Question on Archery Damage and Spec Level

Started 15 Jan 2019

by Zansobar

in Ask the Team

So I did some exhaustive bow testing on the dummies outside TNN on my level 25 Ranger. I have a question since the damage per hit is constant without variance (but does change as your spec changes)...is this damage amount supposed to be 75%, 100%, 125%, or 150% of base damage? Normally in DAOC, your spec level vs your character level would adjust the range of damage you do with a weapon. So with no spec your range of damage would be 25% to 125%, then at 2/3 of your level spec wise your damage would be 75% to 125%, and then at full 100% spec your damage would be 100% to 150% of base damage.

What % of base damage is the damage supposed to represent?

Tue 15 Jan 2019 4:56 PM by Zansobar

So bottom line - and I don't know if this is happening on other classes or is just game wide, but I get no variance on any bow or melee hits on my Ranger even with almost no spec. Now I've only tested melee on the testing dummies, but I was also getting no variance on mobs at full spec level with bow. As far as I know you are still supposed to get variance even at 100% spec but this is not happening. Furthermore the damage % increase from very low spec to full spec is not going up as much as it should even if the devs were foregoing variance and instead setting your damage equal to the average of the variance range you would expect at the spec level. But of course this method would inordinately benefit lower weapon specs and thus hurt those that spec higher in their weapon.

Can anyone else confirm if they are indeed not seeing any variance in their melee or bow attacks against same level mobs/dummies?

Tue 15 Jan 2019 5:30 PM by

Variance is separate from spec based damage changes and hence having fixed variance doesn't benefit low over high or vice versa. With variance the damage range would be 75% - 175%, with variance set to 25 and hence spec as the only variable it's 100 - 150.

Tue 15 Jan 2019 5:46 PM by Zansobar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jan 2019 5:30 PM
Variance is separate from spec based damage changes and hence having fixed variance doesn't benefit low over high or vice versa. With variance the damage range would be 75% - 175%, with variance set to 25 and hence spec as the only variable it's 100 - 150.

So what is the damage set to and is it intended then that no variance should be observed in archery or melee? 125% at max spec (average of 100% to 150%)? is it set to 75% at low spec (average of 25% to 125%)? I thought the range is 25% to 150% (lowest low and highest high) not 75% to 175%.

Tue 15 Jan 2019 7:07 PM by

We're using the formula based on the 2012 testing: https://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

This is the spec and variance part, notice that it's separate:
(0.75 + 0.5 * MIN(ENEMY_LEVEL + 1, SPEC - 1) / (ENEMY_LEVEL + 1) + 0.01 * RANDOM(50))

And yes, we have set the random(50) (which is the variance) to a flat 25.

Tue 15 Jan 2019 7:29 PM by Zansobar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jan 2019 7:07 PM
We're using the formula based on the 2012 testing: https://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

This is the spec and variance part, notice that it's separate:
(0.75 + 0.5 * MIN(ENEMY_LEVEL + 1, SPEC - 1) / (ENEMY_LEVEL + 1) + 0.01 * RANDOM(50))

And yes, we have set the random(50) (which is the variance) to a flat 25.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking...do you know why you aren't using the archery damage formula for bow instead of the melee damage formula?

The archery damage formula is: Base Damage at 100% variance mark =

EDPS * (your WS/target AF) * (1-absorb) * slow weap bonus * SPD * 2h weapon bonus * Arrow Bonus

EDPS = effective dps of the weapon

For base damage this is (clamped factor and weapon condition/quality)

For cap damage this is (clamped factor only)

Condition and quality of the weapon will affect effective damage in the following way :

Effective dam = Clamped Damage * Quality(%) * Condition(%)

The clamped damage is your maximimum allowed damage at your current lvl:

Clamped Damage = 1.2 + LVL * 0.3

2h weapon bonus = 1.1 + (0.005 x spec)

SLow Weapon bonus = 1 + ( (spd - 2) x 0.03)

SPD = listed weapon speed.

Damage Cap = EDPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD - 2) * .03) * (1.1 + (0.005 x spec) )

2h weapon bonus (note: when the weapon is a two hand weapon, the cap uses the 2h weapon bonus formula also.

Arrow Bonus =

0.85 for (light damage) Blunt Suffixed arrows
1.0 For (medium damage) normal arrows
1.25 for (Extra-Heavy Damage) Broadhead Suffixed arrows

from this website source: http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/archery_bow_mechanics.html

Tue 15 Jan 2019 9:34 PM by

It's almost the same thing

Tue 15 Jan 2019 10:13 PM by Zansobar

The archery damage formula uses WS versus target AF to increase damage. The WS formula increases by 1% per spec point into bow. On top of that in the melee damage formula AND in the archery damage formula there is a two handed weapon bonus which increases damage by 0.5% per spec point. In the archery formula you get both increases, in the melee damage formula only the two handed weapon bonus. This is one reason why speccing high bow on Phoenix gives very little increase in damage compared to the way it was back in 1.65 live since it is using the melee weapon damage formula and not the archery damage formula. Melee was always a sweet spot of 51 or here 52 spec, but archery would increase at a decent clip speccing all the way to 50 in bow. Melee would usually only spec higher to get a style they wanted to use, but back in the day there were no special abilities in bow, yet archers would spec high to keep increasing damage (again on Phoenix it will increase damage but only by 0.5% per spec point not by 1.01*1.05 per spec point).

I find it odd that the melee damage formula doesn't use WS directly (only the part of WS from STAT and partially the Level * Damage Table) yet the WS formula on the camelot Wikia matches the in game Phoenix displayed WS (in my testing)...yet WS displayed is unused in damage calculations on Phoenix (since it is not being used in Archery damage formula).

Anyway, this is probably one of the issues with why Archery damage is so low here - its using the melee damage formula and under-benefiting from bow spec level. (My two cents)

Tue 15 Jan 2019 10:51 PM by

Ready my link please and you'll find it's rather similar, the slow and 2h bonus are in. And regarding ws: at some point there was a grab bag saying ws isn't used but just a display value, however the stats that make up ws are used. Easiest way to confirm this is via melee damage on live, with more spec your ws increases but your unstyled damage stops at 52. The thing about ws divided by af was a common approximation.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 5:54 AM by Cadebrennus

As far as I know Archery is an unstyled ranged (interruptable) 2handed attack. Being that unstyled hits have no to-hit bonus nor any damage multiplier wouldn't you agree that Archery is in fact underpowered, especially considering all of the counters there are to Archery?

Wed 16 Jan 2019 8:12 AM by Emeryc

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 5:54 AM
As far as I know Archery is an unstyled ranged (interruptable) 2handed attack. Being that unstyled hits have no to-hit bonus nor any damage multiplier wouldn't you agree that Archery is in fact underpowered, especially considering all of the counters there are to Archery?

Great work, Zansobar. I would go a step farther and say Archery is underpowered BECAUSE of all the counters. I could live with the lower DPS if the delivery system were more reliable.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:50 AM by

You still have the bonus damage and bonus to hit from the arrows, so it's not exactly a normal unstyled attack. As stupid as it sounds, the arrows are basically the styles.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 11:28 AM by inoeth

"bow dmg here is low" lol what? i played a hunter back in the time and the bow dmg was really crap also with 45 bow which i had. now i only spec 27 max into bow because there is not much to gain with higher specs and the dmg is really great imo, even higher than i remember it was back then.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 3:18 PM by Zansobar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:50 AM
You still have the bonus damage and bonus to hit from the arrows, so it's not exactly a normal unstyled attack. As stupid as it sounds, the arrows are basically the styles.

