[Implemented] Speed Breaking will (mostly) use Spell Interrupt logic

Started 31 Jul 2018
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
We plan to change the speed breaking behavior a bit so that it almost always breaks for the target and the attacker if the action would interrupt a spell cast.

That means, these things will break speed after the change:
All melee attacks, regardless of outcome (in case of intercept / guard the guarder / interceptor would be the target and loose speed)
All spells with cast time except amnesia
All cc spells
All damage spells

These spells currently interrupt and will most likely also break speed after the change - input is welcome:
Instant resist debuffs
Instant dps debuff
Instant taunt

Amnesia will most likely be special cased / excluded from this and just put both parties in combat - input is welcome.

All other offensive spells (mostly instant debuffs) will just put both targets in combat -> the current speed tick will continue and no new tick will get applied.
Tue 31 Jul 2018 7:20 AM by Ceen
Would be handy to have at least some live like mechanics ingame, like how breaking speed is handled
Wed 1 Aug 2018 12:51 PM by aso
sounds good, and how about hastener? i think it should break the hastener speed to
Wed 1 Aug 2018 1:54 PM by Magesty
aso wrote:
Wed 1 Aug 2018 12:51 PM
sounds good, and how about hastener? i think it should break the hastener speed to

Hastener is speed...? The tick mechanics obviously don’t apply.
Thu 2 Aug 2018 7:27 PM by daocgod
nearsighting someone doesn't drop the nearsighters speed immediately btw
Thu 2 Aug 2018 8:33 PM by heardstheword
daocgod wrote:
Thu 2 Aug 2018 7:27 PM
nearsighting someone doesn't drop the nearsighters speed immediately btw

But it does eventually? Like it's delayed or did something else cause it to drop?
Thu 2 Aug 2018 8:47 PM by daocgod
at the end of the tick speed will drop for the nearsighter and the nearsighted
speed ticks are 6 seconds
disease, mez , etc cause speed to drop after the tick

i hope this custom speed break system wont make things worse for casters as it is
Fri 3 Aug 2018 9:52 AM by Frigzy
daocgod wrote:
Thu 2 Aug 2018 8:47 PM
i hope this custom speed break system wont make things worse for casters as it is

Breaking speed is so incredibly important as a caster it's not even funny. If you can't break speed, you basically lose out on 2 or 3 spells, meaning the difference between life and death.

As it stands now, I'm looking to get a DD charged itempiece simply because breaking speed is so crucial.
Sat 11 Aug 2018 1:23 AM by Dis
hi,

mostly doing 8vs8 and RvR in general. i think the speedbreak changes have to be changed, groups with 2 bards or even 1.
midgrps with skalds are just running into someone without even a chance of breakin speed well enough.

u cant open fights for example against hib5 nat setups, who are pretty hyped at the moment, the new shine easy to play stick no counter setup is working so good because u can break maybe 1-4 players until they gettin into your face, pressing all kinds of instants and sticking you into dead.

if you ask me, if i am frustrated about it? YES, ofc. The caster with range has to stop kiting, has to stop his positioning and for what? breaking speed and allready then ur in a pretty huge disadvantage.

for me, its just 1of like many reasons this setup will be hell on life, there is actually no counter but playing sticksetups too, what makes this server lame, dont misunderstand me, i love phoenix, its so much fun to play it, but from a rvr persective, i dont get the point where 1 grp is in such a good spot because they can abuse the server changes and the server benefits "like gettin not out of speed with amnesia" or something.

we as 8 man set were thinking a lot about that "asia boys" stick setup trash and the only answer we found is, fight them when they dont have RA´s to dump or play a sticksetup yourself.

please just change something about speedbreaking abilitys and help alb to even get into a fight against them without playing full hamn full tank.

i am frustrated about that grp, dont get me wrong but this cant be the way...
Sat 11 Aug 2018 1:33 AM by Quik
Pretty sure this server in a state called "beta".

Everything they do, they do to test things while it is in beta.

They did this change to test it and see how people like it.

