Style Changes

Started 15 Oct 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
With the vote clearly in favor of making the weapon lines usable quite a few changes would be required, there were basically two choices
1) Go from the current 1.65 styles and add the required elements to each line as needed
2) Take a more recent set of styles as the starting point where those changes have already been done

We now went with the second option for a couple reasons
1) The common sense / required changes to make each weapon line at least somewhat viable (meaning a side or rear snare in 8v8 for example) are already in
2) Some new toys that make stuff a bit more interesting
3) Chains have already been reduced to usually 2 with a handful 3 part chains
4) Icons / requirements indicator will match the style again

Timeline
The update is planned for Monday.
/respec all will become free for a while
The char planner has already been updated to reflect the new styles, please note that this is still a work in progress and it may contain some weirdness or not reflect some changes.
There will be a couple issues regarding effects and especially tooltips, those should be resolved rather quickly for the most part though. Please note that due to a technical limitation styles that have more than one effect will only show one and it'll be random (determined at server start) which one will show, it will take a while to resolve the technical limitation here. In total this should affect only about 20ish styles (out of about 1300). The char planner will always show all effects.

As for the new toys, there were a total of 6 new concepts, one of them was discarded for a simpler implementation:
The discarded one first: your damage dealt against this target is increased by x will be a your damage is increased by x, this was at most 5% and for a simpler implementation this will become a simple self melee dps buff (like svg dps self buff)

Damage reflect: Will reduce the damage by the listed % and reflect that amount back at the attacker, your damage taken message will include the damage before the reduction by reflection. Example with 100 damage attack and 25% reflect: You are hit by xy for 100 damage! You reflect 25 damage back at xy!
The actual / only usage here is in a skald hammer style with a 5 second 25% damage reflect for the group.

Melee crit chance buff: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is a 25% crit group buff for 5 seconds in the same hammer style that also has the damage reflect.

Armor effectiveness debuff: Acts similar to an af debuff, actual usage is at most 5% which thanks to variance makes this not noticable.

Heal effectiveness buff / debuff: Should be rather self explanatory, actual usage is a warden style with a 50% heal effectiveness buff and a target 50% heal effectiveness debuff as follow up.

Effect Removal: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is for a specific warden style combo where one style does low damage but debuffs the target and another style does very high damage but removes this debuff from the target with the opener for both giving you a weapon skill buff which is also removed by this style.

Changes
Changes to the new styles
Aside from omitting the shield line there were only 2 changes done to the styles so far:
The ranger frontal root style in cd is only a 40% snare
Stealth opener had their scaling slightly reduced to account for con debuff hitting before it, the scaling is still higher than what it is currently

Changes to existing styles:
The Scout only shield style Stop! has been reduced from 14 seconds to 10

Changes to damage tables:
Thane sword and axe have been raised from 18 to 19 to match hammer, this is the only case where a class had different damage table values for their lines.

Future Changes
Just like with NF RAs, this now represents a starting point for further adjustments.
The biggest candidate here is the warden 50% abs debuff and the warden 50% heal effectiveness debuff, aside from those two all effects are rather minor and/or very short in duration. Also please welcome our new scythe wielding overlords https://www.ignboards.com/threads/grasping-roots.250248012/
The damage delves, especially for the vw side follow up, will also be monitored closely.

A couple important points:
With the new styles pretty much all melee snares are now only 40% instead of 60% and pretty much all anytime snares have been removed.
Asp no longer has an increased melee range, it's now a normal anytimer detaunt.
All styles now use the "correct" style damage formula as we have the required values for the new styles, that means you will no longer see the growth rate. In order to make comparing the different styles easier, the char builder will include spec 65 and spec 74 as reference points, e. g. if one styles shows a 222 at spec 74 and another shows 350 then the 350 one does more damage.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:02 PM by The Skies Asunder
Updating and testing them is fine. If it turns out to be an actual balance problem they can adjust accordingly, or simply revert the changes.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:02 PM by Drunkstains
If this happens I am 99% sure I will be quitting. These are terrible you are just following the foot steps of live and making all the classes the same. The unique feeling of each class is what makes this game great. Just because terrible players are crying they dont have everything their counter part does doesnt mean we should cater to it.

The survey asked if we wanted style lines to be competitive, not if we want to redo everything. Yes make the terrible style lines better, not change everything. This is the worst thing Ive seen since taking /title away.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:03 PM by jonl
you've given one of the strongest hib classes a 50% abs debuff for 20 seconds? well done

edit: and a 50% heal debuff + buff, well done
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:05 PM by Kappu
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 9:29 PM
Changes to existing styles:
The Scout only shield style Stop! has been reduced from 14 seconds to 10

This wasn't the issue....
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:11 PM by Kappu
Where are these changes on the planner I'm not seeing them...
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:14 PM by Ormilig
Drunkstains wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:02 PM
... The unique feeling of each class is what makes this game great. ...

By unique you mean beeing able to choose the one spec line thats not completly useless like for example Midgards Axe Line or Hibernias Blunt line?
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:17 PM by zamajoo
Can anyone translate this ? this post is about as clear as mud.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:26 PM by Tharlin
Does that mean friar is getting his heal styles too?
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:27 PM by exveer
Holy crap mercs get back and side snares now

So does zerks and bms

know why? their style kits are basically the same >.<

Boring. Abandon changes pls, this is a step in the wrong direction. People voted to have bad lines made good, not have all lines look the same.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:34 PM by DarkDavion
exveer wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:27 PM
Holy crap mercs get back and side snares now

So does zerks and bms

know why? their style kits are basically the same >.<

Boring. Abandon changes pls, this is a step in the wrong direction. People voted to have bad lines made good, not have all lines look the same.

Yeah, plz just don't touch the lines that are used, try to fix only those that ppl never spec
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:36 PM by Bry
so reavers get a rear snare BUT LEVI DOESN'T become part of the second hit in the chain? Also, rangers instantly get nerfed on their frontal root style but SCOUTS ARE ALLOWED TO KEEP AN RA that is a style built in? Enough with your custum alb-favored changes. Freaking horrible idea. At least try to balance it if you are going to do it. Friar still has a 27s rear snare at level 18. Nobody else gets a 27s snare at level 18. All the snares around that level are 15s.

Also Thanes now get rear damage procs on hammer and sword?

Yet your going to "watch the VW 2nd hit style very closely." You haven't cared about reavers being able to kill people in slam by themselves with their 153 cold dd proc style, but yet you are worried about a 198 cold dd style on the 2nd hit of a side chain?

How about you watch the reaver rear style closely for the past 2 years? No. Balance. You are killing this server.

And most importantly, giving skalds and only skalds a style that increases the ENTIRE group's crit by 25% is absolutely broken. 25% crit is worth 34 realm points. 34! To the whole group. So for 5s, the entire group gets a free 3 and a half realm ranks. So any rr11 in the group basically, for 5s, gets 25% additional crit chance effectively making them rr14 for 5s. And only mid gets this. It shouldn't exist for only 1 realm and it shouldn't even exist.

Do not push these changes through. WoW has Shadowlands coming out very soon. There is not an insignificant population on this server that is going to break for that expansion...with these ill-thought out changes, there is no reason for people to consider staying.

There are many comments about "This isn't what I voted for" and "the voting questions were vague." I agree with that wholeheartedly. I would 100% change my votes if i had known the intent of the changes.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:39 PM by Ashman
a) play reaver

b) play warden

c) stop playing


hmmm
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:49 PM by Kwall0311
Bry wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:36 PM
This will be 100% alb favored, mark my words.

Did you read the warden changes ?
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:50 PM by gruenesschaf
Bry wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:36 PM
This will be 100% alb favored, mark my words.

If you ignore the levi delve reduction and ignore all buffs to hib or mid classes and only focus on alb buffs then yes, this is an alb focused buff.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:51 PM by Drunkstains
Can you redo the survey but instead of having this misleading question:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?

Yes: 923/1461 (63%)
No: 514/1461 (35%)

Change you change it to:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think we should overhaul all weapon lines and made a copy of what live did when they overhauled the style system?

If you are more up front with your intentions on these questions we can answer them better. I guarantee you wont be getting a 63% in favor of yes
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:53 PM by Ibs
We've noticed people voted to going back to the old mastery of pain variance, so we did that without restoring the old percentage increase.

We've noticed people voted to make unused weapon lines more competitive, so we drastically changed the core game mechanics, changed every style and weapon line in the game, added asinine bonuses to classes that didn't need them.

This is starting to feel like a sick monkey paw scenario. Remember this the next time they have a vote/survey, probably best to vote no, or even just abstain.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:54 PM by Noashakra
Drunkstains wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:51 PM
Can you redo the survey but instead of having this misleading question:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?

Yes: 923/1461 (63%)
No: 514/1461 (35%)

Change you change it to:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think we should overhaul all weapon lines and made a copy of what live did when they overhauled the style system?

If you are more up front with your intentions on these questions we can answer them better. I guarantee you wont be getting a 63% in favor of yes

Big point here, people wanted to see axe and sword buffed for mid, not change ALL the system...
The 5L RA killed ideas my mood, and this is the last nail in the coffin.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:54 PM by yepyukon
Wow, VWers are about to be the new FOTM. They are going to be in God-mode for a bit haha.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:55 PM by Teisiphone
Finally some changes to help the overall weak tank meta on the server.

: )
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:00 PM by tommccartney
When I voted ‘Yes’ to making all melee lines viable here is what I expected, perhaps;

-Dual Wield received a rear snare.
-LA got a short sidestun(4sec maybe).
-Axe/Sword lines gain one positional snare.(back or side, leaving hammer still the favourite for snare at a cost of least favourite for armour resists, just as it should be)
-VW side chain became 2 part(lower proc delve a bit).
-VW, Reaver, Savage anytime gained a small to-hit bonus
-Lower double frost end usage.

Now all snares are 40% ?! Caster groups gain another advantage ??

Why do the Devs of this server not understand the concept of ‘subtle changes’. When they change something it’s always a totally over the top change. This change will change the whole dynamic of the server ...

HERE IS SOME ADVICE DEVS.
Make subtle changes. Small changes. When ever you change ANYTHING.
You can monitor player feedback and based on that you can undo or add to the change, small steps at a time.
This doesn’t just apply to styles, it applies to anything.

THIS IS NOT WHAT I VOTED FOR.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:03 PM by gruenesschaf
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:00 PM
Now all snares are 40% ?! Caster groups gain another advantage ??

I think you should try to explain this one.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:07 PM by DarkarDruid
At the risk of being overly negative, this is just a terrible idea. First, it makes each realm a 'cookie cutter' of each other. Dilutes the essence of DaoC. Second, it HOSES so many people that have spent HUNDREDS of hours going on raids/farming etc to template their toons - now many will have to modify their templates, costing so much more time/effort. Third, it's too many changes all at once making things too unpredictable. Fourth, you're removing some of the very elements that made combat in DaoC so unique for 19 years. Fifth, this doesn't address some of the specific classes that needed adjustments/help (minstral, zerk, etc)... i could go on but this sums up my disappointment.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:09 PM by tommccartney
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:03 PM
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:00 PM
Now all snares are 40% ?! Caster groups gain another advantage ??

I think you should try to explain this one.

When you’re a mid Tank group and you’re vs a Hib caster group and you want to pin casters/support to prevent kite ? 60% or 40% ?

Now explain why you’re hell bent on killing the server.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:11 PM by Tyrlaan
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:49 PM
Bry wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:36 PM
This will be 100% alb favored, mark my words.

Did you read the warden changes ?

Did you read the Skald changes?

Hammer style to reduce melee damage taken by 25% for the whole group and reflect that damage back to the attacker - 5 seconds duration.
Hammer style to raise melee crit chance by 25% for the whole group (and every Mid group with tanks runs a Skald) - 5 seconds duration.

This is going to change solo (Skald), smallman and 8man a lot more than debuffing heals on your enemy or a chain that deals some bonus damage.
This is making Hammer even more of a must-have spec than it is already.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:12 PM by Cruella
Its always with the head through the wall here or nothing. Small changes that can be tested are ok. But this .... sry i really appreciate your commitment
to bring us new interesting stuff to play around... but this isnt a good idea at all. Just forget about it...and burrow it somewhere deep.

Edit:
Wow. You also deleted the iconic armsman anytime snare /slowclap. Nice...not.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:14 PM by Tulpa
Feeling so bad for all the people with templates who will have to rebuild and remake.

My first 50 was a warden, he'll be permanently parked now with these changes. You broke the class even more than it already was without sheild.

Not even sure i'll keep farming, whats the point now until we know if this sticks around....

Think i'll stop playing for 6 months and wait and see.... probably won't pick it back up...

This was the last bastion... i have been playing since 2001.

Bye for now.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:14 PM by Kurbsen
please for the love of everything dont do these changes. Rip annihilation, 7 second stun, two style chain? We voted on giving spec lines some more love, not a complete overhaul of the system. These are some really bad changes, Id rather have the bad implementation of rr5 in than these.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:17 PM by Dariussdars
Tyrlaan wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:11 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:49 PM
Bry wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:36 PM
This will be 100% alb favored, mark my words.

Did you read the warden changes ?

Did you read the Skald changes?

Hammer style to reduce melee damage taken by 25% for the whole group and reflect that damage back to the attacker - 5 seconds duration.
Hammer style to raise melee crit chance by 25% for the whole group (and every Mid group with tanks runs a Skald) - 5 seconds duration.

This is going to change solo (Skald), smallman and 8man a lot more than debuffing heals on your enemy or a chain that deals some bonus damage.
This is making Hammer even more of a must-have spec than it is already.

Solo Skald will now have to spec 48 hammer/44 BS/10 parry. Not sure if the damage reflect/crit bonus are worth switching from 44/46/17 though.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:24 PM by thirian24
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:00 PM
When I voted ‘Yes’ to making all melee lines viable here is what I expected, perhaps;

-Dual Wield received a rear snare.
-LA got a short sidestun(4sec maybe).
-Axe/Sword lines gain one positional snare.(back or side, leaving hammer still the favourite for snare at a cost of least favourite for armour resists, just as it should be)
-VW side chain became 2 part(lower proc delve a bit).
-VW, Reaver, Savage anytime gained a small to-hit bonus
-Lower double frost end usage.

