Are devs looking for radar users ? What is being done about it ?

Started 17 Dec 2019
by Shadanwolf
in Support Center
I have a 47 stealther...in middle of forest...not moving and stealthed. 2x the same enemy minstrel found me. Question is....do the developers of the game take this practice seriously and what are they doing to actively reduce and punish the users. YES.....I have appealed the suspected user.
Tue 17 Dec 2019 6:21 PM by keen
If you were stealthed they can not see you with radar tools.
Tue 17 Dec 2019 6:31 PM by Shadanwolf
When you fight you are not stealthed. Same person showed up 2x shortly(less than 2 minutes) after I reached xp spot.1x before my first fight.
How do you know whether radar works on stealthed...or not ?
Tue 17 Dec 2019 6:50 PM by Azrael
You said you were stealthed, now you are saying you were fighting... ok let me ignore this.
This minstrel was obviously checking around xp spots so no wonder he found you. I am really confused that you do not see that, or was it a xp spot where really really nobody else goes never ever?

Regarding this stealth radar. I did not see it by myself but whenever i read a discussion about it, it was consent that it does not work if you are stealth. (do not know about technically reason)

edit: ofc, it is possible that some people (in this case minstrel) are using radar but from sparse informatiion you give it sounds like a regular farming xp spot loop. In this case all you can do is appeal what you already did. So let gm check this.
Tue 17 Dec 2019 10:27 PM by chewchew
Shadanwolf wrote:
Tue 17 Dec 2019 6:31 PM
How do you know whether radar works on stealthed...or not ?
Very good question. This keen guy looks just like a radar user tbh
Wed 18 Dec 2019 12:56 PM by Sepplord
chewchew wrote:
Tue 17 Dec 2019 10:27 PM
Shadanwolf wrote:
Tue 17 Dec 2019 6:31 PM
How do you know whether radar works on stealthed...or not ?
Very good question. This keen guy looks just like a radar user tbh

I guess what i am about to say will make me a radar user too, despite it being common knowledge and already mentioned in this thread:

In every single radar discussion in any daoc forum people claim that stealthed people are not shown on radar (afaik because their client information isn't sent out...but someone else can probably better explain).

Accusing someone who simply mentioned that about radaring just shows how easily you jump to conclusions without having any evidence.
Wed 18 Dec 2019 1:22 PM by Razur Ur
keen wrote:
Tue 17 Dec 2019 6:21 PM
If you were stealthed they can not see you with radar tools.

Where are you knowing this how a work´s radar tools? we can thinking you use this tools with your knowledge :-D
Wed 18 Dec 2019 2:39 PM by Sepplord
is this some kind of circlejerk that's going over my head or is today just moronday?
Thu 19 Dec 2019 7:23 PM by Shadanwolf
Nope...it's ..."radar doesn't exist because you cannot prove it does exist and was used" logic. Very interesting that so many jump to deny the existence and use of radar and it's usage.
Thu 19 Dec 2019 11:01 PM by Sepplord
Shadanwolf wrote:
Thu 19 Dec 2019 7:23 PM
Nope...it's ..."radar doesn't exist because you cannot prove it does exist and was used" logic. Very interesting that so many jump to deny the existence and use of radar and it's usage.

show me where anyone claimed radar doesn't exist, or that it isn't used?
the absolute opposite is the case, you are just making things up

If you believe that somehow increases your credibility regarding someone using radar then just keep going, at least that makes it easy to spot which claims not to take seriously
Thu 19 Dec 2019 11:11 PM by chewchew
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 18 Dec 2019 12:56 PM
I guess what i am about to say will make me a radar user too, despite it being common knowledge and already mentioned in this thread:
Common knowledge amongst radar-users, yes.
Sepplord, could you please stop defending radar-usage!?
Fri 20 Dec 2019 3:27 AM by gruenesschaf
Any radar reports from stealthers that were found while stealthed the entire time are ignored as the player data just isn't sent until the stealther is in detection range. Once the data is sent the client will render it, in case of players / mobs with stealth on it's the shadowy silhouette model. That means unless you see these shadowy silhouettes much much further than you should see them, no radar would be able to see them either as the data just isn't sent.