You did an excellent job explaining what you didn't like which is what they want, but ya might get off the "server is lame" argument while it is in BETA.

Help them figure out a way to make this fun for everyone by working with them not against.
Sat 11 Aug 2018 1:34 AM by Quik
daocgod wrote:
Thu 2 Aug 2018 7:27 PM
nearsighting someone doesn't drop the nearsighters speed immediately btw

This is what SHOULD happen. Waiting until the end of the tick means the group is already on you and it is too late...
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:17 PM by kpax
i hope amnesia wont be nerfed and works like it should be.
Sat 19 Jan 2019 8:50 AM by Ninefingers
All i can say , playing skald is if you see a bard you are already in amnesia range and will be dropped from speed, and it doesn't matter how much you pan that is going to happen. Amnesia is going to totally skew RVR of all flavours in Hib favour unless it's range or ability to drop speed is changed.
Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:32 AM by Meandow
Ninefingers wrote:
Sat 19 Jan 2019 8:50 AM
All i can say , playing skald is if you see a bard you are already in amnesia range and will be dropped from speed, and it doesn't matter how much you pan that is going to happen. Amnesia is going to totally skew RVR of all flavours in Hib favour unless it's range or ability to drop speed is changed.

Amnesia only puts you in combat and will drop your speed before the next pulse so it's not always instant, on top of that the bard will also lose his speed or am I missing something? If not I don't really see the issue.
Tue 22 Jan 2019 7:47 PM by Quik
Ninefingers wrote:
Sat 19 Jan 2019 8:50 AM
All i can say , playing skald is if you see a bard you are already in amnesia range and will be dropped from speed, and it doesn't matter how much you pan that is going to happen. Amnesia is going to totally skew RVR of all flavours in Hib favour unless it's range or ability to drop speed is changed.

Pretty sure both will lose speed...where is the "totally skewed RvR in favor of hib"?
Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:46 AM by Sepplord
Quik wrote:
Tue 22 Jan 2019 7:47 PM
Ninefingers wrote:
Sat 19 Jan 2019 8:50 AM
All i can say , playing skald is if you see a bard you are already in amnesia range and will be dropped from speed, and it doesn't matter how much you pan that is going to happen. Amnesia is going to totally skew RVR of all flavours in Hib favour unless it's range or ability to drop speed is changed.

Pretty sure both will lose speed...where is the "totally skewed RvR in favor of hib"?

Bard loses speed, fullgrp mids/albs lose speed

that's an advantage for the Hibs.
Don't think it "totaly skews" though...

The instant amnesia on the short CD is OP imo, but not because of the speedbreak/mechanic but the immense rupt potential it has, all the while the bard does what he does on top
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:15 AM by rubaduck
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:46 AM
Bard loses speed, fullgrp mids/albs lose speed

that's an advantage for the Hibs.
Don't think it "totaly skews" though...

The instant amnesia on the short CD is OP imo, but not because of the speedbreak/mechanic but the immense rupt potential it has, all the while the bard does what he does on top

I see this argument is still around, and I don't understand how you can beat a dead horse around like this.

Instant amnesia is a necessity for hibs. And before we make this in to a laughing stock, albs has sorcs, and usually 2 sorcs per group. One of them can be on amnesia patrol (which they do) and the second on mezz patrol. The mezzer has a bolt range mez, which is a laughable distance. Also take in to consideration that they have a minstrel, and a second sorc with a total of 3 demezzers.

Mids has healers, and they run two healers, one aug one pac, same deal. Two people are doing two different jobs.

Hibs has 1 bard. One single character who are mezzing and using amnesia. I don't know how much you've played bard but it is THE NUMBER 1 HARDEST UTILITY CLASS in the game. You need to watch for inc, prepare the amnesia, prepare the mezz and then focus on peeling AND heals. Hib groups don't run 2 bards for one single reason: damage. And this might be laughable, especially if you are comparing it to live numbers but spells do not deal nearly as much damage here as it does on Live. If you sacrifice 1 nuker for a bard, just to have a castable amnesia, every caster group on hib will be on a deficit every time. Period. A nat5 group works fine because they run two bards for a second demezzer anyways, but hib caster group will struggle with two bards. We have played both setups, and while healing You can't change out one of the druids as you are running 1 nature druid and 1 nurt druid.

