep. That really doesn't count. Especially since there's never just one there, it adds up to pretty much the same thing as the roaming task ranger groups.

The real solution no one wants is to make hib spd6 class able to solo... no one wants real battle bards but that's what you need to lower ranger population. It's just a fact. This means rangers will continue to have high population for hibs even if all they do is play cheesy. Minstrel pretty cheesy 1v1 in most fights.

Only valid definition of solo ranger is without group and I'm understanding this as I give you examples of why ranger population is higher than other archers as those realms have better options for classes that do well without a group.

why was the ranger population low before the ridiculous buff can you explain this please?
because ranger have ridiculous damage on melee...and without buff and archery damager u can play a frog...same utility and fun
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:04 PM by Bradekes
Tubby wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:42 PM
ROFL vw? champ? this is crazy you have many solo classes get over yourselfy

VW and champ aren't real solo char.. a real solo character could choose easily to avoid them for easier targets. They are just sitting ducks for groups to hunt.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:08 PM by Bradekes
Tubby wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:47 PM
why was the ranger population low before the ridiculous buff can you explain this please?

Prove it was ever low..
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:23 PM by Festers
The problem is the class caters towards those that would choose to sit within guard range at DC, throw up a few buffs, press a couple of buttons if something comes within 2k range, wipe the drool off their keyboard and repeat.

The damage a ranger could do prior to the archery buff was good and if played well could be successful. Sadly most have got used to sitting at max range doing 800+ damage from stealth.
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:27 PM by Tubby
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:08 PM
Tubby wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:47 PM
why was the ranger population low before the ridiculous buff can you explain this please?

Prove it was ever low..

ive played since the begining i know it was lol? or lower than top serverinfo most days. use your brain mate
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:32 PM by Tubby
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:04 PM
Tubby wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:42 PM
ROFL vw? champ? this is crazy you have many solo classes get over yourselfy

VW and champ aren't real solo char.. a real solo character could choose easily to avoid them for easier targets. They are just sitting ducks for groups to hunt.

when on earth. was their a rule about solo characters having to avoid anything? ive got videos of me playing many classes with thousands of views for solo characters. you talk utter rubbish. you go out alone your solo. end of?
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:56 PM by Gildar
LOL i missing this funny thread ...

So many amusing statements about rangers...

Rangers are:
1 OP ... LOL, try play and taste how they are OP
2 play together and assist ... LOL, they dont know the rule that state rangers cant assist ... but where i can read that rule ?
3 rangers exploit jumping and fire, window firing ecc. ... oh sorry, only necro can exploit bugs like pet in wall or driving a ram with pet in safe so shade is immortal ... alb casters and scout dont jump when cast /fire ? LOL i see a million of them jumping ...and minstrels charming red barguest ? All fine ? Oh yes they are alb classes so all is ok
4 Scouts dont do same dmg as rangers ? LOL i've seen screens by Gilboom 8L eld full buffed and with shields up being hit repeatedly for 1075 dmg in 1 show by kikiscout, stonemars and lygma ... but scout dont do damages

Amusing guys that albs writing here ... this is NOT a post about rangers population, but a post asking ranger nerf, so i can talk about necros, minstrels, scout perma snare and also earth wizzy line OP, or cabby dots stacking and ask to nerf them too

Anyway, seeing albs whining (kwall first) because they cant open Nged ... priceless
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:18 AM by Razilly
Just a reminder not to insult others and to remain on-topic in this thread.
Thank you.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:24 AM by easytoremember
swap89 wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:34 PM
Astaa wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:26 PM
The thread is about population.
no the problem is they cant come inside nged and they want nerf ranger...this is the very thread title
I was blind but now I see
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:38 AM by Tubby
Razilly wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:18 AM
Just a reminder not to insult others and to remain on-topic in this thread.
Thank you.


thank you people have gone completely the other way with this. i was just suggesting daoc has never been this archer heavy and the population is high due to obvious reasons thanks for trying to get them back on topic
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:50 AM by Bradekes
Tubby wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:32 PM
when on earth. was their a rule about solo characters having to avoid anything? ive got videos of me playing many classes with thousands of views for solo characters. you talk utter rubbish. you go out alone your solo. end of?

So why don't I see anything but minstrel/skald/stealthers soloing 90% of the time?? Whatever make believe world you're saying exists is far from reality.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:53 AM by IdiamVonGawaine
Tubby wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 3:30 PM
Im going from this at a different angle 1 archer vs anything is poor but the issue is population increase, with the buffs, came a massive wave of archers and they have stuck around. now i couldn't care less you get in melee or catch them they die fair play. what i have an issue with is scouts and rangers topping /serverinfo constantly. It was never like this before the silly buff and to be honest with the slight nerf the population has stayed because people have put time and realm rank into there characters. Reason for this post is just think its sad that archer classes are topping the charts. dont think ive ever played a server with this situation and it was built on a buff that really was out right lazy. give archers utility or hybrid them so they can have some combat. utimatley they are only over powerd in groups. sadly they are never solo.... why because they cant kill 1vs1 (alot anyway) i just find it confusing really that its a accepted change. but if no one else feels the same what ever lol i still enjoy killing them i mean its alot more rps for myself with them because sadly they dont learn the game they press 1 button or 2 if ya lucky lol.

Oh, so it's fine if a caster, or a tank, "tops the charts", but not an archer? You have no problem when I assist on my hero or chanter or mentalist, but I can't do the same as a ranger?

Your opinion is not reasonable, blatantly biased, and will therefore be tossed in the trash for being the hot garbage that it is...
Fri 30 Oct 2020 3:42 AM by Tubby
IdiamVonGawaine wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:53 AM
Tubby wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 3:30 PM
Im going from this at a different angle 1 archer vs anything is poor but the issue is population increase, with the buffs, came a massive wave of archers and they have stuck around. now i couldn't care less you get in melee or catch them they die fair play. what i have an issue with is scouts and rangers topping /serverinfo constantly. It was never like this before the silly buff and to be honest with the slight nerf the population has stayed because people have put time and realm rank into there characters. Reason for this post is just think its sad that archer classes are topping the charts. dont think ive ever played a server with this situation and it was built on a buff that really was out right lazy. give archers utility or hybrid them so they can have some combat. utimatley they are only over powerd in groups. sadly they are never solo.... why because they cant kill 1vs1 (alot anyway) i just find it confusing really that its a accepted change. but if no one else feels the same what ever lol i still enjoy killing them i mean its alot more rps for myself with them because sadly they dont learn the game they press 1 button or 2 if ya lucky lol.

Oh, so it's fine if a caster, or a tank, "tops the charts", but not an archer? You have no problem when I assist on my hero or chanter or mentalist, but I can't do the same as a ranger?

Your opinion is not reasonable, blatantly biased, and will therefore be tossed in the trash for being the hot garbage that it is...

I'm so confused. Ill put it a bit easier for you, daoc is about rvr we all love it, but when you have half the hibs playing a class you can't see makes the game very empty and bland. I don't mind dying from rangers ever I say rangers because there is never just one lol. It is what it is just miss seeing people lol I don't think anyone can justify there damage truly either I made one to try out and it was the most boring tedius class I've played lol.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 6:51 AM by Forlornhope
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:48 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:30 PM
Yup, that's why people play rangers is because they can't play battle bards. Of course there are other cheesy classes in 1v1s, hib's got two of them. Again it's irrelevant since most of those people who are supposedly playing ranger because hib lacks a solo class with speed six really aren't soloing.

You can't blame the player for the class options available to hib.

Man, none of them would actually choose to play a solo battle bard, that's just a ridiculous comparison. Especially because none of these rangers, who are supposedly playing the class because they lack a solo option with speed six, are even soloing on a class that CAN solo.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:20 AM by MeatBicycle
Instead of admitting that the archery dmg is too high overall (with the Ranger population being by far the strongest), most Hibs behave like little children. Just don't admit that something is too strong from which you benefit yourself. And I thought the daoc community was grown up?

The necro bugs should be changed and fixed in the same way as other bugs/exploits, but also the bowdmg for all 3 realms (whereby the hunter needs a smaller nerf because he has no 5.5 bows) is way too high. Not wanting to admit it and instead ridiculing it does not help the server and the server population.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:20 AM by Astaa
I work 12 hours a day remotely so I actually spend very little of the day actively playing DAOC. Sticking my ranger at a keep that I think is going to be attacked and going semi afk is my play-style for the time being, unfortunately.

I tried solo visible but the community here just doesn't allow for it, I know visi solo is hard, always has been, I did it for over a decade on live, that's how I prefer to play DAOC, always has been but if you get 1 clean 1v1 a day on this server then you are very lucky. It is worse here than old live for solo. I also hang at crau sometimes, I don't add on people that I don't know (except mincers or high-rr assassins hunting expers/RR1s) and I don't add on people that didn't add on me before. As far as I am concerned, if you're a known adder or if you are looking for solo fights outside Crau or relic gates then you aren't looking for competition, just free-RPs, no reason for me to not take my share too I don't join the ranger groups, or follow them and I don't assist, I look for obvious weak spots in the zerg, the people standing at the back not moving, the over extending casters, people sitting etc. Quality kills over rapid firing into the zerg.

There is a certain high RR inf (not naming names) that either hangs about at crau hunting level 45s doing token hand ins or groups up with 2+ stealthers to camp docs, frankly they get crit shotted on site, whether they are fighting someone or not. People can pretend to be a competitive soloer all they like but you see a lot when semi-afk in stealth

There are also various balance issues for soloing on this server, mincers are way over tuned for a server without proper buffs (solo) I have never had a problem just killing the pet but then the mincer just sosses away, which wastes their time and mine. The devs just aren't interested in fixing mincers and with such a high population of them. coupled with speed, they are everywhere you go and all play like trash.

The Albion BG could and should adapt to a ranger defence, one that is easily countered by the many tools the Albion BG has, predominantly GTAOE, 2 NS classes etc etc. Why every siege starts off with a load of Alb casters sprinting out of range of their tanks and support to get nailed by rangers is beyond me, do you expect a different result or something?

TLDR: The Albion BG has numerous tools at their disposal, in popular spec lines to completely nullify rangers in sieges, they wilfully chose not to use them and play really badly in general, so the answer is nerf rangers (again?!) Lack of strong leadership from the Albion BG leader, that has given up trying to counter it and moved on to zerging empty keeps in mid instead, is your problem, you certainly bring the right classes.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:27 AM by Forlornhope
Astaa wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:20 AM
I work 12 hours a day remotely so I actually spend very little of the day actively playing DAOC. Sticking my ranger at a keep that I think is going to be attacked and going semi afk is my play-style for the time being, unfortunately.

I tried solo visible but the community here just doesn't allow for it, I know visi solo is hard, always has been, I did it for over a decade on live, that's how I prefer to play DAOC, always has been but if you get 1 clean 1v1 a day on this server then you are very lucky. It is worse here than old live for solo. I also hang at crau sometimes, I don't add on people that I don't know (except mincers or high-rr assassins hunting expers/RR1s) and I don't add on people that didn't add on me before. As far as I am concerned, if you're a known adder or if you are looking for solo fights outside Crau or relic gates then you aren't looking for competition, just free-RPs, no reason for me to not take my share too I don't join the ranger groups, or follow them and I don't assist, I look for obvious weak spots in the zerg, the people standing at the back not moving, the over extending casters, people sitting etc. Quality kills over rapid firing into the zerg.

There is a certain high RR inf (not naming names) that either hangs about at crau hunting level 45s doing token hand ins or groups up with 2+ stealthers to camp docs, frankly they get crit shotting on site, whether they are fighting someone or not. People can pretend to be solo all they like but you see a lot when semi-afk in stealth

There are also various balance issues for soloing on this server, mincers are way over tuned for a server without proper buffs (solo) I have never had a problem just killing the pet but then the mincer just sosses away, which wastes their time and mine. The devs just aren't interested in fixing mincers and with such a high population of them. coupled with speed, they are everywhere you go and all play like trash.

The Albion BG could and should adapt to a ranger defence, one that is easily countered by the many tools the Albion BG has, predominantly GTAOE, 2 NS classes etc etc. Why every siege starts off with a load of Alb casters sprinting out of range of their tanks and support to get nailed by rangers is beyond me, do you expect a different result or something?

TLDR: The Albion BG has numerous tools at their disposal, in popular spec lines to completely nullify rangers in sieges, they wilfully chose not to use them and play really badly in general, so the answer is nerf rangers (again?!) Lack of strong leadership from the Albion BG leader, that has given up trying to counter it and moved on to zerging empty keeps in mid instead, is your problem, you certainly bring the right classes.

I don't think rangers are really a problem in singeing keeps, the volley nerf took care of archers in that situation pretty effectively. It's the roaming archer/stealth groups that are the issue. As a mostly small man player there's really no defense to having most of our fights added on by the people who play like this. Sure, we can sos out but odds are pretty good one of us instantly dies and if they're smart, it's our bard/mins that is the target. Let alone when I am soloing on my hunter, it's pretty much a joke lol.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:39 AM by gotwqqd
Astaa wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:20 AM
I work 12 hours a day remotely so I actually spend very little of the day actively playing DAOC. Sticking my ranger at a keep that I think is going to be attacked and going semi afk is my play-style for the time being, unfortunately.

I tried solo visible but the community here just doesn't allow for it, I know visi solo is hard, always has been, I did it for over a decade on live, that's how I prefer to play DAOC, always has been but if you get 1 clean 1v1 a day on this server then you are very lucky. It is worse here than old live for solo. I also hang at crau sometimes, I don't add on people that I don't know (except mincers or high-rr assassins hunting expers/RR1s) and I don't add on people that didn't add on me before. As far as I am concerned, if you're a known adder or if you are looking for solo fights outside Crau or relic gates then you aren't looking for competition, just free-RPs, no reason for me to not take my share too I don't join the ranger groups, or follow them and I don't assist, I look for obvious weak spots in the zerg, the people standing at the back not moving, the over extending casters, people sitting etc. Quality kills over rapid firing into the zerg.

There is a certain high RR inf (not naming names) that either hangs about at crau hunting level 45s doing token hand ins or groups up with 2+ stealthers to camp docs, frankly they get crit shotted on site, whether they are fighting someone or not. People can pretend to be a competitive soloer all they like but you see a lot when semi-afk in stealth

There are also various balance issues for soloing on this server, mincers are way over tuned for a server without proper buffs (solo) I have never had a problem just killing the pet but then the mincer just sosses away, which wastes their time and mine. The devs just aren't interested in fixing mincers and with such a high population of them. coupled with speed, they are everywhere you go and all play like trash.

The Albion BG could and should adapt to a ranger defence, one that is easily countered by the many tools the Albion BG has, predominantly GTAOE, 2 NS classes etc etc. Why every siege starts off with a load of Alb casters sprinting out of range of their tanks and support to get nailed by rangers is beyond me, do you expect a different result or something?

TLDR: The Albion BG has numerous tools at their disposal, in popular spec lines to completely nullify rangers in sieges, they wilfully chose not to use them and play really badly in general, so the answer is nerf rangers (again?!) Lack of strong leadership from the Albion BG leader, that has given up trying to counter it and moved on to zerging empty keeps in mid instead, is your problem, you certainly bring the right classes.
Oh you mean therabbin
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:03 AM by Tyrlaan
Held shots are okay but fixing the jump abuse would go a long way in fixing archer damage around structures. I´m no master archer but I doubt anybody would hit much (at very long range no less) while jumping. Same goes for casting btw. where people jump to have the start and end of casting in LoS while being out of LoS otherwise.

TL;DR Make jump interrupt shots and spells.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:34 AM by Dr4ag
gotwqqd wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:39 AM
Astaa wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:20 AM
I work 12 hours a day remotely so I actually spend very little of the day actively playing DAOC. Sticking my ranger at a keep that I think is going to be attacked and going semi afk is my play-style for the time being, unfortunately.

