Specifics on stealth group visibility change?

The change implemented today:

- stealther with friendly players around can be detected from further away

seems ill-considered and COMPLETELY lacking in specifics.

What is a "friendly player"? Is that a groupmate? Do they have to be stealthed as well for this effect? If a realmmate (not groupmate) runs by, does that make me more visible?

And...what is "further away?" Twice as far as normal based on enemy level? A fixed amount? Does it scale with the number of "friendly players?"

And...how will I know if this effect happens -- that I am more easily detectable? Will there be any warning or indication?

Only maybe 1/5 of my characters are stealthers, so I see both sides of the stealth game. And I can see why this change wasn't mentioned at all under "planned changes" -- it comes across as a knee-jerk reaction from somebody running into a group at the docks and being angry about dying.

Sat 9 May 2020 5:35 PM by piero

I think, if u are a stealther with a lot of friendly target near to u, in case a group of full of stealth, or a lot of people of the same realm, enemies can see u better

Sat 9 May 2020 5:42 PM by Delegator

Yes I get that, but like I said, it doesn't say whether friendly means grouped or not, or whether it's just other stealthers, or how much better others can see you. E.g. is it like a free Lucidity potion for everybody if I duo?

Sat 9 May 2020 5:57 PM by gotwqqd

This is great way to fix stealth
Increase detection range for either
A. Concentration of a specific enemy realm stealth

Or

B. Concentration of all enemy realm stealth

Sat 9 May 2020 6:00 PM by Delegator

Without any statement of what supposedly needs to be "fixed" that is a complete non sequitur.

Sat 9 May 2020 6:02 PM by LikeaBoss

I have 0 issues with these changes - but would like some clarification on the specifics.

Sat 9 May 2020 6:38 PM by LikeaBoss

Uthred confirmed in discord that the change applies to ALL realm mates. The more friendlies in the area - the larger the detection range. He was unsure of the detection bonus per person at that time.

This creates some difficulty for stealthers participating in keep sieges as climbing walls invisible to assassinate targets is more or less impossible depending on how big the range is. Traveling on boats to get to boat drops is another issue - if 2-3 stealth are going to near the same place - it makes us all more vulnerable. This can be overcome by taking separate boats and/or jumping early/later but it's an annoyance for sure.

It also opens up quite a few more questions like how long does the bonus last - for example if a FG rolls over you in a train going somewhere - are you stuck with a higher detection range for 30 sec etc. How close does someone have to be - if it's 1k range, but you can only see another friendly stealther at 500 units, you could be stuck more visible without even knowing it.

Sat 9 May 2020 7:19 PM by Delegator

From Discord:

UthredToday at 2:26 PM
anyone from your realm
the more friendly players around you, the higher the range

Sorry, but to me this is nonsensical. A full group from my realm happens by and suddenly I can be detectable from much further away? What is the rationale there?

and as for detection range:

@Sohwillkill tbh, not 100% sure. but as always, depending on feedback and depending on what we are monitoring, things may get changed

How are we supposed to give feedback based on something we don't even know the specifics of? For the bow damage changes I could and did test them and see the results. For this... what do we do, stand around in larger groups until somebody can see and attack us?

UthredToday at 2:27 PM
we are addressing stealth zerg with that change

As others have asked...what about assist train? Stun zerg? Etc? What exactly is being "addressed" here -- groups with too many stealthers? Don't want people camping docks? Don't want somebody able to stealth up a keep wall when there are healers at the wall base?

Imagine saying "If you have more than 1 healer in a group, healing effectiveness drops by 10% per healer. If you have a Druid, Warden and Mentalist then they each heal at 70%." Or, "if you have more than one CC class nearby, casting range is reduced. The more CC, the shorter the range." If those sound ridiculous to you, then you will understand how this change sounds to most people with any stealthers.

And why, instead of putting this in unnanounced, wasn't this put out as a proposed change with a discussion of what it was fixing and what the possibilities were? Even those changes have seen immediate adjustments (e.g. today's bow damage reduction after the initial increase was too large, or the change to crit RAs only adjusting crit chance and not damage percent the day after that chance). Putting in something drastic like this, targeted at a specific set of classes, without any feedback or warning...just boggles the mind why it would be done that way.

