Archers need love

Started 20 Mar 2019
by sagittas
in RvR
Without truesight and with a sucky rapid fire we can hardly solo anything. Atleast we have absolutly no chance vs any melee stealther. i dont see how higher rr can help me either as there are no RAs i havnt got that will change that.
Are the archer classes working as intended now, or will there be an change in the near future?

Sagittas the Scout
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:20 PM by noflex
I second this

archers needed a change before friar's IMO.. since it involves all 3 realms
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:30 PM by lourock
All archers really need IMHO is for MOS to work correctly. They have the same issue here as on live, the detection is ass backwards. Sins seeing archers from stealth way before an archer can react is not a good thing. Sins are top of the food chain here just as they were on live they need some natural predators.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:01 PM by Riac
lourock wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:30 PM
All archers really need IMHO is for MOS to work correctly. They have the same issue here as on live, the detection is ass backwards. Sins seeing archers from stealth way before an archer can react is not a good thing. Sins are top of the food chain here just as they were on live they need some natural predators.

so the archer should be able to see me ,a sb, and start aiming a CS before i can see him? seems a little rough, tbh i'd say that would almost be fair for scouts but for rangers that would make them over the top strong. they are already pretty strong since they dont have to spec pf since pots and charges are good here, they just spec bow cd and blades and are quite strong with ip being what it is.

assume this ranger CS me with blade arrow and i then have to fight him, starting from somewhere around half hp, and kill him twice over due to ip. all the while he is getting +dmg on me while having high combat specs, because most arent going to spec PF.

i sorta feel bad for scouts and hunters, but i feel no sympathy for rangers vs sins.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:16 PM by lourock
If they made MOS a purchased RA again instead of baking it in to stealth spec and added back the stealth detection. Then give back camo and make work against MOS as it was back on live 2011 it would be balanced. Never played the game in an era where it was more balanced between archer sin then that time right before broadsword.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:19 PM by Riac
lourock wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:16 PM
If they made MOS a purchased RA again instead of baking it in to stealth spec and added back the stealth detection. Then give back camo and make work against MOS as it was back on live 2011 it would be balanced. Never played the game in an era where it was more balanced between archer sin then that time right before broadsword.

if you get camo back do i get see hidden back? they took out camo and also took out see hidden.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:21 PM by Riac
Riac wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:19 PM
lourock wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:16 PM
If they made MOS a purchased RA again instead of baking it in to stealth spec and added back the stealth detection. Then give back camo and make work against MOS as it was back on live 2011 it would be balanced. Never played the game in an era where it was more balanced between archer sin then that time right before broadsword.

if you get camo back do i get see hidden back? but tbh i really wouldnt care if they got camo back, it has such a long cd and goes down when touched.

last time i played on live before broadsword i remember the scout assist trains standing on top of bridges and /assisting ppl down from what seemed like a mile away. i don't know of anyone that liked that, aside from the scouts ofc lol.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 11:36 PM by Luluko
I had enough "fun" with archers on live getting almost insta killed by 2-3 assisting you and you are almost dead before you even see one. I can live very well with a daoc server which isnt full with archers, since we want people to fight each too many sneaks will just lessen the fun and all those orportunist zergers will only show up if their escape toys are rdy.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:12 AM by AngelRose
Riac wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:01 PM
lourock wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:30 PM
All archers really need IMHO is for MOS to work correctly. They have the same issue here as on live, the detection is ass backwards. Sins seeing archers from stealth way before an archer can react is not a good thing. Sins are top of the food chain here just as they were on live they need some natural predators.

so the archer should be able to see me ,a sb, and start aiming a CS before i can see him? seems a little rough, tbh i'd say that would almost be fair for scouts but for rangers that would make them over the top strong. they are already pretty strong since they dont have to spec pf since pots and charges are good here, they just spec bow cd and blades and are quite strong with ip being what it is.

assume this ranger CS me with blade arrow and i then have to fight him, starting from somewhere around half hp, and kill him twice over due to ip. all the while he is getting +dmg on me while having high combat specs, because most arent going to spec PF.

i sorta feel bad for scouts and hunters, but i feel no sympathy for rangers vs sins.

Why should sins see archers before we can even see you? At least make it the same range
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:46 AM by Riac
AngelRose wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:12 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:01 PM
lourock wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:30 PM
All archers really need IMHO is for MOS to work correctly. They have the same issue here as on live, the detection is ass backwards. Sins seeing archers from stealth way before an archer can react is not a good thing. Sins are top of the food chain here just as they were on live they need some natural predators.

so the archer should be able to see me ,a sb, and start aiming a CS before i can see him? seems a little rough, tbh i'd say that would almost be fair for scouts but for rangers that would make them over the top strong. they are already pretty strong since they dont have to spec pf since pots and charges are good here, they just spec bow cd and blades and are quite strong with ip being what it is.

assume this ranger CS me with blade arrow and i then have to fight him, starting from somewhere around half hp, and kill him twice over due to ip. all the while he is getting +dmg on me while having high combat specs, because most arent going to spec PF.

i sorta feel bad for scouts and hunters, but i feel no sympathy for rangers vs sins.

Why should sins see archers before we can even see you? At least make it the same range

why should archers see sins before sins can see them? kinda makes sense to me that archers (ranged class) is at a disadvantage in close quarters, seems like that should apply to vision and combat. maybe you should stay away from high traffic areas, the sort of places that sins normally walk, and if you're not quite sure where those areas are then keep playing, you'll find out :p
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:30 AM by AngelRose
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:46 AM
AngelRose wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:12 AM
Riac wrote:
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:01 PM
so the archer should be able to see me ,a sb, and start aiming a CS before i can see him? seems a little rough, tbh i'd say that would almost be fair for scouts but for rangers that would make them over the top strong. they are already pretty strong since they dont have to spec pf since pots and charges are good here, they just spec bow cd and blades and are quite strong with ip being what it is.

assume this ranger CS me with blade arrow and i then have to fight him, starting from somewhere around half hp, and kill him twice over due to ip. all the while he is getting +dmg on me while having high combat specs, because most arent going to spec PF.

i sorta feel bad for scouts and hunters, but i feel no sympathy for rangers vs sins.

Why should sins see archers before we can even see you? At least make it the same range

why should archers see sins before sins can see them? kinda makes sense to me that archers (ranged class) is at a disadvantage in close quarters, seems like that should apply to vision and combat. maybe you should stay away from high traffic areas, the sort of places that sins normally walk, and if you're not quite sure where those areas are then keep playing, you'll find out :p

What a smug post. L2r...I said the SAME, not better. And, all I am reading is a sin saying, "I need the advantage"........good for you
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:29 AM by semadin
Yea i dont think the dynamic with assassins is all that bad. Everyone has to deal with the ridiculousness of assassins. If you bide your time and shoot them when they are vis, they are easy food. If you get jumped first, it's pretty much like what every other class has to deal with.

Where Archers are lacking is in the nature of how pointless it is to spec above 51 mod bow. There's virtually no damage increase and no utility increase (no point in penetrate or the higher end rapid fire - and even if those two did something, there's nothing at 50).

So you end up with homogenized specs - along with imbalance introduced by the buff pots and charges. As pointed out a Ranger and Hunter can have full benefit of melee and bow, while being as equally buffed as every other solo out there.

(on the side subject of buff pots and the solo game, you might make the argument that this game wasn't designed around solo, but that's exactly who the buff pots and charges are put in to benefit, since everyone else can just group for their buffs...they put stealthers, and especially assassins way over the top,, and really we should be looking at a game where solo stealthers have no buffs, or those that have their own sacrifice one core ability or another)

Where's the choice between melee, sniper, hybrid? There really is none.

I suppose for a Ranger or Hunter you could make the argument that they stand as a decent option for people who can't ever farm gold - but that doesn't address the balance issues.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:27 AM by Riac
i know its off topic but i dont think sins are really that over the top. most hybrids, light tanks, and tanks stand a pretty good chance equally buffed and equal rr against a sin. they have access to the very same buffs and charges that sins do. hell, even a ranger stands a pretty good chance lol

I'm aware most casters dont stand a chance.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:39 AM by Glimmer
1)Counter vs assassin vanish, atm they got damn stealth immune detection.
2)Less evade vs arrows/miss chance.
3)Better defense vs assassins, their ability to evade almost every single melee swing is OP(this made me almost delete my scout so many times...) !
4)Brink back NF Mastery of Stealth ! or give archers more spec pts to spec more in stealth(stealth will provide NF MOS till 50lvl specced).
5)Give us reason to spec more than 35 bow, atm it's worthless.

Regards
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:10 AM by Cadebrennus
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:27 AM
i know its off topic but i dont think sins are really that over the top. most hybrids, light tanks, and tanks stand a pretty good chance equally buffed and equal rr against a sin. they have access to the very same buffs and charges that sins do. hell, even a ranger stands a pretty good chance lol

I'm aware most casters dont stand a chance.

Tanks shouldn't just "stand a chance." Tanks should be able to obliterate a stealther in melee. However with how OP'ed Assassins are on Phoenix even Tanks have problems with Assassins. The real issue is Envenom. It's still too powerful (even moreso with boosted Viper) and wins fights for Assassins that they shouldn't win.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:17 AM by Sepplord
tanks do not "just stand a chance"

Whenever i am attacked by a single stealther on my Warrior i absolutely wipe the floor with them, unless they are much higher RRs (and that is with groupspec low parry and Det/Aom/DD)

similar when i accidently attack an armsman or fian on my SB. I almost died to a lvl48armsman once (though i didn't have purge).
I might just be much more skilled on my warrior than on my SB, but i doubt it...i'm pretty mediocre on both of them and have played the SB solo MUCH more than the warri
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:55 AM by Luluko
Glimmer wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:39 AM
1)Counter vs assassin vanish, atm they got damn stealth immune detection.
2)Less evade vs arrows/miss chance.
3)Better defense vs assassins, their ability to evade almost every single melee swing is OP(this made me almost delete my scout so many times...) !
4)Brink back NF Mastery of Stealth ! or give archers more spec pts to spec more in stealth(stealth will provide NF MOS till 50lvl specced).
5)Give us reason to spec more than 35 bow, atm it's worthless.

Regards
well shield styles dont have a high to hit bonus, maybe its worth to look into a higher weapon specc if you have a stun there you can rely on

and I blocked like 2 slams from armsmen yesterday on my shaman :>
Thu 21 Mar 2019 12:08 PM by Glimmer
Luluko wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:55 AM
Glimmer wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:39 AM
1)Counter vs assassin vanish, atm they got damn stealth immune detection.
2)Less evade vs arrows/miss chance.
3)Better defense vs assassins, their ability to evade almost every single melee swing is OP(this made me almost delete my scout so many times...) !
4)Brink back NF Mastery of Stealth ! or give archers more spec pts to spec more in stealth(stealth will provide NF MOS till 50lvl specced).
5)Give us reason to spec more than 35 bow, atm it's worthless.

Regards
well shield styles dont have a high to hit bonus, maybe its worth to look into a higher weapon specc if you have a stun there you can rely on

and I blocked like 2 slams from armsmen yesterday on my shaman :>

I not mean shield styles cus yes they got preaty damn low hit chance, i talk about Medium Hit bonus styles which got evaded alot(yes i strafe but it doesn't rly help at all)
Block rate is weaker vs dual wielders than 1h users 2h users =)

Regards
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:47 PM by Sepplord
hit rate doesn't influence defense penetration. Only hit rate...aka flat miss-chance
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:55 PM by Bobbahunter
Everything is Working as intended if its working for you!
I'm curious if the GMs all play Assassins or do they have these same conversations with each other?
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:31 PM by cere2
Fix assassin detection range. make both archer and sin see each other @ 250. Not enough time for archer to get shot off, but perhaps enough time to move sideways or something to avoid PA.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:47 PM by Luluko
Glimmer wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 12:08 PM
Luluko wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:55 AM
Glimmer wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:39 AM
1)Counter vs assassin vanish, atm they got damn stealth immune detection.
2)Less evade vs arrows/miss chance.
3)Better defense vs assassins, their ability to evade almost every single melee swing is OP(this made me almost delete my scout so many times...) !
4)Brink back NF Mastery of Stealth ! or give archers more spec pts to spec more in stealth(stealth will provide NF MOS till 50lvl specced).
5)Give us reason to spec more than 35 bow, atm it's worthless.

Regards
well shield styles dont have a high to hit bonus, maybe its worth to look into a higher weapon specc if you have a stun there you can rely on

and I blocked like 2 slams from armsmen yesterday on my shaman :>

I not mean shield styles cus yes they got preaty damn low hit chance, i talk about Medium Hit bonus styles which got evaded alot(yes i strafe but it doesn't rly help at all)
Block rate is weaker vs dual wielders than 1h users 2h users =)

Regards
are you suggesting you do anything else on a scout in melee than trying to land slam ? well the problem isnt just the evade also the weaponskill debuff they have add to that str/con debuff and say goodbye to your hitchance I had that happen to my skald recently (also only has like 1200ish weaponskill with pot buffs) got weapon con debuffed and I couldnt even finish a ns which only 40% and I 60% at the time was rly frustrating didnt think I would have to purge that debuff he still killed me tho with 10% left.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:21 PM by Riac
i do feel bad for scouts since all they can really do is slam me and hope my purge is down so they can critshot me again, but all of these things are going to indirectly buff rangers and rangers are already strong af imo.

the other night i was running unstealthed around crim (i was boering, late at night, and i had vanish up so why not) this rr6 luri ranger (in an undyed gov chest and malice axe skins, idk know his name but maybe some on hib do) shot the shit out of me (cs i assume, idk) and then shot me again (which brought me to about half hp) so i vanish. then a skald runs up on this luri and this luri beat the brakes off this skald, using ip and all the other stuff. the skald had all the fancy chest and helm skins so i assume he was temped. after that fight the ranger still had about 30% hp left.

you ever tried to fight yamyams?

i think this thread should be called scouts need love, not so much archers.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:35 PM by cere2
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:21 PM
i do feel bad for scouts since all they can really do is slam me and hope my purge is down so they can critshot me again, but all of these things are going to indirectly buff rangers and rangers are already strong af imo.

the other night i was running unstealthed around crim (i was boering, late at night, and i had vanish up so why not) this rr6 luri ranger (in an undyed gov chest and malice axe skins, idk know his name but maybe some on hib do) shot the shit out of me (cs i assume, idk) and then shot me again (which brought me to about half hp) so i vanish. then a skald runs up on this luri and this luri beat the brakes off this skald, using ip and all the other stuff. the skald had all the fancy chest and helm skins so i assume he was temped. after that fight the ranger still had about 30% hp left.

you ever tried to fight yamyams?

i think this thread should be called scouts need love, not so much archers.

I don't think scouts are at such a disadvantage as some think. Unless engage is totally broken. Most are just one trick ponies. Slam, crit crit win, or slam they purge, and they have no melee to do much else.
How many have tactics? Maybe spec lower in shield, more melee, use bash, get a purge on numb etc...maybe ditch shield all together and try out 50 thrust for the 9 sec off evade stun?
I'll admit I have not played scout yet on this server but had plenty of exp with them on classic and on.
Honestly if they fix this detection range to be equal archers might put up more of a fight since perhaps sin's wont just get free PA's anymore.
Perhaps some archers are a tough fight right now, but from what I have been seeing, if its a 1v1 85% of the time archer is free rps.
On the other hand, if nothing changes, we can expect more fg's of stealthers farming solo's duo's smallman's just like it is on live.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:42 PM by Riac
cere2 wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:35 PM
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:21 PM
i do feel bad for scouts since all they can really do is slam me and hope my purge is down so they can critshot me again, but all of these things are going to indirectly buff rangers and rangers are already strong af imo.

the other night i was running unstealthed around crim (i was boering, late at night, and i had vanish up so why not) this rr6 luri ranger (in an undyed gov chest and malice axe skins, idk know his name but maybe some on hib do) shot the shit out of me (cs i assume, idk) and then shot me again (which brought me to about half hp) so i vanish. then a skald runs up on this luri and this luri beat the brakes off this skald, using ip and all the other stuff. the skald had all the fancy chest and helm skins so i assume he was temped. after that fight the ranger still had about 30% hp left.

you ever tried to fight yamyams?

i think this thread should be called scouts need love, not so much archers.

I don't think scouts are at such a disadvantage as some think. Unless engage is totally broken. Most are just one trick ponies. Slam, crit crit win, or slam they purge, and they have no melee to do much else.
How many have tactics? Maybe spec lower in shield, more melee, use bash, get a purge on numb etc...maybe ditch shield all together and try out 50 thrust for the 9 sec off evade stun?
I'll admit I have not played scout yet on this server but had plenty of exp with them on classic and on.
Honestly if they fix this detection range to be equal archers might put up more of a fight since perhaps sin's wont just get free PA's anymore.
Perhaps some archers are a tough fight right now, but from what I have been seeing, if its a 1v1 85% of the time archer is free rps.
On the other hand, if nothing changes, we can expect more fg's of stealthers farming solo's duo's smallman's just like it is on live.

i agree with most of this for sure, although even if vision were to be changed i doubt youd stop seeing the stealth groups. did anyone honestly make a scout to try and solo? seems like a rough proposition if so.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:25 PM by semadin
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:21 PM
i do feel bad for scouts since all they can really do is slam me and hope my purge is down so they can critshot me again, but all of these things are going to indirectly buff rangers and rangers are already strong af imo.

the other night i was running unstealthed around crim (i was boering, late at night, and i had vanish up so why not) this rr6 luri ranger (in an undyed gov chest and malice axe skins, idk know his name but maybe some on hib do) shot the shit out of me (cs i assume, idk) and then shot me again (which brought me to about half hp) so i vanish. then a skald runs up on this luri and this luri beat the brakes off this skald, using ip and all the other stuff. the skald had all the fancy chest and helm skins so i assume he was temped. after that fight the ranger still had about 30% hp left.

you ever tried to fight yamyams?

i think this thread should be called scouts need love, not so much archers.

I think the problem there comes from the ability to self buff with charges/potions. Gives the ranger the ability to max bow and melee w/o sacrificing anything - whereas the base design should have them choosing between melee or ranged, or hybrid.

Putting value into bow above 35 would result in more ranger running around with less melee capability in any case.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:29 PM by Riac
semadin wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:25 PM
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:21 PM
i do feel bad for scouts since all they can really do is slam me and hope my purge is down so they can critshot me again, but all of these things are going to indirectly buff rangers and rangers are already strong af imo.

the other night i was running unstealthed around crim (i was boering, late at night, and i had vanish up so why not) this rr6 luri ranger (in an undyed gov chest and malice axe skins, idk know his name but maybe some on hib do) shot the shit out of me (cs i assume, idk) and then shot me again (which brought me to about half hp) so i vanish. then a skald runs up on this luri and this luri beat the brakes off this skald, using ip and all the other stuff. the skald had all the fancy chest and helm skins so i assume he was temped. after that fight the ranger still had about 30% hp left.

you ever tried to fight yamyams?

i think this thread should be called scouts need love, not so much archers.

I think the problem there comes from the ability to self buff with charges/potions. Gives the ranger the ability to max bow and melee w/o sacrificing anything - whereas the base design should have them choosing between melee or ranged, or hybrid.

Putting value into bow above 35 would result in more ranger running around with less melee capability in any case.

i dont think they need an incentive to spec more bow, it already hurts. i think they need more of an incentive to spec pf, it should be on par w/ charges.
bow dmg seems fine, i do think its a little crazy it doesnt pierce caster bladeturn though.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:39 PM by semadin
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:29 PM
semadin wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:25 PM
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:21 PM
i do feel bad for scouts since all they can really do is slam me and hope my purge is down so they can critshot me again, but all of these things are going to indirectly buff rangers and rangers are already strong af imo.

the other night i was running unstealthed around crim (i was boering, late at night, and i had vanish up so why not) this rr6 luri ranger (in an undyed gov chest and malice axe skins, idk know his name but maybe some on hib do) shot the shit out of me (cs i assume, idk) and then shot me again (which brought me to about half hp) so i vanish. then a skald runs up on this luri and this luri beat the brakes off this skald, using ip and all the other stuff. the skald had all the fancy chest and helm skins so i assume he was temped. after that fight the ranger still had about 30% hp left.

you ever tried to fight yamyams?

i think this thread should be called scouts need love, not so much archers.

I think the problem there comes from the ability to self buff with charges/potions. Gives the ranger the ability to max bow and melee w/o sacrificing anything - whereas the base design should have them choosing between melee or ranged, or hybrid.

Putting value into bow above 35 would result in more ranger running around with less melee capability in any case.

i dont think they need an incentive to spec more bow, it already hurts. i think they need more of an incentive to spec pf, it should be on par w/ charges.
bow dmg seems fine, i do think its a little crazy it doesnt pierce caster bladeturn though.

that would also be a good thing for people who can't afford to run charges/pots all the time (though wouldn't change the fact that those who can run pots/charges are running around with all abilities maxed out).

I dont think bow needs more damage, but there should be some kind of value in going above 35 - easy ones being piercing BT, overcoming defenses like block/evade (had a shaman block a shot from me yesterday...that's bonkers).

I could see actually changing archery so that the damage you get at 35+15 actually requires 45+15 (evening out it's growth). For the ranger then if PF was bumped to match charge numbers, you'd have rangers in a spot where they'd be forced to chose between melee and ranged.

Since that's technically a nerf to archery, I'm assuming people who lose their shit over that kind of change.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:47 PM by Riac
i agree theyd have to stretch out the growth a bit on archery otherwise itd be jsut 2 shotting soft ppl.
just now in the entrance to emain they had no less than 5 scouts sitting there popping on ppl, now image if those dudes had more dmg on bow lol.

it would be a no one below a 5 man shall pass sort of situation.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:39 PM by Tillbeast
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:47 PM
i agree theyd have to stretch out the growth a bit on archery otherwise itd be jsut 2 shotting soft ppl.
just now in the entrance to emain they had no less than 5 scouts sitting there popping on ppl, now image if those dudes had more dmg on bow lol.

it would be a no one below a 5 man shall pass sort of situation.

Not quite a no more pass situation as all it would take 1 aoe to interrupt archers but 5 scouts (or any other archer) should drop a single target just as quick as what 5 eldrichts/runemasters/wizards do now. To be honest probably 4 clothe casters could do same damage as 5 archers. My old guild before we logged for the night would find one of the hibs or albion premium 8v8 team and the 5 or 6 hunter team would just 1 shot the bard/minstrel before we got facerolled by the remaining 7 members
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:41 PM by Riac
Tillbeast wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:39 PM
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:47 PM
i agree theyd have to stretch out the growth a bit on archery otherwise itd be jsut 2 shotting soft ppl.
just now in the entrance to emain they had no less than 5 scouts sitting there popping on ppl, now image if those dudes had more dmg on bow lol.

it would be a no one below a 5 man shall pass sort of situation.

Not quite a no more pass situation as all it would take 1 aoe to interrupt archers but 5 scouts (or any other archer) should drop a single target just as quick as what 5 eldrichts/runemasters/wizards do now. To be honest probably 4 clothe casters could do same damage as 5 archers. My old guild before we logged for the night would find one of the hibs or albion premium 8v8 team and the 5 or 6 hunter team would just 1 shot the bard/minstrel before we got facerolled by the remaining 7 members

im sure they could, the main difference is the 5-man cloth team doesnt sit there in stealth and 1 shot you from range. you sorta also assume these scouts are clumped up, the smart ones will stagger a bit to avoid this sort of thing. they did all die but it was just rofl seeing all these dudes popping out shooting the shit out of ppl lol

the situation you are describing here i think is the one that most ppl would like to avoid btw.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:20 AM by Tillbeast
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:41 PM
Tillbeast wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:39 PM
Riac wrote:
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:47 PM
i agree theyd have to stretch out the growth a bit on archery otherwise itd be jsut 2 shotting soft ppl.
just now in the entrance to emain they had no less than 5 scouts sitting there popping on ppl, now image if those dudes had more dmg on bow lol.

it would be a no one below a 5 man shall pass sort of situation.

Not quite a no more pass situation as all it would take 1 aoe to interrupt archers but 5 scouts (or any other archer) should drop a single target just as quick as what 5 eldrichts/runemasters/wizards do now. To be honest probably 4 clothe casters could do same damage as 5 archers. My old guild before we logged for the night would find one of the hibs or albion premium 8v8 team and the 5 or 6 hunter team would just 1 shot the bard/minstrel before we got facerolled by the remaining 7 members

im sure they could, the main difference is the 5-man cloth team doesnt sit there in stealth and 1 shot you from range. you sorta also assume these scouts are clumped up, the smart ones will stagger a bit to avoid this sort of thing. they did all die but it was just rofl seeing all these dudes popping out shooting the shit out of ppl lol

the situation you are describing here i think is the one that most ppl would like to avoid btw.

hey how easy is it to hide on a milegate and then just strafe to fire spell. Yes archers have that initial shock effect of coming out of stealth and yes no one clumps up to make it easy but any range class that groups is a considerable threat. Think we are both on same side as too many see a problem with 5 archers assisting out of stealth than what 5 casters assisting without being stealthed.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:22 AM by lourock
I honestly feel that archers are pretty balanced on Phoenix. I feel the problem is that Sins are overtuned here just like on live. All stealthers should be able to solo. However, all stealthers should think twice before hitting certain classes like heavies. Archers have this balance sins do not. Sins need to get checked but with the current stealth system they have nobody actively hunting them and threatening their livelyhood. Some simple changes to MOS and camo would give them that threat at least while Camo is active.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:38 AM by Leandrys
ASNs are the standard ego's class, they can kill potentially anything in the game depending of situation and if they fail to, well, vanish, bye. They're built for ego's flatteging. Just look at their arsenal, basically they can debuff S/C, snare poison, dot, burst AND dps, disease, formidable melee styles, stun(s), any time snare, stealth (well, ofc tho...), NS can cast a bit (da fuk ?) just in case they miserably fail on casters. Something goes wrong ? Oh wait, purge + Vanish.

What i mean is... Can't really "balance" them, you'll just earn thousands of "BUT WE CAN'T GROUP SO WE HAVE TO BE STRONG IN 1VS1" and other funny arguments, just check the little shitstorm we were starting to have when weapon switch was a bit nerfed, and the worst thing is they're kinda right, Mythic totally failed their stealth's concept with that perma invisibility and went 100% conservatism with that, "doesn't work, let's keep it that way". Results are impossible to group classes, forcing them to let ASNs be such predators and bow "meh" at the best. (which is fine imo, what's wrong and weak is the rest on archers)

Stealth is ****ed up in DAOC, it's just insane but it also ruins all possible balance, blame Mythic, they've always been extremely lazy when it comes to balance, ASNs are the shiny and FOTM class by excellence (they've had their own darkest hours, but it didn't last for long compared to their bright ones), archers are what they are, won't develop too much on them, i do not think anymore they will evolve in a noticeable way on Phoenix.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:55 AM by Ashman
#vanishforarchers

make it happen
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:05 AM by lourock
Leandrys wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:38 AM
ASNs are the standard ego's class, they can kill potentially anything in the game depending of situation and if they fail to, well, vanish, bye. They're built for ego's flatteging. Just look at their arsenal, basically they can debuff S/C, snare poison, dot, burst AND dps, disease, formidable melee styles, stun(s), any time snare, stealth (well, ofc tho...), NS can cast a bit (da fuk ?) just in case they miserably fail on casters. Something goes wrong ? Oh wait, purge + Vanish.

What i mean is... Can't really "balance" them, you'll just earn thousands of "BUT WE CAN'T GROUP SO WE HAVE TO BE STRONG IN 1VS1" and other funny arguments, just check the little shit storm we were starting to have when weapon switch was a bit nerfed, and the worst thing is they're kinda right, Mythic totally failed their stealth's concept with that perma invisibility and went 100% conservatism with that, "doesn't work, let's keep it that way". Results are impossible to group classes, forcing them to let ASNs be such predators and bow "meh" at the best. (which is fine imo, what's wrong and weak is the rest on archers)

Stealth is ****ed up in DAOC, it's just insane but it also ruins all possible balance, blame Mythic, they've always been extremely lazy when it comes to balance, ASNs are the shiny and FOTM class by excellence (they've had their own darkest hours, but it didn't last for long compared to their bright ones), archers are what they are, won't develop too much on them, i do not think anymore they will evolve in a noticeable way on Phoenix.


All great points I agree 100 percent Sins are the e peeners class but even those with big egos need a bigger fish. There should always be a bigger fish. Even if that bigger fish is weak to other classes. One point I do disagree on is that the current sin meta on Phoenix is Mythic's fault. I mean this server has nothing to do with Mythic and is pretty darn custom. /Switch is a huge issue and again as I said on another thread I cringe as I say this but it takes the "skill" out of playing the assassin archetype. I mentioned earlier about Sin/archer balance on ywain in 2011 Bioware had just taken over for Mythic. At the time Sins and a 500 point DD poison that was completely spam-able It was a mess! At the time I had 2 archers on ywain a melee hybrid hunter speced exactly like the hunters do here 39 spear etc and i am a melee centric player I still had a high kill rate vs Sins why? Because most Sins were shit at swapping. The few true elite solo sins who were good at swapping would melt me. But that was few and far between. I was also able on my hunter and my ranger (most of the time) to get 1-2 shots to soften up the sin before they closed distance. This was due to MOS 9 and Camo. When Camo was down it was much trickier and Camo humping was hard to do once you use it, it had a long CD. That was balance, but it did not last long.

Right now on live many people have cancelled because of Sins they completely went full retard with them. They are not as bad here but they are close. Get rid of /switch, get rid of baked in MOS in stealth spec and watch sins get brought back to earth. I do not feel Archers need much more the bow seems to hit pretty hard they cant kill non afk heavy tanks and thats fine. Rock paper scissors devs remember? This is a custom QOL server but QOL shouldnt mean Sins running around insta blapping everything on 2 legs. Give the archers a chance to fight back try it, create a new meta. People will bitch about archers, sure but everyone hates dying to ranged that's how we got here in the first place.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:12 AM by Riac
Leandrys wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:38 AM
ASNs are the standard ego's class, they can kill potentially anything in the game depending of situation and if they fail to, well, vanish, bye. They're built for ego's flatteging. Just look at their arsenal, basically they can debuff S/C, snare poison, dot, burst AND dps, disease, formidable melee styles, stun(s), any time snare, stealth (well, ofc tho...), NS can cast a bit (da fuk ?) just in case they miserably fail on casters. Something goes wrong ? Oh wait, purge + Vanish.

What i mean is... Can't really "balance" them, you'll just earn thousands of "BUT WE CAN'T GROUP SO WE HAVE TO BE STRONG IN 1VS1" and other funny arguments, just check the little shitstorm we were starting to have when weapon switch was a bit nerfed, and the worst thing is they're kinda right, Mythic totally failed their stealth's concept with that perma invisibility and went 100% conservatism with that, "doesn't work, let's keep it that way". Results are impossible to group classes, forcing them to let ASNs be such predators and bow "meh" at the best. (which is fine imo, what's wrong and weak is the rest on archers)

Stealth is ****ed up in DAOC, it's just insane but it also ruins all possible balance, blame Mythic, they've always been extremely lazy when it comes to balance, ASNs are the shiny and FOTM class by excellence (they've had their own darkest hours, but it didn't last for long compared to their bright ones), archers are what they are, won't develop too much on them, i do not think anymore they will evolve in a noticeable way on Phoenix.

the amount of ad hominem in the first paragraph is pretty outstanding lol
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:35 AM by semadin
Maybe the balance of assassins starts by taking away their self buffing abilities 😄
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:51 AM by Riac
semadin wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:35 AM
Maybe the balance of assassins starts by taking away their self buffing abilities 😄

that essentially takes away everyones abils to self buff that isnt built into their class. this game isnt exactly fun unbuffed, its sooo slow.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:51 AM by Mavella
lourock wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:05 AM
Right now on live many people have cancelled because of Sins they completely went full retard with them. They are not as bad here but they are close. Get rid of /switch, get rid of baked in MOS in stealth spec and watch sins get brought back to earth. I do not feel Archers need much more the bow seems to hit pretty hard they cant kill non afk heavy tanks and thats fine. Rock paper scissors devs remember? This is a custom QOL server but QOL shouldnt mean Sins running around insta blapping everything on 2 legs. Give the archers a chance to fight back try it, create a new meta. People will bitch about archers, sure but everyone hates dying to ranged that's how we got here in the first place.

MOS provides nothing except move speed in stealth on this server and archers have access to the same benefits. /switch was already nerfed weeks ago. No assassin is going to jump an equal RR heavy tank light tank or hybrid without both purge and vanish up unless they are looking to make a rapid trip back to their PK. The only things getting "insta-blapped" are casters, lowbie, and untemped 50s. I've also had very close straight up melee fights with well played equal RR rangers and scouts so they certainly aren't helpless.

Reduce the range at which assassins can see archers so they odnt have such easy perfs and the problem will be much improved. Of all archers hunters need the most help by a wide margin.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:28 PM by waffel
Assassins: 5 point vanish to reset any fight and escape any death
Minstrels: 5 point SoS to reset any fight and escape any death
Archers: ???
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:44 PM by kedelin
Mavella wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:51 AM
lourock wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:05 AM
Right now on live many people have cancelled because of Sins they completely went full retard with them. They are not as bad here but they are close. Get rid of /switch, get rid of baked in MOS in stealth spec and watch sins get brought back to earth. I do not feel Archers need much more the bow seems to hit pretty hard they cant kill non afk heavy tanks and thats fine. Rock paper scissors devs remember? This is a custom QOL server but QOL shouldnt mean Sins running around insta blapping everything on 2 legs. Give the archers a chance to fight back try it, create a new meta. People will bitch about archers, sure but everyone hates dying to ranged that's how we got here in the first place.

MOS provides nothing except move speed in stealth on this server and archers have access to the same benefits. /switch was already nerfed weeks ago. No assassin is going to jump an equal RR heavy tank light tank or hybrid without both purge and vanish up unless they are looking to make a rapid trip back to their PK. The only things getting "insta-blapped" are casters, lowbie, and untemped 50s. I've also had very close straight up melee fights with well played equal RR rangers and scouts so they certainly aren't helpless.

Reduce the range at which assassins can see archers so they odnt have such easy perfs and the problem will be much improved. Of all archers hunters need the most help by a wide margin.

Ya maybe give the hunters pet some love like a snare style and a standard pet movement speed.. even if they added the new pet at 40bc...
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:12 PM by Horus
Current state on Phoenix..
(does not include other archers as the target)
1. An archer cannot kill any equally ranked/equipped target 1 on 1 at range unless the target is distracted or does not know how to play their class.
2. An archer cannot kill any equally ranked/equipped target in melee unless the enemy does not know how to play their class or some super statistically rare RNGs.
3. They cannot successfully use stealth due to the unfair imbalance of detection range and rampant population of assassins.
4. They cannot get groups because they bring nothing to the table that is not easily outdone by a diff class.

What they can do...
1. Kill levelers
2. Add on existing fights
3. Zerg surf with Rapid fire
4. Kill each other

Maybe that is just the role expected on Phoenix and we should embrace it...

At this point I think a crossbow Armsman would be a archer than an archer. At least you have a chance of surviving assassins and maybe finishing off a target in melee after they sprint to you with full endo regen. Who cares about crit shot. It rarely lands anyway.

Oh yea and...

Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:48 PM by Cearex
I recently hit 50 on my Ranger and am not sure where a lot of these claims are coming from. I went with the balanced spec with a slight adjustment to have 50 stealth before rr5, and after templating I am not having much trouble in RvR. I've killed each stealthers class 1v1 entirely in melee, and treat bow as a nice to have ability when the situation allows for it. Granted, a lot of my survivability comes from RAs (purge and IP), but the same could be said about most other classes. My character doesn't feel weak at all, and I'm actually quite happy that i went with a ranger over Nightshade.

To add at least a little value to the thread, if any rangers are struggling in melee your bread and butter is spectrum blade - the 30% haste debuff, and that pairs well with the shadow walker blade Dex quick debuff.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:58 PM by Cadebrennus
Horus wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:12 PM
Current state on Phoenix..
(does not include other archers as the target)
1. An archer cannot kill any equally ranked/equipped target 1 on 1 at range unless the target is distracted or does not know how to play their class.
2. An archer cannot kill any equally ranked/equipped target in melee unless the enemy does not know how to play their class or some super statistically rare RNGs.
3. They cannot successfully use stealth due to the unfair imbalance of detection range and rampant population of assassins.
4. They cannot get groups because they bring nothing to the table that is not easily outdone by a diff class.

What they can do...
1. Kill levelers
2. Add on existing fights
3. Zerg surf with Rapid fire
4. Kill each other

Maybe that is just the role expected on Phoenix and we should embrace it...

At this point I think a crossbow Armsman would be a archer than an archer. At least you have a chance of surviving assassins and maybe finishing off a target in melee after they sprint to you with full endo regen. Who cares about crit shot. It rarely lands anyway.

Oh yea and...



Well said Horus.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:39 PM by semadin
Riac wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:51 AM
semadin wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:35 AM
Maybe the balance of assassins starts by taking away their self buffing abilities 😄

that essentially takes away everyones abils to self buff that isnt built into their class. this game isnt exactly fun unbuffed, its sooo slow.

How do we actually know this? Unbuffed vs unbuffed seems fine. Unbuffed vs Buffed is the problem. And the classes are not designed with being buffed outside of a group setting in mind.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:44 PM by Riac
semadin wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:39 PM
Riac wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:51 AM
semadin wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:35 AM
Maybe the balance of assassins starts by taking away their self buffing abilities 😄

that essentially takes away everyones abils to self buff that isnt built into their class. this game isnt exactly fun unbuffed, its sooo slow.

How do we actually know this? Unbuffed vs unbuffed seems fine. Unbuffed vs Buffed is the problem. And the classes are not designed with being buffed outside of a group setting in mind.

not sure which part you are talking about. considering sin only way to self buff is pot/charge, if thats taken out then everyone loses out on that.

if youre referring to the slow play of unbuffed, then yea, its just not fun. its sooooo slow, a fight will take forever to complete and its almost 100% you will be added on before that fight reaches a conclusion. then youll have things like friars and combat wardens running about, who would be able to kill that 1v1? it would take like 3 sins to kill one of those. i already cant kill friars with buffs lol.

the game was made odd when they loaded 150 worth of stats into buffs (i think thats what purple buffs gives you, i get 100 from my charge/cf barrel) and only 75 in the gear, should have been the other way around.
Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:38 AM by Leandrys
Riac wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:12 AM
the amount of ad hominem in the first paragraph is pretty outstanding lol

Nah, it's always been the basic R0xXoR class of daoc as we used to say long ago, black dyes, red weapons, funny hats, stuff like that. It's done for these people, specs are designed for this "alpha predator self esteem", RAs just give even more potential, the lone wolf, the dark predator, whatever flots your boat, whatever gives the opportunity of playing a class build for 1vs1 in a RvR game when no class should have been designed for that specifically. Ofc not everybody plays them in such spirit, but a lot of players do, it wasn't done for that at the beginning, but the failure their design was quickly made 'em the FOTM class for these players.

The main issue which created that state was the retarded and lazy design of stealth in daoc, when they've decided to let that horror in this state, they simple sentenced to death these classes for group and there we are, with impossible to group classes in a game where each class should have able able to group.

Mythic sucks, almost as much as my english does, they've always done so and that's what killed them, DAOC is a formidable idea done in the couldn't-care-less+anyway-i-have-no-idea-what-i'm-doing way in multiple aspects. And that mistake was freaking easy to correct. I'm not blaming players, i play ASN myself but it just feels so much dirty, it's so easy to kill anything and to escape if anything goes wrong, this class almost has no point at all for RvR, i'm basically farming RPs without any sense and other objective than winning even more 1vs1/2 as RR increases, wtf ?

PS : although climb is a cool feature, but with OF keeps, meh.
Sat 23 Mar 2019 9:56 AM by Citian
Leandrys wrote:
Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:38 AM
...Assassins... etc.


While this thread is about archers, I have to say I dont think you understand the principle of assassins. DAOCs iteration of the assassin is one of my personal favorites in an MMO. The term 'assassin' should not exude: 'group-friendly', 'low-dps', or 'low-burst'; but instead, obviously, the opposites of those.

Mythic, or rather EA I believe, tried to make an alternative temporary stealth with Warhammer and that did not work. They had to make the two mirror classes more powerful or harder targets to compensate.

And it is specifically for the reasons you are complaining, despite playing one, that Mark Jacobs will ruin his next iteration of stealthers in Camelot Unchained. Overcomplication, overengineering, reinventing the wheel. DAOC had it right with these assassins, and the archers were good counterplay/food dependent on range/attacker and on RA/camou timers (not as of currently).

+1 rant
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:20 PM by Leandrys
Or maybe you do not understand Mythic failed badly and weren't competent with class design, hey, who knows, everybody can be wrong and ignoring it. ;P

Who knows, you might even liking that class because it's botched and fitting your tastes because it allows terrible gameplay while not having its place in a rvr game. As i said, everybody can be wrong, including me, including you. =)

But as i said, it's not the problem, players never are the problem, Mythic was simply bad, very bad.
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:58 PM by Citian
Assassins and archers, to a lesser extent, do serve a purpose in RvR. They represent their archetype very well which is why I like them.