I tried solo visible but the community here just doesn't allow for it, I know visi solo is hard, always has been, I did it for over a decade on live, that's how I prefer to play DAOC, always has been but if you get 1 clean 1v1 a day on this server then you are very lucky. It is worse here than old live for solo. I also hang at crau sometimes, I don't add on people that I don't know (except mincers or high-rr assassins hunting expers/RR1s) and I don't add on people that didn't add on me before. As far as I am concerned, if you're a known adder or if you are looking for solo fights outside Crau or relic gates then you aren't looking for competition, just free-RPs, no reason for me to not take my share too I don't join the ranger groups, or follow them and I don't assist, I look for obvious weak spots in the zerg, the people standing at the back not moving, the over extending casters, people sitting etc. Quality kills over rapid firing into the zerg.

There is a certain high RR inf (not naming names) that either hangs about at crau hunting level 45s doing token hand ins or groups up with 2+ stealthers to camp docs, frankly they get crit shotted on site, whether they are fighting someone or not. People can pretend to be a competitive soloer all they like but you see a lot when semi-afk in stealth

There are also various balance issues for soloing on this server, mincers are way over tuned for a server without proper buffs (solo) I have never had a problem just killing the pet but then the mincer just sosses away, which wastes their time and mine. The devs just aren't interested in fixing mincers and with such a high population of them. coupled with speed, they are everywhere you go and all play like trash.

The Albion BG could and should adapt to a ranger defence, one that is easily countered by the many tools the Albion BG has, predominantly GTAOE, 2 NS classes etc etc. Why every siege starts off with a load of Alb casters sprinting out of range of their tanks and support to get nailed by rangers is beyond me, do you expect a different result or something?

TLDR: The Albion BG has numerous tools at their disposal, in popular spec lines to completely nullify rangers in sieges, they wilfully chose not to use them and play really badly in general, so the answer is nerf rangers (again?!) Lack of strong leadership from the Albion BG leader, that has given up trying to counter it and moved on to zerging empty keeps in mid instead, is your problem, you certainly bring the right classes.
Oh you mean therabbin

Wha'ts up with me ?
Fri 30 Oct 2020 10:00 AM by Astaa
Tyrlaan wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:03 AM
Held shots are okay but fixing the jump abuse would go a long way in fixing archer damage around structures. I´m no master archer but I doubt anybody would hit much (at very long range no less) while jumping. Same goes for casting btw. where people jump to have the start and end of casting in LoS while being out of LoS otherwise.

TL;DR Make jump interrupt shots and spells.

I tend to agree with this actually, though I am not sure if there is much the devs can do about it.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 11:29 AM by gotwqqd
Tyrlaan wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:03 AM
Held shots are okay but fixing the jump abuse would go a long way in fixing archer damage around structures. I´m no master archer but I doubt anybody would hit much (at very long range no less) while jumping. Same goes for casting btw. where people jump to have the start and end of casting in LoS while being out of LoS otherwise.

TL;DR Make jump interrupt shots and spells.
Now we are going to see posts of YouTube video of the fantastic archery of the danish guy....all horseshit
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:04 PM by Bradekes
gotwqqd wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 11:29 AM
Tyrlaan wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:03 AM
Held shots are okay but fixing the jump abuse would go a long way in fixing archer damage around structures. I´m no master archer but I doubt anybody would hit much (at very long range no less) while jumping. Same goes for casting btw. where people jump to have the start and end of casting in LoS while being out of LoS otherwise.

TL;DR Make jump interrupt shots and spells.
Now we are going to see posts of YouTube video of the fantastic archery of the danish guy....all horseshit

I'm all for fixing the jump mechanic of archery honestly. I've seen it used in some abusive ways. Like on top of very sharp hills, edge of the ramp on bridges, where it can really be broken vs a caster trying to defend themselves and have no LoS away from keeps/towers.

Can also make this affect spells too, jumping should interrupt actions. I even have a 3yo that likes to press my jump button while I'm playing all the time but it's for the greater good :p

Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 6:51 AM
Man, none of them would actually choose to play a solo battle bard, that's just a ridiculous comparison. Especially because none of these rangers, who are supposedly playing the class because they lack a solo option with speed six, are even soloing on a class that CAN solo.

How do you know? What evidence do you have for this statement... I atleast have proof in the fact that the other two realms have a speed 6 classes that can kill things taking away from archer population on their realms. Based on this fact, I can atleast give a good argument that if Hibernia had a real battle bard the numbers show it would reduce the amount of archers for the realm.

Rangers may not be soloing, but they would prefer it over stealth groups if they could, but all realms stealth group, not just hib. Hib has higher amounts of archer groups because it lacks a competent soloable spd6 class.

Bards fit their role very well... but if you compare utility on minstrel instruments vs bard music lines it shows a big discrepancy favoring instruments anyways. Not a real issue but a noticeable difference.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:25 PM by DinoTriz
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:04 PM
I'm all for fixing the jump mechanic of archery honestly. I've seen it used in some abusive ways. Like on top of very sharp hills, edge of the ramp on bridges

I agree with disabling shooting/casting while jumping, but you know why archers do that? Because it's literally the only chance at winning a fight.

When you have to resort to terrain exploits in order to win fights, there's something wrong with the class.

Archers need a reason to spec into their melee lines. Almost all are going Sniper spec now. Especially Scouts, where there's very little difference between putting 0 points into a weapon line or putting 50 into one.

Something seriously broken with Scout melee.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:17 PM by Forlornhope
DinoTriz wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:25 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:04 PM
I'm all for fixing the jump mechanic of archery honestly. I've seen it used in some abusive ways. Like on top of very sharp hills, edge of the ramp on bridges

I agree with disabling shooting/casting while jumping, but you know why archers do that? Because it's literally the only chance at winning a fight.

When you have to resort to terrain exploits in order to win fights, there's something wrong with the class.

Archers need a reason to spec into their melee lines. Almost all are going Sniper spec now. Especially Scouts, where there's very little difference between putting 0 points into a weapon line or putting 50 into one.

Something seriously broken with Scout melee.

Right before they did the archery changes there we people saying that archers needed a reason to spec into more archery... because all were melee speced and running 27 bow, as my hunter does now. This post is funny lol
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:22 PM by Forlornhope
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:04 PM
gotwqqd wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 11:29 AM
Tyrlaan wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:03 AM
Held shots are okay but fixing the jump abuse would go a long way in fixing archer damage around structures. I´m no master archer but I doubt anybody would hit much (at very long range no less) while jumping. Same goes for casting btw. where people jump to have the start and end of casting in LoS while being out of LoS otherwise.

TL;DR Make jump interrupt shots and spells.
Now we are going to see posts of YouTube video of the fantastic archery of the danish guy....all horseshit

I'm all for fixing the jump mechanic of archery honestly. I've seen it used in some abusive ways. Like on top of very sharp hills, edge of the ramp on bridges, where it can really be broken vs a caster trying to defend themselves and have no LoS away from keeps/towers.

Can also make this affect spells too, jumping should interrupt actions. I even have a 3yo that likes to press my jump button while I'm playing all the time but it's for the greater good :p

Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 6:51 AM
Man, none of them would actually choose to play a solo battle bard, that's just a ridiculous comparison. Especially because none of these rangers, who are supposedly playing the class because they lack a solo option with speed six, are even soloing on a class that CAN solo.


How do you know? What evidence do you have for this statement... I atleast have proof in the fact that the other two realms have a speed 6 classes that can kill things taking away from archer population on their realms. Based on this fact, I can atleast give a good argument that if Hibernia had a real battle bard the numbers show it would reduce the amount of archers for the realm.

Rangers may not be soloing, but they would prefer it over stealth groups if they could, but all realms stealth group, not just hib. Hib has higher amounts of archer groups because it lacks a competent soloable spd6 class.

Bards fit their role very well... but if you compare utility on minstrel instruments vs bard music lines it shows a big discrepancy favoring instruments anyways. Not a real issue but a noticeable difference.

Rangers can already solo, they just choose not too. If they're not going to run solo on a class that already has the ability why would you or anyone else assume they're going to run solo on battle bards if they were made viable? That doesn't make any sense, and neither does the comparison of the classes in this thread in general. Bringing up not having viable solo battle bards as the reason for all the archer groups is just laughable.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:40 PM by DinoTriz
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:17 PM
Right before they did the archery changes there we people saying that archers needed a reason to spec into more archery... because all were melee speced and running 27 bow, as my hunter does now. This post is funny lol

That's why I mentioned Scout, because it's mainly a Scout issue.

Hunter has the most potent melee out of all the archers, by far.

We have to decide what the Archer's role is.

Is it an ambusher? Should it do less Bow damage but stand toe-to-toe after opening up with arrows?

People want to decimate Archers. They can't nerf everything. Archer classes still need to be viable.

If you nerf bow damage, you'll need to buff melee.

And just because something kills you, does not make it OP.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:44 PM by Forlornhope
DinoTriz wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:40 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:17 PM
Right before they did the archery changes there we people saying that archers needed a reason to spec into more archery... because all were melee speced and running 27 bow, as my hunter does now. This post is funny lol

That's why I mentioned Scout, because it's mainly a Scout issue.

Hunter has the most potent melee out of all the archers, by far.

We have to decide what the Archer's role is.

Is it an ambusher? Should it do less Bow damage but stand toe-to-toe after opening up with arrows?

People want to decimate Archers. They can't nerf everything. Archer classes still need to be viable.

If you nerf bow damage, you'll need to buff melee.

And just because something kills you, does not make it OP.

Shouldn't need to do anything with hunter melee or ranger melee. Scout melee's terrible though, but buffing their melee now after giving them the 45 shield style would just create more issues imo. Only thing they really could do is remove Stop then buff their melee, which isn't going to happen. And odds are pretty good they're not going to do anything about bow damage either. I personally think bow damage is fine, for a solo archer.. That's not the problem though, the problem is all the groups of archers/stealthers.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:57 PM by inoeth
even "solo" rangers do too much dmg... standing in guard range at crauchon, without any chance of revenge, shooting for 500 while average hp is around 2k...
so opening with a 1k crit+ 2 normal does the job .... thats 6 seconds without crit shot draw time and ppl still claim dmg is ok WTF
Fri 30 Oct 2020 2:08 PM by DinoTriz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1xIQQsNjYM
Fri 30 Oct 2020 2:20 PM by Tubby
DinoTriz wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:40 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:17 PM
Right before they did the archery changes there we people saying that archers needed a reason to spec into more archery... because all were melee speced and running 27 bow, as my hunter does now. This post is funny lol

That's why I mentioned Scout, because it's mainly a Scout issue.

Hunter has the most potent melee out of all the archers, by far.

We have to decide what the Archer's role is.

Is it an ambusher? Should it do less Bow damage but stand toe-to-toe after opening up with arrows?

People want to decimate Archers. They can't nerf everything. Archer classes still need to be viable.

If you nerf bow damage, you'll need to buff melee.

And just because something kills you, does not make it OP.

This is such a wrong statement bow damage can be decreased without the buff of mele. Just have utility shots like cripple root or point blank at least point blank they are close.. this 2000 range dmg is a joke and things need to be done its ruining the small man game the solo game and the 8man game. Its poor choices that have led the population to rise. They wanted to do somthing about scout zergs yet they increased the population lol and made it easier
Fri 30 Oct 2020 2:35 PM by Bradekes
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:22 PM
Rangers can already solo, they just choose not too. If they're not going to run solo on a class that already has the ability why would you or anyone else assume they're going to run solo on battle bards if they were made viable? That doesn't make any sense, and neither does the comparison of the classes in this thread in general. Bringing up not having viable solo battle bards as the reason for all the archer groups is just laughable.

Well the evidence still supports that realms with a combat speed6 class have lower archer population. I still support that idea as it makes sense, when you give more options the numbers spread out. I'm just not sure you're really taking the time to understand and link the ideas I'm giving. You would much rather join the ranger hate train than think of why the population of rangers exists at its current amount.

You will still have ranger groups to worry about but they won't be so prevalent outside of BG gameplay.

If you also want an answer as to "Why now!? Ranger pop wasn't this big at launch..." well hib players finally realized it's not worth running visibles with no speed 6 solo. You also have to consider back then most ran with zerg suicide missions just to hit task credit. Classes didn't matter.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 4:00 PM by imweasel
DinoTriz wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:40 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:17 PM
Right before they did the archery changes there we people saying that archers needed a reason to spec into more archery... because all were melee speced and running 27 bow, as my hunter does now. This post is funny lol

That's why I mentioned Scout, because it's mainly a Scout issue.

Hunter has the most potent melee out of all the archers, by far.

We have to decide what the Archer's role is.

Is it an ambusher? Should it do less Bow damage but stand toe-to-toe after opening up with arrows?

People want to decimate Archers. They can't nerf everything. Archer classes still need to be viable.

If you nerf bow damage, you'll need to buff melee.

And just because something kills you, does not make it OP.

They can and are willing to nerf everything. Do not put anything past the team.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 7:57 PM by IdiamVonGawaine
inoeth wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:57 PM
even "solo" rangers do too much dmg... standing in guard range at crauchon, without any chance of revenge, shooting for 500 while average hp is around 2k...
so opening with a 1k crit+ 2 normal does the job .... thats 6 seconds without crit shot draw time and ppl still claim dmg is ok WTF

I posted this data in another thread to try and educate people about ACTUAL archer damage coming from a 50 bow/48 PF ranger. In short, your assessment is nonsense, as a 50 bow spec ranger can't even out dps the BASELINE spell of a sorc. You are just a biased player attempting to create noise in order to get ONE class nerfed for your benefit at the expense of others.

..........................................................................
......... the bolt caster also has a timer for their high power shot. However, unlike the archer, they get TWO high power shots before having to resort to lower dps spells.

Let's do the math using the chanter delve and damage as a point of reference given the casters dex of 329, which is easily achievable by any caster in the game.
Chanter lvl 48 pbaoe: 2.5s cast 325 damage delve
Due to dex at 329 this spell is cast at 55% of delve speed so 55% of 2.5 = 1.37
This spell hit the training dummy for 467 damage, which will serve as our baseline damage

Fire wizzie level 46 baseline bolt: 2.5 s at 239 damge delve
239 is 73% of the chanter 325 delve, which means it will do 73% of the damage total of 467
73% of 467 = 340

Fire wizzie cast 1 at 1.37 secs = 340 damage

Fire wizzie level 50 spec bolt: 2.5 s at 331 delve
331 is greater than the chanter 325 delve by 2%.
467 + 2 % = 476

Fire wizzie cast 2 at 1.37 secs = 476

Fire wizzie lvl 47 spec dd: 2.8 s at 219.6 delve
With our dex at 329 we cast at 55% of delve, and 55% of 2.8 = 1.54
219 delve is 67% of our chanter base delve of 325, and 67% of our base damage of 467 = 312

Fire wizzie cast 3 at 1.54 secs = 312

So in the example of our fire wizzie, his total 3 cast time and damage =
Cast 1 at 1.37 for 340
Cast 2 at 1.37 for 476
Cast 3 at 1.54 for 312
Total cast time: 4.28 secs
Total damage: 1128

3 casts in 4.28 secs for 1128 damage from the fire wizzie, which is almost double the archer 3 shot dps total of 1176 in twice the time of 8.8 secs.

Lets continue casting with the wizzie until we reach the 8.8 seconds it took the archer to fire his 3 shots cited in my earlier post.

Cast 1 at 1.37 for 340
Cast 2 at 1.37 for 476 / total time 2.74 @ 816
Cast 3 at 1.54 for 312 / totat time 4.28 @ 1128
Cast 4 at 1.54 for 312 / total time 5.82 @ 1440
Cast 5 at 1.54 for 312 / total time 7.36 @ 1752
Cast 6 at 1.54 for 312 / toatl time 8.90 @ 2064

So 2064 damage in 8.9 vs. the archer 1176 in 8.8, which means that the archer that invests all his points in his bow can only hope to achieve 56% of what his fellow caster can achieve with the same investment. Add in RA's that increase cast speed, and the caster damage rises, while archer speed is capped.

