Were Sept 26th changes to mobs to make PvE easier intended to nerf charmed mobs?

Started 1 Jun 2019
by teiloh
in Ask the Team
From patch notes:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2334&p=13105&hilit=npc#p13105

From several conversations with devs/worldbuilders it appears that the intent is

1. Mobs should have the same abilities and ability behavior on original 1.65
2. Abilities should have the same relative balance as they did on Original (so Sorc Charm vs. Pet Summon should be relatively balanced) unless stated otherwise explicitly as a design feature

I can understand if buffed mobs were too much stronger than unbuffed ones. However, from my testing charm has been nerfed so badly that this balance doesn't hold up. Level 51 Ellyl sages, for example, nuke for 60-120 vs 26% resists over a very slow cast when Enchanter and BD caster pets hit much faster, snare, don't require the hassle of charm, etc. On Original/Live, sages spam bolted for 180-250+ on chain, while BD pets casted much slower and hit for much less, so the advantage of Sage went from 3-4x the DPS of one green/grey BD pet to 50% the DPS of a green/grey BD pet. And most charmed other mobs, even up to level 57, are doing 112-130 damage per hit every 3.5s or so vs chain with the additional Minstrel pet nerf - this is less DPS than level 32 Hunter pets as of now.

So far the changes to mobs have been a pretty big nerf to Sorcs and Minstrels, while Mentalists usually have a good selection of pets to pick from in their starting areas (dullahan, Templar, far darrig).

Is the pet review coming up and will this be addressed?
Thu 6 Jun 2019 7:42 PM by teiloh
bump. A lot of players are interested in this it seems.
Fri 7 Jun 2019 9:29 AM by pax
Yep, minstrel got a big hit on pet side, it needs a rework based on live\1.65.
And meanwhile maybe at least let us access better pets on different maps like hib have tempalrs\farr darig\duallah style\2h pets a step from home..

I rolled a min because i knew it was a solid class 1v1 and it still is, but is different here, Petstrel is very nerfed.
Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:09 AM by Leandrys
And the strel is really strong here, kinda balances him a bit, so everything is fine.
Fri 7 Jun 2019 2:19 PM by teiloh
Leandrys wrote:
Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:09 AM
And the strel is really strong here

Nope, it's the weakest the class has been.
Fri 7 Jun 2019 3:16 PM by Leandrys
Oh right ? You really think so ?


Hmm, then, let's definitively not buff it in any way as it is performing really well, we even could nerf it a bit, right ?
Fri 7 Jun 2019 3:50 PM by teiloh
Leandrys wrote:
Fri 7 Jun 2019 3:16 PM
Hmm, then, let's definitively not buff it in any way as it is performing really well, we even could nerf it a bit, right ?

"Performing really well" in your opinion? Speed classes will always do "well" because they're mandatory.
Fri 7 Jun 2019 4:42 PM by Leandrys
It's mandatory in groups and performing more than decently in it, in solo/small man it's probably the best class of the game in its current state.

So what ? Emergency in buffing it ?
Fri 7 Jun 2019 5:20 PM by teiloh
Leandrys wrote:
Fri 7 Jun 2019 4:42 PM
It's mandatory in groups and performing more than decently in it, in solo/small man it's probably the best class of the game in its current state.

So what ? Emergency in buffing it ?

Balance doesn't revolve around solo/small man, and fixing bugs/nerfs are not buffs.
Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:53 PM by Leandrys
100% wrong, strels do fine in groups and overperform in solo/smallmen. And buffing/nerfing doesn't have anything to do with bugfixing, nerf = lowering class potential, buff = increasing class potential, increase strel's pets dps = buff, no matters if it's bugfixing or not.

And let's be honnest, strels do not need any kind of buff. I play Alb btw, just to make things clear.
Sun 9 Jun 2019 5:14 PM by teiloh
Leandrys wrote:
Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:53 PM
100% wrong, strels do fine in groups and overperform in solo/smallmen. And buffing/nerfing doesn't have anything to do with bugfixing, nerf = lowering class potential, buff = increasing class potential, increase strel's pets dps = buff, no matters if it's bugfixing or not.

And let's be honnest, strels do not need any kind of buff. I play Alb btw, just to make things clear.

Nope. A bugfix is by definition not a buff, esp if the stated design goal *specifically* for mobs is that they should work as they do on live 1.65.
Mon 10 Jun 2019 8:36 PM by Leandrys
Oh god, please, just leave, you're 100% wrong, it would be a buff AS IT MAKES THE CLASS MORE EFFICIENT, no matters if it's a bugfix or not, you can bugfix without buffing/nerfing, that's not the point of the word.
Tue 11 Jun 2019 3:36 AM by teiloh
Leandrys wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2019 8:36 PM
Oh god, please, just leave, you're 100% wrong, it would be a buff AS IT MAKES THE CLASS MORE EFFICIENT, no matters if it's a bugfix or not, you can bugfix without buffing/nerfing, that's not the point of the word.

A bug fix is a bug fix.

A QOL change is a QOL change.

Buffs and nerfs are buffs and nerfs.

Don't confuse the terms.
Tue 11 Jun 2019 7:44 AM by Sepplord
bug fix or QOL change = cause of a change

buff / nerf = effect of the change



a bugfix can easily nerf or buff a class, a QOL change shouldn't because it then wouldn't be a QoL-change but a balance decision
Tue 11 Jun 2019 9:06 AM by pax
Leandrys wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2019 8:36 PM
Oh god, please, just leave, you're 100% wrong, it would be a buff AS IT MAKES THE CLASS MORE EFFICIENT, no matters if it's a bugfix or not, you can bugfix without buffing/nerfing, that's not the point of the word.

Congrants on being 100% toxic in 100% of your post in this thread without providing any useful critique on the topic. Minstrel got a massive nerf on pet side with 3x charm per second only (that is ok) and by nerfing by a big margin the melee dps of every high end pet they can afford, not to speack about magic pets. This second part is not OK.
Tue 11 Jun 2019 10:25 AM by Leandrys
Which is ok, strels shouldn't melee DPS more than tanks.

But thank you for your 100% non-toxic intervention. =)

PS : Sepplord got it totally right, the tool is different from its effect, some people seem to be thinking a screwdriver work only in one way.
Tue 11 Jun 2019 10:39 AM by pax
Leandrys wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2019 10:25 AM
Which is ok, strels shouldn't melee DPS more than tanks.

But thank you for your 100% non-toxic intervention. =)

PS : Sepplord got it totally right, the tool is different from its effect, some people seem to be thinking a screwdriver work only in one way.
We are speacking about RETURNING THINGS AS THEIR WERE, not making minstrel a DPS class.
We are asking that pets hits as they were, not like they are doing now in this nerfed patch.

Obviusly this will increase the DPS of minstrels as it was on 1.65, but back then or now in live, they were never being so nerfed like here.

This guy, my god.
Thu 20 Jun 2019 4:18 AM by teiloh
Forgot that many higher level popular minstrel pets were nerfed in levels. So far I've noticed Ellyl sages, frost stallions and far dorocha
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