Sat 9 May 2020 9:03 PM by piero

This is the ruin to play a stealther i will give a look with thins change, if I don't like it, will be easier to leave the server.
I play to have fun, but If I want to play a stealther is because I want to play a stealther and not a vidi one..
In this case I will feel forced to play other toob or quit.
Easy and simple

Sat 9 May 2020 9:08 PM by Quik

Delegator wrote: ↑
Sat 9 May 2020 7:19 PM
And why, instead of putting this in unnanounced, wasn't this put out as a proposed change with a discussion of what it was fixing and what the possibilities were?

Not sure if people realize, the Pheonix staff are the people who have built this server and made things the way they want. They have asked us on a few things, but they are not obligated in any way to ask us.

If they feel stealthers were becoming more of a nuisance grouping together like it has been happening more and more, they are under no obligation to ask our opinion. If they don't want it then that ends it until someone here convinces them otherwise.

God I love how people are always saying LET US VOTE!!! We play on their server on their dime and their time, in what world do people think they have a right to demand changes at a whim LOL? People want to ride in MY car? They get to listen to MY music and it is not up for discussion.

I understand you were just asking for a discussion which seems understandable, I have just seen a lot of posts lately demanding a vote on all the changes of late.

Sat 9 May 2020 9:18 PM by Kwall0311

This should only work with other stealth. If visi groups run by docks or bridges, or youre near the zerg its just creating problems that have nothing to do with stealth zerging. 100% thumbs down

Sat 9 May 2020 10:28 PM by Delegator

Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 May 2020 9:08 PM
Not sure if people realize, the Pheonix staff are the people who have built this server and made things the way they want. They have asked us on a few things, but they are not obligated in any way to ask us.

If they feel stealthers were becoming more of a nuisance grouping together like it has been happening more and more, they are under no obligation to ask our opinion. If they don't want it then that ends it until someone here convinces them otherwise.

God I love how people are always saying LET US VOTE!!! We play on their server on their dime and their time, in what world do people think they have a right to demand changes at a whim LOL? People want to ride in MY car? They get to listen to MY music and it is not up for discussion.

I understand you were just asking for a discussion which seems understandable, I have just seen a lot of posts lately demanding a vote on all the changes of late.

1. Uthred specifically said in discord to give feedback and ask questions here

2. I am NOT demanding changed on a time. I am just asking for an explanation of the changes that were made, and observing that every major change of late has had to be amended within a day or two...and that was even AFTER asking for feedback and input. What is likely to happen when such a change is made WITHOUT any such feedback?

Sat 9 May 2020 11:02 PM by Quik

Delegator wrote: ↑
Sat 9 May 2020 10:28 PM
I understand you were just asking for a discussion which seems understandable, I have just seen a lot of posts lately demanding a vote on all the changes of late.

1. Uthred specifically said in discord to give feedback and ask questions here

2. I am NOT demanding changed on a time. I am just asking for an explanation of the changes that were made, and observing that every major change of late has had to be amended within a day or two...and that was even AFTER asking for feedback and input. What is likely to happen when such a change is made WITHOUT any such feedback?
[/quote]

Apparently you didn't read the last line in my thread which is where I SAID you were just asking for a discussion and this thread was more about the others on the forums demanding a vote on everything.

I specifically pointed this out in my post...and I understand they want feedback and I never said they did...

Again I SAID you just wanted a discussion...

Sat 9 May 2020 11:05 PM by Viensdanser

@GameMaster Why changed the stealth for the stealthers ? Full group of stealthers are in paper against a full group and stealth detection is increase by all.

The game is changed for the stealthers. GM remove one line of the spec. It's not normal.... It breaks the game of stealthers... And no pleasure to play anymore if all can see stealthers everywhere and anytime..... I prefer to stop DAOC in this case... If we can't play with a normal stealth.... IF the stealth line has no utility now, why the interest to play a stealther ? it's useless....

