Re: Why have you changed your intention on the critchanges?

#11
As always, they wanted to benefit Midgard.
Mage crits are real target here.
In order not to see this too much, they made you believe in a gentle modification in first place.


Ashenspire wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:45 am
There's nothing fun about losing a fight because of a random resist, or miss, or literally anything that is completely out of your control and not a result of something your opponent did.

yeah but Phoenix ADORE random, that's why we are stuck with stupid 10% base resist instead of 5%

Re: Why have you changed your intention on the critchanges?

#13
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:17 am
I agree with this statement in regards to most competitive games, such as actual fighting games for example. I disagree that it applies to a game like DAoC though. Having a range for your damage just makes sense, as does a range for your crit damage. There isn't much logical explanation to make every attack do the same damage to begin with. Especially when you have so many things you *aren't* doing going on in the back ground, such as evade, parry, block, and every proc. Those aren't things you have control over either, yet they are a huge part of the game. If this was a twitch style game where you actually had to operate the shield, or dodge at the right times, then sure I get your point. Since it is a pretty slow game, where those things don't happen though, the RNG on attacks, cirts, and all the other things you don't actually do intentionally help the game feel more balanced. If you never missed, or never did less/more damage on attacks it makes it much more difficult to beat people who are higher RR than you, or a tough matchup for your class, assuming equal player skill, and to me that just isn't exciting at all.
But you ARE speccing in parry, block, deciding on which procs to put on which piece of armor, making sure the stats that determine how often you block/parry/evade are maxed out to make them as reliable as possible. It's why games like Magic or Hearthstone work. You build yourself to reduce the impact of RNG on your performance as much as possible.

This is GOOD RNG that the character has control over.

Having your spells resisted, or missing a melee swing, neither of which you or your opponent have any control over, are BAD RNG, and is why almost every modern MMO that's tab target based has forgone the idea of any kind of Accuracy stat.

Some characters can have 40% block, 30% parry, and 5% evade. Throwing in a miss chance that you can maybe sometimes bypass with certain styles that you may or may not be able to use at this time is just anti-fun at that point.

Re: Why have you changed your intention on the critchanges?

#14
Sepplord wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:02 pm
Eoril wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:42 pm
As always, they wanted to benefit Midgard.
Mage crits are real target here.
Caster have loads of other great RA options though. They also have MoM that they can spec more heavily into

What can melee-dps spec in alternatively? Seriously look up bm/merc/svg/zerk in the charplaner. There is no alternative.
yeah plz remove MOM this is a joke and do it caster to strong!!! and plz introduce dex breakpoint! the cast speed from high rr castern is inhuman :-).

Re: Why have you changed your intention on the critchanges?

#15
Sepplord wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:12 am
Thank you for the more detailed explanation, i understand where you are coming from now.

In that regard i can understand why going the original route would have been problematic. Same average dmg with more lethal spikes would be a huge buff.
But now we have the same amount of lethal spikes with less average damage and that is a huge nerf that is just as problematic if there was no need for a nerf before.

As it seems now there was a not really neccessary change, but i fully agreed with your philosophie of making the feel of crits better again. I really like the idea. But because that lead to problems now the change is left in, despite it coming with an unwanted nerf to all crit RAs. And some classes do not have other offensive alternatives to pick from and are now just stuck with a nerf that noone (including you) wanted in the first place.
I am not sure how to "fix" the problem, without introducing variance back to crit-damage, but as of now you have reduced the potential of max-crits which is the opposite of making crits feel good again, imo. Max-crits (or near max-crits) were not happening often before, but worth a screenshot when you hit that sweet 48-50% bonusdamage.
Now the best crit you can hope for is only 30% which means all crits are just average now with no chance of having nice and huge crits at all


The more i think about it, it seems that instead of making crits feel better and not changing average dmg, you have now made it impossible for crits to give you that oompf feeling AND coupled that with a nerf. It's the absolute opposite of the initial intention.
I think you're mistaken about there being a nerf here to average damage. gruenesschaf has explained several times that average damage hasn't changed with the crit change. Maybe you're focused too much on the >30% dmg crits and forgetting about the <30% dmg crits that were possible before?

(Not sure how I feel about the change personally, but it's probably good to take a wait-and-see approach here.)
*Current Lives*
(Phoenix) Kroll
*Past Lives*
(MLF) Levlin/Rang > (Bors) Kleib/RM > (Kay) Traep/Minst > (Lancelot Cluster) Chassis/Sav > (Ywain) Finnegin/Ment > (Uthgard) Mordigg/BD

Re: Why have you changed your intention on the critchanges?

#16
joshisanonymous wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:09 pm
Sepplord wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:12 am
Thank you for the more detailed explanation, i understand where you are coming from now.

In that regard i can understand why going the original route would have been problematic. Same average dmg with more lethal spikes would be a huge buff.
But now we have the same amount of lethal spikes with less average damage and that is a huge nerf that is just as problematic if there was no need for a nerf before.