I appreciate your responses and time, and I do not want to sound like I'm complaining, because what the devs have accomplished here is great. It's just that on Uthgard and here archery damage is not what it was back in the 1.65 ish days, which is frustrating because the DAOC archery system is the most "archery like" in any game i've ever played.

This being said, I am a little unsure why you would take one bit of information from a grab bag (concerning WS not being used) and then not take other things from grab bags (such as that weapon spec is compared to character level not enemy level when determining damage variance) - in the melee formula from the wikia that you are using here it is mob/target level.

Other things concerning archery that don't make sense is there are whole websites put up back in 2003 that are still in existence with detailed archery mechanics damage formulas, http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/archery_bow_mechanics.html - (these formulas were tested by the archery community at that time and generally matched the in game damage) and there are other bits of information from that time period that clearly state that archery is NOT treated the same as melee, yet Phoenix is using formulas that clearly state they are for melee damage, not archery. Also I don't know why you would assume that Live DAOC tests today would match what damage was done 15 years ago, even if the DAOC devs didn't state anywhere in patch notes over the years that they changed something, I'm sure there have been changes over the years not documented and there have been conflicting answers given in grab bags before. I'm very surprised you would change AF on players based on some recent tests on Live given the AF cap formula has been known and accepted for over 15 years and when used in conjunction with WS formulas predicted in game damage very well. Now it appears AF is buffed internally by about 60% over those levels (to match the damage I got in my archery tests on dummies from spec 1 to 28 using the 2012 melee damage formula for bow damage). I would think the more likely reason Live is different is because of the NUMEROUS increases in player power over the years via multiple mechanisms that are not available on a classic server, hence I would use any Live data very skeptically.

Again my two cents - sorry to sound like a broken record here but it's just frustrating that the only way to play an archer is to not spec in bow above 52 composite - which again - was not the way players did it back in the day - unless they were a hunter or a melee ranger.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 3:19 PM by Zansobar

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 11:28 AM
"bow dmg here is low" lol what? i played a hunter back in the time and the bow dmg was really crap also with 45 bow which i had. now i only spec 27 max into bow because there is not much to gain with higher specs and the dmg is really great imo, even higher than i remember it was back then.

Hunters always had bad bow damage because they could not get slow bows. Coupled with the fact that hunters had a two handed spear and also shorter bow range, a hunter was more designed to be used as a skirmisher than a sniper.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 6:11 PM by Emeryc

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 11:28 AM
"bow dmg here is low" lol what? i played a hunter back in the time and the bow dmg was really crap also with 45 bow which i had. now i only spec 27 max into bow because there is not much to gain with higher specs and the dmg is really great imo, even higher than i remember it was back then.

This is exactly my concern... when you gain little or nothing from speccing higher than 27(!) in a spec line, there is a SERIOUS problem with that spec line. I would strongly encourage the devs to look at how Archer archetypes are speccing and let that be a red flag.

I am not advocating for increased bow damage on a per-shot basis (sorry Zansobar and Cad.) I am advocating for more consistency in the ability to deliver said damage. Calculating DPS by shooting target dummies doesn't take into account the fact that, in RvR, you rarely get more than 2 shots off before the interrupt cycle is begun and the bow becomes useless. Now, consider bubbles, shields, evades, and misses and you have a high probability that one of those 2 shots is rendered ineffective. I doubt you will find a lower DPS offensive spec line, when calculated over time in an RvR setting. Moreover, there simply is no other line that will scale more poorly (and/or offer less gained benefit in terms of utility) as you spec higher in it than Archery .

Wed 16 Jan 2019 6:19 PM by

The af changes have nothing to do with af cap or something even remotely similar, please don't spread misinformation around an already misunderstood topic.

Anyone saying the damage before the change was fine either really has no clue what they're talking about or does so knowing that melee damage was way too high, before the change fully buffed archers always hit for cap on anything below chain and most full / light tanks were also rather close to cap under normal full capped rvr situations.
Many complaining also apparently did not notice that after the initial AF change (which made numbers match pend) there was another correction in the other direction again, two actually. Therefore any arguments saying live changed and had a damage decrease to accommodate all the damage increases they introduced are pretty much moot as those correction reverted any of those.

And sorry but a random site that contains known errors, like the one you linked, cannot be used as there is no way to verify it while there is an alternative that can still be verified. And the reason some information is taken from grab bags and not other is because the information that was taken can be verified, like the WS just being a display value, whereas other things could not be verified, like a 2 second hard cap on spell casting.

However, we might look into adjusting the damage calculation for archery via pend crossbow testing as that pretty much still works like old archery. While I kind of doubt that there are any differences, I also wouldn't be too surprised if spec actually works differently for that.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 7:05 PM by Waygone

@gruensschaf
Thanks so much for your time spent in working archery and helping us understand by discussing mechanics.
I think alot of the issue was caused by archer gank squads(grouped or not) multi crit shotting individual players. I know that was addressed.
I would like to see a reason to spec high bow skill. Just make the higher spec an available option w/o making archers too OP. Maybe something like has been suggested before like penetrating arrow that goes through and kills bladeturn. And/or a higher critshot that may be higher crit value but doesn't scale higher than the previous one.

Investing spec points past a certain point is not worth it most of the time except to get much needed skills. As it is now, there is hardly worth going over 30 bow for ANY reason.
Once again, just some suggestions and truly appreciate all the work you and the team are doing

Wed 16 Jan 2019 8:15 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:50 AM
You still have the bonus damage and bonus to hit from the arrows, so it's not exactly a normal unstyled attack. As stupid as it sounds, the arrows are basically the styles.

There's a massive difference between +10% damage to a particular armor type (which doesn't exist for cloth targets so that's +0%) vs an anytime style at +49% or a conditional style at +88%. Do not forget that Archery is highly conditional and interruptable.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 9:53 PM by

Don't forget the 25% damage bonus for the highest arrows

Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:10 PM by Zansobar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 9:53 PM
Don't forget the 25% damage bonus for the highest arrows

I'm curious is the AF formula you are using still (1 + absorb)*(your level)*10 ? I use that on my testing on the dummies and I cannot get the damage to match (based on the 2012 damage formula) unless I add 190 AF to a level 25 dummy (which is about 60% increase in AF over the normal cap amount). I know you said there was a bug where the AF on mobs/dummies and players was being adjusted by a factor of 20/50 and this was fixed to be 50/50 (1) I assume.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:31 PM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:10 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 9:53 PM
Don't forget the 25% damage bonus for the highest arrows

I'm curious is the AF formula you are using still (1 + absorb)*(your level)*10 ? I use that on my testing on the dummies and I cannot get the damage to match (based on the 2012 damage formula) unless I add 190 AF to a level 25 dummy (which is about 60% increase in AF over the normal cap amount). I know you said there was a bug where the AF on mobs/dummies and players was being adjusted by a factor of 20/50 and this was fixed to be 50/50 (1) I assume.

Pretty much all of the math regarding the AF boost which nerfed physical damage (which includes melee and archery) is way off.

