Celerity / charge / debuff resist

I want to talk about a subject that interests me.
First of all, thank you for this free shard.

TANK :

There is a lot of caster and very little tank.

I hardly ever play on Mid and yet I pity them.

No charge, debuff resist 50%
Berseker or savage or WArrior must be hard.

I have 3 ideas.

Why big tanks are so weak (they need + 10% resist all magic HERO / WARRIOR / ARMSMAN)

Why not put the charge for the Off TANK

Why not slightly reduce the debuff resist 50%

This is only my little opinion

And solo for me Celerity on paladin and WArden

Wed 28 Oct 2020 7:44 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Devs believe that Charge was added as a counter to Speed Warp, and that Bodyguard & Brittle Guards are the counter to Charge, and as they have no intention of introducing those three abilities they have taken a hard "no Charge" stance.

Also:

gruenesschaf wrote: Last November we internally decided to announce some major change regarding the future of the server once the eu pt population drops below a certain threshold on a non holiday Sunday. Aside from bug fixes there won't be anymore gameplay changes until then.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:30 PM by

gruenesschaf

With charge it's pretty much that it makes bg or speedwarp required to counter the target not being peelable for the duration of charge, however, at least bg is more effective due to not having a cooldown and kind of requires banelord ml 1/2 as the answer.
The alternative to countering with bg would be with speedwarp, however, this is less effective / solid and would depend on being able to drag the charge tanks out of range.

Regardless of adding any of the imo required counter options, adding charge right now while everyone has 9 second slam would pretty much remove all non charge light tanks and non full tanks from group consideration and at least for the hero it will be reevaluated if the full tank ras are worth it compared to another charge 5. Even with the reduced slam duration for non full tanks it would still remove all hybrids without access to it from consideration with the odd vw maybe being still getting invited by accident. In case of mid you'll have pretty huge QQ either way as you either kill the svg by not giving it to him or you get qq from everyone else that svg has charge.
The easy way out here would be what live did: just give it light tanks for free and allow certain hybrids to spec it as RA, thereby solving making hybrids obsolete. The counter argument is that now everyone has it, but the counter to that again would be that everyone would play charge tanks anyways and not their hybrids. Pretty much just meh.

It's somewhat simpler to just not go there.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 11:30 PM by gromet12

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:30 PM
With charge it's pretty much that it makes bg or speedwarp required to counter the target not being peelable for the duration of charge, however, at least bg is more effective due to not having a cooldown and kind of requires banelord ml 1/2 as the answer.
The alternative to countering with bg would be with speedwarp, however, this is less effective / solid and would depend on being able to drag the charge tanks out of range.

Regardless of adding any of the imo required counter options, adding charge right now while everyone has 9 second slam would pretty much remove all non charge light tanks and non full tanks from group consideration and at least for the hero it will be reevaluated if the full tank ras are worth it compared to another charge 5. Even with the reduced slam duration for non full tanks it would still remove all hybrids without access to it from consideration with the odd vw maybe being still getting invited by accident. In case of mid you'll have pretty huge QQ either way as you either kill the svg by not giving it to him or you get qq from everyone else that svg has charge.
The easy way out here would be what live did: just give it light tanks for free and allow certain hybrids to spec it as RA, thereby solving making hybrids obsolete. The counter argument is that now everyone has it, but the counter to that again would be that everyone would play charge tanks anyways and not their hybrids. Pretty much just meh.

It's somewhat simpler to just not go there.

Why not just remove the penalty against DW for large tanks only for large shields. During a charge a heavy tank can help by being a blocker during the short timer keeping a caster/healer up. To me hybrids are too strong here without any compensation to the heavy/light tanks, the style changes were going to do the same thing. Give the light tanks reduced stuns on shield styles and then charge as an ra. The heavies get shield styles and 9 sec stun on slam while large shields don't suffer any penalties to DW (make them defensive tanks if they want it)

Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:20 AM by Sepplord

melee needs help in the metascale on this server...but i agree that charge would not be a good solution and open a whole box of new issues

Thu 29 Oct 2020 9:04 AM by inoeth

whats the counter to debuff trains?
is it too op to have a 30s charge on a 15 min timer to counter a caster setup every now and then?
i find it pretty hard to unterstand this tbh

Thu 29 Oct 2020 9:18 AM by gotwqqd

Why does everything added require some counter?
Charge would already be a counter to the massive damage coupled with the multiple cc most casters have.