As it seems now there was a not really neccessary change, but i fully agreed with your philosophie of making the feel of crits better again. I really like the idea. But because that lead to problems now the change is left in, despite it coming with an unwanted nerf to all crit RAs. And some classes do not have other offensive alternatives to pick from and are now just stuck with a nerf that noone (including you) wanted in the first place.
I am not sure how to "fix" the problem, without introducing variance back to crit-damage, but as of now you have reduced the potential of max-crits which is the opposite of making crits feel good again, imo. Max-crits (or near max-crits) were not happening often before, but worth a screenshot when you hit that sweet 48-50% bonusdamage.
Now the best crit you can hope for is only 30% which means all crits are just average now with no chance of having nice and huge crits at all


The more i think about it, it seems that instead of making crits feel better and not changing average dmg, you have now made it impossible for crits to give you that oompf feeling AND coupled that with a nerf. It's the absolute opposite of the initial intention.
I think you're mistaken about there being a nerf here to average damage. gruenesschaf has explained several times that average damage hasn't changed with the crit change. Maybe you're focused too much on the >30% dmg crits and forgetting about the <30% dmg crits that were possible before?

(Not sure how I feel about the change personally, but it's probably good to take a wait-and-see approach here.)
MAybe you missed that they reverted from their initial idea... 30% is the average dmg of the spread 10-50%...but the critchance-scaling of the Crit-RAs has been changed from a cap of +39% for lvl9 down to +25% for lvl9. That's a huge nerf and the reason i made this post. I don't understand why they go from a cosmetic-like change and make it into a heavy nerf instead of just reverting the change and planning a different solution

Re: Why have you changed your intention on the critchanges?

#17
Sepplord wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:34 pm
MAybe you missed that they reverted from their initial idea... 30% is the average dmg of the spread 10-50%...but the critchance-scaling of the Crit-RAs has been changed from a cap of +39% for lvl9 down to +25% for lvl9. That's a huge nerf and the reason i made this post. I don't understand why they go from a cosmetic-like change and make it into a heavy nerf instead of just reverting the change and planning a different solution
Ok, so here's what I understand to have happened:
  1. Crit chance capped at 39% from RAs, crit damage variable between 10%-50%
  2. Crit chance capped at 20% from RAs, crit damage fixed at 30% but increasing at same rate as crit chance from RAs, leading to a 2% damage increase on average from the previous system (1) (Saturday)
  3. Crit chance capped at 25% from RAs, crit damage fixed at 30% and no longer increasing, no word but presumably losing that 2% damage increase from (2) (Monday)
*Current Lives*
(Phoenix) Kroll
*Past Lives*
(MLF) Levlin/Rang > (Bors) Kleib/RM > (Kay) Traep/Minst > (Lancelot Cluster) Chassis/Sav > (Ywain) Finnegin/Ment > (Uthgard) Mordigg/BD

Re: Why have you changed your intention on the critchanges?

#18
joshisanonymous wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:15 pm
Sepplord wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:34 pm
MAybe you missed that they reverted from their initial idea... 30% is the average dmg of the spread 10-50%...but the critchance-scaling of the Crit-RAs has been changed from a cap of +39% for lvl9 down to +25% for lvl9. That's a huge nerf and the reason i made this post. I don't understand why they go from a cosmetic-like change and make it into a heavy nerf instead of just reverting the change and planning a different solution
Ok, so here's what I understand to have happened:
  1. Crit chance capped at 39% from RAs, crit damage variable between 10%-50%
  2. Crit chance capped at 20% from RAs, crit damage fixed at 30% but increasing at same rate as crit chance from RAs, leading to a 2% damage increase on average from the previous system (1) (Saturday)
  3. Crit chance capped at 25% from RAs, crit damage fixed at 30% and no longer increasing, no word but presumably losing that 2% damage increase from (2) (Monday)
Afaik that is correct. And since a 10-50%variance is comparable to a fixed 30%, the overall endresult is a -14%critchance nerf.

Re: Why have you changed your intention on the critchanges?

#20
The Skies Asunder wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:17 am
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:45 am
RNG in any kind of PvP game should be minimized as much as possible.

There's nothing fun about losing a fight because of a random resist, or miss, or literally anything that is completely out of your control and not a result of something your opponent did.

That being said, crits have always been a part of MMOs, and are a result of what you or your opponent gears or specs for. They should happen rarely enough, but should be noticeable when they do. The old MoP made them common, but less impactful most of the time. The 2nd MoP made them rare, but impactful. This new one makes them both rare and less impactful, which is doesn't really address the original concern.
I agree with this statement in regards to most competitive games, such as actual fighting games for example. I disagree that it applies to a game like DAoC though. Having a range for your damage just makes sense, as does a range for your crit damage. There isn't much logical explanation to make every attack do the same damage to begin with. Especially when you have so many things you *aren't* doing going on in the back ground, such as evade, parry, block, and every proc. Those aren't things you have control over either, yet they are a huge part of the game. If this was a twitch style game where you actually had to operate the shield, or dodge at the right times, then sure I get your point. Since it is a pretty slow game, where those things don't happen though, the RNG on attacks, cirts, and all the other things you don't actually do intentionally help the game feel more balanced. If you never missed, or never did less/more damage on attacks it makes it much more difficult to beat people who are higher RR than you, or a tough matchup for your class, assuming equal player skill, and to me that just isn't exciting at all.

I totally agree on that one and want to add that a big RNG Element is already non existent on Phoenix -> there are no Damage variances on Style damage.

This game is great after all these yeasrs because RNG can win you fights and loose fights. Taking one more bit away from the unpredicable is taking away a bit of the daoc feeling. And thats why we still play, right?