For example: if a group friendly class chooses to instead run by himself through the frontier. This places that class outside zerg, 8v8, or small man in terms of role/balance and places him instead in a 1v1 bracket that assassins and archers excel in.

Most classes, which again I dont think you understand, excel in either group play or solo/smallman play. That isnt a hallmark of failed design, though, the 'realm' is a large place with a need for many playstyles. If anything, requiring group-play or getting smashed would be a failed design.

If that is difficult to understand its an intelligence issue.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:09 AM by Leandrys
Sure, stealth in daoc is by far the best way ever implemented in a MMO for that feature, it's a globally reknown fact by everyone. "Hey, remember when we clicked on that button and were totally stealth for as long as we wanted ? That was the good old time", or "hey, remember when you get pulled by three stealthers on daoc with your solo visible or added by 2 who waited you to start 1vs1 before attacking after your purge is down ? Oh, that was the best time ever".

Oh, well, it's exactly the opposite to be honnest, almost everybody spits on daoc's stealth conception, and that's normal, because it's a failed and lazy work.

And you're such a "intelligent" player that you forgot to mention the only real advantage of stealthers for RvR (something with the big buildings in the big zone, you know...), instead you went to elusive BS, almost contradicting yourself :

1 : replying "Assassins and archers, to a lesser extent, do serve a purpose in RvR" to someone who says assassins (not archer) lack a real role in RvR and are just done for ego/rp farming in 1vs1.
2 : giving that role "and places him instead in a 1v1 bracket that assassins and archers excel in". Ok, so as i said, no more RvR, dominating 1vs1 then. Well well well... What an argument.

Let's resume : assassins are done to dominate 1vs1 (and adding by extension, privilege of infinite stealth in the style of daoc, you know), therefore they have a role to play in RvR, because 1vs1 matters in RvR.

Ok. It would be so easy to give them a place in 8vs8 and more, but no, Mythic had better things to do, like... I... Have no example right now, but i'm sure they had better things to do. Right ?
Wed 3 Apr 2019 2:23 AM by ughsmash
Leandrys wrote:
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:09 AM
Sure, stealth in daoc is by far the best way ever implemented in a MMO for that feature, it's a globally reknown fact by everyone. "Hey, remember when we clicked on that button and were totally stealth for as long as we wanted ? That was the good old time", or "hey, remember when you get pulled by three stealthers on daoc with your solo visible or added by 2 who waited you to start 1vs1 before attacking after your purge is down ? Oh, that was the best time ever".

Oh, well, it's exactly the opposite to be honnest, almost everybody spits on daoc's stealth conception, and that's normal, because it's a failed and lazy work.

And you're such a "intelligent" player that you forgot to mention the only real advantage of stealthers for RvR (something with the big buildings in the big zone, you know...), instead you went to elusive BS, almost contradicting yourself :

1 : replying "Assassins and archers, to a lesser extent, do serve a purpose in RvR" to someone who says assassins (not archer) lack a real role in RvR and are just done for ego/rp farming in 1vs1.
2 : giving that role "and places him instead in a 1v1 bracket that assassins and archers excel in". Ok, so as i said, no more RvR, dominating 1vs1 then. Well well well... What an argument.

Let's resume : assassins are done to dominate 1vs1 (and adding by extension, privilege of infinite stealth in the style of daoc, you know), therefore they have a role to play in RvR, because 1vs1 matters in RvR.

Ok. It would be so easy to give them a place in 8vs8 and more, but no, Mythic had better things to do, like... I... Have no example right now, but i'm sure they had better things to do. Right ?

So much venom in your post yikes.

I will tell you why I like stealth. I do understand it is just my opinion as you have yours as well.

Stealth is great in this game because it allows you to play solo. I don't have to sit around and wait for a great 8v8 comp to be set up so we can start having a good time. How I do in the RvR zones is completely dependent on how well I play. I can play at my own pace. I can step away form the keyboard without being gunned down by radar.

Stealther gameplay lets you enjoy the best combat system in the game fully. I get to do Reactionals and positionals and keep going back to the drawing board if a strategy doesn't work for self improvement.

When I play melee in 8v8 it is really only positionals you get to use and you have to tailor all of your RA's around crowd control which by and large is less enjoyable for me.

Anyhow I don't think the stealth in this game is anything to dump on, because it essentially adds another world to the gameplay.
Wed 3 Apr 2019 1:15 PM by Leandrys
ughsmash wrote:
Wed 3 Apr 2019 2:23 AM
Stealth is great in this game because it allows you to play solo.

Boom. I see we agree.
Thu 4 Apr 2019 9:08 AM by Dariussdars
Hard to play solo as a Mid stealther when Albs routinely run stealth groups/zergs.

Eventually they aren't going to find anyone else to kill 5 on 1 though.
Thu 4 Apr 2019 9:49 AM by waffel
Dariussdars wrote:
Thu 4 Apr 2019 9:08 AM
Hard to play solo as a Mid stealther when Albs routinely run stealth groups/zergs.

Eventually they aren't going to find anyone else to kill 5 on 1 though.

“I went to the task zone MG/PK, where every other stealther goes, and died to multiple stealthers”
Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:06 PM by qq6
We keep repeating the same thing over and over, and people just, dont get it...
Find other places to hunt, no1 is making you go to the stealther hot spots, if you are solo, even if you win 100% of the fights vs other stealthers (1v1), its stupid to go to these areas, there will always be people who group up, simply because its easier / more fun to kill more in a group.

Plenty of high traffic areas around, and definitely not all of them are camped by groups. hf
Also, dont be discouraged if you get killed as a solo, at the end of the day, its your choice to play that way in a group centered game.
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:52 PM by Bobbahunter
It's getting to those gank spots that's the problem! Remove mile gate?
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:10 PM by Snakejuice
!. give back camo
2. buff or remake BC in hunter skill tree (cus it sucks donkeyballs)
3. atm theres no point going higher then 35-40 archer. make it worth having 50 aka sniping specc.
Thu 4 Apr 2019 8:51 PM by doflynn
Snakejuice wrote:
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:10 PM
!. give back camo
2. buff or remake BC in hunter skill tree (cus it sucks donkeyballs)
3. atm theres no point going higher then 35-40 archer. make it worth having 50 aka sniping specc.

Can agree to this, maybe tie 50 bow to a small bonus to detection or something.
Thu 4 Apr 2019 8:58 PM by Ceen
Snakejuice wrote:
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:10 PM
!. give back camo
2. buff or remake BC in hunter skill tree (cus it sucks donkeyballs)
3. atm theres no point going higher then 35-40 archer. make it worth having 50 aka sniping specc.
Any chatlogs or just forum gossip?
Thu 4 Apr 2019 9:01 PM by Dariussdars
waffel wrote:
Thu 4 Apr 2019 9:49 AM
Dariussdars wrote:
Thu 4 Apr 2019 9:08 AM
Hard to play solo as a Mid stealther when Albs routinely run stealth groups/zergs.

Eventually they aren't going to find anyone else to kill 5 on 1 though.

“I went to the task zone MG/PK, where every other stealther goes, and died to multiple stealthers”

This is in Uppland, at any given time, task zone or not.

Perhaps actually know what you are commenting on before spouting off next time? Derp!
Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:32 AM by waffel
Lol there isn’t Alb stealth zergs in Uppland, what are you smoking? I spend almost all my time in Uppland solo ripping into yellow levelers and anyone running solo and the most I’ve ever seen was a minstrel and MAYBE an infil grouped.
Fri 5 Apr 2019 5:52 AM by AngelRose
qq6 wrote:
Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:06 PM
We keep repeating the same thing over and over, and people just, dont get it...
Find other places to hunt, no1 is making you go to the stealther hot spots, if you are solo, even if you win 100% of the fights vs other stealthers (1v1), its stupid to go to these areas, there will always be people who group up, simply because its easier / more fun to kill more in a group.

Plenty of high traffic areas around, and definitely not all of them are camped by groups. hf
Also, dont be discouraged if you get killed as a solo, at the end of the day, its your choice to play that way in a group centered game.

yadda yadda yadda /yawn - this is true for all classes that solo. jfc

Nothing you just posted addresses the issues of archery. good job! Keep repeating the same crap...it is clearly working.
Fri 5 Apr 2019 5:55 AM by qq6
Whats the "problem" with archery? Dmg is alright, only problem i see is no bubble piercing.
I keep repeating myself, cos the people arent saying anything but, the "i got killed by others"
Fri 5 Apr 2019 5:57 AM by AngelRose
qq6 wrote:
Fri 5 Apr 2019 5:55 AM
Whats the "problem" with archery? Dmg is alright, only problem i see is no bubble piercing.

I take it you post,, and don't bother with reading all the other posts that have broken down the issue. Interesting choice
Fri 5 Apr 2019 6:06 AM by qq6
lol ok, go personal. My last post (the one you quoted) was directed at the post above, of a person having a personal problem running into "stealthers". I asnt replying to any1 else.
Now i asked, whats the problem, and all you do, is say i cannot read the whole thread.... I tried to help the other person, who had a problem i identified as having nothing to do with archery itself. Stop bs posting, dont turn it into another "sb's need a boost 29 pages of nothing"
Fri 5 Apr 2019 12:16 PM by woody
waffel wrote:
Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:32 AM
Lol there isn’t Alb stealth zergs in Uppland, what are you smoking? I spend almost all my time in Uppland solo ripping into yellow levelers and anyone running solo and the most I’ve ever seen was a minstrel and MAYBE an infil grouped.

Maybe not at your playtime, but this is certainly the case in NA times. Regularly find 3-5 alb stealthers on the road to fens from SF.
Fri 5 Apr 2019 2:42 PM by Snakejuice
Ceen wrote:
Thu 4 Apr 2019 8:58 PM
Snakejuice wrote:
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:10 PM
!. give back camo
2. buff or remake BC in hunter skill tree (cus it sucks donkeyballs)
3. atm theres no point going higher then 35-40 archer. make it worth having 50 aka sniping specc.
Any chatlogs or just forum gossip?


What are you on about?!
Mon 8 Apr 2019 5:02 AM by Sindralor
Give archers a lvl 47 shot that crashes the opponent to desktop for 2.5 seconds.
Make it a blue arrow with a .exe has stopped working sound.
Archers fixed, no need to thank me.
Mon 8 Apr 2019 2:27 PM by DinoTriz
    Add Penetrating Arrow 3 at 45 Bow

    Increase the chance percentage of all Penetrating Arrow levels

    Include self-casted bladeturn to Penetrating Arrow levels

      Maybe reduce damage when you penetrate bubble (as compromise)?

      Increase scaling of Bow damage

      Give Camouflage

      Hunter/Ranger Speed Buff purges movement impairing effects, but cooldown increases to 15 min instead of current 10 min.
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:17 PM by Khogor
Is there any ..SB /NS /Infi out there who "fears" an archer ? Ore are they more ore less free rp ? Top seems to be Ranger atm ..Scout and Hunter chare 2nd place ?.....My 2 Cents ...detecting Rang 1:1 with Assasins .....so more Player reaction. Detection is a 45degree angel in front ? Why not ...get Pa'd if youre not paying atention ...ore step aside and draw Bow ...ok with that . Litle Buff in Bow Dam ....if i make it out of melee ore see an unstealthed Asassin I'd like to be a threat and now just an Arrow saying "Face for free RP" . Ore perhaps the immunity Buff against Poison ? Lets make it melee DW against Shield ...so on ...and not a Venom debuffing instand more "Dam" as i do with a normal Shot. Timer 10-15 Mins ..same as Asassin without purge ...choose your fights...
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:42 PM by Sepplord
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers
stealth-openers alone do not warrant missing out on a fullrange capable dmgline

i agree that the bowspecc has problems and that it feels bad for archerclasses to not really have reasons to spec high archery...but equalizing them assassins while also having their ranged capabilities is unreasonable, yet what many people here propose with their changes
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:56 PM by cere2
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers
stealth-openers alone do not warrant missing out on a fullrange capable dmgline

i agree that the bowspecc has problems and that it feels bad for archerclasses to not really have reasons to spec high archery...but equalizing them assassins while also having their ranged capabilities is unreasonable, yet what many people here propose with their changes

You have got to be kidding. So making assassins and archers detection range both at 250 instead of 125/250 would make all sin's want to be archers.
Have you even played Daoc?
I mean that's the most laughable quote I have read so far.
So archers "might" have a "chance" to avoid PA's....That's it! Assassin's broken! No one will play sin's anymore....ffs the irony.
Mon 8 Apr 2019 4:12 PM by Leandrys
It's just standard ASN player's whining on forum, do not even take care, no matters how OP/dominant they were at any stage of live servers, these guys always came to whine about how unplayable their class would become if you'd touch anything to it. In their mind, everything has to be easy food, just remember the whinestorm when they "nerfed" the weapon switch combined to dot poison, unplayable, useless class, omg so broken.

Well, i've seen more desolated classes in the history of this game than phoenix's asn like, i must confess.
Mon 8 Apr 2019 9:23 PM by Sepplord
cere2 wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:56 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers
stealth-openers alone do not warrant missing out on a fullrange capable dmgline

i agree that the bowspecc has problems and that it feels bad for archerclasses to not really have reasons to spec high archery...but equalizing them assassins while also having their ranged capabilities is unreasonable, yet what many people here propose with their changes

You have got to be kidding. So making assassins and archers detection range both at 250 instead of 125/250 would make all sin's want to be archers.
Have you even played Daoc?
I mean that's the most laughable quote I have read so far.
So archers "might" have a "chance" to avoid PA's....That's it! Assassin's broken! No one will play sin's anymore....ffs the irony.

No, equalizing only the detection range would not do that, where did i say that?. It is not the most laughable Quote you have read so far, since you have just proven that you did not read it

Reading must be so much harder than playing the game, considering the amount of fails


It's also ironic how 2 archers Dodge a valid question and default to lowlevel strategies to avoid actually Thinking about an argument that was made. One misrepresenting by omitting half of my argument, the other going ad hominem with baseless lies that could have easily been avoided with a 5minute research. It's not like it is hard to find something attackable in post-history...but no with your precisionskills you managed to pick the assassin-nerf that i not only welcomed but advocated for
Mon 8 Apr 2019 9:44 PM by cere2
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 9:23 PM
cere2 wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:56 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers
stealth-openers alone do not warrant missing out on a fullrange capable dmgline

i agree that the bowspecc has problems and that it feels bad for archerclasses to not really have reasons to spec high archery...but equalizing them assassins while also having their ranged capabilities is unreasonable, yet what many people here propose with their changes

You have got to be kidding. So making assassins and archers detection range both at 250 instead of 125/250 would make all sin's want to be archers.
Have you even played Daoc?
I mean that's the most laughable quote I have read so far.
So archers "might" have a "chance" to avoid PA's....That's it! Assassin's broken! No one will play sin's anymore....ffs the irony.

No, equalizing only the detection range would not do that, where did i say that?. It is not the most laughable Quote you have read so far, since you have just proven that you did not read it

Reading must be so much harder than playing the game, considering the amount of fails


It's also ironic how 2 archers Dodge a valid question and default to lowlevel strategies to avoid actually Thinking about an argument that was made. One misrepresenting by omitting half of my argument, the other going ad hominem with baseless lies that could have easily been avoided with a 5minute research. It's not like it is hard to find something attackable in post-history...but no with your precisionskills you managed to pick the assassin-nerf that i not only welcomed but advocated for

I did read your post, perhaps you are not versed in getting a point across in text.

"i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers"

Is that not what you wrote? If that is indeed what you wrote...which looks to me like it is, exactly what meaning did you have by saying that?
Because I said, oh...if both had 250 detection range...you said "similar" .....than assassins would be trash and no one would play them.
Which is the reason I said its the most laughable point I've seen someone try to make.

If assassin's need the crutch of PA in order to win vs archers then just say that. If they can win without landing a PA every battle then you shouldn't have an issue with same detection range, right?
Mon 8 Apr 2019 10:01 PM by florin
If you don’t pa a melee ranger, you’re not winning if he has purge/ip/heal charge/ heal pot up. I’ve had to kill some twice and they do the same or more damage when looking at armor. So ya - luri bow rangers are snacks - Shar melee rangers mignt as well be blademasters
Mon 8 Apr 2019 11:00 PM by waffel
Assassins should be excited for archers to get a buff to the bow line when speccing high bow.

More reason to spec bow, less points spent in melee, easier for assassins.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:34 AM by Sepplord
cere2 wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 9:44 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 9:23 PM
cere2 wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 3:56 PM
You have got to be kidding. So making assassins and archers detection range both at 250 instead of 125/250 would make all sin's want to be archers.
Have you even played Daoc?
I mean that's the most laughable quote I have read so far.
So archers "might" have a "chance" to avoid PA's....That's it! Assassin's broken! No one will play sin's anymore....ffs the irony.

No, equalizing only the detection range would not do that, where did i say that?. It is not the most laughable Quote you have read so far, since you have just proven that you did not read it

Reading must be so much harder than playing the game, considering the amount of fails


It's also ironic how 2 archers Dodge a valid question and default to lowlevel strategies to avoid actually Thinking about an argument that was made. One misrepresenting by omitting half of my argument, the other going ad hominem with baseless lies that could have easily been avoided with a 5minute research. It's not like it is hard to find something attackable in post-history...but no with your precisionskills you managed to pick the assassin-nerf that i not only welcomed but advocated for

I did read your post, perhaps you are not versed in getting a point across in text.

"i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers"

Is that not what you wrote? If that is indeed what you wrote...which looks to me like it is, exactly what meaning did you have by saying that?
Because I said, oh...if both had 250 detection range...you said "similar" .....than assassins would be trash and no one would play them.
Which is the reason I said its the most laughable point I've seen someone try to make.

If assassin's need the crutch of PA in order to win vs archers then just say that. If they can win without landing a PA every battle then you shouldn't have an issue with same detection range, right?

you claim you carefully read the comment, but you even quote the part where the word "and" is used, but reply as if the word "or" was used...
seriously dude, you need to stop jumping down everyones throat just because they didn't immediatly praise you and your arguments. Nothing has ever come from that, and even if you had a point and my argument was flawed, by behaving like an asshole you are increasing the cahnces of me just doubling down out of spite. It's not the case here (i feel like i have to spell that out or it will get misinterpreted again).

Seeing in your sig how you are rerolling from luri ranger to midgard and now back to sharranger is showing that you are simply chasing something OP while advocating for buffs for the same thing in the meantime, regardless of sense if that is needed. You want a character that is on par in melee while also having great ranged-dmg...and the ranger already offers that, but for you it is still not enough. You want to have the cake and eat it too.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 1:54 PM by Horus
florin wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 10:01 PM
If you don’t pa a melee ranger, you’re not winning if he has purge/ip/heal charge/ heal pot up. I’ve had to kill some twice and they do the same or more damage when looking at armor. So ya - luri bow rangers are snacks - Shar melee rangers mignt as well be blademasters

I think you've stumbled into the core of the issue right here. The discrepancy between even a hybrid keen ranger vs a shar/celt melee is like night a day. For one thing melee ranger is prob going to be blades which has a large damage advantage against SBs. and is neutral against Infilts. Where as the keen prototypical ranger is probably going to go Thrust which is a terrible dmg choice to use against SBs and Infilts.

I have both a melee celt ranger and a keen hybrid. I can see how at higher RR a melee celt/shar with all melee RAs could hold there own against many SBs/Infilts...
However all things being equal...with close to the same RR and all toys up, a SB/Infilt will or should win every time..or at least not lose. You don't need to perf to keep switching out weapons and venoms. SBs/Iniflts have like a 30% evade rate where as Rangers are more like 13. You can survive longer as a melee ranger but you will never beat and equal opponent unless they don't know what they are doing or have an exceedingly bad run in RNG. As a high RR melee ranger, you can beat lower RR SBs/Infilts with all you toys up...but that is not really point of the convo here is it? Of course if you dominate someone in RR you can win....

Conversely, a high RR bow spec keen pierce ranger will get destroyed by a low RR SB/Infilt even without perf. It is not even close. So when talking about needs, it best to compare apples to apples...not "well my RR3 SB got beat down so close to death by a RR 7 shar ranger after he hit purge, IP, and his heal pots that I had to hit vanish. Therefore, Rangers are fine".

This is about bow damage. Archers want to be archers, not 2nd rate melee toons relegated to grinding/zerg surfing out realm ranks just to be competitive against lower RR opponents solo. Also survive-ability. It makes zero sense to give assassins a detection range advantage against archers. I would argue archers should have the detection range bonus. That would make more sense in real world RvR..in the least they should be equal.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:20 PM by cere2
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:34 AM
cere2 wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 9:44 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 9:23 PM
No, equalizing only the detection range would not do that, where did i say that?. It is not the most laughable Quote you have read so far, since you have just proven that you did not read it

Reading must be so much harder than playing the game, considering the amount of fails


It's also ironic how 2 archers Dodge a valid question and default to lowlevel strategies to avoid actually Thinking about an argument that was made. One misrepresenting by omitting half of my argument, the other going ad hominem with baseless lies that could have easily been avoided with a 5minute research. It's not like it is hard to find something attackable in post-history...but no with your precisionskills you managed to pick the assassin-nerf that i not only welcomed but advocated for

I did read your post, perhaps you are not versed in getting a point across in text.

"i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers"

Is that not what you wrote? If that is indeed what you wrote...which looks to me like it is, exactly what meaning did you have by saying that?
Because I said, oh...if both had 250 detection range...you said "similar" .....than assassins would be trash and no one would play them.
Which is the reason I said its the most laughable point I've seen someone try to make.

If assassin's need the crutch of PA in order to win vs archers then just say that. If they can win without landing a PA every battle then you shouldn't have an issue with same detection range, right?

you claim you carefully read the comment, but you even quote the part where the word "and" is used, but reply as if the word "or" was used...
seriously dude, you need to stop jumping down everyones throat just because they didn't immediatly praise you and your arguments. Nothing has ever come from that, and even if you had a point and my argument was flawed, by behaving like an asshole you are increasing the cahnces of me just doubling down out of spite. It's not the case here (i feel like i have to spell that out or it will get misinterpreted again).

Seeing in your sig how you are rerolling from luri ranger to midgard and now back to sharranger is showing that you are simply chasing something OP while advocating for buffs for the same thing in the meantime, regardless of sense if that is needed. You want a character that is on par in melee while also having great ranged-dmg...and the ranger already offers that, but for you it is still not enough. You want to have the cake and eat it too.

Gotta love when people resort to name calling when they can't represent their own point.
So I'm now an A-hole because you think Rangers are OP. Now I know the reason behind what you posted, need the crutch.
Honestly I could care less if you agree with me or not, I was just pointing out the absurdity of your post....you said "and" instead of "or" .... that's why it was misunderstood?
Sorry not buying a bridge in the desert today, but thanks anyhow.
Now your calling having stealth detection range for both at 250 a buff to rangers.
A buff would be me asking for a 7 sec off evade stun, how about PD? Dodger? ...or higher bow damage past 35...none of which I have asked for.
But call it what you want, like I said it seems assassin's need this crutch so yeah I'm making one of two "races" that give more strength and training melee so I can be somewhat competitive too.
I would go back to my Luri and try to utilize bow...you know like an archer should use? But with detection the way it is now, we are almost always forced to go straight up melee.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:23 PM by cere2
Horus wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 1:54 PM
florin wrote:
Mon 8 Apr 2019 10:01 PM
If you don’t pa a melee ranger, you’re not winning if he has purge/ip/heal charge/ heal pot up. I’ve had to kill some twice and they do the same or more damage when looking at armor. So ya - luri bow rangers are snacks - Shar melee rangers mignt as well be blademasters

I think you've stumbled into the core of the issue right here. The discrepancy between even a hybrid keen ranger vs a shar/celt melee is like night a day. For one thing melee ranger is prob going to be blades which has a large damage advantage against SBs. and is neutral against Infilts. Where as the keen prototypical ranger is probably going to go Thrust which is a terrible dmg choice to use against SBs and Infilts.

I have both a melee celt ranger and a keen hybrid. I can see how at higher RR a melee celt/shar with all melee RAs could hold there own against many SBs/Infilts...
However all things being equal...with close to the same RR and all toys up, a SB/Infilt will or should win every time..or at least not lose. You don't need to perf to keep switching out weapons and venoms. SBs/Iniflts have like a 30% evade rate where as Rangers are more like 13. You can survive longer as a melee ranger but you will never beat and equal opponent unless they don't know what they are doing or have an exceedingly bad run in RNG. As a high RR melee ranger, you can beat lower RR SBs/Infilts with all you toys up...but that is not really point of the convo here is it? Of course if you dominate someone in RR you can win....

Conversely, a high RR bow spec keen pierce ranger will get destroyed by a low RR SB/Infilt even without perf. It is not even close. So when talking about needs, it best to compare apples to apples...not "well my RR3 SB got beat down so close to death by a RR 7 shar ranger after he hit purge, IP, and his heal pots that I had to hit vanish. Therefore, Rangers are fine".

This is about bow damage. Archers want to be archers, not 2nd rate melee toons relegated to grinding/zerg surfing out realm ranks just to be competitive against lower RR opponents solo. Also survive-ability. It makes zero sense to give assassins a detection range advantage against archers. I would argue archers should have the detection range bonus. That would make more sense in real world RvR..in the least they should be equal.

Someone gets it! Well said Horus.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:40 PM by Sepplord
cere2 wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:20 PM
Gotta love when people resort to name calling when they can't represent their own point.
So I'm now an A-hole because you think Rangers are OP. Now I know the reason behind what you posted, need the crutch.
Honestly I could care less if you agree with me or not, I was just pointing out the absurdity of your post....you said "and" instead of "or" .... that's why it was misunderstood?
Sorry not buying a bridge in the desert today, but thanks anyhow.
Now your calling having stealth detection range for both at 250 a buff to rangers.
A buff would be me asking for a 7 sec off evade stun, how about PD? Dodger? ...or higher bow damage past 35...none of which I have asked for.
But call it what you want, like I said it seems assassin's need this crutch so yeah I'm making one of two "races" that give more strength and training melee so I can be somewhat competitive too.
I would go back to my Luri and try to utilize bow...you know like an archer should use? But with detection the way it is now, we are almost always forced to go straight up melee.

Dude calm down, i get you are doubling down on your point. but you are making a fool out of yourself really hard.

Just because there are even bigger buffs to ask for doesn't mean that asking for a bigger detection range against enemies is not also a buff. How can you claim asking for more detection range is not a buff (regardless if that buff is warranted or not...simply stating THATS NOT ASKING FOR A BUFF is mindboggling)?
Are you saying it is a nerf? Does it change nothing at all (why are you asking for it then)?

Please stop insulting my ability to present a point, you have quoted me yourself but i feel to stress this:
my comment:
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers

replace "and" with "or"
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection or comparable melee-capabilities to archers

Two completely different statements, and if you cannot see that...then that is not due to my incapability to get my point accross.
It's almost as if you are intentionally sabotaging this discussion so the archer-community looks like idiots (this part isn't about the validity of the demands anymore, btw , this is about how you react to counterpoints and presentation of your arguments in general)
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:55 PM by cere2
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:40 PM
cere2 wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:20 PM
Gotta love when people resort to name calling when they can't represent their own point.
So I'm now an A-hole because you think Rangers are OP. Now I know the reason behind what you posted, need the crutch.
Honestly I could care less if you agree with me or not, I was just pointing out the absurdity of your post....you said "and" instead of "or" .... that's why it was misunderstood?
Sorry not buying a bridge in the desert today, but thanks anyhow.
Now your calling having stealth detection range for both at 250 a buff to rangers.
A buff would be me asking for a 7 sec off evade stun, how about PD? Dodger? ...or higher bow damage past 35...none of which I have asked for.
But call it what you want, like I said it seems assassin's need this crutch so yeah I'm making one of two "races" that give more strength and training melee so I can be somewhat competitive too.
I would go back to my Luri and try to utilize bow...you know like an archer should use? But with detection the way it is now, we are almost always forced to go straight up melee.

Dude calm down, i get you are doubling down on your point. but you are making a fool out of yourself really hard.

Just because there are even bigger buffs to ask for doesn't mean that asking for a bigger detection range against enemies is not also a buff. How can you claim asking for more detection range is not a buff (regardless if that buff is warranted or not...simply stating THATS NOT ASKING FOR A BUFF is mindboggling)?
Are you saying it is a nerf? Does it change nothing at all (why are you asking for it then)?

Please stop insulting my ability to present a point, you have quoted me yourself but i feel to stress this:
my comment:
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection and comparable melee-capabilities to archers

replace "and" with "or"
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection or comparable melee-capabilities to archers

Two completely different statements, and if you cannot see that...then that is not due to my incapability to get my point accross.
It's almost as if you are intentionally sabotaging this discussion so the archer-community looks like idiots (this part isn't about the validity of the demands anymore, btw , this is about how you react to counterpoints and presentation of your arguments in general)

Yet still you come here and throw insults.
I guess we should say what archers lost in Phoenix so maybe you understand the issue a bit. Archers lost dodger, Physical defense, and MOS an an RA.
So when they did this, yes it was nerf after nerf after nerf. Then, they customly made detection range different for Sin/Archer/Minstrel. This is also a nerf. Would reverting a nerf be a buff? Perhaps in some peoples mind yes. Some nerfs I agree were warranted, others not at all.

Now to your quote.
replace "and" with "or"
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection or comparable melee-capabilities to archers

#1 Why would anyone play an assassin "IF" they get similar detection range to archers.
#2 Why would anyone play an assassin "IF" they get comparable melee-capabilities to archers.

I broke this up in to (2) seperate lines so you can read what you wrote.

So #1....So you believe assassins would quit if archers had similar detection range as they do? Like I said, do you even play this game?
So #2....So assassin's don't get comparible melee-capabilities to archers? Uhh they do so like I said, one of the most laughable quotes thus far.

Either way, you can rebut this with your next post, fact of the matter is, you obviously feel that Sin's need the added detection range in order to battle against an archer class. Sorry you feel that way, but to each their own.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 3:26 PM by Sepplord
cere2 wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:55 PM
Now to your quote.
replace "and" with "or"
i still fail to see why anyone would play an assassin if they get similar detection or comparable melee-capabilities to archers

#1 Why would anyone play an assassin "IF" they get similar detection range to archers.
#2 Why would anyone play an assassin "IF" they get comparable melee-capabilities to archers.

I broke this up in to (2) seperate lines so you can read what you wrote.

So #1....So you believe assassins would quit if archers had similar detection range as they do? Like I said, do you even play this game?
So #2....So assassin's don't get comparible melee-capabilities to archers? Uhh they do so like I said, one of the most laughable quotes thus far.

Either way, you can rebut this with your next post, fact of the matter is, you obviously feel that Sin's need the added detection range in order to battle against an archer class. Sorry you feel that way, but to each their own.

That's not my quote though...that is my quote, after replacing the "and" with an "or". That was done to literally spell the difference out for you, since you missed it the first 2times already. Third time's a charm i thought...but even when both sentences were spelled out directly beneath each other it didnt work

i am quite convinced that you must be trolling now...but i won't let people misquote me, without setting the facts straight.



The first part of your post is still moving the goal posts...i really don't get why you keep arguing to me that archers should get a buff. I never said they shouldn't...
Tue 9 Apr 2019 3:50 PM by cere2
You are a lost cause dude. Point is either way you read it, your info is completely wrong.

If archers get same detection range as assassins, assassin will not stop playing assassin's. Obviously you never played Live.

Archers and assassin's have almost the same and in some cases the same damage in melee when it comes to baseline styles like thrust/pierce/blades etc. So wtf are you talking about?

Sorry bud you made a laughable comment and are still trying to represent that it was misunderstood.

Not omitting half your argument. Both arguments are laughable. I laugh at them both, because neither were thought out at all.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 4:06 PM by djegu
I honestly don't understand people that say archer need more bow damage, on a daily basis i get hit by scout in the 600-800 area.
Although I understand that speccing higher than 35 in bow should be rewarding, for example going through the bubble of a caster.
Also putting them to the same detection range as sins won't affect sins much, we will still find them when they shoot someone.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 6:05 PM by semadin
djegu wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 4:06 PM
I honestly don't understand people that say archer need more bow damage, on a daily basis i get hit by scout in the 600-800 area.
Although I understand that speccing higher than 35 in bow should be rewarding, for example going through the bubble of a caster.
Also putting them to the same detection range as sins won't affect sins much, we will still find them when they shoot someone.

Well, opening against someone who is temped, and buff potted, one of two things will happen about 70% of the time:

The most common situation is that they will just run away. Sure my crit shot will open for ~600ish (ranger, 52 mod bow, damage is virtually the same at 62...maybe would be 610 instead), and subsequent shots will hit for 300, but I'll get maybe 3 total shots in before they are out of range, then they will quickly heal up. 1 out of 10 times I can speed burst after them and finish it off, but usually they get far enough away to heal up, or if I burst after them they recover enough to smash me in melee, or I just get run over by someone else, because I revealed myself in order to do middling health pool damage while my enemy got away.

I have no ability to control my enemy while shooting them. So running away very frequently just cancels my entire bow line.

The above also doesn't take into consideration opposition that has charges, ablatives, heal procs, or evades/blocks any of my arrows. I had a "fight" yesterday where I caught an infil jumping an AFK level 50 BM (at a flag). I shot this guy 5 times, all normal shots for about 330. He evaded one. Didn't die. Ran out of range at 50% HP. I still did probably 1400-1500 damage with procs and damage add and he was at 50% hp. I didn't run after because he would have just slaughtered me.

That brings up the second most common scenario which is they run towards me after I start shooting. Taking the above scenario as an example, what would happen if he ran at me? let's be generous and say I got the crit shot opening (so it was 1 on 1). Because he closed distance, I would get at least one less shot (realistically, 2 less shots). Let's also be generous and say no evades, so I've done the same amount of damage. Well now I'm fighting an infiltrator starting at 50% HP. Unless I'm a shar/celt melee ranger (and doing about 20% less bow damage btw), I'm going to be smashed without getting lucky.

Throw in an evade or a block (this happens quite a bit tbh) and I've got nothing.


The only real scenario where I, as an archer, can take someone down entirely by bow and then stealth away, is if they are preoccupied, or un-temped/unprepared/startled/etc (whereas an assassin can jump just about anyone, lock them down during their initial attack, have a variety of tools to deal with a variety of situations, and then get away).

Every now and then I get a good fight in where I open with crit, and a couple normal shots and then try to fight someone down from their 30%. I still have to go through that plus IP most of the time, so it's quite a hell of a lot to handle.

So on a blank sheet of paper, bow damage looks fine. In practical terms, it's barely serviceable. This is why you see so many melee rangers out there, because unless you are looking to leech or pick off other fights, you aren't getting anywhere.

While I do love taking down stragglers, and catching people off guard, it certainly doesn't mean the class is balanced, or that archery is ok.

If archers had good group utility, this would be a different discussion. We wouldn't be talking about an explicitly solo/smallman class that has problems soloing/smallmaning with their primary class defining ability, we'd be talking about any other class that can group up trying to also solo.


Personally I think the core of the problem is that everyone is running around buffed, solo or not - regardless of the fact that these aren't as good as a buffer's buffs, they still distort the game. All the arguments of how much damage classes do, how much survivability they have on their own, these are all warped incredibly by the level of self buffage that is available. On top of that, there's a clear hierarchy of who is able to self buff more, depending on level of investment (*but no, it's not buffbots, because you don't have a second account).

The flip side of the scenarios I presented above are times when I've run into untemped, unbuffed - or very minimally self buffed - individuals. I jumped a rr2 infil yesterday from melee (pretty much my only option, if I'm running around stealthed and I see a stealthed enemy, is to jump in melee, I can't run away). After running through my heal pot, plus purge and IP, I managed to kill him with 20% hp left (in this scenario, I'm running 44 pierce, 24 cd, +14 to both). So yes, I a ranger with a high level of melee spec, beat a full health infil toe to toe...barely, after using every possible charge and timer I had on me.

That doesn't sound like good game balance. As a luri ranger, yes I should get slaughtered if caught toe to toe melee like that (or at least, be forced to and have a way to run away). But if I catch you with my bow (which is a lot harder to do), you should be just as screwed. And that isn't remotely the case.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 6:22 PM by Amp_Phetamine
waffel wrote:
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:28 PM
Assassins: 5 point vanish to reset any fight and escape any death
Minstrels: 5 point SoS to reset any fight and escape any death
Archers: ???

The last thing this server needs is escape tools. Look at the crap show Live to see how fun it is dealing with: Mezz poison, perma snare poison, vanish, blur, phase shift, zephyr, sos, insta stun, combat snares/kite, all 3 archer rr5's prior to the revamp - that may be all I can think of.

(I included all rogue classes)

Besides - Vanish and SoS are not these ultimate survival abilities, I've seen PLENTY of assassins vanish poorly and get blap'd and I've seen plenty of toons blow SoS to die 10 seconds later.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 6:24 PM by djegu
I see your point, and you are right, sometimes i can run away from an archer but most of the time, by the time i see the target run to him, i take a slam and i'm done.

Ok now let's say they increase bow damage, what will happen ? Hybrid ranger will be stronger, that's mean they will do good dmg with bow and by the time you reach them in melee you'll have more than half your life taken away, scout with only 4 line of spec will have 50 in bow and still have a slam, hunter already melee beast, will have even more tools to beat your ass up.

The real issue is really the detection range for me, archer should be able to dodge sin if they see one, currently they can't due to the detection range. And make the lvl 45 and 50 bow more valuable, like add a longer distance shoot like longshot or maybe a shoot that can stun you for 3s for example.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 6:58 PM by semadin
djegu wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 6:24 PM
I see your point, and you are right, sometimes i can run away from an archer but most of the time, by the time i see the target run to him, i take a slam and i'm done.

Ok now let's say they increase bow damage, what will happen ? Hybrid ranger will be stronger, that's mean they will do good dmg with bow and by the time you reach them in melee you'll have more than half your life taken away, scout with only 4 line of spec will have 50 in bow and still have a slam, hunter already melee beast, will have even more tools to beat your ass up.

The real issue is really the detection range for me, archer should be able to dodge sin if they see one, currently they can't due to the detection range. And make the lvl 45 and 50 bow more valuable, like add a longer distance shoot like longshot or maybe a shoot that can stun you for 3s for example.

Well this is why spec changes to sniper should be done in a way that forces a drop on melee ability. For ranger/hunter this can be done by a combination of forcing higher bow spec and pf/bc. For Scout, just putting all in high bow...scouts will have the stronger full sniper ability, but aside from slam their melee is atrocious, so that seems pretty fair - yea they can slam and then shoot you, but if you are purge up they are screwed in this scenario. I think this approach will be balanced on the larger viewpoint, while retaining uniqueness on an individual comparison.

As a side note, and I'll keep beating this dead horse to the end of time, I'd love to see the devs run a test some weekend disabling self buff pots/charges in RVR (maybe by opening a level 50 battleground where this isn't possible), just to see what the situation is like if that is the case. If there are balance problems with soloers not being buffed, I think they should be addressed in different ways than adding self buffing capabilities to classes which don't naturally have this. But this can't be figured out in the current iteration.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 7:28 PM by Amp_Phetamine
djegu wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 6:24 PM
I see your point, and you are right, sometimes i can run away from an archer but most of the time, by the time i see the target run to him, i take a slam and i'm done.

Ok now let's say they increase bow damage, what will happen ? Hybrid ranger will be stronger, that's mean they will do good dmg with bow and by the time you reach them in melee you'll have more than half your life taken away, scout with only 4 line of spec will have 50 in bow and still have a slam, hunter already melee beast, will have even more tools to beat your ass up.

The real issue is really the detection range for me, archer should be able to dodge sin if they see one, currently they can't due to the detection range. And make the lvl 45 and 50 bow more valuable, like add a longer distance shoot like longshot or maybe a shoot that can stun you for 3s for example.

From being on the receiving end, bow damage is pretty damn good. Been crit shot for over 800dps by a ranger on my Merc, hurt like a mofo.

The only thing I'd like to see is to make speccing higher then 35 bow worth while. The return margin on dps past 35 is shocking based on the feedback that's been presented. Adding in utility in the bow spec line (such as camouflage @ say 45 bow; among other ideas) would simultaneously give bow archers a reason to invest the points into higher bow while not adding in some unnecessary over powered feature that would need to be nerfed.

Live DAoC got into a lot of trouble with the amount of "escape" and "reset" abilities they implemented over the years.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 7:38 PM by cere2
Amp_Phetamine wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 7:28 PM
djegu wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 6:24 PM
I see your point, and you are right, sometimes i can run away from an archer but most of the time, by the time i see the target run to him, i take a slam and i'm done.

Ok now let's say they increase bow damage, what will happen ? Hybrid ranger will be stronger, that's mean they will do good dmg with bow and by the time you reach them in melee you'll have more than half your life taken away, scout with only 4 line of spec will have 50 in bow and still have a slam, hunter already melee beast, will have even more tools to beat your ass up.

The real issue is really the detection range for me, archer should be able to dodge sin if they see one, currently they can't due to the detection range. And make the lvl 45 and 50 bow more valuable, like add a longer distance shoot like longshot or maybe a shoot that can stun you for 3s for example.

From being on the receiving end, bow damage is pretty damn good. Been crit shot for over 800dps by a ranger on my Merc, hurt like a mofo.