Let's look at and compare a baseline spell..............

Sorc level 50 lifedrain: 2.5s at 179
Cast time with 329 dex 1.37 secs
179 delve is 55% of our base 467 damage = 256 damage
8.8 sec archer total time / 1.37 = 6.42
6 casts under 8.8 secs at 256 damage = 1536

So the archer can't even match a baseline lifetap spell and is only capable of achieving a 76% dps rate of the caster in this example, and unlike a lifetap, the arrow offers no healing opportunities.


As I've written before, and as I've demonstrated here, archer damage is NOT an issue, as they get out dps'd by even baseline spells from some of our members of the caster community. Take note that none of these examples include the use of caster de-buffs, nor anything that increases caster speed beyond 329 dex, which has a significant impact on their damage over time.
..............................................................................................................................................................

That data was collected BEFORE they nerfed melee by adding the new stupid variance code, so now our damage is even WORSE.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:05 PM by IdiamVonGawaine
Tubby wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 2:20 PM
[This is such a wrong statement bow damage ....

Is trash.

That's why they assist. They HAVE to assist in order to actually kill something due to heals, bubbles, shields, ablatives, CC, and chars simply running out of range.


You are simply ignorant of the game mechanics and biased against archers for doing what every other class does.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:07 PM by boridi
To high what?
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:09 PM by Cadebrennus
IdiamVonGawaine wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 7:57 PM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:57 PM
even "solo" rangers do too much dmg... standing in guard range at crauchon, without any chance of revenge, shooting for 500 while average hp is around 2k...
so opening with a 1k crit+ 2 normal does the job .... thats 6 seconds without crit shot draw time and ppl still claim dmg is ok WTF

I posted this data in another thread to try and educate people about ACTUAL archer damage coming from a 50 bow/48 PF ranger. In short, your assessment is nonsense, as a 50 bow spec ranger can't even out dps the BASELINE spell of a sorc. You are just a biased player attempting to create noise in order to get ONE class nerfed for your benefit at the expense of others.

..........................................................................
......... the bolt caster also has a timer for their high power shot. However, unlike the archer, they get TWO high power shots before having to resort to lower dps spells.

Let's do the math using the chanter delve and damage as a point of reference given the casters dex of 329, which is easily achievable by any caster in the game.
Chanter lvl 48 pbaoe: 2.5s cast 325 damage delve
Due to dex at 329 this spell is cast at 55% of delve speed so 55% of 2.5 = 1.37
This spell hit the training dummy for 467 damage, which will serve as our baseline damage

Fire wizzie level 46 baseline bolt: 2.5 s at 239 damge delve
239 is 73% of the chanter 325 delve, which means it will do 73% of the damage total of 467
73% of 467 = 340

Fire wizzie cast 1 at 1.37 secs = 340 damage

Fire wizzie level 50 spec bolt: 2.5 s at 331 delve
331 is greater than the chanter 325 delve by 2%.
467 + 2 % = 476

Fire wizzie cast 2 at 1.37 secs = 476

Fire wizzie lvl 47 spec dd: 2.8 s at 219.6 delve
With our dex at 329 we cast at 55% of delve, and 55% of 2.8 = 1.54
219 delve is 67% of our chanter base delve of 325, and 67% of our base damage of 467 = 312

Fire wizzie cast 3 at 1.54 secs = 312

So in the example of our fire wizzie, his total 3 cast time and damage =
Cast 1 at 1.37 for 340
Cast 2 at 1.37 for 476
Cast 3 at 1.54 for 312
Total cast time: 4.28 secs
Total damage: 1128

3 casts in 4.28 secs for 1128 damage from the fire wizzie, which is almost double the archer 3 shot dps total of 1176 in twice the time of 8.8 secs.

Lets continue casting with the wizzie until we reach the 8.8 seconds it took the archer to fire his 3 shots cited in my earlier post.

Cast 1 at 1.37 for 340
Cast 2 at 1.37 for 476 / total time 2.74 @ 816
Cast 3 at 1.54 for 312 / totat time 4.28 @ 1128
Cast 4 at 1.54 for 312 / total time 5.82 @ 1440
Cast 5 at 1.54 for 312 / total time 7.36 @ 1752
Cast 6 at 1.54 for 312 / toatl time 8.90 @ 2064

So 2064 damage in 8.9 vs. the archer 1176 in 8.8, which means that the archer that invests all his points in his bow can only hope to achieve 56% of what his fellow caster can achieve with the same investment. Add in RA's that increase cast speed, and the caster damage rises, while archer speed is capped.

Let's look at and compare a baseline spell..............

Sorc level 50 lifedrain: 2.5s at 179
Cast time with 329 dex 1.37 secs
179 delve is 55% of our base 467 damage = 256 damage
8.8 sec archer total time / 1.37 = 6.42
6 casts under 8.8 secs at 256 damage = 1536

So the archer can't even match a baseline lifetap spell and is only capable of achieving a 76% dps rate of the caster in this example, and unlike a lifetap, the arrow offers no healing opportunities.


As I've written before, and as I've demonstrated here, archer damage is NOT an issue, as they get out dps'd by even baseline spells from some of our members of the caster community. Take note that none of these examples include the use of caster de-buffs, nor anything that increases caster speed beyond 329 dex, which has a significant impact on their damage over time.
..............................................................................................................................................................

That data was collected BEFORE they nerfed melee by adding the new stupid variance code, so now our damage is even WORSE.

Don't use logic and math. That will make his tiny head explode.
Fri 30 Oct 2020 10:05 PM by DJ2000
This has to be the most bizarre math i have seen in my entire life. What were you even trying to prove or accomplish with this?

You take a PBAoE Spell, of all things, and take the peak Point blank damage on a Dummy as a Base....
Then u throw Delve-Comparison Loops with some Spells that are completely different from each other and paper-daoc your way to victory....
Best part was: "476+2% = 476" ... i literally stopped reading.
Do it again and check your calculations.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 12:07 AM by easytoremember
DJ2000 wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 10:05 PM
This has to be the most bizarre math i have seen in my entire life. What were you even trying to prove or accomplish with this?

You take a PBAoE Spell, of all things, and take the peak Point blank damage on a Dummy as a Base....
Then u throw Delve-Comparison Loops with some Spells that are completely different from each other and paper-daoc your way to victory....
The pbae establishes the highest self-acheieved dps available; archer dps is nowhere close
The bolts are mentioned because they are similar to critshot; the archer dps doesn't come close
Even baseline dd spam has higher dps than an archer, and when you take out critshot for an encounter their dps flatlines even harder where that is not the case for casters. That is significant because multiple casters hitting the same target do not have the dps falloff seen in multiple archers hitting the same target

-with the overall point being archer dps is low post-buff, and people are conflating burst with dps
Sat 31 Oct 2020 12:26 AM by Bradekes
I don't agree with all this misleading math... you can't compare archer dps to caster it's apples and oranges.. there's instances where archery provides dps where spells never could.. being able to hold a shot allows damage when a target barely comes into view. You can prep a shot with no target or with a target out of LoS. The dps is at a range no damage spell has.

Archer dps isn't even the problem on this thread it's the number of archers grouping.

Also using the target dummy is misleading as it has ABS/AF comparable to chain armor. When you should have a dps listed vs cloth, leather, studded to really see the difference.

Also the target dummy has 26% resistance vs enemies which have 50% with buffer resistance buffs. OFC this can be mitigated with resistance debuffs but you shouldn't assume most spells will be cast with resistance debuff but most targets in bg will have resistance buffs.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 12:42 AM by Horus
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 8:20 AM
Instead of admitting that the archery dmg is too high overall (with the Ranger population being by far the strongest), most Hibs behave like little children. Just don't admit that something is too strong from which you benefit yourself. And I thought the daoc community was grown up?

The necro bugs should be changed and fixed in the same way as other bugs/exploits, but also the bowdmg for all 3 realms (whereby the hunter needs a smaller nerf because he has no 5.5 bows) is way too high. Not wanting to admit it and instead ridiculing it does not help the server and the server population.

Skald was roaming CG killing lev 35 levelers earlier. I engaged him in the perfect situation. He was distracted. I was at range. I had purge and IP up he killed me with well over 50% health and I'm sure he had IP too and didn't have to use it.

Using your logic, skald damage should be nerfed then too as full spec PF and bow barely scratched him and he killed me easily even though everything was in my favor.

As far as population...in hib ranger is your only option unless you other than NS. And saying minstrel population is high because it is needed in groups is BS. IF that was the case they would be at the same pop level as bards.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 5:26 AM by Lokkjim
Horus wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 12:42 AM
Skald was roaming CG killing lev 35 levelers earlier. I engaged him in the perfect situation. He was distracted. I was at range. I had purge and IP up he killed me with well over 50% health and I'm sure he had IP too and didn't have to use it.

Using your logic, skald damage should be nerfed then too as full spec PF and bow barely scratched him and he killed me easily even though everything was in my favor.

As far as population...in hib ranger is your only option unless you other than NS. And saying minstrel population is high because it is needed in groups is BS. IF that was the case they would be at the same pop level as bards.

Bards can only be a part of small man, 8-man, and zerg. Maybe solo if they're feeling very adventurous.

Minstrels can solo, stealth group, zerg, small man, 8-man, you name it. Minstrels fit more playstyles than bard so it makes sense that they have a higher population than a bard.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 8:17 AM by Nogrod
I have recently play in different configuration : Mid and Hib solo visible (Skald & Enchant) Alb and Hib BG (healer) etc.

I personnaly don't see a huge problem about Archers damages. (but yes the stop style and chain root is a total aberration)
But yes there is a big problem right now, and you're right to say that the population of archer is too high ( as much as 20% of hib pop sometime in low pop hours)
Everywhere you go there are small grp of ranger poping on solo / small / adding / assisting.
There will soon be no other gameplay if the situation continue in that way. , and i think that's a big problem for the server health.

I would add that there is no comparaison to caster/visible. When you arrive somewhere you see how much ennemis you have to face. and most importantly you see them cast.
Problem with archers is that you never know how much are here (and ofc they usually wait you to fight to pop lol) and you don't see them before they hit you.

Maybe a solution would be not to reduce the dmg but to unstealh the archer as soon as they start bowing.
That would give other people some time to react and in BG you could then have a chance to interupt them.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 8:36 AM by Astaa
Right. When you are out in your small man do you run over solo visibles?

It's not a dig, everyone is entitled to play the game how they like but small man/8 man players should not be terribly surprised if they force people to play stealthers. Small mans are absolutely fair game to archer zergs, their playstyle has forced people to hide

With the caveat that any reduction of players is a bad thing, I am not overly fussed if small man players or 8 man players quit to be honest, their play style directly affects my access to solo visi play, making it impossible, so my personal options are to stop playing DAOC all together, join the zerg or roll a stealther. I did the later, with a bit of zerg surfing added in. The fact that I (along with other archers in the area) can mow down the smallmans, that would zerg me without a second thought, is a bonus.

Edit. I could group but I just don't like grouping, for various reasons. I am AFK quite a lot, I'm an adult now with a busy job and a household to run, I just can't guarantee that I would be a useful group member. I also like doing my own thing, chilling in DAOC instead of running around active all the time. I will often just sit in the BG watching a film, it's quite interesting to just watch an evenings frontier fight unfold, while watching a film or something.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 9:22 AM by IdiamVonGawaine
DJ2000 wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 10:05 PM
......................

If you can't understand simple math, then your opinion isn't worth the effort.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 9:25 AM by IdiamVonGawaine
Bradekes wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 12:26 AM
I don't agree with ...
[/quote

FACTS.

You don't agree with facts.

Therefore, your opinion is WORTHLESS, since it does not reflect the reality of the game.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 12:31 PM by Tubby
IdiamVonGawaine wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 7:57 PM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:57 PM
even "solo" rangers do too much dmg... standing in guard range at crauchon, without any chance of revenge, shooting for 500 while average hp is around 2k...
so opening with a 1k crit+ 2 normal does the job .... thats 6 seconds without crit shot draw time and ppl still claim dmg is ok WTF

I posted this data in another thread to try and educate people about ACTUAL archer damage coming from a 50 bow/48 PF ranger. In short, your assessment is nonsense, as a 50 bow spec ranger can't even out dps the BASELINE spell of a sorc. You are just a biased player attempting to create noise in order to get ONE class nerfed for your benefit at the expense of others.

..........................................................................
......... the bolt caster also has a timer for their high power shot. However, unlike the archer, they get TWO high power shots before having to resort to lower dps spells.

Let's do the math using the chanter delve and damage as a point of reference given the casters dex of 329, which is easily achievable by any caster in the game.
Chanter lvl 48 pbaoe: 2.5s cast 325 damage delve
Due to dex at 329 this spell is cast at 55% of delve speed so 55% of 2.5 = 1.37
This spell hit the training dummy for 467 damage, which will serve as our baseline damage

Fire wizzie level 46 baseline bolt: 2.5 s at 239 damge delve
239 is 73% of the chanter 325 delve, which means it will do 73% of the damage total of 467
73% of 467 = 340

Fire wizzie cast 1 at 1.37 secs = 340 damage

Fire wizzie level 50 spec bolt: 2.5 s at 331 delve
331 is greater than the chanter 325 delve by 2%.
467 + 2 % = 476

Fire wizzie cast 2 at 1.37 secs = 476

Fire wizzie lvl 47 spec dd: 2.8 s at 219.6 delve
With our dex at 329 we cast at 55% of delve, and 55% of 2.8 = 1.54
219 delve is 67% of our chanter base delve of 325, and 67% of our base damage of 467 = 312

Fire wizzie cast 3 at 1.54 secs = 312

So in the example of our fire wizzie, his total 3 cast time and damage =
Cast 1 at 1.37 for 340
Cast 2 at 1.37 for 476
Cast 3 at 1.54 for 312
Total cast time: 4.28 secs
Total damage: 1128

3 casts in 4.28 secs for 1128 damage from the fire wizzie, which is almost double the archer 3 shot dps total of 1176 in twice the time of 8.8 secs.

Lets continue casting with the wizzie until we reach the 8.8 seconds it took the archer to fire his 3 shots cited in my earlier post.

Cast 1 at 1.37 for 340
Cast 2 at 1.37 for 476 / total time 2.74 @ 816
Cast 3 at 1.54 for 312 / totat time 4.28 @ 1128
Cast 4 at 1.54 for 312 / total time 5.82 @ 1440
Cast 5 at 1.54 for 312 / total time 7.36 @ 1752
Cast 6 at 1.54 for 312 / toatl time 8.90 @ 2064

So 2064 damage in 8.9 vs. the archer 1176 in 8.8, which means that the archer that invests all his points in his bow can only hope to achieve 56% of what his fellow caster can achieve with the same investment. Add in RA's that increase cast speed, and the caster damage rises, while archer speed is capped.

Let's look at and compare a baseline spell..............

Sorc level 50 lifedrain: 2.5s at 179
Cast time with 329 dex 1.37 secs
179 delve is 55% of our base 467 damage = 256 damage
8.8 sec archer total time / 1.37 = 6.42
6 casts under 8.8 secs at 256 damage = 1536

So the archer can't even match a baseline lifetap spell and is only capable of achieving a 76% dps rate of the caster in this example, and unlike a lifetap, the arrow offers no healing opportunities.


As I've written before, and as I've demonstrated here, archer damage is NOT an issue, as they get out dps'd by even baseline spells from some of our members of the caster community. Take note that none of these examples include the use of caster de-buffs, nor anything that increases caster speed beyond 329 dex, which has a significant impact on their damage over time.
..............................................................................................................................................................