To make it a bit clearer, the daoc client is basically a thin / dumb client for most things including rendering of npcs or players. When it receives npc / player data it renders it (for completeness sake exceptions might be lowering the view distance in the options or maybe occlusion culling but neither really matter here). The client knows about a stealth flag on npcs and players, when it's set the model is changed to the silhouette and that's all the client does / knows about stealth. The client has nothing at all to do with at what distance to show this silhouette which you can even see as we have some mobs that are supposed to have stealth but since we haven't yet come around to implementing it some mobs just permanently have a stealth flag set which means you see their silhouettes at max render distance and even when they attack as the flag is never unset.
Fri 20 Dec 2019 9:54 AM by Nunki
Shadanwolf wrote:
Tue 17 Dec 2019 5:02 PM
I have a 47 stealther...in middle of forest...not moving and stealthed. 2x the same enemy minstrel found me. Question is....do the developers of the game take this practice seriously and what are they doing to actively reduce and punish the users. YES.....I have appealed the suspected user.

Summarized:
Yes, radar users exist.
Yes, gms react on appeals, check them and ban players if the usage of radar tools is somehow verified.

As gruenesschaf explained, radar users can not see stealthed players.

BUT and that is how I understood your situation, while you fight you are visible for radar users, therefore even if you stealth afterwards the Minstrel can run to the last location you popped up and search for you. It is difficult to proof that those Minstrel wasn't simply checking all xp spots and typical locations people fight at.

This is the reason, not explicitly radar users but any possible stealthed enemy around, why I change spots on a regular basis, sometimes after every fight.
Fri 20 Dec 2019 6:32 PM by Cadebrennus
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 20 Dec 2019 3:27 AM
Any radar reports from stealthers that were found while stealthed the entire time are ignored as the player data just isn't sent until the stealther is in detection range. Once the data is sent the client will render it, in case of players / mobs with stealth on it's the shadowy silhouette model. That means unless you see these shadowy silhouettes much much further than you should see them, no radar would be able to see them either as the data just isn't sent.

To make it a bit clearer, the daoc client is basically a thin / dumb client for most things including rendering of npcs or players. When it receives npc / player data it renders it (for completeness sake exceptions might be lowering the view distance in the options or maybe occlusion culling but neither really matter here). The client knows about a stealth flag on npcs and players, when it's set the model is changed to the silhouette and that's all the client does / knows about stealth. The client has nothing at all to do with at what distance to show this silhouette which you can even see as we have some mobs that are supposed to have stealth but since we haven't yet come around to implementing it some mobs just permanently have a stealth flag set which means you see their silhouettes at max render distance and even when they attack as the flag is never unset.

Stealthers are the best radar-user detectors in game, and have been since radar first appeared in game. Smart stealthers regularly "blip" out and back into stealth to check player behaviour. Devs on Live have been regularly ignoring these reports since the very first report. Are you guys also still ignoring these reports? So far your answers have leaned towards "yes" which is one of the very many reasons why myself and many other positive contributors to the community haven't returned.
Fri 20 Dec 2019 10:12 PM by gotwqqd
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 20 Dec 2019 6:32 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 20 Dec 2019 3:27 AM
Any radar reports from stealthers that were found while stealthed the entire time are ignored as the player data just isn't sent until the stealther is in detection range. Once the data is sent the client will render it, in case of players / mobs with stealth on it's the shadowy silhouette model. That means unless you see these shadowy silhouettes much much further than you should see them, no radar would be able to see them either as the data just isn't sent.

To make it a bit clearer, the daoc client is basically a thin / dumb client for most things including rendering of npcs or players. When it receives npc / player data it renders it (for completeness sake exceptions might be lowering the view distance in the options or maybe occlusion culling but neither really matter here). The client knows about a stealth flag on npcs and players, when it's set the model is changed to the silhouette and that's all the client does / knows about stealth. The client has nothing at all to do with at what distance to show this silhouette which you can even see as we have some mobs that are supposed to have stealth but since we haven't yet come around to implementing it some mobs just permanently have a stealth flag set which means you see their silhouettes at max render distance and even when they attack as the flag is never unset.