So to give another pinpoint, how is an instant cast amnesia then over powered when it a) can't be spammed like on mid and alb, and b) how hard is it to spread? It should be the first instinct on inc on any realm and is the number 1 counter to CC.

This of course applies to small man too, but I agree, it is harder to play against a bard there as you are fewer, but the points still apply: why not spread?
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:54 AM by Sepplord
rubaduck wrote:
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:15 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:46 AM
Bard loses speed, fullgrp mids/albs lose speed

that's an advantage for the Hibs.
Don't think it "totaly skews" though...

The instant amnesia on the short CD is OP imo, but not because of the speedbreak/mechanic but the immense rupt potential it has, all the while the bard does what he does on top

I see this argument is still around, and I don't understand how you can beat a dead horse around like this.

Instant amnesia is a necessity for hibs. And before we make this in to a laughing stock, albs has sorcs, and usually 2 sorcs per group. One of them can be on amnesia patrol (which they do) and the second on mezz patrol. The mezzer has a bolt range mez, which is a laughable distance. Also take in to consideration that they have a minstrel, and a second sorc with a total of 3 demezzers.

Mids has healers, and they run two healers, one aug one pac, same deal. Two people are doing two different jobs.

Hibs has 1 bard. One single character who are mezzing and using amnesia. I don't know how much you've played bard but it is THE NUMBER 1 HARDEST UTILITY CLASS in the game. You need to watch for inc, prepare the amnesia, prepare the mezz and then focus on peeling AND heals. Hib groups don't run 2 bards for one single reason: damage. And this might be laughable, especially if you are comparing it to live numbers but spells do not deal nearly as much damage here as it does on Live. If you sacrifice 1 nuker for a bard, just to have a castable amnesia, every caster group on hib will be on a deficit every time. Period. A nat5 group works fine because they run two bards for a second demezzer anyways, but hib caster group will struggle with two bards. We have played both setups, and while healing You can't change out one of the druids as you are running 1 nature druid and 1 nurt druid.

So to give another pinpoint, how is an instant cast amnesia then over powered when it a) can't be spammed like on mid and alb, and b) how hard is it to spread? It should be the first instinct on inc on any realm and is the number 1 counter to CC.

This of course applies to small man too, but I agree, it is harder to play against a bard there as you are fewer, but the points still apply: why not spread?

maybe i misworded my rant (i have to admit it was a bit ranty), i agree that instant amnesia is fine for inc... What i disagree with is having it on a 10second cooldown. THAT makes it problematic imo.
Wed 23 Jan 2019 10:29 AM by rubaduck
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:54 AM
rubaduck wrote:
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:15 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:46 AM
Bard loses speed, fullgrp mids/albs lose speed

that's an advantage for the Hibs.
Don't think it "totaly skews" though...

The instant amnesia on the short CD is OP imo, but not because of the speedbreak/mechanic but the immense rupt potential it has, all the while the bard does what he does on top

I see this argument is still around, and I don't understand how you can beat a dead horse around like this.

Instant amnesia is a necessity for hibs. And before we make this in to a laughing stock, albs has sorcs, and usually 2 sorcs per group. One of them can be on amnesia patrol (which they do) and the second on mezz patrol. The mezzer has a bolt range mez, which is a laughable distance. Also take in to consideration that they have a minstrel, and a second sorc with a total of 3 demezzers.

Mids has healers, and they run two healers, one aug one pac, same deal. Two people are doing two different jobs.