For the bow, it's the same. It's impossible to kill one guy with bow. May be by a sniper spec and not easy. And GM prefer nerf bow ? Because a lot of people cry ?

Menestrels are too strong (red pet, speed, mez, stun, etc...), like bodydancers and it's normal. And GM nerf the bow ? it's not normal.

I believe that certains people doesn't like to kill by a stealther, that's all..... STEALTHERS MUST JUST BE SOME RP ON FEET ? Viensdanser Ranger 7L

Sat 9 May 2020 11:53 PM by Norhir

I get that we have lots of Stealthers around lately, but this change breaks the stealth mechanic.
Even worse for Assassins who have to get close to their enemy to utilize their most powerfull strikes.
I dont have control over other people, but now friendly players have control over me.

This, in my opinion, is 100% the wrong way to change something. The stealth ability is the absolute foundation for those classes, you can't tweak it,

Sun 10 May 2020 1:08 PM by Lillebror

stealthers melee is (in special PA) lack luster due to they can pick fights, now that is nerfed to ground.

I want nerfed heales and dps by 50% if 2fg of same realm are in same region (no warning)

If you want a anti stealth zerg mecanic make offensive stealth detection lower for each member above 4. Thought i think demotivate grping in a mmo aint a good place to be.

Just restart server with out ani, necro, bd and stealthers tbh.

Sun 10 May 2020 6:55 PM by leb

seriously, this nerf should be only apply in case of a group of stealthers

Sun 10 May 2020 8:08 PM by brewtus23

These drastic changes are extremely damaging to the game. This game was designed with all types of play styles in mind and each type of play style feeds off the other. Just like this game is made with pve and pvp. With out one you don't have the other. They complement each other and help each survive. Once you start talking away or limiting a play style the rest of the game will suffer as well. I see people crying about stealth zergs.... Someone please tell me what stealth zergs are really out here.... I run a group of scouts, usually maybe 4 scouts, mins, and a visi toon from the guild from time to time and normally we are with the bg, we have run the task a few times and mainly have ran into the other stealth groups from midgard and hibernia. This resulted in some amazing fights and alot of fun. This change to pretty much limit stealthers from grouping isn't right and it isn't fair. If a visi group has 2 healing classes in a group we do require that their healing is reduced to make it fair to a group who might only have 1 healing class..... What if my visi group has 2 cc classes and the other group i am fighting only has 1, do we make my groups cc abilities less effective to make it fair so the other group doesn't get upset... Archery damage was increased and it was wayyyyyyyy to much, so they reduced it, that is perfect example of something that needed to be fixed and then adjusted. This stealth destruction is way out of line and way over the top and going to be damaging to the entire game play.

Sun 10 May 2020 8:23 PM by Quik

brewtus23 wrote: ↑
Sun 10 May 2020 8:08 PM
Someone please tell me what stealth zergs are really out here.... I run a group of scouts, usually maybe 4 scouts, mins, and a visi toon from the guild from time to time and normally we are with the bg

Honestly not sure what the rule is, but on Mid I am always seeing people say they consider 4+ stealthers a "stealth zerg" which seems a bit odd, but whatever I guess.

Sun 10 May 2020 8:25 PM by brewtus23

Dam game has been around for almost 20 years and stealthers have always been apart of it and some how some way it has survived. now all of a sudden a few people are upset about getting killed by a group of stealthers and the world is coming to an end. yes full bg's of visi toons run down solo, smallman and 8 man groups and it is ok and working as intended