Now all snares are 40% ?! Caster groups gain another advantage ??

Why do the Devs of this server not understand the concept of ‘subtle changes’. When they change something it’s always a totally over the top change. This change will change the whole dynamic of the server ...

HERE IS SOME ADVICE DEVS.
Make subtle changes. Small changes. When ever you change ANYTHING.
You can monitor player feedback and based on that you can undo or add to the change, small steps at a time.
This doesn’t just apply to styles, it applies to anything.

THIS IS NOT WHAT I VOTED FOR.

For once i agree with you.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:24 PM by thirian24
Drunkstains wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:51 PM
Can you redo the survey but instead of having this misleading question:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?

Yes: 923/1461 (63%)
No: 514/1461 (35%)

Change you change it to:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think we should overhaul all weapon lines and made a copy of what live did when they overhauled the style system?

If you are more up front with your intentions on these questions we can answer them better. I guarantee you wont be getting a 63% in favor of yes

This X1000
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:29 PM by Tubby
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:00 PM
When I voted ‘Yes’ to making all melee lines viable here is what I expected, perhaps;

-Dual Wield received a rear snare.
-LA got a short sidestun(4sec maybe).
-Axe/Sword lines gain one positional snare.(back or side, leaving hammer still the favourite for snare at a cost of least favourite for armour resists, just as it should be)
-VW side chain became 2 part(lower proc delve a bit).
-VW, Reaver, Savage anytime gained a small to-hit bonus
-Lower double frost end usage.

Now all snares are 40% ?! Caster groups gain another advantage ??

Why do the Devs of this server not understand the concept of ‘subtle changes’. When they change something it’s always a totally over the top change. This change will change the whole dynamic of the server ...

HERE IS SOME ADVICE DEVS.
Make subtle changes. Small changes. When ever you change ANYTHING.
You can monitor player feedback and based on that you can undo or add to the change, small steps at a time.
This doesn’t just apply to styles, it applies to anything.

THIS IS NOT WHAT I VOTED FOR.

i could not of said this better myself.!
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:31 PM by Dariussdars
Berserker just got a 7 second stun in a LA backstyle follow up.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:32 PM by Frigzy
Please reconsider these changes before the playerbase reconsiders this server.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:33 PM by Strikejk
Dunno why people go nuts about the reaver, levi damage is reduced and spirit damage now.. Gonna craft a new weapon with spirit proc.. will Reaver still be viable for DS debuff runs?
No long range ASP sucks too. Sure they get snares, but now everyone gets snares so it's not really a buff.

In my book this is a reaver nerf.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:37 PM by tommccartney
Am I seeing things or will Hammer lvl29 Conquer rear style have no snare effect for a Zerker ?
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:39 PM by Tubby
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:03 PM
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:00 PM
Now all snares are 40% ?! Caster groups gain another advantage ??

I think you should try to explain this one.

i personally think this is a tad passive aggressive. look people are not happy with the new system its clear well sorry old copy live system. its not an advantage for casters but its game changing and honestly some people have spent a year enjoying characters people have started getting to rank 10/11/12 and now you do this its gonna be bitter for alot of people but maybe VWs
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:39 PM by Strikejk
Please please please upload the old version of the charplaner for comparison sake.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:41 PM by Forlornhope
I play on this server to avoid all this nonsense on live. This server's going more and more downhill every few months.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:42 PM by biGGio
Awful changes. Please don't implement more strategies. Make more lines viable. If you want to start giving debuffs, don't do it via styles. Put debuffs on weapons (POC weapon from classic). I agree some lines coulda used some buffs/balancing, but this is a giant change. So much like live.

DAoC is great in its simplicity and people have a hard time keeping snares up as they were.

Buff VWs? For what? One of the best tanks in the game.

Buff Wardens? For what? Hands down the best class in the game right now (maybe friars).

Please don't implement this. I voted yes to making some lines more viable, i.e. a snare at some point, but not this lol.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:43 PM by Ardri
Where is the doom hammer style for thanes? When will the discrimination end?
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:44 PM by DinoTriz
VWs just wanted a decent Anytimer.

But I suppose we'll take those frontal styles!

Now going 50 Scythe is truly the best choice.

But my poor Berserker....No more back chain...

Oh well, Axe is looking pretty nice and finally I'll get to play an ACTUAL berserker. Wielding a Hammer felt so wrong.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:48 PM by tommccartney
Tubby wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:39 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:03 PM
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:00 PM
Now all snares are 40% ?! Caster groups gain another advantage ??

I think you should try to explain this one.

i personally think this is a tad passive aggressive. look people are not happy with the new system its clear well sorry old copy live system. its not an advantage for casters but its game changing and honestly some people have spent a year enjoying characters people have started getting to rank 10/11/12 and now you do this its gonna be bitter for alot of people but maybe VWs

Guilty of thinking of one side of the coin there. Casters & support rely on space and positioning, Mid push group with a good Skald pinning the back line with 60% snare will now be working with 40% but yeah, I agree, the term game changing was better suited.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:51 PM by Nogrod
Well, i'm not sure that following live on this path it's what gonna keep this server alive.

I don't think those changes are neither needed nor wanted.

Hope you will do the same than with OF/NF and made it live one week only and put it to a vote at the end.
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:52 PM by Festers
From a PoV of someone who mains a reaver.

Levi from 153 to 113 - big nerf to what is currently the reaver's main DPS.
Asp from rear to detaunt - taking a completely unique ability and removing it for something almost useless.
Lev 34 anytimer - could sit here and drool over how good this could be, but given relatively low HP pool on phoenix this will be stupidly OP in many scenarios, anytime will regularly hit for 200+ when factoring whip dmg, proc dmg + DA. Same goes for Thane anytime.
Side/rear snares - we could get side snare @ 21 slash, meaning those who had the skill to switch/snare/switch back were rewarded.

From what I've seen from other style line changes it has been a cut & paste job from live with many style effects that have absolutely no place on phoenix. Seems rushed and will have too much of an affect on the current dynamic of RvR.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:01 AM by Encipher
Could not agree more that these changes are NOT in the spirit of what the players voted for. If you are really looking to make changes and update less used spec lines please go with the idea of making some targeted changes, not a total overhaul of the game we all love.

There is a reason live is dead and phoenix is not, I would strongly suggest and ask that you do not move in that direction.

Edit: Also, while I am not a fan of the RR5 changes that were proposed, I did not feel so strongly that I posted feedback on the issue. After reading this I would take the RR5 changes 5 times over before this style overhaul given the choice.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:04 AM by Kurbsen
wonder what'll happen, pretty much every post i've seen has been pretty negative towards this. Why cant there be an actual vote on THIS? The vote that was done was not even close to the same thing that is presented.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:05 AM by Tubby
Festers wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:52 PM
From a PoV of someone who mains a reaver.

Levi from 153 to 113 - big nerf to what is currently the reaver's main DPS.
Asp from rear to detaunt - taking a completely unique ability and removing it for something almost useless.
Lev 34 anytimer - could sit here and drool over how good this could be, but given relatively low HP pool on phoenix this will be stupidly OP in many scenarios, anytime will regularly hit for 200+ when factoring whip dmg, proc dmg + DA. Same goes for Thane anytime.
Side/rear snares - we could get side snare @ 21 slash, meaning those who had the skill to switch/snare/switch back were rewarded.

From what I've seen from other style line changes it has been a cut & paste job from live with many style effects that have absolutely no place on phoenix. Seems rushed and will have too much of an affect on the current dynamic of RvR.

Could not agree more. Asp was so unique not used alot and great with the lore of the class. I honestly don't want to be spamming anytime but looks like it will be anytime then slam to side chain health back and anytime again. Might just spec 34 flex now...
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:06 AM by Freedomcall
Well, tbh I don't know how to express my feeling after reviewing charplanner.
But I think this gives me a good excuse to take a break at least for the time being.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:10 AM by JaggedOne
Gonna have to agree with all the comments about what a terrible change this is. It certainly is not what I envisioned when I tried to honestly answer the questions on the poll - I certainly would like to take back a couple of my "Yes" answers. Hopefully gruenesschaf will see the overwhelming pushback against this, sleep on it, and cast it into the deep, never to be seen (or spoken of) again.

If I wanted to play live, I would play live. I am not playing here because it is free, I am playing here because it is...oops, was...better.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:13 AM by Preacher26
For mid it looks like hammer will remain meta for Skald but for warriors running 50 weapon specs looks like sword will be the go to. Am I missing something? Always going to be a meta this won’t change that imho.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:14 AM by Strikejk
BIG ISSUE

You add the new weaponlines from live, okay, some like it, some don't. But people overlook a massive issue here!

The weapon lines got updated together with the new spell lines. This is especially important for all the Hybrids.

Paladin for example got celerity and other goodies. Reaver got better Soulrending spells to make up the loss of the high DPS levi. This allowed on live a change to high soulrending but low flex spec. And these are just examples from 2 classes on alb. This affects all hybrid classes with spell lines.

Those new style lines were fine in combination with the new spell lines aswell. You can't just do one without the other. Sure I can go high soulrending now with 34 flex like on live, except that high soulrending sucks on this server in comparison.

If you want to add the new weapon lines - okay, but don't do it without the new spell lines on hybdrids aswell!
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:23 AM by Forlornhope
What weapon line are the warden styles going to be in?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:32 AM by Tubby
JaggedOne wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:10 AM
Gonna have to agree with all the comments about what a terrible change this is. It certainly is not what I envisioned when I tried to honestly answer the questions on the poll - I certainly would like to take back a couple of my "Yes" answers. Hopefully gruenesschaf will see the overwhelming pushback against this, sleep on it, and cast it into the deep, never to be seen (or spoken of) again.

If I wanted to play live, I would play live. I am not playing here because it is free, I am playing here because it is...oops, was...better.

I said the same mate im with yah
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:33 AM by Tubby
Strikejk wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:14 AM
BIG ISSUE

You add the new weaponlines from live, okay, some like it, some don't. But people overlook a massive issue here!

The weapon lines got updated together with the new spell lines. This is especially important for all the Hybrids.

Paladin for example got celerity and other goodies. Reaver got better Soulrending spells to make up the loss of the high DPS levi. This allowed on live a change to high soulrending but low flex spec. And these are just examples from 2 classes on alb. This affects all hybrid classes with spell lines.

Those new style lines were fine in combination with the new spell lines aswell. You can't just do one without the other. Sure I can go high soulrending now with 34 flex like on live, except that high soulrending sucks on this server in comparison.

If you want to add the new weapon lines - okay, but don't do it without the new spell lines on hybdrids aswell!

Didn't even think about this. You are right. Although I'm gonna find my reaver boring now anytime spam slam and lifetap side style for ever duel/1vsx
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:34 AM by spyderz33
I enjoyed the game more when phoenix just made the buff changes instead of using charges on items and we were in OF Someone invent a time machine please.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:37 AM by oBreak
Not in favor of these changes.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:44 AM by Kappu
DinoTriz wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:44 PM
VWs just wanted a decent Anytimer.

But I suppose we'll take those frontal styles!

Now going 50 Scythe is truly the best choice.

But my poor Berserker....No more back chain...

Oh well, Axe is looking pretty nice and finally I'll get to play an ACTUAL berserker. Wielding a Hammer felt so wrong.

What do you mean no more back chain?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:45 AM by Buv
2020 really does suck...
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:50 AM by thirian24
RIP all my templated toons that'll likely have to be retemplated to a more favorable weapon spec now.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:56 AM by Bobbahunter
What’s next!?!? Make all Archery spell shots now too. If your tired of running the server just say it. Stop finding ways to justify shutting it down by getting your player base to quit.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:01 AM by thascarecrow
I don't want every style line to have frontal positional styles, the only time I would use them would be in a 1on1 and my hotbar is full already without adding or changing anything about it. Can you please re-evaluate these changes?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:05 AM by trawetsnivek
This is precisely why I voted no to making all the style lines viable. I knew it would result in more than a few minor tweaks. Please reconsider implementing these changes.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:17 AM by cmckenzie1452
Looking at styles on Char Planner, and it looks like Misty Gloom (29DW side style) is way out of balance with BM and Zerk side styles. It's currently at 365 dmg at 74, which seems way off for a style of it's level and compared to the others. It's the highest positional style outside of savage at 370. This seems like an oversight that should be looked at before Monday.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:22 AM by Hamlock
You're turning a classic server into what live is. Live is dead for a reason. Stop trying to kill your own server. What's next, adding master levels and artifacts?

Your survey questions were also unclear. These changes are not what we asked for. Please do not follow through with them.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:26 AM by Drakonal
This is not what i voted for, i think you guys need to do the extra work and choose option 1 instead of option 2. Because as you can see people don't want that broadsword crap here. You need to cheery pick things to help RvR (Group or Zerg) combat. Thanes could use damage procs, mercs could use a rear snare. Zerks could use a stun. This is common sense stuff. Hell even VW getting 2 part blizzard blade makes sense on this server. But copy and pasting live styles? Nah that's not gonna fly here.


-Drakula
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:27 AM by Ambron
Crazy how many ppl complaining about their "YES"-Vote about the style-changes. You guys must have been very stupid to not think about the consequences.
Those Devs are changing things around with a "Ouh that would be cooool!"-Teenager-mentality and trying to balance things afterwards if people are complaining too much about it. So many things are stupidly changed on this server. You voters should have known that those changes would suck.

Just keep every Weaponline and Class unique and follow classic-live-patches to have a balanced and enjoyable server. You guys might be good coder but i doubt you are good at balancing 3 realms with 13 classes each after your yolo-patches.

Offtopic: Why do i play on phoenix? I love classic-daoc and the server got the numbers. Uthgard with QoL-PvE-changes would be my goal
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:31 AM by Amarath
If you are going to give one realm a group buff such as the skald's style all realms really need to get it. This is largely what keeps daoc balanced. Now some realms have small advantages over others but 25% crit + 25% damage reflect means no melee can even fight a mid melee group. That rather obvious right? They already do well. Look at what hib gets wardens can debuff 1 target and get healed better... Make that aoe and group and you have an equally overpowered situation.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:34 AM by Amarath
Ambron wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:27 AM
Crazy how many ppl complaining about their "YES"-Vote about the style-changes. You guys must have been very stupid to not think about the consequences.
Those Devs are changing things around with a "Ouh that would be cooool!"-Teenager-mentality and trying to balance things afterwards if people are complaining too much about it. So many things are stupidly changed on this server. You voters should have known that those changes would suck.

