What does the future for Friar's look like to the Devs?

Started 3 Jun 2019
by niromu
in Albion
I'm curious what the long term goal is for Friars on this server. Is this the final product or can we anticipate some more balancing in the future?
Mon 3 Jun 2019 3:25 PM by Bumbles
Friar is a dead class. The Devs have shown they have zero no skill in the “balance” department. Just hope they see don’t screw them up anymore...
Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:37 AM by REVOLTE
so how would you two make friars "balanced"?
what would the optimal final produce look like for you?

asking, cuz i played friar on uth (flawed af.) and found it to be very enjoyable still.
Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:01 AM by Hejjin
Bumbles wrote:
Mon 3 Jun 2019 3:25 PM
Friar is a dead class. The Devs have shown they have zero no skill in the “balance” department. Just hope they see don’t screw them up anymore...
That simply is not accurate, Friars are still viable. There has been a significant decrease in Friar numbers, we are now back to where we were before people jumped on to them as a FoTM class.
Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:24 AM by Sepplord
friars are a huge PITA to deal with in smallmen, imo they are over the top in that department

they would need to be completely OP in groups to lose their "friars suck" stigma though...simply being balanced will not be enough for people to accept a new meta
Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:25 AM by Blitze
Don’t think friars were ever FoTM as they never got high up the LWRPs charts or were ever in the top ten most played classes...

If by FoTM you mean that you saw a few more than the usual 2 (gluttons for punishment visi-soloers) in the frontiers, the maybe.

Some of the many ideas for improving friar:

Make self endurance redux a group spell
Make end regen chant a grp chant
Male self absorb a group spell
Make self haste a group spell
Make self buffs castable while moving
Make HoT combat castable
Remove reflex attack and give friars there RR5 pbaoe disarm (or AoTG)
Change lvl 50 staff style to anything useful
Change lvl 44 staff style to be second in chain (not third)
Give 1.8 specc points
Make a parry guard (like shield guard)

& there are so many more options
Tue 4 Jun 2019 10:10 AM by Lollie
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:24 AM
they would need to be completely OP in groups to lose their "friars suck" stigma though...simply being balanced will not be enough for people to accept a new meta

Pretty much this.
I've always found friars to be a well rounded class but it's peoples attitudes to how a group should look that needs changing.
Tue 4 Jun 2019 10:24 AM by Hejjin
Blitze wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:25 AM
Don’t think friars were ever FoTM as they never got high up the LWRPs charts or were ever in the top ten most played classes...

If by FoTM you mean that you saw a few more than the usual 2 (gluttons for punishment visi-soloers) the frontiers, the maybe.
Friar numbers just about doubled in the month after Sayuki posted that video of his Friar beating 4 incredibly poorly played assassins, so that is why I refer to them as FoTM, though as you rightly state, despite the influx of RA Friars it led to no noticeable change in the 48H or weekly Herald stats for either RP or solo kills for Friars. I pointed that out multiple times in the various RA threads, but why let facts get in the way of opinion/perception bias? Some people were convinced that Friars were OP soloing beasts and so just conveniently ignored the Herald. As for Friar numbers, I pointed out in another thread that even at the height of Friar numbers their numbers were usually less than the assassins in any 1 realm.

Now the number of Friars is dropping I will have to start playing Dhavon more, as IMHO, they are still a fun and viable class to play.

Blitze wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:25 AM
Some of ideas for improving friar:

1.Make self endurance redux a group spell
Make end regen chant a grp chant
2. Male self absorb a group spell
Make self haste a group spell
Make self buffs castable while moving
Make HoT combat castable
Remove reflex attack and give friars there RR5 pbaoe disarm (or AoTG)
Change lvl 50 staff style to anything useful
Change lvl 44 staff style to be second in chain (not third)
Give 1.8 specc points
Make a parry guard (like shield guard)

& there are so many more options
I have highlighted the ones from your list that I believe are viable. My position on spec points has not changed from a few weeks after launch, I honestly do not believe that we need more points, we just need some adjustments. For items 1 and 2 I believe it should ONLY be the 42 and 44 spec versions of the spell that are group.
Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:01 AM by Sepplord
Hejjin wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 10:24 AM
[...]

Also in those other threads you have gotten many explanations why RP-numbers <-> strength correlation is not a hard fact, yet you continue to bash everyone that disagrees with your opinion as biased people that don't want to look at facts.

I will only repeat 2 arguments that you conveniently forget during your self rightneous comment, if you are intrested in more you can go back to those other threads you mentioned and read the reactions.