The only thing I'd like to see is to make speccing higher then 35 bow worth while. The return margin on dps past 35 is shocking based on the feedback that's been presented. Adding in utility in the bow spec line (such as camouflage @ say 45 bow; among other ideas) would simultaneously give bow archers a reason to invest the points into higher bow while not adding in some unnecessary over powered feature that would need to be nerfed.

Live DAoC got into a lot of trouble with the amount of "escape" and "reset" abilities they implemented over the years.

Agreed live went too far with escape tools, but I think in order to see archers in general be something to be possibly feared by any class, a few things need to happen. Because right now, most scouts/rangers/hunters are fodder for almost any class in the game.

#1 Yes I have said it 100 times. Detection range same as assassin's, gives archers chance to maybe avoid a PA.

#2 Bow damage is fine as it is, problem I had with my Luri is the constant procs against archery shots that interrupt. If casters were rupted this much by procs it would be a disaster, well...kind of the same goes if you want to use bow. So make procs have range limit? Maybe 750 range or something.

#3 I think Amp and other might be on to something for sniper spec archers. Those who truly just want to use bow. Perhaps an ability like they say at 45 or 50 bow...something like a stun, or perhaps a point blank shot on 15 or 20 sec cd, or maybe a instant 10 sec snare on a 5 min rut. Something that allows them to get a little distance to get some extra shots in.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 8:25 PM by Tool73
counterpart to vanish was archers "True sight", wich was killed by GM`s! just give archers true sight back and rebalance!
Tue 9 Apr 2019 8:29 PM by Riac
Tool73 wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 8:25 PM
counterpart to vanish was archers "True sight", wich was killed by GM`s! just give archers true sight back and rebalance!

aka stealth lore pots.
Wed 10 Apr 2019 3:33 AM by Snakejuice
Any GM that comment on this issue. wonder if i shall scrap my hunter or not. Probely reroll alb and go infil for the better of everything.. /salt
Wed 10 Apr 2019 3:54 AM by qq6
Going to poke the bear, here we go. Are there any active archers rr5+ that have problems with detection range here, like real i cant play problems or is it more of a, "would be cool to have it increased, but not going to change much"?
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:36 PM by dbeattie71
qq6 wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 3:54 AM
Going to poke the bear, here we go. Are there any active archers rr5+ that have problems with detection range here, like real i cant play problems or is it more of a, "would be cool to have it increased, but not going to change much"?

RR5+, still play, don’t really want it increased 😮
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:16 PM by Horus
qq6 wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 3:54 AM
Going to poke the bear, here we go. Are there any active archers rr5+ that have problems with detection range here, like real i cant play problems or is it more of a, "would be cool to have it increased, but not going to change much"?

RR5L6 here
I do. It is poor design to be safer moving at realm speed + endo pot than being able to stealth. Current setup means just food for assassins.

But I suspect once you are RR5+ you've been so conditioned to accept the class faults that you not longer care as much. Kind of like beaten spouse syndrome.

The archetype for an archer more than any other class here on Phoenix, is ridiculously far from its historical DaoC place as a feared ranged killer. If you like the server you just accept that and move on. Just don't expect to be playing an archer as you remember it or as it is on live. Nothing "classic" about it. Due to all the custom changes the class is relegated to being a minor ranged annoyance and RP fodder for stealthers. My poke the bear question would be "Does anyone actually fear archers? When you are moving solo unstealthed do you fear you might get sniped and actually get killed?" Because that is what they are supposed to be able to do. Hunt and kill solos at range. At the moment this can't be done unless the person is AFK, doesn't know how to play, or is already engaged in combat/distracted.
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:33 PM by Tool73
Riac wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 8:29 PM
Tool73 wrote:
Tue 9 Apr 2019 8:25 PM
counterpart to vanish was archers "True sight", wich was killed by GM`s! just give archers true sight back and rebalance!

aka stealth lore pots.

stealth lore dont let u see vanished target, or? true sight did.
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:40 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Horus wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:16 PM
qq6 wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 3:54 AM
Going to poke the bear, here we go. Are there any active archers rr5+ that have problems with detection range here, like real i cant play problems or is it more of a, "would be cool to have it increased, but not going to change much"?

RR5L6 here
I do. It is poor design to be safer moving at realm speed + endo pot than being able to stealth. Current setup means just food for assassins.

But I suspect once you are RR5+ you've been so conditioned to accept the class faults that you not longer care as much. Kind of like beaten spouse syndrome.

The archetype for an archer more than any other class here on Phoenix, is ridiculously far from its historical DaoC place as a feared ranged killer. If you like the server you just accept that and move on. Just don't expect to be playing an archer as you remember it or as it is on live. Nothing "classic" about it. Due to all the custom changes the class is relegated to being a minor ranged annoyance and RP fodder for stealthers. My poke the bear question would be "Does anyone actually fear archers? When you are moving solo unstealthed do you fear you might get sniped and actually get killed?" Because that is what they are supposed to be able to do. Hunt and kill solos at range. At the moment this can't be done unless the person is AFK, doesn't know how to play, or is already engaged in combat/distracted.

My #1 assumption when I get hit by an archer is that there is an assassin waiting to perf anyone that approaches. So in all honesty, no I don't "fear" archers at all, but at the same time I won't allow an archer to kite me, nor should I really fear too many classes in straight melee combat - Mercenary.
Wed 10 Apr 2019 2:38 PM by jelzinga_EU
qq6 wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 3:54 AM
Going to poke the bear, here we go. Are there any active archers rr5+ that have problems with detection range here, like real i cant play problems or is it more of a, "would be cool to have it increased, but not going to change much"?

Only fear the fact that when there is 1 scout, there is more.

On a more serious note: An equal RR (or higher) Ranger can kill me quite easily when he has some luck and/or realm-abilities up. For fighting a scout you need Purge or you're dead, even if the scout is a bit lower RR.

My Shadowblade is RR6 - ymmv
Wed 10 Apr 2019 8:08 PM by Horus
A question....why do archers do fine in Caledonia BG but seem to scale so poorly up to 50? Technically we are all still same level going against each other with the same level gear.
Wed 10 Apr 2019 8:45 PM by semadin
Horus wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 8:08 PM
A question....why do archers do fine in Caledonia BG but seem to scale so poorly up to 50? Technically we are all still same level going against each other with the same level gear.

There's very little investment that can be done into 'being an archer' past level 35 (whereas up to that point, you can put everything into being an archer).

On top of that there's a much higher level of templating and buffage that happens at 50.

Both are challenging to point to specifically in practice (aside from it being clear that you get little benefit in speccing above 35 bow), but they equate to a distorted balance at level 50.
Wed 10 Apr 2019 9:36 PM by Dariussdars
Horus wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 8:08 PM
A question....why do archers do fine in Caledonia BG but seem to scale so poorly up to 50? Technically we are all still same level going against each other with the same level gear.

Probably because speccing bow over 35 does basically nothing as far as damage goes. Archers damage peaks at level 35, and doesn't scale any further.

Weird how there appear to be no changes upcoming whatsoever, and this thread has basically been ignored despite numerous archers stating that something needs fixing.
Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:03 PM by PingGuy
The dev's have stated that they do see a problem. They have various ideas to fix the problem, but can't settle on anything yet. They probably won't say more until they are ready to try something.
Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:29 PM by waffel
Nothing I like more than lining up a crit shot on someone standing around and having it get blocked or (my favorite) evaded.

Wait, what I like more is shooting someone with reverse procs on their armor and getting interrupted for 5 seconds.

The only saving grace for me and that I’m playing a ranger so melee does most of my damage vs solo targets. I can’t imagine playing a hunter or scout and if I had I for SURE would have shelved it very early on.

Honestly I think rangers are in a pretty good spot. But that’s simply because of their melee. The other archers are screwed
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:15 AM by Sepplord
while levelling my hunter i noticed that i am able to line up a critshot and THEN choose/switch the target and it will still be a critshot...
Does that work in PvP too?

Back in SI on my ranger that wasn't the case


(just asking out of interest, not implying that means everything is fine....before cere or similar jumps at me again for simple statements ^^)
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:27 AM by noflex
I’m in the minority here in that my ranger is purely bow spec, I have the most fun as this spec even though it’s very very suboptimal compared to hybrid or melee spec. I know the limits however, so I play conservatively and run away a lot due to crit getting blocked or evaded or popping my stealth.. or like the guy above said a dd reactive proc rupts me.. being pure bow I have no choice but to bail out of situations like this. Something needs to happen for archery dmg or utility past 35 bow and we all know it, the devs know it, but I’m not sure what’s taking so long as surely they could have implemented something by now.

I know quite a few ppl who’ve stopped playing now because nothing has improved
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:38 AM by AngelRose
There are numerous things in this game that make archery subpar.. The armor that procs is def a big annoyance. It is especially damaging to any solo archer who has the audacity to try to solo. Bow damage is fine. Crit shot is fine, but these issues make the scout/hunter miserable to play:

1. horrible stealth detection
2. useless pet (hunter specific)
3. proccing armor
4. archery spec that is useless after level 35
5. crit shot pops archer out of stealth and makes them ez targets

Easy fixes:

1. equalize the stealth detection to 250 for sins and 250 for archers
2. add self buffs to archery that are better then pots/charges. It would give archers a reason to spec in archery
3. Tweak the pet. FFS - its a major aspect of the hunter and the pet is the worst pet on the server. It is easily out run or cc'd out. Give it either speed or a minor cc.
4. decrease the chance to be popped out of stealth by our own shots
Thu 11 Apr 2019 7:56 AM by Sepplord
AngelRose wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:38 AM
2. add self buffs to archery that are better then pots/charges. It would give archers a reason to spec in archery

This sounds horribly OP and even if balance would be really bad gamedesing, considering ranger/hunter already have a selfbuff line, which is weaker than pots.
Giving them buffs stronger than pots would invalidate beastcraft/pathfinding even further

The other changes sound ok individually
Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:19 AM by stinsfire
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 7:56 AM
AngelRose wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:38 AM
2. add self buffs to archery that are better then pots/charges. It would give archers a reason to spec in archery

This sounds horribly OP and even if balance would be really bad gamedesing, considering ranger/hunter already have a selfbuff line, which is weaker than pots.
Giving them buffs stronger than pots would invalidate beastcraft/pathfinding even further

The other changes sound ok individually

As I mentioned in some threads self buffs in BC/PF should be 75 at max just like the thane self buff. Archery should recieve other benefits like rapid fire 2 giving damage bonus and not only a useless endu cost reduction. Maybe put longshot/volley or s.th in archery above lvl 40. Give penetrate arrow increasing chance to pen self-bt or sth and split it into levels. (e.g. 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%)

And again.. why are Devs ignoring the archer classes? They admitted they need to look at it weeks ago, never gave an update, stopped responding to archer threads and ignore any question about archers directly aimed at them. Hello?! You massively buffed thane and we have a buffed earth wizard line, we are trying to make friars viable in group play and Hunter/Scout has been suffering since beta and ranger is only good because he can dual wieldl melee.

Please do something. Make bow above 35 worth speccing into, make BC/PF worth speccing into. How can you be fine with the only viable ARCHER specs being high melee, 27/35 archery, ignoring your class defining magic spec and using 75 d/q charges instead. Hunters just get a the objectively worst pet and a speed shout for dumping hundreds of points into it. And rangers get... a damage add and a speedshout
Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:31 PM by waffel
stinsfire wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:19 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 7:56 AM
AngelRose wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:38 AM
2. add self buffs to archery that are better then pots/charges. It would give archers a reason to spec in archery

This sounds horribly OP and even if balance would be really bad gamedesing, considering ranger/hunter already have a selfbuff line, which is weaker than pots.
Giving them buffs stronger than pots would invalidate beastcraft/pathfinding even further

The other changes sound ok individually

As I mentioned in some threads self buffs in BC/PF should be 75 at max just like the thane self buff. Archery should recieve other benefits like rapid fire 2 giving damage bonus and not only a useless endu cost reduction. Maybe put longshot/volley or s.th in archery above lvl 4. Give penetrate arrow increasing chance to pen self-bt or sth and split it into levels. (e.g. 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%)

And again.. why are Devs ignoring the archer classes? They admitted they need to look it weeks ago, never gave an update, stopped responding to archer threads and ignore any question about archers directly aimed at them. Hello?! You massively buffed thane and we have a buffed earth wizard line, we are trying to make friars viable in group play and Hunter/Scout has been suffering since beta and ranger is only good because he can dual wield melee.

Please do something. Make bow above 35 worth speccing into, make BC/PF worth speccing into. How can you be fine with the only viable ARCHER specs being high melee, 27/35 archery, ignoring your class defining magic spec and using 75 d/q charges instead. Hunters just get a the objectively worst pet and a speed shout for dumping hundreds of points into it. And rangers get... a damage add and a speedshout

Pretty spot on.

I think most everyone agrees that the first and most logical step is to make speccing in bow over 35 worthwhile. There are a variety of ways to do this that can start slow and build from there. An unconventional one I like is removing Longshot from RAs and putting it somewhere 40+ in bow.
Replace the Longshot RA with Point Blank/Quickshot. An uninterruptible/instant bow shot, with a cooldown, that can be used while being melee'd/interrupted. Give it a short range.
Reasoning: Longshot is weak and not deserving of SIX RA points. Point Blank/Quickshot may be too powerful to put in bow spec.

Also, any buffs to Beastcraft/PF need to come with something for Scouts. I'm not sure what or how, but right now I feel scouts have the least amount of toys and are extremely pigeonholed in their spec options. Having never played one, looking at the char plan for 30 seconds is depressing. Let me guess: 35 stealth, 35 bow, 42 shield, rest in Thrust or Blades? Yikes.
Thu 11 Apr 2019 5:39 PM by phixion
Archer are fine, often hit for ludicrous amounts of damage by them.
Thu 11 Apr 2019 5:51 PM by PingGuy
phixion wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 5:39 PM
Archer are fine, often hit for ludicrous amounts of damage by them.

People have said repeatedly in these threads that the damage is fine. It's the uselessness of speccing over 35 Bow and some other things that are hurting them as "Archers." Now, since you are an assassin, why don't you tell us which archers you fear losing to the most currently. This is where you say "melee specced rangers" and we say, that's not what this thread is about.
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:27 PM by Amp_Phetamine
waffel wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:31 PM
Pretty spot on.

I think most everyone agrees that the first and most logical step is to make speccing in bow over 35 worthwhile. There are a variety of ways to do this that can start slow and build from there. An unconventional one I like is removing Longshot from RAs and putting it somewhere 40+ in bow.
Replace the Longshot RA with Point Blank/Quickshot. An uninterruptible/instant bow shot, with a cooldown, that can be used while being melee'd/interrupted. Give it a short range.
Reasoning: Longshot is weak and not deserving of SIX RA points. Point Blank/Quickshot may be too powerful to put in bow spec.

Also, any buffs to Beastcraft/PF need to come with something for Scouts. I'm not sure what or how, but right now I feel scouts have the least amount of toys and are extremely pigeonholed in their spec options. Having never played one, looking at the char plan for 30 seconds is depressing. Let me guess: 35 stealth, 35 bow, 42 shield, rest in Thrust or Blades? Yikes.

Now that's an interesting view point. Place longshot into higher spec bow line (wouldn't/doesn't do crazy damage but would definitely be worthwhile for bow spec archers to obtain) and introduce a PB type RA shot - similar to say Volcanic Pillar (no AoE) but a single target shot that scales off of Crit Shot dps?
Thu 11 Apr 2019 10:09 PM by Horus
Dariussdars wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 9:36 PM
Horus wrote:
Wed 10 Apr 2019 8:08 PM
A question....why do archers do fine in Caledonia BG but seem to scale so poorly up to 50? Technically we are all still same level going against each other with the same level gear.

Probably because speccing bow over 35 does basically nothing as far as damage goes. Archers damage peaks at level 35, and doesn't scale any further.

Weird how there appear to be no changes upcoming whatsoever, and this thread has basically been ignored despite numerous archers stating that something needs fixing.

I think that is it. I do the exact same damage at 50 as I did in Caledonia. I was composite spec 35 then, 52 now. But all my target's HPs and AF have gone up. So my % of their health taken per shot has gone waaay down..even on solo cloth casters....and now I have 311 dex..was quite a bit lower there.
Thu 11 Apr 2019 11:21 PM by cere2
Easy fixes:

1. equalize the stealth detection to 250 for sins and 250 for archers
2. add self buffs to archery that are better then pots/charges. It would give archers a reason to spec in archery
3. Tweak the pet. FFS - its a major aspect of the hunter and the pet is the worst pet on the server. It is easily out run or cc'd out. Give it either speed or a minor cc.
4. decrease the chance to be popped out of stealth by our own shots
[/quote]

#1 Hell yes.
#2 Or, make PF/BC self buffs scale like Thane's. you spec 50 PF/BC its 75 dex/quick 75 Str. PF gets DA, BC gets pet. I have no issue leaving the buff line there, just make it worth someone's time to spec into it.
#3 I agree, though don't go crazy. It's supposed to be like a damage add, help penetration etc. Don't make the pet disease/snare etc like it did in Live. Then it just creates some really angry assassin's.
4 Agree
Thu 11 Apr 2019 11:36 PM by cere2
phixion wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 5:39 PM
Archer are fine, often hit for ludicrous amounts of damage by them.

Says the SB who gets a free PA almost every time. Wonder how your win/loss ratio would be if you lost that advantage.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 12:08 AM by Emeryc
stinsfire wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:19 AM
As I mentioned in some threads self buffs in BC/PF should be 75 at max just like the thane self buff. Archery should recieve other benefits like rapid fire 2 giving damage bonus and not only a useless endu cost reduction. Maybe put longshot/volley or s.th in archery above lvl 40. Give penetrate arrow increasing chance to pen self-bt or sth and split it into levels. (e.g. 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%)

And again.. why are Devs ignoring the archer classes? They admitted they need to look at it weeks ago, never gave an update, stopped responding to archer threads and ignore any question about archers directly aimed at them. Hello?! You massively buffed thane and we have a buffed earth wizard line, we are trying to make friars viable in group play and Hunter/Scout has been suffering since beta and ranger is only good because he can dual wieldl melee.

Please do something. Make bow above 35 worth speccing into, make BC/PF worth speccing into. How can you be fine with the only viable ARCHER specs being high melee, 27/35 archery, ignoring your class defining magic spec and using 75 d/q charges instead. Hunters just get a the objectively worst pet and a speed shout for dumping hundreds of points into it. And rangers get... a damage add and a speedshout

This post pretty much wins the thread. I love the idea of giving RF2 a bonus... right now, it is absolutely useless.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 12:59 AM by AngelRose
cere2 wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 11:21 PM
Easy fixes:

1. equalize the stealth detection to 250 for sins and 250 for archers
2. add self buffs to archery that are better then pots/charges. It would give archers a reason to spec in archery
3. Tweak the pet. FFS - its a major aspect of the hunter and the pet is the worst pet on the server. It is easily out run or cc'd out. Give it either speed or a minor cc.
4. decrease the chance to be popped out of stealth by our own shots

#1 Hell yes.
#2 Or, make PF/BC self buffs scale like Thane's. you spec 50 PF/BC its 75 dex/quick 75 Str. PF gets DA, BC gets pet. I have no issue leaving the buff line there, just make it worth someone's time to spec into it.
#3 I agree, though don't go crazy. It's supposed to be like a damage add, help penetration etc. Don't make the pet disease/snare etc like it did in Live. Then it just creates some really angry assassin's.
4 Agree
[/quote]

I agree about the pet. It would be ez to make it OP. I don't want that. Even just some speed on the pet, so it isnt useless, would be an upgrade
Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:10 AM by kmark101
Yes, they need sweet manlove maximum. Scouts/Rangers are constantly hitting me for 6-700 damage shots. Also, archers never miss for some reason. They are strong and need only nerf, if anything.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:17 AM by waffel
kmark101 wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:10 AM
Yes, they need sweet manlove maximum. Scouts/Rangers are constantly hitting me for 6-700 damage shots. Also, archers never miss for some reason. They are strong and need only nerf, if anything.

Damage is fine on sub 50 targets without buffs or a template, which I’m guessing you are based on the damage you listed.

Archers don’t miss, but they get evaded, blocked, bubbled, and interrupted by any offensive effect.

Anyway, we’re talking about big boy RvR where people have temps, buffs, and RAs. Once you get to that stage ya let us know your opinions.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:37 AM by phixion
cere2 wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 11:36 PM
phixion wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 5:39 PM
Archer are fine, often hit for ludicrous amounts of damage by them.

Says the SB who gets a free PA almost every time. Wonder how your win/loss ratio would be if you lost that advantage.

So are you saying a class which can do such damage at range, and wear studded armor, should also be able to engage stealthed enemies first?
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:44 AM by teiloh
Truesight on the new RA table would probably be too much in the realm of griefing, but an ability on a cooldown that "pings" the area and reveals everyone within say 1000u for a split second might not be too bad.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 3:01 AM by Riac
waffel wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:17 AM
kmark101 wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:10 AM
Yes, they need sweet manlove maximum. Scouts/Rangers are constantly hitting me for 6-700 damage shots. Also, archers never miss for some reason. They are strong and need only nerf, if anything.

Damage is fine on sub 50 targets without buffs or a template, which I’m guessing you are based on the damage you listed.

Archers don’t miss, but they get evaded, blocked, bubbled, and interrupted by any offensive effect.

Anyway, we’re talking about big boy RvR where people have temps, buffs, and RAs. Once you get to that stage ya let us know your opinions.

shortymode hit me for 660 just now and then a 400 followup. i assure you that i am temped and wearing an AF buff (leather armor)
tbh the way these albs are zerging and assisting shots i hope they nerf them just to spit in their eye.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 3:30 AM by kmark101
waffel wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:17 AM
kmark101 wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:10 AM
Yes, they need sweet manlove maximum. Scouts/Rangers are constantly hitting me for 6-700 damage shots. Also, archers never miss for some reason. They are strong and need only nerf, if anything.

Damage is fine on sub 50 targets without buffs or a template, which I’m guessing you are based on the damage you listed.

Archers don’t miss, but they get evaded, blocked, bubbled, and interrupted by any offensive effect.

Anyway, we’re talking about big boy RvR where people have temps, buffs, and RAs. Once you get to that stage ya let us know your opinions.

Aha so you clearly have no idea. Archers initial shot is usually between 6-700 and then followed with 3-400ish normal shots. I am fully temped ofc, buffed with combined forces potion, so I can survive 3 rounds instead of 2. About "RA"s, I don't know what you mean, there is no RA that decreases archery damage for my class.

If archers would start to miss just like any other class in the game, then that would be a good start. Why they cannot miss anyway? It's bows and arrows, not tracer missiles.... So what happens now, if I miraculously survive their initial burst and reach them? Yes you guessed it right, double miss.... and then they just finish me off laughing. And you are claiming that this is how it is supposed to be.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 4:51 AM by jhaerik
Emeryc wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 12:08 AM
stinsfire wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:19 AM
As I mentioned in some threads self buffs in BC/PF should be 75 at max just like the thane self buff. Archery should recieve other benefits like rapid fire 2 giving damage bonus and not only a useless endu cost reduction. Maybe put longshot/volley or s.th in archery above lvl 40. Give penetrate arrow increasing chance to pen self-bt or sth and split it into levels. (e.g. 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%)

And again.. why are Devs ignoring the archer classes? They admitted they need to look at it weeks ago, never gave an update, stopped responding to archer threads and ignore any question about archers directly aimed at them. Hello?! You massively buffed thane and we have a buffed earth wizard line, we are trying to make friars viable in group play and Hunter/Scout has been suffering since beta and ranger is only good because he can dual wieldl melee.

Please do something. Make bow above 35 worth speccing into, make BC/PF worth speccing into. How can you be fine with the only viable ARCHER specs being high melee, 27/35 archery, ignoring your class defining magic spec and using 75 d/q charges instead. Hunters just get a the objectively worst pet and a speed shout for dumping hundreds of points into it. And rangers get... a damage add and a speedshout

This post pretty much wins the thread. I love the idea of giving RF2 a bonus... right now, it is absolutely useless.

Why? Because they are too damn busy adding ToA zones, race respecs for people too dumb to pick the correct race to begin with, and live-like pve instances to worry about unimportant things like RvR.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 7:11 AM by stinsfire
Riac wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 3:01 AM
waffel wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:17 AM
kmark101 wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:10 AM
Yes, they need sweet manlove maximum. Scouts/Rangers are constantly hitting me for 6-700 damage shots. Also, archers never miss for some reason. They are strong and need only nerf, if anything.

Damage is fine on sub 50 targets without buffs or a template, which I’m guessing you are based on the damage you listed.

Archers don’t miss, but they get evaded, blocked, bubbled, and interrupted by any offensive effect.

Anyway, we’re talking about big boy RvR where people have temps, buffs, and RAs. Once you get to that stage ya let us know your opinions.

shortymode hit me for 660 just now and then a 400 followup. i assure you that i am temped and wearing an AF buff (leather armor)
tbh the way these albs are zerging and assisting shots i hope they nerf them just to spit in their eye.

And how often does he unstealth you and then shoot you wih arrows? How many 1on1 did you lose vs him? For how much damage does your PA hit him and how often do you uncover him and burst him down with a PA? Do you have a DD charge for ez interrupt and then running away or engaging depending on the range?

btw using one of the top RR archers as proof of something being op..lol. Guess 2h Savages should receive a nerf too.. fkng OP... once you hit RR8.

If archers would start to miss just like any other class in the game, then that would be a good start. Why they cannot miss anyway? It's bows and arrows, not tracer missiles.... So what happens now, if I miraculously survive their initial burst and reach them? Yes you guessed it right, double miss.... and then they just finish me off laughing. And you are claiming that this is how it is supposed to be.

If you are losing fights as an assassin vs anything else than a high RR melee ranger who dumps 3 active RAs just to beat you, well.. then you are not very good at the game. Double miss? Wtf are you talking about? Hunters and Rangers have god awful defense.. base parry and evade3. And if anyone is double missing it will be the scout who has to go through baseparry+max evade while you have bonus defense penetration vs shield. They are going to miss twice as much on you. You have like 30% vs 12% evade or sth. And why do you not rupt him with a charge?

If archers would start to miss just like any other class in the game, then that would be a good start. Why they cannot miss anyway?
This just shows that you never played an archer and you have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about. Arrows can be negated by BT, blocked (60% block chance with engage), evaded, parried by valewalkers and you can be interrupted by DD procs and charges although you are ranged which makes you unable to shoot for seconds due to net having "quickshot" like casters have QC. Archery in reality has a high wayer miss rate than spells. If you are running towards an archer you have chance to evade of ~30% + you rupt him with charge once he isin range and then you can decide if you just want to run away or kill him while spamming /rofl.

Plus an archer has no way of controlling the fight. If he attacks you at long range you just walk out of his range and if he attacks you at close range you can rupt him and then kill him. Btw archers have already been nerfed: no PD, no MOS stealth detection, pet uncovers you on entering combat state(which was only introduced after they made pets really strong with styles and procs). If you truly think that archers need a nerf, then you are bad and salty because of your own incompetence.

buffed with combined forces potion
Using potions instead of 75 charges as an assassin... smh
Fri 12 Apr 2019 7:45 AM by stinsfire
jhaerik wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 4:51 AM
Emeryc wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 12:08 AM
stinsfire wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:19 AM
As I mentioned in some threads self buffs in BC/PF should be 75 at max just like the thane self buff. Archery should recieve other benefits like rapid fire 2 giving damage bonus and not only a useless endu cost reduction. Maybe put longshot/volley or s.th in archery above lvl 40. Give penetrate arrow increasing chance to pen self-bt or sth and split it into levels. (e.g. 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%)

And again.. why are Devs ignoring the archer classes? They admitted they need to look at it weeks ago, never gave an update, stopped responding to archer threads and ignore any question about archers directly aimed at them. Hello?! You massively buffed thane and we have a buffed earth wizard line, we are trying to make friars viable in group play and Hunter/Scout has been suffering since beta and ranger is only good because he can dual wieldl melee.

Please do something. Make bow above 35 worth speccing into, make BC/PF worth speccing into. How can you be fine with the only viable ARCHER specs being high melee, 27/35 archery, ignoring your class defining magic spec and using 75 d/q charges instead. Hunters just get a the objectively worst pet and a speed shout for dumping hundreds of points into it. And rangers get... a damage add and a speedshout

This post pretty much wins the thread. I love the idea of giving RF2 a bonus... right now, it is absolutely useless.

Why? Because they are too damn busy adding ToA zones, race respecs for people too dumb to pick the correct race to begin with, and live-like pve instances to worry about unimportant things like RvR.
Yes, to me it seems that they are mostly doing things which are fun to develop and code right now. Who can blame them when they are all doing this for free :-/
Fri 12 Apr 2019 7:46 AM by Riac
stinsfire wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 7:11 AM
Riac wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 3:01 AM
waffel wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:17 AM
Damage is fine on sub 50 targets without buffs or a template, which I’m guessing you are based on the damage you listed.

Archers don’t miss, but they get evaded, blocked, bubbled, and interrupted by any offensive effect.

Anyway, we’re talking about big boy RvR where people have temps, buffs, and RAs. Once you get to that stage ya let us know your opinions.

shortymode hit me for 660 just now and then a 400 followup. i assure you that i am temped and wearing an AF buff (leather armor)
tbh the way these albs are zerging and assisting shots i hope they nerf them just to spit in their eye.

And how often does he unstealth you and then shoot you wih arrows? How many 1on1 did you lose vs him? For how much damage does your PA hit him and how often do you uncover him and burst him down with a PA? Do you have a DD charge for ez interrupt and then running away or engaging depending on the range?

btw using one of the top RR archers as proof of something being op..lol. Guess 2h Savages should receive a nerf too.. fkng OP... once you hit RR8.

If archers would start to miss just like any other class in the game, then that would be a good start. Why they cannot miss anyway? It's bows and arrows, not tracer missiles.... So what happens now, if I miraculously survive their initial burst and reach them? Yes you guessed it right, double miss.... and then they just finish me off laughing. And you are claiming that this is how it is supposed to be.

If you are losing fights as an assassin vs anything else than a high RR melee ranger who dumps 3 active RAs just to beat you, well.. then you are not very good at the game. Double miss? Wtf are you talking about? Hunters and Rangers have god awful defense.. base parry and evade3. And if anyone is double missing it will be the scout who has to go through baseparry+max evade while you have bonus defense penetration vs shield. They are going to miss twice as much on you. You have like 30% vs 12% evade or sth. And why do you not rupt him with a charge?

If archers would start to miss just like any other class in the game, then that would be a good start. Why they cannot miss anyway?
This just shows that you never played an archer and you have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about. Arrows can be negated by BT, blocked (60% block chance with engage), evaded, parried by valewalkers and you can be interrupted by DD procs although you are ranged which makes you unable to shoot for seconds. Archery in reality has a high wayer miss rate than spells. If you are running towards an archer you have chance to evade of ~30% + parry + you rupt him with charge once he isin range and then you can decide if you just want to run away or kill him while spamming /rofl.

he never unstealths me with arrows, mainly because thats not what his class is designed to do (unlike sins) nor should it be. i wasnt aware he is one of the highest rr archers, was just the most recent one to shoot me, that dmg is not uncommon. also, he wins the 1v1s when my purge is down he slams me for a 2nd crit shot in my face for another 600 dmg. you act like scouts cant win a fight and they certainly can.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:03 PM by cere2
phixion wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:37 AM
cere2 wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 11:36 PM
phixion wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 5:39 PM
Archer are fine, often hit for ludicrous amounts of damage by them.

Says the SB who gets a free PA almost every time. Wonder how your win/loss ratio would be if you lost that advantage.

So are you saying a class which can do such damage at range, and wear studded armor, should also be able to engage stealthed enemies first?

I'm saying that range should be 250 each, not 125 for archer and 250 for sin. Which would mean....archer doesn't have time to get shot off, but assassin doesn't get a free PA/BS like they do now. It's a joke.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:10 PM by dbeattie71
cere2 wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:03 PM
phixion wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:37 AM
cere2 wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 11:36 PM
Says the SB who gets a free PA almost every time. Wonder how your win/loss ratio would be if you lost that advantage.

So are you saying a class which can do such damage at range, and wear studded armor, should also be able to engage stealthed enemies first?

I'm saying that range should be 250 each, not 125 for archer and 250 for sin. Which would mean....archer doesn't have time to get shot off, but assassin doesn't get a free PA/BS like they do now. It's a joke.

It probably sucks on a keen for sure but on a Shar it means you’re burning purge and IP2.
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:10 PM by cere2
Riac wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 3:01 AM
waffel wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:17 AM
kmark101 wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:10 AM
Yes, they need sweet manlove maximum. Scouts/Rangers are constantly hitting me for 6-700 damage shots. Also, archers never miss for some reason. They are strong and need only nerf, if anything.

Damage is fine on sub 50 targets without buffs or a template, which I’m guessing you are based on the damage you listed.

Archers don’t miss, but they get evaded, blocked, bubbled, and interrupted by any offensive effect.

Anyway, we’re talking about big boy RvR where people have temps, buffs, and RAs. Once you get to that stage ya let us know your opinions.

shortymode hit me for 660 just now and then a 400 followup. i assure you that i am temped and wearing an AF buff (leather armor)
tbh the way these albs are zerging and assisting shots i hope they nerf them just to spit in their eye.

We all know that if you are caught by a critshot it's going to hurt.
How many times 1v1 have you been shot from stealth by archer? My guess? Not one fricking time. Yet sin's think its perfectly ok to get a free PA to start off each battle.
So your taking massive damage from an archer that added, is crit shotting etc....your point here is what?
If another assassin adds on a fight can they not just start off with PA for mass damage as well?

Point here is archers will lose almost every battle to a sin 1v1. Scout "may" win if sin's purge is down...usually still have vanish up anyhow. Hunter/Ranger "can" win if they have purge/both heal charges/IP all at the ready. Then they are worthless for next 15 mins while sin just goes right back to work since nothing sins have other than purge have timers.

Archers definitely need love and stealth detection range should be where they start, even it out. Amazing to me it hasn't been changed yet.
Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:20 PM by Mauriac
archers need absolutely nothing right now.

you can critshot people in combat

you can easily do 1.5 sec attacks for 350+ with bow while getting a massive range boost from standing on a gopher mound

and you whine because your stl detection is basically the equivalent of melee range shorter than sins. gtfo
Sat 13 Apr 2019 11:13 PM by AngelRose
stinsfire wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 7:11 AM
Riac wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 3:01 AM
waffel wrote:
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:17 AM
Damage is fine on sub 50 targets without buffs or a template, which I’m guessing you are based on the damage you listed.

Archers don’t miss, but they get evaded, blocked, bubbled, and interrupted by any offensive effect.

Anyway, we’re talking about big boy RvR where people have temps, buffs, and RAs. Once you get to that stage ya let us know your opinions.

shortymode hit me for 660 just now and then a 400 followup. i assure you that i am temped and wearing an AF buff (leather armor)
tbh the way these albs are zerging and assisting shots i hope they nerf them just to spit in their eye.

And how often does he unstealth you and then shoot you wih arrows? How many 1on1 did you lose vs him? For how much damage does your PA hit him and how often do you uncover him and burst him down with a PA? Do you have a DD charge for ez interrupt and then running away or engaging depending on the range?

btw using one of the top RR archers as proof of something being op..lol. Guess 2h Savages should receive a nerf too.. fkng OP... once you hit RR8.

If archers would start to miss just like any other class in the game, then that would be a good start. Why they cannot miss anyway? It's bows and arrows, not tracer missiles.... So what happens now, if I miraculously survive their initial burst and reach them? Yes you guessed it right, double miss.... and then they just finish me off laughing. And you are claiming that this is how it is supposed to be.

If you are losing fights as an assassin vs anything else than a high RR melee ranger who dumps 3 active RAs just to beat you, well.. then you are not very good at the game. Double miss? Wtf are you talking about? Hunters and Rangers have god awful defense.. base parry and evade3. And if anyone is double missing it will be the scout who has to go through baseparry+max evade while you have bonus defense penetration vs shield. They are going to miss twice as much on you. You have like 30% vs 12% evade or sth. And why do you not rupt him with a charge?

If archers would start to miss just like any other class in the game, then that would be a good start. Why they cannot miss anyway?
This just shows that you never played an archer and you have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about. Arrows can be negated by BT, blocked (60% block chance with engage), evaded, parried by valewalkers and you can be interrupted by DD procs and charges although you are ranged which makes you unable to shoot for seconds due to net having "quickshot" like casters have QC. Archery in reality has a high wayer miss rate than spells. If you are running towards an archer you have chance to evade of ~30% + you rupt him with charge once he isin range and then you can decide if you just want to run away or kill him while spamming /rofl.

Plus an archer has no way of controlling the fight. If he attacks you at long range you just walk out of his range and if he attacks you at close range you can rupt him and then kill him. Btw archers have already been nerfed: no PD, no MOS stealth detection, pet uncovers you on entering combat state(which was only introduced after they made pets really strong with styles and procs). If you truly think that archers need a nerf, then you are bad and salty because of your own incompetence.

buffed with combined forces potion
Using potions instead of 75 charges as an assassin... smh


GREAT post!
Sat 13 Apr 2019 11:43 PM by Emeryc
Mauriac wrote:
Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
archers need absolutely nothing right now.

you can critshot people in combat

you can easily do 1.5 sec attacks for 350+ with bow while getting a massive range boost from standing on a gopher mound

and you whine because your stl detection is basically the equivalent of melee range shorter than sins. gtfo

Untrue, untrue and untrue. Are we done here?
Sat 13 Apr 2019 11:53 PM by Riac
Emeryc wrote:
Sat 13 Apr 2019 11:43 PM
Mauriac wrote:
Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
archers need absolutely nothing right now.

you can critshot people in combat

you can easily do 1.5 sec attacks for 350+ with bow while getting a massive range boost from standing on a gopher mound

and you whine because your stl detection is basically the equivalent of melee range shorter than sins. gtfo

Untrue, untrue and untrue. Are we done here?

i feel like ive been crit shot by adding scouts while fighting before, i know youre not supposed to be able to.. i also feel like the 1.5 attacks for 350+ is also true, how is this no the case in your opinion?
Sun 14 Apr 2019 12:39 AM by waffel
Mauriac wrote:
Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
archers need absolutely nothing right now.

you can critshot people in combat

you can easily do 1.5 sec attacks for 350+ with bow while getting a massive range boost from standing on a gopher mound

and you whine because your stl detection is basically the equivalent of melee range shorter than sins. gtfo

You can’t crit shot people in melee combat. You can only crit someone once every 15 seconds. This is all stated on the wiki. If you feel it’s different, post logs (hint: it works that way. Source: I’ve fired probably 1k crit shots)

1.5 attack speed is from rapid fire. 5.5 speed bow, rapid firing @ 1.5 speed requires: 250 quick (quickness cap) 75 dex/quick charge, combined buffs, and a few levels of mastery of archery RA.

That said, nobody (even casters) get hit for 300 every shot from rapid fire if you’re 50 with buffs and a template. Again, if you think I’m wrong post logs. Source: I’ve fired probably 3k rapid fire bow shots

Now that we’ve cleared up some lies: I FEEL
BOW DAMAGE IS FINE. What is not fine is the interruptions archers face (along with unaware targets standing AFK evading crits), and bow line being lackluster. Stealth detection sucks but I can live with it.
Sun 14 Apr 2019 12:56 AM by Riac
waffel wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 12:39 AM
Mauriac wrote:
Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
archers need absolutely nothing right now.

you can critshot people in combat

you can easily do 1.5 sec attacks for 350+ with bow while getting a massive range boost from standing on a gopher mound

and you whine because your stl detection is basically the equivalent of melee range shorter than sins. gtfo

You can’t crit shot people in melee combat. You can only crit someone once every 15 seconds. This is all stated on the wiki. If you feel it’s different, post logs (hint: it works that way. Source: I’ve fired probably 1k crit shots)

1.5 attack speed is from rapid fire. 5.5 speed bow, rapid firing @ 1.5 speed requires: 250 quick (quickness cap) 75 dex/quick charge, combined buffs, and a few levels of mastery of archery RA.

That said, nobody (even casters) get hit for 300 every shot from rapid fire if you’re 50 with buffs and a template. Again, if you think I’m wrong post logs. Source: I’ve fired probably 3k rapid fire bow shots

Now that we’ve cleared up some lies: I FEEL
BOW DAMAGE IS FINE. What is not fine is the interruptions archers face (along with unaware targets standing AFK evading crits), and bow line being lackluster. Stealth detection sucks but I can live with it.

hes right about the rapid fire, i look at log and i get hit for about 200-240 with my af buff up.
Sun 14 Apr 2019 2:48 AM by noflex
Riac wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 12:56 AM
hes right about the rapid fire, i look at log and i get hit for about 200-240 with my af buff up.

he said 1.5 seconds for 350+

so no.. hes not right

im 45 bow and have red dmg add from PF and 5.2 speed bow so my rapid fire shots range from 80-100 on tanks to 175-200 on casters (that's with dmg add which on rapid fire gets cut in half.. so instead of 25dmg its 12 extra dmg)
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:08 AM by Riac
noflex wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 2:48 AM
Riac wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 12:56 AM
hes right about the rapid fire, i look at log and i get hit for about 200-240 with my af buff up.

he said 1.5 seconds for 350+

so no.. hes not right

im 45 bow and have red dmg add from PF and 5.2 speed bow so my rapid fire shots range from 80-100 on tanks to 175-200 on casters (that's with dmg add which on rapid fire gets cut in half.. so instead of 25dmg its 12 extra dmg)

im referring to waffels post, he was right.

https://imgur.com/a/kuymfUj this is with my af charge up too, on leather armor.

thatss a low cs from shorty too, the other night he got me for 730 with one lol
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:45 AM by vonpaulus
Volley and Longshot should be incorporated into Bow spec.