Sun 10 May 2020 9:07 PM by Kimahri

brewtus23 wrote: ↑
Sun 10 May 2020 8:08 PM
These drastic changes are extremely damaging to the game. This game was designed with all types of play styles in mind and each type of play style feeds off the other. Just like this game is made with pve and pvp. With out one you don't have the other. They complement each other and help each survive. Once you start talking away or limiting a play style the rest of the game will suffer as well. I see people crying about stealth zergs.... Someone please tell me what stealth zergs are really out here.... I run a group of scouts, usually maybe 4 scouts, mins, and a visi toon from the guild from time to time and normally we are with the bg, we have run the task a few times and mainly have ran into the other stealth groups from midgard and hibernia. This resulted in some amazing fights and alot of fun. This change to pretty much limit stealthers from grouping isn't right and it isn't fair. If a visi group has 2 healing classes in a group we do require that their healing is reduced to make it fair to a group who might only have 1 healing class..... What if my visi group has 2 cc classes and the other group i am fighting only has 1, do we make my groups cc abilities less effective to make it fair so the other group doesn't get upset... Archery damage was increased and it was wayyyyyyyy to much, so they reduced it, that is perfect example of something that needed to be fixed and then adjusted. This stealth destruction is way out of line and way over the top and going to be damaging to the entire game play.

Pls explain how stealth zergs help other playstyles exist, I'm trying really hard to take your argument seriously

Sun 10 May 2020 9:21 PM by Neso

- the stealther detection range increase now only counts stealthed friendly players and no longer applies while in a keep / tower area

Seems a decent update.

Sun 10 May 2020 9:21 PM by brewtus23

first define a stealth zerg in what your vision is! A group of stealthers isn't a zerg, that is simply a group. Which my group of stealthers have many times been rolled by the 8 man visi groups and by the bg. The point is every play style provides some form of realm points to either each other or the next higher sized group. Guess what solo's still going to get rolled by the 8 mans and bg's even without stealthers. This is stupid to even be thinking of punishing players who want to play together with their friends who play stealthers. But it is perfectly fine for a group or two of visi's to run around together and steam roll anyone they see... get real

Sun 10 May 2020 9:38 PM by Kimahri

brewtus23 wrote: ↑
Sun 10 May 2020 9:21 PM
first define a stealth zerg in what your vision is! A group of stealthers isn't a zerg, that is simply a group. Which my group of stealthers have many times been rolled by the 8 man visi groups and by the bg. The point is every play style provides some form of realm points to either each other or the next higher sized group. Guess what solo's still going to get rolled by the 8 mans and bg's even without stealthers. This is stupid to even be thinking of punishing players who want to play together with their friends who play stealthers. But it is perfectly fine for a group or two of visi's to run around together and steam roll anyone they see... get real

Yall can identify by w/e pronoun you desire, stealth zerg, group, smallman, it's all the same to me. The whole reason you group is to choose your fights against soloers/smaller numbers, then quickly restealth and hide from everything else. (Thereby not giving rp to 8man and bg like you claim) I laugh at all these comments from zergers saying they hit visible smallmans, yet have never seen a video proving it. These changes are very welcome, no more walking head first into a bunch of mouth breathers stuck to their group leader in stealth who don't know how to play their class except for spamming anytimers. Prepare to actually feel the wrath of 8mans because they can now see your circle jerk from a mile away.

Mon 11 May 2020 11:17 AM by SlowMo

Kimahri wrote: ↑
Sun 10 May 2020 9:38 PM
These changes are very welcome, no more walking head first into a bunch of mouth breathers stuck to their group leader in stealth who don't know how to play their class except for spamming anytimers. Prepare to actually feel the wrath of 8mans because they can now see your circle jerk from a mile away.

I get that point, but how is this any different from visible FG´s steam rolling small men and solos? In the end it comes down to the same thing.

With that change you hit solo Sins aswell, which I dont think is the intention of the change.

Whats with Ranged Sins? Are they able to stay in bow range of each other but outside of the visibility penaltiy?

Mon 11 May 2020 12:03 PM by imweasel

I think this is signaling the beginning of the end of this server. At least for a healthy, populated one.

Amnesia changes. Minstrel changes. Style changes. Out of the blue stealth spec destruction.

Everyone is correct about "their right" to code this server as they like.

Just like everyone playing on it can just quit.

The timing is horrible, considering the pay servers are coming out with their own style of "classic servers".

It won't take much of this to cause a population migration, then all of their work and money spent on this project will be for naught.

And they should be happy if that happens. Because they sure are working hard to achieve it...

Mon 11 May 2020 12:41 PM by inoeth

imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 12:03 PM
I think this is signaling the beginning of the end of this server. At least for a healthy, populated one.

