Swoop members banned for 1 day and reset of RPs

Grünesschaf reasoned:

Due to the small size of their guild and therefore very high ratio of confirmed third party tool users we are assuming that the other members were at least in the know and for that the entire remaining guild members of Swoop will be banned for 1 day and have the RP reset of their Midgard characters.

I am a lawyer IRL and it doesnt sit well with me using an assumption for a punishment. A reasoning built on an assumption would never hold water in a real court of law. The connection Grünesschaf uses for the punishment of all members is the guild membership and the small size of the guild.

Did all members play at the time the usage of the third party program was first detected? If not, how can Grünesschaaf prove that all members knew about the usage and were in cahoots? What if a member hasnt played for a long time and didnt know about the usage? What if a new member didnt know about it and now has his RPs reset? Can Grünesschaf prove beyond reasonable doubt that all members knew?

Sure, the Devs can do whatever suits them with their server. They can assume and act upon it. But the users can leave the server too, if they dont want that a dev one day decides to ban them or resets their RPs.

Edit: Having thought about that more, I dont want to be part of any project that acts upon assumptions, ie decides arbitrarily. Bye.

Edit2: Ich sehe gerade, dass die Anbieterkennzeichnung auf der Homepage fehlt, obwohl der Server in Deutschland steht. Werden die Anforderungen des TMG, RStV oder der DSGVO eingehalten (Geschäftsmäßigkeit ist weiter als Gewerbsmäßigkeit; Daten werden verarbeitet und gespeichert). Das allein ist shady AF.

Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:14 PM by Doiri

this isn't a legal case and you can't expect the devs of a private server to look through a potential myriad of chatlogs and whatnot to determine which guild members knew about the tools some of them used.

they ran as a small guild of which 3 members used third party tools and they all profited from that systematically, even those that might have not known about it. there is
a strong suspicion though that every rvr-active member knew about it, which will have to suffice to legitimate the measures taken.

this is a private server with limited resources, don't expect them to carry out an criminal investigation.

Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:25 PM by age0208

I agree, it sucks and seems unfair for some individuals. I'm going to make the assumption that many players have made multiple characters on multiple realms on multiple servers. Its not a big deal when you consider that. Cant be mad at those governing the server and dishing out a punishment. Members of Swoop who are caught in the crossfire should be mad at their fellow friends and guild mates for misleading them and causing them to be guilty by association. One of the worst and demoralizing things on these free shards has been when cheating becomes rampant because the GMs are not active in trying to eliminate cheating and even when players are banned they just make new accounts and do the same. Don't be mad at the GMs or Phoenix... this server is far better than Uthgard and i for one would have never thought i would be saying that. Pick your friends and guild mates carefully... specially if you know who they are and their past history...

Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:36 PM by t4coops

just rock you and laugh at the people who cheat when you beat them^^

Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:42 PM by Bumbles

Jodocus_Quak wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Apr 2019 6:46 PM
Grünesschaf reasoned:
Due to the small size of their guild and therefore very high ratio of confirmed third party tool users we are assuming that the other members were at least in the know and for that the entire remaining guild members of Swoop will be banned for 1 day and have the RP reset of their Midgard characters.

I am a lawyer IRL and it doesnt sit well with me using an assumption for a punishment. A reasoning built on an assumption would never hold water in a real court of law. The connection Grünesschaf uses for the punishment of all members is the guild membership and the small size of the guild.

Did all members play at the time the usage of the third party program was first detected? If not, how can Grünesschaaf prove that all members knew about the usage and were in cahoots? What if a member hasnt played for a long time and didnt know about the usage? What if a new member didnt know about it and now has his RPs reset? Can Grünesschaf prove beyond reasonable doubt that all members knew?

Sure, the Devs can do whatever suits them with their server. They can assume and act upon it. But the users can leave the server too, if they dont want that a dev one day decides to ban them or resets their RPs.

Edit: Having thought about that more, I dont want to be part of any project that acts upon assumptions, ie decides arbitrarily. Bye.

lawyer irl and a total dork also. Nerd.

Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:43 PM by Raec

Ban on uth 1 ,check
Ban on genesis, check
Ban on uth 2, dunno
Ban on phoenix, check

Next server just go for a preventive ban.

Fri 19 Apr 2019 9:04 PM by phixion

This is a private DAoC shard, the devs can run it how they please. This is not a court of law.