Longshots reuse timer should be reduced based on spec and should pierce BT.
Level 40 reuse 5 minutes
Level 45 2 minutes
Level 50 30 seconds

Higher Bow spec should provide better chance to pierce BT with reduced damage along with less chance to evade. Not sure if this would be a weapon skill buff or some other calculation.
Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:13 AM by qq6
Some really cool suggestions in here, loving the last few ideas, hope devs do make a change. Was actually thinking of swapping to full bow, but always get discouraged by the bow line, cos there is just so few targets to pick from, and ye, bored as hell atm even if i am doing alright on my melee one :X.
Sun 14 Apr 2019 5:14 PM by Mauriac
waffel wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 12:39 AM
Mauriac wrote:
Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
archers need absolutely nothing right now.

you can critshot people in combat

you can easily do 1.5 sec attacks for 350+ with bow while getting a massive range boost from standing on a gopher mound

and you whine because your stl detection is basically the equivalent of melee range shorter than sins. gtfo

You can’t crit shot people in melee combat. You can only crit someone once every 15 seconds. This is all stated on the wiki. If you feel it’s different, post logs (hint: it works that way. Source: I’ve fired probably 1k crit shots)

1.5 attack speed is from rapid fire. 5.5 speed bow, rapid firing @ 1.5 speed requires: 250 quick (quickness cap) 75 dex/quick charge, combined buffs, and a few levels of mastery of archery RA.

That said, nobody (even casters) get hit for 300 every shot from rapid fire if you’re 50 with buffs and a template. Again, if you think I’m wrong post logs. Source: I’ve fired probably 3k rapid fire bow shots

Now that we’ve cleared up some lies: I FEEL
BOW DAMAGE IS FINE. What is not fine is the interruptions archers face (along with unaware targets standing AFK evading crits), and bow line being lackluster. Stealth detection sucks but I can live with it.

you can in fact critshot people in combat. it is probably harder for you as a ranger though ill give you that. watch scouts / mincers sometime. mincer engages, hits target with stun while scout hits target with a critshot as mincer beats the brakes off him. its a real thing
Mon 15 Apr 2019 7:18 AM by noflex
Mauriac wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 5:14 PM
waffel wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 12:39 AM
Mauriac wrote:
Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
archers need absolutely nothing right now.

you can critshot people in combat

you can easily do 1.5 sec attacks for 350+ with bow while getting a massive range boost from standing on a gopher mound

and you whine because your stl detection is basically the equivalent of melee range shorter than sins. gtfo

You can’t crit shot people in melee combat. You can only crit someone once every 15 seconds. This is all stated on the wiki. If you feel it’s different, post logs (hint: it works that way. Source: I’ve fired probably 1k crit shots)

1.5 attack speed is from rapid fire. 5.5 speed bow, rapid firing @ 1.5 speed requires: 250 quick (quickness cap) 75 dex/quick charge, combined buffs, and a few levels of mastery of archery RA.

That said, nobody (even casters) get hit for 300 every shot from rapid fire if you’re 50 with buffs and a template. Again, if you think I’m wrong post logs. Source: I’ve fired probably 3k rapid fire bow shots

Now that we’ve cleared up some lies: I FEEL
BOW DAMAGE IS FINE. What is not fine is the interruptions archers face (along with unaware targets standing AFK evading crits), and bow line being lackluster. Stealth detection sucks but I can live with it.

you can in fact critshot people in combat. it is probably harder for you as a ranger though ill give you that. watch scouts / mincers sometime. mincer engages, hits target with stun while scout hits target with a critshot as mincer beats the brakes off him. its a real thing

being stunned your no longer in combat, just like if a scout slams target, or a ranger side stun or hunter rear stun style's they can crit all the same because target is stunned and immobile and not in active combat
Mon 15 Apr 2019 2:04 PM by Mauriac
noflex wrote:
Mon 15 Apr 2019 7:18 AM
Mauriac wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 5:14 PM
waffel wrote:
Sun 14 Apr 2019 12:39 AM
You can’t crit shot people in melee combat. You can only crit someone once every 15 seconds. This is all stated on the wiki. If you feel it’s different, post logs (hint: it works that way. Source: I’ve fired probably 1k crit shots)

1.5 attack speed is from rapid fire. 5.5 speed bow, rapid firing @ 1.5 speed requires: 250 quick (quickness cap) 75 dex/quick charge, combined buffs, and a few levels of mastery of archery RA.

That said, nobody (even casters) get hit for 300 every shot from rapid fire if you’re 50 with buffs and a template. Again, if you think I’m wrong post logs. Source: I’ve fired probably 3k rapid fire bow shots

Now that we’ve cleared up some lies: I FEEL
BOW DAMAGE IS FINE. What is not fine is the interruptions archers face (along with unaware targets standing AFK evading crits), and bow line being lackluster. Stealth detection sucks but I can live with it.

you can in fact critshot people in combat. it is probably harder for you as a ranger though ill give you that. watch scouts / mincers sometime. mincer engages, hits target with stun while scout hits target with a critshot as mincer beats the brakes off him. its a real thing

being stunned your no longer in combat, just like if a scout slams target, or a ranger side stun or hunter rear stun style's they can crit all the same because target is stunned and immobile and not in active combat

I dunno. I feel like if I've been stunned and someone is beating the shit out of me then by any intelligent definition, I'm in combat.

I'm not saying nerf slam and critshot. But I am saying you can stun people and critshot them while someone else is beating on them. That should by definition be in combat
Mon 15 Apr 2019 3:06 PM by mhenfhis
give archers remedy
Tue 16 Apr 2019 7:49 AM by Tamy
Remedy was one of the worst "inventions" ever (just wanted to state that out even if you were just sarcastic)

Just get rid of this ridicolous and completely unjustified stealth advantage of sins and add some tools as incentive to spec higher than 35 bow (like adding volley/longshot etc. to the bow lines) and I'm totally fine.

But it seems not to happen anything anyway...
Tue 16 Apr 2019 9:50 AM by mhenfhis
Tamy wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 7:49 AM
Remedy was one of the worst "inventions" ever (just wanted to state that out even if you were just sarcastic)

Just get rid of this ridicolous and completely unjustified stealth advantage of sins and add some tools as incentive to spec higher than 35 bow (like adding volley/longshot etc. to the bow lines) and I'm totally fine.

But it seems not to happen anything anyway...

No, i am not joking, remedy is a good ability.

Should be passive on assasins and on a 5min cd on Archers. Remedy gives at least a little room for archers to stand vs assasins, even more with the buffed env line they have here.
Tue 16 Apr 2019 10:36 AM by Tamy
mhenfhis wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 9:50 AM
Tamy wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 7:49 AM
Remedy was one of the worst "inventions" ever (just wanted to state that out even if you were just sarcastic)

Just get rid of this ridicolous and completely unjustified stealth advantage of sins and add some tools as incentive to spec higher than 35 bow (like adding volley/longshot etc. to the bow lines) and I'm totally fine.

But it seems not to happen anything anyway...

No, i am not joking, remedy is a good ability.

Should be passive on assasins and on a 5min cd on Archers. Remedy gives at least a little room for archers to stand vs assasins, even more with the buffed env line they have here.

Sorry, but I have to disagree strongly. Passive on assassins nice...so basically you punish the "skilled" assassins (weapon switch) in there sin vs sin fights and the archers only gain an advantage vs. one specific class. We can do it like on live where everyone is forced to spec 50 stealth due to remedy for a skill that only helps you vs. one class and basically removes another skill-line in which you specced 30+ (env).

But I'm pretty sure they would never introduce Remedy or at least I hope so.
Tue 16 Apr 2019 11:26 AM by Lillebror
Archers should absolutly get some stealth low. same with minstrels.

Assassins get it all in the stealth war.
assassins vanish, minstrel get sos, archers got a joke speed burst ^^
Tue 16 Apr 2019 2:28 PM by mhenfhis
Tamy wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 10:36 AM
mhenfhis wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 9:50 AM
Tamy wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 7:49 AM
Remedy was one of the worst "inventions" ever (just wanted to state that out even if you were just sarcastic)

Just get rid of this ridicolous and completely unjustified stealth advantage of sins and add some tools as incentive to spec higher than 35 bow (like adding volley/longshot etc. to the bow lines) and I'm totally fine.

But it seems not to happen anything anyway...

No, i am not joking, remedy is a good ability.

Should be passive on assasins and on a 5min cd on Archers. Remedy gives at least a little room for archers to stand vs assasins, even more with the buffed env line they have here.

Sorry, but I have to disagree strongly. Passive on assassins nice...so basically you punish the "skilled" assassins (weapon switch) in there sin vs sin fights and the archers only gain an advantage vs. one specific class. We can do it like on live where everyone is forced to spec 50 stealth due to remedy for a skill that only helps you vs. one class and basically removes another skill-line in which you specced 30+ (env).

But I'm pretty sure they would never introduce Remedy or at least I hope so.

sorry but with the switch mechanic and macros that is on right now, is exactly as live even more stronger, since there is no cooldown ( they have a 7s share cooldwon) on poisons like on live .
Tue 16 Apr 2019 2:56 PM by Tamy
What are you exactly talking about? I never said something about the strength of envenom. I think it's even stronger here than on live (even with the recent nerf). The switch on live towards magical poisons and these cool downs was more a nerf than a buff.

I still would hate the introduction of remedy (and I'm saying that as a Scout player).
Tue 16 Apr 2019 3:02 PM by cere2
Sin's did get a lot on this server.
Stealth detection top dog being #1. Archer's get same detection range as basically any class....
#2 Used to have balance archers could see them in stealth too, and if they didn't play well, they might lose! Now its almost /faceroll
#3 /switch was a horrible idea. Makes assassin's with at least some skill, irrelevant. Drop and drag should not have been changed to something that can just be either set to clickers on qbar, or set to /qbind. I know this is nice for other classes, but they also could drag/drop if they wanted to switch from slash/crush damage etc.
Easy example is when dragging, if I have lifebane on my sword im dragging, and my enemy purges my disease, im kinda hosed until next swing when I can drag my diseased weapon to weapon slot to re-apply my disease. If they heal during that time they getting full benefit of those heals etc which is bad for me the assassin. With /switch it's instant. They purge, I press my qbind "f" and disease is instantly re-applied. They thought purging then using potions would be helpful! Ha!
Sorry, but this is not how poison's were intended to be used.
Archer's are in a bad place atm and seem's nothing is being done/talked about by the devs. I may be wrong in thinking this but I think some of the top dawg's must play sin's for this server to have some of the "custom" changes that are in it right now. This is a new deal for archer's because at no time did live ever have stealth detection so one-sided.
Don't get me wrong here, some of the changes they made here are awesome QOL's, but before Live went full retard in like 2015, it had much better overall balance.
Tue 16 Apr 2019 3:06 PM by mhenfhis
Tamy wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 2:56 PM
What are you exactly talking about? I never said something about the strength of envenom. I think it's even stronger here than on live (even with the recent nerf). The switch on live towards magical poisons and these cool downs was more a nerf than a buff.

I still would hate the introduction of remedy (and I'm saying that as a Scout player).

Just wanted to point that there is no skill on swapping with the current mechanic.

And how does remedy affect you? you dont have env
Tue 16 Apr 2019 3:47 PM by cere2
Just watched an SB video here, thought some might want to see how balanced stealth detection is atm.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7690
Tue 16 Apr 2019 5:42 PM by qq6
cere he has the stealth pot buff for half the vid......... :X, the fight where he jumped telco, he didnt even land pa, if u think that was enough time to land the pa, ye maybe, but he is RR8 and he didnt... so... anyway, i know i've been opposing you about this from the start, and you do have a point and i'd love it if we had equal detection... but in reality its not that big a deal, if you just play and get used to dodging / turning at the right time. This past week, i think i got PA'd once... by an infi that was rr4ish, and i do meet a lot of assassins, perhaps it shows that its not all about the range?

on a side note, i hate watching vids of daoc, cos very very rarely u get to see fights, with all cds and buffs up on both, i'll watch it again tomorrow cos i am just dead atm.
i could make a vid aswell and show u how much range matters really, where they just dont get to hit first even with the added range, or how i just stand there on a hill and shoot 20+ ppl one after another, but who wants to watch that, its boring as hell..
Tue 16 Apr 2019 6:45 PM by cere2
qq6 wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 5:42 PM
cere he has the stealth pot buff for half the vid......... :X, the fight where he jumped telco, he didnt even land pa, if u think that was enough time to land the pa, ye maybe, but he is RR8 and he didnt... so... anyway, i know i've been opposing you about this from the start, and you do have a point and i'd love it if we had equal detection... but in reality its not that big a deal, if you just play and get used to dodging / turning at the right time. This past week, i think i got PA'd once... by an infi that was rr4ish, and i do meet a lot of assassins, perhaps it shows that its not all about the range?


I only see stealth pot for 20 sec of vid. I mean check 1:29 your telling me thats not enough time to set up a PA/BS?
I know you fight against this, I just don't get the reasoning. Because your what rr8 and it doesn't affect you as much?
You enjoy playing melee ranger all the time? Cool, I actually enjoy archers for more....I don't know...archery?
I mean if I had a RR10 Thane, PA wouldn't bother me as much as a RR2 thane either?
Sometimes there is no avoiding it, no matter of turning, sometimes it's just not enough. I play in NA so perhaps lag has something to do with it as well since server in Germ. Either way as you can see in vid the detection is just bonkers different.
Never has there been a time in daoc that detection was this fubar.
Tue 16 Apr 2019 11:53 PM by noflex
yaman that inchai vid at 1:30 is funny, that detection range (he has no SL pot up then) is bonkers
Wed 17 Apr 2019 12:34 AM by dbeattie71
qq6 wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 5:42 PM
cere he has the stealth pot buff for half the vid......... :X, the fight where he jumped telco, he didnt even land pa, if u think that was enough time to land the pa, ye maybe, but he is RR8 and he didnt... so... anyway, i know i've been opposing you about this from the start, and you do have a point and i'd love it if we had equal detection... but in reality its not that big a deal, if you just play and get used to dodging / turning at the right time. This past week, i think i got PA'd once... by an infi that was rr4ish, and i do meet a lot of assassins, perhaps it shows that its not all about the range?

on a side note, i hate watching vids of daoc, cos very very rarely u get to see fights, with all cds and buffs up on both, i'll watch it again tomorrow cos i am just dead atm.
i could make a vid aswell and show u how much range matters really, where they just dont get to hit first even with the added range, or how i just stand there on a hill and shoot 20+ ppl one after another, but who wants to watch that, its boring as hell..

Yeah, I get pissed when I get PAd because I have to burn purge and IP to win 😀
Wed 17 Apr 2019 1:08 AM by qq6
I rewatched the vid, @ 1:30 he has stealth lore up. The only fight that matters there, is vs Telco, imo, and the last one vs Homefryjr. vs Telco range seems smaller cos they are walking more or less towards each other, vs Home its pretty massive i have to admit, will have to ask him if he has max stealth there. It matters a lot at which angle you come in, just like being hit in melee, some angles have a bigger range.

I am not so much opposed to what you are saying, as i am just saying, get out there, and just stick with it, you will find a way to play. Stick to 1 char, get over the fact that you will die in the game, and just go out. You want to play archery, go out and just find a spot, shoot some ppl, die, go again. I did write that 90% of my kills do come from bow, so i dont see why you cant do the same, lag at range shouldnt matter.
Wed 17 Apr 2019 2:32 AM by Auranyte
noflex wrote:
Tue 16 Apr 2019 11:53 PM
yaman that inchai vid at 1:30 is funny, that detection range (he has no SL pot up then) is bonkers

At 1:30 he has stealth lore up. It is the STR/Fist Icon on row 2 of his buffs.

He has stealth lore up for the 2nd (Meggles) and 4th fight (The 2 Brehons)
Wed 17 Apr 2019 3:32 AM by cere2
qq6 wrote:
Wed 17 Apr 2019 1:08 AM
I rewatched the vid, @ 1:30 he has stealth lore up. The only fight that matters there, is vs Telco, imo, and the last one vs Homefryjr. vs Telco range seems smaller cos they are walking more or less towards each other, vs Home its pretty massive i have to admit, will have to ask him if he has max stealth there. It matters a lot at which angle you come in, just like being hit in melee, some angles have a bigger range.

I am not so much opposed to what you are saying, as i am just saying, get out there, and just stick with it, you will find a way to play. Stick to 1 char, get over the fact that you will die in the game, and just go out. You want to play archery, go out and just find a spot, shoot some ppl, die, go again. I did write that 90% of my kills do come from bow, so i dont see why you cant do the same, lag at range shouldnt matter.

It's not that I know I can't, trust me I played live for years and had all 3 archers at high rr. It's just that I shouldn't have to. Archers should not be fodder for stealth classes. Never has that been an issue until Phoenix.
Why they decided to punish archers so much I just don't get it.
And I don't see stealth lore icon at 1:30.
Wed 17 Apr 2019 3:38 AM by t4coops
kite noobs auehUEHAUEHuehaUEHAUh
Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:22 AM by qq6
The one left of stealth icon (2nd row of buffs)


its a pretty crazy buff tbh, i used it a few times after ass vanish, and thats about the range i saw them at aswell. Too bad it costs so much on hib.

How was it on live at the start? Wasnt see hidden from assassins basically op? camo helped, but that was a buff and had cd, when u didnt have it on, u were fodder aswell no?
Wed 17 Apr 2019 6:04 AM by Mavella
I think the fight he's been ripping about is the next one vs the NS that gets 3 shot and the ranger tha can be seen from a considerable distance. The bigger issue is clearly one or both of those two don't know what the he they are doing as a ns/ranger pair should mop the floor vs a solo sb.

I seem to recall getting throttled by a rr9 Shar ranger tonight in melee and he didn't even have to IP! Don't remember the name though.
Wed 17 Apr 2019 6:28 AM by Lillebror
Great, so stealthlore pot increase already stealth detection with 250?

That picture just show how bad this shit is
Wed 17 Apr 2019 7:00 AM by Sepplord
sounds like archers could use stealthlore pots to easily avoid assassins
Wed 17 Apr 2019 7:38 AM by Lillebror
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 17 Apr 2019 7:00 AM
sounds like archers could use stealthlore pots to easily avoid assassins

Why on earth should they have to. (i tested it, was 400g for 10pcs for a while on cm) and you will go broke fast since its short duration ofc and should be.

If i as a minstrel uses one, an Assassin will still see the minstrel at close to the doble range.
Wed 17 Apr 2019 7:49 AM by Sepplord
Lillebror wrote:
Wed 17 Apr 2019 7:38 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 17 Apr 2019 7:00 AM
sounds like archers could use stealthlore pots to easily avoid assassins

Why on earth should they have to. (i tested it, was 400g for 10pcs for a while on cm) and you will go broke fast since its short duration ofc and should be.

If i as a minstrel uses one, an Assassin still see the minstrel at close to the doble range.

because the sologame and especially the stealthgame is an armsrace about pots/charges...
you also don't need to have it permanently active, but at hotspots or when you were visible shooting enemies it would be smart to pop one if you don't want to change your position.
Many claim that there are just no options to avoid PAs from assassins, which is just not true. Archers here have reported that they often turn/avoid PA, and those who can't do that fast enough could use stealthlore pots.
Someone must be using them, otherwise they wouldn't be expensive. YOU chose to not pay the price others are paying. So live with the downsides.


I am not saying that archers are fine btw. there are problems. (mainly no reason to specc in bow, pathfinding and especially beastcraft lacking, just to name 2) But i disagree that they should be on even footing VS assassins in melee when they are a ranged class.
Afaik you can preload a critshot and then chose your target afterwards (which wasn't possible on live), with higher stealth detection archers would get free critshots on assassins, without a positional requirement...so not every custom change on phoenix is a nerf.
Wed 17 Apr 2019 7:55 AM by Stimmed
Just give archers the same stealth as Assassins.
Make it so anyone with stealth cant use SL potions.
Make hunters pets do something/give hunters something to help them slightly. Hunters are basically fodder atm unless they catch you running.

I mean you cant ever make it so archers are on par with assassins in melee. But at least if your not eating a PA every single fight and you got your big Ras up. It should be a closer fight. RNG on evades will always cuck someone though etc.
Wed 17 Apr 2019 8:00 AM by Lillebror
I dont care about dps, you guys out dps every stealther in melee.
I just dont find it fair that you spot everything long before archers and minstrels.

With Archers camo+true sight and Assassins see hidden , Archers atleast had there moment of glory every 30min.

I know also all other stealth classes should see Minstrels easy but the range Assassins sees both Archers and Minstrels now is straight unfair.
Wed 17 Apr 2019 3:19 PM by cere2
Stimmed wrote:
Wed 17 Apr 2019 7:55 AM
Just give archers the same stealth as Assassins.
Make it so anyone with stealth cant use SL potions.
Make hunters pets do something/give hunters something to help them slightly. Hunters are basically fodder atm unless they catch you running.

I mean you cant ever make it so archers are on par with assassins in melee. But at least if your not eating a PA every single fight and you got your big Ras up. It should be a closer fight. RNG on evades will always cuck someone though etc.


Holy ^%$# Meggle's.
Get ready to be the outcast in the SB/Inf/NS community. What you just said may get you banned from the cliche!

"Just give archers the same stealth as Assassins."
"Make it so anyone with stealth cant use SL potions."

Someone give this man/woman a medal!

edited to be inclusive.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:04 PM by Kappu
Assassins should always see an Archer/Minstrel first. There is zero logical reason why either should be on par with assassins.

Beastcraft does give you an advantage in a duel it cuts chance to evade in half. It has a decent buff line which is the main reason aside from pet to use it.

Archery is fine if you spec into it you get damage, though I do agree they should add a little flare to it just so it's interesting.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:16 PM by cere2
Kappu wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:04 PM
Assassins should always see an Archer/Minstrel first. There is zero logical reason why either should be on par with assassins.

Beastcraft does give you an advantage in a duel it cuts chance to evade in half. It has a decent buff line which is the main reason aside from pet to use it.

Archery is fine if you spec into it you get damage, though I do agree they should add a little flare to it just so it's interesting.

Archers should always see Assassins first. There is zero logical reason why they should be on par with Archers.

See that? Cool that we can both throw garbage and have it mean the same thing.

Can you tell me exactly when stealth detection range was like this on live? What date/year....I'm sorry to inform you that you won't find it anywhere because archer's never had 150 stealth detection range.....ever.

Beastcraft is fine? Yeah so is pathfinding right? How about assassins get no buffs and archers keep pathfinding/bc. I'd be good with that. How about you?
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:28 PM by AngelRose
Kappu wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:04 PM
Assassins should always see an Archer/Minstrel first. There is zero logical reason why either should be on par with assassins.

Beastcraft does give you an advantage in a duel it cuts chance to evade in half. It has a decent buff line which is the main reason aside from pet to use it.

Archery is fine if you spec into it you get damage, though I do agree they should add a little flare to it just so it's interesting.

This really is a clueless post. Charges and pots give better buffs then a spec line. The pet is useless. There is no reason to spec high in either archery or BS for an archer with a pet....LOL

And the stealth detection is a joke. There is zero logic that sins have better detection then archers.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:57 PM by Auranyte
AngelRose wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:28 PM
Kappu wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:04 PM
Assassins should always see an Archer/Minstrel first. There is zero logical reason why either should be on par with assassins.

Beastcraft does give you an advantage in a duel it cuts chance to evade in half. It has a decent buff line which is the main reason aside from pet to use it.

Archery is fine if you spec into it you get damage, though I do agree they should add a little flare to it just so it's interesting.

This really is a clueless post. Charges and pots give better buffs then a spec line. The pet is useless. There is no reason to spec high in either archery or BS for an archer with a pet....LOL

And the stealth detection is a joke. There is zero logic that sins have better detection then archers.

Charges do give better than beastcraft/pathfinding. But the pots are worse depending on spec. For a hunter getting 32 BC for their insta puppy, the dex/qui buff is better than the pot. Their lvl 30 dex/qui buff should give 42 dex/qui vs the pots 39 dex/qui. (only 3 points at that point but still better and lasts twice as long) Speccing for buffs gives the buff delve value a 1.25 times modifier. If the hunter goes 40 BC for whatever reason they will get 52 dex/qui from their buff.

The same applies to Ranger Pathfinding buffs. The only thing I am uncertain on, is if the spec AF buff delve also gets the 1.25 multiplier or not. If it does, it might better than an af charge. (I forget the values on spec af atm)
Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:28 PM by semadin
Auranyte wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:57 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:28 PM
Kappu wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:04 PM
Assassins should always see an Archer/Minstrel first. There is zero logical reason why either should be on par with assassins.

Beastcraft does give you an advantage in a duel it cuts chance to evade in half. It has a decent buff line which is the main reason aside from pet to use it.

Archery is fine if you spec into it you get damage, though I do agree they should add a little flare to it just so it's interesting.

This really is a clueless post. Charges and pots give better buffs then a spec line. The pet is useless. There is no reason to spec high in either archery or BS for an archer with a pet....LOL

And the stealth detection is a joke. There is zero logic that sins have better detection then archers.

Charges do give better than beastcraft/pathfinding. But the pots are worse depending on spec. For a hunter getting 32 BC for their insta puppy, the dex/qui buff is better than the pot. Their lvl 30 dex/qui buff should give 42 dex/qui vs the pots 39 dex/qui. (only 3 points at that point but still better and lasts twice as long) Speccing for buffs gives the buff delve value a 1.25 times modifier. If the hunter goes 40 BC for whatever reason they will get 52 dex/qui from their buff.

The same applies to Ranger Pathfinding buffs. The only thing I am uncertain on, is if the spec AF buff delve also gets the 1.25 multiplier or not. If it does, it might better than an af charge. (I forget the values on spec af atm)

The AF buff does get the modifier, and the red AF is better than the charge by 5 points. Definitely not worth the spec points, especially when you consider everyone out there is running buff pots at a base level, so even if you do spec low 30s to get the technically 'better' buffs (in PF, the spec dex/qui at 29 gets you 2 more dex/qui than the pot buffs), you have to consider that you are spending all those points to have zero effect on the fight. If you do spec higher, you have to spend a far greater amount of spec points for what amounts to a marginal stat advantage.

The buffs in BC and PF, from a spec perspective, only make sense in a world where everyone else who doesn't have the ability to buff themselves isn't buffed (or is grouped, and that's a different scenario altogether). Right now it makes far more sense to even just use base buff pots (not even counting charges, which surpass the spec line buffs), and then put your spec points in the actual ability spec lines to get your value and advantage.

If they changed high level BC and PF to include full lines of buffs which far surpassed pots/charges, then we'd be looking at a scenario that was more like the original crafted design of the classes.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:46 PM by Auranyte
semadin wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:28 PM
Auranyte wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:57 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:28 PM
This really is a clueless post. Charges and pots give better buffs then a spec line. The pet is useless. There is no reason to spec high in either archery or BS for an archer with a pet....LOL

And the stealth detection is a joke. There is zero logic that sins have better detection then archers.

Charges do give better than beastcraft/pathfinding. But the pots are worse depending on spec. For a hunter getting 32 BC for their insta puppy, the dex/qui buff is better than the pot. Their lvl 30 dex/qui buff should give 42 dex/qui vs the pots 39 dex/qui. (only 3 points at that point but still better and lasts twice as long) Speccing for buffs gives the buff delve value a 1.25 times modifier. If the hunter goes 40 BC for whatever reason they will get 52 dex/qui from their buff.

The same applies to Ranger Pathfinding buffs. The only thing I am uncertain on, is if the spec AF buff delve also gets the 1.25 multiplier or not. If it does, it might better than an af charge. (I forget the values on spec af atm)

The AF buff does get the modifier, and the red AF is better than the charge by 5 points. Definitely not worth the spec points, especially when you consider everyone out there is running buff pots at a base level, so even if you do spec low 30s to get the technically 'better' buffs (in PF, the spec dex/qui at 29 gets you 2 more dex/qui than the pot buffs), you have to consider that you are spending all those points to have zero effect on the fight. If you do spec higher, you have to spend a far greater amount of spec points for what amounts to a marginal stat advantage.

The buffs in BC and PF, from a spec perspective, only make sense in a world where everyone else who doesn't have the ability to buff themselves isn't buffed (or is grouped, and that's a different scenario altogether). Right now it makes far more sense to even just use base buff pots (not even counting charges, which surpass the spec line buffs), and then put your spec points in the actual ability spec lines to get your value and advantage.

If they changed high level BC and PF to include full lines of buffs which far surpassed pots/charges, then we'd be looking at a scenario that was more like the original crafted design of the classes.

The choice is up to the person if they wish to go that route. But a vast majority of archers on this server believe that bow is pointless after 35 and there is also a general consensus that going over composite 52 spec in a weapon line is pointless unless you want certain styles. So where are you putting those points then? Sure I can dump them into CD as a Ranger, but what do Hunters do after they put 32 points into BC? Rangers also get a nice damage add for those spec points which I wouldn't call "marginal or zero effect". (Well if we got a damage add weapon proc like alb I could possible agree then)
Thu 18 Apr 2019 10:37 PM by AngelRose
You are kind of proving my point. The gains for high BC is not worth the spec pts. The gains for high archery is not worth the spec points.

Not that hard to figure out why BC/Archery on a hunter needs to be looked at.
Thu 18 Apr 2019 11:32 PM by Mavella
Spear beyond comp 52 can and will raise Hunter weaponskill allowing them to bypass defenses more effectively. Not exactly useless when fighting vs evade 7 sins and 42 shield scouts.
Fri 19 Apr 2019 3:20 PM by cere2
Thing is, PF and BC were designed when no other solo classes had access to buffs.
Read that first line again please. This gave a big advantage to fights with assassin's to make archers not just cannon fodder.
Also, keep in mind at this time purge did not have a 15, 10, 7.5, 5 minute RUT. It was 30 minutes. Making scouts slam also very viable against assassin's.
The arguments being made here don't take into account how bad archer's have been affected by these "custom" changes.
And back in classic and even 1.65....Assassin's had see hidden, and could see archer before being seen. The difference is that the range was about 300/500 with sin's having the higher value. Being able to see an assassin at 300 units is much different than 150. You had time to avoid PA's.
I could go on with what I have said before but to no avail. Main thing is though BC/PF are broken as soon as self buffs are introduced. This is why Live did away with PF completely and reworked BC to have some distinct advantages. This is after buff bots became a thing on live.
No there are not buff-bots here, but access to buff potions did the same thing.
Fri 19 Apr 2019 4:00 PM by noflex
As a pure bow sniper with no melee I run with high PF and no charges (sometimes combined pot but mostly just dex pot with self buffs), but only because I am a cheap ass and recharging things constantly gets expensive, I lose out on a minimal amnt of dex (10-15pts or so)


Edit: I’m really surprised there’s been no new update or acknowledgement by admins on these issues
Fri 19 Apr 2019 6:23 PM by Tanakeo
bump lol buff my future scout!
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:46 PM by Cadebrennus
Mavella wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 11:32 PM
Spear beyond comp 52 can and will raise Hunter weaponskill allowing them to bypass defenses more effectively. Not exactly useless when fighting vs evade 7 sins and 42 shield scouts.

Name, just let them spec low Spear/Sword and then whine about their pathetic melee. It just makes too much sense for them to spec high Spear/Sword and wreck shit. Easier to whine.
Fri 19 Apr 2019 9:20 PM by AngelRose
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:46 PM
Mavella wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 11:32 PM
Spear beyond comp 52 can and will raise Hunter weaponskill allowing them to bypass defenses more effectively. Not exactly useless when fighting vs evade 7 sins and 42 shield scouts.

Name, just let them spec low Spear/Sword and then whine about their pathetic melee. It just makes too much sense for them to spec high Spear/Sword and wreck shit. Easier to whine.

Didn't you post that hunter melee damage is comparable to ranger melee damage?
Fri 19 Apr 2019 10:52 PM by Kappu
See Hidden was in the game you used to be able to see Archers/Minstrels in Classic at clip plane. It goes to show you obviously didn't play the game long enough ago.

Assassins should always have better detection that's kind of the point of being an assassin in any game or mythical lore. This is what the game is based on by the way.

Mastery of Stealth was a busted ass feature added in when they redid RA's and New Frontiers that made it so that Archers with high MOS RA could see assassins. This was one of the biggest gripes assassins had with the new change.

You all need to go back and look at the classic abilities.........
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:18 PM by cere2
Kappu wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 10:52 PM
See Hidden was in the game you used to be able to see Archers/Minstrels in Classic at clip plane. It goes to show you obviously didn't play the game long enough ago.

Assassins should always have better detection that's kind of the point of being an assassin in any game or mythical lore. This is what the game is based on by the way.

Mastery of Stealth was a busted ass feature added in when they redid RA's and New Frontiers that made it so that Archers with high MOS RA could see assassins. This was one of the biggest gripes assassins had with the new change.

You all need to go back and look at the classic abilities.........

Yes I think you do Kappu, and BS about clip range stealth detection on assassin. That happened when people didn't have comp 50 stealth, before anyone knew wtf they were doing....gimme a break. Once people templated...which was months after launch, then comp stealth started to be a thing.

You want to see classic abilities, ok let's do that. Starting off archers with....Avoid Pain....I'll take that, how about dodger I'll take that too.....camouflage...yeah sounds good....truesight....oh please yes.....should I then go on to archer class RA's that we don't have either?

MOS was trainable by all stealth classes. Assassin's just whined because they couldn't go all offensive RA's like they can now...If they didn't want to be detected by archer's they also had to train MOS....

I mean, if you want to compare classic to this? Not even in the same country.
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:36 PM by AngelRose
cere2 wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:18 PM
Kappu wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 10:52 PM
See Hidden was in the game you used to be able to see Archers/Minstrels in Classic at clip plane. It goes to show you obviously didn't play the game long enough ago.

Assassins should always have better detection that's kind of the point of being an assassin in any game or mythical lore. This is what the game is based on by the way.

Mastery of Stealth was a busted ass feature added in when they redid RA's and New Frontiers that made it so that Archers with high MOS RA could see assassins. This was one of the biggest gripes assassins had with the new change.

You all need to go back and look at the classic abilities.........

Yes I think you do Kappu, and BS about clip range stealth detection on assassin. That happened when people didn't have comp 50 stealth, before anyone knew wtf they were doing....gimme a break. Once people templated...which was months after launch, then comp stealth started to be a thing.

You want to see classic abilities, ok let's do that. Starting off archers with....Avoid Pain....I'll take that, how about dodger I'll take that too.....camouflage...yeah sounds good....truesight....oh please yes.....should I then go on to archer class RA's that we don't have either?

MOS was trainable by all stealth classes. Assassin's just whined because they couldn't go all offensive RA's like they can now...If they didn't want to be detected by archer's they also had to train MOS....

I mean, if you want to compare classic to this? Not even in the same country.

I wish the devs would talk to you about archers. You responses are spot on, with facts not emotions.
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:45 PM by Cadebrennus
AngelRose wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:46 PM
Mavella wrote:
Thu 18 Apr 2019 11:32 PM
Spear beyond comp 52 can and will raise Hunter weaponskill allowing them to bypass defenses more effectively. Not exactly useless when fighting vs evade 7 sins and 42 shield scouts.

Name, just let them spec low Spear/Sword and then whine about their pathetic melee. It just makes too much sense for them to spec high Spear/Sword and wreck shit. Easier to whine.

Didn't you post that hunter melee damage is comparable to ranger melee damage?

Yes, and that's WITHOUT adding in pet damage. Yes, it was tested by me and a few others. Confirmed.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:00 AM by AngelRose
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:45 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:46 PM
Name, just let them spec low Spear/Sword and then whine about their pathetic melee. It just makes too much sense for them to spec high Spear/Sword and wreck shit. Easier to whine.

Didn't you post that hunter melee damage is comparable to ranger melee damage?

Yes, and that's WITHOUT adding in pet damage. Yes, it was tested by me and a few others. Confirmed.

hahahah..i saw your 'test'. Move along..nothing to see here.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:18 PM by qq6
What i wanna know, is .... who is Akopra, he doesnt play my timezone, but, thats the only hunter that shows up on herald, with all the hunters going "we cant kill", he must be killing some 50s to be getting those rps, could we get him on here to give us a few lines?
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:03 PM by Padatoo
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:45 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 7:46 PM
Name, just let them spec low Spear/Sword and then whine about their pathetic melee. It just makes too much sense for them to spec high Spear/Sword and wreck shit. Easier to whine.

Didn't you post that hunter melee damage is comparable to ranger melee damage?

Yes, and that's WITHOUT adding in pet damage. Yes, it was tested by me and a few others. Confirmed.

can I see that test results?
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:04 PM by t4coops




damn scout slammed me then hit me for 597 no crit out of stealth, seems they got pretty good dmg to me... lol
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:05 PM by mhenfhis
t4coops wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:04 PM




damn scout slammed me then hit me for 597 no crit out of stealth, seems they got pretty good dmg to me... lol

lol , was a normal crit shot
Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:28 PM by lourock
t4coops wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:04 PM




damn scout slammed me then hit me for 597 no crit out of stealth, seems they got pretty good dmg to me... lol

It’s been said many times here it’s not about the damage. Most of the whines about damage have come from people who don’t understand old archery or want a more live like archery line. It’s about archers getting perfed in the face without any visible warning like it’s some kind of pseudo visie class with a bow.

Minstrels and archers shouldn’t share the same stealth detection. Minstrels have such a bigger toolbox than archers here would ever get even the ones with pet or shield. I don’t know who beta tested archers and approved of this servers stealth but it’s terrible. It’s basically allowing assassins with vanish to run around unchecked and with nobody able to really smoke them out of areas like SF DL and Snowdonia. And before anyone says SL pots that’s not DAoC bro that’s some left field almost John_broadsword custom crap. Might as well add maulers at this point.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:38 PM by Padatoo
lourock wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:28 PM
t4coops wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:04 PM




damn scout slammed me then hit me for 597 no crit out of stealth, seems they got pretty good dmg to me... lol


I don’t know who beta tested archers and approved of this servers stealth but it’s terrible.

I did,along with several other folks - archers were never approved by anyone in beta (more to that,they were almost unplayable due to non working mechanics and extensive interrupts)
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:01 PM by woody
qq6 wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:18 PM
What i wanna know, is .... who is Akopra, he doesnt play my timezone, but, thats the only hunter that shows up on herald, with all the hunters going "we cant kill", he must be killing some 50s to be getting those rps, could we get him on here to give us a few lines?

Idk if joking, but Ako stopped playing when they put porting in iirc. Maybe still lurks here tho
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:21 PM by stinsfire
AngelRose wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:36 PM
cere2 wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:18 PM
Kappu wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 10:52 PM
See Hidden was in the game you used to be able to see Archers/Minstrels in Classic at clip plane. It goes to show you obviously didn't play the game long enough ago.

Assassins should always have better detection that's kind of the point of being an assassin in any game or mythical lore. This is what the game is based on by the way.

Mastery of Stealth was a busted ass feature added in when they redid RA's and New Frontiers that made it so that Archers with high MOS RA could see assassins. This was one of the biggest gripes assassins had with the new change.

You all need to go back and look at the classic abilities.........

Yes I think you do Kappu, and BS about clip range stealth detection on assassin. That happened when people didn't have comp 50 stealth, before anyone knew wtf they were doing....gimme a break. Once people templated...which was months after launch, then comp stealth started to be a thing.

You want to see classic abilities, ok let's do that. Starting off archers with....Avoid Pain....I'll take that, how about dodger I'll take that too.....camouflage...yeah sounds good....truesight....oh please yes.....should I then go on to archer class RA's that we don't have either?

MOS was trainable by all stealth classes. Assassin's just whined because they couldn't go all offensive RA's like they can now...If they didn't want to be detected by archer's they also had to train MOS....

I mean, if you want to compare classic to this? Not even in the same country.

I wish the devs would talk to you about archers. You responses are spot on, with facts not emotions.

Devs talking about archers? They stopped doing that over a month ago after they announced they will look into bufing archers. What followed was dead silence and the complete absence of Devs in any archer topics from that point on. I am truely disappointed with the development team at the moment. its almost like they got the order to not talk about archers or they will be fired from the project. Furthermore the whole dev team seems to not have any clear targets or goals, to me it seems like the server becomes a clusterfuck of ideas without any longterm goal or vision. It doesn't feel like classic, it doesn't feel like post-toa daoc.. its just becoming weird, people leveling by suciding in RvR, teleporters, stealth lore potions.. like wtf is this? Do you just throw in ideas that sound nice on first sight instead of developing a coherent plan on how the server is supposed to work in the future.. So many things to fix or to do and they develop new instances, pvp events and all sorts of stuff. If it goes on like this, I won't be here for long anymore. Crucial issues getting ignored while devs play around with new zones.