That data was collected BEFORE they nerfed melee by adding the new stupid variance code, so now our damage is even WORSE.

you did all this over ranger dmg that stealths and has get out of jail cards to a caster that can be 3 shot by a ranger. your mental lol
Sat 31 Oct 2020 1:04 PM by Messerjockel
Another way too reduce stealth population is that in regards to dots you can stealth 10 seconds after the last dot and not as it is here, 10 seconds after the first dot. It would make it for stealth a lot more difficult to kill and get away.

Flup, hib ranger
Sat 31 Oct 2020 1:06 PM by Bradekes
IdiamVonGawaine wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 9:25 AM
Bradekes wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 12:26 AM
I don't agree with ...

FACTS.

You don't agree with facts.

Therefore, your opinion is WORTHLESS, since it does not reflect the reality of the game.

I don't disagree with your numbers, I am just saying that just basic numbers leave out a lot of information. It's your right to ignore that information but it doesn't make it any less real. Numbers in a vacuum mean nothing by themselves bud. I've never felt once that archers damage was subpar when getting shot by one or healing someone getting shot by one. It isn't ridiculously high or broken either though. If you want to talk broken, why does alb get baseline 2.5spd 179dmg LT that get 15% extra dmg for just being lifetaps and no other realm does? That is broken lol..

Just because I don't agree with what your numbers actually conclude doesn't mean I don't disagree with any facts as you are not exactly giving facts just numbers.. If you won't agree that archers have certain advantages with their ability to hold a shot then I really have nothing else to say to you or any reason to respond in the future on this topic with you.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 2:17 PM by Azrael
IdiamVonGawaine wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 7:57 PM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:57 PM
even "solo" rangers do too much dmg... standing in guard range at crauchon, without any chance of revenge, shooting for 500 while average hp is around 2k...
so opening with a 1k crit+ 2 normal does the job .... thats 6 seconds without crit shot draw time and ppl still claim dmg is ok WTF

I posted this data in another thread to try and educate people about ACTUAL archer damage coming from a 50 bow/48 PF ranger. In short, your assessment is nonsense, as a 50 bow spec ranger can't even out dps the BASELINE spell of a sorc. You are just a biased player attempting to create noise in order to get ONE class nerfed for your benefit at the expense of others.

..........................................................................
.........
Let's do the math using the chanter delve and damage as a point of reference given the casters dex of 329, which is easily achievable by any caster in the game.
Chanter lvl 48 pbaoe: 2.5s cast 325 damage delve
Due to dex at 329 this spell is cast at 55% of delve speed so 55% of 2.5 = 1.37
This spell hit the training dummy for 467 damage, which will serve as our baseline damage
....

That data was collected BEFORE they nerfed melee by adding the new stupid variance code, so now our damage is even WORSE.

At first I thought about writing something about how trashy your "math/facts" are but since you ignore all people who call out your bs I will play the same card you usually do.
YoU aRe ClEaRlY bIaSd To StEaLtHeRs So yOuR oPiNiOn Is WoRtHlEsS aNd WiLl Be IgNoReD.

If you ever leave your bubble, reality hits you and you learn basics like panning camera, range or falloff I will look forward to read your report based on experience.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 4:54 PM by DJ2000
easytoremember wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 12:07 AM
-with the overall point being archer dps is low post-buff, and people are conflating burst with dps

Archer Damage is front loaded, IF the Crit hits (which it mostly does). Crit shot value is 2x normal shot.

Archer are considered Physical-Based Ranged DPS.
Casters are considered Magical-Based Ranged DPS.

Archers have no offensive utility besides choosing which physical Damage Type (Slash, Pierce, Crush) the Arrows applies. DPS is the only thing an Archer can do.
Why should a Ranged DPS Class not be able to do so? Stop the talk about damage values of RR10+ Archers or comparisons with other classes. The Damage Part is not the problem.

IdiamVonGawaine wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 9:22 AM
If you can't understand simple math, then your opinion isn't worth the effort.
IdiamVonGawaine wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 9:22 AM
467 + 2 % = 476 - IdiamVonGawaine

Try again in a more civil manner.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 5:00 PM by ExcretusMaximus
I believe there are far too many archers, but why is everyone quoting 467 + 2% = 476 as if it's wrong?

It's not.

467 * 1.02 = 476.34
Sat 31 Oct 2020 5:31 PM by skipari
ExcretusMaximus wrote: I believe there are far too many archers, but why is everyone quoting 467 + 2% = 476 as if it's wrong?

It's not.

467 * 1.02 = 476.34

because this guy:

DJ2000 wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 10:05 PM
This has to be the most bizarre math i have seen in my entire life. What were you even trying to prove or accomplish with this?

You take a PBAoE Spell, of all things, and take the peak Point blank damage on a Dummy as a Base....
Then u throw Delve-Comparison Loops with some Spells that are completely different from each other and paper-daoc your way to victory....
Best part was: "476+2% = 476" ... i literally stopped reading.
Do it again and check your calculations.

wasn't able to quote
Sat 31 Oct 2020 8:44 PM by Lokkjim
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 5:00 PM
I believe there are far too many archers, but why is everyone quoting 467 + 2% = 476 as if it's wrong?

It's not.

467 * 1.02 = 476.34

It's possible Idiam may have edited it after making the mistake or DJ2000 may have seen it incorrectly. I haven't paid that much attention to this thread.
Sat 31 Oct 2020 8:56 PM by skipari
Lokkjim wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 8:44 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 5:00 PM
I believe there are far too many archers, but why is everyone quoting 467 + 2% = 476 as if it's wrong?

It's not.

467 * 1.02 = 476.34

It's possible Idiam may have edited it after making the mistake or DJ2000 may have seen it incorrectly. I haven't paid that much attention to this thread.

nah the full post got quoted like 15min after, so very unlikely that it got changed, especially since DJs post was after the full quote
Sat 31 Oct 2020 10:10 PM by Freudinio
Astaa wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:26 PM
The thread is about population.

Popularity is obviously reflected on how great the class is. If it sucked, then there wouldn't be 50+ rangers on at primetime every single day.

I'm not saying make archery classes unplayable. But I am saying there is an issue when I can get 3shot on a fully buffed, fully templated merc by a rr7 ranger.

I mean, 2h SB's perf me for less damage than a standard ranger hit... maybe they should buff shadowblades!
Sun 1 Nov 2020 8:11 AM by Cadebrennus
Freudinio wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 10:10 PM
Astaa wrote:
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:26 PM
The thread is about population.

Popularity is obviously reflected on how great the class is. If it sucked, then there wouldn't be 50+ rangers on at primetime every single day.

I'm not saying make archery classes unplayable. But I am saying there is an issue when I can get 3shot on a fully buffed, fully templated merc by a rr7 ranger.

I mean, 2h SB's perf me for less damage than a standard ranger hit... maybe they should buff shadowblades!

It's easier to log on to a Stealther, run out and play, then log off. No spamming LFG/etc. Plus, an Archer is easier to play and temp than an Assassin. Even if you're not a good player It's easy to just stealth, critshot, and regular shot someone, especially if you're assisting. Now, Archers tend to be easy to counter and kill, hence why they stealthzerg so damn much. An Assassin requires more forethought in target acquisition (location etc., not necessarily target type), and requires a shit ton of weapon and poison management (types of poison and weapon procs)

The numbers don't reflect that it's a stronger class, just an easier one.
Sun 1 Nov 2020 11:17 PM by Tubby
boridi wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:07 PM
To high what?

https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
Mon 2 Nov 2020 12:07 AM by Chia
Tubby wrote:
Sun 1 Nov 2020 11:17 PM
boridi wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:07 PM
To high what?

https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions

All you trash rangers finally gonna get all of the archers nerfed Boo!
Tue 3 Nov 2020 1:17 PM by Pasa
Chia wrote:
Mon 2 Nov 2020 12:07 AM
Tubby wrote:
Sun 1 Nov 2020 11:17 PM
boridi wrote:
Fri 30 Oct 2020 9:07 PM
To high what?

https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/27300-archery-adjustments-aompd-and-champions

All you trash rangers finally gonna get all of the archers nerfed Boo!


but you're still dying from Archers....Booooooo!!!
Fri 6 Nov 2020 6:38 AM by MeatBicycle
Getting Critshots while already in combat just sucks.
Fri 6 Nov 2020 7:05 PM by Noashakra
Freudinio wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 10:10 PM
The thread is about population.
I'm not saying make archery classes unplayable. But I am saying there is an issue when I can get 3shot on a fully buffed, fully templated merc by a rr7 ranger.

Screenshot or it didn't happen.
If you have less than 1800hp on your merc, something is wrong.
Mon 9 Nov 2020 12:36 AM by Freudinio
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 6 Nov 2020 7:05 PM
Freudinio wrote:
Sat 31 Oct 2020 10:10 PM
The thread is about population.
I'm not saying make archery classes unplayable. But I am saying there is an issue when I can get 3shot on a fully buffed, fully templated merc by a rr7 ranger.

Screenshot or it didn't happen.
If you have less than 1800hp on your merc, something is wrong.

I don't really screenshot anything.

But as I recall it was:

107x
103x
96x

I think the ranger in question was Needanarrowupyour (or something close to that). Maybe he screenshot it?
Mon 9 Nov 2020 10:00 AM by Noashakra
Sure, you ate 3 crit shots in a row...
There is a 10secs immunity on crit shots...

Of course you have no screenshot.
Next.
Thu 12 Nov 2020 10:46 AM by Freudinio
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 9 Nov 2020 10:00 AM
Sure, you ate 3 crit shots in a row...
There is a 10secs immunity on crit shots...

Of course you have no screenshot.
Next.

Believe what you want.
Thu 12 Nov 2020 11:24 AM by Noashakra
Freudinio wrote:
Thu 12 Nov 2020 10:46 AM
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 9 Nov 2020 10:00 AM
Sure, you ate 3 crit shots in a row...
There is a 10secs immunity on crit shots...

Of course you have no screenshot.
Next.

Believe what you want.

This is the problem, I don't believe, I want facts and proofs. Your story is BS because you can't crit shot three times in a row.
Until you show us it's possible, your story has no credibility.

The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi, shortened from Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position.

You are the one claiming something is possible, when the game mecanics are not supposed to allow what you claim.
The burden of proof is on you.
Thu 12 Nov 2020 1:58 PM by Freudinio
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 12 Nov 2020 11:24 AM
Freudinio wrote:
Thu 12 Nov 2020 10:46 AM
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 9 Nov 2020 10:00 AM
Sure, you ate 3 crit shots in a row...
There is a 10secs immunity on crit shots...

Of course you have no screenshot.
Next.

Believe what you want.

This is the problem, I don't believe, I want facts and proofs. Your story is BS because you can't crit shot three times in a row.
Until you show us it's possible, your story has no credibility.

The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi, shortened from Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position.

You are the one claiming something is possible, when the game mecanics are not supposed to allow what you claim.
The burden of proof is on you.

We do not answer to you and we have zero to prove to you. Do you think the damage was nerfed or that there are a million (I made this number up) ranged classes in RvR because damage was "fine".

You consider yourself far too important.

I know how ranged mechanics work btw.
Thu 12 Nov 2020 4:28 PM by Sepplord
Freudinio wrote:
Thu 12 Nov 2020 1:58 PM
We do not answer to you and we have zero to prove to you. Do you think the damage was nerfed or that there are a million (I made this number up) ranged classes in RvR because damage was "fine".

You consider yourself far too important.

I know how ranged mechanics work btw.

Who is "we" Oo
Claiming to be representative of a bigger group doesn't magically add credibility to your claim.
And to be fair, the claim you make about being threeshot by the same person really is very unlikely. If it happened it is a huge bug that appeared, but investigating all random claims without proof just leads to staff killing themselves (figuratively). You are probably misremembering that, no problem, that can happen to all of us.
Doubling down and getting personal and defensive is a differnt thing though...especially when you claim that you know ranged mechanics...

That's just not logical that someone who knows how it is supposed to work, doesn't screenshot, andthen gets upset that others want proof for it.

Archers got nerfed, there was an issue and if the nerf fixed the issue is an unknown. I agree on that, and that they got nerfed is a fact. But that wasn't what Noashakra is disputing.
Fri 13 Nov 2020 7:38 AM by Noashakra
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens.
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:22 AM by Nando
Still way too many archers , still impossible to get a keep with all 40-50 of them defending at prime time
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:33 AM by Patron
Nando wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:22 AM
Still way too many archers , still impossible to get a keep with all 40-50 of them defending at prime time

Yeah with casterzergs lol
Get some shields and heal = keep raided
Get some sins and light tanks for the walls = keep raided
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:58 AM by WildWilbur
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 7:38 AM
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens.

Donald disagrees
Fri 13 Nov 2020 10:13 AM by Sepplord
WildWilbur wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:58 AM
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 7:38 AM
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens.

Donald disagrees
No always though, only when it benefits
Fri 13 Nov 2020 10:21 AM by Astaa
Patron wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:33 AM
Nando wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:22 AM
Still way too many archers , still impossible to get a keep with all 40-50 of them defending at prime time

Yeah with casterzergs lol
Get some shields and heal = keep raided
Get some sins and light tanks for the walls = keep raided

Shhhhh! Everyone in Albion knows that you take keeps by standing in the open waiting to be shot from the walls!
Fri 13 Nov 2020 10:35 AM by MeatBicycle
Astaa wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 10:21 AM
Patron wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:33 AM
Nando wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 9:22 AM
Still way too many archers , still impossible to get a keep with all 40-50 of them defending at prime time

Yeah with casterzergs lol
Get some shields and heal = keep raided
Get some sins and light tanks for the walls = keep raided

Shhhhh! Everyone in Albion knows that you take keeps by standing in the open waiting to be shot from the walls!

Really funny. What do you think happens when a sin gets close to a stack of rangers with full drawn bows? Beside that: Whenever Mid complains about balance in zergfights you guys state that mid has to use more casters for gtae, aoe and so on instead of playing zerker and savages. Now they should use more light tanks?

In my opinion those archer assists (ranger, scout and even hunters) are just bullshit for the balance in general and i don't think its intended as it is right now. Especially since jumping don't cancel casts or shots which makes the whole tactic so easy to play. The whole concept of archers right now is stupid. Its literally a class (tbh 3 classes) for adding and leeching with huge dmg, huge range and stealth. Even that "stealth detection debuff in stealthgrp" doesn't affect them on open field cause they can spread so far with their huge range.
Fri 13 Nov 2020 10:53 AM by Nando
at crim now - 30 hibs, 10 archers assisting everything - numbers didnt drop after nerf, just sayin
Fri 13 Nov 2020 11:27 AM by Sepplord
the only ones with real data about numbers are the staff...no one here is monitoring all fights everywhere

and they already said when they changed it that they will keep monitoring the situation and try out other changes should the intedned effect not appear
Fri 13 Nov 2020 11:46 AM by Stoertebecker
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 11:27 AM
the only ones with real data about numbers are the staff...no one here is monitoring all fights everywhere

and they already said when they changed it that they will keep monitoring the situation and try out other changes should the intedned effect not appear

The problem is that the chance is moderate that they add this *other changes* on top of the flat damage nerf (without testings before) and make classes unplayable.
Fri 13 Nov 2020 11:52 AM by Stoertebecker
MeatBicycle wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 10:35 AM
In my opinion those archer assists (ranger, scout and even hunters) are just bullshit for the balance in general and i don't think its intended as it is right now. Especially since jumping don't cancel casts or shots which makes the whole tactic so easy to play. The whole concept of archers right now is stupid. Its literally a class (tbh 3 classes) for adding and leeching with huge dmg, huge range and stealth. Even that "stealth detection debuff in stealthgrp" doesn't affect them on open field cause they can spread so far with their huge range.

Don`t throw hunters together in 1 pot with rangers and scouts.
There are usally not more than 3-4 hunters inside a keep under attack because Mids don´t care about defending their home keeps.
Except Glenlock, Arvakr and Fensalir when all other keeps are already gone.