Just keep every Weaponline and Class unique and follow classic-live-patches to have a balanced and enjoyable server. You guys might be good coder but i doubt you are good at balancing 3 realms with 13 classes each after your yolo-patches.

Offtopic: Why do i play on phoenix? I love classic-daoc and the server got the numbers. Uthgard with QoL-PvE-changes would be my goal

Making other lines viable isn't the same as changing all melee and unbalancing the sides
They could have just increased the growth of a few of the less used weapon skill lines (or added a med stun or snare to a few without them). Bingo done. The question was viable not entirely different.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:47 AM by Bradekes
Wouldn't think make slam for everyone that isn't main tank 5seconds?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:23 AM by Hayter
We Wanted Useless weapons brought up. how the hell did that turn into Overhaul from hell that your proposing. "oh we get a free respec". what about the ridiculous amount of time we have put into some of these toons that instead of bringing a few new toys to USELESS LINES. you changed lines that fundamentally make the class what it is?



Seriously Scrap this, re-read what you asked us, then adjust things slowly. You're trying to do surgery with a shotgun.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:27 AM by zanybot
I'm going to add to the litany of negative posts. No one wants to respec, retemplate, re-qbind, re-AHK, relearn all of their toons they invested time in. I don't even want to play until this is known whether this change is going to stay or not as I don't care to do all of the above, then it gets reversed. Time for a break.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:43 AM by ziggleo
You cant be serious, april is too far away and not funny. These are terrible changes and will disrupt the server horribly.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:49 AM by Higach
Coming Monday eh? Sounds like another radical change you already have developed and ready to go and you used the survey to be misleading and justify sneaking this in.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:51 AM by Hector
Bad change overall. Too radical. People still want to play classic DAoC. Just add side and back snares to a couple melee lines. Why the hell are you overhauling the entire system? If you're trying to get people to stop playing you are doing a great job.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:54 AM by Dsai
"Stealth opener had their scaling slightly reduced to account for con debuff hitting before it, the scaling is still higher than what it is currently. " Basically any work around to combat the nerfs made to stealthers, you will continue to pound into the ground. I mean you already added a resist to PA to reduce damage, bladeturn etc. Stealth groups developed related to stealth nerfs and now you "will look into stealth groups" I guess making volley useless wasn't enough along with all the other changes made.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:56 AM by Hector
Drunkstains wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:51 PM
Can you redo the survey but instead of having this misleading question:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?

Yes: 923/1461 (63%)
No: 514/1461 (35%)

Change you change it to:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think we should overhaul all weapon lines and made a copy of what live did when they overhauled the style system?

If you are more up front with your intentions on these questions we can answer them better. I guarantee you wont be getting a 63% in favor of yes

100%
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:03 AM by protege
One major flaw I see with this change is that LIVE SERVERS have /uses and abilities to combat the overpoweredness of these styles... We do not here.

Think this idea needs to be 86'd.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:04 AM by DinoTriz
Kappu wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:44 AM
What do you mean no more back chain?

The famous Berserker back chain is gone.

They split it up.

Not that huge of a deal, I guess. Axe being more viable takes away the sting.

I was somewhat excited about this change but the more it dawns on me, the less I support it.

They did too much, too fast.

They could've started with just trimming long style chains or give Mercs a back snare.

I don't know, it seems too much now.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:06 AM by LegalEagle52
I don't have anything to add that hasn't been said, but I too join in the already 8+ pages of dissent that have appeared before EU has even seen the plan.

-Legal
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:07 AM by Beeblebrox
Didn't the friar have more spec points when these changes were in effect? If I recall friars had 1.8 rather than 1.5. Does the change make sense without the extra spec points?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:18 AM by Strikejk
Beeblebrox wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:07 AM
Didn't the friar have more spec points when these changes were in effect? If I recall friars had 1.8 rather than 1.5. Does the change make sense without the extra spec points?

Not only that. Those style changes came with 1.91
There have been numerous massive changes to the entire game before and with 1.91 compared to what we have on here. The style changes were done with those other changes in mind. What we have here are style changes that were made for a game we don't have. This isn't daoc 1.91.
Its 1.65 with custom changes

I could spent hours here explaining the difference between 1.65 daoc and 1.91 daoc but I'm sure every experienced daoc player here has an idea how different the game was that was the groundwork for these style changes.

I do like the switch away from the growrate system but that's about it sadly.
If that style system comes, we need to seriously re-evaluate all changes that have been made till 1.91 and consider implementing them as well, not all, but definitely a good portion. Otherwise this will become a big balance mess.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:22 AM by soremir
I say let's give it a try!
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:53 AM by andreynk257
Am I understanding correctly that these style changes will implement the same styles that are used on the live version now?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:55 AM by Dietmar
Meh, class XXX has been NERFED!!! Class YYY is gonna be GODLIKE!!!! GRRAARRAAAFERRA!!!!!! (comicbook guy voice)
That is one strategy to approach these changes. A another one is to play with the changes, respec, play some more and come up with some thought out criticisms and ways to improve some problems you see during your gameplay...

My torch isn't lit yet.....it is, however, within reach.......
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:55 AM by easytoremember
mirroring bad
group-effect styles bad
self-effect styles here and there ok
self-effect styles everywhere bad
snares for all bad

pbaoe styles are tolerable by case
-like VW grasping roots, go for it
Tanks with anytime pbaoe dd styles reevaluate your psyche

Those 3-4 style chains you're trying to get rid of, especially the ones that offer no real reason to use/attempt them, are ironically very good candidates to employ strong effects like (self) crit bonus

I agree with the sentiment of leaving the weapon lines alone where their styles are already being put to use
Fri 16 Oct 2020 4:07 AM by sabyrtuth
I'm a little late but... why? This is too radical, custom alb scouts keeping their bs shield ability among all this other nonsense. Buffing some other lines would be possible no? Instead of entirely changing the mechanics.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 4:19 AM by bculpepper
I hate to add to the negative here but I fear I must. I'll try the styles and try to be fair, but right off its easy to see issues.

As other have said, these styles were implemented in DAOC Live after MANY MANY other changes to the game. Quick example... on Phoenix SB/NS get 3253 spec points. Infiltrators get 3706. You have added massive damage styles in the CS line that realistically only Infiltrators can spec for given the point differences. On live the spec points between the assassin classes is much closer. You also spend points on Envenom/Stealth different on live as well which changes what styles are available.

You cant just sub out all the styles for live with no other changes and not expect a lot of problems.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 4:25 AM by Muse
Changing stylesystem to live without nerfing slam is horrible.
Fulltanks should be the only class to have access to a 9s anytime stun.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 4:45 AM by IdiamVonGawaine
Just delete melee and stealth characters already and create a server of only casters and support chars. Make melee pets that can be purchases at keeps to run rams, just like the old siege merchants, as it's obvious that the game devs of DAOC are either completely clueless or biased against the melee/stealth classes.

In less than 90 days you've:
- nerfed melee damage by reintroducing that stupid RnG system used on live.
- nerfed archer volley ability that allowed them to actually compete against cats and gtaoe at sieges, making archers actually viable.
- suggested RR5 abilities where almost half focus on decreasing the effectiveness of melee chars

And now you've pretty much ruined every melee line by "fixing" them....making them LESS effective then they were before.

People don't play melee chars as it is, because they're trash compared to the incredible powers of the ranged casters in the game, and now you've gone and given people another excuse to NOT role or play melee chars.

Great job guys. You're killing your own server faster than the idiots at mythic ever could...
Fri 16 Oct 2020 4:52 AM by Oliasen
I am not moved to post on forums that often, but here goes. First off I want to say that I really do appreciate what devs have been doing to make this server possible, it takes a lot of work and I recognize that as a community we can be quite harsh on almost every point of the game that is either changed, or not changed, in defense of what each individual person thinks DAOC should be.

I can't help but to feel that the changes made and perhaps yet to come from the recent survey have been carried out somewhat in bad faith. It was presented more or less as opinion gathering covering a very wide range of topics. While for example I voted no (current) on the physical damage variance changes, it's something I can be persuaded to see both ways. However I was a bit surprised that it was changed so quickly. When I voted the answers were basically split 50/50, apart by 1%, and now that difference is still only 4%. People were still voting and discussing while it was changed - shouldn't this be something that is put to a singular vote, where people have more time to discuss and understand the implications? I am not saying that necessarily the result would or should be different, it's just about process.

That leads into these style changes, and validates my feeling that the survey was a trojan horse to push through certain pre-meditated changes. It is difficult to find the logical link between the question (Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?), and what is presented in this thread. Furthermore, there is no way someone could know that this is what they were voting for. As far as I am concerned, the changes presented in this thread have not been voted on or discussed by the community at all, outside of the overwhelmingly negative consensus in this thread. While I also voted no on this question, my point is simply to echo what has already been said quite well by others in this thread, as well as the specific points brought up (later styles brought in without consideration for other changes that balanced them, players needing expensive re-temps, completely rewriting the playstyles of characters that people have invested a huge amount of time in, class specific balance issues, etc) - this can't possibly be what they voted for.

p.s. free race respecs would also need to be given on top of skill line respec.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 4:59 AM by gotwqqd
Muse wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 4:25 AM
Changing stylesystem to live without nerfing slam is horrible.
Fulltanks should be the only class to have access to a 9s anytime stun.
I think weapon swapping penalty would go a long way to fixing things.
It would curb assassins also.

Swap out of a weapon type, timer before you can re-equip it
Fri 16 Oct 2020 5:03 AM by thirian24
Dietmar wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:55 AM
Meh, class XXX has been NERFED!!! Class YYY is gonna be GODLIKE!!!! GRRAARRAAAFERRA!!!!!! (comicbook guy voice)
That is one strategy to approach these changes. A another one is to play with the changes, respec, play some more and come up with some thought out criticisms and ways to improve some problems you see during your gameplay...

My torch isn't lit yet.....it is, however, within reach.......

You cant just simply respec and give it a whirl, as there will be go to specs thatll be better than others. Just like now.

For many people, this will mean completely retemplating many many toons. How are you going to retemp just to try out something new?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 5:24 AM by Dean0178
Throwing my hat into the "Please Reconsider" (TM) ring. (As well as the Don't Make Sweeping Changes ring, while I have the floor lol)

Almost 100 posts in less than 8 hours saying "Please, no!" should be a clear indication that this needs to be reconsidered. While the devs are the ones putting the work in, customer satisfaction is the ONLY measure of success, right?

Looking at it from a player perspective, what was presented in post 1 here is NOT what was suggested in the survey, if that's what is being used as justification. Yes, this is only a small percentage of people who voted, but I think I've only seen 1 or 2 remotely positive replies here... and even those were kind of a non-committal "well let's try it I guess" kind of response. Kuddos to them for their attitude I just wonder what percentage are going to SEE this and bother to read it, vs the survey which was pushed hard.

Anyways, carry on, I'm not quitting daoc or anything, just saddened.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 5:42 AM by Nheryn
Please gms, don't do this .. Or make a other vote for this.. Changing all styles is not a good thing
Fri 16 Oct 2020 5:45 AM by evert
No no no, no one voted for this. Other have already said it, side stun in LA, to-hit for vws, snares/utility in axe/sword/blunt, merc snare, done basically.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 5:57 AM by seanbud
just chiming in to say that most of these changes are really bad.

remove all the toa bonus procs. i don't know who the hell called for these changes.

i think it's a travesty to change iconic styles like Annihilation at this point.


you've done a great job of making lots of useless specs viable(earth wizard, etc), but these changes are not needed and people have spent days and months grinding rank on characters who are now receiving some really drastic changes.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 6:11 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Devs, please, DO NOT CAVE TO THE CRYBABIES WHO HATE ANY CHANGE!
Fri 16 Oct 2020 6:32 AM by Noashakra
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 6:11 AM
Devs, please, DO NOT CAVE TO THE CRYBABIES WHO HATE ANY CHANGE!

The classic... Insulting people without arguments. People are not against changes.
They are against a complete overhaul of the game that will break daoc.
There are obvious problems that will break balance, something already fragile in this game with three realms, while at the same time destroying realm identify.

But it's easier to call the people who see the future problems cry babies...
Remind me the result of the survey? I think a majority want some changes. Just not those ones...
Go back to your cave troll.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 6:32 AM by Svar
I think a lot of these changes are too big too fast and they need to be introduced incrementally. I am all for changes and updates, but I'm curious why paladins seem to be the only class to get the shaft. Every other line got massively buffed, paladin had their side/rear snare nerfed by 20% and given a slightly stronger anytime. You have just designated them to antique status, more than they were.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 6:40 AM by Muse
Giving tanks each the same snarestyles would fix 90% of the current problems.
dont need to overhaul all the styles, but givin every tank in every weaponline the same advantage would help a lot.
the 3 style chains ok, make it 2, tune it down like vw, etc.

this is just a lot of changes many didnt want i think
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:10 AM by Sepplord
I haven't read all the comments yet but i think one thing is clear.

When people voted in the survey for making all style lines viable, they definitely were thinking off the Announcement you made here in march
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/12984-q2-2020-style-changes#99790
I don't think anyone expected it to result in Buffs to the already used weaponlines and stylelines. And the explanation WHY you are going that way, sounds like the lazy way out.
The style announcements were made in March, and almost 7months later out of nowhere it is decided to just copy livelike-styles and do the patch within 4days of the announcement

With the vote clearly in favor of making the weapon lines usable quite a few changes would be required, there were basically two choices
1) Go from the current 1.65 styles and add the required elements to each line as needed
2) Take a more recent set of styles as the starting point where those changes have already been done

If those are the two options, why not have THOSE written as options in the survey?
Why not have those two options and a "no change" option, and let players rank those according to their likings



On the other hand we are always complaining about the castermeta...so we will have to see how this plays out.
It is very hard to gauge though, since reducing all melee snares from 60% down to 40% (a 33% nerf on the movementspeedreduction) i am unsure if these changes will really favor melees. The issue never was doing melee-dmg when you are hitting castergroups, the issue was getting to hit them at all, and then staying on them.
On first look it seems like the latter will become harder. We will have to wait and see if the other additional goodies help offset it and aren't used against melees
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:29 AM by Tashkent
Wow, hunters get the shaft. No stop/frozen comet root style for kiting. So hunter is the only archer unable to enforce kiting.
Spear styles got nerfed. As a high dex race I need to switch to sword now, but luri pierce rangers can still enjoy the goodies from CD.
Brace yourselves for all the solo friars/vws.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:30 AM by labra
Ok I wasn't expetcting this.