Counter to charge.....turn tail and run

Thu 29 Oct 2020 2:48 PM by Valaraukar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:30 PM
With charge it's pretty much that it makes bg or speedwarp required to counter the target not being peelable for the duration of charge, however, at least bg is more effective due to not having a cooldown and kind of requires banelord ml 1/2 as the answer.
The alternative to countering with bg would be with speedwarp, however, this is less effective / solid and would depend on being able to drag the charge tanks out of range.

Regardless of adding any of the imo required counter options, adding charge right now while everyone has 9 second slam would pretty much remove all non charge light tanks and non full tanks from group consideration and at least for the hero it will be reevaluated if the full tank ras are worth it compared to another charge 5. Even with the reduced slam duration for non full tanks it would still remove all hybrids without access to it from consideration with the odd vw maybe being still getting invited by accident. In case of mid you'll have pretty huge QQ either way as you either kill the svg by not giving it to him or you get qq from everyone else that svg has charge.
The easy way out here would be what live did: just give it light tanks for free and allow certain hybrids to spec it as RA, thereby solving making hybrids obsolete. The counter argument is that now everyone has it, but the counter to that again would be that everyone would play charge tanks anyways and not their hybrids. Pretty much just meh.

It's somewhat simpler to just not go there.

It's somewhat simpler to just leave the infinte kite mechanics for casters

With perma end regen it is impossible to get close enough to kiting casters, if they are just decent at it. And with the magic debuff focus any tank that tries to get close is taken down in 3 or maybe 4 secs, no healing possible. So if you say that there is no counter (or a very difficult one) to charge, tell us what is the counter to this. You even nerfed the most efficient Mid interrupter (BD) so the other realms casters are completely free to kite, cast, kite and go on forever like this. A fight against a decent Hib or Alb caster setup means going after them for about an entire Map Zone, hoping they will get stuck somewhere or take some aggro mobs on the path. It's getting ridiculous, the Mid population is at its lowest and you are taking absolutely no action to solve this issue, because "it's somewhat simpler to just not go there". Ok fine, so where are we going? Are we going to stay like this forever?

Thu 29 Oct 2020 3:29 PM by

gruenesschaf

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 9:04 AM
whats the counter to debuff trains?
is it too op to have a 30s charge on a 15 min timer to counter a caster setup every now and then?
i find it pretty hard to unterstand this tbh

A single 30s charge tank would be fine, maybe even 2. However, if it were really 30 seconds you'd see the meta shift to something like 3 or maybe even 4 bm groups that against caster groups will just all charge at the start, ideally with atog, hoping to blab 2 targets in that window and there is pretty much nothing that can be done against them in those 30 seconds without any of the counters.
It would basically degenerate into SB / BoF / DD vs charge and hoping to survive 3 or 4 tanks wailing at a single target for 30 seconds.

Just as an aside, the charge variant in line with the other RAs would be the 15 second one where the timer gets reduced with higher charge levels. Normally timers don't really matter, in my opinion at least, if they are above a certain duration that in most circumstances means usable only once per fight. This charge variant, at least if implemented 1:1, however means a 90 second cooldown at charge 5 which usually means usable more than once per fight.

gotwqqd wrote: Counter to charge.....turn tail and run

That would assume using charge wrong, aka using charge without properly breaking speed. This counter is only reliably possible with speedwarp.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 4:00 PM by Bradekes

So why not implement charge slowly.. make it start off at 5seconds of charge then gradually raise it by 5 seconds until you see the negative effects you're thinking will happen? Any amount is better than none IMO. I do see tanks struggling in bg fights a lot. Most have a hard time getting grouped..

As far as savages and how to handle their predicament, give them some ability too just not charge.. maybe a passive to gaining more hp from heals or something comparable to keep them in the action.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 4:29 PM by Lollie

Could make charge break when you attack your target, this makes it a gap closer and you'll have to pick your target carefully first.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:09 PM by Valaraukar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 3:29 PM
...
It would basically degenerate into SB / BoF / DD vs charge and hoping to survive 3 or 4 tanks wailing at a single target for 30 seconds.
...