I was in Bledmeer yesterday with 10-12 other mids, there were 3 hunters...against 100+ , just as an example.
Fri 13 Nov 2020 12:04 PM by Sepplord
Stoertebecker wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 11:46 AM
The problem is that the chance is moderate that they add this *other changes* on top of the flat damage nerf (without testings before) and make classes unplayable.

There are 2 potential ways the archer population reduction can go, the first one we'll try is a general damage reduction. If that does not have the desired effect these changes will be partially reverted and another round of changes aimed solely at archery assist will be tried.

After that wording i would say the chances are really low that they simply slap something on top
Fri 13 Nov 2020 3:08 PM by Stoertebecker
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 12:04 PM
After that wording i would say the chances are really low that they simply slap something on top

Haha, we`ll see.
Fri 13 Nov 2020 10:32 PM by DaleRod
To All Whiners and Developer's ,

Like Lynyrd Skynyrd says, "Gimme back , gimme back my bullets, put them back where they belong.......................

DaleRod
Arrowrod
Ranger
Mon 16 Nov 2020 11:13 AM by Tyrlaan
Stoertebecker wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 11:52 AM
Don`t throw hunters together in 1 pot with rangers and scouts.
There are usally not more than 3-4 hunters inside a keep under attack because Mids don´t care about defending their home keeps.
Except Glenlock, Arvakr and Fensalir when all other keeps are already gone.

I was in Bledmeer yesterday with 10-12 other mids, there were 3 hunters...against 100+ , just as an example.

They belong there though. Since every archer but Hunters got a dps nerf, I see plenty bow Hunters at the EV towers. When all archers got a flat damage increase and only two got a nerf afterwards, Hunters had a net buff to their archery where they never had lower dps (just lower frontload damage). I guess I was not the only one to notice.

Just because Mids don´t care about their keeps doesn´t mean Hunter group assists are no problem.

I am no fan of the -9/-4.5% decrease though. The problem was and still is assists, pre-drawn bows from stealth, jumping to hit, not so much the damage (unless relic bonuses which could´ve been fixed by applying no relic bonus - it´s neither melee nor magic). It´s stupid that you have worse archery on Rangers/Scouts now and that you have to invest into all what improved your archery before just to offset an innate handicap. It´s also ridiculous to still see an AoE hit that stealthed 8man of Rangers on keeps. Ibow, Smapy and the other trash.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:33 PM by keen
every additional shot on a target should have diminishing returns. that would stop the keep fight assisting of archers.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:05 PM by Bradekes
At what point do we use this logic of population of a certain amount of one thing to nerf Albion who consistently has larger numbers than both the other realms in RVR? Maybe that implies there's something wrong with realm balance as there was with archer balance.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:53 PM by Astaa
lol, don't be silly. You're asking for consistency.

(currently 40 mincers vs 25 rangers)

...and it being lunchtime on a Monday, those 40 mincers are obviously all in groups! As demonstrated by the 40fg albs roaming about the place...oh wait, no that's not right.

fwiw, there are a massive 8 savages on too!
Mon 16 Nov 2020 2:34 PM by MagicaeFungos
Yesterday i saw something like 60 Wizards on.. Wonder how many were earth wizzies..
Mon 16 Nov 2020 2:55 PM by Bradekes
MagicaeFungos wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 2:34 PM
Yesterday i saw something like 60 Wizards on.. Wonder how many were earth wizzies..

Atleast 100% that are in rvr zone
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:00 PM by Neso
Bradekes wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:05 PM
At what point do we use this logic of population of a certain amount of one thing to nerf Albion who consistently has larger numbers than both the other realms in RVR? Maybe that implies there's something wrong with realm balance as there was with archer balance.

It's what happens when the hib BG gets constantly rolled in open field, no matter the numbers. They then sit in a tower or keep waiting to defend, whilst everyone gets bored and complains (Smaps BG yesterday afternoon for example).

You've then got all rangers doing the same thing. Constantly trying to get ahead of the enemy BG and sit in a tower or keep. Their numbers inflate the BG, whilst providing no support if a fight doesn't happen near a defensive structure.

Current Alb numbers are probably Hibs wanting something different from the constant bickering and back seating.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:17 PM by Astaa
Why on earth would 30-40 Hibs bother trying to take on a 120 Alb BG in open field? What would be the point? Have a think about it for a bit.

Not that the devs have any intention at all of fixing any of the glaring imbalances in siege/zerg RvR or "solo" messing about, the playstyle that the majority like to play.

Alb will get bored of nobody to fight and they will also quit. Not a great deal we as players can do about it...Midgard have already virtually abandoned RvR.

Edit. The devs had the results of the poll and the players answered, they then decided to abandon any improvements, citing people moaning about totally unrelated, though pretty unpopular style changes. Not before making major changes to archers ofc.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:35 PM by Stoertebecker
Tyrlaan wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 11:13 AM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 11:52 AM
Don`t throw hunters together in 1 pot with rangers and scouts.
There are usally not more than 3-4 hunters inside a keep under attack because Mids don´t care about defending their home keeps.
Except Glenlock, Arvakr and Fensalir when all other keeps are already gone.

I was in Bledmeer yesterday with 10-12 other mids, there were 3 hunters...against 100+ , just as an example.

They belong there though. Since every archer but Hunters got a dps nerf, I see plenty bow Hunters at the EV towers. When all archers got a flat damage increase and only two got a nerf afterwards, Hunters had a net buff to their archery where they never had lower dps (just lower frontload damage). I guess I was not the only one to notice.


If you think that Rangers are so low in Damage now that they have to stay in keeps and keep assisting, lets make a deal.
You sponsor me a ranger temp and i`ll show you that a ranger can solo, 1 week from 5l1 to 6l0....solo, without keep sieges.

I`ve noticed an increase in hunters too, must be the 10-15 missing rangers in hib, there were more before the nerf.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:44 PM by Bradekes
Neso wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:00 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:05 PM
At what point do we use this logic of population of a certain amount of one thing to nerf Albion who consistently has larger numbers than both the other realms in RVR? Maybe that implies there's something wrong with realm balance as there was with archer balance.

It's what happens when the hib BG gets constantly rolled in open field, no matter the numbers. They then sit in a tower or keep waiting to defend, whilst everyone gets bored and complains (Smaps BG yesterday afternoon for example).

You've then got all rangers doing the same thing. Constantly trying to get ahead of the enemy BG and sit in a tower or keep. Their numbers inflate the BG, whilst providing no support if a fight doesn't happen near a defensive structure.

Current Alb numbers are probably Hibs wanting something different from the constant bickering and back seating.

So when Albs attack one of our towers we see numbers consistently 90-150 what kind of numbers do you albs see when we attack one of your towers? Usually alb has more actively participating in their bg(enemies killing guard spam) then we have total in our bg which includes afks sitting in relic town and 8mans joining bg to get intel.

We take towers to get counts on your numbers not because we want to tower fight. We see you having 3x our numbers very often, atleast 3x the number of people actively following our BG leader with /follow.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:49 PM by Astaa
Albion
2 popular NS classes
2 popular wall climbing classes
1 ridiculously high utility GTAOE class
1 class that can use siege equipment and lay down GTs with complete immunity to damage.

Hib answer, rangers

oh shit bro, best break archery!
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:57 PM by Astaa
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:35 PM
If you think that Rangers are so low in Damage now

The current damage isn't actually the problem, it's the massive variance in damage is the problem. They have intentionally broken (not adjusted, broken) an entire spec over 3 realms to reduce 1 class in number because they don't have the balls to upset Albion.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:51 PM by Stoertebecker
Astaa wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:57 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:35 PM
If you think that Rangers are so low in Damage now

The current damage isn't actually the problem, it's the massive variance in damage is the problem. They have intentionally broken (not adjusted, broken) an entire spec over 3 realms to reduce 1 class in number because they don't have the balls to upset Albion.

All classes have this variance and such a high variance isn`t somthing we had on the live servers, no matter which patchlevel.
380 or 650 critshot, 12x or 17x with lancer, variance is way over the top, not just for archers, my skald, thane, bd are all facing the same problems.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:56 PM by skipari
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:51 PM
Astaa wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:57 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:35 PM
If you think that Rangers are so low in Damage now

The current damage isn't actually the problem, it's the massive variance in damage is the problem. They have intentionally broken (not adjusted, broken) an entire spec over 3 realms to reduce 1 class in number because they don't have the balls to upset Albion.

All classes have this variance and such a high variance isn`t somthing we had on the live servers, no matter which patchlevel.
380 or 650 critshot, 12x or 17x with lancer, variance is way over the top, not just for archers, my skald, thane, bd are all facing the same problems.

Strictly seen live has indeed a different variance; 0-49 no matter which patchlevel, while phoenix has 0-50. Calling this additional translated 0.5-1% dps high, don't know, sounds wrong.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:59 PM by gruenesschaf
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:51 PM
All classes have this variance and such a high variance isn`t somthing we had on the live servers, no matter which patchlevel.
380 or 650 critshot, 12x or 17x with lancer, variance is way over the top, not just for archers, my skald, thane, bd are all facing the same problems.

Variance is a multiplier ranging from 1 to 1.5. It would be nice if you don't present values against different targets / different conditions as a result of variance. Even if the 650 was at max variance roll it would not be possible to get a 380 against the same target, with 650 being the highest possible variance result the lowest possible would be around 430.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 5:14 PM by Parole
@gruenesschaf 650-430 damage variance difference of 220dmg is more than a lot classes even hit for. Perhaps a one size variance calculation does fit all. Maybe we could get the variance to around 10% once the dmg is over 500 or something?

aka 650 on one hit, then 10% or up to 65 dmg variance on the next hit.

example

Hit 1 650 dmg (assume cap)
Hit 2 585 dmg (cap - 10%)
etc...
Mon 16 Nov 2020 5:23 PM by Astaa
Variance should be based on skill points spent, it should diminish the more you spend on it. My ranger is at 50+17 atm and still sees huge variance. I really don't have the energy to test it because it would make absolutely no difference.

I agree that the overall damage was a bit high on a single crit shot then a follow up and the overall damage reduction of crit shot was fine. You haven't actually got rid of grouping archers, they just kill with a couple more shots. What you have done is nerfed solo and single presence in a group rangers (And all archers ofc).
Mon 16 Nov 2020 5:52 PM by Kwall0311
Astaa wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 5:23 PM
What you have done is nerfed solo and single presence in a group rangers (And all archers ofc).

Too true, between the damage reduction, 1-50% variance and partial snare nerf , solo scouting is much more of a pain now. Especially with no real viable melee option . And the archer assist groups are still going off. I understand this isnt a solo game, just pointing out some cause and effect.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 7:52 PM by Stoertebecker
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:59 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:51 PM
All classes have this variance and such a high variance isn`t somthing we had on the live servers, no matter which patchlevel.
380 or 650 critshot, 12x or 17x with lancer, variance is way over the top, not just for archers, my skald, thane, bd are all facing the same problems.

Variance is a multiplier ranging from 1 to 1.5. It would be nice if you don't present values against different targets / different conditions as a result of variance. Even if the 650 was at max variance roll it would not be possible to get a 380 against the same target, with 650 being the highest possible variance result the lowest possible would be around 430.

It WAS the same player within 10 minutes, rr6 cabbalist going to wipe at the Alb tower on ev, got him twice. So not much with wrong arrows or something like that.
Even if that wouldn`t be you think we ever had such a variance in damage on the live servers? Never ever. You can check that on Uthgard which is very close to 1.65 and you can check that on live. Your variance variables are way over the top.

Always this * all or nothing* strategy instead of going forward step by step, testing with 2%, than 4% etcetc, it gets annoying.

Variance worked always the way more skill points invested = less variance. That was the reason why ppl were trying to reach 51 in a spec line. The variance was tolerable.
There shouldnt be a tolerance of 25-30% damage if you have 39 + 11 + 7 (as an example).

And thats for all classes, not just archers.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:03 PM by DJ2000
Not really.

Variance was 0.75 to 1.25 at starting range and it turned to 1.00 to 1.50 at the other side of the spectrum.

Below the treshold (~75%) you increased the lower end of variance till 1.00 (skill<->Player Level), and above the treshold you increased the higher end of the variance to 1.50.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:27 PM by gruenesschaf
DJ2000 wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:03 PM
Not really.

Variance was 0.75 to 1.25 at starting range and it turned to 1.00 to 1.50 at the other side of the spectrum.

Below the treshold (~75%) you increased the lower end of variance till 1.00 (skill<->Player Level), and above the treshold you increased the higher end of the variance to 1.50.

That was a faulty explanation in some grab bag. There were/are no break points. There is no way to reduce (or increase) the variance.
However to explain where the 75% come from, the 1.0 to 1.5 multiplier I mentioned is also not exactly correct but simpler to think about, in actuality it's 0.75 - 1.25 based on weapon spec + 0 - 0.5 variance, meaning at 52 weapon spec against a level 50 enemy it's 1.25 - 1.75.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:30 PM by gruenesschaf
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 7:52 PM
Variance worked always the way more skill points invested = less variance. That was the reason why ppl were trying to reach 51 in a spec line. The variance was tolerable.
There shouldnt be a tolerance of 25-30% damage if you have 39 + 11 + 7 (as an example).

This just shows that you are conflating wishful thinking of what would make sense with how it actually is supposed to work. The way melee variance works makes no sense, what do you think why I disabled it in the first place? It was only activated again because for whatever reason a majority of the people that voted prefer a stupid mechanic.

The reason people were trying to reach 51 was to increase their min and max damage to the highest possible value but this doesn't touch variance. Aside from that 51 was wrong, it was always 52, the early tests found 51 but later, more extensive tests figured out it's 52.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:41 PM by Astaa
Ok, variance works different. Great.

So please tell me why speccing 50+SC+RR results in such huge variance.

Thanks.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:43 PM by gruenesschaf
Astaa wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:41 PM
Ok, variance works different. Great.

So please tell me why speccing 50+SC+RR results in such huge variance.

Thanks.

Because melee variance has nothing to do with spec. This is like asking please explain why speccing 50 + sc + rr results in no change in the amount of hitpoints you have, it just has nothing to do with it.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:46 PM by Astaa
We are not talking about melee, we are specifically talking about bow damage. The variance is huge, this isn't about I shot this guy for this damage and that guy for that damage, most of which will be explainable by enemy armour/racials/whether or not the are SC'd. It is just straight up broken.

...and I am boring enough that I will test it this weekend.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:48 PM by gruenesschaf
Astaa wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:46 PM
We are not talking about melee, we are specifically talking about bow damage. The variance is huge, this isn't about I shot this guy for this damage and that guy for that damage, most of which will be explainable by enemy armour/racials/whether or not the are SC'd. It is just straight up broken.

...and I am boring enough that I will test it this weekend.

Melee and bow damage is the same in terms of how damage is calculated.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:14 PM by Astaa
So...other than getting dex as high as you can, are you saying there is no difference for damage between speccing 50 bow and 40 bow or what? I am telling you now, from someone that has played a 2h (mostly LW) solo hero on and off for 20 years, this variance is off the scale in comparison.

And honestly, I don't mean to complain to you, overall this place is fantastic but please can you look into some of your decisions.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:33 PM by Stoertebecker
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:30 PM
... what do you think why I disabled it in the first place?

We`re talking about 25-35% variance in damage, not about 5-10%
Ppl voted for a variance, so did i ...but not that HIGH. Thats a lil difference, mhm?

We simply did not have such damage spikes, never. So it seems someone is thinking he`s smarter than all the devs on different servers before him.

From the ranger as example:
Crit-Multiplicator was reduced from 2.0 to 1.75 ( 12,5%)
Reduced overall bow-damage by 9%
The variance in melee and bow allows 25-35% damage spikes ...downwards.

My Ranger was just for fun during the event, i don`t play Hibernia.
But thats seems way over the top and isn`t going to reduce the main-problem. Stealthgroups and assisting.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:36 PM by gotwqqd
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:33 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:30 PM
... what do you think why I disabled it in the first place?