Staff obviously saw something dodgy going on, and it isn't too presumptuous for them to assume the members of this small guild were also complicit in it by knowing it was in use and not reporting it.

Out of interest, which of them were banned from previous shards?

Fri 19 Apr 2019 9:19 PM by Raec

Repugnance speed hack on genesis , lavetz ban aswell, mgda on uth 1 was either repugnance, lavetz or both

Fri 19 Apr 2019 9:24 PM by dbeattie71

Dev pwnage, yay.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:37 AM by Steviee

Two things I want to bring up:

1.) We had several people join the guild prior to the ban and have their RPs removed. I honestly feel bad for them more than anything. Especially since not a single person knew about the radar or who had it. We all got a one day ban and RPs wiped without having a clue, off an assumption that we knew?

2.) If this was a ban for radar or 3rd party program, there would be more people banned than one guild of 5k accounts? This was specifically targetted and I'm sure I'll get banned on the forums for saying so. Its pretty clear.

The reality is, we pugged with plenty of people and we joked about radar but nobody ran it. All we did was dive hills and play to our advantage on hills, hence the name Swoop. From the 31 likes on our ban, I can tell people really didnt like that playstyle or disliked us for some reason and thats fine, comes with the territory.

Whats not cool, is removing an entire guilds RPs off assumptions. I lost 5 million RPs between two characters, but feel worse for guildmates. Chuupa returned from 15 years of DAoC, newish player that joined us as aug healer and never drove in his life but gets radar ban. Thats who I feel bad for. I also feel bad for Onnyx and Vitu who joined as well, and now they are wiped. Mancave has been spending the spring with his family and hasnt even played, gonna come back to wiped RPs. Faranz and Discotech both high RR healers and have hardly played. Its absurd.

I saw zero signs of radar when I played with them and mid people we pugged with can attest as well as guildmates, but honestly? I know its going to fall on deaf ears and we cant argue with the GMs here. They are unaccountable and can do as they please, so there is no point even questioning them.

You guys may have some perception that every single guildmate was a cartoon-moustache-twirling-villain but in reality we just ran a shit ton the last couple weeks. For the new people who joined us, it was fun while it lasted and appreciate the runs. For everyone else, believe what you want. If you dont think this ban is targeted though, I ask you to wait around and see how many others get banned for radar. I'd place money there wont be any and I'm really not sure what evidence they would have. We ran the same exact hill routes every day for 3 weeks, it wasn't rocket science.

Anyways, just wanted to toss my two cents in.

See ya

Automate/Powerline

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:07 AM by Doiri

Steviee wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:37 AM
[...]

2.) If this was a ban for radar or 3rd party program, there would be more people banned than one guild of 5k accounts? This was specifically targetted and I'm sure I'll get banned on the forums for saying so. Its pretty clear.

[...]

[...] If you dont think this ban is targeted though, I ask you to wait around and see how many others get banned for radar. I'd place money there wont be any and I'm really not sure what evidence they would have.

[...]

-->
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=55837#55837

vadox wrote: @Staff, you are saying that you only banned Swoop because they have highest ratio and others were just slapped on the wrist?
can we have a list of 'others' that also use this and what punishment was administrated to them?

Did I miss anything in @Staff statement?

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:24 PM
The others will be part of the normal, planned ban wave, which will be a perma for everyone using it. Swoop was just taken as an example at this time due to the advertisement / spamming of the one who made the tool used by them after we added detection for it.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:50 AM by waffel

Handful of scrub cheaters got banned. Think the server will be ok.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:47 AM by dansari

waffel wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:50 AM
Handful of scrub cheaters got banned. Think the server will be ok.

Sounds like somebody got <swooped>

FWIW when I pugged with Swoop I didn't suspect anything at all. In fact there was one time in particular we were fighting 2-3 staggered hib groups near a keep and 6fgh on a relic raid ran over us.. it's not like the supposed radar users couldn't have called inc.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:25 AM by Ashman

seems like fyi/legox and captain cox need new bards

pity

Sat 20 Apr 2019 8:26 AM by Freudinio

Who?

And who fucking cares?

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:11 PM by waffel

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 8:26 AM
Who?

And who fucking cares?

Right? These nerds act like they’re some well known guild that everyone knows and talks about.

Literally nobody knows or cares who these guys are. Nobody got killed in RvR and was like “whoa! Was that swoop?! That one guild that is real good and ganks people by swooping down hills like their guild name suggests?! Wow!”

Bye bye cheater scrubs.