I've read all previous posts and even if I disagree with most of them who are quite stuck in the "I don't want any change" meta, I have to say some changes are a bit too much and needs to find counterpart, or keep them at least.

First of all, I don't play any classes so feel free to lecture me regarding any classes, I don't mind, as long as it stays polite of course.
I play mainly reaver and friar (melee oriented). I had a melee warden wich is in the locker currently since it wasn't good at all and didn't fit the healing meta.
I still have a vw somewhere, trying to land a pve style without any to hit bonus or hoping for a parry/evade.

I will try to talk about style changes overall and specifically to the above classes.

Style overall

I was more experting a 1.90 thingy change more accurate on Classic taste and still allowing diversity.
You will find some examples here (a charplan I still use today to get some tips around stats, speed calc etc): http://daoctb.sourceforge.net/
The new "live like" style are more powefull or ruthless (depending of point of view) and as I read it previously, went with other changes or add-ons that aren't here (ML, ML styles, updated gear and spells).
I'm ok with keeping the current changes if it's easier for devs to bring in and adjust than fully pimping style lines and getting it "live" in 2023. If it corrects the style icons it's good too.
I just hope adjustments will be very soon and often to real reflect pve/pvp balance..

Reaver
best dps style have been tuned down but isn't dead.
Having to choose between rear snare and leviathan is a good thing as it's lesser "no brainer".
Lvl 44 style was good but on 4th place from block chain. It's now a 2nd part of a side chain, wich is good.
Lvl 34 Constictor is now an anytime with a dd proc. It will need to be see and adjusted if too much op, I fully agree.

Friar
Heal styles, finally :p
I totally agree, even if I'm advocating for heal styles since the beggining, it's a bit op and would need to be tuned down.
But with 1.5 points, getting to 44 or 50 staff requires sacrifices.
It will shake solo world but I don't believe it will add a god mode class.
Keep 1.5 pts, focus on how friars behave (like with the reflex attack prior to nerf) and I believe you will only see a bit more melee friars, not the full church.

Valewarden
The main issue with vw was the lack of a decent anytime.
The long chains were an issue too, like many classes.
The 34/50 front chain will mostly affect solo meta (any caster or healer won't stay in front of opponent and will try to kite or run).
It will need some respec too as most vw stopped at 44 scythe for better arboreal spells.
This will need t be kept on focus (like friars) to adjust if vw become the next op class.

Warden
Warden will still lack shield spec and getting 1.5pts per level.
The level 40 blase style might be op but needs to shut down healing spec and tune down nurture.
Damage table is still low so you will miss/getting evade/pary/blocked.
It might lead to more melee/solo warden but I doubt that (even if I love this class).
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:32 AM by tommccartney
Imagine Runemaster got the Underpowered vote.

Phoenix Team be like;
Hmmm we have options here.

1) Add a couple of spells to up its utility

2) MAKE IT A GOD DAMN WARLOCK !!!!!
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:34 AM by Taln
Mine is just another post to ask you to reconsider those changes... They are bad... Like... Really bad.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:36 AM by discrete502
Also here to say, this is just bad news.. Please stop trying to homogenize the game...
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:58 AM by ewh
I do not agree with these changes apart from savage getting a snare that can actually be used. I voted no simply because generic melee is boring and weapon lines should be a specialisation which means you compromise on something else. I will try it but can't see it working out or be fun.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:03 AM by Succi
Nah it's ok guys we've only played with the current system for 20 years, I'm sure the GMs know better
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:09 AM by Amarath
So i spent some time really looking at what is going in and possible balance issues. Trying to take this impartially. I think OVERALL this is good. There are really bad classes out there (maybe all lines didn't need to be changed, but thanes, and a lot of hybrids are kinda useless or are useful in only say healing / support skills, without viable weapon skills.)

Current complaints:
Some people QQing about BMs? IDK why really.
Shields - i see no issues with the new weapon skills that would make the shield stuns an issue (save if everyone is just doing more damage melee, the fix here isn't stuns its just nerf all melee dps in pvp by w/e %). Maybe scout hate (which maybe an issue, but not a related one).
Aoe styles.

Issues i see with balance:
Skald - group wide exclusive style that provides 25% melee crit and reflect. (This will make mid melee massively melee advantaged. As others stated this even as a SELF buff only is good enough to be useful. Or make it 5-10%. Even 10% is pushing it. Or maybe just remove the reflect or crit or split them up into different chains. Or like with Wardens skills make it cost 50-80 end for a chain.)

Savage should have one of their multi hits moved to a side or back style to be equal with both Hib and Alb in ability (i understand savages are str but having a melee class on each side that can force a multi hit for disruption )

Balanced but possibly not a good idea based on changing play style of all realms:
The styles in general. Apparently, people like the old system more.

Aoe melee styles of VW, Frair, and Savage (kinda). This changes the play style of the realms a bit as a melee who aoes can interrupt multiple people. I could see people dislikeling this. Forces spreading out more. I never thought this was the end of the game tho.
Note- friar loses its 3 chain but side 8s stun instead gets an easy 5s side and 8 sec after a parry. Savage gets some big buffs to after parry and evade (but as stated its aoe is locked behind these). VW just gets a ton of procs and aoes and overall makes them nice (they needed help and this is some help; so did the others, all and all helpful).

Other Considerations:
These increases in hybrid damage via weapon styles may leave a class like Reaver a bit outclassed (they still have an LT, probably not as they are already pretty strong).

Thane maybe useful (well kinda, it for sure is a big help. Before these changed id never play a thane, now its seems fun.)

TLDR - Wardens new skills are most likely a pve buff to warden healing and thats it. Maybe an okay melee train.
Wardens are given a purge off styles (neg effects) with WS buff, with a chain of a purge of the enemy of a neg buff on a style with 420 "damage" (which is high) it does cost 75 end (which is a ton) or you can choose a low damage 2nd style with enemy abs debuff (for ONLY 40 end for the send style). A total of 125 end is required for the high damage chain (and for blunt), and 90 for the abs debuff chain. A 50% debuff to melee abs is big, and useful on melee train which i mean you are a hib and mids just leveled way up (also you'll only get like 1-2 of these chains off at any quick rate, if the fight lasts you could see another few). Compare this to Skalds which do less style damage (2 h makes up for this) and cost 10 and 15 end respectively (so they can use more than 2-4 attacks before ooe). Now wardens can get a 30%+ end reduction. End an issue on live as well, they only heal their as well. Also if these blunt skills work like they do on live the healing buff is healing the WARDEN does (so what run up hit a dude then run out and heal.... ) And same with the debuff the warden needs to go hit the HEALERS (of course you could hit 1 maybe 2 healers as any more and you'll be ooe). Maybe Phoenix changed this but i doubt it. In short, they are far less useful than you would think. Now if it was incoming healing debuff thats be great for the train.. its probably not (so vs valks, friars or reaver it will help; so 2 classes). But hey the 50% + warden healing is awesome for pve (honestly as far as tank healing goes you should be the best, no instas but so still not as good, but 50% is a ton).

Hoping for some pala love, maybe the route now is to stack the crap out of bleeds (i think i read all bleeds should stack now 20 damage every 4 s x4 is not great but its something- as they no longer tick each time applied may end up really not being much different unless small group.) I guess shields + chant bot is still your future.

Conclusion:
I think alb lost out if anything. Even more reasons to run cabbies and sorcs. Hibs should probably stick with their baseline stuns and now their wardens can maybe wack a cleric or healer and destroy their healing (or better yet sit by your healers and also heal .... so same shit.) Mid are by far the winners here Skald hammer style will make melee trains super scary and vastly superior to other melee trains. Thane being buffed well doesn't change a ton but they could make for great healing guard in that they can cast until melee gets close then stun/guard/damage any melee that comes up. Seems really nice.

The survey didn't reflect these changes, paladins the most UP of albs by a lot and got nothing, while Scouts remain the same (that change wasn't a change that makes any difference) but it was minstrels that had 26% say they were an issue, id drop their weapon table or something (still gonna be OP). Wardens got two new skills they cannot use more than a few times in a short fight (30% of people said they were the weakest by far the most UP class in any realm per the survey) (for op there are 3 or 4 that are really high for hib i'll take that as no standout issues). Thane was the clear weakling of Mid and it has been assisted, BD were still listed as the big issue but they just got nerffed so idk about that still.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:15 AM by evert
survey: "would you like more pve content?"
announcement: "we will implement full classic ToA from Monday"
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:17 AM by Amarath
labra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:30 AM
Ok I wasn't expetcting this.

I've read all previous posts and even if I disagree with most of them who are quite stuck in the "I don't want any change" meta, I have to say some changes are a bit too much and needs to find counterpart, or keep them at least.

First of all, I don't play any classes so feel free to lecture me regarding any classes, I don't mind, as long as it stays polite of course.
I play mainly reaver and friar (melee oriented). I had a melee warden wich is in the locker currently since it wasn't good at all and didn't fit the healing meta.
I still have a vw somewhere, trying to land a pve style without any to hit bonus or hoping for a parry/evade.

I will try to talk about style changes overall and specifically to the above classes.
...

I agree in general i think the issues are actually with the tanks and light tanks (mercs, BM, etc). That appears to be what most people are taking issue with. Friars, VW, and thanes being stronger (savage a bit) isn't the end of the game by any measure (i don't think wardens are save in pve for bonus healing). As i don't know much about the Normal tank, light tank styles between realms i cannot say how this change impacts them. Do you know? (Or anyone?)
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:30 AM by Ormilig
Why are people complaining about "Snare on everyone"? Everything thats getting picked up by a rvr group, that can use styles, already has a Snare. Reaver has a Snare, Savage has a Snare. The only class that doesnt have a Snare(style) which is used in RvR-GROUPS is the Valewalker and guess what? It doesn't get a Snare.

For Zerggameplay, which i think is what most of the people wirting on this topic prefer, these changes will change absolutly nothing at all. It will have a greater impact on solo-gameplay, i agree. But as already has been said, they will monitor the obvious candidates for overpowered settings.

How often did you see a Mid with Axe or Sword? How often did you see ANY Hib melee with blunt spec? I think in the almost 2 years of phoenix, i can add this up to about 7 times Why is it a problem when those speclines get a buff which makes them competative to the current default(as in the only option) spec?

Class/Realm identity wont change at all - you might even create more with these changes. Like for example Thane with his energyDD-Styles, Friars with their Heal-Styles.

We will see what these changes will bring. I'll predict a huge amount of Hib-Tankers trying the Warden debuff style and then realizing that they have to either loose some heal and/or red body resists for that. Alb caster groups will be happy about that. For Mids it doesn't change anything. I doubt you will see more Thanes in rvr even though i'd really like that

Oh and btw, in what universe is a nerf to melee snares a buff to castergroups? You can move faster while beeing snared for a lesser amount of time - yea huge caster buff
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:34 AM by Abattoir
Id like to try these changes!

interesting, time for a shake up

when is the next rvr leveling event now ?!?!
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:35 AM by fleshcutter
Strikejk wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:18 AM
Beeblebrox wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 3:07 AM
Didn't the friar have more spec points when these changes were in effect? If I recall friars had 1.8 rather than 1.5. Does the change make sense without the extra spec points?

Not only that. Those style changes came with 1.91
There have been numerous massive changes to the entire game before and with 1.91 compared to what we have on here. The style changes were done with those other changes in mind. What we have here are style changes that were made for a game we don't have. This isn't daoc 1.91.
Its 1.65 with custom changes

I could spent hours here explaining the difference between 1.65 daoc and 1.91 daoc but I'm sure every experienced daoc player here has an idea how different the game was that was the groundwork for these style changes.

I do like the switch away from the growrate system but that's about it sadly.
If that style system comes, we need to seriously re-evaluate all changes that have been made till 1.91 and consider implementing them as well, not all, but definitely a good portion. Otherwise this will become a big balance mess.

So then you agree that scouts root should be removed from the game.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:38 AM by Forlornhope
Ormilig wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:30 AM
Why are people complaining about "Snare on everyone"? Everything thats getting picked up by a rvr group, that can use styles, already has a Snare. Reaver has a Snare, Savage has a Snare. The only class that doesnt have a Snare(style) which is used in RvR-GROUPS is the Valewalker and guess what? It doesn't get a Snare.

For Zerggameplay, which i think is what most of the people wirting on this topic prefer, these changes will change absolutly nothing at all. It will have a greater impact on solo-gameplay, i agree. But as already has been said, they will monitor the obvious candidates for overpowered settings.

How often did you see a Mid with Axe or Sword? How often did you see ANY Hib melee with blunt spec? I think in the almost 2 years of phoenix, i can add this up to about 7 times Why is it a problem when those speclines get a buff which makes them competative to the current default(as in the only option) spec?

Class/Realm identity wont change at all - you might even create more with these changes. Like for example Thane with his energyDD-Styles, Friars with their Heal-Styles.