Stealthers are the best radar-user detectors in game, and have been since radar first appeared in game. Smart stealthers regularly "blip" out and back into stealth to check player behaviour. Devs on Live have been regularly ignoring these reports since the very first report. Are you guys also still ignoring these reports? So far your answers have leaned towards "yes" which is one of the very many reasons why myself and many other positive contributors to the community haven't returned.
The best radar detection is a stealthed WITH radar.
Sat 21 Dec 2019 11:29 AM by Sepplord
Are you all already drunk because of the holidays?


Read grünes Statement again, he clearly specifies which Reports are ignored and your comnents are conpletely irrelevant.

I guess he also must be a radaruser because of how much he knows about how radar works. 🙄

chewchew wrote:
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 18 Dec 2019 12:56 PM
I guess what i am about to say will make me a radar user too, despite it being common knowledge and already mentioned in this thread:
Common knowledge amongst radar-users, yes.
Sepplord, could you please stop defending radar-usage!?

I can't fly a helicopter but i still know how one works. I bet you know how rape works, but you probably don't call yourself a rapist do you?

And please show me where i defended radaruse. Oh wait, you just made that up.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 4:53 AM by Hawkaye
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 20 Dec 2019 3:27 AM
Any radar reports from stealthers that were found while stealthed the entire time are ignored as the player data just isn't sent until the stealther is in detection range. Once the data is sent the client will render it, in case of players / mobs with stealth on it's the shadowy silhouette model. That means unless you see these shadowy silhouettes much much further than you should see them, no radar would be able to see them either as the data just isn't sent.

To make it a bit clearer, the daoc client is basically a thin / dumb client for most things including rendering of npcs or players. When it receives npc / player data it renders it (for completeness sake exceptions might be lowering the view distance in the options or maybe occlusion culling but neither really matter here). The client knows about a stealth flag on npcs and players, when it's set the model is changed to the silhouette and that's all the client does / knows about stealth. The client has nothing at all to do with at what distance to show this silhouette which you can even see as we have some mobs that are supposed to have stealth but since we haven't yet come around to implementing it some mobs just permanently have a stealth flag set which means you see their silhouettes at max render distance and even when they attack as the flag is never unset.
you people keep claiming this same patently false info if as you say " the player data just isn't sent until the stealther is in detection range" how then is your dot showing on map while stealthed ? clearly the server is keeping track of your current location and displaying it on your map. What's to stop some one else from intercepting this same data to get your location ?
Sat 28 Dec 2019 6:49 AM by gruenesschaf
Hawkaye wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 4:53 AM
you people keep claiming this same patently false info if as you say " the player data just isn't sent until the stealther is in detection range" how then is your dot showing on map while stealthed ? clearly the server is keeping track of your current location and displaying it on your map. What's to stop some one else from intercepting this same data to get your location ?

What a world it would be if there were a different packet, say for example a group member info packet that is only sent to group members, it could contain things like group member effects for the group window or even the location of said group member to show them on the map and only this map (in case you haven't noticed the map dot may or may not lag behind quite a bit as it is only sent sporadically).

But to answer what would stop anyone from intercepting this particular packet, well it's not sent to anyone but group members, however, if a group member were to use a radar that reacts to these specific packets then nothing would stop them from intercepting / reacting to these packets and it could show you the rough location of your group members regardless of their stealth status, just like the ingame map.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:26 AM by Pao
Can't you create invisible player like signals that roam the map. Radar becomes useless if it shows to much fake things all the time.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:34 AM by gruenesschaf
Pao wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:26 AM
Can't you create invisible player like signals that roam the map. Radar becomes useless if it shows to much fake things all the time.