Every 8 points of AF approximates to a 1% damage absorb (it's actually 8.something but I don't know the specific number). I have verified this by testing on live.

If base AF for all classes was boosted from 20AF to 45 AF melee and archery should show a 3% decrease in damage. However it was much greater than that, actually being somewhere between 20% to 30% damage reduction (I don't know the exact number right now, I would have to go digging through videos and screenshots for an exact number). This suggests that either AF was boosted between 160AF to 240AF, Absorb was boosted to somewhere between 20% to 30%, or a mix between the two.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 11:27 PM by

The inherent AF is not exactly the AF you see on your char screen, in fact you don't see the inherent af at all. The char screen AF has to be divided by 5 to get closer to the amount that will be used in the damage calculation, assuming you have the same quali / cond / level items in every slot. See the linked formula wrt enemy armor, the 20 there was 40 for pretty much the entire beta, was set to 20 in the middle of november (the high damage state) and set to 50 near the end (matching pend numbers) and went back to 45 and is since the stress test at 40 once more. Against mobs it's still 50 and default mob absorb is still 27 like chain.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 11:41 PM by Zansobar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 11:27 PM
The inherent AF is not exactly the AF you see on your char screen, in fact you don't see the inherent af at all. The char screen AF has to be divided by 5 to get closer to the amount that will be used in the damage calculation, assuming you have the same quali / cond / level items in every slot. See the linked foruma wrt enemy armor, the 20 there was 40 for pretty much the entire beta, was set to 20 in the middle of november (the high damage state) and set to 50 near the end (matching pend numbers) and went back to 45 and is since the stress test at 40 once more. Against mobs it's still 50 and default mob absorb is still 27 like chain.

Thanks I will check it out - I'm interested in making sure my test results match the intended values based on the melee damage formula from 2012.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 12:29 AM by Zansobar

Is the Item_Useable_AF for a level 25 mob (testing dummy) set to 25 or 50? Also for the damage_table for Archery are you using 22 * 2 = 44 unlike the 22 that would be used for melee? If I use those two settings I can get the damage to match my tests within a point or so across all spec ranges and three levels of dexterity.

That is the overall Enemy_armor I calculate for the level 25 testing dummy is 102.74 (assumes no spec af bonus, or enemy toa bonus, and 100% quality and 100% condition). Based on (50+25)/(1-0.27). Item_Useable_AF is the 25 in this last formula.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 12:59 AM by

Mobs, unless specified differently for a particular mob, are like chain wearer in terms of item af / absorb, quality increases with level and reaches 100% at 50. The inherent AF scales with level, at 50 mobs have 50.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:48 AM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 11:27 PM
The inherent AF is not exactly the AF you see on your char screen, in fact you don't see the inherent af at all. The char screen AF has to be divided by 5 to get closer to the amount that will be used in the damage calculation, assuming you have the same quali / cond / level items in every slot. See the linked formula wrt enemy armor, the 20 there was 40 for pretty much the entire beta, was set to 20 in the middle of november (the high damage state) and set to 50 near the end (matching pend numbers) and went back to 45 and is since the stress test at 40 once more. Against mobs it's still 50 and default mob absorb is still 27 like chain.

If inherent AF was boosted by only 20 then why are we seeing far more absorb than 2%? It just doesn't make sense. There was another tweak to the code that is not being revealed to the playerbase and that's just not cool.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:09 AM by inoeth

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 6:11 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 11:28 AM
"bow dmg here is low" lol what? i played a hunter back in the time and the bow dmg was really crap also with 45 bow which i had. now i only spec 27 max into bow because there is not much to gain with higher specs and the dmg is really great imo, even higher than i remember it was back then.

This is exactly my concern... when you gain little or nothing from speccing higher than 27(!) in a spec line, there is a SERIOUS problem with that spec line. I would strongly encourage the devs to look at how Archer archetypes are speccing and let that be a red flag.

I am not advocating for increased bow damage on a per-shot basis (sorry Zansobar and Cad.) I am advocating for more consistency in the ability to deliver said damage. Calculating DPS by shooting target dummies doesn't take into account the fact that, in RvR, you rarely get more than 2 shots off before the interrupt cycle is begun and the bow becomes useless. Now, consider bubbles, shields, evades, and misses and you have a high probability that one of those 2 shots is rendered ineffective. I doubt you will find a lower DPS offensive spec line, when calculated over time in an RvR setting. Moreover, there simply is no other line that will scale more poorly (and/or offer less gained benefit in terms of utility) as you spec higher in it than Archery .

actually i really like how it is, i hated the archery change to magic because there you had to spec 40+ to do at least a litle dmg. but then you are missing specpoints for other lines

Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:13 AM by

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:48 AM
If inherent AF was boosted by only 20 then why are we seeing far more absorb than 2%? It just doesn't make sense. There was another tweak to the code that is not being revealed to the playerbase and that's just not cool.

And starting unfounded accusations based on misunderstanding what that inherent af means is also not cool. I really don't know where you get that 20 inherent af, which corresponds to about a spec AF buff of 100 as that's divided by 5 for the damage calc, should be only 2% damage. We have been open about what formula we're using which means you can easily test for yourself what a change of the inherent af does.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:03 PM by Horus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:50 AM
You still have the bonus damage and bonus to hit from the arrows, so it's not exactly a normal unstyled attack. As stupid as it sounds, the arrows are basically the styles.

I understand where you are coming from here...but why then does an "unstyled" attack cost so much endurance? If shooting a bow is considered an unstyled attack it should use the same amount of endurance as any other unstyled melee attack. Right now it uses a ton...

So you say, "well it has to use some endurance". I understand. This is how it should work...

There are two ways to load your bow...from a non attack stature when you load your initial shot or crit shot and When you are already attacking... it says "you will automatically release your shot and reload". That 2nd situation should either use no endurance or very little.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:17 PM by Sepplord

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:03 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:50 AM
You still have the bonus damage and bonus to hit from the arrows, so it's not exactly a normal unstyled attack. As stupid as it sounds, the arrows are basically the styles.

I understand where you are coming from here...but why then does an "unstyled" attack cost so much endurance? If shooting a bow is considered an unstyled attack it should use the same amount of endurance as any other unstyled melee attack. Right now it uses a ton...

Huh?

but that is his point, shooting a bow isn't really like an unstyled attack. The arrows are the styles and every shot shoot arrows.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:55 PM by Horus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:17 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:03 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:50 AM
You still have the bonus damage and bonus to hit from the arrows, so it's not exactly a normal unstyled attack. As stupid as it sounds, the arrows are basically the styles.

I understand where you are coming from here...but why then does an "unstyled" attack cost so much endurance? If shooting a bow is considered an unstyled attack it should use the same amount of endurance as any other unstyled melee attack. Right now it uses a ton...

Huh?

but that is his point, shooting a bow isn't really like an unstyled attack. The arrows are the styles and every shot shoot arrows.