And yes.. I am aware that they are doing this for free and I am aware that coding and any other development is hard work.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:33 PM by Cadebrennus
Padatoo wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:03 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:45 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 9:20 PM
Didn't you post that hunter melee damage is comparable to ranger melee damage?

Yes, and that's WITHOUT adding in pet damage. Yes, it was tested by me and a few others. Confirmed.

can I see that test results?

Sure. I'm pretty sure I have screenshots on my computer. Problem is my gaming PC with the screenshots on the hard drive is in Los Angeles and I'm going to be in Europe for at least another month. How patient are you?

Or you could simply get a melee specced Hunter and a melee Specced Ranger to run some new dummy tests and they can post their screenshots instead of always waiting for someone else to do all of the testing work for you.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:36 PM by stinsfire
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:33 PM
Padatoo wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:03 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Apr 2019 11:45 PM
Yes, and that's WITHOUT adding in pet damage. Yes, it was tested by me and a few others. Confirmed.

can I see that test results?

Sure. I'm pretty sure I have screenshots on my computer. Problem is my gaming PC with the screenshots on the hard drive is in Los Angeles and I'm going to be in Europe for at least another month. How patient are you?

Or you could simply get a melee specced Hunter and a melee Specced Ranger to run some new dummy tests and they can post their screenshots instead of always waiting for someone else to do all of the testing work for you.

So you concluded Hunter and Ranger melee perfomance is the same by doing tests on dummies?! lol
Or did you just conclude that a hunter can do the same damage as a ranger to a defenseless testdummy?

If the second is the case... thats pretty irrelevant.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:46 PM by Cadebrennus
stinsfire wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:36 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:33 PM
Padatoo wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:03 PM
can I see that test results?

Sure. I'm pretty sure I have screenshots on my computer. Problem is my gaming PC with the screenshots on the hard drive is in Los Angeles and I'm going to be in Europe for at least another month. How patient are you?

Or you could simply get a melee specced Hunter and a melee Specced Ranger to run some new dummy tests and they can post their screenshots instead of always waiting for someone else to do all of the testing work for you.

So you concluded Hunter and Ranger melee perfomance is the same by doing tests on dummies?! lol
Or did you just conclude that a hunter can do the same damage as a ranger to a defenseless testdummy?

If the second is the case... thats pretty irrelevant.

Yes, that's how tests are done. Remove for variables, review raw data.

Of course, there's the fact that my Hunter could put a target down faster than my Ranger could in pure melee during the PvP beta event. But no one wants to hear about that.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 10:01 PM by stinsfire
Yes, that's how tests are done. Remove for variables, review raw data.

You mean that is how irrelevant tests are done because they ignore a bunch of relevant variables that could also be tested, which would just take more work/time? Defense penetration? two weapons+weapon speed->quanitty of procs? style effects? etc. Raw data can be collected about all of them.

All your test confirms is how a hunter performs against a testdummy and nothing more. That is basically like judging boxers purely by their punching power against a machine and ignoring all other qualities that decide how a fight ends.

Of course, there's the fact that my Hunter could put a target down faster than my Ranger could in pure melee during the PvP beta event. But no one wants to hear about that.

You like to post "facts" without providing proofs, he? What about you stop calling them facts until you back them up.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 10:13 PM by Padatoo
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:46 PM
Yes, that's how tests are done. Remove for variables, review raw data.

Of course, there's the fact that my Hunter could put a target down faster than my Ranger could in pure melee during the PvP beta event. But no one wants to hear about that.

What raw data did you review exactly,and how? Having [37+15 blades and 34+15 DW] already does more DPS then 50+15, 2handed, without regard to PF/BC lines or styles (and ranger has both better buff line and selection of styles).Thats a rr5 ranger and he can choose to put more points in melee later on,while hunter is stuck back there.
Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:02 AM by Cadebrennus
I honestly don't have time anymore to go back and re-test something every time a knuckle dragger posts something moronic denying stuff that's already been tested and posted. Use the search function or simply go through the old posts yourself. I have more important things going on and it's the toxic players like yourselves that keep me from bothering with this game anymore.
Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:32 AM by AngelRose
This is why I find his 'facts' irrelevant. He tested against a dummy and keeps repeating ignorant crap in threads.
Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:41 AM by Padatoo
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:02 AM
I honestly don't have time anymore to go back and re-test something every time a knuckle dragger posts something moronic denying stuff that's already been tested and posted. Use the search function or simply go through the old posts yourself. I have more important things going on and it's the toxic players like yourselves that keep me from bothering with this game anymore.

I actually did a search,and you keep parroting the same stuff,without providing any non-anecdotal evidence "It was tested ,i swear!",since january.
And now you lashing out instead of giving a reasonable answer or backing your words in other way...........gtfo shithead.

I did find some usefull info from gruenes_schaf regarding AF changes tho
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:30 AM by AngelRose
Padatoo wrote:
Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:41 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:02 AM
I honestly don't have time anymore to go back and re-test something every time a knuckle dragger posts something moronic denying stuff that's already been tested and posted. Use the search function or simply go through the old posts yourself. I have more important things going on and it's the toxic players like yourselves that keep me from bothering with this game anymore.

I actually did a search,and you keep parroting the same stuff,without providing any non-anecdotal evidence "It was tested ,i swear!",since january.
And now you lashing out instead of giving a reasonable answer or backing your words in other way...........gtfo shithead.

I did find some usefull info from gruenes_schaf regarding AF changes tho

I don't know why he keeps posting this shit. His testing was against a dummy. He seriously thinks hitting a dummy, and not giving any consideration to other factors, is some kind of reliable test.

This was a reply from another player, in another thread...and he totally ignored the facts.

skulllz wrote:
Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:38 AM
absolute delusion going on to those that think dual wield is not far superior to 2h at this patch level. should berserkers all spec full 2h then? it's better to penetrate defenses / you get twice the proc chance on a server with very low hps / rangers get side and back snares and evade stun and side stun while the hunter gets either ONLY a back stun -or- ONLY an evade stun depending what they spec. BTW, those specs are at 25 and below on any of the 3 ranger lines and only at 39 on either hunter melee spec. the dog is pure dog sh*t (no pun intended) - it adds one unstyled 70 dmg swing on the first initial run through and then never hits again due to base run speed if you are a kiter/archer, or maybe hits another 2-3 times if you full melee... this dmg is even less than the equivalent from self dmg add rangers get and the slightly higher str buff than the potion.

I can no longer be nice about this, but ultimately all of your "rvr experience" is so obviously biased (yes, I actually have played all archetypes in both this server and in real life OF - hunter is by far the most well-known gimped pile of garbage).

The more we debate and argue instead of come up with suggestions for how to improve all archery (stealthing in general, even, if you desire) the less incentive a Dev has to take any of us serious since we're already undercutting each other's abilities (or blowing them out of proportion). At least the one guy came up with suggestions, even if I personally don't find much trouble fighting casters, currently, only sins / melee rangers and some hybrid tanks.
[/quote]
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:41 AM by qq6
Wasnt joking, just curious as i've never met the guy, and he still is at the top of the list... Wanted some kind of input from some1 who played hunter a lot. Cant have quit ages ago, porting was done like 2 months ago, and hes rr9.
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:48 AM by woody
qq6 wrote:
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:41 AM
Wasnt joking, just curious as i've never met the guy, and he still is at the top of the list... Wanted some kind of input from some1 who played hunter a lot. Cant have quit ages ago, porting was done like 2 months ago, and hes rr9.

Exactly - that just gives you a sense of how far ahead Akopra was.
Sun 21 Apr 2019 10:11 AM by Cadebrennus
Mouthbreathers, check my posts during beta testing. You know, when most TESTING was done. During BETA.
Sun 21 Apr 2019 10:13 AM by mhenfhis
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sun 21 Apr 2019 10:11 AM
Mouthbreathers, check my posts during beta testing. You know, when most TESTING was done. During BETA.

You are on the same line as on postcount haha, never change.
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:50 PM by Emeryc
Can someone explain how debating which archer is more gimped contributes to getting archers some love from the devs?

Actually, don't explain that to me... I don't care. How about we simply refocus on the issue.
Mon 22 Apr 2019 2:45 PM by dioz
I enjoy the 44 thrust 42 shield 35 bow at rr8 .

Being able to snare your oponents, adds much more utility at the class.
It also gives me a chance to actually try to do something after a low rr sin purge my slam and win the fight (not always)
And i say a low rr sin cause against high rr sins i dont have a chance, whatever i do. (soon ill post a video when i lost against Phixion and left him with 5% - mate stop Rofl when u kill a scout 2 ranks lower than u cause imho u should be crying with your lack of skill - its not a success when a scout 2 ranks lower than u leave u like this after a fight) . i enjoyed the fight anyway !

Now regarding bow dmg . I think bow dmg is ok considering i trained it only to 35. But plz! a green con elf ( i relized it was green after i killed him ofc) evaded my Crit shot AND my regular shot in a row! Ofc getting rupted after a reactive dmg proc its unfair also.

Scouts are fine in this server . being able to critshot someone even if he moves , made the class able to solo. So avoid routes known that are used from assassins , try to pull your fights away from them ( we have the best range in game ! combined it with the super RA called longshot and u gonna be ok) , pick the right spots/hills to set up your ambush , use every buff charge/pot the game offers and u gonna be fine!

@Devs : just give us the 250 detection range to spot the sins or even it to 125 for both classes ( this will give us the chance to avoid them NOT to kill them)
fix the reactive rupts







Dioz - rr8L5 Scout
Necras - rr3 Necro (farmtoon)
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:08 PM by waffel
The crit evading/blocking is ridiculous, and it seems in the past few weeks it got worse.

I'll line up a crit shot (after of course being unstealthed after pulling it, why does this still exist?) on a random blue con running down half-afk only to have them magically evade it like Neo.

IMO, ANY shot from stealth shouldn't be able to be blocked or evaded because the target, logically, has no idea where it is coming from. Every other shot, sure. But how do you dodge/block something you don't see?
Mon 22 Apr 2019 10:20 PM by Emeryc
waffel wrote:
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:08 PM
The crit evading/blocking is ridiculous, and it seems in the past few weeks it got worse.

I'll line up a crit shot (after of course being unstealthed after pulling it, why does this still exist?) on a random blue con running down half-afk only to have them magically evade it like Neo.

IMO, ANY shot from stealth shouldn't be able to be blocked or evaded because the target, logically, has no idea where it is coming from. Every other shot, sure. But how do you dodge/block something you don't see?

This. This. A thousand times, this. Larian fought really hard for this change when he was the Ranger TL back in the day.

And I agree, evades versus arrows is much higher than I remember it ever being on old live.
Mon 22 Apr 2019 10:57 PM by Riac
waffel wrote:
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:08 PM
The crit evading/blocking is ridiculous, and it seems in the past few weeks it got worse.

I'll line up a crit shot (after of course being unstealthed after pulling it, why does this still exist?) on a random blue con running down half-afk only to have them magically evade it like Neo.

IMO, ANY shot from stealth shouldn't be able to be blocked or evaded because the target, logically, has no idea where it is coming from. Every other shot, sure. But how do you dodge/block something you don't see?

well if we are gonna go with logically, you should be able to just whiff shots (since no one is perfect) and you shouldnt be able to crit shot moving ppl (itd be very hard to get that head shot on a sprinting person, much less a speed 5 target). so i think you dont wanna go down this logical route in regards to archery.
Tue 23 Apr 2019 8:14 AM by Sepplord
Emeryc wrote:
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:50 PM
Can someone explain how debating which archer is more gimped contributes to getting archers some love from the devs?

Actually, don't explain that to me... I don't care. How about we simply refocus on the issue.

It's part of the issue and a problem also in the assassin discussions...

Not all archers need buffs. Especially Ranger doesn't need any buffs, he is a beast melee while still ahving considerable melee capabilities. Yes, PF looks lackluster on paper, because you can upplay the downsides of pots/charges devaluing the skillline, but in the end the DA/Str-buff are quite strong and Rangers have no issues at all currently.
So when people talk about how shitty archers are, people that get s*** on by rangers come in and argue against general archerbuffs. While hunter sits in the gutter and revels in his misery.


When you make archery too strong people die without even seeing their enemies. Getting killed by an assassin popping out from nowwhere sucks, but at least you see them. Getting killed in a similar way but from 2k+ units range will be a bigger issue, so there is a different solution to be found than upping dmg etc...
Tue 23 Apr 2019 8:59 AM by Lillebror
Theire answer to keeping Archers in check is letting Assassins see them from a longer range.

They should be equal, or let all stealthers except mini spec MoS with increaseing detection, or give back old ra's (see hidden and true sight)
Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:18 AM by Tillbeast
Lillebror wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 8:59 AM
Theire answer to keeping Archers in check is letting Assassins see them from a longer range.

They should be equal, or let all stealthers except mini spec MoS with increaseing detection, or give back old ra's (see hidden and true sight)

There is a imbalance of stealthers on the server. Too many assassins in comparison to archers who use to have the RA's to hurt assassins. Now stealth detection is so in an assassins favour means less archers and more assassins are being played. Assassins kill casters far easier than archers so it just increases the problem of the server being flooded with assassins making some game styles (lone caster) either really difficult or outright impossible. I cant see them giving archers true sight back but MoS on assassins and archers is badly needed. MoS gives an archer the ability to hunt assassins but has to sacrifice other RA's to help see and be quicker than other stealthers.

Archers need a slight tweak to the way archery works, maybe not outright dps but more consistent dps, less miss chances and have abilities like evade and block chance be not as good as it currently is. Do this and I cant see much issues with scouts and rangers. Scouts are usually bow spec and more consistent archery is needed for them to maximise there strength whilst rangers are pretty solid as is if the archery issues were fixed. Hunters pet though needs looking at especially its speed. Make it quicker than someone sprinting but not quick enough to catch sorc/chanter speed and give it a snare not a disease. Sort the pet and the general archery rules for the hunter it will perform better than what its current.
Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:35 AM by Lillebror
Tillbeast wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:18 AM
Lillebror wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 8:59 AM
Theire answer to keeping Archers in check is letting Assassins see them from a longer range.

They should be equal, or let all stealthers except mini spec MoS with increaseing detection, or give back old ra's (see hidden and true sight)

There is a imbalance of stealthers on the server. Too many assassins in comparison to archers who use to have the RA's to hurt assassins. Now stealth detection is so in an assassins favour means less archers and more assassins are being played. Assassins kill casters far easier than archers so it just increases the problem of the server being flooded with assassins making some game styles (lone caster) either really difficult or outright impossible. I cant see them giving archers true sight back but MoS on assassins and archers is badly needed. MoS gives an archer the ability to hunt assassins but has to sacrifice other RA's to help see and be quicker than other stealthers.

Archers need a slight tweak to the way archery works, maybe not outright dps but more consistent dps, less miss chances and have abilities like evade and block chance be not as good as it currently is. Do this and I cant see much issues with scouts and rangers. Scouts are usually bow spec and more consistent archery is needed for them to maximise there strength whilst rangers are pretty solid as is if the archery issues were fixed. Hunters pet though needs looking at especially its speed. Make it quicker than someone sprinting but not quick enough to catch sorc/chanter speed and give it a snare not a disease. Sort the pet and the general archery rules for the hunter it will perform better than what its current.

Think MoS 1-5 would be great, because high detecion comes with a step price.
So if all stealth classes would have same basic detection, and only Archers and Assassins could get MoS, that would be good.

Do Archers get interrupted still by armor procs? Should be a good point speccing 50 bow, if you willing to be gimp in melee.
snare or disease on hunter pet can be to much but a speed as you describe should be no problem imo
Tue 23 Apr 2019 12:53 PM by Tillbeast
Lillebror wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:35 AM
Tillbeast wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:18 AM
Lillebror wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 8:59 AM
Theire answer to keeping Archers in check is letting Assassins see them from a longer range.

They should be equal, or let all stealthers except mini spec MoS with increaseing detection, or give back old ra's (see hidden and true sight)

There is a imbalance of stealthers on the server. Too many assassins in comparison to archers who use to have the RA's to hurt assassins. Now stealth detection is so in an assassins favour means less archers and more assassins are being played. Assassins kill casters far easier than archers so it just increases the problem of the server being flooded with assassins making some game styles (lone caster) either really difficult or outright impossible. I cant see them giving archers true sight back but MoS on assassins and archers is badly needed. MoS gives an archer the ability to hunt assassins but has to sacrifice other RA's to help see and be quicker than other stealthers.

Archers need a slight tweak to the way archery works, maybe not outright dps but more consistent dps, less miss chances and have abilities like evade and block chance be not as good as it currently is. Do this and I cant see much issues with scouts and rangers. Scouts are usually bow spec and more consistent archery is needed for them to maximise there strength whilst rangers are pretty solid as is if the archery issues were fixed. Hunters pet though needs looking at especially its speed. Make it quicker than someone sprinting but not quick enough to catch sorc/chanter speed and give it a snare not a disease. Sort the pet and the general archery rules for the hunter it will perform better than what its current.

Think MoS 1-5 would be great, because high detecion comes with a step price.
So if all stealth classes would have same basic detection, and only Archers and Assassins could get MoS, that would be good.

Do Archers get interrupted still by armor procs? Should be a good point speccing 50 bow, if you willing to be gimp in melee.
snare or disease on hunter pet can be to much but a speed as you describe should be no problem imo

Yes armour procs interrupt both archers and casters.
Tue 23 Apr 2019 2:14 PM by Sepplord
MOS detection will make all stealthers weaker VS visibles....that point alone makes stealthers wanting it a bit mindboggling to me...but okay...

it also greatly benefits stealthzergs, because only one needs to gimp his combat to uncover for his friends to kill.


Imo archers wanting MOS-detection ingame have either not really thought about the consequences or are stealthzergers by heart and want to roll solo's even easier


Make bowspecc over 35 worthwhile, if not through damage as that could be a problem, then through utility. Lots of suggestions have been made regarding this.
For all i care, decrease assassin detectionbonus (don't think it's needed, but it seems that change would satisfy quite a lot people) but please, do not buff stealthzerging
Tue 23 Apr 2019 2:29 PM by cere2
Stealthzerg's have always been a part of Daoc and always will. Regardless of what changes. Only nice thing about them is watching them all pop on a solo then get run over by a fg of visies.
Or, as a solo taking one down before you get rolled by the rest.

Either way, praying something won't help a stealthzerg style of play is not reason to deny it from all other players.
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:12 PM by Sepplord
It's about helping stealthzergs much more than all other players though....do you really not see the difference? Giving stealthzergs a member with Mos9 completely overshadows any benefit a solo stealther could get from it.
And yes, several things are ingame simply because a small group of players could abuse it otherwise. Our whole world IRL is built upon rules that mostly exist only because a small subset of people like to abuse potential loopholes. That's exactly how implementations are considered: what is the worst that someone could do with it. What are the consequences of people using this unintentional or in other ways than the reason we want to implement it?



Free Mos9 detection would overall probably be better for all stealthers, than having it cost RA points. And free MOS9-detection would be a complete s***storm for every non-archer.
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:22 PM by cere2
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:12 PM
It's about helping stealthzergs much more than all other players though....do you really not see the difference? Giving stealthzergs a member with Mos9 completely overshadows any benefit a solo stealther could get from it.
And yes, several things are ingame simply because a small group of players could abuse it otherwise. Our whole world IRL is built upon rules that mostly exist only because a small subset of people like to abuse potential loopholes. That's exactly how implementations are considered: what is the worst that someone could do with it. What are the consequences of people using this unintentional or in other ways than the reason we want to implement it?



Free Mos9 detection would overall probably be better for all stealthers, than having it cost RA points. And free MOS9-detection would be a complete s***storm for every non-archer.

Can you tell us why it would be a s***storm?
Just wondering, when was the last time you played Live?
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:26 PM by Sepplord
cere2 wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:22 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:12 PM
It's about helping stealthzergs much more than all other players though....do you really not see the difference? Giving stealthzergs a member with Mos9 completely overshadows any benefit a solo stealther could get from it.
And yes, several things are ingame simply because a small group of players could abuse it otherwise. Our whole world IRL is built upon rules that mostly exist only because a small subset of people like to abuse potential loopholes. That's exactly how implementations are considered: what is the worst that someone could do with it. What are the consequences of people using this unintentional or in other ways than the reason we want to implement it?



Free Mos9 detection would overall probably be better for all stealthers, than having it cost RA points. And free MOS9-detection would be a complete s***storm for every non-archer.

Can you tell us why it would be a s***storm?
Just wondering, when was the last time you played Live?

You think everyone having free-MOS9 detection would be something that assassin players welcome?
I haven't played live since beginning of TOA. Do they have free-MOS9 in OF without MLs/CLs/whatever buttons or why would it be relevant?

Can i take it from the reply though, that you agree that free-MOS9 for everyone would be better than paying for MOS9? At least we would have small consensus, and imo it should be easier to argue why free-MOS9 detection for everyone would be a bad idea ^^
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:41 PM by cere2
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:26 PM
cere2 wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:22 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:12 PM
It's about helping stealthzergs much more than all other players though....do you really not see the difference? Giving stealthzergs a member with Mos9 completely overshadows any benefit a solo stealther could get from it.
And yes, several things are ingame simply because a small group of players could abuse it otherwise. Our whole world IRL is built upon rules that mostly exist only because a small subset of people like to abuse potential loopholes. That's exactly how implementations are considered: what is the worst that someone could do with it. What are the consequences of people using this unintentional or in other ways than the reason we want to implement it?



Free Mos9 detection would overall probably be better for all stealthers, than having it cost RA points. And free MOS9-detection would be a complete s***storm for every non-archer.

Can you tell us why it would be a s***storm?
Just wondering, when was the last time you played Live?

You think everyone having free-MOS9 detection would be something that assassin players welcome?
I haven't played live since beginning of TOA. Do they have free-MOS9 in OF without MLs/CLs/whatever buttons or why would it be relevant?

Can i take it from the reply though, that you agree that free-MOS9 for everyone would be better than paying for MOS9? At least we would have small consensus, and imo it should be easier to argue why free-MOS9 detection for everyone would be a bad idea ^^

I was just wondering about the Live question because some of the things you say are so old school. Almost everything proposed has been tested on live at some point and mostly why it is being suggested. Archers and assassin's killed each other on live since inception. At no time in daoc history have assassin's had this type of stealth detection advantage. That's why myself and other's are upset, this custom server put assassin's on their own pedestal. Yes I think free MOS9 is ok because that's how it is on live server right now.
And I know assassin players will not welcome anything that makes them feel that there is danger from archers.
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:51 PM by Lillebror
Why cant Archers be the top of the food chain for a while?

Atleast even the battlefield some.
Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:28 PM by BaldEagle
BC is officially the most useless line in the game. I'm thankful for PF so it at least isn't alone, but at least they get base str and a dmg add. The hunter's dmg add (thier pet) is good for a couple heal procs per fight on ur target.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:21 AM by t4coops
if you cant make a hunter work its time to find a new game, just saying
Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:08 PM by Turano
Archers can farm the visibles even in high populated areas because of their range and want to farm their only counter as well.
Right now, thanks to no 800 range stealth detection, this server has a healthy population of solo stealthers of all realms and classes

I have seen on uthgard 1 what happens on a classic server with MoS. And I don't need that again
Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:47 PM by cere2
Turano wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:08 PM
Archers can farm the visibles even in high populated areas because of their range and want to farm their only counter as well.
Right now, thanks to no 800 range stealth detection, this server has a healthy population of solo stealthers of all realms and classes

I have seen on uthgard 1 what happens on a classic server with MoS. And I don't need that again



Assassin's can farm the visibles even in high populated areas because of their surge dps and vanish and want to farm their only counter as well.
Right now thanks to no 800 range stealth detection, this server has a healthy population of solo assassin's of all realms and races.

I have seen on uthgard 1 what happens on a classic server with MOS. And I don't want to die to an archer ever again.

There, fixed that garbage for ya.

Like I said, I understand assassin's cries about not wanting to have to have fair fights with archer's.
But, hopefully your time of being top dog with no recourse is limited.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:44 PM by Turano
Hahahaha so your arguement is that assassins can make a kill in lets say emain every 15 minutes if vanish is up and he/she kills fast enough
Or in other words, you have no arguement at all.

What you guys want is the end of solo stealthers and I have no idea why that is. And honestly, I don't care as well

Thank god I'm not playing live any more.. free MoS 9 for everyone is like hell on wheels, but at least all you stealthzergers can find each other faster then I guess
Wed 24 Apr 2019 5:53 PM by cere2
Turano wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:44 PM
Hahahaha so your arguement is that assassins can make a kill in lets say emain every 15 minutes if vanish is up and he/she kills fast enough
Or in other words, you have no arguement at all.

What you guys want is the end of solo stealthers and I have no idea why that is. And honestly, I don't care as well

Thank god I'm not playing live any more.. free MoS 9 for everyone is like hell on wheels, but at least all you stealthzergers can find each other faster then I guess

Assassin's can only kill in 15 minutes what?
Man you pull some junk right out of who knows where.

You think I am a stealthzerger? If I was I could care less about detection range as I would just roll on anyhow.
Live stealth detection free MOS9 is hell on wheels? So you mean because assassin's there aren't always guaranteed to kill an archer solo its junk huh?
I almost exclusively played solo ranger on Live and always had challenging fights from almost all assassin's who were decent.
I mean if you suck playing assassin and just want to faceroll like it is now. I guess that's your cup o tea.
I don't want the end of solo stealthers. But you thinking MOS would do that is kind of funny and just shows you didn't play Live long enough to know it absolutely does not kill solo stealth game.
I would be fine with just making stealth detection same for both assassin and archer too btw. But either way the current system is fubar for any archer.
Wed 24 Apr 2019 6:00 PM by BaldEagle
t4coops wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:21 AM
if you cant make a hunter work its time to find a new game, just saying

lmao ok. The post was about BC being a useless spec line.

If you can't read, learn to, just saying
Wed 24 Apr 2019 8:07 PM by mhenfhis
t4coops wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:21 AM
if you cant make a hunter work its time to find a new game, just saying

So you can post about it on forums!
Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:14 PM by Emeryc
Archers are not asking to dominate assassins. We're asking for something to help us NOT be fodder for them.

Contrary to what many non-archers in this thread are whining about, Archers are not asking for a direct increase to DPS, nor do they need one.

I'd love to see some more suggestions to make the Archery line more attractive and useful without increasing its DPS. Such as:

-Build additional levels of MOS into the bow line at high levels, like 40, 45 and 50. This would give archers greater ability to avoid assassins without increasing DPS. Archers would be more difficult for assassins to engage, but no more difficult to fight. Additionally, it would give Archers more mobility in larger fights in order to gain position on enemies before opening fire... again, without raising DPS.

-Build Long Shot and Volley into the bow line at high spec levels, like 40 and 45 (or even 50!)

-(I can't believe I'm saying this but...) Decrease Bow DPS at specs below 35, but increase it at specs above 40. Right now, one of the major complaints about Archers (and Rangers specifically) is melee DPS coupled with ranged DPS is too much... a spec of 20 Bow is not much less effective than a spec of 40 bow, right now, but allows 601 additional spec points to dump into melee.

-Give RF 2 a boost. As it is, it does nothing that RF 1 doesn't already do. Some have suggested a slight increase in DPS, but this breaks the "no increase in DPS" rule. I would rather see either a chance to avoid interruption or an increased chance to avoid being blocked or evaded.

-In general, give archers a reason to spec into the Bow lines!
Thu 25 Apr 2019 1:49 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Emeryc wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:14 PM
Archers are not asking to dominate assassins. We're asking for something to help us NOT be fodder for them.

Contrary to what many non-archers in this thread are whining about, Archers are not asking for a direct increase to DPS, nor do they need one.

I'd love to see some more suggestions to make the Archery line more attractive and useful without increasing its DPS. Such as:

-Build additional levels of MOS into the bow line at high levels, like 40, 45 and 50. This would give archers greater ability to avoid assassins without increasing DPS. Archers would be more difficult for assassins to engage, but no more difficult to fight. Additionally, it would give Archers more mobility in larger fights in order to gain position on enemies before opening fire... again, without raising DPS.

-Build Long Shot and Volley into the bow line at high spec levels, like 40 and 45 (or even 50!)

-(I can't believe I'm saying this but...) Decrease Bow DPS at specs below 35, but increase it at specs above 40. Right now, one of the major complaints about Archers (and Rangers specifically) is melee DPS coupled with ranged DPS is too much... a spec of 20 Bow is not much less effective than a spec of 40 bow, right now, but allows 601 additional spec points to dump into melee.

-Give RF 2 a boost. As it is, it does nothing that RF 1 doesn't already do. Some have suggested a slight increase in DPS, but this breaks the "no increase in DPS" rule. I would rather see either a chance to avoid interruption or an increased chance to avoid being blocked or evaded.

-In general, give archers a reason to spec into the Bow lines!

+1 - These threads need more reasonable posters such as yourself.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 1:52 PM by Tamy
Amp_Phetamine wrote:
Thu 25 Apr 2019 1:49 PM
Emeryc wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:14 PM
Archers are not asking to dominate assassins. We're asking for something to help us NOT be fodder for them.

Contrary to what many non-archers in this thread are whining about, Archers are not asking for a direct increase to DPS, nor do they need one.

I'd love to see some more suggestions to make the Archery line more attractive and useful without increasing its DPS. Such as:

-Build additional levels of MOS into the bow line at high levels, like 40, 45 and 50. This would give archers greater ability to avoid assassins without increasing DPS. Archers would be more difficult for assassins to engage, but no more difficult to fight. Additionally, it would give Archers more mobility in larger fights in order to gain position on enemies before opening fire... again, without raising DPS.

-Build Long Shot and Volley into the bow line at high spec levels, like 40 and 45 (or even 50!)

-(I can't believe I'm saying this but...) Decrease Bow DPS at specs below 35, but increase it at specs above 40. Right now, one of the major complaints about Archers (and Rangers specifically) is melee DPS coupled with ranged DPS is too much... a spec of 20 Bow is not much less effective than a spec of 40 bow, right now, but allows 601 additional spec points to dump into melee.

-Give RF 2 a boost. As it is, it does nothing that RF 1 doesn't already do. Some have suggested a slight increase in DPS, but this breaks the "no increase in DPS" rule. I would rather see either a chance to avoid interruption or an increased chance to avoid being blocked or evaded.

-In general, give archers a reason to spec into the Bow lines!

+1 - These threads need more reasonable posters such as yourself.

/word, +2
Thu 25 Apr 2019 5:09 PM by Padatoo
Tamy wrote:
Thu 25 Apr 2019 1:52 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote:
Thu 25 Apr 2019 1:49 PM
Emeryc wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:14 PM
Archers are not asking to dominate assassins. We're asking for something to help us NOT be fodder for them.

Contrary to what many non-archers in this thread are whining about, Archers are not asking for a direct increase to DPS, nor do they need one.

I'd love to see some more suggestions to make the Archery line more attractive and useful without increasing its DPS. Such as:

-Build additional levels of MOS into the bow line at high levels, like 40, 45 and 50. This would give archers greater ability to avoid assassins without increasing DPS. Archers would be more difficult for assassins to engage, but no more difficult to fight. Additionally, it would give Archers more mobility in larger fights in order to gain position on enemies before opening fire... again, without raising DPS.

-Build Long Shot and Volley into the bow line at high spec levels, like 40 and 45 (or even 50!)

-(I can't believe I'm saying this but...) Decrease Bow DPS at specs below 35, but increase it at specs above 40. Right now, one of the major complaints about Archers (and Rangers specifically) is melee DPS coupled with ranged DPS is too much... a spec of 20 Bow is not much less effective than a spec of 40 bow, right now, but allows 601 additional spec points to dump into melee.

-Give RF 2 a boost. As it is, it does nothing that RF 1 doesn't already do. Some have suggested a slight increase in DPS, but this breaks the "no increase in DPS" rule. I would rather see either a chance to avoid interruption or an increased chance to avoid being blocked or evaded.

-In general, give archers a reason to spec into the Bow lines!

+1 - These threads need more reasonable posters such as yourself.

/word, +2

+1
Sat 27 Apr 2019 9:02 AM by labova
Emeryc wrote:
Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:14 PM
Archers are not asking to dominate assassins. We're asking for something to help us NOT be fodder for them.

Contrary to what many non-archers in this thread are whining about, Archers are not asking for a direct increase to DPS, nor do they need one.

I'd love to see some more suggestions to make the Archery line more attractive and useful without increasing its DPS. Such as:

-Build additional levels of MOS into the bow line at high levels, like 40, 45 and 50. This would give archers greater ability to avoid assassins without increasing DPS. Archers would be more difficult for assassins to engage, but no more difficult to fight. Additionally, it would give Archers more mobility in larger fights in order to gain position on enemies before opening fire... again, without raising DPS.

-Build Long Shot and Volley into the bow line at high spec levels, like 40 and 45 (or even 50!)

-(I can't believe I'm saying this but...) Decrease Bow DPS at specs below 35, but increase it at specs above 40. Right now, one of the major complaints about Archers (and Rangers specifically) is melee DPS coupled with ranged DPS is too much... a spec of 20 Bow is not much less effective than a spec of 40 bow, right now, but allows 601 additional spec points to dump into melee.

-Give RF 2 a boost. As it is, it does nothing that RF 1 doesn't already do. Some have suggested a slight increase in DPS, but this breaks the "no increase in DPS" rule. I would rather see either a chance to avoid interruption or an increased chance to avoid being blocked or evaded.

-In general, give archers a reason to spec into the Bow lines!

An excellent post. As a Hunter I would have liked to see BC looked into. As it stands now there is very little reason to spec above 32.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 1:30 PM by inoeth
i dont get why ppl want mos to in the bow line... that doesnt make any sense and only punishes people who want to play melee archers. just make it a specable RA like it always was
Sat 27 Apr 2019 3:02 PM by Auranyte
inoeth wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 1:30 PM
i dont get why ppl want mos to in the bow line... that doesnt make any sense and only punishes people who want to play melee archers. just make it a specable RA like it always was

I think its because the live "archery" lines have a stealth lore like spell in it.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 4:42 PM by Emeryc
inoeth wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 1:30 PM
i dont get why ppl want mos to in the bow line... that doesnt make any sense and only punishes people who want to play melee archers. just make it a specable RA like it always was

I don't have a problem with making it a speccable RA. My point in making the suggestion is, as my post clearly states, to give the Bow line a boost to utility without giving a direct increase to DPS. /edit: If MOS were added as an RA, the Bow line would still need some love.

Putting it in the Bow line in no way is a punishment to anyone... that's just silly. What it gives Archers is the choice to spec either for the ability to stand and fight with assassins and others or to have a chance to avoid assassins... but not both.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:35 PM by Khogor
I still think it will be quit difficult to "balance" Archer against Asassin , because all other fights will be to much affected.

I must say I dont have to problem of getting Pa´d to often in stealth and giving Archers a higher mos then asassins will lead to a Point where the Asassin starts the fight with 60% health becaus he gets a critshot first.

My main Problem is the kind of boring an one sided way fights go (as Scout !) ....Slam . no purge = hoping the Asassin is down ore you can finigh his last 5% HP before youre 100% are gone.

Purge Up =GG for the Asassin.

First Hit ...desease and 118 kon debuff .....even if I try to bait purge with numb ore slam right away.....im still in melee range if the asassin isnt brain afk.
Besides that ...inst NS dd hits for 100 dam ?

MOs as Ra´...perhabs a slight dam buff for bow dam with higher specc and as gimmik speed buff in the bow line.
Remedy and i am good to go.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 9:04 PM by The Skies Asunder
Emeryc seems to know what's up. Some utility in the archery line would be a huge improvement. Live making them spells was lame, and took away the feeling of archery, but adding some of those things to the line was still sort of nice. Apart from rolling the unique lines into archery, as that was stupid. I honestly love playing melee ranger, for the utility of having a bow even at lower damage, but it's difficult here without PD, or ToA, and the constant eating of perfs. As for being fodder, I still think that just eliminating the stealth detection difference between archers and assassins would be a great start. If everything is flat detection range, no one gets a free crit shot on hidden targets, and no one gets free perfs on hidden targets. Assassins still have a decent advantage in straight up melee fights, especially if archery eventually becomes more enticing to spec.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 9:42 PM by mhenfhis
Emeryc wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 4:42 PM
inoeth wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 1:30 PM
i dont get why ppl want mos to in the bow line... that doesnt make any sense and only punishes people who want to play melee archers. just make it a specable RA like it always was

I don't have a problem with making it a speccable RA. My point in making the suggestion is, as my post clearly states, to give the Bow line a boost to utility without giving a direct increase to DPS. /edit: If MOS were added as an RA, the Bow line would still need some love.

Putting it in the Bow line in no way is a punishment to anyone... that's just silly. What it gives Archers is the choice to spec either for the ability to stand and fight with assassins and others or to have a chance to avoid assassins... but not both.

Like speccing 50 in the melee line right now you are a assasin killer
Sat 27 Apr 2019 11:46 PM by AngelRose
All I want is the chance to see a sin before I am at 50% health..just a chance to avoid a pa....and a dog that is not worthless.

Not really asking alot, imho.
Sun 28 Apr 2019 10:03 AM by mhenfhis
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 11:46 PM
All I want is the chance to see a sin before I am at 50% health..just a chance to avoid a pa....and a dog that is not worthless.

Not really asking alot, imho.

With posions+ proc weapon that get you out 500 hp in 2 hits nothing to to
Mon 29 Apr 2019 4:56 PM by bodybybryan
I have np giving archers PD like how it was back in the day. The %'s are already lower on this server.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:29 PM by cere2
How long is it going to take for them to address that archers have an issue at all?
It's as if we are the red headed step children of phoenix.

I still have some hope for my favorite game to last. One is that stealth detection gets fixed here, another is NPC buffers so we don't rely on timers so much.
Third is I hope bow becomes usefull again above 35. On live even though I know bow is totally different now....we spec typically either 50 or 45...
And lastly is I hope NF comes sooner rather than later.

P.S. Or I pray that Live gets a brain and goes F2P with a complete wipe/reset.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:53 PM by Emeryc
Khogor wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:35 PM
I still think it will be quit difficult to "balance" Archer against Asassin , because all other fights will be to much affected.

I must say I dont have to problem of getting Pa´d to often in stealth and giving Archers a higher mos then asassins will lead to a Point where the Asassin starts the fight with 60% health becaus he gets a critshot first.
...

MOs as Ra´...perhabs a slight dam buff for bow dam with higher specc and as gimmik speed buff in the bow line.
Remedy and i am good to go.

All MOS does on Phoenix is give increased movement speed in stealth, per http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes/

Additionally, the idea that any Archer can land a critshot on any stealthed Assassin of equal level is absolute nonsense.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 8:23 PM by cere2
Khogor wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:35 PM
I still think it will be quit difficult to "balance" Archer against Asassin , because all other fights will be to much affected.

I must say I dont have to problem of getting Pa´d to often in stealth and giving Archers a higher mos then asassins will lead to a Point where the Asassin starts the fight with 60% health becaus he gets a critshot first.

My main Problem is the kind of boring an one sided way fights go (as Scout !) ....Slam . no purge = hoping the Asassin is down ore you can finigh his last 5% HP before youre 100% are gone.

Purge Up =GG for the Asassin.

First Hit ...desease and 118 kon debuff .....even if I try to bait purge with numb ore slam right away.....im still in melee range if the asassin isnt brain afk.
Besides that ...inst NS dd hits for 100 dam ?

MOs as Ra´...perhabs a slight dam buff for bow dam with higher specc and as gimmik speed buff in the bow line.
Remedy and i am good to go.

If an archer spends 27 points to spec in MOS, and an assassin chooses not to spend anything on MOS, and trains vanish/MOP/Aug Str etc etc instead....don't you think the archer should get at least a shot off first? Isn't that kind of how MOS was designed?
Back when MOS was a thing most sin's wouldn't train it past 5 because they already had MOS 3 with see hidden giving them approx MOS 8 with much less RA invested than archers.
Not sure why this became such an issue on phoenix. Apparently someone decided that archers should be cannon fodder for sin's and here we are.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:28 AM by Sepplord
Emeryc wrote:
Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:53 PM
Khogor wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:35 PM
I still think it will be quit difficult to "balance" Archer against Asassin , because all other fights will be to much affected.

I must say I dont have to problem of getting Pa´d to often in stealth and giving Archers a higher mos then asassins will lead to a Point where the Asassin starts the fight with 60% health becaus he gets a critshot first.
...

MOs as Ra´...perhabs a slight dam buff for bow dam with higher specc and as gimmik speed buff in the bow line.
Remedy and i am good to go.

All MOS does on Phoenix is give increased movement speed in stealth, per http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes/

Additionally, the idea that any Archer can land a critshot on any stealthed Assassin of equal level is absolute nonsense.

you can pre-load the critshot and instantly fire it after the initial delay is up on targets you have just picked/spotted. It's already possible if you know an assassin is coming for you. Not saying it'S a huge problem, but it'S not like an archer has to see an assassin, then load his crit, wait 4seconds and then fire on the assassin while the sin just waits without moving.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:51 AM by Lillebror
Assassins really need to play the other stealth classes before they start talking about how detection is here.