Amnesia changes. Minstrel changes. Style changes. Out of the blue stealth spec destruction.

Everyone is correct about "their right" to code this server as they like.

Just like everyone playing on it can just quit.

The timing is horrible, considering the pay servers are coming out with their own style of "classic servers".

It won't take much of this to cause a population migration, then all of their work and money spent on this project will be for naught.

And they should be happy if that happens. Because they sure are working hard to achieve it...

lol nothing has really changed for minstrels, they still run around with red pets.
amnesia change was needed to stop hib forcing fights.
style change is not out yet so nobody can say how that turns out.
stealth deduction to make it harder for stealth zergs, pretty much understandable.

you are a doom-merchant.... there are many ppl playing here, in fact population has gone up in the last weeks.

can i have your stuff?

Mon 11 May 2020 1:04 PM by imweasel

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 12:41 PM
imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 12:03 PM
I think this is signaling the beginning of the end of this server. At least for a healthy, populated one.

Amnesia changes. Minstrel changes. Style changes. Out of the blue stealth spec destruction.

Everyone is correct about "their right" to code this server as they like.

Just like everyone playing on it can just quit.

The timing is horrible, considering the pay servers are coming out with their own style of "classic servers".

It won't take much of this to cause a population migration, then all of their work and money spent on this project will be for naught.

And they should be happy if that happens. Because they sure are working hard to achieve it...

lol nothing has really changed for minstrels, they still run around with red pets.
amnesia change was needed to stop hib forcing fights.
style change is not out yet so nobody can say how that turns out.
stealth deduction to make it harder for stealth zergs, pretty much understandable.

you are a doom-merchant.... there are many ppl playing here, in fact population has gone up in the last weeks.

can i have your stuff?

No. What makes you think that I'm wrong? It's been a year and now they decide to make sweeping changes? Not just to a single class or two, but an entire spec line? After a year? I think you see to many rainbows...

Mon 11 May 2020 1:09 PM by dbeattie71

imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 12:03 PM
I think this is signaling the beginning of the end of this server. At least for a healthy, populated one.

Amnesia changes. Minstrel changes. Style changes. Out of the blue stealth spec destruction.

Everyone is correct about "their right" to code this server as they like.

Just like everyone playing on it can just quit.

The timing is horrible, considering the pay servers are coming out with their own style of "classic servers".

It won't take much of this to cause a population migration, then all of their work and money spent on this project will be for naught.

And they should be happy if that happens. Because they sure are working hard to achieve it...

Lol.

Mon 11 May 2020 1:22 PM by inoeth

imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 1:04 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 12:41 PM
imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 12:03 PM
I think this is signaling the beginning of the end of this server. At least for a healthy, populated one.

Amnesia changes. Minstrel changes. Style changes. Out of the blue stealth spec destruction.

Everyone is correct about "their right" to code this server as they like.

Just like everyone playing on it can just quit.

The timing is horrible, considering the pay servers are coming out with their own style of "classic servers".

It won't take much of this to cause a population migration, then all of their work and money spent on this project will be for naught.

And they should be happy if that happens. Because they sure are working hard to achieve it...

lol nothing has really changed for minstrels, they still run around with red pets.
amnesia change was needed to stop hib forcing fights.
style change is not out yet so nobody can say how that turns out.
stealth deduction to make it harder for stealth zergs, pretty much understandable.

you are a doom-merchant.... there are many ppl playing here, in fact population has gone up in the last weeks.

can i have your stuff?

No. What makes you think that I'm wrong? It's been a year and now they decide to make sweeping changes? Not just to a single class or two, but an entire spec line? After a year? I think you see to many rainbows...

not sure what you are talking about now

Mon 11 May 2020 1:27 PM by gotwqqd

imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 12:03 PM
I think this is signaling the beginning of the end of this server. At least for a healthy, populated one.

Amnesia changes. Minstrel changes. Style changes. Out of the blue stealth spec destruction.

Everyone is correct about "their right" to code this server as they like.

Just like everyone playing on it can just quit.

The timing is horrible, considering the pay servers are coming out with their own style of "classic servers".