I suppose that is one interpretation...but then it begs the question, Are arrows treated like styles in terms of growth rates and effect of quickness and haste? If so this could be critical. Quickness affects fire rate and most archers try to max it... but it should not affect bow damage at is considered an unstyled attack (even with arrows). If raising quickness lowers arrow damage that is quite different than any classic server ever. It is standard operating formula that quickness and haste lower style damage but not unstyled. How about mastery of archery? The same thing applies. Not sure if this was tested in the beta but it should be. I'm fine with whatever, custom server, custom rules. I think we would just like to know....are arrows really treated as a "style" in the formula and affected by the same rules or just kind of a "virtual" style.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 4:17 PM by Zansobar

I don't believe you should take the statement "arrows are like the styles for bows" to mean that arrow bonus damage is adjusted downwards for haste and quickness like style damage. In my tests I think the arrow damage is applied correctly (it is probably being used in the toa_melee_bonus_damage variable spot of the dps formula from the camelot wikia since we don't have toa melee damage bonuses here.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:25 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:13 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:48 AM
If inherent AF was boosted by only 20 then why are we seeing far more absorb than 2%? It just doesn't make sense. There was another tweak to the code that is not being revealed to the playerbase and that's just not cool.

And starting unfounded accusations based on misunderstanding what that inherent af means is also not cool. I really don't know where you get that 20 inherent af, which corresponds to about a spec AF buff of 100 as that's divided by 5 for the damage calc, should be only 2% damage. We have been open about what formula we're using which means you can easily test for yourself what a change of the inherent af does.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:27 PM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:17 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:03 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:50 AM
You still have the bonus damage and bonus to hit from the arrows, so it's not exactly a normal unstyled attack. As stupid as it sounds, the arrows are basically the styles.

I understand where you are coming from here...but why then does an "unstyled" attack cost so much endurance? If shooting a bow is considered an unstyled attack it should use the same amount of endurance as any other unstyled melee attack. Right now it uses a ton...

Huh?

but that is his point, shooting a bow isn't really like an unstyled attack. The arrows are the styles and every shot shoot arrows.

Ya, styles with a 0.10 Growth Rate lmao. Sad, just sad.

It would be considered a Growth Rate if there was also an armor bonus on top of that number. Obviously there's not.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 8:19 PM by Zansobar

Well you do get 25% bonus from best quality arrows...the 10% bonus is from selecting the right damage type arrow for the armor you are shooting.

It does appear that bow damage is quite sensitive to that AF amount.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:13 PM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 8:19 PM
Well you do get 25% bonus from best quality arrows...the 10% bonus is from selecting the right damage type arrow for the armor you are shooting.

It does appear that bow damage is quite sensitive to that AF amount.

That's equivalent to saying that since people have access to 99% and 100% weapons they are considered buffed vs having to use 85% vendor weapons.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:21 PM by Zansobar

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:13 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 8:19 PM
Well you do get 25% bonus from best quality arrows...the 10% bonus is from selecting the right damage type arrow for the armor you are shooting.

It does appear that bow damage is quite sensitive to that AF amount.

That's equivalent to saying that since people have access to 99% and 100% weapons they are considered buffed vs having to use 85% vendor weapons.

As far as I know archers are the only ones that get a 25% bonus to base damage (from arrows with improved damage). That is a benefit of archery, yes it isn't as big of a benefit as some style damage bonuses but it is still a bonus.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:24 PM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:21 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:13 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 8:19 PM
Well you do get 25% bonus from best quality arrows...the 10% bonus is from selecting the right damage type arrow for the armor you are shooting.

It does appear that bow damage is quite sensitive to that AF amount.

That's equivalent to saying that since people have access to 99% and 100% weapons they are considered buffed vs having to use 85% vendor weapons.

As far as I know archers are the only ones that get a 25% bonus to base damage (from arrows with improved damage). That is a benefit of archery, yes it isn't as big of a benefit as some style damage bonuses but it is still a bonus.

The 25% bonus from using the top tier arrows isn't seen as a bonus, ever. Archery + top tier arrows at 25% is seen as the baseline damage, not damage +bonus by Mythic, Broadsword, Uthgard, Phoenix, and every other freeshard out there.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:39 PM by Zansobar

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:24 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:21 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:13 PM
That's equivalent to saying that since people have access to 99% and 100% weapons they are considered buffed vs having to use 85% vendor weapons.

As far as I know archers are the only ones that get a 25% bonus to base damage (from arrows with improved damage). That is a benefit of archery, yes it isn't as big of a benefit as some style damage bonuses but it is still a bonus.

The 25% bonus from using the top tier arrows isn't seen as a bonus, ever. Archery + top tier arrows at 25% is seen as the baseline damage, not damage +bonus by Mythic, Broadsword, Uthgard, Phoenix, and every other freeshard out there.

This 25% bonus is what the devs here on Phoenix appear to see as a bonus that is similar to the style bonuses on normal melee.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:55 PM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:24 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:21 PM
As far as I know archers are the only ones that get a 25% bonus to base damage (from arrows with improved damage). That is a benefit of archery, yes it isn't as big of a benefit as some style damage bonuses but it is still a bonus.

The 25% bonus from using the top tier arrows isn't seen as a bonus, ever. Archery + top tier arrows at 25% is seen as the baseline damage, not damage +bonus by Mythic, Broadsword, Uthgard, Phoenix, and every other freeshard out there.

This 25% bonus is what the devs here on Phoenix appear to see as a bonus that is similar to the style bonuses on normal melee.

Then it's still very underpowered. If it was a style damage bonus then it would have a GR of 0.25. the lowest anytime I'm aware of is 0.49, double that of the top tier arrow damage bonus.

Keep in mind that Archery has a whole host of conditional requirements. The conditional style with the lowest GR that I'm aware of that Hib has across all classes is Glowing Blade at 0.64 GR, which is two and a half times larger than the 0.25 GR you are claiming that Archery has.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:59 PM by Zansobar

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:55 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:24 PM
The 25% bonus from using the top tier arrows isn't seen as a bonus, ever. Archery + top tier arrows at 25% is seen as the baseline damage, not damage +bonus by Mythic, Broadsword, Uthgard, Phoenix, and every other freeshard out there.

This 25% bonus is what the devs here on Phoenix appear to see as a bonus that is similar to the style bonuses on normal melee.

Then it's still very underpowered. If it was a style damage bonus then it would have a GR of 0.25. the lowest anytime I'm aware of is 0.49, double that of the top tier arrow damage bonus.

Keep in mind that Archery has a whole host of conditional requirements. The conditional style with the lowest GR that I'm aware of that Hib has across all classes is Glowing Blade at 0.64 GR, which is two and a half times larger than the 0.25 GR you are claiming that Archery has.

I'm not saying I agree with it, only that it is a bonus unique to archery and that the devs think of it like a minor style growth rate.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:30 PM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:59 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:55 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:39 PM
This 25% bonus is what the devs here on Phoenix appear to see as a bonus that is similar to the style bonuses on normal melee.

Then it's still very underpowered. If it was a style damage bonus then it would have a GR of 0.25. the lowest anytime I'm aware of is 0.49, double that of the top tier arrow damage bonus.

Keep in mind that Archery has a whole host of conditional requirements. The conditional style with the lowest GR that I'm aware of that Hib has across all classes is Glowing Blade at 0.64 GR, which is two and a half times larger than the 0.25 GR you are claiming that Archery has.

I'm not saying I agree with it, only that it is a bonus unique to archery and that the devs think of it like a minor style growth rate.

"Minor" is putting it lightly.