-a slow killing class roaming the speedway between AMG and APK won't see an increase in solo kills

-a class that is a hard target roaming the speedway between AMG and APK will not get attacked much. Quite the contrary, the stronger they are on average (increased because more using RA) the less they will get attacked. And the more of them roaming an already crowded speedway further decreases their RP gains

Short anecdote to show what kind of players/people jumped onto the fotm-train:
I watched two friars patrol back and forth for almost two hours, while i was doing stuff in my house...i saw them a lot, despite not watching the monitor very often. And they both had really low RP/hr (afaik something around 5-6k).
A bit later i came by the PC and saw that i had been randomly found by someone and killed. These two guys were not in combat log, yet they were standing around my body emoting and teabagging me (and my release bar was already a bit filled, so i had not just recently died).

I am not mad about that btw. before someone tries to use that against me. I am just telling the story to show that a special kind of people joined the friar-fotm-train just to spite stealthers. They don't care about RPs and their playstyle won't show up on herald. These players are gone now again
Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:37 AM by Hejjin
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:01 AM
Also in those other threads you have gotten many explanations why RP-numbers <-> strength correlation is not a hard fact, yet you continue to bash everyone that disagrees with your opinion as biased people that don't want to look at facts.

I will only repeat 2 arguments that you conveniently forget during your self rightneous comment, if you are intrested in more you can go back to those other threads you mentioned and read the reactions.
snip...
There have been opinions given as to why the Herald should be ignored, I stated in those other threads I did not agree with those points, so no, I did not conveniently forget them. Patrolling between APK and AMG is not the best strategy for someone looking to solo. My point about solo kills was down to people repeatedly stating that Friars were an OP solo class, nothing in the Herald backed up that claim. Other visible melee/hybrid classes without movement speed performed better in the Herald rankings and yet that was conveniently ignored.

Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:01 AM
Short anecdote to show what kind of players/people jumped onto the fotm-train:
I watched two friars patrol back and forth for almost two hours, while i was doing stuff in my house...i saw them a lot, despite not watching the monitor very often. And they both had really low RP/hr (afaik something around 5-6k).
A bit later i came by the PC and saw that i had been randomly found by someone and killed. These two guys were not in combat log, yet they were standing around my body emoting and teabagging me (and my release bar was already a bit filled, so i had not just recently died).

I am not mad about that btw. before someone tries to use that against me. I am just telling the story to show that a special kind of people joined the friar-fotm-train just to spite stealthers. They don't care about RPs and their playstyle won't show up on herald. These players are gone now again[/i]
Interesting anecdote, I have been /rude and /slap and /dismissed by assassins when playing various toons, I don't judge all assassins by that handful of players...
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:00 PM by Sepplord
Hejjin wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:37 AM
There have been opinions given as to why the Herald should be ignored, I stated in those other threads I did not agree with those points, so no, I did not conveniently forget them

Your previous comment implied pretty heaily that there are no counterarguments and that people rather chose to ignore the "facts" that can be seen in the herald.
Thanks for confirming that you didn't forget but intentionally misrepresented the situation

Hejjin wrote: I don't judge all assassins by that handful of players...
Neither do i...why do feel the need to try and discredit me by implying that i did?

The anecdote was to show you why a bunch of FOTM-bandwagoners don't show up as top-RP earners in the herald. I believe it did show that quite well. And apparently you think that too, at least that's the most logical explanation why you would try to distract from the point i was making and instead attack me with passive aggression
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:24 PM by Hejjin
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:00 PM
Your previous comment implied pretty heaily that there are no counterarguments and that people rather chose to ignore the "facts" that can be seen in the herald.
Thanks for confirming that you didn't forget but intentionally misrepresented the situation
Intentional misrepresentation was calling Friars OP as soloers. I could point to multiple threads about different classes where the response is along the line of 'ignore the Herald' because it does not reflect their opinion.

Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:00 PM
Neither do i...why do feel the need to try and discredit me by implying that i did?
The anecdote was to show you why a bunch of FOTM-bandwagoners don't show up as top-RP earners in the herald. I believe it did show that quite well. And apparently you think that too, at least that's the most logical explanation why you would try to distract from the point i was making and instead attack me with passive aggression
Actually no, I mostly ignored the anecdote because of the following :

Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:01 AM
I am not mad about that btw. before someone tries to use that against me. I am just telling the story to show that a special kind of people joined the friar-fotm-train
That was your quote, I pointed out similar behaviour I have encountered in Assassins.