We will see what these changes will bring. I'll predict a huge amount of Hib-Tankers trying the Warden debuff style and then realizing that they have to either loose some heal and/or red body resists for that. Alb caster groups will be happy about that. For Mids it doesn't change anything. I doubt you will see more Thanes in rvr even though i'd really like that

Oh and btw, in what universe is a nerf to melee snares a buff to castergroups? You can move faster while beeing snared for a lesser amount of time - yea huge caster buff

Honestly I plan on running blunt warden for groups/small man. Rear snare+ heal debuff style I think will be pretty fun. And I don't have to spec as high into blades to get the styles I want. Do I hear warden MA for s's and g's?! LOL plus I will still be able to get some heals out there and maybe even some solo play in at that. Bet you never expected to see a blunt warden on this server. But I agree with a lot of what you said, shaking up the meta is generally what keeps things interesting. I was totally against a lot of this at first until I started thinking about some of the fun I and others could have trying new things out.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:38 AM by Noashakra
Ormilig wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:30 AM
Why are people complaining about "Snare on everyone"? Everything thats getting picked up by a rvr group, that can use styles, already has a Snare. Reaver has a Snare, Savage has a Snare. The only class that doesnt have a Snare(style) which is used in RvR-GROUPS is the Valewalker and guess what? It doesn't get a Snare.

Foxfire
Level
12
To Hit Bonus
15
Defense Bonus
0
Requirement
Positional: Back
Damage per Level
2
Damage at 12
48
Damage at 65
154
Damage at 74
172
Endurance
5

Hindered
Level
50
Duration
12s
Target
Enemy
Type
Snare
Value
40

So you didn't even read. Good to know.

How often did you see a Mid with Axe or Sword? How often did you see ANY Hib melee with blunt spec? I think in the almost 2 years of phoenix, i can add this up to about 7 times Why is it a problem when those speclines get a buff which makes them competative to the current default(as in the only option) spec?

So buff thoses lines, no need to change everything.

Oh and btw, in what universe is a nerf to melee snares a buff to castergroups? You can move faster while beeing snared for a lesser amount of time - yea huge caster buff

A caster kitting 20% faster and being able to overextend your tank faster is not a problem?
I play caster group, and yeah it's huge.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:48 AM by Ormilig
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:38 AM
...
So you didn"t even read

My bad, checked the Charplaner but aparently i had an old cachced Version. Yes he gets a backsnare.

A caster kitting 20% faster and being able to overextend your tank faster is not a problem?
I play caster group, and yeah it's huge.

And his backline can also move 20% faster when snared.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:50 AM by Noashakra
There is usually only one peel in caster group and it's usually focused on helping his mages to breath.
You can root the back line while you can't do that with tanks.
So tank groups will suffer the most of this change.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:54 AM by Ormilig
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:50 AM
There is usually only one peel in caster group and it's usually focused on helping his mages to breath.
You can root the back line while you can't do that with tanks.
So tank groups will suffer the most of this change.

Thats a good one

Hib caster group peeler:
Bard, Warden, Hero

Alb caster group peeler:
Friar, Arms/Pala, Minstrel

Mid caster/hybrid group peeler:
Warrior, Skald, (Zerk/Svg)
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:58 AM by inoeth
nice nice nice i really really like this!
even though some classes will go through the roof, over all i think this is great

Oo VW+warden OP
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:58 AM by Noashakra
Not all group have a warden, in fact, if you want a good assist, it's warden or bm/hero. If you group is kitting and the bard is peeling the back line, he is dead meat...

Also, if you move 20% faster, it's easier to create space between casters to doom a tank during the kite.

even though some classes will go through the roof, over all i think this is great

Fri 16 Oct 2020 9:17 AM by Ormilig
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:58 AM
Not all group have a warden, in fact, if you want a good assist, it's warden or bm/hero. If you group is kitting and the bard is peeling the back line, he is dead meat...

Also, if you move 20% faster, it's easier to create space between casters to doom a tank during the kite.


Sure, but then the group decided to only have a hero as a peeler - doesn't change the fact that a good bard and warden can also peel stuff.

And its not only you that moves faster, so does the peeled enemy - you wont get away from a backsnare spamming guy just like you cant get away now.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 9:30 AM by shanitox
Well... This is no more classic like experience.

Cya !
Fri 16 Oct 2020 9:37 AM by Ele
I rummaged through some posts in this thread and only took a brief look at the charplanner, so some of the things I'm gonna say might have been said already, but reading all 122 posts is a bit too much right now. xD
With implementing this system, many problems are adressed. Most mid weapon lines get snares and become viable that way. Same goes for alb and hib base weapon lines, lw, dw, and I think this is an improvement, promoting some variety in weapon choices. But a few things I'd regard as problematic.
One thing is that in the initial announcement of style changes it was said that
gruenesschaf wrote: Iconic attributes of chains will remain(.)
Taken literally, this was said about chains only and I read it as Iconic styles itself, like arms anytime snare, merc front style etc., which is a mistake I made. It is not a big deal that these get changed, sure, but it kind of saddens me to lose those styles that pretty much defined a class.
The second thing that troubles me is the implementation of a huge variety of special procs. AF Debuff, Crit buff. heal buff/debuff, heal styles all together sound a bit over the top when the initial approach to the style change was buffing underplayed lines. In my opinion it would be wise to delay the introduction of this special effects or even skip this part completely, as most of the effects are not necessary. Savage, Zerker, VW already deal enough dmg and don't need an AF Debuff in one of their lines, and skald is one of the most played classes anyway, no need to buff them by granting them the crit buff/reflect effect. For warden and friar, I think some of the effects like weaponskill buff or some heal styles might be ok, although I'd say - despite of being against it before - it would be easier to fix warden by granting shield spec than by introducing effects that are difficult to balance.
Conclusion:
I appreciate the changes to underutilized spec lines, but I oppose the introduction of most special effect styles.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 9:55 AM by poplik
A lot has been said but one thing to consider is that if the goal was to make every spec line viable, this will not help it. Each class still has one best spec, only in some cases it will shift to different line, causing a need to respec / retemplate.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:16 AM by Tubby
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 6:11 AM
Devs, please, DO NOT CAVE TO THE CRYBABIES WHO HATE ANY CHANGE!

Valewalker clearly.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:30 AM by byron
Sorry guys, I havem't read all messages so maybe it is stupid :
Since now my zerk is hammer+left axe because hammer is the only weapon with some utility styles (snares) and , after these changes, I would like to go axe for example (I didn't check the styles yet) , there will be a NPC that will swap my hammer to an axe with the same characteristics (stats, resists, proc) ? Since my weapons are rogs, I would be impossible to buy a new crafted weapon and swap it. On official servers they give this opportunity if you want to change artifact type for example (from Malice axe to Malice hammer).
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:30 AM by Sathariel
Please consider giving Friar the 1.8 skill-point modifier now.
I see troubles with builds that incorporate high staff now.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:30 AM by Amarath
Ormilig wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:30 AM
We will see what these changes will bring. I'll predict a huge amount of Hib-Tankers trying the Warden debuff style and then realizing that they have to either loose some heal and/or red body resists for that. Alb caster groups will be happy about that. For Mids it doesn't change anything. I doubt you will see more Thanes in rvr even though i'd really like that
I agree with most of this post. And i am trying to figure out what most people are taking issue with regarding light tank and tank styles.

I doubt they try the warden thing (to any degree) ... maybe probably not. Reason being after skalds style in only caster groups have a fair chance. 25% crit and 25% melee damage reflect makes mids the only viable melee realm.

Also the warden can only apply that debuff to 2-3 targets ina fight (unless it last a longer time). Its 90 end or 68 if spec ~30-36 into the reduction. Thats an insane amount . Furthermore if they use the high damage skill it can remove it. Its good, but would you rather your warden up there or in the back healing and then peeling? The answer even on live (where they have even better styles along with those) is heal and peel.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:33 AM by fleshcutter
shanitox wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 9:30 AM
Well... This is no more classic like experience.

Cya !

Can i have your loot?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:35 AM by Amarath
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:38 AM
Honestly I plan on running blunt warden for groups/small man. Rear snare+ heal debuff style I think will be pretty fun.

Just be careful that heal debuff need to be applied to the target DOING THE HEALING. (Thats how the same skill works on live.)
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:37 AM by shanitox
fleshcutter wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:33 AM
shanitox wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 9:30 AM
Well... This is no more classic like experience.

Cya !

Can i have your loot?


I’ll be back in a month until they backpedal.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:39 AM by Tamy
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 9:29 PM
With the vote clearly in favor of making the weapon lines usable quite a few changes would be required, there were basically two choices
1) Go from the current 1.65 styles and add the required elements to each line as needed
2) Take a more recent set of styles as the starting point where those changes have already been done

We now went with the second option for a couple reasons
1) The common sense / required changes to make each weapon line at least somewhat viable (meaning a side or rear snare in 8v8 for example) are already in
2) Some new toys that make stuff a bit more interesting
3) Chains have already been reduced to usually 2 with a handful 3 part chains
4) Icons / requirements indicator will match the style again

Timeline
The update is planned for Monday.
/respec all will become free for a while
The char planner has already been updated to reflect the new styles, please note that this is still a work in progress and it may contain some weirdness or not reflect some changes.
There will be a couple issues regarding effects and especially tooltips, those should be resolved rather quickly for the most part though. Please note that due to a technical limitation styles that have more than one effect will only show one and it'll be random (determined at server start) which one will show, it will take a while to resolve the technical limitation here. In total this should affect only about 20ish styles (out of about 1300). The char planner will always show all effects.

As for the new toys, there were a total of 6 new concepts, one of them was discarded for a simpler implementation:
The discarded one first: your damage dealt against this target is increased by x will be a your damage is increased by x, this was at most 5% and for a simpler implementation this will become a simple self melee dps buff (like svg dps self buff)

Damage reflect: Will reduce the damage by the listed % and reflect that amount back at the attacker, your damage taken message will include the damage before the reduction by reflection. Example with 100 damage attack and 25% reflect: You are hit by xy for 100 damage! You reflect 25 damage back at xy!
The actual / only usage here is in a skald hammer style with a 5 second 25% damage reflect for the group.

Melee crit chance buff: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is a 25% crit group buff for 5 seconds in the same hammer style that also has the damage reflect.

Armor effectiveness debuff: Acts similar to an af debuff, actual usage is at most 5% which thanks to variance makes this not noticable.

Heal effectiveness buff / debuff: Should be rather self explanatory, actual usage is a warden style with a 50% heal effectiveness buff and a target 50% heal effectiveness debuff as follow up.

Effect Removal: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is for a specific warden style combo where one style does low damage but debuffs the target and another style does very high damage but removes this debuff from the target with the opener for both giving you a weapon skill buff which is also removed by this style.

Changes
Changes to the new styles
Aside from omitting the shield line there were only 2 changes done to the styles so far:
The ranger frontal root style in cd is only a 40% snare
Stealth opener had their scaling slightly reduced to account for con debuff hitting before it, the scaling is still higher than what it is currently

Changes to existing styles:
The Scout only shield style Stop! has been reduced from 14 seconds to 10

Changes to damage tables:
Thane sword and axe have been raised from 18 to 19 to match hammer, this is the only case where a class had different damage table values for their lines.

Future Changes
Just like with NF RAs, this now represents a starting point for further adjustments.
The biggest candidate here is the warden 50% abs debuff and the warden 50% heal effectiveness debuff, aside from those two all effects are rather minor and/or very short in duration. Also please welcome our new scythe wielding overlords https://www.ignboards.com/threads/grasping-roots.250248012/
The damage delves, especially for the vw side follow up, will also be monitored closely.

A couple important points:
With the new styles pretty much all melee snares are now only 40% instead of 60% and pretty much all anytime snares have been removed.
Asp no longer has an increased melee range, it's now a normal anytimer detaunt.
All styles now use the "correct" style damage formula as we have the required values for the new styles, that means you will no longer see the growth rate. In order to make comparing the different styles easier, the char builder will include spec 65 and spec 74 as reference points, e. g. if one styles shows a 222 at spec 74 and another shows 350 then the 350 one does more damage.

Yeah, thanks for making my flex line clearly more usuable and eliminating a unique feature while giving me another completely useless detaunt (we still have one btw). The only thing that comes to my mind with all the recent changes is /ponder and /shrug.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:43 AM by fleshcutter
Tamy wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:39 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 9:29 PM
With the vote clearly in favor of making the weapon lines usable quite a few changes would be required, there were basically two choices
1) Go from the current 1.65 styles and add the required elements to each line as needed
2) Take a more recent set of styles as the starting point where those changes have already been done

We now went with the second option for a couple reasons
1) The common sense / required changes to make each weapon line at least somewhat viable (meaning a side or rear snare in 8v8 for example) are already in
2) Some new toys that make stuff a bit more interesting
3) Chains have already been reduced to usually 2 with a handful 3 part chains
4) Icons / requirements indicator will match the style again

Timeline
The update is planned for Monday.
/respec all will become free for a while
The char planner has already been updated to reflect the new styles, please note that this is still a work in progress and it may contain some weirdness or not reflect some changes.
There will be a couple issues regarding effects and especially tooltips, those should be resolved rather quickly for the most part though. Please note that due to a technical limitation styles that have more than one effect will only show one and it'll be random (determined at server start) which one will show, it will take a while to resolve the technical limitation here. In total this should affect only about 20ish styles (out of about 1300). The char planner will always show all effects.

As for the new toys, there were a total of 6 new concepts, one of them was discarded for a simpler implementation:
The discarded one first: your damage dealt against this target is increased by x will be a your damage is increased by x, this was at most 5% and for a simpler implementation this will become a simple self melee dps buff (like svg dps self buff)

Damage reflect: Will reduce the damage by the listed % and reflect that amount back at the attacker, your damage taken message will include the damage before the reduction by reflection. Example with 100 damage attack and 25% reflect: You are hit by xy for 100 damage! You reflect 25 damage back at xy!
The actual / only usage here is in a skald hammer style with a 5 second 25% damage reflect for the group.

Melee crit chance buff: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is a 25% crit group buff for 5 seconds in the same hammer style that also has the damage reflect.

Armor effectiveness debuff: Acts similar to an af debuff, actual usage is at most 5% which thanks to variance makes this not noticable.

Heal effectiveness buff / debuff: Should be rather self explanatory, actual usage is a warden style with a 50% heal effectiveness buff and a target 50% heal effectiveness debuff as follow up.

Effect Removal: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is for a specific warden style combo where one style does low damage but debuffs the target and another style does very high damage but removes this debuff from the target with the opener for both giving you a weapon skill buff which is also removed by this style.