As I said above, anything sent to the client is rendered by the client which means trying to trick radar by fake people running around would mean actual players would see these fake players as well. Couple that with the client behavior of moving everything to the ground and you can't even fake people high up in the air / underground.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:49 AM by Cadebrennus
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:34 AM
Pao wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:26 AM
Can't you create invisible player like signals that roam the map. Radar becomes useless if it shows to much fake things all the time.

As I said above, anything sent to the client is rendered by the client which means trying to trick radar by fake people running around would mean actual players would see these fake players as well. Couple that with the client behavior of moving everything to the ground and you can't even fake people high up in the air / underground.

Why not do it though? The short time they actually gave a shit about catching radar users on Live the devs used to put fake players inside of trees, rocks, etc. They did this only when someone was suspected of using radar and then actively watched their behaviour until they caught them chasing the ghosts they placed. If you guys are so diligent about catching macro PvE'ers why not be as diligent about catching radar users? I've never been affected by a macro PvE'er myself in either version of DAOC (with the exception of Uthgard2), but I damn sure have been affected by a radar user.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:50 AM by Cadebrennus
Hawkaye wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 4:53 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 20 Dec 2019 3:27 AM
Any radar reports from stealthers that were found while stealthed the entire time are ignored as the player data just isn't sent until the stealther is in detection range. Once the data is sent the client will render it, in case of players / mobs with stealth on it's the shadowy silhouette model. That means unless you see these shadowy silhouettes much much further than you should see them, no radar would be able to see them either as the data just isn't sent.

To make it a bit clearer, the daoc client is basically a thin / dumb client for most things including rendering of npcs or players. When it receives npc / player data it renders it (for completeness sake exceptions might be lowering the view distance in the options or maybe occlusion culling but neither really matter here). The client knows about a stealth flag on npcs and players, when it's set the model is changed to the silhouette and that's all the client does / knows about stealth. The client has nothing at all to do with at what distance to show this silhouette which you can even see as we have some mobs that are supposed to have stealth but since we haven't yet come around to implementing it some mobs just permanently have a stealth flag set which means you see their silhouettes at max render distance and even when they attack as the flag is never unset.
you people keep claiming this same patently false info if as you say " the player data just isn't sent until the stealther is in detection range" how then is your dot showing on map while stealthed ? clearly the server is keeping track of your current location and displaying it on your map. What's to stop some one else from intercepting this same data to get your location ?

Maybe that's client side only. You'll have to check with Gruen on that one.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:42 AM by Bicstor
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:49 AM
Why not do it though? The short time they actually gave a shit about catching radar users on Live the devs used to put fake players inside of trees, rocks, etc. They did this only when someone was suspected of using radar and then actively watched their behaviour until they caught them chasing the ghosts they placed. If you guys are so diligent about catching macro PvE'ers why not be as diligent about catching radar users? I've never been affected by a macro PvE'er myself in either version of DAOC (with the exception of Uthgard2), but I damn sure have been affected by a radar user.

Most pve afk/macro users will be caught because they are reported by another player. The healer who forgets to turn off their repeating celerity macro or leaves it running on purpose when they go afk while group continues pulling, or the paladin stood auto twisting in relic town and so on
Sat 28 Dec 2019 10:33 AM by Cadebrennus
Bicstor wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 9:42 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:49 AM
Why not do it though? The short time they actually gave a shit about catching radar users on Live the devs used to put fake players inside of trees, rocks, etc. They did this only when someone was suspected of using radar and then actively watched their behaviour until they caught them chasing the ghosts they placed. If you guys are so diligent about catching macro PvE'ers why not be as diligent about catching radar users? I've never been affected by a macro PvE'er myself in either version of DAOC (with the exception of Uthgard2), but I damn sure have been affected by a radar user.

Most pve afk/macro users will be caught because they are reported by another player. The healer who forgets to turn off their repeating celerity macro or leaves it running on purpose when they go afk while group continues pulling, or the paladin stood auto twisting in relic town and so on

Radar users are also reported by players. However on Live (for example) the devs required video evidence etc. and yet nothing was done with the aforementioned exception.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 10:59 AM by Wolfir666
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:49 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:34 AM
Pao wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:26 AM
Can't you create invisible player like signals that roam the map. Radar becomes useless if it shows to much fake things all the time.