We`re talking about 25-35% variance in damage, not about 5-10%
Ppl voted for a variance, so did i ...but not that HIGH. Thats a lil difference, mhm?

We simply did not have such damage spikes, never. So it seems someone is thinking he`s smarter than all the devs on different servers before him.

From the ranger as example:
Crit-Multiplicator was reduced from 2.0 to 1.75 ( 12,5%)
Reduced overall bow-damage by 9%
The variance in melee and bow allows 25-35% damage spikes ...downwards.

My Ranger was just for fun during the event, i don`t play Hibernia.
But thats seems way over the top and isn`t going to reduce the main-problem. Stealthgroups and assisting.

Are you asking for variance within a set spec? i.e. 49Bow

Or between two bow specs?

If the latter it can be massive because it entails the lows of the 40!spec with highs of the 50
Tue 17 Nov 2020 12:12 AM by gruenesschaf
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:33 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:30 PM
... what do you think why I disabled it in the first place?
We simply did not have such damage spikes, never. So it seems someone is thinking he`s smarter than all the devs on different servers before him.

Feel free to log in to pendragon and test melee variance. With a bit of effort and some time you will be able to figure out that physical attacks have precisely 50 different values if all other conditions are the same (e. g. 70% condition weapons) and your setup choice allows high enough values to actually see 50 different values (e. g. fully buffed and/or a 2h at 70% cond).
Tue 17 Nov 2020 12:18 AM by Astaa
100% weapon condition (mp ofc)
350ish dex (399 druid buffed)
50 spec+11sc+7rr

Variance is all over the place. You can argue all you like but it is what it is.

As an aside, with a massive 9 in weapon, 2 in CD (rr7)., I hit as hard as a druid pet in melee, if I wanted to melee I would play a NS.

Ranger ranged choices'

Box fresh
50 bow, 48 PF, 34 stealth, 4 blades, 2 CD that's the best you can expect for RR6

At RR7 you can drop a little stealth for a handful of melee points...but why bother.

If you don't spec PF so that you can have some melee then you are basically left with a scout without zero immunity snare and engage.
Tue 17 Nov 2020 12:23 AM by gruenesschaf
Astaa wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:14 PM
So...other than getting dex as high as you can, are you saying there is no difference for damage between speccing 50 bow and 40 bow or what? I am telling you now, from someone that has played a 2h (mostly LW) solo hero on and off for 20 years, this variance is off the scale in comparison.

And honestly, I don't mean to complain to you, overall this place is fantastic but please can you look into some of your decisions.

What?

Against a level 50 opponent with 1 spec in your weapon you have a 0.75 - 1.25 multiplier, with 52 spec it's 1.25 - 1.75. The 0.5 range is the variance which is a always a range of 0.5 regardless of your spec.

But actually without the somewhat recent custom change here making high bow spec do somethign there would be almost no difference between 50+15 and 40+15 bow spec or even 37+15 bow spec (aside from the 2h dps bonus, in case of melee and 1h there still is literally no difference on unstyled damage and only an increase for style damage)
Tue 17 Nov 2020 12:36 AM by Astaa
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 12:23 AM
Astaa wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:14 PM
So...other than getting dex as high as you can, are you saying there is no difference for damage between speccing 50 bow and 40 bow or what? I am telling you now, from someone that has played a 2h (mostly LW) solo hero on and off for 20 years, this variance is off the scale in comparison.

And honestly, I don't mean to complain to you, overall this place is fantastic but please can you look into some of your decisions.

What?

Against a level 50 opponent with 1 spec in your weapon you have a 0.75 - 1.25 multiplier, with 52 spec it's 1.25 - 1.75. The 0.5 range is the variance which is a always a range of 0.5 regardless of your spec.

But actually without the somewhat recent custom change here making high bow spec do somethign there would be almost no difference between 50+15 and 40+15 bow spec or even 37+15 bow spec (aside from the 2h dps bonus, in case of melee and 1h there still is literally no difference on unstyled damage and only an increase for style damage)

Right, that is what I am asking.

Please be clear here...

Is there any point (since your latest changes) for a ranger to spec and set up as a ranged DPS class? Should we now all be going hybrid, seeing as bow damage is all over the place?

If you're saying the difference between quite literality sinking all your points into bow or spreading them out is negligible then what on earth is the point in spending all those points in archery (goes for all realms!) the same could be said for any melee (based) line?
Tue 17 Nov 2020 12:54 AM by Stoertebecker
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 12:12 AM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:33 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:30 PM
... what do you think why I disabled it in the first place?
We simply did not have such damage spikes, never. So it seems someone is thinking he`s smarter than all the devs on different servers before him.

Feel free to log in to pendragon and test melee variance. With a bit of effort and some time you will be able to figure out that physical attacks have precisely 50 different values if all other conditions are the same (e. g. 70% condition weapons) and your setup choice allows high enough values to actually see 50 different values (e. g. fully buffed and/or a 2h at 70% cond).

We`re talking about bow primarily. And i´ve played Ranger on live 2018, there was no variance up to 2xx with crit-shot.
And after that i`ve played on Uthgard for nearly a year. You that Uthgard is really close to 1.65 if it comes to settings, damagetables, variables etc.
There wasn`t such a huge variance. Thats a Phoenix-only thing.
Tue 17 Nov 2020 1:07 AM by Stoertebecker
gotwqqd wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:36 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:33 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:30 PM
... what do you think why I disabled it in the first place?

We`re talking about 25-35% variance in damage, not about 5-10%
Ppl voted for a variance, so did i ...but not that HIGH. Thats a lil difference, mhm?

We simply did not have such damage spikes, never. So it seems someone is thinking he`s smarter than all the devs on different servers before him.

From the ranger as example:
Crit-Multiplicator was reduced from 2.0 to 1.75 ( 12,5%)
Reduced overall bow-damage by 9%
The variance in melee and bow allows 25-35% damage spikes ...downwards.

My Ranger was just for fun during the event, i don`t play Hibernia.
But thats seems way over the top and isn`t going to reduce the main-problem. Stealthgroups and assisting.

Are you asking for variance within a set spec? i.e. 49Bow

Or between two bow specs?

If the latter it can be massive because it entails the lows of the 40!spec with highs of the 50

If i`m asking for something than for a lesser variance range.
Lets take my example from above 650 damage via Critshot, and the next Critshot on the same player with 430 damage what Gruenesschaf said.
220 damage variance, ~30%
Tue 17 Nov 2020 1:42 AM by gruenesschaf
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 1:07 AM
If i`m asking for something than for a lesser variance range.
Lets take my example from above 650 damage via Critshot, and the next Critshot on the same player with 430 damage what Gruenesschaf said.
220 damage variance, ~30%

Welcome to daoc.
http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?215598-Damage-Variance-Melee-vs-Magic
http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?22639-Melee-damage-variance

Go to:
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/daimar-base-weapon-defense-penetration
Download the log, open the 50+21 penetration log, get all lines where the offhand (sword) hits, see that it ranges from 63 to 88 (up to 98 for hits while an armor debuff was active, the last armor reduce proc was more than a minute before the 88 hit).
So that means there is a variance of at least 25, or rephrased, the highest observed hit is about 40% higher than the lowest or the lowest observed hit is 71% of the highest observed hit.
Tue 17 Nov 2020 1:56 AM by skipari
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 1:42 AM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 1:07 AM
If i`m asking for something than for a lesser variance range.
Lets take my example from above 650 damage via Critshot, and the next Critshot on the same player with 430 damage what Gruenesschaf said.
220 damage variance, ~30%

Welcome to daoc.
http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?215598-Damage-Variance-Melee-vs-Magic
http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?22639-Melee-damage-variance

Go to:
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/daimar-base-weapon-defense-penetration
Download the log, open the 50+21 penetration log, get all lines where the offhand (sword) hits, see that it ranges from 63 to 88 (up to 98 for hits while an armor debuff was active, the last armor reduce proc was more than a minute before the 88 hit).
So that means there is a variance of at least 25, or rephrased, the highest observed hit is about 40% higher than the lowest or the lowest observed hit is 71% of the highest observed hit.

Ah finally, i was shuffling the numbers around and never got really the 1.0 -1.5 modifier and always landed at ~1.4 max

While the archers seem unhappy about the variance, as mostly melee i can only say it is a charm to finally push out some okay dps every now and then. There is a ton of rng already ongoing, no idea why you hate this specific one so much
Tue 17 Nov 2020 2:39 AM by DJ2000
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:27 PM
That was a faulty explanation in some grab bag. There were/are no break points. There is no way to reduce (or increase) the variance.
However to explain where the 75% come from, the 1.0 to 1.5 multiplier I mentioned is also not exactly correct but simpler to think about, in actuality it's 0.75 - 1.25 based on weapon spec + 0 - 0.5 variance, meaning at 52 weapon spec against a level 50 enemy it's 1.25 - 1.75.
Thank you for clarification.
Stopped playing after the EU Servers shut down, so my knowledge/memories may be false/a bit dated.

btw.:
How long is the grace period till the final evaluation for the recent Archer Changes ?
Tue 17 Nov 2020 6:55 AM by Cadebrennus
Astaa wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 12:18 AM
100% weapon condition (mp ofc)
350ish dex (399 druid buffed)
50 spec+11sc+7rr

Variance is all over the place. You can argue all you like but it is what it is.

As an aside, with a massive 9 in weapon, 2 in CD (rr7)., I hit as hard as a druid pet in melee, if I wanted to melee I would play a NS.

Ranger ranged choices'

Box fresh
50 bow, 48 PF, 34 stealth, 4 blades, 2 CD that's the best you can expect for RR6

At RR7 you can drop a little stealth for a handful of melee points...but why bother.

If you don't spec PF so that you can have some melee then you are basically left with a scout without zero immunity snare and engage.

PF for melee is a lot of points for very little return. High CD and using a DA charge nets much better results for melee.
Tue 17 Nov 2020 11:16 PM by Parole
Perhaps if the dmg variance choice in the survey would have explained these HUGE variances more people would have voted differently. I'd recommend removing the variance. I'd like to retract my vote.
Wed 18 Nov 2020 12:27 AM by skipari
Parole wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 11:16 PM
Perhaps if the dmg variance choice in the survey would have explained these HUGE variances more people would have voted differently. I'd recommend removing the variance. I'd like to retract my vote.

The variance exists in daoc since ~2001, i would have assumed that this is some kind of basic knowledge.
Wed 18 Nov 2020 8:55 PM by The Skies Asunder
It's blowing my mind that people seem to not realize that the variance will look larger the higher your damage is. It's still the same value range, as a percent, as it is with your pitiful 50 damage melee weapons. It just happens to be more actual damage, because you're dealing more damage on the archery attacks as a whole.

As for speccing 50 archery vs lower amounts - You will still have higher damage with 50 archery. Your lowest value, and highest value will be higher at 50 spec, than at 40 spec. The variance will be the same percent range though. So the higher your damage output, the larger the actual difference in damage between them can be. I have been 35+X archery for like 18 months now, and I can assure you that people speccing 50 deal far more ranged damage than I do.

As for the variance itself, please keep it

Edit: changed wording of "bow" to "archery" for ease of reading
Wed 18 Nov 2020 9:14 PM by Lollie
I read that as 35 in xbow and thought "why the f*ck are you speccing 35 xbow"
Thu 19 Nov 2020 12:31 AM by Stoertebecker
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020 8:55 PM
As for speccing 50 archery vs lower amounts - You will still have higher damage with 50 archery. Your lowest value, and highest value will be higher at 50 spec, than at 40 spec.

You`re not able to see a difference in 40 and 50 archery, you can hit for 650+ or just 450 and the whole stuff between.

Archer 1: Oh, i hit an assassin for 680 dam
Archer 2: Well, i hit an assassin today for 720
Archer 1: What spec are you?
Archer2: 40 bow
Archer1: Wtf? I have 50 bow

Fkkd by the the rng
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:41 AM by The Skies Asunder
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 12:31 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020 8:55 PM
As for speccing 50 archery vs lower amounts - You will still have higher damage with 50 archery. Your lowest value, and highest value will be higher at 50 spec, than at 40 spec.

You`re not able to see a difference in 40 and 50 archery, you can hit for 650+ or just 450 and the whole stuff between.

Archer 1: Oh, i hit an assassin for 680 dam
Archer 2: Well, i hit an assassin today for 720
Archer 1: What spec are you?
Archer2: 40 bow
Archer1: Wtf? I have 50 bow

Fkkd by the the rng

You certainly can see a difference if you test it, and don't just base it on being mad when you roll a low number on the RNG. The scenario provided is irrelevant to your damage floor, and ceiling. Sure, a lot the time you will have overlapping numbers with someone who is a lower spec than you, but your lowest damage will be higher than theirs, and your highest damage will be higher than theirs.

The added RNG of physical attacks is not ruining your damage. Given as a DPS value, what mathematical difference is there, over a significant number of arrows, when the value is always 1.50 vs. when it is a random number between 1.25 and 1.75?
Thu 19 Nov 2020 6:49 PM by Stoertebecker
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:41 AM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 12:31 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020 8:55 PM
As for speccing 50 archery vs lower amounts - You will still have higher damage with 50 archery. Your lowest value, and highest value will be higher at 50 spec, than at 40 spec.

You`re not able to see a difference in 40 and 50 archery, you can hit for 650+ or just 450 and the whole stuff between.

Archer 1: Oh, i hit an assassin for 680 dam
Archer 2: Well, i hit an assassin today for 720
Archer 1: What spec are you?
Archer2: 40 bow
Archer1: Wtf? I have 50 bow

Fkkd by the the rng

You certainly can see a difference if you test it, and don't just base it on being mad when you roll a low number on the RNG. The scenario provided is irrelevant to your damage floor, and ceiling. Sure, a lot the time you will have overlapping numbers with someone who is a lower spec than you, but your lowest damage will be higher than theirs, and your highest damage will be higher than theirs.

The added RNG of physical attacks is not ruining your damage. Given as a DPS value, what mathematical difference is there, over a significant number of arrows, when the value is always 1.50 vs. when it is a random number between 1.25 and 1.75?

I test it each day under real circumstances, that is what counts, not 500 shots on a test dummy.
If you make 4 shots and you have bad luck your below 1.50, nothing you can count on. Not to forget that crit shot multiplier is nerfed bei 12,5%.

Sorry that i don`t thrust the maths and the calculations here if i shot a minstrel from behind (180° and he evaded with a chance of 9,5%, or a 99% blockchance on a shield wearer ( from a ~90° angle).

Some ppl should play more and shouldn`t stick their nose to deep into the paper daoc stuff.
Thu 19 Nov 2020 7:54 PM by The Skies Asunder
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 6:49 PM
I test it each day under real circumstances, that is what counts, not 500 shots on a test dummy.
If you make 4 shots and you have bad luck your below 1.50, nothing you can count on. Not to forget that crit shot multiplier is nerfed bei 12,5%.

Sorry that i don`t thrust the maths and the calculations here if i shot a minstrel from behind (180° and he evaded with a chance of 9,5%, or a 99% blockchance on a shield wearer ( from a ~90° angle).

Some ppl should play more and shouldn`t stick their nose to deep into the paper daoc stuff.

This is entirely conjecture. What if you have good luck and get 1.70+ four shots in a row? The crit shot nerf, and Ranger/Scout damage nerf have nothing to do with this portion of the discussion.

Have you logged any of your play time, in "Real DAoC"? Do you have video evidence of a minstrel evading an arrow from directly behind (The % chance is entirely irrelevant)? If so this is a bug, and should be looked at. Do you have video evidence of a 99% block chance from directly in the side arc? Was your target using engage?

I may be a filthy casual at this point in my gaming career, but I certainly do still play. I am sure some Albs/Mids have seen my ranger around.
Fri 20 Nov 2020 1:30 AM by Stoertebecker
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 7:54 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 6:49 PM
I test it each day under real circumstances, that is what counts, not 500 shots on a test dummy.
If you make 4 shots and you have bad luck your below 1.50, nothing you can count on. Not to forget that crit shot multiplier is nerfed bei 12,5%.