Neither Mythic nor the clowns at Broadsword ever claimed the top tier damage arrows as a "bonus" to the Archery line.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:50 PM by

I don't really see how our dm history helps your accusation or contradicts what I wrote? The only change that happened against players is the increase from 20 inherent af to 50 which was later changed to 45 and now is 40 again.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 11:00 PM by

You really are reading too much into the style comparison, I was only pointing out that this:

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 5:54 AM
As far as I know Archery is an unstyled ranged (interruptable) 2handed attack. Being that unstyled hits have no to-hit bonus nor any damage multiplier wouldn't you agree that Archery is in fact underpowered, especially considering all of the counters there are to Archery?

Is wrong: it has a to hit bonus with the highest arrows, it has a damage multiplier with the highest arrows. I don't think of the arrows as a style, I just made the comparison as it has a similar net effect and hence archery is not exactly "just unstyled" damage.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 11:55 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:50 PM
I don't really see how our dm history helps your accusation or contradicts what I wrote? The only change that happened against players is the increase from 20 inherent af to 50 which was later changed to 45 and now is 40 again.

Here's why I posted that;

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:13 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 3:48 AM
If inherent AF was boosted by only 20 then why are we seeing far more absorb than 2%? It just doesn't make sense. There was another tweak to the code that is not being revealed to the playerbase and that's just not cool.

And starting unfounded accusations based on misunderstanding what that inherent af means is also not cool. I really don't know where you get that 20 inherent af, which corresponds to about a spec AF buff of 100 as that's divided by 5 for the damage calc, should be only 2% damage. We have been open about what formula we're using which means you can easily test for yourself what a change of the inherent af does.

Now on to the next issue;

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jan 2019 11:00 PM
You really are reading too much into the style comparison, I was only pointing out that this:

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 5:54 AM
As far as I know Archery is an unstyled ranged (interruptable) 2handed attack. Being that unstyled hits have no to-hit bonus nor any damage multiplier wouldn't you agree that Archery is in fact underpowered, especially considering all of the counters there are to Archery?

Is wrong: it has a to hit bonus with the highest arrows, it has a damage multiplier with the highest arrows. I don't think of the arrows as a style, I just made the comparison as it has a similar net effect and hence archery is not exactly "just unstyled" damage.

As far as I remember (I could be wrong on this) firing with the most accurate arrows still gives you a hit/miss rate that equals unstyled attacks.

In addition (not wrong on this), firing with the most accurate arrows has a lower chance of bypassing anyone with speccable Shield vs anyone using even an unstyled attack to get around Shields.

I do know that the "Extra Heavy" damage on Arrows adds damage to an arrow. If that's the case shouldn't you be balancing unstyled melee damage vs the regular damage Arrows?

I don't think there is any malice here but there are far too many contradictions present for anyone to feel comfortable with Archery vs melee damage, and definitely not vs magic damage. I'm presenting this information to clarify things, not to be a dick.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 7:30 AM by Isavyr

Cade,
I'm curious what you, or others, think archery damage should be. I played Ranger, Hunter, and Scout during beta and found each quite dealing competitive damage, though obviously different in utility. I don't agree with the premise that archery damage is too low. Furthermore, it's easier than ever to get a critical shot off.

Already scouts and rangers have 2100 range--that's amnesia range. They critical shot tanks harder than assassins perforate artery, and can deal whopping 800 critical shots on casters, in addition to firing 1.5 second shots with rapid fire that allows long-range disruption of multiple targets.

So what exactly is your desired future state with archery? Should they penetrate BT and 1-shot drop casters at 2k range? Should enemy tanks have no counter to their arrows, and have their shields ignored?

Fri 18 Jan 2019 9:21 AM by Cadebrennus

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 7:30 AM
Cade,
I'm curious what you, or others, think archery damage should be. I played Ranger, Hunter, and Scout during beta and found each quite dealing competitive damage, though obviously different in utility. I don't agree with the premise that archery damage is too low. Furthermore, it's easier than ever to get a critical shot off.

Already scouts and rangers have 2100 range--that's amnesia range. They critical shot tanks harder than assassins perforate artery, and can deal whopping 800 critical shots on casters, in addition to firing 1.5 second shots with rapid fire that allows long-range disruption of multiple targets.

So what exactly is your desired future state with archery? Should they penetrate BT and 1-shot drop casters at 2k range? Should enemy tanks have no counter to their arrows, and have their shields ignored?

You are definitely in the minority opinion of "it's easier than ever to get a crit shot off."

Regarding the astronomical damage you are claiming, I would love to see screenshots or video of those damage numbers on fully buffed targets, particularly against support classes wearing chainmail.

In addition, I am concerned about Archer damage in a sustained manner during REALM VS REALM fights, not some gankhole mentality about hitting base pot level cloth wearing semi-afk autorun solos that you can gank while charge and pot buffed. An Archer who has specced solely for those "big hits" from stealth against a lone low armored target folds almost as quickly as a list caster against a Tank or Assassin without even a tenth of the utility, and with a far less chance of getting away (just look at Archer tools for getting away vs quickcast.)

Furthermore, regarding tools, Perforate Artery has a follow up stun, in which both styles are delivered with poisons that further drop HP, slow the target, diminish healing, and add additional damage over time not to mention sap the fighting ability of the target if so needed. You should never compare one thing to another in a vacuum. It's dishonest and misleading. Always bring up all the capabilities brought to bear in a similar situation.

I am vehemently against 1shotting anything, but I think that Archers and Assassins should have more viability in regular RvR, not just in grief ganking and adding like a bunch of assholes. A huge part of that blame lies with Stealther players themselves. Another part lies with the Visi players. Another part lies with the developers and coders who force Stealther players into very specific playstyles.

On Live pre-August2016 I tested and proved the viability of Archers in Visi groups. It took years but Mid and then later Alb followed our lead and started adding Archers to Visi groups every so often, changing the RvR and group vs group dynamic leading to more fun and interesting play. That is my goal for Archers and Assassins. What is your goal? What are the goals of the Phoenix developers, especially where Stealthers are concerned? That's what you really need to ask.

If you want to see my goals and see the playstyle that I champion, then follow the link in my signature and view the videos where I group with Visis. I will never post the rare Stealth group video because they are boring and lame. I have no interest in making Stealthers or any class solo gods because that is not the point of DAOC. DAOC is about RvR, not 1v1.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 9:37 AM by Cadebrennus

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 7:30 AM
Cade,
I'm curious what you, or others, think archery damage should be. I played Ranger, Hunter, and Scout during beta and found each quite dealing competitive damage, though obviously different in utility. I don't agree with the premise that archery damage is too low. Furthermore, it's easier than ever to get a critical shot off.

Already scouts and rangers have 2100 range--that's amnesia range. They critical shot tanks harder than assassins perforate artery, and can deal whopping 800 critical shots on casters, in addition to firing 1.5 second shots with rapid fire that allows long-range disruption of multiple targets.

So what exactly is your desired future state with archery? Should they penetrate BT and 1-shot drop casters at 2k range? Should enemy tanks have no counter to their arrows, and have their shields ignored?

Also, this may seem like minutia, but Scout range is 2200, Ranger is 2100, and Hunter is 2000, all using top tier arrows.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 3:39 PM by Isavyr

You want an entire class philosophy redesigned--that's bold--but increased damage doesn't get you there. It just heightens their ability to do exactly what you don't want them to do--add and gank. And the way they're played isn't the fault of the players, as you claim, but the class design--which, by the way, isn't a problem with only archers, but all stealthers. If you want players to change their behavior, you need to change the design of the class. Stealthers are playing in an optimal way, which is (unfortunately) adding and ganking.