It won't take much of this to cause a population migration, then all of their work and money spent on this project will be for naught.

And they should be happy if that happens. Because they sure are working hard to achieve it...

Changes that we’re going to be class destroyers
Yet they pretty much are going about business as usual

Mon 11 May 2020 2:21 PM by imweasel

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 1:22 PM
imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 1:04 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 12:41 PM
lol nothing has really changed for minstrels, they still run around with red pets.
amnesia change was needed to stop hib forcing fights.
style change is not out yet so nobody can say how that turns out.
stealth deduction to make it harder for stealth zergs, pretty much understandable.

you are a doom-merchant.... there are many ppl playing here, in fact population has gone up in the last weeks.

can i have your stuff?

No. What makes you think that I'm wrong? It's been a year and now they decide to make sweeping changes? Not just to a single class or two, but an entire spec line? After a year? I think you see to many rainbows...

not sure what you are talking about now

If you don't understand what I'm saying, I can't help you. Best just to agree to disagree.

Mon 11 May 2020 3:36 PM by codybonesjones

It is not a nuisance, stealthers are literally just trying to stay alive since no visi runs solo. This change only makes it easier for visis to kill stealth and is only catering to the visi players who constantly cry about getting killed by stealthers. If you are going to limit a stealthers means of survival since we don't have a healer in a group then where are the limitations set on visi groups. The change is bullshit

Mon 11 May 2020 3:41 PM by codybonesjones

They are stealthers for a reason and running a group of stealthers because noone wants to group with stealthers so how is it fair to penalize them and give visis a means to kill them even easier. Especially when you can already get lucidity potions which i have had a 8 man pop just to hunt me, one lonely little stealther, and kill. Tell me how that seems fair.

Mon 11 May 2020 11:30 PM by gotwqqd

codybonesjones wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 3:41 PM
They are stealthers for a reason and running a group of stealthers because noone wants to group with stealthers so how is it fair to penalize them and give visis a means to kill them even easier. Especially when you can already get lucidity potions which i have had a 8 man pop just to hunt me, one lonely little stealther, and kill. Tell me how that seems fair.

It’s as fair as having to walk unaware into a group of five stealth.

Adjust and space apart....social distancing.

Corona virus affects everyone.

Tue 12 May 2020 6:46 AM by Sepplord

i get that stealthers are upset, but i don't get the complaints about how noone wants them in visi-groups
if there was any real intent on joining visi groups, why did you roll a stealther?
Seriously, claiming that you would want to run in visi groups, is just as unbelieveable as a statement as the people saying we stealthgroup to fight other visi-smallmen

Personally i have been running with visi 4man-groups almost exclusively. Sometimes we are 3 and sometimes 5. Once we even were 6. It is possible and you can avoid getting ran over by 8mans, and since we are a bit higher RR even the good 8mans have to burn CDs so they don't lose members from time to time.
I can understand where someones complaints are coming from who solos a lot, and duos or trios when a RL friend that rarely plays is online. But plenty of stealthers are ALWAYS grouped in a 4+ stealthgroup and at that point you could simply run a visible smallmen and be MUCH stronger.

PS: the change also didn't come out of the blue, when they announced the long list of planned changes for the first time "group stealth changes" were on the list, just without details. Imo the first iteration of it went to far, but they have adjusted very fast

Tue 19 May 2020 6:08 PM by SlowMo

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 May 2020 6:46 AM
PS: the change also didn't come out of the blue, when they announced the long list of planned changes for the first time "group stealth changes" were on the list, just without details. Imo the first iteration of it went to far, but they have adjusted very fast

If this was the intention, I honestly have to say that the change didn´t accomplish this goal. From what I see there are the same amount of stealth groups out there.
Stealth groups give a shit about the change, because they have the numbers anyway... is even worse now since the bow damage was adjusted. So who suffers from this the most? Solo stealthers... yes we are out there believe it or not...

And now? Are there numbers any dev can provide which show the evolution of stealth groups pre and post change?

Can we get specifics on the change?

Or we just pretend everything is ok now?