And where is the difference to now, when you just hope to survive 3 or 4 casters (with debuff) focused on you, while trying to get to them and maybe interrupt them, considering MoC and Quickcast? It is just DIs, Renewal, Instant heals vs caster focus debuff train. Totally the same damn thing, but when it comes to melees is not right

:

Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:49 PM by

gruenesschaf

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:09 PM
And where is the difference to now, when you just hope to survive 3 or 4 casters (with debuff) focused on you, while trying to get to them and maybe interrupt them, considering MoC and Quickcast? It is just DIs, Renewal, Instant heals vs caster focus debuff train. Totally the same damn thing, but when it comes to melees is not right :

The difference is that you can interrupt them, or in case of moc they suffer a damage penalty whereas you cannot interrupt a charge tank and charge does not have a damage penalty.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:05 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:09 PM
And where is the difference to now, when you just hope to survive 3 or 4 casters (with debuff) focused on you, while trying to get to them and maybe interrupt them, considering MoC and Quickcast? It is just DIs, Renewal, Instant heals vs caster focus debuff train. Totally the same damn thing, but when it comes to melees is not right :

Get better support who understand that they don't have to heal if the enemy can't cast, or move out of their range and force them to chase you instead of blind mongo pushing them, or split your DPS. All of these are options, whereas the only option against Charge is healing or guarding against multiple dual-wielding tanks with half block rate.

EDIT:
75% possible block rate.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:11 PM by skipari

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:05 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:09 PM
And where is the difference to now, when you just hope to survive 3 or 4 casters (with debuff) focused on you, while trying to get to them and maybe interrupt them, considering MoC and Quickcast? It is just DIs, Renewal, Instant heals vs caster focus debuff train. Totally the same damn thing, but when it comes to melees is not right :

Get better support who understand that they don't have to heal if the enemy can't cast, or move out of their range and force them to chase you instead of blind mongo pushing them, or split your DPS. All of these are options, whereas the only option against Charge is healing or guarding against multiple dual-wielding tanks with half block rate.

just a small correction:
the block rate reduction through dual wield is 1/4 (instead 1/2 live) here. see patchnotes from 2018-10-04 Thursday

Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:15 PM by ExcretusMaximus

skipari wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:11 PM
just a small correction:
the block rate reduction through dual wield is 1/4 (instead 1/2 live) here. see patchnotes from 2018-10-04 Thursday

Thanks, I'll fix it.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:19 PM by Valaraukar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:49 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:09 PM
And where is the difference to now, when you just hope to survive 3 or 4 casters (with debuff) focused on you, while trying to get to them and maybe interrupt them, considering MoC and Quickcast? It is just DIs, Renewal, Instant heals vs caster focus debuff train. Totally the same damn thing, but when it comes to melees is not right :

The difference is that you can interrupt them, or in case of moc they suffer a damage penalty whereas you cannot interrupt a charge tank and charge does not have a damage penalty.

Interrupting them will just have them kite back a little bit and try again, suffering nothing since the tanks will not be on them yet and the interrupter (e.g. Healers with Amnesia) lose speed to cast. As I've said before every time there's a fight with a decent caster setup you need to chase them for an entire zone map, because they'll never go out of endurance thanks to permasprint, while trying to interrupt them at the right time to avoid being killed one by one by a focus train that in 5 secs can shoot down a 3k hp troll, who in turn can be easily snared, rooted (even by blue shrooms lol), or stunned by their peeler that has no need to run as hell trying to catch the enemy tanks. It's a win-win situation for the casters: if the peelers could get the enemy tanks they need just to burn them one by one, if he couldn't they will simple kite back and try again after a few seconds until they got the advantage. It's frustrating, and this is the mechanics that EVERY caster setup group follow, making every fight a mere repetition where the caster group kites and the melee group tries to catch them, in a clearly unfavorable situation. And the result is equally clear: the caster setup is the FOTM (since many months I'd say) and, considering the caster classes balance, Mid is suffering like hell because you made melee classes so underperforming compared to casters (and in BGs the situation is still worse).

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:05 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 5:09 PM
And where is the difference to now, when you just hope to survive 3 or 4 casters (with debuff) focused on you, while trying to get to them and maybe interrupt them, considering MoC and Quickcast? It is just DIs, Renewal, Instant heals vs caster focus debuff train. Totally the same damn thing, but when it comes to melees is not right :

Get better support who understand that they don't have to heal if the enemy can't cast, or move out of their range and force them to chase you instead of blind mongo pushing them, or split your DPS. All of these are options, whereas the only option against Charge is healing or guarding against multiple dual-wielding tanks with half block rate.