People don't run archers in visible groups because they aren't well rounded enough--it isn't the damage that they're lacking. To get them where you want them, you should be requesting expanded toolset or altered utility, imo.

I get that you're frustrated with where the class is currently, but I want to point out that this server has made archers the most viable of any classic server--the damage is far better than classic, and the addition of determination gives real potential for visible grouping.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:28 PM by imamo

its not about 'bow damage' we are mainly discussing. we are discussing 'bow damage and skill amount relation'. i also think there's a big issue here which should be investigated. as a scout or any archer my primary focus should be bow skill. but in this case (scout) 50 shield, high weapon (even 44 thrust) and stealth 10 ish bow is more viable build than high bow skill, which is pretty absurd.

i also noticed high miss chance. didnt test much but 5 scout with 5 bow skill have around %30 miss chance against blue mob. i m not sure how it is supposed to be but i have never had such a hard time to hit blue mob with bow for last 15+ years.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:48 PM by Zansobar

imamo wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:28 PM
its not about 'bow damage' we are mainly discussing. we are discussing 'bow damage and skill amount relation'. i also think there's a big issue here which should be investigated. as a scout or any archer my primary focus should be bow skill. but in this case (scout) 50 shield, high weapon (even 44 thrust) and stealth 10 ish bow is more viable build than high bow skill, which is pretty absurd.

i also noticed high miss chance. didnt test much but 5 scout with 5 bow skill have around %30 miss chance against blue mob. i m not sure how it is supposed to be but i have never had such a hard time to hit blue mob with bow for last 15+ years.

The miss rate is probably due to using the low quality inaccurate arrows...once you get the best arrows the miss rate seems to no longer be an issue.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 6:12 PM by Zansobar

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 3:39 PM
You want an entire class philosophy redesigned--that's bold--but increased damage doesn't get you there. It just heightens their ability to do exactly what you don't want them to do--add and gank. And the way they're played isn't the fault of the players, as you claim, but the class design--which, by the way, isn't a problem with only archers, but all stealthers. If you want players to change their behavior, you need to change the design of the class. Stealthers are playing in an optimal way, which is (unfortunately) adding and ganking.

People don't run archers in visible groups because they aren't well rounded enough--it isn't the damage that they're lacking. To get them where you want them, you should be requesting expanded toolset or altered utility, imo.

I get that you're frustrated with where the class is currently, but I want to point out that this server has made archers the most viable of any classic server--the damage is far better than classic, and the addition of determination gives real potential for visible grouping.

I guess my desires for the archers are much more modest than this. I just feel that the damage gains you get from speccing high in bow (overspeccing) are not as high as you got back in 2003 on Live. Of course I cannot prove it but to point to formulas for bow damage that incorporate different elements (slightly) than the melee damage formula being used here on Phoenix (that apparently was developed in 2012 about a decade after the classic time period on live). It is my belief that archery was never calculated the same as melee on live back in the day (I cannot prove it but through various web comments, testing, and resulting damage formulas developed from hardcore archers back in that time period). Regardless, I do not believe the devs here would want to make a special damage formula just for bows that would only really increase damage at high spec 15% to 25% over what you get now. So I won't suggest that. Phoenix archery damage is better than Uthgard but not as high as classic in my opinion and I'm thankful for the devs for getting us this far.

This being said - on Phoenix there is one small things that could improve archery to a state more similar to classic.

Arrow flight time. Earlier in beta there was arrow flight time - it was too long of a flight but now that the flight time is basically instant, this hurts archers. I suggest putting arrow flight time back in but at about half the flight time it was previously (double the flight speed of the arrows). Arrow flight time really has a big impact on the "feel" of archery and enhancing the immersion. On a related note, I see Animist bombers movement speed is about 1/2 what they should be (the bombers move very slow compared to where they were back in the day) so I'd like them to increase the travel speed on those bombers too.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 6:27 PM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:48 PM
imamo wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:28 PM
its not about 'bow damage' we are mainly discussing. we are discussing 'bow damage and skill amount relation'. i also think there's a big issue here which should be investigated. as a scout or any archer my primary focus should be bow skill. but in this case (scout) 50 shield, high weapon (even 44 thrust) and stealth 10 ish bow is more viable build than high bow skill, which is pretty absurd.

i also noticed high miss chance. didnt test much but 5 scout with 5 bow skill have around %30 miss chance against blue mob. i m not sure how it is supposed to be but i have never had such a hard time to hit blue mob with bow for last 15+ years.

The miss rate is probably due to using the low quality inaccurate arrows...once you get the best arrows the miss rate seems to no longer be an issue.

It's 8% to 10% on a yellow con mob with the best arrows. Tested it last night. Similar to a unstyled melee swing. I can't remember if melee is 10 or 15% though.

Also remember that Archery has a MASSIVE penalty vs a Shield user vs regular melee and no penalty, or DW which has a 25% bonus to negate the shield block rate.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 6:33 PM by Zansobar

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 6:27 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:48 PM
imamo wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:28 PM
its not about 'bow damage' we are mainly discussing. we are discussing 'bow damage and skill amount relation'. i also think there's a big issue here which should be investigated. as a scout or any archer my primary focus should be bow skill. but in this case (scout) 50 shield, high weapon (even 44 thrust) and stealth 10 ish bow is more viable build than high bow skill, which is pretty absurd.

i also noticed high miss chance. didnt test much but 5 scout with 5 bow skill have around %30 miss chance against blue mob. i m not sure how it is supposed to be but i have never had such a hard time to hit blue mob with bow for last 15+ years.

The miss rate is probably due to using the low quality inaccurate arrows...once you get the best arrows the miss rate seems to no longer be an issue.

It's 8% to 10% on a yellow con mob with the best arrows. Tested it last night. Similar to a unstyled melee swing. I can't remember if melee is 10 or 15% though.

Also remember that Archery has a MASSIVE penalty vs a Shield user vs regular melee and no penalty, or DW which has a 25% bonus to negate the shield block rate.

I'm not getting 8% to 10% miss rates on my ranger with a bow...I'm getting 3% to 4% on OJ mobs. Now I'm only around level 38 or so but that's what I get.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:14 PM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 6:33 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 6:27 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:48 PM
The miss rate is probably due to using the low quality inaccurate arrows...once you get the best arrows the miss rate seems to no longer be an issue.

It's 8% to 10% on a yellow con mob with the best arrows. Tested it last night. Similar to a unstyled melee swing. I can't remember if melee is 10 or 15% though.

Also remember that Archery has a MASSIVE penalty vs a Shield user vs regular melee and no penalty, or DW which has a 25% bonus to negate the shield block rate.

I'm not getting 8% to 10% miss rates on my ranger with a bow...I'm getting 3% to 4% on OJ mobs. Now I'm only around level 38 or so but that's what I get.

Maybe the level difference. I was level 19 last night.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:21 PM by Zansobar

Maybe miss rate is affected by aggregate spec level and not spec in relation to the level of the mob you are attacking? Since my spec was higher than yours given my higher level?

Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:26 PM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:21 PM
Maybe miss rate is affected by aggregate spec level and not spec in relation to the level of the mob you are attacking? Since my spec was higher than yours given my higher level?