Hibs has 1 bard. One single character who are mezzing and using amnesia. I don't know how much you've played bard but it is THE NUMBER 1 HARDEST UTILITY CLASS in the game. You need to watch for inc, prepare the amnesia, prepare the mezz and then focus on peeling AND heals. Hib groups don't run 2 bards for one single reason: damage. And this might be laughable, especially if you are comparing it to live numbers but spells do not deal nearly as much damage here as it does on Live. If you sacrifice 1 nuker for a bard, just to have a castable amnesia, every caster group on hib will be on a deficit every time. Period. A nat5 group works fine because they run two bards for a second demezzer anyways, but hib caster group will struggle with two bards. We have played both setups, and while healing You can't change out one of the druids as you are running 1 nature druid and 1 nurt druid.

So to give another pinpoint, how is an instant cast amnesia then over powered when it a) can't be spammed like on mid and alb, and b) how hard is it to spread? It should be the first instinct on inc on any realm and is the number 1 counter to CC.

This of course applies to small man too, but I agree, it is harder to play against a bard there as you are fewer, but the points still apply: why not spread?

maybe i misworded my rant (i have to admit it was a bit ranty), i agree that instant amnesia is fine for inc... What i disagree with is having it on a 10second cooldown. THAT makes it problematic imo.

As in it is sad that it is? Because Alb and Mid has no cooldown for it, with a 2.5 second cast. Hibs can't efficiently use amnesia more then once every 10 seconds on aoe, and 5 seconds on single. It is the least effective amnesia in the game, but the most important spell to make the most out of on inc.
Wed 23 Jan 2019 11:16 AM by Sepplord
rubaduck wrote:
Wed 23 Jan 2019 10:29 AM
As in it is sad that it is? Because Alb and Mid has no cooldown for it, with a 2.5 second cast. Hibs can't efficiently use amnesia more then once every 10 seconds on aoe, and 5 seconds on single. It is the least effective amnesia in the game, but the most important spell to make the most out of on inc.

No idea what you mean with the "sad"-part at start?

Regarding the rest of the argument, yeah...there are benefits to spammable amnesia too, but as you said, it has casttime. Someone has to be actively casting it. Bards can use it when it is needed, instantly, don't have to interrupt what they are doing.

I think we are going very offtopic here though, the "bard-problem" also isn't as big as it might have sounded. I wouldn't advocate for bard nerfs unless when people ask for Buffs. Especially when the buffs are called "just QOL change".
Wed 23 Jan 2019 12:07 PM by rubaduck
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 23 Jan 2019 11:16 AM
No idea what you mean with the "sad"-part at start?

Regarding the rest of the argument, yeah...there are benefits to spammable amnesia too, but as you said, it has casttime. Someone has to be actively casting it. Bards can use it when it is needed, instantly, don't have to interrupt what they are doing.

I think we are going very offtopic here though, the "bard-problem" also isn't as big as it might have sounded. I wouldn't advocate for bard nerfs unless when people ask for Buffs. Especially when the buffs are called "just QOL change".


Sad as in bad

I get it, the instant cast has "no counter" play, but with 300 dex the amnesia can be casted in 1.2 seconds which means they can cast it 8 times for every 1 cast the bard do. And I am sorry if this is going out on you, but this forum has been so toxic in terms of the bards and talk about balance. Most of the people who were complaining were people who seldom played 8-man groups, and usually got steamrolled in small man, in other words not very bright or good players. The good bard players were trying to defend as good as they could the fact that the only reason amnesia is instant, is because they need a levy amidst all the other tasks the classes perform on. The fact that isn't changed reflects that they were heard.

My own resolutions, is that if they are to give bards castable, at least one more class on hib needs to get access to it for it to make sense. But putting castable amnesia on classes like eld and mentalist causes another problem, which if course is broken, overpowered and unbeatable hib groups. Most people see that, and understand that it will destroy the gameplay for castable groups to the point where hibs will completely dominate because of it. I mean, the mentalist has a very important role, but not until people are mezzed or when they have to nuke. Eld is the same, they NS and disease so it's natural to use them as a second amnesia caster. But it will balance it out.

Again, I am just tired of reading about bard amnesia being instant, when the fact is that enemy teams can use their amnesia way more efficient and a lot more random (and get very lucky) while a bard needs to be precise every time they use it.
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Planned Changes or the latest topics