As I said above, anything sent to the client is rendered by the client which means trying to trick radar by fake people running around would mean actual players would see these fake players as well. Couple that with the client behavior of moving everything to the ground and you can't even fake people high up in the air / underground.

Why not do it though? The short time they actually gave a shit about catching radar users on Live the devs used to put fake players inside of trees, rocks, etc. They did this only when someone was suspected of using radar and then actively watched their behaviour until they caught them chasing the ghosts they placed. If you guys are so diligent about catching macro PvE'ers why not be as diligent about catching radar users? I've never been affected by a macro PvE'er myself in either version of DAOC (with the exception of Uthgard2), but I damn sure have been affected by a radar user.

Actually very true.
Also i wonder if the fake-players have to look like players even, i mean, you could just make them into NPCs (or very tiny friendly mobs, like a grey lvl 1 frog that just can't be attacked for example) roaming around and everybody that sees them will know "oh, thats the radar-protection-bots", but those using radar won't know until being close enough on actually seeing them.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 11:08 AM by Pao
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:34 AM
Pao wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:26 AM
Can't you create invisible player like signals that roam the map. Radar becomes useless if it shows to much fake things all the time.

As I said above, anything sent to the client is rendered by the client which means trying to trick radar by fake people running around would mean actual players would see these fake players as well. Couple that with the client behavior of moving everything to the ground and you can't even fake people high up in the air / underground.

Then make them visible but roaming under the map or in trees/rocks/underwater etc. If radar user have to process a lot of information it losses the use of radar completely.
Sat 28 Dec 2019 1:46 PM by Cadebrennus
Pao wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 11:08 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:34 AM
Pao wrote:
Sat 28 Dec 2019 8:26 AM
Can't you create invisible player like signals that roam the map. Radar becomes useless if it shows to much fake things all the time.

As I said above, anything sent to the client is rendered by the client which means trying to trick radar by fake people running around would mean actual players would see these fake players as well. Couple that with the client behavior of moving everything to the ground and you can't even fake people high up in the air / underground.

Then make them visible but roaming under the map or in trees/rocks/underwater etc. If radar user have to process a lot of information it losses the use of radar completely.

That would slow all of us down because all of that data is sent to us, we just can't see it. As far as I know, radar intercepts and decrypts that data in an overlay or something. I've never used it and I'm no tech expert, so maybe someone else can chime in here.
Sat 11 Jan 2020 12:45 AM by sylvynyr
This below is from the person (at least partially) responsible for the first radar hacks of DAOC way way back pre-2004... apparently the FAQ is still available.


How far can <radar> see'?
The maximum range the server sends positon updates for mobiles and players is around 6000 Imperial Dark Age Length Units (IDALU). This is the distance represented by the default largest gray range circle. For comparison, a "zone" is 65,536 IDALU in each direction. This means that you can 'see' about 2.7% of a zone at any time. The Dark Age client will show you anything within 3300 IDALU (adjusted upward by the height of the object), in about an 80 degree Field of View while in first person mode.

Can <radar> see stealthed players?
<radar> can not see stealthed players that you could not see normally in their ghosted state. No radar hack can. The server only sends data on stealth players to the client if the stealther fails his pulsing stealth check and goes into ghosted mode. There are occasions when an NPC might cause a failure of the stealth pulse though. Also, sometimes you'll get a message saying "Player X is stealthed" when player X hasn't been announced. This is called an "Anonymous Stealther" and indicates someone is stealthed near (~1000 IDALU) you but you can't see them.


Also...


As of DAoC client version 1.68c, Mythic has changed their packet encryption process which breaks <radar>. After two and a half years, they are finally taking steps to secure the game world for their customers. The new process is much more secure, using RSA to exchange a symmetric key as well as swapping out their symmetric algorithm for a new one. This essentially protects the conversation from external sniffers and is a giant leap forward from an otherwise reticent Mythic Entertainment.
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