It's a possibility. I'm also playing with as low Archery as I can away with since I am comparing leveling a nearly unspecced Archery (I think it's 3 Archery right now) vs a Nightshade who has unspecced range damage. I was leveling them both up concurrently and comparing damage over time and kill rate per endo/mana bar. So far it's fairly even between the two, which is sad for Rangers. What I can say so far is that the DPS is the same, and the only possible benefit to an Archer is 600 more range, and a speccable ranged line. I'm not sure how much advantage there will be from actually speccing bow, but I will post DPS numbers at level 49.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:37 PM by Emeryc

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 7:30 AM
I'm curious what you, or others, think archery damage should be. I played Ranger, Hunter, and Scout during beta and found each quite dealing competitive damage, though obviously different in utility. I don't agree with the premise that archery damage is too low. Furthermore, it's easier than ever to get a critical shot off.

Already scouts and rangers have 2100 range--that's amnesia range. They critical shot tanks harder than assassins perforate artery, and can deal whopping 800 critical shots on casters, in addition to firing 1.5 second shots with rapid fire that allows long-range disruption of multiple targets.

So what exactly is your desired future state with archery? Should they penetrate BT and 1-shot drop casters at 2k range? Should enemy tanks have no counter to their arrows, and have their shields ignored?

While I agree with the sentiment that bow damage on a per shot basis is not of grave concern, much of the remainder of your post is really problematic, but Cadebrennus addressed it perfectly, so I won't waste time repeating it.

Your comment about "amnesia range" strikes at the heart of the problem with Archery... ANY ability, spell, shout or taunt which interrupts COMPLETELY removes the bow from the encounter via the interrupt cycle. Every single class has one or more of these abilities available to them in either an instant form or usable in tandem with Quickcast and/or MoC. This means that every, single target can eliminate a bow from every encounter. When this is part of the RvR dynamic, bow damage great or small becomes meaningless because it is impossible to deliver it. Consider that many of these abilities have near equal or equal (and in some cases greater(?)) range than bows and you are left with one question: Why would I ever spec in the Bow line?

And none of this even factors in bubbles, shields, evades and misses.

I really think that all of us are looking for the same thing in an Archer (not Archer classes, mind you, but ARCHERS): viability OUTSIDE of the gank/solo/leech/stealth war game, which many of us despise. I would love to see the devs work on this.

Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:43 PM by Zansobar

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:26 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:21 PM
Maybe miss rate is affected by aggregate spec level and not spec in relation to the level of the mob you are attacking? Since my spec was higher than yours given my higher level?

It's a possibility. I'm also playing with as low Archery as I can away with since I am comparing leveling a nearly unspecced Archery (I think it's 3 Archery right now) vs a Nightshade who has unspecced range damage. I was leveling them both up concurrently and comparing damage over time and kill rate per endo/mana bar. So far it's fairly even between the two, which is sad for Rangers. What I can say so far is that the DPS is the same, and the only possible benefit to an Archer is 600 more range, and a speccable ranged line. I'm not sure how much advantage there will be from actually speccing bow, but I will post DPS numbers at level 49.

Well Nightshades are a unique one as they received a huge buff on this server in that dexterity was set as their acuity stat (which affects their magic damage) so they can just dump everything they can into dex and get big improvements to their Nightshade magic damage. The other assassins didn't get such a buff.

Sat 19 Jan 2019 2:08 AM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:43 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:26 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:21 PM
Maybe miss rate is affected by aggregate spec level and not spec in relation to the level of the mob you are attacking? Since my spec was higher than yours given my higher level?

It's a possibility. I'm also playing with as low Archery as I can away with since I am comparing leveling a nearly unspecced Archery (I think it's 3 Archery right now) vs a Nightshade who has unspecced range damage. I was leveling them both up concurrently and comparing damage over time and kill rate per endo/mana bar. So far it's fairly even between the two, which is sad for Rangers. What I can say so far is that the DPS is the same, and the only possible benefit to an Archer is 600 more range, and a speccable ranged line. I'm not sure how much advantage there will be from actually speccing bow, but I will post DPS numbers at level 49.

Well Nightshades are a unique one as they received a huge buff on this server in that dexterity was set as their acuity stat (which affects their magic damage) so they can just dump everything they can into dex and get big improvements to their Nightshade magic damage. The other assassins didn't get such a buff.

I was testing with a Luri NS with +15 strength so even with only +10 in Dex the primary casting stat, NS damage still kept pace with Ranger damage.

Sat 19 Jan 2019 3:05 AM by Isavyr

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:43 PM
Well Nightshades are a unique one as they received a huge buff on this server in that dexterity was set as their acuity stat (which affects their magic damage) so they can just dump everything they can into dex and get big improvements to their Nightshade magic damage. The other assassins didn't get such a buff.

Nightshades also lost their unique RAs that gave them an edge at higher RR (Viper, Wild Arcana). Everyone has the same tools, which is bad, because the nightshade doesn't get the 2.5x spec points or incredible styles of infiltrator (dragon fang or dual shadows), nor do they get the guaranteed double attack (+double poison) and guaranteed haste effect of every attack that shadowblades get. Would love to get more data on this, but I doubt that nightshades are even doing equivalent damage to their counterparts with their magic factored in, making them possibly the lousiest assassin of this meta.

Sat 19 Jan 2019 6:32 AM by Redzus

Lv 50 ranger - 50 Archery 1% miss rate vs yellow 1,5% vs orange 3% vs red 8% against trash mobs in gala 3% against bossess in gala, used arrows Crated X-range, X-damage, improved accuracy looks fine to me

Sat 19 Jan 2019 9:16 AM by Cadebrennus

Redzus wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Jan 2019 6:32 AM
Lv 50 ranger - 50 Archery 1% miss rate vs yellow 1,5% vs orange 3% vs red 8% against trash mobs in gala 3% against bossess in gala, used arrows Crated X-range, X-damage, improved accuracy looks fine to me

It's been shown time and again by many testers here that 50 Archery is a waste of spec points. Even sniper spec is 40 or 45 Archery. The consensus across all realms is that 35 Archery gives the most bang for the buck. Have you tested miss rates at 35 Archery? I think that a lot of people would like to see a comparison. Also, what is your buffed Dex and WS showing? I am curious to see those numbers as well.

Sat 19 Jan 2019 9:25 AM by Isavyr

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:37 PM
I really think that all of us are looking for the same thing in an Archer (not Archer classes, mind you, but ARCHERS): viability OUTSIDE of the gank/solo/leech/stealth war game, which many of us despise. I would love to see the devs work on this.

What do you think should be added, Emeryc?

Sat 19 Jan 2019 9:39 AM by Redzus

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Jan 2019 9:16 AM
Redzus wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Jan 2019 6:32 AM
Lv 50 ranger - 50 Archery 1% miss rate vs yellow 1,5% vs orange 3% vs red 8% against trash mobs in gala 3% against bossess in gala, used arrows Crated X-range, X-damage, improved accuracy looks fine to me

It's been shown time and again by many testers here that 50 Archery is a waste of spec points. Even sniper spec is 40 or 45 Archery. The consensus across all realms is that 35 Archery gives the most bang for the buck. Have you tested miss rates at 35 Archery? I think that a lot of people would like to see a comparison. Also, what is your buffed Dex and WS showing? I am curious to see those numbers as well.