Sorry that i don`t thrust the maths and the calculations here if i shot a minstrel from behind (180° and he evaded with a chance of 9,5%, or a 99% blockchance on a shield wearer ( from a ~90° angle).

Some ppl should play more and shouldn`t stick their nose to deep into the paper daoc stuff.

This is entirely conjecture. What if you have good luck and get 1.70+ four shots in a row? The crit shot nerf, and Ranger/Scout damage nerf have nothing to do with this portion of the discussion.

I simply don`t have this luck, and if i have to choose a random number between 1.25 and 1.75 or 1.5 the whole time, i would simply take 1.5 the whole time

Have you logged any of your play time, in "Real DAoC"? Do you have video evidence of a minstrel evading an arrow from directly behind (The % chance is entirely irrelevant)? If so this is a bug, and should be looked at. Do you have video evidence of a 99% block chance from directly in the side arc? Was your target using engage?
I don`t wanna know how many hours i`ve spent on phoenix or daoc in general.

Sorry, no vids no screens. Not so important that i`m gonna waste my time with such stuff.
30 mins ago i shot a friar from an angle ~45°, evaded, chance 29,5%. As he was dead i noticed he was just blue, so much for my *luck*.
So it seems you have to believe what i wrote or not, i wouldn`t write it if it did not happen.

Evade chance on critshots out of stealth is bit strange. Never had that crap on any other server, but i`m pretty sure it is just my bad remembrance.
Same for blockchance, wasn`t it capped by 50 or 60 max in rvr to avoid this nearly 100% blockchance?

Going to do some test on Ywain this weekend. We`ll see how things are over there.
Fri 20 Nov 2020 7:27 AM by Sepplord
Stoertebecker wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 1:30 AM
Sorry, no vids no screens. Not so important that i`m gonna waste my time with such stuff.
[...]
Going to do some test on Ywain this weekend. We`ll see how things are over there.

Fri 20 Nov 2020 11:26 AM by Stoertebecker
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 7:27 AM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 1:30 AM
Sorry, no vids no screens. Not so important that i`m gonna waste my time with such stuff.
[...]
Going to do some test on Ywain this weekend. We`ll see how things are over there.



Schmunzel, das versteht dein Hirn wieder nicht, gell?
Sowas nennt man das angenehme mit dem nützlichen verbinden und ehemaligen Gildenkollegen einen Besuch abstatten.
Muß ja nicht jedesmal ein Buch über die Hintergründe schreiben...oops
Fri 20 Nov 2020 12:31 PM by Forlornhope
Stoertebecker wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 1:30 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 7:54 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 6:49 PM
I test it each day under real circumstances, that is what counts, not 500 shots on a test dummy.
If you make 4 shots and you have bad luck your below 1.50, nothing you can count on. Not to forget that crit shot multiplier is nerfed bei 12,5%.

Sorry that i don`t thrust the maths and the calculations here if i shot a minstrel from behind (180° and he evaded with a chance of 9,5%, or a 99% blockchance on a shield wearer ( from a ~90° angle).

Some ppl should play more and shouldn`t stick their nose to deep into the paper daoc stuff.

This is entirely conjecture. What if you have good luck and get 1.70+ four shots in a row? The crit shot nerf, and Ranger/Scout damage nerf have nothing to do with this portion of the discussion.

I simply don`t have this luck, and if i have to choose a random number between 1.25 and 1.75 or 1.5 the whole time, i would simply take 1.5 the whole time

Have you logged any of your play time, in "Real DAoC"? Do you have video evidence of a minstrel evading an arrow from directly behind (The % chance is entirely irrelevant)? If so this is a bug, and should be looked at. Do you have video evidence of a 99% block chance from directly in the side arc? Was your target using engage?
I don`t wanna know how many hours i`ve spent on phoenix or daoc in general.

Sorry, no vids no screens. Not so important that i`m gonna waste my time with such stuff.
30 mins ago i shot a friar from an angle ~45°, evaded, chance 29,5%. As he was dead i noticed he was just blue, so much for my *luck*.
So it seems you have to believe what i wrote or not, i wouldn`t write it if it did not happen.

Evade chance on critshots out of stealth is bit strange. Never had that crap on any other server, but i`m pretty sure it is just my bad remembrance.
Same for blockchance, wasn`t it capped by 50 or 60 max in rvr to avoid this nearly 100% blockchance?

Going to do some test on Ywain this weekend. We`ll see how things are over there.

Any time you see a 100% block chance that means the enemy engaged your shots. So the likely scenario would be something like this, opening with a crit shot then the target engages you giving them 100% chance to block your next shots. Live, as far as I know, has always had this mechanic as well. Even blue friars who are blue should have their level 45 dex/qui buff and if they have capped dex you'll still see higher evade numbers from them than most other targets.
Fri 20 Nov 2020 5:18 PM by Stoertebecker
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 12:31 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 1:30 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 7:54 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 6:49 PM
I test it each day under real circumstances, that is what counts, not 500 shots on a test dummy.
If you make 4 shots and you have bad luck your below 1.50, nothing you can count on. Not to forget that crit shot multiplier is nerfed bei 12,5%.

Sorry that i don`t thrust the maths and the calculations here if i shot a minstrel from behind (180° and he evaded with a chance of 9,5%, or a 99% blockchance on a shield wearer ( from a ~90° angle).

Some ppl should play more and shouldn`t stick their nose to deep into the paper daoc stuff.

This is entirely conjecture. What if you have good luck and get 1.70+ four shots in a row? The crit shot nerf, and Ranger/Scout damage nerf have nothing to do with this portion of the discussion.

I simply don`t have this luck, and if i have to choose a random number between 1.25 and 1.75 or 1.5 the whole time, i would simply take 1.5 the whole time

Have you logged any of your play time, in "Real DAoC"? Do you have video evidence of a minstrel evading an arrow from directly behind (The % chance is entirely irrelevant)? If so this is a bug, and should be looked at. Do you have video evidence of a 99% block chance from directly in the side arc? Was your target using engage?
I don`t wanna know how many hours i`ve spent on phoenix or daoc in general.

Sorry, no vids no screens. Not so important that i`m gonna waste my time with such stuff.
30 mins ago i shot a friar from an angle ~45°, evaded, chance 29,5%. As he was dead i noticed he was just blue, so much for my *luck*.
So it seems you have to believe what i wrote or not, i wouldn`t write it if it did not happen.

Evade chance on critshots out of stealth is bit strange. Never had that crap on any other server, but i`m pretty sure it is just my bad remembrance.
Same for blockchance, wasn`t it capped by 50 or 60 max in rvr to avoid this nearly 100% blockchance?

Going to do some test on Ywain this weekend. We`ll see how things are over there.

Any time you see a 100% block chance that means the enemy engaged your shots. So the likely scenario would be something like this, opening with a crit shot then the target engages you giving them 100% chance to block your next shots. Live, as far as I know, has always had this mechanic as well. Even blue friars who are blue should have their level 45 dex/qui buff and if they have capped dex you'll still see higher evade numbers from them than most other targets.

That may be. I usually don`t shot someone wearing a shield. Not sure about the blockrate of nearly 100%.

Archery from live isn`t comparable with Phoenix since Archery count as casts on live.
But so far...no variance, no matter what kind of shot on test dummies.
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:23 AM by Valaraukar
It will always be so high until a scout can hit my BD, fully buffed and with 100% armor, for 726 dmg crit shot and after 2 secs another 325+99 crit, while my LT doing 180 dmg has been nerfed to 6 secs lol.

I believe that the scout/ranger nerf has been one of the most useless thing ever seen on Daoc.
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:30 AM by Sepplord
As much as i agree that BD is overnerfed, mainly because of skewed perceptions...it doesn't add anything to the discussion about archers and how they need to be balanced
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM by Valaraukar
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:30 AM
As much as i agree that BD is overnerfed, mainly because of skewed perceptions...it doesn't add anything to the discussion about archers and how they need to be balanced

It adds a lot, because the BD has always been a stealther killer class and it has been overnerfed. It's a natural law, prey will always flourish when the predators are diminished.
The direct comparison is that an archer can land about 1k dmg in less than 3 secs (from 2k+ loc range) while they felt the urge to nerf an instant cast to 6 secs. SIX seconds. It is just ridicolous.
Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:16 PM by Stoertebecker
Valaraukar wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:30 AM
As much as i agree that BD is overnerfed, mainly because of skewed perceptions...it doesn't add anything to the discussion about archers and how they need to be balanced

It adds a lot, because the BD has always been a stealther killer class and it has been overnerfed. It's a natural law, prey will always flourish when the predators are diminished.
The direct comparison is that an archer can land about 1k dmg in less than 3 secs (from 2k+ loc range) while they felt the urge to nerf an instant cast to 6 secs. SIX seconds. It is just ridicolous.

Sorry, don`t just rely on 6s lifetap and 3 gray healers. Even with a 4s lifetap you wouldn`t be able to overheal the incoming ranger or scout damage.
The value of the healpets were nerfed right from server release, not sure about the kind of damage of the caster pets, i`m sure it was originally cold damage, not body.
Pets do less damage in rvr, lifetap from 4s to 6s. No spacing, no formations.
Yes, the BD is overnerfed, i don`t think it would have an influence on the number of archers on Phoenix, but an original BD would have an influence on the number of BDs, thats for sure. The overall rvr setting makes archers very attractive to play, thats all. Much Keep-warfare from hib + alb, taskzones where they can lure etcetc.
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:17 PM by Noashakra
Valaraukar wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:30 AM
As much as i agree that BD is overnerfed, mainly because of skewed perceptions...it doesn't add anything to the discussion about archers and how they need to be balanced

It adds a lot, because the BD has always been a stealther killer class and it has been overnerfed. It's a natural law, prey will always flourish when the predators are diminished.
The direct comparison is that an archer can land about 1k dmg in less than 3 secs (from 2k+ loc range) while they felt the urge to nerf an instant cast to 6 secs. SIX seconds. It is just ridicolous.



Go away with your ridiculous OP no skill class
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:21 PM by Valaraukar
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:17 PM
Valaraukar wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:30 AM
As much as i agree that BD is overnerfed, mainly because of skewed perceptions...it doesn't add anything to the discussion about archers and how they need to be balanced

It adds a lot, because the BD has always been a stealther killer class and it has been overnerfed. It's a natural law, prey will always flourish when the predators are diminished.
The direct comparison is that an archer can land about 1k dmg in less than 3 secs (from 2k+ loc range) while they felt the urge to nerf an instant cast to 6 secs. SIX seconds. It is just ridicolous.



Go away with your ridiculous OP no skill class


Lol my "ridicolous OP no skill class" will never be able to deal 1k+ dmg in 3 secs. And yours?
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:33 PM by Stoertebecker
Valaraukar wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:21 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:17 PM
Valaraukar wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:30 AM
As much as i agree that BD is overnerfed, mainly because of skewed perceptions...it doesn't add anything to the discussion about archers and how they need to be balanced

It adds a lot, because the BD has always been a stealther killer class and it has been overnerfed. It's a natural law, prey will always flourish when the predators are diminished.
The direct comparison is that an archer can land about 1k dmg in less than 3 secs (from 2k+ loc range) while they felt the urge to nerf an instant cast to 6 secs. SIX seconds. It is just ridicolous.



Go away with your ridiculous OP no skill class


Lol my "ridicolous OP no skill class" will never be able to deal 1k+ dmg in 3 secs. And yours?

Pretty sure he can survive a 1v1 situation vs a scout, but not with the usual * i need twf/mael* setting. Even a 1v1 vs Noashakra
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:56 PM by Valaraukar
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:33 PM
Pretty sure he can survive a 1v1 situation vs a scout, but not with the usual * i need twf/mael* setting. Even a 1v1 vs Noashakra

This is not the point of the discussion... the point is "archer population too high" > because they can deal 1k dmg in 3 secs
Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:17 PM by Tashkent
Valaraukar wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM
It adds a lot, because the BD has always been a stealther killer class and it has been overnerfed. It's a natural law, prey will always flourish when the predators are diminished.
The direct comparison is that an archer can land about 1k dmg in less than 3 secs (from 2k+ loc range) while they felt the urge to nerf an instant cast to 6 secs. SIX seconds. It is just ridicolous.
Where do you get the impression that a BD has always been a stealther killer and furthermore still has to be till the end of time? Also if an archer opens from a 2k distance what stops you from making a step out of range? Get more PD and toughness.
Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:41 PM by Valaraukar
Tashkent wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:17 PM
Valaraukar wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM
It adds a lot, because the BD has always been a stealther killer class and it has been overnerfed. It's a natural law, prey will always flourish when the predators are diminished.
The direct comparison is that an archer can land about 1k dmg in less than 3 secs (from 2k+ loc range) while they felt the urge to nerf an instant cast to 6 secs. SIX seconds. It is just ridicolous.
Where do you get the impression that a BD has always been a stealther killer and furthermore still has to be till the end of time? Also if an archer opens from a 2k distance what stops you from making a step out of range? Get more PD and toughness.

Step outside the range and then what? Wait for him to restealth and shoot again a crit? Nice move indeed. The only hope is to get soon enough in 1.5k range and interrupt him, while sending pets.
Again, the issue here is not the "moves" against archers, the issue is that this damage is too high, has no effective counters to it apart from running away, and if you get focused by 2 or more archers you'll die in less than 5 secs. Seems good to you? Ok fine then, let the archer population stay as it is.
Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:55 PM by Stoertebecker
Valaraukar wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:56 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:33 PM
Pretty sure he can survive a 1v1 situation vs a scout, but not with the usual * i need twf/mael* setting. Even a 1v1 vs Noashakra

This is not the point of the discussion... the point is "archer population too high" > because they can deal 1k dmg in 3 secs

You came up with the bd stuff, not me
An Archer should be a caster killer, not a Tank/Hybrid-Killer. So they should deal damage on a single target, and that is what they do, on Phoenix at least.
On live archers run into problems killing even a caster.
Tue 24 Nov 2020 10:03 AM by Noashakra
The fact that a mage with healer pets, instants that rupt at 1500 (and one that drains), and access to PD complains about archers is funny.
The BD is an abomination. We should remove the life drain part of the instant.
Tue 24 Nov 2020 11:40 AM by easytoremember
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 24 Nov 2020 10:03 AM
The fact that a mage with healer pets, instants that rupt at 1500 (and one that drains), and access to PD complains about archers is funny.
The BD is an abomination. We should remove the life drain part of the instant.
The same problem with necro having lifedrain on Deathsight's subspell
Tue 24 Nov 2020 12:21 PM by Noashakra
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 24 Nov 2020 11:40 AM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 24 Nov 2020 10:03 AM
The fact that a mage with healer pets, instants that rupt at 1500 (and one that drains), and access to PD complains about archers is funny.
The BD is an abomination. We should remove the life drain part of the instant.
The same problem with necro having lifedrain on Deathsight's subspell

Don't get me wrong, I would remove life drain from everything that is instant on mage or is uninteruptible (necro) or under MoC.
Keep it on normal spells though (and on the reaver spells).
Tue 24 Nov 2020 11:53 PM by Stoertebecker
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 24 Nov 2020 10:03 AM
The fact that a mage with healer pets, instants that rupt at 1500 (and one that drains), and access to PD complains about archers is funny.
The BD is an abomination. We should remove the life drain part of the instant.

Body debuff, str+dex debuff don`t rupt. Maybe on resist, not sure. They were rupting on Uth2 and live.

If you don`t know how to kill a bd with your NS watch Bellelle`s new vid.
Commander down in 3 blows, even before the healers start to heal, killed the bd inside the twf in seconds.

So wtf is wrong with you ppl, do you always want easymode, always a change to kill a target, even if it`s a tank in full plate armor.....