EDIT:
75% possible block rate.

See my response to Gruenes about interrupting: it just makes them kite back again. As for "move out of their range"...lol and then? We'll watch each other from 2500 loc and send kisses? Obviously a melee group will do everything it can to go in close combat with the enemy, what's the point to kite them? Sooner or later you will need to turn and push them anyway "like blind mongo"... You can try to split your DPS but in this case your target will never go down (heals, AF spec buff, many debuffs to melee damage that are not present for spell damage and so on).

Ok so charge is not the solution? Fine, I trust you, but a solution must be found anyway because this situation won't stand long. Dark age of Castalot has created the pop unbalance and will get worse and worse if a doable solution will not be found soon.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:30 PM by

gruenesschaf

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:19 PM
Ok so charge is not the solution? Fine, I trust you, but a solution must be found anyway because this situation won't stand long. Dark age of Castalot has created the pop unbalance and will get worse and worse if a doable solution will not be found soon.

In general the gap between melee and caster groups currently is not that big and in zerg fights caster / ranged will always be more popular which is the vast majority of the pop.

Charge as it was in any of the iterations by itself would just flip it in group fights from the current slightly caster favoring meta to a melee favoring meta.

Alternatives could happen in many ways

For example, reducing the damage spikes via either or both of these:
1) Reducing the effectiveness of the resist debuff (ie not applying the 25% bonus, exact same result would be achieved by keeping the bonus and reducing the delve to 40)
2) A general player mentality shift that sees aom as the most important ra after det, maybe with a nudge here that increases it from 20% to 30% at level 9. PD could also be raised back to its original level again as it was reduced to aom levels to have parity there. Due to the reliance on short deadly burst windows of caster groups the change would still have a melee favoring end effect while at the same time reducing all damage in two ways: people spec it and hence take less damage but also people spec it and hence deal less damage as it's not invested in offensive ras.

Another option specifically aimed at kiting forever would be to reevaluate the current endurance situation, a given is that speed 6 must remain attainable, hence something like this would be a potential compromise: increase out of combat endurance regen by 1 for everyone and remove tireless from casters leaving them as they are now while out of combat but at -1 endurance while in combat and sprinting. Problem is that this would mainly only affect current alb caster groups and hibs to a lesser extent (by forcing the bard to play end more often than now).

A nice experiment would also have been the reduction from 60% melee snare to 40% melee snare.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 9:15 PM by tommccartney

Counters to Charge light tank(s)

Heals
Instant heals
MoC
Gaurd
SoS
Stat debuff + attack speed debuffs
Physical defence
Divine intervention
Bladeturn
Pulsing bladeturn
Soldier’s Barricade
Dashing defence
Kiting and forcing over extend & focus caster MA train

Perhaps remove the speed boost and also give charge a visible spell effect when it gets used ? That way it’s easy to identify when someone pops it.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 9:44 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Everyone likes to cry about caster groups, but not a single 8man runs them unless they're Albs and already rr8+. That's because they're fodder until then, even with 6 pets.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:05 PM by Lokkjim

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:30 PM
In general the gap between melee and caster groups currently is not that big and in zerg fights caster / ranged will always be more popular which is the vast majority of the pop.

Charge as it was in any of the iterations by itself would just flip it in group fights from the current slightly caster favoring meta to a melee favoring meta.

Alternatives could happen in many ways

For example, reducing the damage spikes via either or both of these:
1) Reducing the effectiveness of the resist debuff (ie not applying the 25% bonus, exact same result would be achieved by keeping the bonus and reducing the delve to 40)
2) A general player mentality shift that sees aom as the most important ra after det, maybe with a nudge here that increases it from 20% to 30% at level 9. PD could also be raised back to its original level again as it was reduced to aom levels to have parity there. Due to the reliance on short deadly burst windows of caster groups the change would still have a melee favoring end effect while at the same time reducing all damage in two ways: people spec it and hence take less damage but also people spec it and hence deal less damage as it's not invested in offensive ras.