Changes
Changes to the new styles
Aside from omitting the shield line there were only 2 changes done to the styles so far:
The ranger frontal root style in cd is only a 40% snare
Stealth opener had their scaling slightly reduced to account for con debuff hitting before it, the scaling is still higher than what it is currently

Changes to existing styles:
The Scout only shield style Stop! has been reduced from 14 seconds to 10

Changes to damage tables:
Thane sword and axe have been raised from 18 to 19 to match hammer, this is the only case where a class had different damage table values for their lines.

Future Changes
Just like with NF RAs, this now represents a starting point for further adjustments.
The biggest candidate here is the warden 50% abs debuff and the warden 50% heal effectiveness debuff, aside from those two all effects are rather minor and/or very short in duration. Also please welcome our new scythe wielding overlords https://www.ignboards.com/threads/grasping-roots.250248012/
The damage delves, especially for the vw side follow up, will also be monitored closely.

A couple important points:
With the new styles pretty much all melee snares are now only 40% instead of 60% and pretty much all anytime snares have been removed.
Asp no longer has an increased melee range, it's now a normal anytimer detaunt.
All styles now use the "correct" style damage formula as we have the required values for the new styles, that means you will no longer see the growth rate. In order to make comparing the different styles easier, the char builder will include spec 65 and spec 74 as reference points, e. g. if one styles shows a 222 at spec 74 and another shows 350 then the 350 one does more damage.

Yeah, thanks for making my flex line clearly more usuable and eliminating a unique feature while giving me another completely useless detaunt (we still have one btw). The only thing that comes to my mind with all the recent changes is /ponder and /shrug.

It's pretty funny that this will be a huge nerf to some classes. But doesn't really touch the classes that was voted to be absolutely overpowered in the recent poll.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:04 AM by ision
@gruenesschaf

this damage reflect/reduce/Crit buff style: how does it react to spells/ ae spells (pbae+gtaoe)/ dots? does the reflected damage interrupt the casters?
some writing melee reflect but neither in your entry post nor the char planner is mentioned if its melee only

ty in advance
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:19 AM by Rov
Some of these changes are completly uneccesary to be honest.

Spec lines that were already working just fine had to get changed for no reason?

I can understand nerfing asp style on reavers, but why would you give them a lvl 44 side chain style ?

Friars with valewalker side chain all of a sudden? wtf

Would've been lovely if it was only certain speclines that were changed, like giving zerker a side stun since merc + bm has access to slam seem fair to me.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:36 AM by Beeblebrox
It would be nice to have a test server to try these changes on. Whether we have a test server or not, I would like to give these changes try. I'm sure the devs will reevaluate and make further adjustments.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:39 AM by Solong
when i read the survey.. i never ever thougt, that you touch good lines when making other Weapon lines more useful
pls reconcider this changes.. this is going to be worse
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:52 AM by DJ2000
From a Hib perspective:

So for a Warden its
34 Blunt - 45 Nurture - 33 Regrowth for the OP "Heal Eff. Debuff" (which will be nerfed, 100% sure on this)
or
40 Blades - 45/47/48 Nurture - 26/22/20 Regrowth

For a Valewalker its
39 Scythe - 50/43 Arbo - 18/31 Parry (Playstyle Changes for the VW thanks to this change)

For a Champion its
Unchanged mostly. Less Back-Stun duration, but side snare added. Front-Dps went up, stuns mostly with afterfollow-parry in 1v1.

For a Blademaster its
CD mostly unchanged. Blunt Anytimer with 10 toHit and 10sec Stun at 50...wtf

For a Bard its
Unchanged. Blunt still has after parry Styles on a class with no Parry...

For a Hero its
LW back-Stun is now a followup to a Back-Snare. Side snare added and better Frontal-Dps. No after Evade.
CS BAck chain is cut off to Back-Snare only. Side chain at 44-50 still highest/best Dps chain. Another side chain added at 18+25 with a afterfollow stun. Frontal seems useless.
Solo LW > CS. Grp CS > LW

For a Nightshade its
CS has now: non-stealth backside Stun, non-stealth Side Stun chain with good Dps. Garrote snare gone, is now Anytimer (no effect) chain into Armor debuff with -10 Def Malus on both. All the Dps is now in After Evade 3-chain.
CD has now: apart from the back-Snare at 21 the entire CD-Styles are rather useless now when compared to CS styles. CD is the only means for a Back-Snare as a Nightshade. Envenom (disease+snare) makes this line almost useless. So its only for the swing chance now + Back snare.
Pierce vs Blades:
After Evade-> 20-Bleed on afterevade at 25 and a Snare-Stun(8sec) chain at 29-44 with Pierce is inferior to 20-Bleed on afterevade at 21 and snare-Stun(6sec) chain at 25-29 with Blades.
Anytimer -> 10 ToHit/10 Def bonus on Anytimer at 34 (followup at 50 with 15 toHit/5 Def) with Pierce is superior to 10 toHit/0 Def Anytimer at 44 with Blades.
Back -> rather useless medium Damage chain at 12-18 with Pierce is inferior to 32-bleed stack on followup chain with good Dps at 34-50 with Blades.
Side -> Snare into 26-Bleed stack at 21-39 with Pierce is superior to snare into slowed at 10-15, but not by much (depends on CD and CS)
Frontal -> pierce has a frontal chain but its less usefull than the pierce anytimer(chain), blades has no frontal.

If you go pierce, go high pierce as the after evade is at 44. But u will get more usability as Pierce complements the CS line better than Blades, Style-wise.
If you go Blades, even lower levels is fine as u get the after evade at 29, which frees up skill points for other lines. The rather late back-chain is more PvE than RvR, as a fleeing target should get snared (CD 21) if not already poisoned. It also remains to be the better Damage type.
Another Note: Assassins now rule the Melee-Snare-Kite Game thanks to lowered snare value of 40% and the use of Poisons.

For a Ranger its
Archer Build
CD -> Evade only offers Stun as a followup at high lvls 33+, Anytimers offer nothing usefull, Side offers Stun at 18(5sec), Back offers snare at 21, Frontal offers a snare at 35
Blades -> Evade offers snare at 25 with a stun(6sec.) at 29 as followup, anytime offers nothing, back offer snare at 34, side offers snare at 10
Pierce -> Evade offers snare at 29 with a stun(6sec.) at 44 as followup, anytime offers nothing, back offer snare at 12, side offers snare at 21
Basically unchanged. Side stun 18 CD into Side Snare 10 Blades.

Melee Build
CD -> Evade offers a good Dps Af debuff into Stun(4sec) chain at 25-33, a mediocre anytimer at 34, a very strong and high DPs Back Snare-Snare chain at 21-50. Frontal has also good Dps Snare-Slowed chain at 34-39 with no def malus attached, side offers the side stun(5sec) with 20-Bleeding stack.
Pierce and Blades get mostly outclassed by the CD styles. Pick for Damage type or go for Pierce anytime chain at 34-50 that still has lower dps than the CD frontal.

I never Played these style changes on live DaoC as i was mostly gone at that point.

Long story short: My takeaway from this is
VW ++
Warden +
NS (Assassins in general) +
BM +
Ranger (melee) +
Hero and Champ +/-
Bard 0
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:56 AM by Roto23
Drunkstains wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:51 PM
Can you redo the survey but instead of having this misleading question:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?

Yes: 923/1461 (63%)
No: 514/1461 (35%)

Change you change it to:

Base Weapon Lines
Do you think we should overhaul all weapon lines and made a copy of what live did when they overhauled the style system?

If you are more up front with your intentions on these questions we can answer them better. I guarantee you wont be getting a 63% in favor of yes

I think this guy put it correctly. That question was more like bait then a question.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:02 PM by Sepplord
Ormilig wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 9:17 AM
And its not only you that moves faster, so does the peeled enemy - you wont get away from a backsnare spamming guy just like you cant get away now.
True, but when someone is out of position it will still alow him to reposition faster than before. It will be easier to come into/stay in supportrange while the castergroup is kiting and one or two of their members are snared.
According to your arguments logic, we could just up snares to 80% movementspeed reduction and nothing would change because both still move at the same speed relatively to each other...that's obviously not the case, and the same applies to a snare-nerf

Amarath wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:30 AM
I doubt they try the warden thing (to any degree) ... maybe probably not. Reason being after skalds style in only caster groups have a fair chance. 25% crit and 25% melee damage reflect makes mids the only viable melee realm.
One thing to keep in mind is that those proccs have a 5second duration, while being applied by the third style in a chain.
Hitting a 3-chain is unlikely on phoenix due to the way streakprotection and RNG is coded. When the style overhaul was mentioned the plan was to reduce all stylechains from 4or3 chains to have maximum 2-chains.
After thinking more about this, i don't think these new proccs (all of the ones that are 3chain) will be viable as they aren't reliably performable.
It is a change that goes against the initial goal completely
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:04 PM by Strikejk
labra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:30 AM
Reaver
best dps style have been tuned down but isn't dead.

Yes, yes it is. There is a reason in the german daoc wiki there is an EXTRA note on specs for the reaver, that with 1.91 people do not go 50 flex anymore cause levi sucks way to hard to justify those points. The style literally died.

Furthermore the lifetap got almost twice as powerful (and reaver has 2 of them), which is completely neglected here. Those lifetaps are there to counterbalance the massive damage reduction done by the levi nerf. Imagine ANY OTHER style being nerfed by over 30% in damage, how on earth can you call that "fine"?

If they nerf levi, ok, give me what the reaver got instead. Give me the more powerful lifetaps, give me RR5, give me the ML8 abilities. Give me Overcaps and ToA bonus for a way easier time achieving cap swing speed and increased levi damage. Give me celerity combo with Paladin. Where are those?
Reaver get a nerf from the future that was based on abilities we don't have on this server.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:14 PM by Roto23
Tyrlaan wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 11:11 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:49 PM
Bry wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:36 PM
This will be 100% alb favored, mark my words.

Did you read the warden changes ?

Did you read the Skald changes?

Hammer style to reduce melee damage taken by 25% for the whole group and reflect that damage back to the attacker - 5 seconds duration.
Hammer style to raise melee crit chance by 25% for the whole group (and every Mid group with tanks runs a Skald) - 5 seconds duration.

This is going to change solo (Skald), smallman and 8man a lot more than debuffing heals on your enemy or a chain that deals some bonus damage.
This is making Hammer even more of a must-have spec than it is already.

This is a nerf to solo skalds who like to spec axe
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:17 PM by Couma1990
Gotta agree with most of the previous posts....

Phoenix was advertised as classic , thats what lured people to join it, even in the beta-phase which was basically a giantic wasted of time, and most
knew it back then.... cause we are now on a server that couldnt be further from classic or even what beta looked like. (5k players now down to 1,2k in primtime)

The impending changes have nothing to do with the survey , changing the whole melee system while the only thing people wanted to see was upgrading
of useless lines.

and finally balance , there have been balancing problems all over the place, and instead of trying to make minor tweaks to get already implemented stuff
correctly into play, they just add more untested, unwanted changes in a pace that wont allow to understand what f´ed up the balance/server this time.

Don´t get me wrong, I absolutely appreciate their effort and that they are willing to test new things, but as many previous posts stated, 1 step at a time, or u won´t be
able to really spot upcoming problems and there are still problems unsolved which just get covered by new problems.... not what I voted for eigther, sry.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:19 PM by labra
Strikejk wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:04 PM
labra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:30 AM
Reaver
best dps style have been tuned down but isn't dead.

Yes, yes it is. There is a reason in the german daoc wiki there is an EXTRA note on specs for the reaver, that with 1.91 people do not go 50 flex anymore cause levi sucks way to hard to justify those points. The style literally died.

Furthermore the lifetap got almost twice as powerful (and reaver has 2 of them), which is completely neglected here. Those lifetaps are there to counterbalance the massive damage reduction done by the levi nerf. Imagine ANY OTHER style being nerfed by over 30% in damage, how on earth can you call that "fine"?

If they nerf levi, ok, give me what the reaver got instead. Give me the more powerful lifetaps, give me RR5, give me the ML8 abilities. Give me Overcaps and ToA bonus for a way easier time achieving cap swing speed and increased levi damage. Give me celerity combo with Paladin. Where are those?
Reaver get a nerf from the future that was based on abilities we don't have on this server.

A class should not rely on a single style .
Leviathan still remain quite powerfull. Less than before, I agree but this style revamp brings back the level 44 wich is better
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:25 PM by Bradekes
I'm thinking they went with this idea because coming up with and manually adjusting 1300 potential styles was too much for them...

Maybe y'all need to calm down and give them a break
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:30 PM by Roto23
what does this mean....
Damage at 44
Damage at 65
Damage at 74

Does the 44,65,74 represent composite weapon skill?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:31 PM by Forlornhope
Amarath wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:35 AM
Forlornhope wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 8:38 AM
Honestly I plan on running blunt warden for groups/small man. Rear snare+ heal debuff style I think will be pretty fun.

Just be careful that heal debuff need to be applied to the target DOING THE HEALING. (Thats how the same skill works on live.)

Thanks for the input, will keep it in mind
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:32 PM by Vkejai
Hi , is there a list of the style changes so far I can view please ?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:33 PM by labra
Roto23 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:30 PM
what does this mean....
Damage at 44
Damage at 65
Damage at 74

Does the 44,65,74 represent composite weapon skill?
that's the damage the style will do with composite spec, level 74 is RR 14+11 on gear and 50 specced pts
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:36 PM by Lerox
I personally would like to see some style changes but adopt to live styles is probably not the correct way.
I never played live so I can't really say how those styles will really affect the playstyles but from what I read there few styles which could cause trouble.
Regarding to balancing afterwards it might come that people will complain about classes which are OP or have too OP styles.

Adopting live styles is possibly easier than change the current styles to be more viable but in fact people expected that missing snares were added and chain styles will be reduced so it won't be too hard to get them out.

Maybe it won't be as bad as some of us think but it is a big change and it could cause that people have to redo their templates because the best weaponstyles shifted.
It would have been nice if you announced it as a test so people could vote again afterwards.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:42 PM by Arthoras
Wow ... just ...

So I usually stay out of all issues in the forum because I don't like the tone and the culture of discussion. However, this is really so bad that I would like to say something. I haven't read every single change. I felt sick enough after reading the changes to my class ...