Always this crying from assassins which had always the highest solo kill ratio. Must be hard if they can`t kill 1-2 classes as easy as other classes.
Wed 25 Nov 2020 6:51 AM by keen
Assassin s will stop complaining if they can oneshot every class. Ridiculous, if you want to solo there is no way anyone would pick any visible char (pick whatever"op" class you think of): but play assassin and sit on 15-20k/h.
Stop whining about visible solo classes, they are not existent, but they are the ones getting nerfed cause assassins cry so hard that there is a class they dont auto win (hello champions). Assassins are op as fuck, everyone seems fine with it cause everyone got one.
Wed 25 Nov 2020 9:18 PM by Noashakra
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 24 Nov 2020 11:53 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 24 Nov 2020 10:03 AM
The fact that a mage with healer pets, instants that rupt at 1500 (and one that drains), and access to PD complains about archers is funny.
The BD is an abomination. We should remove the life drain part of the instant.

Body debuff, str+dex debuff don`t rupt. Maybe on resist, not sure. They were rupting on Uth2 and live.

If you don`t know how to kill a bd with your NS watch Bellelle`s new vid.
Commander down in 3 blows, even before the healers start to heal, killed the bd inside the twf in seconds.

So wtf is wrong with you ppl, do you always want easymode, always a change to kill a target, even if it`s a tank in full plate armor.....

Always this crying from assassins which had always the highest solo kill ratio. Must be hard if they can`t kill 1-2 classes as easy as other classes.

It's not an asn thing, life drain on instant/moc is cheese. Spaming the same key to win without moving is lame end of the story. Do you think it's fun for solo tanks too?
Asn have a good k/d ratio because they avoir the zerg and can chose their targets, not because the class is OP.

The problem is PD, not the commander. PD+LT, you can't do anything. IF the BD has TWF on top, you have no chance. It's not a question of skill lmao. If you can't outdps the drain, you can't do anything.

but play assassin and sit on 15-20k/h. Assassins are op as fuck, everyone seems fine with it cause everyone got one.

Rofl you show again and again you have no idea about what you speak. Like most of the assassin haters. Only the to players can do that.
Funny how the solo tanks don't think asn are OP, but the losers that don't even play solo all have the opinion that they are.

I killed Eriel rr11 on my warrior rr5. Muhhhhh Asn OP! Reeee ;D
Impossible to kill a RR11 tank on a rr5 asn but asn OP!!!!!!

All the people talking here about how the asn is OP are not solo player, go figure xD!
Wed 25 Nov 2020 10:27 PM by Stoertebecker
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 25 Nov 2020 9:18 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 24 Nov 2020 11:53 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 24 Nov 2020 10:03 AM
The fact that a mage with healer pets, instants that rupt at 1500 (and one that drains), and access to PD complains about archers is funny.
The BD is an abomination. We should remove the life drain part of the instant.

Body debuff, str+dex debuff don`t rupt. Maybe on resist, not sure. They were rupting on Uth2 and live.

If you don`t know how to kill a bd with your NS watch Bellelle`s new vid.
Commander down in 3 blows, even before the healers start to heal, killed the bd inside the twf in seconds.

So wtf is wrong with you ppl, do you always want easymode, always a change to kill a target, even if it`s a tank in full plate armor.....

Always this crying from assassins which had always the highest solo kill ratio. Must be hard if they can`t kill 1-2 classes as easy as other classes.

It's not an asn thing, life drain on instant/moc is cheese. Spaming the same key to win without moving is lame end of the story. Do you think it's fun for solo tanks too?
Asn have a good k/d ratio because they avoir the zerg and can chose their targets, not because the class is OP.

The problem is PD, not the commander. PD+LT, you can't do anything. IF the BD has TWF on top, you have no chance. It's not a question of skill lmao. If you can't outdps the drain, you can't do anything.

Usual Supp-Spec BD 47 supp, at least 22 dark for the blue body defuff (which leads to high resist rates).
How much damage may that be on 26 resist and variance today. Own experience...somewhat between 215 and 250 damage, maybe 275, each 6 seconds.
If you can`t outdamage 250-275 damage each 6s (after str/con debuff, disease and Viper 5 dots) i don`t know what to say.
It could get tough if the bd said fu twf and goes full pd and toughness instead, add purge 3 on it and you`ll have a 9l3 BD.
But as you said, an assassin can choose which targets to attack.

Still wondering why a rr5 assassin should jump a rr11 warrior? This isn`t the reality.
Usually you find assassins rr5 and below running tasks or ganking up in DF
Wed 25 Nov 2020 10:46 PM by Noashakra
Yeah because the BD doesn't have access to abla/heal procs!
With PD 9, you have 30% resist after your 26%, it gets your really close to 50% resist.

Still wondering why a rr5 assassin should jump a rr11 warrior? This isn`t the reality.
Nice strawman, I didn't say a rr5 asn should beat or jump a rr11 warrior, or you don't know how to read. But stupid answers are commun here, I should not really be surprised.

If asn were OP, they would beat tanks with a rr disadventage.
Reality check, a merc 3L can destroy an asn 9L+
My warrior 5L can go toe to toe with a RR11.
Fact is, if you think asn are OP, you should probably learn to play, or you just never solo and your opinion is moot.

Give me the name of your toon and show us your solo kills. Last time somebody tried to tell me he was "solo" on mid, he had 1 solo kill at the 7L8.

If I could kill assassins with my melee ranger with no shield, you have no excuses as a tank.
Thu 26 Nov 2020 5:57 AM by Runental
keen wrote:
Wed 25 Nov 2020 6:51 AM
Assassin s will stop complaining if they can oneshot every class. Ridiculous, if you want to solo there is no way anyone would pick any visible char (pick whatever"op" class you think of): but play assassin and sit on 15-20k/h.
Stop whining about visible solo classes, they are not existent, but they are the ones getting nerfed cause assassins cry so hard that there is a class they dont auto win (hello champions). Assassins are op as fuck, everyone seems fine with it cause everyone got one.

This.

Funny how Noashakra and other sins QQd months ago about SMs while they all got roflmoced until SM intercept was nerved to the ground.
Now allrdy nerved BD on the agenda.. Gogo!!
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:02 AM by Noashakra
Runental wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 5:57 AM
keen wrote:
Wed 25 Nov 2020 6:51 AM
Assassin s will stop complaining if they can oneshot every class. Ridiculous, if you want to solo there is no way anyone would pick any visible char (pick whatever"op" class you think of): but play assassin and sit on 15-20k/h.
Stop whining about visible solo classes, they are not existent, but they are the ones getting nerfed cause assassins cry so hard that there is a class they dont auto win (hello champions). Assassins are op as fuck, everyone seems fine with it cause everyone got one.

This.

Funny how Noashakra and other sins QQd months ago about SMs while they all got roflmoced until SM intercept was nerved to the ground.
Now allrdy nerved BD on the agenda.. Gogo!!

Funny how the SM was actually bugged, and it was a fix, where is the nerf you speak about?
Dude maybe you should play an actual class that asks you more than two buttons.

Also Funny how you say I want "assassin to one shot everything" but your class with fixed intercept + drain + moc for easy win was "nerfed to the ground!!"
"MuUuuH my cheated incept pet was giving me a perma moc, and all those whinners on forums asked the interecept rate to be fixed, now I hate assassins because they have a chance to kill me!"
It's always profjection with you people.

I see you are a guildy of wasa and it all make sense now

It's not only the BD btw, PD was not accessible to mages on live because it was too OP combined this with life drain.
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:17 AM by Stoertebecker
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 25 Nov 2020 10:46 PM
Yeah because the BD doesn't have access to abla/heal procs!
With PD 9, you have 30% resist after your 26%, it gets your really close to 50% resist.

You and i know that healing is reduced by 50% if the target is diseased
I don`t know why you turn it always the way that all works fine for the BD and not for the asn, and that the BD has always pd9. Thats 4l4 with nothing else, no purge, nothing.
And it does not help against str/con debuff, disease and Viper Dots

Still wondering why a rr5 assassin should jump a rr11 warrior? This isn`t the reality.
Nice strawman, I didn't say a rr5 asn should beat or jump a rr11 warrior, or you don't know how to read. But stupid answers are commun here, I should not really be surprised.

Beating an rr11warrior as an rr5 asn wasn`t even the question. The question was, why should the asn even try? Reading i one thing, understanding another.

Fact is, if you think asn are OP, you should probably learn to play, or you just never solo and your opinion is moot.

I don`t think they are op, but strong enough that removing livetap from instants or moc are not necessary, lil difference

So it turns from a discussion about archers into bd + assassins.
What next? Complaining about Spiritmasters?
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:17 AM by Noashakra
Was I the one who change the subject? First it's a BD whinner that came here and now the SM whinner.

Beating an rr11warrior as an rr5 asn wasn`t even the question. The question was, why should the asn even try? Reading i one thing, understanding another.

Again where did I speak about that. Where was my point about asssassins jumping on a rr warrior? So why do you bring this to the table?
You bring this without a reason? So why did you even write about it. What was your point? Yeah...

Galla heal with disease is still 120hp, it has 18% chance to proc, do you know how hard a NS hits? If I dual hit, it's 130+50. Each hand have a chance to make it proc.
Abla is also 150hp with 15% chance and is not affected by disease.
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:39 AM by gotwqqd
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:17 AM
Was I the one who change the subject? First it's a BD whinner that came here and now the SM whinner.

Beating an rr11warrior as an rr5 asn wasn`t even the question. The question was, why should the asn even try? Reading i one thing, understanding another.

Again where did I speak about that. Where was my point about asssassins jumping on a rr warrior? So why do you bring this to the table?
You bring this without a reason? So why did you even write about it. What was your point? Yeah...

Galla heal with disease is still 120hp, it has 18% chance to proc, do you know how hard a NS hits? If I dual hit, it's 130+50. Each hand have a chance to make it proc.
Abla is also 150hp with 15% chance and is not affected by disease.
And yet you unload on a target(with all these superb defensive talents) and run away before the stun wears off letting the poisons finish em off
Thu 26 Nov 2020 8:26 AM by Noashakra
gotwqqd wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:39 AM
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:17 AM
Was I the one who change the subject? First it's a BD whinner that came here and now the SM whinner.

Beating an rr11warrior as an rr5 asn wasn`t even the question. The question was, why should the asn even try? Reading i one thing, understanding another.

Again where did I speak about that. Where was my point about asssassins jumping on a rr warrior? So why do you bring this to the table?
You bring this without a reason? So why did you even write about it. What was your point? Yeah...

Galla heal with disease is still 120hp, it has 18% chance to proc, do you know how hard a NS hits? If I dual hit, it's 130+50. Each hand have a chance to make it proc.
Abla is also 150hp with 15% chance and is not affected by disease.
And yet you unload on a target(with all these superb defensive talents) and run away before the stun wears off letting the poisons finish em off

What is your point?
It's kind of funny you attack me here saying I want easy RP when I was against the last archery nerf, and I am also for a scout/ranger/hunter cac buffs xD
I want a balanced game, where everyone has challenges, and skill can help you overcome some situations. There are no solutions to a moc/drain or bugged intercept pet except vanish.
And I am the one who want to easy win? Don't make me laugh.


EDIT: I went to tani's video, he removes 32% hp of the BD in one swing (296 dmg in one swing with two hands and poison), so the BD wasn't buffed with potions, because he is under 1000hp. Great basis to use as an example about how BD is super weak. LMAO! And those people want to teach me to solo
proof :
https://ibb.co/42D98XG
Thu 26 Nov 2020 12:03 PM by Stoertebecker
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:17 AM
Was I the one who change the subject? First it's a BD whinner that came here and now the SM whinner.

Beating an rr11warrior as an rr5 asn wasn`t even the question. The question was, why should the asn even try? Reading i one thing, understanding another.

Again where did I speak about that. Where was my point about asssassins jumping on a rr warrior? So why do you bring this to the table?
You bring this without a reason? So why did you even write about it. What was your point? Yeah...

I killed Eriel rr11 on my warrior rr5. Muhhhhh Asn OP! Reeee ;D
Impossible to kill a RR11 tank on a rr5 asn but asn OP!!!!!!

Do you have dementia?

Galla heal with disease is still 120hp, it has 18% chance to proc, do you know how hard a NS hits? If I dual hit, it's 130+50. Each hand have a chance to make it proc.
Abla is also 150hp with 15% chance and is not affected by disease.

Myohmy, the poor NS with his Viper5, maybe DotProcs and Vanish if things getting worse against the op BD`s with Pd9, twf5 and mael5 with (all with rr5)
Cry me a river. Btw, all sarcasm you may find belongs to you.

Edit:
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 8:26 AM
EDIT: I went to tani's video, he removes 32% hp of the BD in one swing (296 dmg in one swing with two hands and poison), so the BD wasn't buffed with potions, because he is under 1000hp. Great basis to use as an example about how BD is super weak. LMAO! And those people want to teach me to solo
You know what happen if you ws/con debuff your target, right?
Thu 26 Nov 2020 12:12 PM by Noashakra
Do you have dementia?

Are you stupid? Because I really start to think you are. I didn't say the asn should jump or kill the warrior so why are you asking.

My point was a solo spec tank can kill 5L can kill a solo spec asn 11L, when the reverse is not true (unless the player is terrible, and god knows there are a lot here).
It disproves that the assassins are too strong like many people claim here. I am not asking for a nerf for tanks or buff for assassins. I was just pointing a fact.

What point were you trying to make, because your question made no sense in the context of my post. Quotting me doesn't explain/change anything.
The 5L assassins should not jump a rr11 tank because he will get rekt so yeah he should not do it. Again what was the point of you asking this question?
Thu 26 Nov 2020 6:54 PM by Taniquetil
Archer damage is fine..........

Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:17 PM by Stoertebecker
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 12:12 PM
...

Nough with this nonsense, you`re waisting my time. Cya on the battlefield.
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:36 PM by Noashakra
Stoertebecker wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:17 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 12:12 PM
...

Nough with this nonsense, you`re waisting my time. Cya on the battlefield.

If you can't answer about what was the point of your question, it's because you realized your question was stupid and made no sense regarding what I wrote
Yeah, better that you don't reply and dodge to answer something so simple!

I just said 5L tank = 11L asn, and 5L asn << 11L tank. End of the story. I didn't say it was wrong, good or anything. It was just a point to prove assassins are not OP. You asked this stupid question about why an asn 5L should jump a rr 11L. There is not relation to this question and my statements. That why I asked what was the point of your question. And you realized it.

And I am the one who is nonsensical? It's always projections with you people lol.

Go back on the battlefield leeching RPs with your bow.
Thu 26 Nov 2020 7:55 PM by Runental
What's wrong leeching RPs with a bow?
Thu 26 Nov 2020 8:52 PM by Valaraukar
Just to return to the point of the discussion, and as I've already said before.... I was not complaining about BD lt (and it's a FACT that BDs have been nerfed many times, both regarding pets and their own main feature which is the LT), I was comparing a 1k+ damage done by an archer in less than 3 secs to a LT which can be used once every 6 secs doing 200 dmg and healing for 160 hp (and you know, everyone can get AoM if you like, since you say that PD is OP) and that there is no counter to such damage done by 2k distance in such a small time, unless you have IP.
Thu 26 Nov 2020 9:36 PM by Noashakra
Valaraukar wrote:
Thu 26 Nov 2020 8:52 PM
Just to return to the point of the discussion, and as I've already said before.... I was not complaining about BD lt (and it's a FACT that BDs have been nerfed many times, both regarding pets and their own main feature which is the LT), I was comparing a 1k+ damage done by an archer in less than 3 secs to a LT which can be used once every 6 secs doing 200 dmg and healing for 160 hp (and you know, everyone can get AoM if you like, since you say that PD is OP) and that there is no counter to such damage done by 2k distance in such a small time, unless you have IP.

Because PD is not the problem in itself. it's the combination with LT effects.
The day the other class can have AoM and life drain with their arrows/attacks, we can talk.
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