Its so unbalanced that its not even funny and it make the solo scene very PA vanish heavy.

tbh i think they should revert teh detection range so Archers was the predator and Assassins the meat for a few weeks.
problem is that we dont have enough Archers to punish them.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:58 AM by Tamy
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:28 AM
Emeryc wrote:
Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:53 PM
Khogor wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:35 PM
I still think it will be quit difficult to "balance" Archer against Asassin , because all other fights will be to much affected.

I must say I dont have to problem of getting Pa´d to often in stealth and giving Archers a higher mos then asassins will lead to a Point where the Asassin starts the fight with 60% health becaus he gets a critshot first.
...

MOs as Ra´...perhabs a slight dam buff for bow dam with higher specc and as gimmik speed buff in the bow line.
Remedy and i am good to go.

All MOS does on Phoenix is give increased movement speed in stealth, per http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes/

Additionally, the idea that any Archer can land a critshot on any stealthed Assassin of equal level is absolute nonsense.

you can pre-load the critshot and instantly fire it after the initial delay is up on targets you have just picked/spotted. It's already possible if you know an assassin is coming for you. Not saying it'S a huge problem, but it'S not like an archer has to see an assassin, then load his crit, wait 4seconds and then fire on the assassin while the sin just waits without moving.

Unfortunately in the current state (125 vs 250 locs) its only possible if you know the sin is in the region and you can predict his path. I usually use this method when I see a sin stealthing somewhere in front of me and I try to predict his stealth way and preload my crit. Then it works perfectly (of course the crit gets evaded half the time).

But it will never work when we both cross our way stealthed since he sees me way before I see him. That only works against gimps and versus them I dont need a preload crit anyway.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 10:46 AM by Lillebror
Only time Archers and Minstrels get the jump is when Assassins run around out of stealth because they want to come from A to B.
AKA i gladly add on any fight that send the Assassin back to start.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 11:05 AM by Cadebrennus
Lillebror wrote:
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:51 AM
Assassins really need to play the other stealth classes before they start talking about how detection is here.

Its so unbalanced that its not even funny and it make the solo scene very PA vanish heavy.

tbh i think they should revert teh detection range so Archers was the predator and Assassins the meat for a few weeks.
problem is that we dont have enough Archers to punish them.

My Archer is shelved.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 12:00 PM by Lillebror
Archers should fullgrp and kill the solo scene until they get buffed and able to solo like all the Assassins
Tue 30 Apr 2019 2:23 PM by Tamy
It's totally possible to solo as an archer. Even in the high traffic zones. Most of the time I die because I get too greedy. And it's also fun to get revenge on some fg/small man that zerged you many times when you finally are able to fu** up there fight by taking down one of there squishy targets...or to just get some rp's out of a zerg/milegate/keep fight. That's far more risky with a sin (if vanish is down of course).

Nonetheless I'm basically fu**** if a half-decent sin gets me with Pa/Bs (which is very likely since every chimp is able to set up a Pa/Bs with this stealth advantage) and my tools (Purge/Ip) are down. On the other hand when I catch them off-stealth or I am able to pre-load a crit it gets really interesting.

I'm thinking about starting a ranger to get a direct comparison to the scout but this stupid 12h timer seems so obstructive.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 4:12 PM by Horus
Tamy wrote:
Tue 30 Apr 2019 2:23 PM
It's totally possible to solo as an archer. Even in the high traffic zones. Most of the time I die because I get too greedy. And it's also fun to get revenge on some fg/small man that zerged you many times when you finally are able to fu** up there fight by taking down one of there squishy targets...or to just get some rp's out of a zerg/milegate/keep fight. That's far more risky with a sin (if vanish is down of course).

Nonetheless I'm basically fu**** if a half-decent sin gets me with Pa/Bs (which is very likely since every chimp is able to set up a Pa/Bs with this stealth advantage) and my tools (Purge/Ip) are down. On the other hand when I catch them off-stealth or I am able to pre-load a crit it gets really interesting.

I'm thinking about starting a ranger to get a direct comparison to the scout but this stupid 12h timer seems so obstructive.

The dilemma with the ranger is this (maybe this applies to scouts and hunters too but I don't think as drastically). It is essentially 2 diff classes in one toon. If you don't want to be melee fodder, you go high str Shar Blades, practically no bow and load up on Blades, CD, PF, purge, ignore pain. With this build you can be pretty successful in melee when your toys are up. At least you may be able to force the infilt or SB to vanish. However are you really an archer with no bow?

The other is something like a high dex keen with high bow, and just accept the fact you will lose every melee engagement..but can do decent ranged dmg in the right circumstances.

My experience is the "hybrid" approach is a trap. It does not mean you can do both "ok" it means you don't do either very well.

There is no viable middle ground. Either go full commitment to melee or full commitment to bow.

I have 2 lev 50 rangers. One is bow heavy keen, one is melee heavy celt (should have picked shar). That is where I have drawn my experience from.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 4:15 PM by Emeryc
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:28 AM
Emeryc wrote:
Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:53 PM
Khogor wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:35 PM
I still think it will be quit difficult to "balance" Archer against Asassin , because all other fights will be to much affected.

I must say I dont have to problem of getting Pa´d to often in stealth and giving Archers a higher mos then asassins will lead to a Point where the Asassin starts the fight with 60% health becaus he gets a critshot first.
...

MOs as Ra´...perhabs a slight dam buff for bow dam with higher specc and as gimmik speed buff in the bow line.
Remedy and i am good to go.

All MOS does on Phoenix is give increased movement speed in stealth, per http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes/

Additionally, the idea that any Archer can land a critshot on any stealthed Assassin of equal level is absolute nonsense.

you can pre-load the critshot and instantly fire it after the initial delay is up on targets you have just picked/spotted. It's already possible if you know an assassin is coming for you. Not saying it'S a huge problem, but it'S not like an archer has to see an assassin, then load his crit, wait 4seconds and then fire on the assassin while the sin just waits without moving.

I have tested this and, unless the assassin is moving into your detection range WITHOUT attacking you, it simply doesn't work. The shot will not land as a crit shot if the assassin attacks you. In other words, if it's a battle between a stealthed assassin looking to perf and a stealthed archer with a pre-drawn critshot, the assassin will land his perf but the archer will NOT land a critshot.

But, let's pretend it DOES work. How often could this POSSIBLY happen... as often as assassins land perfs on archers? Seriously, how many Assassins are really worried about getting crit shotted while stealthed?
I really don't want to go off on a tangent here, but this hypothetical is just ridiculous.

I'd really like to see more suggestions on how to improve the bow line.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 5:02 PM by Turano
Oh it definitely works. I got shot out of stealth with a crit by a scout the moment I saw him.
I'm not hunting/fighting stealthed archers often so I don't know how frequent or reliable it is, but it is definitely possible
Tue 30 Apr 2019 5:11 PM by cere2
Hold a crit shot and be able to get it off when assassin is near...yeah that's exactly how archer should play....ffs.

First if you have a 5.5 or 5.2 bow, it takes 2-3 secs to load up that crit, what if he PA's you when you loading?

Second you have to target said assassin before launching this arrow, which is typically after they have PA'd you because your standing there like a total idiot. Then because of the animation of PA you had better have /faced before firing or you will get, "you can't see your target" because the animation went though you.

If after all this and you still manage to get that crit shot off, after you purge CD since you just ate a PA too, you can hit IP and /pray you get some evades and some damn nice rng and maybe make them vanish.

Like Horus said, your going 2 ways on ranger, either full on melee or full on bow. If melee you have a chance to kill them if you have all toys up from the get go. Or if they vanish you are worthless for the next 15 minutes. And...you then have to gtfo of that area because they will FA and be back to finish you off in >30 secs with another PA you can't purge out of this time. For hunters? Sorry...hope rng is really on your side or you can /sit.../rel.....Scouts? If they don't have purge you might get yourself a kill but that may be 1 of 6 or so statistically. Other 5 times your like bow ranger..../sit../rel.
If bow you might as well /sit and /rel. But you do have chances to leech a lot more with this spec. Which is generally what Phoenix thinks archers are atm, leeches.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 5:20 PM by woody
or just knocking the crit pops you of stealth and the whole 'plan' goes to shit.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 6:16 PM by Emeryc
Turano wrote:
Tue 30 Apr 2019 5:02 PM
Oh it definitely works. I got shot out of stealth with a crit by a scout the moment I saw him.
I'm not hunting/fighting stealthed archers often so I don't know how frequent or reliable it is, but it is definitely possible

Your description of the encounter is a bit questionable (how did the Scout see you before you saw him?), but it actually confirms exactly what I said: the only way it works is if the Assassin is NOT attacking the Archer.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 6:54 PM by AngelRose
Being popped out of stealth when hitting crit shot is just DUMB.
Wed 1 May 2019 9:27 AM by Lillebror
I start to think that ppl makeing and playing archers to high rr are into self hurting
Wed 1 May 2019 12:28 PM by dbeattie71
Lillebror wrote:
Wed 1 May 2019 9:27 AM
I start to think that ppl makeing and playing archers to high rr are into self hurting

Or don’t spec bow.
Wed 1 May 2019 1:42 PM by Tanakeo
think most archers are banking on some attention from devs eventually, they got their hands full atm though so probably ways off... but would be nice with some kind of acknowledgement from the Phoenix Team. ..

for now tho, find a hill, hope for inc, shoot ppl from cliprange, only thing they have going for them is elevation bonus
Wed 1 May 2019 2:38 PM by Cadebrennus
Tanakeo wrote:
Wed 1 May 2019 1:42 PM
think most archers are banking on some attention from devs eventually, they got their hands full atm though so probably ways off... but would be nice with some kind of acknowledgement from the Phoenix Team. ..

for now tho, find a hill, hope for inc, shoot ppl from cliprange, only thing they have going for them is elevation bonus

Wed 1 May 2019 3:31 PM by Barroom
dioz wrote:
Mon 22 Apr 2019 2:45 PM
I enjoy the 44 thrust 42 shield 35 bow at rr8 .

Being able to snare your oponents, adds much more utility at the class.
It also gives me a chance to actually try to do something after a low rr sin purge my slam and win the fight (not always)
And i say a low rr sin cause against high rr sins i dont have a chance, whatever i do. (soon ill post a video when i lost against Phixion and left him with 5% - mate stop Rofl when u kill a scout 2 ranks lower than u cause imho u should be crying with your lack of skill - its not a success when a scout 2 ranks lower than u leave u like this after a fight) . i enjoyed the fight anyway !

Now regarding bow dmg . I think bow dmg is ok considering i trained it only to 35. But plz! a green con elf ( i relized it was green after i killed him ofc) evaded my Crit shot AND my regular shot in a row! Ofc getting rupted after a reactive dmg proc its unfair also.

Scouts are fine in this server . being able to critshot someone even if he moves , made the class able to solo. So avoid routes known that are used from assassins , try to pull your fights away from them ( we have the best range in game ! combined it with the super RA called longshot and u gonna be ok) , pick the right spots/hills to set up your ambush , use every buff charge/pot the game offers and u gonna be fine!

@Devs : just give us the 250 detection range to spot the sins or even it to 125 for both classes ( this will give us the chance to avoid them NOT to kill them)
fix the reactive rupts







Dioz - rr8L5 Scout
Necras - rr3 Necro (farmtoon)

Been breezing through this post. Love my scout. I'm Saracen +15 dex and recently respecced to slash. I know, I know. My WS is about 700 points higher with Thrust but I like getting the +dmg from slash on SBs, since I run into them mostly and snare at lower spec. I think I may go back to thrust and go 44 and perhaps drop bow to 30-33. Or stick with 32 stealth, since really All I am "hiding from" is visibles.

Why aren't we all at a level playing field with stealth detection, I do not understand it. This would fix a lot of issues imo.

I have been having a lot of success with sins lately. But... I need to use every RA and Item in my tool belt to beat them. Even when I know I have the fight in hand, there is always vanish. F Vanish imo.

Great post +1
Wed 1 May 2019 5:38 PM by qq6
new buffs inc! prepare people prepare!
Thu 2 May 2019 1:40 PM by cere2
qq6 wrote:
Wed 1 May 2019 5:38 PM
new buffs inc! prepare people prepare!

Damn! You had me thinking they were actually doing something for archers! I should have known better
Thu 2 May 2019 2:33 PM by Horus
Sad thing it is not so much archers themselves as the custom rules for everyone else that work against us (and by archers I mean those that primarily use bow as the gods intended).

This to me indicates don't hold your breath for changes, If things were just enabled as designed in 1.65 we'd be fine.

I'm in a rant mood at work today so feel free to /dismiss me...

Things that other classes custom have that hurt us...

1. Detect range from 'sin classes
2. Proc interrupts at range.
3. Easily available Defensive/offensive self buffs that mitigate range dmg but don't help ranged if we have (af buffs, con buffs, haste)
4. Everyone has perma sprint / full endo all the time.
5. Block rates, evade rates
6. Easy available convenient insta heals
7. Vanish so even we get the upperhand against 'sins we can't finish.

Sure you can land a crit shot on a moving targets. But even that we get screwed with a crit shot immunity timer. I would trade that out for the ability to land multiple crit shots with no immunity timer.
Thu 2 May 2019 3:03 PM by AngelRose
Don't forget how often crit shot pops archer out of stealth...happens at the worst times.


Again...doesn't need big changes for hunter. Give pet minor boost and equalize stealth detection.

But, based on pot/charge changes, devs would rather go with big, unnecessary changes over simple tweeks.


/shrug
Fri 3 May 2019 7:05 AM by Khogor
cere2 wrote:
Mon 29 Apr 2019 8:23 PM
Khogor wrote:
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:35 PM
I still think it will be quit difficult to "balance" Archer against Asassin , because all other fights will be to much affected.

I must say I dont have to problem of getting Pa´d to often in stealth and giving Archers a higher mos then asassins will lead to a Point where the Asassin starts the fight with 60% health becaus he gets a critshot first.

My main Problem is the kind of boring an one sided way fights go (as Scout !) ....Slam . no purge = hoping the Asassin is down ore you can finigh his last 5% HP before youre 100% are gone.

Purge Up =GG for the Asassin.

First Hit ...desease and 118 kon debuff .....even if I try to bait purge with numb ore slam right away.....im still in melee range if the asassin isnt brain afk.
Besides that ...inst NS dd hits for 100 dam ?

MOs as Ra´...perhabs a slight dam buff for bow dam with higher specc and as gimmik speed buff in the bow line.
Remedy and i am good to go.

If an archer spends 27 points to spec in MOS, and an assassin chooses not to spend anything on MOS, and trains vanish/MOP/Aug Str etc etc instead....don't you think the archer should get at least a shot off first? Isn't that kind of how MOS was designed?
Back when MOS was a thing most sin's wouldn't train it past 5 because they already had MOS 3 with see hidden giving them approx MOS 8 with much less RA invested than archers.
Not sure why this became such an issue on phoenix. Apparently someone decided that archers should be cannon fodder for sin's and here we are.

OK AS RA I would love to see it
Fri 3 May 2019 5:34 PM by Padatoo
The upcoming patch will give everyone a 20% secondary melee resist on demand - sniper spec will become even less appealing.
Fri 3 May 2019 10:41 PM by AngelRose
People are still trying to play archer on this server? I quit weeks ago. Came to play archer. Leveled hunter, templated hunter, played hunter in OF for about 6 weeks. Made posts hoping for help for hunters. Total silence from devs regarding Hunter.

quit playing this server. Keep checking in to see of hunter has been fixed.

Maybe next time. I haven't given up hope
Fri 3 May 2019 10:58 PM by Cadebrennus
AngelRose wrote:
Fri 3 May 2019 10:41 PM
People are still trying to play archer on this server? I quit weeks ago. Came to play archer. Leveled hunter, templated hunter, played hunter in OF for about 6 weeks. Made posts hoping for help for hunters. Total silence from devs regarding Hunter.

quit playing this server. Keep checking in to see of hunter has been fixed.

Maybe next time. I haven't given up hope

Same. I even wrote the fucking guide.
Sun 5 May 2019 3:24 AM by Emeryc
This change will hit Archers hard, especially Rangers and Hunters. Unless they plan a really spectacular buff to Archery in the near future, Archers are going to be in an even worse state.
Sun 5 May 2019 10:41 AM by Khogor
Get a Hit by an Asassin ..... Deff gone...off gone....Hits Gone 4xx Tp......

Try to lang Slam .......miss 4 Times.....land Slam ........Asassin evades ! Critshot.......

An then get killed by every damn noob Asassin....
Mon 6 May 2019 3:29 PM by stinsfire
AngelRose wrote:
Fri 3 May 2019 10:41 PM
People are still trying to play archer on this server? I quit weeks ago. Came to play archer. Leveled hunter, templated hunter, played hunter in OF for about 6 weeks. Made posts hoping for help for hunters. Total silence from devs regarding Hunter.

quit playing this server. Keep checking in to see of hunter has been fixed.

Maybe next time. I haven't given up hope

I have lost any faith or trust in the devs. They seem to have no clear "vision" of what they want achieve and I don't see any priorities or a plan they follow. They started buffing certain classes who were underperforming like thane, friar and even added custom spells in earthwiz line and then let the other underpowered char rot away in a corner. They have responded to archer threads 3 months ago, said they will do something, stopped posting in archer threads, don't react to any new archery threads and ignore you when you directly ask them about archers: It is almost as if they have an agenda pushed upon them to not adress anything archer related.

Hunter is in such a shitty state.. I just hit level 50 on my hunter today and I don't even feel like playing or temping him knowing how weak he will be.

Plus they stealthnerfed longshot without mentioning it in any patchnotes. You used to be able to combine critshot + longshot for self bt penetrating critshot every 5 minutes. They changed it that longshot always does normal shot damage, no matter what. I cannot prove it and it was over 10 Years ago but I am pretty sure that this was always possible in 1.65 times. Same for the hunter pet. The insta pet did not destealth you when it would damage an enemy, That was introduced with the buffed pets that had increasesd runspeed, styles and procs. I made a bug report and they closed it without a comment.

Khogor wrote:
Sun 5 May 2019 10:41 AM
Get a Hit by an Asassin ..... Deff gone...off gone....Hits Gone 4xx Tp......

Try to lang Slam .......miss 4 Times.....land Slam ........Asassin evades ! Critshot.......

An then get killed by every damn noob Asassin....

Crit Styles: PA Cannot be blocked ,cannot be evaded, cannot be missed
Archery: Critshot randomly unstealthes you, can be blocked, can be evaded, BT catches it, nearsight turns you into a scuffed assassin, can be interrupted by reactive procs.

Whenever in DAoCs timeline was it possible to evade while being stunned or trigger reactive procs on 2000 range??
Top that with 250 vs 125 stealth detection range for no rational reason. I dont see the logic behind it. Whenever an Assassin and an Archer run into each other stealthed this is a huge advantage for Assassins. The silly stealth detection system we have on phoenix allows assassins to force those situations and make it near impossible for the already weaker archer to avoid such situation or turn around in time to avoid PA. 50% of the time I dont even see them before I eat the PA. The other times I have like 1ms time to reacht before PA hits.
Mon 6 May 2019 4:20 PM by Druth
Really seems like archers are in a bad spot, not the worst, but still bad.

Would be nice to see them given anti-assassin abilities so they at the very least are not fodder.
Mon 6 May 2019 6:04 PM by Horus
If that 20% melee resist goes in that will effectively kill bow ranged dmg and vicariously the archer class..

Unless you accept a redefinition of the class as merely a watered down assassin option with no perf, worse styles, worse evade, no venoms.

and IP instead of vanish.
Mon 6 May 2019 6:18 PM by Cadebrennus
stinsfire wrote:
Mon 6 May 2019 3:29 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Fri 3 May 2019 10:41 PM
People are still trying to play archer on this server? I quit weeks ago. Came to play archer. Leveled hunter, templated hunter, played hunter in OF for about 6 weeks. Made posts hoping for help for hunters. Total silence from devs regarding Hunter.

quit playing this server. Keep checking in to see of hunter has been fixed.

Maybe next time. I haven't given up hope

I have lost any faith or trust in the devs. They seem to have no clear "vision" of what they want achieve and I don't see any priorities or a plan they follow. They started buffing certain classes who were underperforming like thane, friar and even added custom spells in earthwiz line and then let the other underpowered char rot away in a corner. They have responded to archer threads 3 months ago, said they will do something, stopped posting in archer threads, don't react to any new archery threads and ignore you when you directly ask them about archers: It is almost as if they have an agenda pushed upon them to not adress anything archer related.

Hunter is in such a shitty state.. I just hit level 50 on my hunter today and I don't even feel like playing or temping him knowing how weak he will be.

Plus they stealthnerfed longshot without mentioning it in any patchnotes. You used to be able to combine critshot + longshot for self bt penetrating critshot every 5 minutes. They changed it that longshot always does normal shot damage, no matter what. I cannot prove it and it was over 10 Years ago but I am pretty sure that this was always possible in 1.65 times. Same for the hunter pet. The insta pet did not destealth you when it would damage an enemy, That was introduced with the buffed pets that had increasesd runspeed, styles and procs. I made a bug report and they closed it without a comment.

Khogor wrote:
Sun 5 May 2019 10:41 AM
Get a Hit by an Asassin ..... Deff gone...off gone....Hits Gone 4xx Tp......

Try to lang Slam .......miss 4 Times.....land Slam ........Asassin evades ! Critshot.......

An then get killed by every damn noob Asassin....

Crit Styles: PA Cannot be blocked ,cannot be evaded, cannot be missed
Archery: Critshot randomly unstealthes you, can be blocked, can be evaded, BT catches it, nearsight turns you into a scuffed assassin, can be interrupted by reactive procs.

Whenever in DAoCs timeline was it possible to evade while being stunned or trigger reactive procs on 2000 range??
Top that with 250 vs 125 stealth detection range for no rational reason. I dont see the logic behind it. Whenever an Assassin and an Archer run into each other stealthed this is a huge advantage for Assassins. The silly stealth detection system we have on phoenix allows assassins to force those situations and make it near impossible for the already weaker archer to avoid such situation or turn around in time to avoid PA. 50% of the time I dont even see them before I eat the PA. The other times I have like 1ms time to reacht before PA hits.

100% this. It's just nice to have someone else say it for a change. Every time I say something like this the haters start with the tinfoil hat talk.
Mon 6 May 2019 7:45 PM by mhenfhis
maybe a mix of the old system and the new one , with point black shots ( with the buffs associated with ) , root shot etc.. but dunno if it is possible or not.
Mon 6 May 2019 11:26 PM by AngelRose
I think it is time to call it, boys.

Dev's do not want archers in this shard. Archer's are dead. They might as well take them out of the game.

Just wish they had been more honest about it from the beginning. I wouldn't have wasted my time.
Tue 7 May 2019 12:44 AM by dbeattie71
AngelRose wrote:
Mon 6 May 2019 11:26 PM
I think it is time to call it, boys.

Dev's do not want archers in this shard. Archer's are dead. They might as well take them out of the game.

Just wish they had been more honest about it from the beginning. I wouldn't have wasted my time.

Don’t take my Ranger, still super fun to play.
Tue 7 May 2019 3:49 AM by cere2
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 12:44 AM
AngelRose wrote:
Mon 6 May 2019 11:26 PM
I think it is time to call it, boys.

Dev's do not want archers in this shard. Archer's are dead. They might as well take them out of the game.

Just wish they had been more honest about it from the beginning. I wouldn't have wasted my time.

Don’t take my Ranger, still super fun to play.

9 kill last week with your Ranger. Must not be that fun....
Tue 7 May 2019 4:52 AM by dbeattie71
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 3:49 AM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 12:44 AM
AngelRose wrote:
Mon 6 May 2019 11:26 PM
I think it is time to call it, boys.

Dev's do not want archers in this shard. Archer's are dead. They might as well take them out of the game.

Just wish they had been more honest about it from the beginning. I wouldn't have wasted my time.

Don’t take my Ranger, still super fun to play.

9 kill last week with your Ranger. Must not be that fun....

9? It says 67 kills. I've been playing my chanter but yeah, I'm not one of the mopey dopey cry b/c my bow down't work. My ranger is a monster. Funny how many Shar Rangers I see now lol.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:47 PM by cere2
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 4:52 AM
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 3:49 AM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 12:44 AM
Don’t take my Ranger, still super fun to play.

9 kill last week with your Ranger. Must not be that fun....

9? It says 67 kills. I've been playing my chanter but yeah, I'm not one of the mopey dopey cry b/c my bow down't work. My ranger is a monster. Funny how many Shar Rangers I see now lol.

So in other words you went with a melee spec Shar ranger. Probably have 12 bow. I mean if it's so easy and your ranger is "a beast" post up some vids. I want to see these epic skills. Or, are you saying that with purge and IP and the 2 instant heals up you can beat down an assassin?
Show me how good you are after that. Some of us are not interested in being a "beast" once every 15 mins.
Your saying I am a mopey dopey cry b/c bow don't work?
Obviously you haven't been reading anything on these boards about archers. And never played one in the last 10 years on live.
We weren't so dependent on IP to save our ass every battle.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:01 PM by Horus
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 4:52 AM
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 3:49 AM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 12:44 AM
Don’t take my Ranger, still super fun to play.

9 kill last week with your Ranger. Must not be that fun....

9? It says 67 kills. I've been playing my chanter but yeah, I'm not one of the mopey dopey cry b/c my bow down't work. My ranger is a monster. Funny how many Shar Rangers I see now lol.

How well do you do against Infilts? I can see things going well against SBs as they are vulnerable to slash dmg...and it seems armor vs dmg type is a bigger factor here than anything spec related other than style effects.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM by dbeattie71
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 1:47 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 4:52 AM
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 3:49 AM
9 kill last week with your Ranger. Must not be that fun....

9? It says 67 kills. I've been playing my chanter but yeah, I'm not one of the mopey dopey cry b/c my bow down't work. My ranger is a monster. Funny how many Shar Rangers I see now lol.

So in other words you went with a melee spec Shar ranger. Probably have 12 bow. I mean if it's so easy and your ranger is "a beast" post up some vids. I want to see these epic skills. Or, are you saying that with purge and IP and the 2 instant heals up you can beat down an assassin?
Show me how good you are after that. Some of us are not interested in being a "beast" once every 15 mins.
Your saying I am a mopey dopey cry b/c bow don't work?
Obviously you haven't been reading anything on these boards about archers. And never played one in the last 10 years on live.
We weren't so dependent on IP to save our ass every battle.

I do have videos but haven't put them up yet, having said that, I don't care if people think I'm good or not. And I never wait for timers, I always go back out.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:23 PM by cere2
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 1:47 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 4:52 AM
9? It says 67 kills. I've been playing my chanter but yeah, I'm not one of the mopey dopey cry b/c my bow down't work. My ranger is a monster. Funny how many Shar Rangers I see now lol.

So in other words you went with a melee spec Shar ranger. Probably have 12 bow. I mean if it's so easy and your ranger is "a beast" post up some vids. I want to see these epic skills. Or, are you saying that with purge and IP and the 2 instant heals up you can beat down an assassin?
Show me how good you are after that. Some of us are not interested in being a "beast" once every 15 mins.
Your saying I am a mopey dopey cry b/c bow don't work?
Obviously you haven't been reading anything on these boards about archers. And never played one in the last 10 years on live.
We weren't so dependent on IP to save our ass every battle.

I do have videos but haven't put them up yet, having said that, I don't care if people think I'm good or not. And I never wait for timers, I always go back out.

I don't care if your good or not either. But just coming onto a discussion and saying everything is fine because 1 spec with 1 class can kill assassin's just bothers me.
I agree with melee ranger being able to kill some assassin's. I have one and had way more success than with my luri spec bow.
But does that make everything ok?
New buffs will help ranger/hunter, but what about scout? I think scout just took a bit of a hit again. Melee rangers just got even better.
This is about archers not just rangers, so when I make suggestions it's trying to keep all the archer classes in mind.
I played ranger/scout/hunter for 12 years on Live, I'm no pro either.
But until the stealth detection is fixed, melee rangers will still be the only ones really able to solo consistently vs assassin's.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:24 PM by dbeattie71
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 2:23 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 1:47 PM
So in other words you went with a melee spec Shar ranger. Probably have 12 bow. I mean if it's so easy and your ranger is "a beast" post up some vids. I want to see these epic skills. Or, are you saying that with purge and IP and the 2 instant heals up you can beat down an assassin?
Show me how good you are after that. Some of us are not interested in being a "beast" once every 15 mins.
Your saying I am a mopey dopey cry b/c bow don't work?
Obviously you haven't been reading anything on these boards about archers. And never played one in the last 10 years on live.
We weren't so dependent on IP to save our ass every battle.

I do have videos but haven't put them up yet, having said that, I don't care if people think I'm good or not. And I never wait for timers, I always go back out.

I don't care if your good or not either. But just coming onto a discussion and saying everything is fine because 1 spec with 1 class can kill assassin's just bothers me.
I agree with melee ranger being able to kill some assassin's. I have one and had way more success than with my luri spec bow.
But does that make everything ok?
New buffs will help ranger/hunter, but what about scout? I think scout just took a bit of a hit again. Melee rangers just got even better.
This is about archers not just rangers, so when I make suggestions it's trying to keep all the archer classes in mind.
I played ranger/scout/hunter for 12 years on Live, I'm no pro either.
But until the stealth detection is fixed, melee rangers will still be the only ones really able to solo consistently vs assassin's.

I didn't say everything is fine, I said my Ranger is still fun. In fact in other thread, I said that if the strongest spec for a Ranger is 13 bow, there's probably an issue.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:28 PM by cere2
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 2:24 PM
cere2 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 2:23 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM
I do have videos but haven't put them up yet, having said that, I don't care if people think I'm good or not. And I never wait for timers, I always go back out.

I don't care if your good or not either. But just coming onto a discussion and saying everything is fine because 1 spec with 1 class can kill assassin's just bothers me.
I agree with melee ranger being able to kill some assassin's. I have one and had way more success than with my luri spec bow.
But does that make everything ok?
New buffs will help ranger/hunter, but what about scout? I think scout just took a bit of a hit again. Melee rangers just got even better.
This is about archers not just rangers, so when I make suggestions it's trying to keep all the archer classes in mind.
I played ranger/scout/hunter for 12 years on Live, I'm no pro either.
But until the stealth detection is fixed, melee rangers will still be the only ones really able to solo consistently vs assassin's.

I didn't say everything is fine, I said my Ranger is still fun. In fact in other thread, I said that if the strongest spec for a Ranger is 13 bow, there's probably an issue.

Then I withdraw my assumption and say "good on ya then"
Tue 7 May 2019 3:59 PM by qq6
By the time they give anything meaningful to rangers/hunters/scouts, the server is going to slow down even more. Compared to what it was a month/2 ago eu-morning/daytime it might aswell be dead, i still log on every now and then to make a run or two, and the action has slowed down considerably.
Tue 7 May 2019 5:21 PM by cere2
qq6 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 3:59 PM
By the time they give anything meaningful to rangers/hunters/scouts, the server is going to slow down even more. Compared to what it was a month/2 ago eu-morning/daytime it might aswell be dead, i still log on every now and then to make a run or two, and the action has slowed down considerably.



I think some of us still have hope.
I know pop will never stay at what it was 2 months ago, but I have 2 hopes
I hope archers get something here soon, and they decide to go NF.
Or, if they do nothing here and it becomes stale, I hope Live goes F2P and draws back the population it had a couple years ago.
Tue 7 May 2019 7:56 PM by mhenfhis
qq6 wrote:
Tue 7 May 2019 3:59 PM
By the time they give anything meaningful to rangers/hunters/scouts, the server is going to slow down even more. Compared to what it was a month/2 ago eu-morning/daytime it might aswell be dead, i still log on every now and then to make a run or two, and the action has slowed down considerably.

Well the lack of incentives to solo visible make action slower ,since seems the only viable option to solo is roll a stealher, since you dont have any kind of speed and OF layout isnt very helpfull...

i took a little break from scout cause, 1º the state of archers and scout in particular, since got bored camping mmg hills killing runners...
Fri 10 May 2019 4:16 PM by Tanakeo
how much did pathfinding buffs go up with the recent stat change?
Fri 10 May 2019 4:25 PM by qq6
are the buff changes live?

charge cloak went to 50 d/q ... yellow self buff d/q is 78 // still x1.25 delve value.
will log in the morning and play a bit, just to see the change. Before / after for me 42 pf // best buffs.


Fri 10 May 2019 4:47 PM by cere2
qq6 wrote:
Fri 10 May 2019 4:25 PM
are the buff changes live?

charge cloak went to 50 d/q ... yellow self buff d/q is 78 // still x1.25 delve value.
will log in the morning and play a bit, just to see the change. Before / after for me 42 pf // best buffs.




So I am a bit confused here, why is dex less with purp d/q buff and more with yellow d/q buff?
Nevermind, first is old buff charges stats?
New pic is with 42 PF?
Fri 10 May 2019 5:28 PM by qq6
sorry a bit confusing, before pic is 42pf + 75 d/q s/c charges /// after is just pf + combined
overall its just a gimp to dmg, now every1 will be with +af charge, so even more -dmg for for all archers, as before some ppl didnt bother to buff it.
Fri 10 May 2019 5:45 PM by lurker
qq6 wrote:
Fri 10 May 2019 4:25 PM


King Tard Muff 😂
Fri 10 May 2019 6:58 PM by Lillebror
That was a lot of hitpoints
Fri 10 May 2019 7:29 PM by mhenfhis
qq6 wrote:
Fri 10 May 2019 4:25 PM
are the buff changes live?

charge cloak went to 50 d/q ... yellow self buff d/q is 78 // still x1.25 delve value.
will log in the morning and play a bit, just to see the change. Before / after for me 42 pf // best buffs.




not bad, rangers and hunters are lucky, got a little boost with the new changes... us poors scouts are doomed
Sat 11 May 2019 6:32 AM by Cadebrennus
qq6 wrote:
Fri 10 May 2019 4:25 PM
are the buff changes live?

charge cloak went to 50 d/q ... yellow self buff d/q is 78 // still x1.25 delve value.
will log in the morning and play a bit, just to see the change. Before / after for me 42 pf // best buffs.




Slight boost to bow (yet a nerf to damage with AF buff for everyone on 100%), and a big nerf to melee. That strength score took a huge hit.
Sat 11 May 2019 6:45 AM by mhenfhis
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 6:32 AM
qq6 wrote:
Fri 10 May 2019 4:25 PM
are the buff changes live?

charge cloak went to 50 d/q ... yellow self buff d/q is 78 // still x1.25 delve value.
will log in the morning and play a bit, just to see the change. Before / after for me 42 pf // best buffs.




Slight boost to bow (yet a nerf to damage with AF buff for everyone on 100%), and a big nerf to melee. That strength score took a huge hit.

you call always run pierce hehe, the good point for rangers is that they are not loosing that 25 quick with high PF.
Sat 11 May 2019 11:34 AM by Cadebrennus
mhenfhis wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 6:45 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 6:32 AM
qq6 wrote:
Fri 10 May 2019 4:25 PM
are the buff changes live?

charge cloak went to 50 d/q ... yellow self buff d/q is 78 // still x1.25 delve value.
will log in the morning and play a bit, just to see the change. Before / after for me 42 pf // best buffs.




Slight boost to bow (yet a nerf to damage with AF buff for everyone on 100%), and a big nerf to melee. That strength score took a huge hit.

you call always run pierce hehe, the good point for rangers is that they are not loosing that 25 quick with high PF.

Pierce on Hib sucks just as bad as Thrust does on Alb style-wise. Blades is far better for a Hib stealther, especially considering the anytime 2part ASR chain.
Sat 11 May 2019 12:25 PM by Tillbeast
Am I missing something here with regards scouts complaining. For a hunter or ranger to get full benefit of these new changes they have to spec really high into either PF or BC. A rough guess would be either spec 40+ in pf or bc or don't bother speccing at all in those lines. This means they have to ignore other spec lines, lower archery, lower cd, lower melee skills etc. Admittedly a melee focused hunter/ranger who ignores bow line is obviously better off than a melee focused scout but not by a huge amount. A scout who has access to combi potions is basically being given free spec points to spend into an additional line. A hunter or ranger does not get any advantage of using a combi potion over a scout using a combi potion unless they spec high into either bc or pf. Surely this is to the scouts advantage. They have to sacrifice nothing to get access to pretty goods buffs and have there class advantages at full power like slam, better dps and ranged bows etc. Whereas a hunter or ranger to get better buffs than a scout has to spec high in pf or bc and therefore the extra dps they get from high pf and bc is countered by the loss of dps from lower archery and melee lines.

I guess I am missing something but I don't know what. Unless you go full melee as a hunter or ranger the scout looks the better bow or hybrid option of the 3.
Sat 11 May 2019 1:15 PM by qq6
Scouts are very strong now. If i had to choose an archer, i'd roll a scout now. Messing with buffs is always going to be a tough one towards some classes, i very much doubt any kind of balance will be reached here in the long run, and these drastic changes only make it worse for those that sank the time in.

Scout > hunter > ranger from my duels so far.
Sat 11 May 2019 1:42 PM by Bumbles
qq6 wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 1:15 PM
Scouts are very strong now. If i had to choose an archer, i'd roll a scout now. Messing with buffs is always going to be a tough one towards some classes, i very much doubt any kind of balance will be reached here in the long run, and these drastic changes only make it worse for those that sank the time in.

Scout > hunter > ranger from my duels so far.

Hahaha ha. Come to Alb, roll a Scout. Then let’s have that conversation again. As Phixion said if purge is up any Scout is dead 99% of the time. Scouts have always been seen as free RPs for any stealther. I love when Hunters/Rangers try to make them out to be amazing....you find me a NS/SB who fears a Scout and we can have a conversation.
Sat 11 May 2019 2:00 PM by qq6
I pld very little after the patch, and that comparison above was my experience vs other archers in melee. I'd very much like to try a scout here, but i just dont have the time to get him to a playable lvl (lvl 50 + rr5+). If you have an account that has a scout, maybe we can swap for a bit, i dont mind (pretty sure its not against the rules)
Sat 11 May 2019 5:39 PM by mhenfhis
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 11:34 AM
mhenfhis wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 6:45 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 6:32 AM
Slight boost to bow (yet a nerf to damage with AF buff for everyone on 100%), and a big nerf to melee. That strength score took a huge hit.

you call always run pierce hehe, the good point for rangers is that they are not loosing that 25 quick with high PF.

Pierce on Hib sucks just as bad as Thrust does on Alb style-wise. Blades is far better for a Hib stealther, especially considering the anytime 2part ASR chain.

well on alb slash you dont have asr , is only on thrust as side chain. Althought slash have a nice anytimer ^^.

I tried slash with my scout i didnt like much , the dmg was similar to thrust, the side snare was nice but didnt work well always. Maybe being an inconnu doest help
Sat 11 May 2019 5:56 PM by mhenfhis
Tillbeast wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 12:25 PM
Am I missing something here with regards scouts complaining. For a hunter or ranger to get full benefit of these new changes they have to spec really high into either PF or BC. A rough guess would be either spec 40+ in pf or bc or don't bother speccing at all in those lines. This means they have to ignore other spec lines, lower archery, lower cd, lower melee skills etc. Admittedly a melee focused hunter/ranger who ignores bow line is obviously better off than a melee focused scout but not by a huge amount. A scout who has access to combi potions is basically being given free spec points to spend into an additional line. A hunter or ranger does not get any advantage of using a combi potion over a scout using a combi potion unless they spec high into either bc or pf. Surely this is to the scouts advantage. They have to sacrifice nothing to get access to pretty goods buffs and have there class advantages at full power like slam, better dps and ranged bows etc. Whereas a hunter or ranger to get better buffs than a scout has to spec high in pf or bc and therefore the extra dps they get from high pf and bc is countered by the loss of dps from lower archery and melee lines.

I guess I am missing something but I don't know what. Unless you go full melee as a hunter or ranger the scout looks the better bow or hybrid option of the 3.

i didnt get this.

as rr5, on scout you will go:

35 bow/st
42 shield.
42 weapon.

As a rr5 hunter:

35bow/st
42 bc just missing the last d/q
41 weapon

And ranger
35 bow/st
39 blades
40 pf
18 cd.


As scout btw you will have to spent some points on mob to block something , atm i run mob5 and my block vs ns/sbs is around 32%. A hunter/ranger can spent that points in mastery of arcane , dunno if that boost a bit buffs?.
Sat 11 May 2019 7:18 PM by qq6
The "balance" between all archer classes was to be simple, scouts get shield / hunters get a pet + a buff / rangers get dw+pf.
With the introduction of pett nerfs across the board + combined forces, the "balance" has shifted.
As it stands now:
scouts shield + free buffs
hunters d/q buff + pet buff (have to spend points in bc)
rangers d/q buff, rest of the buffs the same (have to spend points in pf)

All of this adds to the imbalance (buff changes / combined pots from the start), instead of balancing the 3 classes closer together, on paper, you can see who comes out on top.
Sat 11 May 2019 10:15 PM by Tillbeast
Bumbles wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 1:42 PM
qq6 wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 1:15 PM
Scouts are very strong now. If i had to choose an archer, i'd roll a scout now. Messing with buffs is always going to be a tough one towards some classes, i very much doubt any kind of balance will be reached here in the long run, and these drastic changes only make it worse for those that sank the time in.

Scout > hunter > ranger from my duels so far.