As for your anecdote, Friar numbers almost doubled when they became popular, and yet you are referring to a very small percentage of those new Friars that were mostly running between APK and AMG, what about the rest of them?
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:44 PM by Sepplord
Hejjin wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:24 PM
As for your anecdote, Friar numbers almost doubled when they became popular, and yet you are referring to a very small percentage of those new Friars that were mostly running between APK and AMG, what about the rest of them?

I didn't see more friars than usual in other areas. Only between AMG<->APK was the frequency increased by a lot.
I never made a claim about the %-population of fotm-friars to normal-friars. Neither did i only adress a small subset of fotm-friars.


I don't want to have a new discussion about RA and who joined for OPness and who didn't. It won't lead anywhere. The reason i commented was because i felt like you were misrepresenting the situation. So to get back on track:
Herald was not ignored, it was dismissed as meaningless because of several reasons you personally disagree with.
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:49 PM by dbeattie71
REVOLTE wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:37 AM
so how would you two make friars "balanced"?
what would the optimal final produce look like for you?

asking, cuz i played friar on uth (flawed af.) and found it to be very enjoyable still.

They want to be able to kill people while afk. That = balanced. 😂
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:54 PM by Hejjin
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:44 PM
I didn't see more friars than usual in other areas. Only between AMG<->APK was the frequency increased by a lot.
I never made a claim about the %-population of fotm-friars to normal-friars. Neither did i only adress a small subset of fotm-friars.
Strange, I noticed a lot of new Friars out in the frontiers with only a small portion of the being between APk and AMG.

Sepplord wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:44 PM
I don't want to have a new discussion about RA and who joined for OPness and who didn't. It won't lead anywhere. The reason i commented was because i felt like you were misrepresenting the situation. So to get back on track:
Herald was not ignored, it was dismissed as meaningless because of several reasons you personally disagree with.
Alternatively it was dismissed as meaningless because it did not reflect the claims that were made...

Anyway enough is enough, we are just going round in circles. As stated in my first post in this thread I still believe that Friars are viable.

Edit : I believe Solo Staff/Enhance friars are viable, but I still believe that those that group need a little help.
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:57 PM by Hejjin
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:49 PM
They want to be able to kill people while afk. That = balanced. 😂
A perfect example of misrepresentation.
Tue 4 Jun 2019 1:51 PM by Sepplord
Hejjin wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:57 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:49 PM
They want to be able to kill people while afk. That = balanced. 😂
A perfect example of misrepresentation.

yeah, it happens on "both sides" of the discussion. And it never helps.
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:39 PM by teiloh
Stats from PIE/STR/CON to PIE/DEX/CON
Group End Redux
Haste Timer Reduced to 1m, add minor self-speed buff in and out of combat
HOT Insta or Combat Castable

Style Style Review -
Figure Eight > Frontal
Double Strike > Crush DD (25 Delve)
Friar's Fury > Raise GR, remove bleed
Stunning Wrath > 2nd in Chain
Banish > After Parry
Excommunicate > After Banish, 1.1 GR
Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:05 AM by Hejjin
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:39 PM
Stats from PIE/STR/CON to PIE/DEX/CON
Group End Redux
Haste Timer Reduced to 1m, add minor self-speed buff in and out of combat
HOT Insta or Combat Castable

Style Style Review -
Figure Eight > Frontal
Double Strike > Crush DD (25 Delve)
Friar's Fury > Raise GR, remove bleed
Stunning Wrath > 2nd in Chain
Banish > After Parry
Excommunicate > After Banish, 1.1 GR
Oh boy, that would once again make Friars a FoTM class, given that they are committed to keeping buff pots, they should allow alchemy to make movement speed pots that are the equivalent of lvl 30ish spells / songs / chants. Then all non-speed classes benefit.
Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:32 AM by teiloh
It'd be a short self buff tied to haste so they can move around and eke some time out when they're moving from peeling to support
Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:12 AM by REVOLTE
teiloh wrote:
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:39 PM
Stats from PIE/STR/CON to PIE/DEX/CON
Group End Redux
Haste Timer Reduced to 1m, add minor self-speed buff in and out of combat
HOT Insta or Combat Castable

Style Style Review -
Figure Eight > Frontal
Double Strike > Crush DD (25 Delve)
Friar's Fury > Raise GR, remove bleed
Stunning Wrath > 2nd in Chain
Banish > After Parry
Excommunicate > After Banish, 1.1 GR

why not give them some instant boltrange 2xx delve nuke on top?
Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:39 AM by Hejjin
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:32 AM
It'd be a short self buff tied to haste so they can move around and eke some time out when they're moving from peeling to support
Given that you also want to reduce the reuse time of haste, that would result in Friars having superior in combat movement speed than classes with Charge, and would allow solo Friars to cycle through haste / movement speed when out of combat...I would much rather the dev's upgraded charge for those classes that have it and added speed pots than them giving us a movement speed buff.
Thu 6 Jun 2019 3:49 PM by teiloh
REVOLTE wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:12 AM
why not give them some instant boltrange 2xx delve nuke on top?