I really appreciate the server and the work you are doing on it and, like many others, I have probably spent hundreds of hours on the server. That is exactly where I see the problem. You call the whole thing style changes…. But that's not it anymore. When I first read about Stylechanges, I thought it was going to be just that. They sure change the growth rate of a few styles. Maybe they weaken a few outliners and strengthen a few things that are rarely used. That'll be cool for sure.

Now the changes are here and it is ... that what you are selling here as a style change is a complete change to every melee and hybrid class. Melee and hybrid classes are almost completely defined by their style lines. Many of us have put hundreds (if not thousands) of hours into character and development to play a class we love. But now you're changing the whole class concept. This is just utter shit. I can't think of a more polite way of saying it. With these changes, you're taking away the classes we've been working on and replacing them with something we probably won't like. So everything we have invested is simply negated. I think that's wrong.

I mean ... I'll take my class as an example now. I play hero as a counter class solo. I love the reactive styles that build on the opponent's parry and block. You have removed these styles completely and without replacement. These are normal After Parry styles now. The whole LW line is now a normal, boring weapon line with no unique selling points. The part why I played the class is gone. So why should I still want to play this?

And that is also the case with other classes ... The Polearmsman loses his Anytime Snare ... Garotte no longer snares ... All double weapon lines are basically the same ... This is not a change! You're selling us a completely different game in a forum post! You just take our game and the characters we have created away from us! That is intolerable! This is no longer Daoc ... the style changes on the live server were lousy ... but this is even worse. This based on a survey with a question that did not suggest any kind of changes of this size is gross deception! It's just unbelievable what you are planning here.

I'm sorry ... I'm really angry and I quickly forget myself. I don't want to offend anyone here. I just find the changes totally rash and unfair.

But to cut a long story short: I don't know what about others, but I am just not sure if i want to play this... Who will tell me if I choose a different class or another weaponline now and invest hundreds of hours again that you won't take it away from me again? It's too risky for me.

And the simple ability to respec is a lousy refund... who will pay for a new template to test other weaponlines? who will go featherfarming to buy new weapons? who will do that again when you destroy the next weaponline in a few month?

My English is not the best i hope my points got clear anyways.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:46 PM by gotwqqd
Lerox wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:36 PM
I personally would like to see some style changes but adopt to live styles is probably not the correct way.
I never played live so I can't really say how those styles will really affect the playstyles but from what I read there few styles which could cause trouble.
Regarding to balancing afterwards it might come that people will complain about classes which are OP or have too OP styles.

Adopting live styles is possibly easier than change the current styles to be more viable but in fact people expected that missing snares were added and chain styles will be reduced so it won't be too hard to get them out.

Maybe it won't be as bad as some of us think but it is a big change and it could cause that people have to redo their templates because the best weaponstyles shifted.
It would have been nice if you announced it as a test so people could vote again afterwards.
Turn all gear player made with +weapon x to
+all weapons
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:46 PM by Lizard517
In the opening of this post you say the VOTE is in. What people filled out was a survey. I doubt they realized they were VOTING for massive changes in how they play their character. Where is the actual VOTE for this proposed change? I'm not much in the mood to remap my quick bars for a "Hey, let's try this!" approach only to have to remap again later. Positional styles and snares? I don't recall that option on the survey ... oh I'm sorry VOTE.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:50 PM by Roto23
labra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:33 PM
Roto23 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:30 PM
what does this mean....
Damage at 44
Damage at 65
Damage at 74

Does the 44,65,74 represent composite weapon skill?
that's the damage the style will do with composite spec, level 74 is RR 14+11 on gear and 50 specced pts

Thanks, the changes still suck though
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:00 PM by labra
Let's see how thing turn out

Devs might change their mind, or adjust some styles.

I'm still and will remain in favor of a large style change on actual classes because I want more diversity.

If the style change remain this way, I'll adjust and find way to enjoy my timeplay.

But I still suggest getting a style revamp for a more classic-era timeplay (1.93 patch)
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:02 PM by inoeth
i dont know why ppl think there is no diversity .... in fact there is no class that has the same styles as another class..... there are similarities but hey there were some before too
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:02 PM by Tubby
Tamy wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:39 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Thu 15 Oct 2020 9:29 PM
With the vote clearly in favor of making the weapon lines usable quite a few changes would be required, there were basically two choices
1) Go from the current 1.65 styles and add the required elements to each line as needed
2) Take a more recent set of styles as the starting point where those changes have already been done

We now went with the second option for a couple reasons
1) The common sense / required changes to make each weapon line at least somewhat viable (meaning a side or rear snare in 8v8 for example) are already in
2) Some new toys that make stuff a bit more interesting
3) Chains have already been reduced to usually 2 with a handful 3 part chains
4) Icons / requirements indicator will match the style again

Timeline
The update is planned for Monday.
/respec all will become free for a while
The char planner has already been updated to reflect the new styles, please note that this is still a work in progress and it may contain some weirdness or not reflect some changes.
There will be a couple issues regarding effects and especially tooltips, those should be resolved rather quickly for the most part though. Please note that due to a technical limitation styles that have more than one effect will only show one and it'll be random (determined at server start) which one will show, it will take a while to resolve the technical limitation here. In total this should affect only about 20ish styles (out of about 1300). The char planner will always show all effects.

As for the new toys, there were a total of 6 new concepts, one of them was discarded for a simpler implementation:
The discarded one first: your damage dealt against this target is increased by x will be a your damage is increased by x, this was at most 5% and for a simpler implementation this will become a simple self melee dps buff (like svg dps self buff)

Damage reflect: Will reduce the damage by the listed % and reflect that amount back at the attacker, your damage taken message will include the damage before the reduction by reflection. Example with 100 damage attack and 25% reflect: You are hit by xy for 100 damage! You reflect 25 damage back at xy!
The actual / only usage here is in a skald hammer style with a 5 second 25% damage reflect for the group.

Melee crit chance buff: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is a 25% crit group buff for 5 seconds in the same hammer style that also has the damage reflect.

Armor effectiveness debuff: Acts similar to an af debuff, actual usage is at most 5% which thanks to variance makes this not noticable.

Heal effectiveness buff / debuff: Should be rather self explanatory, actual usage is a warden style with a 50% heal effectiveness buff and a target 50% heal effectiveness debuff as follow up.

Effect Removal: Self explanatory, actual / only usage is for a specific warden style combo where one style does low damage but debuffs the target and another style does very high damage but removes this debuff from the target with the opener for both giving you a weapon skill buff which is also removed by this style.

Changes
Changes to the new styles
Aside from omitting the shield line there were only 2 changes done to the styles so far:
The ranger frontal root style in cd is only a 40% snare
Stealth opener had their scaling slightly reduced to account for con debuff hitting before it, the scaling is still higher than what it is currently

Changes to existing styles:
The Scout only shield style Stop! has been reduced from 14 seconds to 10

Changes to damage tables:
Thane sword and axe have been raised from 18 to 19 to match hammer, this is the only case where a class had different damage table values for their lines.

Future Changes
Just like with NF RAs, this now represents a starting point for further adjustments.
The biggest candidate here is the warden 50% abs debuff and the warden 50% heal effectiveness debuff, aside from those two all effects are rather minor and/or very short in duration. Also please welcome our new scythe wielding overlords https://www.ignboards.com/threads/grasping-roots.250248012/
The damage delves, especially for the vw side follow up, will also be monitored closely.

A couple important points:
With the new styles pretty much all melee snares are now only 40% instead of 60% and pretty much all anytime snares have been removed.
Asp no longer has an increased melee range, it's now a normal anytimer detaunt.
All styles now use the "correct" style damage formula as we have the required values for the new styles, that means you will no longer see the growth rate. In order to make comparing the different styles easier, the char builder will include spec 65 and spec 74 as reference points, e. g. if one styles shows a 222 at spec 74 and another shows 350 then the 350 one does more damage.

Yeah, thanks for making my flex line clearly more usuable and eliminating a unique feature while giving me another completely useless detaunt (we still have one btw). The only thing that comes to my mind with all the recent changes is /ponder and /shrug.

its a joke misleading and i feel robbed of a year of my life
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:03 PM by skipari
Roto23 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:30 PM
what does this mean....
Damage at 44
Damage at 65
Damage at 74

Does the 44,65,74 represent composite weapon skill?

The new formula is the following

STYLE_DAMAGE = (STYLE_BASE + (SPEC - STYLE_LEVEL) * STYLE_GROWTH)
* SWING_SPEED
* DAMAGE_MODIFIER / 10
+ BASE_DAMAGE * TOA_STYLE_BONUS

So if we take now double frost as example:

Doublefrost
Level 34
Damage per Level 2
Damage at 34 - 70
Damage at 65 - 132
Damage at 74 - 150

You now can use the values of the last to fill the formula, here "Level 34" = STYLE_LEVEL, "Damage per Level 2" = STYLE_GROWTH and the first Damage at, in this case "Damage at 34 - 70" is STYLE_BASE

Spec is the values in the table 34, 65, 74

makes:
(70 + (34 - 34) * 2) = 70
(70 + (65 - 34) * 2) = 132
(70 + (74 - 34) * 2) = 150

You basically modify this with your effective swingspeed (after quickness, haste, celerity has modified it) and the damage modifier (between 0-3, this is also were the variance comes in).

So for a fictional example with a RR5 Zerker we can use now a mainhand swingspeed of 2.5 seconds, and a damage modifier of 2 then we would get:

(70 + (65-34) *2) * 2.5 * 2 / 10 = 66

So 66 is your style bonus damage you get. To this we have to add the unstyled mainhand damage, which should be around 140ish with a 4.1 weapon and this modifier, makes a total style damage of 206.

Hope that explains it a bit.



---

PS:
Haven't went over many styles yet, but in general it seems anytimers lose around 5% damage in average and side/back get 2-3% added..
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:06 PM by Festers
labra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:19 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:04 PM
labra wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:30 AM
Reaver
best dps style have been tuned down but isn't dead.

Yes, yes it is. There is a reason in the german daoc wiki there is an EXTRA note on specs for the reaver, that with 1.91 people do not go 50 flex anymore cause levi sucks way to hard to justify those points. The style literally died.

Furthermore the lifetap got almost twice as powerful (and reaver has 2 of them), which is completely neglected here. Those lifetaps are there to counterbalance the massive damage reduction done by the levi nerf. Imagine ANY OTHER style being nerfed by over 30% in damage, how on earth can you call that "fine"?

If they nerf levi, ok, give me what the reaver got instead. Give me the more powerful lifetaps, give me RR5, give me the ML8 abilities. Give me Overcaps and ToA bonus for a way easier time achieving cap swing speed and increased levi damage. Give me celerity combo with Paladin. Where are those?
Reaver get a nerf from the future that was based on abilities we don't have on this server.

A class should not rely on a single style .
Leviathan still remain quite powerfull. Less than before, I agree but this style revamp brings back the level 44 wich is better

Please tell me how a 2 style side chain is ‘better’? Levi is still going to be the best way to pump out dps once a target is stunned or they present their back to you. Just face it, reducing the delve to 113 from 153 is a big big nerf for dps.

Reavers became over the top on live due to being able to template magic dmg/resist pierce, being able to debuff levi damage with legendary weapons and having access to one of the most powerful ML lines. None of this is available in Phoenix so the change is completely unwarranted. You can’t implement current ‘live’ styles without looking at the bigger picture as to why they were altered in the first place.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:09 PM by Slithic
Please. Do not do this.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:11 PM by kpax
great changes. for albs especially

maybe make reaver leviathan back combo and friar evade little less proc dmg(that evade dmg is crazy )

Overall slightly alb advance on dmg and styles in combnation with the ras.

classes with dd proc:
friar(op evade dmg/static)/pala(static/anger of god/wrath champion)/reaver(easymode backspam/twf)
vw(ichor/bedazzling)/champ(static/wrath of champ)
thane (static/wrath of champ)

i feel like daoc was made to favor albs ))

and if gms decide to bring rr5...i will lvl easymode sorc and play 4sorc/1cab setup ))...why make life hard
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:39 PM by Amarath
ision wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:04 AM
@gruenesschaf

this damage reflect/reduce/Crit buff style: how does it react to spells/ ae spells (pbae+gtaoe)/ dots? does the reflected damage interrupt the casters?
some writing melee reflect but neither in your entry post nor the char planner is mentioned if its melee only

ty in advance
its melee reflect
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:40 PM by Tubby
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:25 PM
I'm thinking they went with this idea because coming up with and manually adjusting 1300 potential styles was too much for them...

Maybe y'all need to calm down and give them a break

please dont give us give them a break... we voted on things that we thought were one thing but instead something completely different which breaks the final straw for this server being anything like classic tbh. and bringing in new styles for hybrids without the hybrid spell lines being changend also just craps on the hybrids.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:43 PM by Tubby
kpax wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:11 PM
great changes.

But u still keep reaver too strong. Its way too op to have still that kind of style on backstyle without any follow up. first advance is that reaver has way better chance to spam it casue in reality ppll run away so their back free. Vw needs stand front or side and its a follow up, which means he only can do it in stun only. Thane has is as follow up back style.

solution = make leviathan for reaver a follow up backstyle and its balanced out imo.

Great change for thane, which is a great balancing idea imo. Makes him now more interesting for grp rvr.

Ofc there will be always flames casue noone like give up advance, but overall its a good decision.

a 30% dmg nerf is way to OP still lol? your mental.... i assume you have been killed by Kamikaze way to much lately lol
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:43 PM by Amarath
DJ2000 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:52 AM
34 Blunt - 45 Nurture - 33 Regrowth for the OP "Heal Eff. Debuff" (which will be nerfed, 100% sure on this)

Nahh, thast debuff applies to the HEALER, so you have to get back line on them and its only on one and it costs 125 end to use so you may get 2 of them off and if the fight last a long time and extra 1-2 of them.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:45 PM by Higach
Tubby wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:40 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:25 PM
I'm thinking they went with this idea because coming up with and manually adjusting 1300 potential styles was too much for them...

Maybe y'all need to calm down and give them a break

please dont give us give them a break... we voted on things that we thought were one thing but instead something completely different which breaks the final straw for this server being anything like classic tbh. and bringing in new styles for hybrids without the hybrid spell lines being changend also just craps on the hybrids.