Hahaha ha. Come to Alb, roll a Scout. Then let’s have that conversation again. As Phixion said if purge is up any Scout is dead 99% of the time. Scouts have always been seen as free RPs for any stealther. I love when Hunters/Rangers try to make them out to be amazing....you find me a NS/SB who fears a Scout and we can have a conversation.

A scout will lose to a ns or sb most of the times much like a hunter will lose to a ns and an inf and a ranger loses to a sb or an inf. Archers generally lose to assassins unless they spec purely for melee and then they have a chance. I agree a scout is prob weakest archer to go melee but the point I was trying to make a hybrid scout or pure sniper scout is better off than either a none pure melee hunter or a ranger as they get a lot more benefit from the stat potions whilst keeping all their class advantages. For a hunter/ranger to get same benefit and keep to keep their class advantage of better spec self buffs they have to take points away from bow/melee and put into bc or pf. A scout currently makes the best sniper and hybrid archer available, yes still loses to sbs and ns if purge not up whereas the hunter/ranger to make most from these buff changes spec for melee where they have improved since before patch.

Do I think scouts are in a strong place? Not really but no archer is with all the custom rules and changes. From a hunters perspective it has absolutely useless abilities with a slow pet that's only use if you pop it when already in melee and even then they miss a lot more than hit. Scouts abilities may not impressive but shield is very revelant. Question for scouts....do most scouts use the cookie spec of 50 bow 42sh 35st rest melee or do they stop at 35bow like a lot of hunters and rangers do due to how ineffective speccing over 35 is for bow. If they spec 35 bow does the extra weaponskill you get from speccing in melee help with the shield landing a slam or is that calculated just from shield spec?
Tue 14 May 2019 4:11 PM by ibuprofen
I say give archers a 3-4 sec stun(or 10 sec 30% snare) at 50 bow with 5 min CD. Will give em a chance to kill anything visible non det and ungrouped. Leave everything else.
SB Inf and NS is and should be a thread to archers.
Problem for archers is permaspint. you only have between 1500 and full range (depending on where you stand) to kill. within 1500 most have some spell to interrupt.
My ranger pre RR5 was add only. Solo Skalds friars and visible mins are no go. Any caster with a pet is a no go and casters with NS. Shield tanks are no go (which is as it should be imo). not much left to kill solo. So you are left with adding fights.
Dont get me wrong. I love adding fights and piss ppl off. But i would not need to if i had a chance to kill anything running solo.

Btw look at the herald and compare rps on the solo classes. Archers not exactly in the top tier.
Tue 14 May 2019 5:16 PM by Numatic
Tillbeast wrote:
Sat 11 May 2019 10:15 PM
Question for scouts....do most scouts use the cookie spec of 50 bow 42sh 35st rest melee or do they stop at 35bow like a lot of hunters and rangers do due to how ineffective speccing over 35 is for bow. If they spec 35 bow does the extra weaponskill you get from speccing in melee help with the shield landing a slam or is that calculated just from shield spec?

Mine is 37 st, 37 bow, 42sh, 38 thrust. That's so I can get my comp spec since hes new and RR3. I will likely wait till rr6 to respec by dropping everything to 35 except shield and bumping up thrust.

From what I have gathered by speaking to other scouts is that above comp bow spec is useless. So most just maintain comp spec.
Tue 14 May 2019 5:20 PM by chois
mine is 50 slash / 42 shield / 27 bow /31 stealth, melee is not too bad with good tools
Tue 14 May 2019 6:19 PM by t4coops
get fe9 and step through the door waving the bow bow, them flopsyscrubs will be screaming please don't shoot me no more !
Tue 14 May 2019 6:47 PM by Kappu
If an NS is losing fights to an SB they might want to go respec Blades and laugh at every SB they come across......
Tue 14 May 2019 6:55 PM by Kappu
Rangers took the least hit to their class with the changes and get a ton of value in the PF line with the changes.....

Scouts got the worst of the changes.....

Hunters well they get two buffs and a pet (which has a buff that isn't insta cast which should be changed). The buff may or may not even be worth specing in the BC line for.....

The other issue is that they devalued DW/Multiple attacker benefits when it came to penetrating defenses by reducing the actual percentage that it would reduce those defenses by. I'm still having a blast on the server even with these minor and yes they are minor changes to which people just need to adapt and overcome.

Yep, you might not get the RA spec you had, but that is part of the game boys.
Wed 15 May 2019 5:37 AM by Khogor
I still think think a smal buff to Bow dam ore better scaling with more specc points is the way to go. You Play an archer not an asassin which can also do dam at range. The dam itself with the speccline ist almost the same as an infi using thrust styles . My problem still is in points of getting back to range when once forced into melee. Most fights are against asassins dou to desease no chance of kiting and then slowly towards death ore Add.
Wed 15 May 2019 9:37 PM by Emeryc
I actually agree that a Desperate Bowman-like ability, without a damage component, would go a long way to helping archers out. Put it at 45 or 50 bow spec... a 3 or 4 second, non purgeable stun that takes the archer out of combat, etc.
Wed 15 May 2019 10:49 PM by Belkiolle
waffel wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:31 PM
Also, any buffs to Beastcraft/PF need to come with something for Scouts. I'm not sure what or how, but right now I feel scouts have the least amount of toys and are extremely pigeonholed in their spec options. Having never played one, looking at the char plan for 30 seconds is depressing. Let me guess: 35 stealth, 35 bow, 42 shield, rest in Thrust or Blades? Yikes.

Pretty much. It's the only class in game I can think of that you look at the character planner and there isn't any playing with it at all to think about alternate specs.
Wed 15 May 2019 11:17 PM by Bumbles
I've been playing a Solo Scout as a last ditch effort to try and have fun here and it can be enjoyable at times. But for the most part you are just stealther food. The Snare poison defeats any chance to kiting a sin, the DoTs on most SB/NS will kill you. Everyone has purge 5 it seems. Ever if people are dumb and blow purge on numb you can't do enough damage while they are in stun to kill them AND you can't get far enough away to even get off 3 shots. Rough life indeed. Even casters are rough, no idea why arrows don't penetrate bubbles here like on Live. Weird! I do like the new 24 hour played rule for new 50's. It's allowed me to try every conceivable spec I can think of and mess around which I love to do with weird specs.
Wed 15 May 2019 11:24 PM by Leandrys
Bumbles wrote:
Wed 15 May 2019 11:17 PM
I've been playing a Solo Scout as a last ditch effort to try and have fun here and it can be enjoyable at times. But for the most part you are just stealther food. The Snare poison defeats any chance to kiting a sin, the DoTs on most SB/NS will kill you. Everyone has purge 5 it seems. Ever if people are dumb and blow purge on numb you can't do enough damage while they are in stun to kill them AND you can't get far enough away to even get off 3 shots. Rough life indeed. Even casters are rough, no idea why arrows don't penetrate bubbles here like on Live. Weird! I do like the new 24 hour played rule for new 50's. It's allowed me to try every conceivable spec I can think of and mess around which I love to do with weird specs.

I'm not kidding, i totally forgot there was scouts in game, didn't see any for days and days of RvR right now.

A few hunters, yes, can't remember at all when did i see a scout for the last time.
Thu 16 May 2019 2:20 AM by Bumbles
Leandrys wrote:
Wed 15 May 2019 11:24 PM
Bumbles wrote:
Wed 15 May 2019 11:17 PM
I've been playing a Solo Scout as a last ditch effort to try and have fun here and it can be enjoyable at times. But for the most part you are just stealther food. The Snare poison defeats any chance to kiting a sin, the DoTs on most SB/NS will kill you. Everyone has purge 5 it seems. Ever if people are dumb and blow purge on numb you can't do enough damage while they are in stun to kill them AND you can't get far enough away to even get off 3 shots. Rough life indeed. Even casters are rough, no idea why arrows don't penetrate bubbles here like on Live. Weird! I do like the new 24 hour played rule for new 50's. It's allowed me to try every conceivable spec I can think of and mess around which I love to do with weird specs.

I'm not kidding, i totally forgot there was scouts in game, didn't see any for days and days of RvR right now.

A few hunters, yes, can't remember at all when did i see a scout for the last time.

To be fair you usually never see the Scout, you just see the Minny and Inf pop on you while the Scout is off behind a tree. They hide or they die.
Fri 17 May 2019 5:25 AM by Khogor
IS it correct that you cant critshot If the target is in melee ?
Fri 17 May 2019 7:54 AM by mhenfhis
Khogor wrote:
Fri 17 May 2019 5:25 AM
IS it correct that you cant critshot If the target is in melee ?

yep, just if they are not in melee or stunned/mezzed
Fri 17 May 2019 10:09 AM by Khogor
Mh okay seems balanced 😂 ....i mean who doesnt like Instant death by 3+ pa from an asassin/ sb zerg you dont see and which does more dam than youre critshot anyway.
Fri 17 May 2019 10:56 AM by chois
Lost of spec d/q it s just impossible for a scout to play like a bowman sniper, dunno why it s the only bowman to loose in the changements. Oh yes its right, i forget, we are killing machine in melee....
Fri 17 May 2019 11:01 AM by Sepplord
archer+assasin > 2assassins imo

and in that department the scout is quite strong because of guard and their higher durability

not saying that archers are completely fine, i agree that high bowspeed is lacking for example, just a small bite of food for thought
Sat 18 May 2019 8:22 AM by mhenfhis
Belkiolle wrote:
Wed 15 May 2019 10:49 PM
waffel wrote:
Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:31 PM
Also, any buffs to Beastcraft/PF need to come with something for Scouts. I'm not sure what or how, but right now I feel scouts have the least amount of toys and are extremely pigeonholed in their spec options. Having never played one, looking at the char plan for 30 seconds is depressing. Let me guess: 35 stealth, 35 bow, 42 shield, rest in Thrust or Blades? Yikes.

Pretty much. It's the only class in game I can think of that you look at the character planner and there isn't any playing with it at all to think about alternate specs.

yeah you want 42 for slam, then 35+ gives nothing and 39+ weapon also nothing, cause the dmg gain/ws is not worth anyway, you wont able to outmelee a melee ranger or hunter and dont talk about ns/sb haha.
Sat 18 May 2019 11:12 AM by Zaidon
Why are hunters the only ones without access to a 5.5 speed bow? Seem very unfair...
Sat 18 May 2019 11:23 AM by Cadebrennus
Zaidon wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:12 AM
Why are hunters the only ones without access to a 5.5 speed bow? Seem very unfair...

Perhaps because on live they were given access to the slowest bows (along with a Cujo dog) and then absolutely dominated live.
Sat 18 May 2019 11:54 AM by Zaidon
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:23 AM
Zaidon wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:12 AM
Why are hunters the only ones without access to a 5.5 speed bow? Seem very unfair...

Perhaps because on live they were given access to the slowest bows (along with a Cujo dog) and then absolutely dominated live.

Yes but this is not live where you are full buffed by buffbot and the pet could be also buffed.
The hunter's pet here is the most weak pet in the game, has not even instant buff and definitely does not compensate for the use of shield or dual wield compare with scout and rangers. So same bow speed is needed for balance.
Sat 18 May 2019 3:40 PM by Cadebrennus
Zaidon wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:54 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:23 AM
Zaidon wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:12 AM
Why are hunters the only ones without access to a 5.5 speed bow? Seem very unfair...

Perhaps because on live they were given access to the slowest bows (along with a Cujo dog) and then absolutely dominated live.

Yes but this is not live where you are full buffed by buffbot and the pet could be also buffed.
The hunter's pet here is the most weak pet in the game, has not even instant buff and definitely does not compensate for the use of shield or dual wield compare with scout and rangers. So same bow speed is needed for balance.

I don't disagree with the bow speed here if the dog is left untouched.

Also I already said the dog isn't the same as on live (aka the Cujo dog comment.)

However 2h already = CD/DW damage. During the PvP event I had a melee Hunter with 2h sword and would pop the dog right before closing in for melee. 2h = CD/DW, so the dog acted like another offhand swing.

My recommendation would be to give equal speed bows or increase the dog's run speed, but not both.
Sat 18 May 2019 4:19 PM by gotwqqd
Zaidon wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:12 AM
Why are hunters the only ones without access to a 5.5 speed bow? Seem very unfair...

Maybe the buffs and pets?
Sat 18 May 2019 4:53 PM by AngelRose
The pet is basically useless. At best, it is a minor damage add that does not compare to dw...at all.
Sat 18 May 2019 7:31 PM by stinsfire
gotwqqd wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 4:19 PM
Zaidon wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:12 AM
Why are hunters the only ones without access to a 5.5 speed bow? Seem very unfair...

Maybe the buffs and pets?

Rangers get AF, D/Q, Str and dam add.
Hunters get get AF and D/Q and a completely useless pet that only helps the enemy by triggering heal procs.


Seriousy devs... you fucked archers so hard with the custom changes (RAs), incorrect implementations(hunter pet destealhing hunter when fighting, longshot) and then you make custom changes that benefit the best archer most (hey at least one archer isnt complete ass). Me and many people I have spoken to ingame start to believe the dev team has PTSD from days where archers, especially hunters, were dominating assassins.. otherwise I cannot understand the lack of action in terms of archers.
Sat 18 May 2019 7:40 PM by Cadebrennus
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 4:53 PM
The pet is basically useless. At best, it is a minor damage add that does not compare to dw...at all.

As much damage as an unstyled offhand swing, which is pretty significant. However I have not timed the frequency of attacks.
Sat 18 May 2019 7:48 PM by chois
well hunter and ranger have a boost in self buff atleast, when scout have nothing and loose a lot in the changement, ranger and hunter keep their high dex and quick for bow damage/speed and scout no, and don t talk about the stun... i m speaking for the bow
Sat 18 May 2019 8:42 PM by Zaidon
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:23 AM
My recommendation would be to give equal speed bows or increase the dog's run speed, but not both.

That's what I mean, if there is not plan for the poor dog and because scout and ranger have the same bow speed, so also hunter deserve it.

About the Scouts , they don't have a buff line but they can invest more points on skills line ( invest points on bow over 35 maybe is not worth it but this is another problem related all the archers) also the self buff need a investment of realm point to get Moa because the benefit you get from 40 pti on buff is like 13Dex without MoA, it's not a huge different compare to buffpot only ( i don't think people boost buff to 50 its costing to much and you need to sacrifice a lot). So with that's realm ability point Scouts can invest on defence or offense RA and get probably the same result.

Originally Scout always has the slowest bow follow by ranger and then hunter and I agree with that but here Scout and Ranger have 5.5 Hunter 5.0 and this, for me, not make any sense.
Sat 18 May 2019 8:54 PM by mhenfhis
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 7:40 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 4:53 PM
The pet is basically useless. At best, it is a minor damage add that does not compare to dw...at all.

As much damage as an unstyled offhand swing, which is pretty significant. However I have not timed the frequency of attacks.

but with offhand you can nice procs wheres a hunter pet no. Plus dont get the dual wield penetrating bonus. If not rly the same.
Sat 18 May 2019 8:54 PM by mhenfhis
Make haste affect bow speed draw times, and i'll be a bit happier
Sat 18 May 2019 11:05 PM by AngelRose
double post
Sat 18 May 2019 11:05 PM by AngelRose
mhenfhis wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 8:54 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 7:40 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 4:53 PM
The pet is basically useless. At best, it is a minor damage add that does not compare to dw...at all.

As much damage as an unstyled offhand swing, which is pretty significant. However I have not timed the frequency of attacks.

but with offhand you can nice procs wheres a hunter pet no. Plus dont get the dual wield penetrating bonus. If not rly the same.

He tested the damage against a training dummy...and has been telling everyone since that the hunter and ranger is equal.
Sun 19 May 2019 9:48 AM by stinsfire
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 11:05 PM
mhenfhis wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 8:54 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 7:40 PM
As much damage as an unstyled offhand swing, which is pretty significant. However I have not timed the frequency of attacks.

but with offhand you can nice procs wheres a hunter pet no. Plus dont get the dual wield penetrating bonus. If not rly the same.

He tested the damage against a training dummy...and has been telling everyone since that the hunter and ranger is equal.

Omg... he still doesn't understand that his tests vs dummies mean nothing after people have been telling him for weeks or even months?
Sun 19 May 2019 6:12 PM by Rookie
Tried my Ranger in 35-39 bg and can't kill anything. 27 +9 in bow using a 5.4 spd 99% qual and shoot casters for 100. Tried full path and melee spec and done even less dmg. Are the archers meant to be so gimped on bow and melee dmg? Guess Ranger is just an add on to any fight and leech rp's or grey gank in frontiers?
Sun 19 May 2019 7:06 PM by Khogor
Tryed in ad "Duell" against Infi , the base def ..gave him more and i mean far more evade than my 50+15 and moblock 7 made me block his attacks.

If you are not planing on just adding ore having a stealth grp ...dont go archer ..just dont...
Sun 19 May 2019 9:24 PM by stinsfire
Khogor wrote:
Sun 19 May 2019 7:06 PM
Tryed in ad "Duell" against Infi , the base def ..gave him more and i mean far more evade than my 50+15 and moblock 7 made me block his attacks.

If you are not planing on just adding ore having a stealth grp ...dont go archer ..just dont...

Yep.. Me and my guildmates.. sometimes when we are really frustrated about our hunters we make a team of 4+ hunters and just murder everything that can be killed by 5 hunters that we see. Everything.. XPers, greys, solo players leaving DL or SF just to vent our frustration. Funniest thing we came up with is charming pets and sending them into XP groups while staying stealthed. All these are kinda asshole moves since none of the fights are fair for our enemies, but we stopped feeling bad about it since 90% of 1on1 are not fair for a hunter due to the crappy implementation and terrible stealthgame on phoenix.

If the devs fuck our favorite class this hard, then proceed ignore at 100 pages of archer complaints and suggestions, then we don't give a fuck about fairplay or any code of honor anymore.
Sun 19 May 2019 10:33 PM by Cadebrennus
mhenfhis wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 8:54 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 7:40 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 4:53 PM
The pet is basically useless. At best, it is a minor damage add that does not compare to dw...at all.

As much damage as an unstyled offhand swing, which is pretty significant. However I have not timed the frequency of attacks.

but with offhand you can nice procs wheres a hunter pet no. Plus dont get the dual wield penetrating bonus. If not rly the same.

True you get more weapon procs, but you also get more armour procs. You've got to see both sides of the coin here. DW penetration was nerfed hard on this server.
Mon 20 May 2019 8:40 AM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sun 19 May 2019 10:33 PM
mhenfhis wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 8:54 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 7:40 PM
As much damage as an unstyled offhand swing, which is pretty significant. However I have not timed the frequency of attacks.

but with offhand you can nice procs wheres a hunter pet no. Plus dont get the dual wield penetrating bonus. If not rly the same.

True you get more weapon procs, but you also get more armour procs. You've got to see both sides of the coin here. DW penetration was nerfed hard on this server.

pet triggers armorprocs just as the offhand does, offhand proccs weaponproccs, pet doesn't
that was the argument being made by mhenfis
Mon 20 May 2019 9:27 AM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 20 May 2019 8:40 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sun 19 May 2019 10:33 PM
mhenfhis wrote:
Sat 18 May 2019 8:54 PM
but with offhand you can nice procs wheres a hunter pet no. Plus dont get the dual wield penetrating bonus. If not rly the same.

True you get more weapon procs, but you also get more armour procs. You've got to see both sides of the coin here. DW penetration was nerfed hard on this server.

pet triggers armorprocs just as the offhand does, offhand proccs weaponproccs, pet doesn't
that was the argument being made by mhenfis

also you have no chance to increase pets swing speed, so it is really obvious that rangers=!hunters
Mon 20 May 2019 10:18 AM by jelzinga_EU
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sun 19 May 2019 10:33 PM
True you get more weapon procs, but you also get more armour procs. You've got to see both sides of the coin here. DW penetration was nerfed hard on this server.

Both sides of the coin? Are you arguing that a slower attack-speed of the dog is better than a faster attack-speed (of an offhand) because the dog procs less armour-procs ?
Mon 20 May 2019 11:01 AM by Zaidon
Hunter on this server has nothing more or better compare to the other archers but he has 0.5 speed less on bow.
There is only 2 option, give them better pet or at least same bow speed.
Mon 20 May 2019 1:40 PM by Horus
Melee heavy hunter vs hybrid/bow spec ranger = Hunter victory
Bow heavy hunter vs melee spec ranger = Ranger victory
equal spec vs equal spec = can go either way. If ranger is pierce then probably the hunter. If ranger is blades then maybe favors the ranger.

That is about as balanced (at least between the 2) that you can get.
Mon 20 May 2019 6:53 PM by mhenfhis
yeah i meant that you can compare each other. If the dog was like it is on live with the self buff, speed, styles,proc and frenzy mode, yeah hunter is by far better. In the current state, CD /Path gives much more than BC/spear(sword).

The other day had a blockchance of 29% with mob5 and 42+15 shield on a melee ranger ( nesquiq or something like that , cant spell it right ) And vs Nightstalker and other hunters i have a 45%+ block chance to em and like 50 or so to the pet.. thts not equal .

If you talk of raw dps on a dummy yeah CD=hunter, since dummys doesnt have defenses.
Mon 20 May 2019 9:59 PM by t4coops
if someone has the advantage over you just keep moving, they cant shoot you if your running away, so you always get to turn and clip they ass first and keep moving again, and if anything long as u keep moving evnetualy they'll prob do something dumb or strange and get put away

lace them nike's up tight and float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, dance around the border like cassius clay , stay out of range till your rdy to strike
Wed 22 May 2019 8:32 PM by hellcon
Read the patch notes.

Archers have same stealth detection as assassins & hunter pets were buffed
Wed 22 May 2019 9:11 PM by Rookie
Nice change to stealth no more free PA for assassins now. My soon to be 50 ranger is happy
Wed 22 May 2019 9:29 PM by t4coops
jab em silly and dance all night, rumble young archers rumble !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBE_JSlma2U
Thu 23 May 2019 3:39 AM by qq6
trying to find the patch notes you guys are talking about (stealth), some1 got link to it, its not in the patch forum
Thu 23 May 2019 4:51 AM by Clockwork
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=40&p=66031#p66031
Thu 23 May 2019 4:58 AM by Isavyr
Clockwork wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 4:51 AM
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=40&p=66031#p66031

Tell Uthred that his patch note is May 22nd, not May 18th. He already did May 18th!
Thu 23 May 2019 5:39 AM by qq6
ahh now i see thx, gonna try it out in a bit, no idea why it took so long :X
Thu 23 May 2019 7:49 AM by Sepplord
i would have preferred just removing the detection bonus for assassins on archers...i fear that the stealthzergs will be even harder to avoid on both my SB and my hunter now

but overall very good change, archers needed something and hunterpets did too
surprising it happened suddenly out of the blue, but good that it did
Thu 23 May 2019 8:21 AM by keen
So now that hunters got buffed and rangers got buffed with better buffs, what about scout class?
And then I think we should buff assassin's again so they match those buffs and then we buff hunters again until the whole server is playing stealthers...
Don't know if anyone realised but the stealthers population is already at 20-25% in rvr.

This population increase its first because stealthers are already very powerful.

Second insta amnesia ruining visible rvr for non full groups.
So since staff has been working on the first one when do we see range limited to insta amnesia or remove of speed break so ppl who want to run less than fg don't need to join the stealth play?
Thu 23 May 2019 11:31 AM by Lev
keen wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 8:21 AM
So now that hunters got buffed and rangers got buffed with better buffs, what about scout class?
And then I think we should buff assassin's again so they match those buffs and then we buff hunters again until the whole server is playing stealthers...
Don't know if anyone realised but the stealthers population is already at 20-25% in rvr.
scouts got nothing and hopefully then won't get anything.
in contrary, i think, rangers should have 5.3 bows, hunters 5.0 and only scouts 5.5. so that scouts have longest range and highest critshots. that and the cc/defense from shield should be their point over the other archers. this will never happen, ranger will keep their 5.5 bows and thus stay at top (with quite some margin).
but: scouts have good synergy with mins and inf. albion just makes by far the best stealth groups and lots of people would be heavily annoyed if one of those 3 classes would be buffed even more. in a way those groups have just been buffed with the latest patch, as it's has been made easier to find other assassins for those groups.
Thu 23 May 2019 12:44 PM by Bumbles
Lev wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 11:31 AM
keen wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 8:21 AM
So now that hunters got buffed and rangers got buffed with better buffs, what about scout class?
And then I think we should buff assassin's again so they match those buffs and then we buff hunters again until the whole server is playing stealthers...
Don't know if anyone realised but the stealthers population is already at 20-25% in rvr.
scouts got nothing and hopefully then won't get anything.
in contrary, i think, rangers should have 5.3 bows, hunters 5.0 and only scouts 5.5. so that scouts have longest range and highest critshots. that and the cc/defense from shield should be their point over the other archers. this will never happen, ranger will keep their 5.5 bows and thus stay at top (with quite some margin).
but: scouts have good synergy with mins and inf. albion just makes by far the best stealth groups and lots of people would be heavily annoyed if one of those 3 classes would be buffed even more. in a way those groups have just been buffed with the latest patch, as it's has been made easier to find other assassins for those groups.

I love people like you who have obviously never played a Scout making comments on their shield and it’s defense capabilities. Ask any NS/SB/Ranger how that shield effects them when they rip a Scout apart in Melee. Oh and Stealth groups are for assholes with Leprosy.
Thu 23 May 2019 1:44 PM by Horus
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 12:44 PM
Lev wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 11:31 AM
keen wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 8:21 AM
So now that hunters got buffed and rangers got buffed with better buffs, what about scout class?
And then I think we should buff assassin's again so they match those buffs and then we buff hunters again until the whole server is playing stealthers...
Don't know if anyone realised but the stealthers population is already at 20-25% in rvr.
scouts got nothing and hopefully then won't get anything.
in contrary, i think, rangers should have 5.3 bows, hunters 5.0 and only scouts 5.5. so that scouts have longest range and highest critshots. that and the cc/defense from shield should be their point over the other archers. this will never happen, ranger will keep their 5.5 bows and thus stay at top (with quite some margin).
but: scouts have good synergy with mins and inf. albion just makes by far the best stealth groups and lots of people would be heavily annoyed if one of those 3 classes would be buffed even more. in a way those groups have just been buffed with the latest patch, as it's has been made easier to find other assassins for those groups.

I love people like you who have obviously never played a Scout making comments on their shield and it’s defense capabilities. Ask any NS/SB/Ranger how that shield effects them when they rip a Scout apart in Melee. Oh and Stealth groups are for assholes with Leprosy.

Well scouts do get more spec points.... And that gives you the ability to get to 52 composite in both thrust AND slash at RR5 if you so desire. And with dmg vs armor vulnerability the way it is here, that is huge.

If you sacrifice bow to 12 like melee rangers do you could spec..

37 Slash
38 Thrust
42 Shield
35 Stealth
12 bow

That is a pretty mighty and flexible melee build if you have knowledge of your targets and the ability fast weapon switch that exists on Phoenix. You could even sacrifice a little stealth the get another point or two...And don't under estimate shield. If you are clever you can get someone to waste purge...and it makes you invulnerable to arrows with the engage ability and that also allows you to easily get off the block reactionary chains. Sure it is not an "I win" but a very useful spec line.
Thu 23 May 2019 1:49 PM by Sepplord
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 12:44 PM
I love people like you who have obviously never played a Scout making comments on their shield and it’s defense capabilities. Ask any NS/SB/Ranger how that shield effects them when they rip a Scout apart in Melee. Oh and Stealth groups are for assholes with Leprosy.

Ask hunters too pls
Nitpicking examples doesn't help.

And as much as i dislike the stealthzergs too...a good part of the shield benefits come into play in groups, and simply dismissing that, imo, doesn't lead to good balance decisions.

in a similar vein some (not all) archers here demandstuff to make them on par in melee with assassin. And when confronted with the fact that archers have range too, it is explained how bad shooting arrows is. Even if it is bad, it is still there and an advantage over people not having it.
Thu 23 May 2019 2:58 PM by Ardri
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 12:44 PM
Lev wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 11:31 AM
keen wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 8:21 AM
So now that hunters got buffed and rangers got buffed with better buffs, what about scout class?
And then I think we should buff assassin's again so they match those buffs and then we buff hunters again until the whole server is playing stealthers...
Don't know if anyone realised but the stealthers population is already at 20-25% in rvr.
scouts got nothing and hopefully then won't get anything.
in contrary, i think, rangers should have 5.3 bows, hunters 5.0 and only scouts 5.5. so that scouts have longest range and highest critshots. that and the cc/defense from shield should be their point over the other archers. this will never happen, ranger will keep their 5.5 bows and thus stay at top (with quite some margin).
but: scouts have good synergy with mins and inf. albion just makes by far the best stealth groups and lots of people would be heavily annoyed if one of those 3 classes would be buffed even more. in a way those groups have just been buffed with the latest patch, as it's has been made easier to find other assassins for those groups.

I love people like you who have obviously never played a Scout making comments on their shield and it’s defense capabilities. Ask any NS/SB/Ranger how that shield effects them when they rip a Scout apart in Melee. Oh and Stealth groups are for assholes with Leprosy.

Then you're playing scout wrong or playing against garbage scouts. 50 shield + ip3 and GL "ripping" a scout. Also, 2s numb stun then 12s later slam. Btw i heard minstrels are a good class to group with on alb with absorb song and AM. I hear some people even roll alb stealthers just for the minst.
Thu 23 May 2019 3:02 PM by Ardri
Really good buffs for archers along with ranger/hunter buffs. Scouts have minstrels so they don't need extra love. Stealth game will forever be tilted in alb favor.
Thu 23 May 2019 3:21 PM by Pops999
Not every scout has a pocket mins.
Thu 23 May 2019 3:46 PM by chois
Hmmm since when scout have more skill points, the 3 have 2979 so...
Thu 23 May 2019 3:58 PM by Bobbahunter
Trust me. The whining wil start soon about hunters pet.

You (Assassins)will be helpless against the Hunter if you cannot get close enough to melee.
Thu 23 May 2019 4:17 PM by Horus
chois wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 3:46 PM
Hmmm since when scout have more skill points, the 3 have 2979 so...
Hmm, thought I read that somewhere here. I could be wrong.
Thu 23 May 2019 4:46 PM by chois
just look on charplan
Thu 23 May 2019 4:48 PM by chois
and don t forget just 100 unit range difference between ranger and scout , bow 5.5 on alb , 5.4 on hib, but most imposrtant we re loosing the d/q 75 and don t have acces to MOA so now it s a gap between dex on ranger/hunter and the scout
Thu 23 May 2019 6:19 PM by Glimmer
chois wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 4:48 PM
and don t forget just 100 unit range difference between ranger and scout , bow 5.5 on alb , 5.4 on hib, but most imposrtant we re loosing the d/q 75 and don t have acces to MOA so now it s a gap between dex on ranger/hunter and the scout

Hib can craft 5.5s bows.
Thu 23 May 2019 6:30 PM by chois
so it s worst than i though, didnt remember that during th beta on my ranger.
Thu 23 May 2019 9:44 PM by mhenfhis
Ppl most thinkt that scouts shields are like this...

Thu 23 May 2019 10:01 PM by t4coops
when my scout got jumped I droped my paper plate(shield) and my plastic fork(1hand wep) and ran like a girl screaming


fk that shit, bring extra clips for extra shit and blast them fools !

gangsta's don't block we shoot bang bang !
Thu 23 May 2019 10:39 PM by Bumbles
Ardri wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 2:58 PM
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 12:44 PM
Lev wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 11:31 AM
scouts got nothing and hopefully then won't get anything.
in contrary, i think, rangers should have 5.3 bows, hunters 5.0 and only scouts 5.5. so that scouts have longest range and highest critshots. that and the cc/defense from shield should be their point over the other archers. this will never happen, ranger will keep their 5.5 bows and thus stay at top (with quite some margin).
but: scouts have good synergy with mins and inf. albion just makes by far the best stealth groups and lots of people would be heavily annoyed if one of those 3 classes would be buffed even more. in a way those groups have just been buffed with the latest patch, as it's has been made easier to find other assassins for those groups.

I love people like you who have obviously never played a Scout making comments on their shield and it’s defense capabilities. Ask any NS/SB/Ranger how that shield effects them when they rip a Scout apart in Melee. Oh and Stealth groups are for assholes with Leprosy.

Then you're playing scout wrong or playing against garbage scouts. 50 shield + ip3 and GL "ripping" a scout. Also, 2s numb stun then 12s later slam. Btw i heard minstrels are a good class to group with on alb with absorb song and AM. I hear some people even roll alb stealthers just for the minst.

This made me chuckle. Have you played a Scout here, and I mean a "solo" Scout? Not one in a stealth group...? Your premise is based abound having IP3? And Numb? Okay so let's play this out...IP3, how does that work when diseased? Seems like a waste given 80% of your fights are vs stealthers. Numb? Sure they might blow purge and IF you live to get slam off you are 60% snared so you can barely get range to get a crit/standard shot off before they blow legion/Pot and are back to the same health as before you used your bow. I tried the 50 Shield with MoB8 and the duel wield bonuses cut that apart real fast. But I get it, everyone will always say "yeah but you have Minstrels" which is such a dumb argument when they say it to people who DO NOT GROUP. Personal choice yes, and so is trying to play a Scout solo in this state of the game. But you played a Minny on Uth and would solo and yet here you play Hib and group. All personal choices.
Thu 23 May 2019 10:45 PM by Bumbles
Horus wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 1:44 PM
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 12:44 PM
Lev wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 11:31 AM
scouts got nothing and hopefully then won't get anything.
in contrary, i think, rangers should have 5.3 bows, hunters 5.0 and only scouts 5.5. so that scouts have longest range and highest critshots. that and the cc/defense from shield should be their point over the other archers. this will never happen, ranger will keep their 5.5 bows and thus stay at top (with quite some margin).
but: scouts have good synergy with mins and inf. albion just makes by far the best stealth groups and lots of people would be heavily annoyed if one of those 3 classes would be buffed even more. in a way those groups have just been buffed with the latest patch, as it's has been made easier to find other assassins for those groups.

I love people like you who have obviously never played a Scout making comments on their shield and it’s defense capabilities. Ask any NS/SB/Ranger how that shield effects them when they rip a Scout apart in Melee. Oh and Stealth groups are for assholes with Leprosy.

Well scouts do get more spec points.... And that gives you the ability to get to 52 composite in both thrust AND slash at RR5 if you so desire. And with dmg vs armor vulnerability the way it is here, that is huge.

If you sacrifice bow to 12 like melee rangers do you could spec..

37 Slash
38 Thrust
42 Shield
35 Stealth
12 bow

That is a pretty mighty and flexible melee build if you have knowledge of your targets and the ability fast weapon switch that exists on Phoenix. You could even sacrifice a little stealth the get another point or two...And don't under estimate shield. If you are clever you can get someone to waste purge...and it makes you invulnerable to arrows with the engage ability and that also allows you to easily get off the block reactionary chains. Sure it is not an "I win" but a very useful spec line.

Trust me I attempted to run a full Melee Scout and the results were just bad. Thrust vs most target at 21 thrust you are looking at around 80-90 per hit, with 50 Thrust you are looking at a High of 180-190 with a GR of .900+ so base/anytimes are around 140. Slash same thing except I did break 200 with lvl 50 slash amy follow up. But again 2 part chain. Now side snare(slash) or 2 part(thrust) are GREAT vs any class that cant snare you back so dismiss Sins/BM/Skald/Champion all of which are in the solo/small man scene for obvious reasons. Also engage here doesn't work like on Live, it's not 100% to block incoming attacks nor will it work vs targets who have been attacked minus a ridiculously long cool down timer of you just standing there getting beat on. I ran a full melee spec vs full melee Rangers and the results were so lopsided it wasn't even funny. I mean I laughed but still...
Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 AM by gotwqqd
I definitely won’t be playing my favorite class on this server.
If the identifying tools are either matched(bow speed) or neutered(shield) and the abilities for archers are removed(camo/truesight/subpar mos) they seem to only have a pathetic niche role....sniping from safe venue as adds
Fri 24 May 2019 3:09 AM by qq6
@bumbles dis has no effect on IP. Its hard vs assassins for all archers, if you think rangers/hunters roll them, you are very wrong, only way to effectively escape from melee is with a speed burst / after a stun. Vs other archers, scouts actually do pretty well solo, i was playing a melee ranger, and there were a few scouts MUCH lower than me in rr, that were on par with me in melee.
Fri 24 May 2019 3:39 AM by t4coops
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 10:45 PM
Trust me I attempted to run a full Melee Scout and the results were just bad.

think anyone could of told you that ;p

if you want to melee go for a melee char, don't try to melee on a char meant to shoot, or rather, don't try to melee on a char with a 1hand weapon^^
Fri 24 May 2019 3:41 AM by Bumbles
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 3:39 AM
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 10:45 PM
Trust me I attempted to run a full Melee Scout and the results were just bad.

think anyone could of told you that ;p

if you want to melee go for a melee char, don't try to melee on a char meant to shoot, or rather, don't try to melee on a char with a 1hand weapon^^

yeah but I like to shoot myself in the foot. But now I just shoot things and run away and do much better.
Fri 24 May 2019 3:41 AM by Bumbles
qq6 wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 3:09 AM
@bumbles dis has no effect on IP. Its hard vs assassins for all archers, if you think rangers/hunters roll them, you are very wrong, only way to effectively escape from melee is with a speed burst / after a stun. Vs other archers, scouts actually do pretty well solo, i was playing a melee ranger, and there were a few scouts MUCH lower than me in rr, that were on par with me in melee.

WTF since when!?! I could have been rocking IP this whole time?
Fri 24 May 2019 3:42 AM by t4coops
I feel ya on that, no fun to do good on something everyone else has already proven is easy to do

gots to do something dif, don't always work out but more fun then be boring like everyone else
Fri 24 May 2019 3:45 AM by dbeattie71
I haven’t experienced these same issues but my Ranger was built for killing other stealths and it isn’t with a bow lol.
Fri 24 May 2019 3:49 AM by t4coops
long as your mindset is to do what they said you wouldn't, 10x bigger then they said you couldn't^^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7Y20Fch41c&t

and you'll be alright^^

bang bang !
Fri 24 May 2019 5:58 AM by mhenfhis
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 3:49 AM
long as your mindset is to do what they said you wouldn't, 10x bigger then they said you couldn't^^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7Y20Fch41c&t

and you'll be alright^^

bang bang !

And the video is for?... If you think scouts are on that state here... gl... i wish i had all thoose tools... Also gz on killing the brehon zerg ^^
Fri 24 May 2019 6:05 AM by t4coops
none of that was possible on live scouts either till you saw it happen

people wanna sit and push a melee button or 2 buttons and win and if not qq its their class, quit relying on game mechanics to win and make it happen via you


server is irrelevant if you don't understand the concept anyway, from what ive seen archers hit rdici hard here,, not everyone has super hp and super reissts and cl15 and rank10 after 2 weeks of playing with tons of ra's, mov and chest hots and champ wep hots, go crit shot people on live for 10% of their hp with max bow stats and watch them heal back full like 5x over, then come back and tell us how you feel about phoenix^^ the server where its a lot harder to recover from an unexpected attack, on your char that always gets it ^^ lol
Fri 24 May 2019 6:11 AM by t4coops
mhenfhis wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 5:58 AM
. Also gz on killing the brehon zerg ^^

and the only reason you'd think its easy to kill 4 people on a archer is because when you play your grps must get ript by solo' s and you think it has to do with rank...lol^^

which would explain everything else I suppose
Fri 24 May 2019 6:30 AM by mhenfhis
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 6:11 AM
mhenfhis wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 5:58 AM
. Also gz on killing the brehon zerg ^^

and the only reason you'd think its easy to kill 4 people on a archer is because when you play your grps must get ript by solo' s and you think it has to do with rank...lol^^

which would explain everything else I suppose
Did i say is easy to kill 4 ppl on archer? No
Did i say that i group with scout? No. I played mostly the 99% of the time solo with the scout. You are the one that used to group with HIdden, then at rr9-10 started to push for lone enforcer ( gz btw).
Do you kill a bunch of brehons on the video? yes
Fri 24 May 2019 6:34 AM by t4coops
i think my last solo vid was droped around rr9-10, but good try on trying to impress your new friends here
(but i guess that's your problem then ? just need higher rank to make your class work ? just a bit more rank u need is all always right ? lolol)

hopefuly bashing something that u can never reproduce(which was mostly recorded in 1 day mind you) will make your friends think your cool, because your lack of success in rvr on a simple class def aint getting the job done \; lol
Fri 24 May 2019 6:41 AM by mhenfhis
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 6:34 AM
i think my last solo vid was droped before rr9-10, but good try on trying to impress your new friends here
(but i guess that's your problem then ? just need higher rank to make your class work ? just a bit more rank u need is all always right ? lolol)

hopefuly bashing me will make them think your cool, because your lack of success in rvr on a simple class def aint getting the job done \; lol
Seems i hit some1 nerve.

