State of light tanks. Please read and keep it positive.

#1
With the current class balancing in place, the light tank role is basically set to peel duty. This server gives casters higher armor factor and hitpoints innately which heavily favors pull groups as light tanks have a nerfed version of the charge mechanic. I understand why casters were given this buff as they needed survivability. However, with these changes in place, it puts Midgard at a large disadvantage in the RvR scene as it heavily relies on melee over the other realms specifically light tanks.

I personally feel there are a couple of ways of resolving this issue to create a better balance between the realms. Other suggestions are welcome however the issue stated above does exist and does need to be addressed.

Option 1: Give charge its immunity factor back. This will basically stop light tanks from being rooted/snared out of every encounter almost immediately. Obviously, if such a change was made it would need to be re-evaluated to ensure it is not overpowered and rendering casters useless.

Option 2: Remove the AF and HP buff on casters so that they cant simply be chain healed through 3 light tanks beating on them. This solution may be problematic with the high archer damage now already taking casters out with 2 arrows. I do feel if this was done archer damage would have to be reduced significantly.

Option 3: Dramatically lower root/snare times as well as set an immunity to melee snare so it cant be chained on a target over and over. Alternatively, we could make Determination affect all roots/snares as well as set an immunity timer to said cc.

Before people start flaming this post please hear me out. I love this game as much as everyone else on this server. I am a melee-oriented player that simply cannot play a caster. I do not wish to be overpowered in any shape or form. I would like fair gameplay for all that makes archers, assassins, casters, healers, tanks, and light tanks all viable in RvR. I think that we can all agree when one side or class or archetype has a large advantage people flock to it which causes imbalance especially in a game such as DAOC.

It would be wonderful to see some support on this from the community and the phoenix team as I feel if this issue is left unresolved people who are melee-oriented will simply leave the game or be forced to play a class they don't enjoy just so they can play a game they love.

Re: State of light tanks. Please read and keep it positive.

#3
Tanks got more HPs out of that change than casters. I'm not sure if it makes fights more or less interesting overall, but I don't really see how it imbalanced things in favor of casters (e.g., if you think meleeing a caster with 1600 HP down is hard while they're getting heals, try nuking down a resist buffed tank by yourself while it's getting healed).

I'm also curious about the rooted/snared out of every encounter immediately comment. Personally, my single target 1+ minute root on a full det light tank hardly lasts long enough for me to get enough distance to get off one or two casts, but it doesn't seem like every tank goes that high in det despite how relatively cheap it is (other passives cost more than 50% more in RA points to get to the same level). Are there many tanks that consistently experience this issue with root? I would honestly expect tanks to love being rooted because, with high det, it'll wear off quickly or can be purged and then they're immune to snares. In fact, is forcing your enemies to root your tanks not a real countermeasure against groups that have a good snare game? That's not a rhetorical question; I truly don't know and can't think of any other counterplays other than maybe choosing advantageous terrain to fight on.

I don't really have skin in this, so if something were done to help light tanks, I'm fine with that. I'm just curious about whether they're really in a bad place. I know /serverinfo 50 often has tanks all below casters, but I assume some of that is because casters tend to make better farmers, not necessarily because casters are the meta for RvR.
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*Past Lives*
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Re: State of light tanks. Please read and keep it positive.

#4
To further point out some of the disadvantages of melees against casters:
- Casters nuke light tanks at least 2x as hard as light tanks hit them back. So for a light tank to even close distance on a caster while getting nuked, diseased/snared/stunned/mezzed and then finally MOCed and nuked in place is just silly.
- When casters lower their cast speed with higher DEX their damage per hit does not go down while melees that lower their swing speed with higher QUI see their style damage go down considerably
- Casters get group PBT to negate melee attacks while melees do not receive anything of the nature to negate caster damage.


Some melee nerfs on this server that affects the melee vs caster balance:
- HP Raised
- AF Rating Raised
- No Charge RA ability

Let me know what I missed.
Last edited by andreynk257 on Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Re: State of light tanks. Please read and keep it positive.

#7
andreynk257 wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:49 am
As far as PD I would actually argue that its fair because melees have the Avoidance of Magic to counter and both give the same amounts per points spent.
Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.
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Re: State of light tanks. Please read and keep it positive.