While leveling with same arrows at that level miss rates been 10-20% or greated on purple

maybe become 50 first then do your test also damage is greatly improved on 50

Sat 19 Jan 2019 5:02 PM by Emeryc

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Jan 2019 9:25 AM
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:37 PM
I really think that all of us are looking for the same thing in an Archer (not Archer classes, mind you, but ARCHERS): viability OUTSIDE of the gank/solo/leech/stealth war game, which many of us despise. I would love to see the devs work on this.

What do you think should be added, Emeryc?

Well, in a broad sense, two things:
1) A reason to spec higher than 30 or 35 in the bow line. Some would interpret this as "a reason to spec the bow line at all." As I have suggested before, most experienced Archer players recognize that the spec points are far better spent in other lines, melee lines for a Ranger, Spear for a Hunter and even Shield for a Scout. When the class defining spec line of a class is generally specced as an afterthought, that is a huge design flaw.
2) Utility, hopefully in the Bow line, that will increase viability in an RvR setting. This is probably the more difficult of the two. Finding something an Archer can do better (or at least as good) as anyone else... something that would make an Archer a real asset to a group.

In a more specific sense, I would like more efficacy out of the bow as I spec more highly in it. This doesn't mean more damage, per se. It means greater ability for the bow to be effective. Something to bring Archers out of the gank/stealth war mentality. Something to give them the ability to have an impact on the larger picture of RvR.

There have been several suggestions. I would advocate for some sort of resistance to the interrupt cycle (akin to Quickcast?) at a high bow spec, like 40 or 45. Or perhaps an inherent increase in speed, +1% at 30, +2% at 35 and so on until 50. Or Penetrating Arrow III at 50 Bow spec. These are all existing mechanics that wouldn't change the DPS of the bow, but would make the Archer a better participant in the larger RvR picture.

Sat 19 Jan 2019 5:13 PM by Cadebrennus

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Jan 2019 5:02 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Jan 2019 9:25 AM
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jan 2019 11:37 PM
I really think that all of us are looking for the same thing in an Archer (not Archer classes, mind you, but ARCHERS): viability OUTSIDE of the gank/solo/leech/stealth war game, which many of us despise. I would love to see the devs work on this.

What do you think should be added, Emeryc?

Well, in a broad sense, two things:
1) A reason to spec higher than 30 or 35 in the bow line. Some would interpret this as "a reason to spec the bow line at all." As I have suggested before, most experienced Archer players recognize that the spec points are far better spent in other lines, melee lines for a Ranger, Spear for a Hunter and even Shield for a Scout. When the class defining spec line of a class is generally specced as an afterthought, that is a huge design flaw.
2) Utility, hopefully in the Bow line, that will increase viability in an RvR setting. This is probably the more difficult of the two. Finding something an Archer can do better (or at least as good) as anyone else... something that would make an Archer a real asset to a group.

In a more specific sense, I would like more efficacy out of the bow as I spec more highly in it. This doesn't mean more damage, per se. It means greater ability for the bow to be effective. Something to bring Archers out of the gank/stealth war mentality. Something to give them the ability to have an impact on the larger picture of RvR.

There have been several suggestions. I would advocate for some sort of resistance to the interrupt cycle (akin to Quickcast?) at a high bow spec, like 40 or 45. Or perhaps an inherent increase in speed, +1% at 30, +2% at 35 and so on until 50. Or Penetrating Arrow III at 50 Bow spec. These are all existing mechanics that wouldn't change the DPS of the bow, but would make the Archer a better participant in the larger RvR picture.

Sad but true. Based on input from others I am going to try 13 bow spec and split spec my melee as a Visi group member. Normally I advocate 35 Archery for Rapid Fire in Visi group play. However I'm going to try and see if I could be as good an interrupter without Rapid Fire since Archers still have a 500 to 700 unit range advantage on list Casters. By only spending 13 spec points on a class defining ability that is easily shut down by Nearsight hopefully I won't feel the sting of Nearsight as badly since the other spec lines will be very much strengthened spec-wise.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 7:35 AM by Emeryc

Interesting how viable and effective Archery is in PvE when the barriers to DPS are missing (no shields, evades, nearsight or interrupts.) Damage on a per shot basis isn't great but it's not awful. But I can consistently land 2 or 3 shots on each mob without getting interrupted, which is huge.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 12:33 AM by

Just some random old posts talking about there being little use in high bow spec, some quite early, some after the addition of RF2 etc:

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/any-chance-of-a-well-explained-spec-for-a-ranger.155831/
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/advices-for-scouts.96418/
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/hunter-advice-needed.119853/

Wed 30 Jan 2019 2:00 AM by Afuldan

It’s due to being able to land those shots in PvE that makes speccing high bow for RvR a noob trap.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 2:27 AM by Waygone

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 12:33 AM
Just some random old posts talking about there being little use in high bow spec, some quite early, some after the addition of RF2 etc:

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/any-chance-of-a-well-explained-spec-for-a-ranger.155831/
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/advices-for-scouts.96418/
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/hunter-advice-needed.119853/

Thanks for researching those gruen. I know values are custom here for archery here on Phoenix but the fact that the first post you linked talks about overall ranger damage being weak(w/o buffbots), as well as a good number of experienced players with the same sentiments, make me wonder if the low return on higher archer spec is something the devs have envisioned for this server?
I am only 29 on my scout but have heard that without bot buffs archery damage is fairly weak atm. I know this is classic but things started to change drastically around this patch level on live DAoC as buffbots were being incorporated to systematically increase damage to archery. With new RAs and classes available it seems archery is lagging behind in the overall damage race..
Maybe you could help me understand why thos might not be the case?

Thanks

Wed 30 Jan 2019 8:40 AM by Cadebrennus

One of the huge missteps on Phoenix is matching physical damage on Phoenix (melee and archery) to physical damage on Live. Physical damage on Live was heavily (and quietly) nerfed in August 2016 to dial back much of the bonuses from TOAs and Mythicals. Certain classes (such as Assassins and Tanks) were re-boosted directly via styles specifically for their classes and all others were left nerfed (including Archers). Rather than base Phoenix damage on Live the damage here should be based on what the code actually read for the 1.65 or 1.87 patch.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 10:13 AM by

Please stop saying we matched physical damage on live. That was the case for 3 days in beta.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 6:03 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 10:13 AM
Please stop saying we matched physical damage on live. That was the case for 3 days in beta.

So where exactly is it now? Is it at 1.65 or 1.87 patch level or something else?

Wed 30 Jan 2019 7:28 PM by

Unless you happen to have some way to confirm it it's somewhere between those but closer to 1.65. Base damage values seen in old videos, old combat logs and similar things are reproducible with our formula / are within the 0 - 49 variance range, in a level 50 player vs player setting. Some of those comparisons are obviously guess work on the exact stats but ignoring anything done against low rr people (to avoid no sc / bad resist cases) and given the rather small direct impact of 10 strength it seems reasonable and looks like we're actually close.
I haven't seen any source with reasonably assumable stats (full cap sc) so far where the observed damage was more than 7 (alb 2h) points off of what would be our minimum or maximum damage. But the limited amount of usable source material really doesn't help.
If you find some source where the damage numbers are legible and patch level is about known and stats can be assumed from the visible equipment I'd be happy to run the numbers and give you the expected min / max range.

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