I know long lists of small changes can be overwhelming. Reading can be overwhelming. It's okay, you can calm down.
Thu 6 Jun 2019 3:51 PM by teiloh
Hejjin wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:39 AM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:32 AM
It'd be a short self buff tied to haste so they can move around and eke some time out when they're moving from peeling to support
Given that you also want to reduce the reuse time of haste, that would result in Friars having superior in combat movement speed than classes with Charge, and would allow solo Friars to cycle through haste / movement speed when out of combat...I would much rather the dev's upgraded charge for those classes that have it and added speed pots than them giving us a movement speed buff.

Charge is 74% movement speed. Something like 15-30% depending on level would be good.
Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:18 PM by Hejjin
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 3:51 PM
Hejjin wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:39 AM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:32 AM
It'd be a short self buff tied to haste so they can move around and eke some time out when they're moving from peeling to support
Given that you also want to reduce the reuse time of haste, that would result in Friars having superior in combat movement speed than classes with Charge, and would allow solo Friars to cycle through haste / movement speed when out of combat...I would much rather the dev's upgraded charge for those classes that have it and added speed pots than them giving us a movement speed buff.

Charge is 74% movement speed. Something like 15-30% depending on level would be good.
Are you referring to live or on here, I have no first hand knowledge of Charge, but I have seen Merc's / BM's complain about it. Your suggestion was to increase in and out of combat movement speed. Unless that figure is 174% that would actually be a decrease in movement speed...
Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:31 PM by teiloh
Hejjin wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:18 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 3:51 PM
Hejjin wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:39 AM
Given that you also want to reduce the reuse time of haste, that would result in Friars having superior in combat movement speed than classes with Charge, and would allow solo Friars to cycle through haste / movement speed when out of combat...I would much rather the dev's upgraded charge for those classes that have it and added speed pots than them giving us a movement speed buff.

Charge is 74% movement speed. Something like 15-30% depending on level would be good.
Are you referring to live or on here, I have no first hand knowledge of Charge, but I have seen Merc's / BM's complain about it. Your suggestion was to increase in and out of combat movement speed. Unless that figure is 174% that would actually be a decrease in movement speed...

+74%. And you're completely CC immune during the whole thing.
Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:52 PM by Pops999
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:31 PM
Hejjin wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:18 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 3:51 PM
Charge is 74% movement speed. Something like 15-30% depending on level would be good.
Are you referring to live or on here, I have no first hand knowledge of Charge, but I have seen Merc's / BM's complain about it. Your suggestion was to increase in and out of combat movement speed. Unless that figure is 174% that would actually be a decrease in movement speed...

+74%. And you're completely CC immune during the whole thing.
Charge only saves you end.
Thu 6 Jun 2019 6:20 PM by teiloh
He was asking about live.
Thu 6 Jun 2019 7:53 PM by Hejjin
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 6:20 PM
He was asking about live.

Actually I was asking about which version of charge you were referring to...
Thu 6 Jun 2019 7:54 PM by teiloh
Hejjin wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 7:53 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 6 Jun 2019 6:20 PM
He was asking about live.

Actually I was asking about which version of charge you were referring to...

Sorry, assumed you were talking about Live because you compared the suggestion to Charge which gives no speed increase here.
Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:09 PM by niromu
Did I post this is in the right spot? Haven't seen any Dev or Mod comment yet.

I'm interested to know if this is something they are actively investing time to look in to or if we are staying the way we are for the foreseeable. Answering that question will stop all conversations about Friars for a while.
Mon 10 Jun 2019 4:31 PM by Miiro
They probably wont answer since its a loaded question.

If they say yes you will ask what they are. You will either agree or disagree with them and more flame posts will happen regardless.

If they say no people will whine.

So its best for them not to answer this question and assume yes, they will work on friars continually. Is it their highest priority? No.
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