#8
I play a Merc(rr7) and a BM(rr8).... I do not at all recognise the problems described by the author.

First of all, best thing that can happen is a root that will render you immune to melee snares for a minute..... red root last 11 seconds and you start accelerating after around 4-5 seconds..... This is NOT a problem.

Nerfing melee snares so that they give immunity will only help to "simplify" the game and is not a solution as this is not a real problem - if you are skilled you will counter peel/snare the opponent to get free.... Melee snare mechanic is not the problem here, you skills and tactics are.

Low damage output remark is understandable, but its a question about your realm rank and how you choose to calculate/look at it.... 2 x higher chance of shooting off procs, flurry ability + the possibility to actually cap you attack speed completely for relatively low costs in realm skill points compare to others (When buffed by standard 40 nurt druid (+ 83 quick buff) on my BM I have 1.5 sec swing speed with 3.9 in main hand by having only Aug Quick 2 (251 total) and MoArms 4, thats only 9 points spent on capping attack speed completely (takes some more points on the merc tough).
Also, alot of defence makes you harder to peel by melees compared to heavy tanks.

Someone else suggested removing PD.... sure could help for some tanks, but will completely tip the scale for savages and we will be back to savages 2 hitting casters........ no thanks.

Frankly speaking i dont recognize the problems described here, i still find melee groups to be the strongest when played well.
Jero.

Re: State of light tanks. Please read and keep it positive.

#9
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 10:57 am
andreynk257 wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:49 am
As far as PD I would actually argue that its fair because melees have the Avoidance of Magic to counter and both give the same amounts per points spent.
Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.
Correct and I think ultimately we want the same thing, which is for light tanks to do more damage on the casters. Ultimately I think melees need to do at least 30% more base damage on casters as the game stands now because its getting ridiculous with how easy they can range nuke you before you even get to them, that is if you are ever even able to get to them before being stopped by some sort of CC/snare. On my savage fully buffed it can take over 6 single hits (when the Rng is poor) to kill a caster and that is f'n ridiculous! They need to drop in 3-4 hits max if I was able to gain position on them on the battlefield.

Determination 9 is not a replacement for the old Charge RA because it does not affect roots/diseases while mezzes /stuns can still last around 9 seconds which is an eternity. Currently in this state of the game its all about kiting tanks and that is the same as being mezzed and taken out of the fight. Running light tank groups without old Charge against caster groups (with all the other nerfs stacked in caster's favor on this server) just really makes it a one sided fight.

Re: State of light tanks. Please read and keep it positive.

#10
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 10:57 am
Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.
What about the consequence of casters being incredibly easy to shut down? What other MMO has such a severe interrupt system for casters?
andreynk257 wrote: To further point out some of the disadvantages of melees against casters:
- Casters nuke light tanks at least 2x as hard as light tanks hit them back. So for a light tank to even close distance on a caster while getting nuked, diseased/snared/stunned/mezzed and then finally MOCed and nuked in place is just silly.
- When casters lower their cast speed with higher DEX their damage per hit does not go down while melees that lower their swing speed with higher QUI see their style damage go down considerably
- Casters get group PBT to negate melee attacks while melees do not receive anything of the nature to negate caster damage.


Some melee nerfs on this server that affects the melee vs caster balance:
- Mastery of Pain critical hit damage capped to 30%
- AF rating raised
- No Charge ability

Let me know what I missed.
Honestly, this list is a bit absurd.
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.
  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?
  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.
  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.
  • This goes back to the ability to have so much Det at such a cheap cost that any CC other than snares is basically pointless against light tanks. And again, you're mistaken in thinking that root is not affected by Det. Also, Enyore just confirmed my intuition that getting rooted is actually a good thing if you're a light tank because it lasts a short amount of time and makes you immune to snares.
Still not really seeing how light tanks are in a terrible position. I'm open to the idea, but so far the problems listed seem to ignore a lot of mechanics of how casters work vs light tanks.
*Current Lives*
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*Past Lives*
(MLF) Levlin/Rang > (Bors) Kleib/RM > (Kay) Traep/Minst > (Lancelot Cluster) Chassis/Sav > (Ywain) Finnegin/Ment > (Uthgard) Mordigg/BD