Another option specifically aimed at kiting forever would be to reevaluate the current endurance situation, a given is that speed 6 must remain attainable, hence something like this would be a potential compromise: increase out of combat endurance regen by 1 for everyone and remove tireless from casters leaving them as they are now while out of combat but at -1 endurance while in combat and sprinting. Problem is that this would mainly only affect current alb caster groups and hibs to a lesser extent (by forcing the bard to play end more often than now).

A nice experiment would also have been the reduction from 60% melee snare to 40% melee snare.

I'd be totally on board with option number 2. As AoM stands right now, it seems too cost-intensive for a small reduction in magic damage (34 points for 20%).

I think PD should stay where it's at though and bump it if it becomes necessary.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:18 PM by byron

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:05 PM
I'd be totally on board with option number 2. As AoM stands right now, it seems too cost-intensive for a small reduction in magic damage (34 points for 20%).

I think PD should stay where it's at though and bump it if it becomes necessary.

You are cutting out new players in this way. So a light tank needs to have det9, purge2/3 and Aom9 (improved) to have some chances. Balancing by RAs helps only high rank players, we would need class balance.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:59 PM by IdiamVonGawaine

raglour00 wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 6:51 PM
TANK :

You spelled "fodder" wrong.

raglour00 wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 6:51 PM
There is a lot of caster and very little tank.

Why play a melee character that has to actually close with an enemy to hit them when you can play a caster and wreck #%^& from 1500 units away? True melee chars don't have speed, buffs, heals, and no method of crowd control outside of shield slam or melee stuns. Meanwhile, a sorc has 2 methods of long range crowd control, speed, and lifetap in their base spell lines, and can spec to get pets as well. Not to mention the fact that melee dps is absolute hot garbage compared to casted damage, and melee damage over time DECREASES with speed, rather than increases as do the caster classes.

raglour00 wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 6:51 PM
Why big tanks are so weak ...

Because the game designers viewed melee as little more than fodder for the ranged casters, and the fact the devs on Phoenix actually planned on implementing the hot garbage, and blatantly anti-melee, RA's from live demonstrates that their view is little different.

Just look at the crowd control in this game....
1. Mez - equal impact to all
2. Stun - equal impact to all
3. Root - eliminates mobility and the ability of melee to use their primary damage method with no such consequence for casting characters
4. Snare - same as root
5. Disease - another mobility attack that impacts melee at a far greater rate than casters

SIXTY PERCENT of the crowd control in this game is designed to impact melee at a greater rate than every other class. Tells you all you ever needed to know about the role of melee. Instead of the ridiculous CC options they created, they COULD have simply made TANKS the method of crowd control instead, but nooooooo!!!! Don't let the tank acually bodyguard and defend a caster or supporter with their shield EFFECTIVELY! Don't give the tanks baseline snares they can actually use to peel! Let's create some stupid crap, like mesmerize, that makes everyone useless and can be casted from range instead! Great idea! So much fun!

Only a masochist mains a tank in RvR, unless they're supported by a group of casters, of course...

Fri 30 Oct 2020 6:19 AM by Sepplord

IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:59 PM
Don't let the tank acually bodyguard and defend a caster or supporter with their shield EFFECTIVELY! Don't give the tanks baseline snares they can actually use to peel!

Yeah, bodyguard and baseline peels would surely help melee....

uh wait...no, that would do the opposite

Fri 30 Oct 2020 11:36 AM by Lokkjim

byron wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:18 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 10:05 PM
I'd be totally on board with option number 2. As AoM stands right now, it seems too cost-intensive for a small reduction in magic damage (34 points for 20%).

I think PD should stay where it's at though and bump it if it becomes necessary.

You are cutting out new players in this way. So a light tank needs to have det9, purge2/3 and Aom9 (improved) to have some chances. Balancing by RAs helps only high rank players, we would need class balance.

I know this thread became mostly about light tanks, but there are other classes that would like to see AoM be worth a damn. I'd personally like the option of choosing AoM instead of it being one of the last options like it is now.

Fri 30 Oct 2020 2:46 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Oct 2020 6:19 AM
IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:59 PM
Don't let the tank acually bodyguard and defend a caster or supporter with their shield EFFECTIVELY! Don't give the tanks baseline snares they can actually use to peel!

Yeah, bodyguard and baseline peels would surely help melee....

uh wait...no, that would do the opposite

Right?

How is he complaining about too much CC, specifically targeting roots and snares, and then demanding more access to ... snares?

WHAT?!