Just ignore those people.

If someone took down their pants, squatted over your dinner plate, and started pushing.. those would be the people saying "how do you know you won't like it? It isn't even out yet!"
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:46 PM by Shamissa
tommccartney wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 7:32 AM
Imagine Runemaster got the Underpowered vote.

Phoenix Team be like;
Hmmm we have options here.

1) Add a couple of spells to up its utility

2) MAKE IT A GOD DAMN WARLOCK !!!!!
Exactly , bring a god damn warlock already and Valkyrie to the game.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:48 PM by Amarath
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:02 PM
Amarath wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 10:30 AM
I doubt they try the warden thing (to any degree) ... maybe probably not. Reason being after skalds style in only caster groups have a fair chance. 25% crit and 25% melee damage reflect makes mids the only viable melee realm.
One thing to keep in mind is that those proccs have a 5second duration, while being applied by the third style in a chain.
Hitting a 3-chain is unlikely on phoenix due to the way streakprotection and RNG is coded. When the style overhaul was mentioned the plan was to reduce all stylechains from 4or3 chains to have maximum 2-chains.
After thinking more about this, i don't think these new proccs (all of the ones that are 3chain) will be viable as they aren't reliably performable.
It is a change that goes against the initial goal completely
No its a 2 chain, Frost hammer (side) -> Grand finale (this skill).
Therefore, i guess you think these are an issue now as the reason for you thinking they were not was only because their were a 3 chain... do you stand by your argument or were you just rationalizing your OPness?
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:52 PM by Couma1990
Arthoras wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:42 PM
I mean ... I'll take my class as an example now. I play hero as a counter class solo. I love the reactive styles that build on the opponent's parry and block. You have removed these styles completely and without replacement. These are normal After Parry styles now. The whole LW line is now a normal, boring weapon line with no unique selling points. The part why I played the class is gone. So why should I still want to play this?


I wanna add to that from a friar perspective. As most people might think its a huge and mostly positive change for friars, which it is not. Here are some available speccs
once the changes arrived: 50/ 43/ 2
50/ 42/ 7/ 6
44/ 45/ 19/ 4 (u can add the spellines to whatever number u like, it wont make any sense)

Non of these speccs is viable in groups or BG´s, as u eigther have no buffs (red self-dex is 45 enhance), or no heal at all. Same problem on side chain as VW´s have, breaking all CC. And grps is the only chance to apply that side chain (they take the already weak 3s after-evade stun off friars). And heal procs only heal the friar himself.
So it is a solo specc?! No, it isnt that eigther. Only chance to apply sidechain is by abusing client lagg, which affects people with weak connection the most. After parry 8s stun seems huge thing tho, right? No, it isnt. Even as of now, if u end up with 12 parry specced that is alot already, with rr10 combined thats 32 parry which translates to 15% parry chance if u are incredibly lucky, and only then. So u might never apply that one in PvP.

If they increase the multiplier on specc points to 1.8 like suggested it wont make most ppl specc into a useless 50staff, when u can have a full healspecc combined with a good melee specc the same time, making you basically OP. The only thing u really win is the celerity proc then, but u loose your only cc except for the backsnare. (side-stun not counted, for already mentioned reasons)

All that while friars are the only healers, except clerics, which u are now luring into a useless melee-specc destryoing their very grp nature.
I just dont see how they wanna fix/ balance that afterwards. It feels like they didnt really think about possbile speccs to those fancy changes.

PS: I might doubleposted this, as the first attempted failed for some reason.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:01 PM by Jarkheld
Please reconsider those changes!
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:04 PM by Festers
kpax wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:11 PM
great changes.

But u still keep reaver too strong. Its way too op to have still that kind of style on backstyle without any follow up. first advance is that reaver has way better chance to spam it casue in reality ppll run away so their back free. Vw needs stand front or side and its a follow up, which means he only can do it in stun only. Thane has is as follow up back style.

solution = make leviathan for reaver a follow up backstyle and its balanced out imo.

Great change for thane, which is a great balancing idea imo. Makes him now more interesting for grp rvr.

Ofc there will be always flames casue noone like give up advance, but overall its a good decision.

Solution = don’t present your back to a reaver that hasn’t been peeled/cc’d.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:05 PM by Amarath
Couma1990 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:52 PM
I wanna add to that from a friar perspective. As most people might think its a huge and mostly positive change for friars, which it is not. Here are some available speccs
once the changes arrived: 50/ 43/ 2
50/ 42/ 7/ 6
44/ 45/ 19/ 4 (u can add the spellines to whatever number u like, it wont make any sense)

You could go 34 or 39 staves. But 1.8 is prob needed to privde real benefits... atm its probably a bit of a damage buff and a nerf as a peeler. Reaver wasn't helped (when that change went in on live their LT could be buffed via gear) and nor was pala kinda a dark day for alb.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:09 PM by Forlornhope
Amarath wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:05 PM
Couma1990 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:52 PM
I wanna add to that from a friar perspective. As most people might think its a huge and mostly positive change for friars, which it is not. Here are some available speccs
once the changes arrived: 50/ 43/ 2
50/ 42/ 7/ 6
44/ 45/ 19/ 4 (u can add the spellines to whatever number u like, it wont make any sense)

You could go 34 or 39 staves. But 1.8 is prob needed to privde real benefits... atm its probably a bit of a damage buff and a nerf as a peeler.

It's definitely a buff for rejuv friars imo, 15 staff five second stun and they still have a snare at 18 staff. Can still go the same spec as before but with an additional tool.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:15 PM by Bradekes
Tubby wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 1:40 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 12:25 PM
I'm thinking they went with this idea because coming up with and manually adjusting 1300 potential styles was too much for them...

Maybe y'all need to calm down and give them a break

please dont give us give them a break... we voted on things that we thought were one thing but instead something completely different which breaks the final straw for this server being anything like classic tbh. and bringing in new styles for hybrids without the hybrid spell lines being changend also just craps on the hybrids.

Do you pay them to run this server? Would you like to come up with a brand new line of styles for every style line that doesn't get used? So yeah, give the devs a break this is a starting point that evens out styles across the realms better than the current state. It also addresses their desire to eliminate 3-4part chains. I don't think we need all these high delve dd styles but maybe those can be adjusted down to make it balanced.

I don't see the big deal. I also don't see how you expect them to do different
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:16 PM by darkstar00
DJ2000 wrote:
Fri 16 Oct 2020 11:52 AM
From a Hib perspective:

So for a Warden its
34 Blunt - 45 Nurture - 33 Regrowth for the OP "Heal Eff. Debuff" (which will be nerfed, 100% sure on this)
or
40 Blades - 45/47/48 Nurture - 26/22/20 Regrowth

For a Valewalker its
39 Scythe - 50/43 Arbo - 18/31 Parry (Playstyle Changes for the VW thanks to this change)

For a Champion its
Unchanged mostly. Less Back-Stun duration, but side snare added. Front-Dps went up, stuns mostly with afterfollow-parry in 1v1.

For a Blademaster its
CD mostly unchanged. Blunt Anytimer with 10 toHit and 10sec Stun at 50...wtf

For a Bard its
Unchanged. Blunt still has after parry Styles on a class with no Parry...

For a Hero its
LW back-Stun is now a followup to a Back-Snare. Side snare added and better Frontal-Dps. No after Evade.
CS BAck chain is cut off to Back-Snare only. Side chain at 44-50 still highest/best Dps chain. Another side chain added at 18+25 with a afterfollow stun. Frontal seems useless.
Solo LW > CS. Grp CS > LW

For a Nightshade its
CS has now: non-stealth backside Stun, non-stealth Side Stun chain with good Dps. Garrote snare gone, is now Anytimer (no effect) chain into Armor debuff with -10 Def Malus on both. All the Dps is now in After Evade 3-chain.
CD has now: apart from the back-Snare at 21 the entire CD-Styles are rather useless now when compared to CS styles. CD is the only means for a Back-Snare as a Nightshade. Envenom (disease+snare) makes this line almost useless. So its only for the swing chance now + Back snare.
Pierce vs Blades:
After Evade-> 20-Bleed on afterevade at 25 and a Snare-Stun(8sec) chain at 29-44 with Pierce is inferior to 20-Bleed on afterevade at 21 and snare-Stun(6sec) chain at 25-29 with Blades.
Anytimer -> 10 ToHit/10 Def bonus on Anytimer at 34 (followup at 50 with 15 toHit/5 Def) with Pierce is superior to 10 toHit/0 Def Anytimer at 44 with Blades.
Back -> rather useless medium Damage chain at 12-18 with Pierce is inferior to 32-bleed stack on followup chain with good Dps at 34-50 with Blades.
Side -> Snare into 26-Bleed stack at 21-39 with Pierce is superior to snare into slowed at 10-15, but not by much (depends on CD and CS)
Frontal -> pierce has a frontal chain but its less usefull than the pierce anytimer(chain), blades has no frontal.

If you go pierce, go high pierce as the after evade is at 44. But u will get more usability as Pierce complements the CS line better than Blades, Style-wise.
If you go Blades, even lower levels is fine as u get the after evade at 29, which frees up skill points for other lines. The rather late back-chain is more PvE than RvR, as a fleeing target should get snared (CD 21) if not already poisoned. It also remains to be the better Damage type.
Another Note: Assassins now rule the Melee-Snare-Kite Game thanks to lowered snare value of 40% and the use of Poisons.

For a Ranger its
Archer Build
CD -> Evade only offers Stun as a followup at high lvls 33+, Anytimers offer nothing usefull, Side offers Stun at 18(5sec), Back offers snare at 21, Frontal offers a snare at 35
Blades -> Evade offers snare at 25 with a stun(6sec.) at 29 as followup, anytime offers nothing, back offer snare at 34, side offers snare at 10
Pierce -> Evade offers snare at 29 with a stun(6sec.) at 44 as followup, anytime offers nothing, back offer snare at 12, side offers snare at 21
Basically unchanged. Side stun 18 CD into Side Snare 10 Blades.

Melee Build
CD -> Evade offers a good Dps Af debuff into Stun(4sec) chain at 25-33, a mediocre anytimer at 34, a very strong and high DPs Back Snare-Snare chain at 21-50. Frontal has also good Dps Snare-Slowed chain at 34-39 with no def malus attached, side offers the side stun(5sec) with 20-Bleeding stack.
Pierce and Blades get mostly outclassed by the CD styles. Pick for Damage type or go for Pierce anytime chain at 34-50 that still has lower dps than the CD frontal.

I never Played these style changes on live DaoC as i was mostly gone at that point.

Long story short: My takeaway from this is
VW ++
Warden +
NS (Assassins in general) +
BM +
Ranger (melee) +
Hero and Champ +/-
Bard 0

Very nicely written.

I'm looking forward to trying the assassin changes... especially 50 CS for ripper.
Fri 16 Oct 2020 2:19 PM by gruenesschaf
There really is no point for me to continue with the negativity towards all changes and accusing us of being deceptive with the vote, what the fuck did you expect when you voted yes on a vote that explicitly mentioned all weapon lines? That we just plop a backsnare to Ragnarok and call it a day? Oh wait, people actually accuse us of being deceptive with the crit variance vote because we then only changed the crit variance.

Last November we internally decided to announce some major change regarding the future of the server once the eu pt population drops below a certain threshold on a non holiday Sunday. Aside from bug fixes there won't be anymore gameplay changes until then.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sun 27 Sep 2020 8:10 PM
Frigzy wrote:
Sun 27 Sep 2020 5:26 PM
Classic was definitely part of the original advertisement. Now it has become clear the Classic part was nothing more than a marketing trick. It's become a full-blown progression server.

At some point the players who started here because of the initial charm will play here only because there's no viable alternative around. That's the beginning of a fragile and dwindling playerbase.

Most official messaging was rather careful to say 1.65 as the base and changes from there and maybe something like classic inspired thrown in. However, there is no denying that since launch the stance of some more classic leaning staff members has shifted to be more open.

The problem with patch level authentic servers, regardless of the chosen patch level, is twofold, each and every patch level has issues, lots and lots of issues, many of which will have been fixed in later versions and the other part is that it just becomes stale.
For older games as the server life goes on there is a general downward trend as new players are rare when compared to current titles, that means it's important to get as many people as possible in the launch to be left with a healthy population 3 months down the line after the typical new mmo exodus.
Pure patch level following shards in pretty much any game have just the downward trend inherent to older games.
Shards that follow a strict patch progression as done by the original game (ie most wow vanilla shards, many everquest shards, wow classic) have rather big upticks at every new content release followed by a quick player loss again, pretty much the same as on launch although with obviously a less pronouncend spike and loss, and coupled with the general downward trend, however, depending on the specific content patch it can mean you can retain more returning players than you lost between the last content phase and this one.
Custom changes can go either way

Things that go against the general downward trend are events and changes, events help make it less stale but especially to get people to return, usually it's just for the event though. Changes are less so for getting players back and more to prevent people from leaving due the normal decay from it just becoming stale.
Both are somewhat dangerous though, you can't have constant events as then it just becomes nothing special anymore and it then would also disrupt the normal gameplay potentially to the point that people who prefer the normal gameplay leave. Changes can also be dangerous in that people that _really_ don't like them will leave, here it is a balance act if you think the change will keep more people who would have left due to staleness versus those leaving because of the change.
A combination of both is kind of our approach, the thinking being people who left due to staleness return for a fun event and see that some things have changed since they left which might make them stay longer than just the event.

The only lasting but at least for older games incredibly risky way to keep a population is seasons as the launch of each season is pretty much a new server launch with the corresponding launch phase that is just entirely unlike the normal day to day action a month or two after launch, even people who don't like a particular game will most likely enjoy the launch phase of such a game.
Current titles / progression servers can do it in a more subtle way: expansions, the prime example here would be wow where every expansions is pretty much a complete reset although you get to carry over cosmetics and some achievements, daoc kind of tried that with SI / spellcrafting and later mostly did it with toa / mls but due to RR a big part of player power / progression was not reset.
For most older games most freeshard players usually are already effectively playing seasons by jumping to new servers as they are released.
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Planned Changes or the latest topics