I was not bashing you. Just wanted to make the point that the scouts are not the same you played on live.
Fri 24 May 2019 6:56 AM by t4coops
i know, they are way better here, for the reasons listed, that's the whole point


having a char that pops out of the blue and starts fighting where people have a TON less hp and resists and tons less tools to recover hp gives u a huge advantage


maybe every assassin having blur and ezmode swappable poisons would be easier for you^^


regardless sry to derail the thread, just saw something funny I couldn't help but respond to, don't mind me carry on !
Fri 24 May 2019 7:03 AM by t4coops
and like the vid says, sit back and take note, and perhaps you will stop choke^^


one day you will embrace having a disadvantage, because winning is not fun otherwise, but aparantly your still trying to figure out how to make it work with the odds in your favor

but don't worry its ok, I suck to we can be frands., there is a lot of us and we has fun !


in the mean time ill serenade your eyes and let you witness style and grace in its most purest form ;p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdXlqDUDhzA
Fri 24 May 2019 7:05 AM by mhenfhis
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 6:56 AM
i know, they are way better here, for the reasons listed, that's the whole point


having a char that pops out of the blue and starts fighting where people have a TON less hp and resists and tons less tools to recover hp gives u a huge advantage


maybe every assassin having blur and ezmode swappable poisons would be easier for you^^


regardless sry to derail the thread, just saw something funny I couldn't help but respond to, don't mind me carry on !
Are you playing one here ? No. That should end the discussion i guess....
The already have a more powerful poison system here with the swap command and no cd on poisons like on live. They dont have blurr, neither i have zephyr.
Fri 24 May 2019 7:13 AM by t4coops
mhenfhis wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 7:05 AM
Are you playing one here ? No. That should end the discussion i guess....

nah, but seeing as i didn't play daoc in over 10 years when i made my scout and made 1vMultiple vids(that no one else was doing on the class. still haven't, and prob wont ever, and in just a matter of months), in a version of daoc ive 0 idea about, and with old items and bad spec and yellow buffs, and still absolutely laughed at everyone on a char that had advantage over no one, and now we talking about the version of daoc i actualy played in, well take my word for it ;p

and im not even a good player, which is the whole reason im confused on your problem ;\ lol

*edit* and sorry this got so off track no reason for any of us to be mean or fight sry i have the inability to not be brutaly blunt when trying to transfer my thougths to others^^ lol ;\ ....afk before it continues to much

cheers and <3 to all !
Fri 24 May 2019 7:40 AM by Sepplord
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 10:39 PM
Ardri wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 2:58 PM
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 12:44 PM
I love people like you who have obviously never played a Scout making comments on their shield and it’s defense capabilities. Ask any NS/SB/Ranger how that shield effects them when they rip a Scout apart in Melee. Oh and Stealth groups are for assholes with Leprosy.

Then you're playing scout wrong or playing against garbage scouts. 50 shield + ip3 and GL "ripping" a scout. Also, 2s numb stun then 12s later slam. Btw i heard minstrels are a good class to group with on alb with absorb song and AM. I hear some people even roll alb stealthers just for the minst.

This made me chuckle. Have you played a Scout here, and I mean a "solo" Scout? Not one in a stealth group...? Your premise is based abound having IP3? And Numb? Okay so let's play this out...IP3, how does that work when diseased? Seems like a waste given 80% of your fights are vs stealthers. Numb? Sure they might blow purge and IF you live to get slam off you are 60% snared so you can barely get range to get a crit/standard shot off before they blow legion/Pot and are back to the same health as before you used your bow. I tried the 50 Shield with MoB8 and the duel wield bonuses cut that apart real fast. But I get it, everyone will always say "yeah but you have Minstrels" which is such a dumb argument when they say it to people who DO NOT GROUP. Personal choice yes, and so is trying to play a Scout solo in this state of the game. But you played a Minny on Uth and would solo and yet here you play Hib and group. All personal choices.

quite some irony in you chuckling about other people knowledge regarding scouts and then showing that you have no idea yourself and don't even know how your RealmAbilities work

But i am sure, you are perfect in everything else, never missplay and therfor your opinion is still fact despite that minor detail you missed
Fri 24 May 2019 7:45 AM by mhenfhis
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 7:40 AM
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 10:39 PM
Ardri wrote:
Thu 23 May 2019 2:58 PM
Then you're playing scout wrong or playing against garbage scouts. 50 shield + ip3 and GL "ripping" a scout. Also, 2s numb stun then 12s later slam. Btw i heard minstrels are a good class to group with on alb with absorb song and AM. I hear some people even roll alb stealthers just for the minst.

This made me chuckle. Have you played a Scout here, and I mean a "solo" Scout? Not one in a stealth group...? Your premise is based abound having IP3? And Numb? Okay so let's play this out...IP3, how does that work when diseased? Seems like a waste given 80% of your fights are vs stealthers. Numb? Sure they might blow purge and IF you live to get slam off you are 60% snared so you can barely get range to get a crit/standard shot off before they blow legion/Pot and are back to the same health as before you used your bow. I tried the 50 Shield with MoB8 and the duel wield bonuses cut that apart real fast. But I get it, everyone will always say "yeah but you have Minstrels" which is such a dumb argument when they say it to people who DO NOT GROUP. Personal choice yes, and so is trying to play a Scout solo in this state of the game. But you played a Minny on Uth and would solo and yet here you play Hib and group. All personal choices.

quite some irony in you chuckling about other people knowledge regarding scouts and then showing that you have no idea yourself and don't even know how your RealmAbilities work

But i am sure, you are perfect in everything else, never missplay and therfor your opinion is still fact despite that minor detail you missed

despite the ip and diseased part, the rest is valid haha
Fri 24 May 2019 7:45 AM by t4coops
mhenfhis wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 6:30 AM
You are the one that used to group with HIdden, then at rr9-10 started to push for lone enforcer ( gz btw).

oh ya and for the record the 10 solo posters they mailed out for the rvr tournament the 2nd month I was back on a new char after not playing in 10+ years, when I was like rr5-6, looks real nice hanging on the wall


id prob sell it to you if the price is right, since you cant get 1 and all ;p
Fri 24 May 2019 8:46 AM by Sepplord
mhenfhis wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 7:45 AM
despite the ip and diseased part, the rest is valid haha

Sepplord wrote: But i am sure, you are perfect in everything else, never missplay and therefor your opinion is still fact despite that minor detail you missed

As predicted...


Sorry, but when you ride the high horse and ridicule others without even having factual proof that they are wrong, while having really huge holes in your own knowledge, then i won't believe you when you say everything else is correct.
Chances are you have no idea what you are talking about, but think you are always right. When you get proven wrong you claim: "yeah that was just one thing...i am perfect otherwise...

Shows how unchanged your attitude is...start questioning yourself from time to time
Fri 24 May 2019 8:52 AM by mhenfhis
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 8:46 AM
mhenfhis wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 7:45 AM
despite the ip and diseased part, the rest is valid haha

Sepplord wrote: But i am sure, you are perfect in everything else, never missplay and therefor your opinion is still fact despite that minor detail you missed

As predicted...


Sorry, but when you ride the high horse and ridicule others without even having factual proof that they are wrong, while having really huge holes in your own knowledge, then i won't believe you when you say everything else is correct.
Chances are you have no idea what you are talking about, but think you are always right. When you get proven wrong you claim: "yeah that was just one thing...i am perfect otherwise...

Shows how unchanged your attitude is...start questioning yourself from time to time

Did i ridicule others?
Fri 24 May 2019 8:59 AM by Sepplord
mhenfhis wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 8:52 AM
Did i ridicule others?

Chuckling at someones comment, followed with a bunch of passive agressive questions wasn't trying to ridicule that commenter?

And i don't think you believe dismissing others (by claiming that they have no idea what they are talling about and probably have never played a scout etc.) had any goal besides pushing your agenda at the cost of the other person.

Nice backpedling though... /s

EDIT: i fucked up...i am the moron. mhenfis joined the discussion midway and i didn't notice i was now talking to a different person
Fri 24 May 2019 9:20 AM by mhenfhis
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 8:59 AM
mhenfhis wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 8:52 AM
Did i ridicule others?

Chuckling at someones comment, followed with a bunch of passive agressive questions wasn't trying to ridicule that commenter?

And i don't think you believe dismissing others (by claiming that they have no idea what they are talling about and probably have never played a scout etc.) had any goal besides pushing your agenda at the cost of the other person.

Nice backpedling though... /s

ok i give up.

Think this post was a about the state of archers on Phoenix, not on Ywain o back in 2002, or how to kill ppl with scout with artifacts and ml abilities. That why i said all the videos he post are out of context.
Fri 24 May 2019 12:46 PM by t4coops
it wasnt supposed to be in context, it was supposed to inspire you to quit being a bad noob and take something with a disadvantage and win anyway


stop cry your char isn't good enough when the only thing not good enough is you
Fri 24 May 2019 1:15 PM by relvinian
Archers dont need love anymore.
Fri 24 May 2019 2:03 PM by mhenfhis
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 12:46 PM
it wasnt supposed to be in context, it was supposed to inspire you to quit being a bad noob and take something with a disadvantage and win anyway


stop cry your char isn't good enough when the only thing not good enough is you

just come to the forum to cry haha, i am playing the scout as my main in rvr , almost rr6 now, all by my self OMG, although i am lvl a infil now
Sun 26 May 2019 12:03 PM by Siouxsie
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 7:03 AM
and like the vid says, sit back and take note, and perhaps you will stop choke^^


one day you will embrace having a disadvantage, because winning is not fun otherwise, but aparantly your still trying to figure out how to make it work with the odds in your favor

but don't worry its ok, I suck to we can be frands., there is a lot of us and we has fun !


in the mean time ill serenade your eyes and let you witness style and grace in its most purest form ;p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdXlqDUDhzA

Must be nice -- you can see assassins from afar and just smash them before they reach you.

Here on Phoenix, as soon as you see the Nightshade.. they're on top of you and they swing with both blades 3x faster than you can with a spear, they also evade you 37% of the time, and even if you use purge and IP3, you die anyway.

It's insanity.
Sun 26 May 2019 5:21 PM by Freedomcall
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 26 May 2019 12:03 PM
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 7:03 AM
and like the vid says, sit back and take note, and perhaps you will stop choke^^


one day you will embrace having a disadvantage, because winning is not fun otherwise, but aparantly your still trying to figure out how to make it work with the odds in your favor

but don't worry its ok, I suck to we can be frands., there is a lot of us and we has fun !


in the mean time ill serenade your eyes and let you witness style and grace in its most purest form ;p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdXlqDUDhzA

Must be nice -- you can see assassins from afar and just smash them before they reach you.

Here on Phoenix, as soon as you see the Nightshade.. they're on top of you and they swing with both blades 3x faster than you can with a spear, they also evade you 37% of the time, and even if you use purge and IP3, you die anyway.

It's insanity.

Who evades your attack 37%? I just checked my screenshot vs you, but mine was 30%.
Maybe you were unbuffed when you saw 37%?

Anyway hunters can add from 2000 range with 300+ dmg every shot.
And that is how Limpshot is farming hibs with loads of his hunter friends in molvik.
Check out how much insane amount of rps he has farmed on herald. #1 rank this week with 902k rps.
Why would you ever play assassins if they don't have advantage over archers in melee?
If you want melee fights, roll SB.
Sun 26 May 2019 5:32 PM by Leandrys
Freedomcall wrote:
Sun 26 May 2019 5:21 PM
Who evades your attack 37%? I just checked my screenshot vs you, but mine was 30%.
Maybe you were unbuffed when you saw 37%?

Anyway hunters can add from 2000 range with 300+ dmg every shot.


"300+" dmg every shot. No answer of importance was hurted in the making of this reply.
Sun 26 May 2019 5:56 PM by Dominus
Freedomcall wrote:
Sun 26 May 2019 5:21 PM
Check out how much insane amount of rps he has farmed on herald. #1 rank this week with 902k rps.
Why would you ever play assassins if they don't have advantage over archers in melee?
If you want melee fights, roll SB.

well to be fair, they're playing the game full-time (40 hrs a week) so I'd expect their rps to be high. And, of the top 20 rp earners this week, 3 of 20 are mids.. sooo.
Sun 26 May 2019 9:39 PM by t4coops
quit living out your lives as some 1v1'sta's, and go fe9 50 bow and pop off some shots from yo bow and blast them flopsy suckas !
Mon 27 May 2019 12:31 AM by relvinian
i would say that hunter pet is now STUPID
Mon 27 May 2019 6:54 AM by Siouxsie
Freedomcall wrote:
Sun 26 May 2019 5:21 PM
Who evades your attack 37%? I just checked my screenshot vs you, but mine was 30%.
Maybe you were unbuffed when you saw 37%?

Anyway hunters can add from 2000 range with 300+ dmg every shot.
And that is how Limpshot is farming hibs with loads of his hunter friends in molvik.
Check out how much insane amount of rps he has farmed on herald. #1 rank this week with 902k rps.
Why would you ever play assassins if they don't have advantage over archers in melee?
If you want melee fights, roll SB.

Who are you? Can't tell from your name.
Anyway, there are a lot of full-time players on here. I'm a casual player. I have a full-time job so I can't play 24/7 like some.
Mon 27 May 2019 7:39 AM by Dindelion
t4coops wrote:
Sun 26 May 2019 9:39 PM
quit living out your lives as some 1v1'sta's, and go fe9 50 bow and pop off some shots from yo bow and blast them flopsy suckas !

A lot of archers would love to actually do that, you know, that sweet sniper spec. Especially Scouts, since their melee capabilities is piss.
But unfortunately, bow damage is soft capped at 52 composite and there is no bow skill worth going past 35.
Mon 27 May 2019 10:49 AM by chois
Melee for scout are not crappy (and i play a scout), pbm is one handed where u take full evade/blok/parry in front of you when your self defense shield and evade are reduced by 25% due to dual wield in front, more over the lost of spec dex diminue your defense and your melee / range damage and speed thats the bigs problems. One handed damage are the same for all sneaks, and i say just the main hand.
Mon 27 May 2019 11:22 AM by Dindelion
chois wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:49 AM
Melee for scout are not crappy (and i play a scout), pbm is one handed where u take full evade/blok/parry in front of you when your self defense shield and evade are reduced by 25% due to dual wield in front, more over the lost of spec dex diminue your defense and your melee / range damage and speed thats the bigs problems. One handed damage are the same for all sneaks, and i say just the main hand.

You literally explained why Scout melee sucks, your main opponents (stealthers and archers) are far better in that domain. Swinging a 1H with a shit melee table is bad, having a small shield against DW or 2H+pet is not very good either.

Being defensive has almost always been bad in Daoc because the longer the fight, the more chance you get added. Here it's even worse, if the fight is longer than 20s you're pretty much dead lol.
Mon 27 May 2019 11:52 AM by Sepplord
why would someone with superior ranged abilities and better groupability be on par melee wise?

How would that be balanced?


but i only solo / want to specc for melee:

well...then you made a poor classchoice
Mon 27 May 2019 12:03 PM by Dindelion
How are scout better than ranger in the ranged department ? They both use 5.5 bows but ranger has self buff and DW lol
Mon 27 May 2019 12:06 PM by Sepplord
Dindelion wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 12:03 PM
How are scout better than ranger in the ranged department ? They both use 5.5 bows but ranger has self buff and DW lol

i was under false assumption that rangers didn't have as slow bows as alb did.
Do they have the same range as scouts too
But a good point you bring up, imo ranger-melee is over the top considering their range capabilities at the same time and should be tuned down
Mon 27 May 2019 12:14 PM by t4coops
the dude arguing with me don't even know what range archers have and talking bout bow speeds ?

lol
Mon 27 May 2019 12:19 PM by Dindelion
Scouts have 100 more range than Rangers, and Rangers have 100 more than Hunters iirc, somebody will confirm. But I'm absolutely not for nerfing rangers. To elaborate a bit more, yeah those classes should be able to solo quite decently, they are stealth classes after all, they have no place in a visible group. Right now I'm having a hard time figuring which class a Scout beats in 1v1. Archers are definitely at the bottom of the food chain.

I'm fine with Scout being the worst in melee, they actually should be worse than their counter part, but they should be way better with a bow then, and for now that's not really the case compared to a ranger, especially since both ranger / hunter get pretty good self D/Q buff, which is, in the end, better Bow DPS.

t4coops wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 12:14 PM
the dude arguing with me don't even know what range archers have and talking bout bow speeds ?

lol

Then explain yourself smartass, Bow damage is soft capped at 52 composite in Bow, how is that wrong ?
Linking Scouts videos you made on live don't make any sense btw, the class here is completely different.

By the way are you 12 ?
Mon 27 May 2019 4:31 PM by jelzinga_EU
t4coops wrote:
Fri 24 May 2019 6:56 AM
i know, they are way better here, for the reasons listed, that's the whole point


having a char that pops out of the blue and starts fighting where people have a TON less hp and resists and tons less tools to recover hp gives u a huge advantage


maybe every assassin having blur and ezmode swappable poisons would be easier for you^^


regardless sry to derail the thread, just saw something funny I couldn't help but respond to, don't mind me carry on !

Having played an archer in "old frontiers" and "new frontiers / new Archery" and a small bit on Phoenix (mostly in beta) I do not agree with your assessment. When the new Archery came, initially a lot of the old-school archers preferred the old system. I was one of those people, but later on I thought the new archery is actually better and there was a lot of nostalgia attached to old archery.

However, when you look at the performance of archers in the new system (and in your video) - you will notice they perform a lot better. Not only because of the new archery, but also the tools given to archers. If you look at your video on the first fight (vs the 4 rangers):

You hit your RR5, not on Phoenix.
Then you gain an ablative (CL-ability) - not on Phoenix.
You proceed to kite, restealth and kick in Track, not on Phoenix.
You start to shoot with a fast Critshot followed by Lithic Shot which does quite good damage, not on Phoenix
When interrupted, you hit PB-shot to finish ranger off, not on Phoenix
You throw a javelin to interrupt the 2, not on Phoenix
You speed off into the water, not on Phoenix
You proceed to phaseshift after you get FZ' ed and shot, not on Phoenix
You restealth and Track out the 3rd archer, not on Phoenix

The entire fight comprises out of stuff which isn't available on Phoenix. I didn't even list Remedy, the new PB-shot buffs, Snare/Root-shot, Powershot going through bubble, Crit eats bubble etc etc.

Archers have their fair share of problems on live, but Phoenix is entirely different and has other problems. Even with the lower HP/resists the damage is (relatively) longer, mostly due to bubbles and no shield-penetration such as CS/Powershot-abilities. Up till latest change in detection, there was no way to avoid perfs, no Track to shoot assassin before they go on to you, no Remedy to avoid the debuffs, snares, diseases and lifebanes. Sure, assassins on live can cycle poisons, but with Remedy that is not a big deal. Without Remedy and FZ/PS, there is no way to "get away" from a good assassin, so you're stuck in melee for the entire fight.

Guess what you're doing in your video --> avoid melee at all cost and the only tactic you showed which would work here is the Engage --> Brutalize trick you did in your final fight against the RR5 2H Shadowblade. Unfortunately that fight you also used Remedy, so you would have died due to Lifebane

As you can see, your Archer-movie is entirely based on abilities archers on Phoenix do not have. So go back in time, think when you played scout in OF (did you?) then remove your buffbot, remove arrow flight-time, add SC on your enemies and remove any nice RA (Avoid Pain for Ranger/Hunter, Truesight) - every enemy has Purge up (coz no 30 mins CD) and what is left is really Phoenix.

Once the new detection settles in on Phoenix I can already tell you what is next: Not much will chance, archers still suck - but buffing them is a tricky part because you end up with a bunch of archers teaming up and ganking loads of small-men.
Mon 27 May 2019 5:50 PM by t4coops
not gonna lie u typed to much I didn't read it


shrugs all I know is archers hit my ani for like 700+ before crits and ive 1200 hp, I like 3-4 shot most people tops with my bombers, I cant imagine its to difficult to get a few shots off on an archer sitting in stealth, and scout should be super easy here, anyone who doesn't have purge up dies to scout everytime, even on live with 5 sec slam instead of 9, and if not u just slam and kite till ucan do it again then its over

but you have t o spec fe9 and actualy do dmg, same as on live them melee shits sux, you gotta pop off fat rounds in the few oportunitys you have to shoot.. and always keep moving

you keep say archer melee sux, exactly read what u said, archer melee sux, so stop trying to keep using it

(altho hunter melee rips that killdozer guy hits hard as hell, but he got a gray pet so prob like 50 wep with 2hander so lol)
Mon 27 May 2019 5:57 PM by t4coops
and Im not saying you should kill assaisns all the time or w/e but, having played one recently on live and then playing here they seem a lot better here to me (in general anyway perhaps assasins aren't so easy altho should be super easy for a scout atleast with slam and no one having blur)

if I only had to get like 4-5 total shots off to kill an assassin that cant blur to me I think I would be in daoc heaven

you just have to try a lot harder then oh, I shot him, he got to me, and way out melee'd me again but still I don't learn and stand here trying, qq arhcers need a boost....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBE_JSlma2U

sit and melee on live and get trashed to, and I know its not the same here but just showing you how you might have better luck, max out the bow dmg and dance !

(not to mention ocne somones ike 25% hp they lsoe run speed and its over, if you cant pop off like 75% dmg to someone real quick with stealth and ranged dmg before you fold then I dunno what ot tell you)

dman I qq'd u typed to much then did to much myself, sry ! and I prob wont come bac kto read just bored and trying to help ! ill stay out of it cheers)
Mon 27 May 2019 9:46 PM by Tamy
Can someone update me?`

- Sin vs. Archers same Stealth detection now?
- Ranger/Hunter buffed through Selfbuffs?
- Hunter Pet buffed (dmg/speed)?
- Scout nothing

Anything else? Thanks
Mon 27 May 2019 9:58 PM by Turano
Tamy wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 9:46 PM
Can someone update me?`

- Sin vs. Archers same Stealth detection now?

Anything else? Thanks

Archers now have better stealth detection than assas.
Assas still can see each other only at 125 range while archers can see archers and assas at 250 range
Mon 27 May 2019 10:15 PM by Yokahu
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 9:58 PM
Tamy wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 9:46 PM
Can someone update me?`

- Sin vs. Archers same Stealth detection now?

Anything else? Thanks

Archers now have better stealth detection than assas.
Assas still can see each other only at 125 range while archers can see archers and assas at 250 range

I don’t think that’s accurate; this is what the patch note said:

- archers now have the same detection range against archers and assassins as assassins have against archers
Mon 27 May 2019 10:18 PM by Turano
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:15 PM
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 9:58 PM
Tamy wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 9:46 PM
Can someone update me?`

- Sin vs. Archers same Stealth detection now?

Anything else? Thanks

Archers now have better stealth detection than assas.
Assas still can see each other only at 125 range while archers can see archers and assas at 250 range

I don’t think that’s accurate; this is what the patch note said:

- archers now have the same detection range against archers and assassins as assassins have against archers
You tell me it's not accurate, then you quote the patchnote that tells exactly what i said?
Mon 27 May 2019 10:27 PM by stinsfire
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:18 PM
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:15 PM
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 9:58 PM
Archers now have better stealth detection than assas.
Assas still can see each other only at 125 range while archers can see archers and assas at 250 range

I don’t think that’s accurate; this is what the patch note said:

- archers now have the same detection range against archers and assassins as assassins have against archers
You tell me it's not accurate, then you quote the patchnote that tells exactly what i said?

Yeah, I wondered if it was just bad choice of words again (phoenix patchnotes sometimes arent very clear and vague) or if assassins also see everyone on 250 now.
Mon 27 May 2019 10:39 PM by gotwqqd
Sounds like archers see other archers and assaddins @250
Assassins see archers @250
Assassins see assassins @125
Mon 27 May 2019 10:40 PM by Yokahu
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:18 PM
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:15 PM
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 9:58 PM
Archers now have better stealth detection than assas.
Assas still can see each other only at 125 range while archers can see archers and assas at 250 range

I don’t think that’s accurate; this is what the patch note said:

- archers now have the same detection range against archers and assassins as assassins have against archers
You tell me it's not accurate, then you quote the patchnote that tells exactly what i said?

Does that patch note says that archer have the same detection as assassins have against archers? So they are all the same, but you said archers can see assassins further away?
Mon 27 May 2019 10:43 PM by stinsfire
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:40 PM
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:18 PM
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:15 PM
I don’t think that’s accurate; this is what the patch note said:

- archers now have the same detection range against archers and assassins as assassins have against archers
You tell me it's not accurate, then you quote the patchnote that tells exactly what i said?

Does that patch note says that archer have the same detection as assassins have against archers? So they are all the same, but you said archers can see assassins further away?

That is what we are not really sure about, but it seems as if phoenix devs didn't want assassins to be able to find assassins easier but for hunters to be able to avoid assas.

So from what I understand it is like this:
gotwqqd wrote: Sounds like archers see other archers and assaddins @250
Assassins see archers @250
Assassins see assassins @125
Mon 27 May 2019 10:50 PM by Turano
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:40 PM
Does that patch note says that archer have the same detection as assassins have against archers? So they are all the same, but you said archers can see assassins further away?
Ok lets start at the very beginning
Normaly stealthers can see each other at 125 units. So far so easy.
Now assassins get a special ability at 16 stealth spec called detect hidden. That enables them to see stealthing classes that don't have detect hidden at double the range, that makes 250.
So Assassins can see archers and minstrels (which both don't have detect hidden) at 250 units while they see each other (because they have detect hidden which prevents them from being detected further by said ability) at 125 units. ok?

Now here comes the custom change, archers are now allowed to see all stealthers as far as assassins see archers, which is 250 units.
Nothing has been changed on the detection assa vs assa, they still see each other at 125 units as it has always been

voila! Archers have the best stealth detection now (where is a clap emote when you need one)
Tue 28 May 2019 3:32 AM by Tamy
Thanks for the heads up guys and girls. Although I would have prefered if they would have just put every stealther on 125 range to each other.

It's unbelievable that there are still crying hunters out there with these recent changes. He basically turned into the kite-stealther No. 1.
Tue 28 May 2019 3:38 AM by jelzinga_EU
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:50 PM
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:40 PM
Does that patch note says that archer have the same detection as assassins have against archers? So they are all the same, but you said archers can see assassins further away?
Ok lets start at the very beginning
Normaly stealthers can see each other at 125 units. So far so easy.
Now assassins get a special ability at 16 stealth spec called detect hidden. That enables them to see stealthing classes that don't have detect hidden at double the range, that makes 250.
So Assassins can see archers and minstrels (which both don't have detect hidden) at 250 units while they see each other (because they have detect hidden which prevents them from being detected further by said ability) at 125 units. ok?

Now here comes the custom change, archers are now allowed to see all stealthers as far as assassins see archers, which is 250 units.
Nothing has been changed on the detection assa vs assa, they still see each other at 125 units as it has always been

voila! Archers have the best stealth detection now (where is a clap emote when you need one)

I thought the same thing, but gruenes_schaf says it is the same now, since Detect Hidden isn't working like that anymore, see this Discord-convo:


Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:44 PM
With the change, archers will be the best detecters as they will see enemy assassin's from further than an assassin will see another assassin
Since their detect hidden doesn't work against other detect hidden classes. Might make archers very wanted in groups. Guess that is scout ...

Jahrnull | Altknight Last Wednesday at 8:52 PM
I’m not following @Sprouty seems they are equal

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:53 PM
No. An assassin his detect hidden is cancelled when he faces a class who also has detect hidden

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:55 PM
Well they might customize everything, but afaik I see enemy assassin's from less distance than enemy archers?
But maybe that has been removed, I'm not sure, I didn't test it after beta

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:56 PM
the class based detection range kind of worked similar to detect hidden and still does so in case of assassin vs assassin or assassin vs minstrel

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
You showed me code snippet in beta where detect hidden was a multiplier on detect

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
that was before

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
Before what

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
it was changed :p

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
Recently?
Or in beta too?

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:58 PM
october

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:59 PM
well until the archer change today it kind of had the exact same effect
although not exactly doubling it against archers but close
Tue 28 May 2019 6:04 AM by Lillebror
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:50 PM
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:40 PM
Does that patch note says that archer have the same detection as assassins have against archers? So they are all the same, but you said archers can see assassins further away?
Ok lets start at the very beginning
Normaly stealthers can see each other at 125 units. So far so easy.
Now assassins get a special ability at 16 stealth spec called detect hidden. That enables them to see stealthing classes that don't have detect hidden at double the range, that makes 250.
So Assassins can see archers and minstrels (which both don't have detect hidden) at 250 units while they see each other (because they have detect hidden which prevents them from being detected further by said ability) at 125 units. ok?

Now here comes the custom change, archers are now allowed to see all stealthers as far as assassins see archers, which is 250 units.
Nothing has been changed on the detection assa vs assa, they still see each other at 125 units as it has always been

voila! Archers have the best stealth detection now (where is a clap emote when you need one)

This is not correct, an Assassin and now after changes i guess also Archer see a Minstrel from 480 ish.
All classes with out stealth + minstrels sees Archers and Assassins from 125
Tue 28 May 2019 7:43 AM by Sepplord
jelzinga_EU wrote:
Tue 28 May 2019 3:38 AM
Turano wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:50 PM
Yokahu wrote:
Mon 27 May 2019 10:40 PM
Does that patch note says that archer have the same detection as assassins have against archers? So they are all the same, but you said archers can see assassins further away?
Ok lets start at the very beginning
Normaly stealthers can see each other at 125 units. So far so easy.
Now assassins get a special ability at 16 stealth spec called detect hidden. That enables them to see stealthing classes that don't have detect hidden at double the range, that makes 250.
So Assassins can see archers and minstrels (which both don't have detect hidden) at 250 units while they see each other (because they have detect hidden which prevents them from being detected further by said ability) at 125 units. ok?

Now here comes the custom change, archers are now allowed to see all stealthers as far as assassins see archers, which is 250 units.
Nothing has been changed on the detection assa vs assa, they still see each other at 125 units as it has always been

voila! Archers have the best stealth detection now (where is a clap emote when you need one)

I thought the same thing, but gruenes_schaf says it is the same now, since Detect Hidden isn't working like that anymore, see this Discord-convo:


Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:44 PM
With the change, archers will be the best detecters as they will see enemy assassin's from further than an assassin will see another assassin
Since their detect hidden doesn't work against other detect hidden classes. Might make archers very wanted in groups. Guess that is scout ...

Jahrnull | Altknight Last Wednesday at 8:52 PM
I’m not following @Sprouty seems they are equal

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:53 PM
No. An assassin his detect hidden is cancelled when he faces a class who also has detect hidden

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:55 PM
Well they might customize everything, but afaik I see enemy assassin's from less distance than enemy archers?
But maybe that has been removed, I'm not sure, I didn't test it after beta

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:56 PM
the class based detection range kind of worked similar to detect hidden and still does so in case of assassin vs assassin or assassin vs minstrel

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
You showed me code snippet in beta where detect hidden was a multiplier on detect

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
that was before

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
Before what

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
it was changed :p

Sprouty Last Wednesday at 8:57 PM
Recently?
Or in beta too?

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:58 PM
october

gruenes_schaf Last Wednesday at 8:59 PM
well until the archer change today it kind of had the exact same effect
although not exactly doubling it against archers but close

Afaik that'S just a technicality...there is no detect hidden anymore, and there is no check for detection if the target has or has not detect hidden. They just programmed it flat and technically it still works the same, it's just not called detect hidden anymore
Tue 28 May 2019 8:03 AM by jelzinga_EU
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 28 May 2019 7:43 AM
Afaik that'S just a technicality...there is no detect hidden anymore, and there is no check for detection if the target has or has not detect hidden. They just programmed it flat and technically it still works the same, it's just not called detect hidden anymore

Bit too lazy to properly test it - but if assassins have the same detect as archers - then that would be the same as having no Detect Hidden anymore (as before that was "the differentiator" in detection)
Tue 28 May 2019 8:39 AM by Sepplord
jelzinga_EU wrote:
Tue 28 May 2019 8:03 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 28 May 2019 7:43 AM
Afaik that'S just a technicality...there is no detect hidden anymore, and there is no check for detection if the target has or has not detect hidden. They just programmed it flat and technically it still works the same, it's just not called detect hidden anymore

Bit too lazy to properly test it - but if assassins have the same detect as archers - then that would be the same as having no Detect Hidden anymore (as before that was "the differentiator" in detection)

i guess the differentiator just isn't has detect hidden or not, but is class infi/SB/NS or not. Assassins don't see other assassins as far as they see archers, that has not changed.

(i am unsure if we all are saying the same thing or if there is actually a different understanding of the current situation )
Tue 28 May 2019 9:49 PM by t4coops
this has nothing to do with anything and totally unrelated but perhaps atleast a moment of joy to see it happen !

to all the archers in the place with style and grace who hate stealth zergs huaeuhaeuhae's forever representin for ya !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdXlqDUDhzA&t

it was every stealthers wish to rise, above them coward assjaming stealth zergers we despise !
Wed 29 May 2019 6:11 PM by Sindralor
Traitors Dagger is the real MVP there
Thu 30 May 2019 1:53 AM by Bumbles
So now with Rangers all seemingly going full melee and Hunter pets getting buffed, what about Scouts? They are sorely pressed to do anything when in melee. I've stated before that even when people blow purge on numb by the time you get range after a slam you can get 2 shots off which is negated by legion and a heal pot. Shield with a spec of 42+15 and MoB9 gives a 34% block rate against DW classes main and I think it was in the high teens vs their off hand. On average they hit for 120-140 MH and 80-90 off hand while on my Scout even when specced 44 Thrust or 39 Slash I hit for 80-110 max. I mean even 50 Thrust with Dragonfang hits were only in the 130-140 area. Hunter at least we can defend against but now you just have a pet hitting you for 120+ on top of the hunter attacks that make it through...

Scouts could use something. Anyone who says otherwise has never tried playing one Solo(here not on Live). Scouts should NOT be punished because of Minstrels. And for all the Sins who will chime in please tell me how many "solo" Scouts you find and when you do they are free RPs for the most part unless it's a PERFECT scenario.

I play my Scout solo but I know that if I actually want to make RPs I need to add on fights otherwise I could play for a few hours and make less than 10k and that's just not fun when this game is all based around the RP creep.

Honest input, I know I prefer to find more solo classes. Stealth crews are horrible other than the social aspect I suppose. I've seen a TON more solo Hunters with the changes and that's great as I have a slight chance vs. them if they don't have IP up. Give a class a slight boost and more come out to try their hand at a solo fight. Most if not all Scouts do not solo due to the inability to make a solid stream of RPs. As of right now Scouts are simply adding machines, and if that's the hand so be it.
Thu 30 May 2019 4:36 AM by t4coops
just so u know insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expect different results, how many time do a scout qq his melee isn't as good as hunter or ranger, yet when get jumped sit there and try to melee them again lol

treat your shield slams like minstrel stun, you got ranged dmg and insta stun, if they don't have purge and you still cant win stop playing daoc, if they do have purge then put ur damn c har on autorun and count in your head till the immunity is up then slam them again and put them away


live is dumb as shit with melee to, everyone got hot chests and heal procs and you got some shitty 1hand wep lol, and your not beating 2 of anything with melee for sure, didn't take me but like 1-2 fights to be like ok im never using my melee weapon again lol, ima abuse the hell out of this stun and keeps movin, all I gotta is blow their purge and run till I can slam again, and all you need is 1 inch on someone to run as long as you need, and if any stop to dd u or something dumb then its totyaly over for them

scout is a class you have to make win, not just run up on someone and hope they sux, you have the disadvantage almost always, its a lame class I stopped and never play again lol
Thu 30 May 2019 4:47 AM by t4coops
I suggest logging off your scout and go moc all the stealthers down

it gave me great joy ;\ lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEI4fgNnhEI
Thu 30 May 2019 5:00 AM by Bumbles
Biggest issue is Bow does not do enough damage here. Playing a Scout on Live is easy and you can do as you describe but here it's a different story..Also another thing i'm noticing is even running Falcon Eye 9 crits seems to happen on rapid fire but very rarely happen on crit shot/regular shots. But could just be the number of arrows going out, but I don't think Ive ever had a crit on crit shot...
Thu 30 May 2019 6:55 AM by jelzinga_EU
Bumbles wrote:
Thu 30 May 2019 5:00 AM
Biggest issue is Bow does not do enough damage here. Playing a Scout on Live is easy and you can do as you describe but here it's a different story..Also another thing i'm noticing is even running Falcon Eye 9 crits seems to happen on rapid fire but very rarely happen on crit shot/regular shots. But could just be the number of arrows going out, but I don't think Ive ever had a crit on crit shot...

You can't crit on a Critical Shot, so that makes sense. In this iteration of Archery, Critical Shot is nothing but a regular-shot with a baked in 100% crit - so it does double damage of a regular shot.

Also, I don't think the damage-numbers are the problem, the real problem is delivering them. With Evade, Block and Bubbles, you lose out on a lot of damage.
Sat 1 Jun 2019 2:23 PM by teiloh
Didn't crit shot crit on live?
Sat 1 Jun 2019 2:28 PM by gotwqqd
teiloh wrote:
Sat 1 Jun 2019 2:23 PM
Didn't crit shot crit on live?
I know damage was far superior on my scout on live.
Sat 1 Jun 2019 2:30 PM by jelzinga_EU
teiloh wrote:
Sat 1 Jun 2019 2:23 PM
Didn't crit shot crit on live?

In old Archery, no.
Sat 1 Jun 2019 2:56 PM by Siouxsie
Doesn't matter if you use crit shot. I've tried shooting Infs and NS out of stealth with crit shot.. they usually end up evading crit shot and stay stealthed.
Archer crit shot should never be evaded/parried/block.. that's complete BS mechanics right there.

Might as well run up to the target with no weapons or armor on.
Crit shots should be hitting for 800-1000 not 500-600.
Sat 1 Jun 2019 3:16 PM by gotwqqd
Siouxsie wrote:
Sat 1 Jun 2019 2:56 PM
Doesn't matter if you use crit shot. I've tried shooting Infs and NS out of stealth with crit shot.. they usually end up evading crit shot and stay stealthed.
Archer crit shot should never be evaded/parried/block.. that's complete BS mechanics right there.

Might as well run up to the target with no weapons or armor on.
Crit shots should be hitting for 800-1000 not 500-600.
Particularly if archer is stealthed
Also would be good idea if assassin evade was lower when stealthed
Sat 1 Jun 2019 4:03 PM by Anelyn77
Grab volley and shoot peeps with it, they can't evade 25 arrows in 5s.

/Love, Anelyn
Sat 1 Jun 2019 4:13 PM by AngelRose
Crit shot popping you out of stealth is fucking lame. That needs to be either decreased or totally taken out of the game
Sat 1 Jun 2019 4:25 PM by Siouxsie
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 1 Jun 2019 4:13 PM
Crit shot popping you out of stealth is fucking lame. That needs to be either decreased or totally taken out of the game

I think if you fire a crit shot, you should only unstealth if the arrow hits and does damage. If you miss, or it gets evaded, blocked, parried.. you should stay stealthed.
Sat 1 Jun 2019 5:20 PM by Anelyn77
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 1 Jun 2019 4:13 PM
Crit shot popping you out of stealth is fucking lame. That needs to be either decreased or totally taken out of the game

If it hits you, and you get crit shot from stealth, working as intended, pan camera more, it takes min. 3s (normally more like 3.5-4s) to load and fire a crit shot, you see archers from same range they see you, so unless you are semi-afk stationary it's hard to get critshot from stealth while being stealthed yourself. If you evade it, or misses, then it should not pop you out of stealth. Archery doesn't need more nerfs, it's already on the lowest end of damage dealing table, hence why most archers don't even consider going higher than 35 in bow, because the gains are minuscule, unlike live.
Sat 1 Jun 2019 5:22 PM by AngelRose
Anelyn77 wrote:
Sat 1 Jun 2019 5:20 PM
AngelRose wrote:
Sat 1 Jun 2019 4:13 PM
Crit shot popping you out of stealth is fucking lame. That needs to be either decreased or totally taken out of the game

If it hits you, and you get crit shot from stealth, working as intended, pan camera more, it takes min. 3s (normally more like 3.5-4s) to load and fire a crit shot, you see archers from same range they see you, so unless you are semi-afk stationary it's hard to get critshot from stealth while being stealthed yourself. If you evade it, or misses, then it should not pop you out of stealth. Archery doesn't need more nerfs, it's already on the lowest end of damage dealing table, hence why most archers don't even consider going higher than 35 in bow, because the gains are minuscule, unlike live.

As an archer, I am saying it shouldnt pop you out of stealth..esp when all you are doing is loading it up.
Sat 1 Jun 2019 5:25 PM by Anelyn77
@AngelRose: my appologies, I misunderstood you there, thought you said it's wrong when you are shot with CS to be popped out of stealth

It's random in my experience, the higher your stealth value, the less chance to pop out when loading an arrow (irrelevant of what you want to shoot, be it volley, long shot, normal arrow, rapid fire or CritShot). Am now 40+13 stealth (love 80% run speed in stealth), and maybe once or twice in a play session it de-stealths me.

Cheers and happy snipping! \o/
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:03 PM by Bumbles
Going 50 Stealth is the only time that I never popped out of stealth with crit shot before the target was hit.

Oh and a fun side note; last night I did 1,539 damage to a hunter pet on my Scout before it died. Ended up being 7 rounds of melee with crit included. I think the Devs should give them another boost...
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:10 PM by Anelyn77
Bumbles, myself being 40 BC I have yellow str/con buff for pet (think is 78 str/con effectiveness?), so maybe that's why. They are not like grey druid pets to just 2-3 shot them, if they were that would make them non-usable. Scouts don't have great melee dmg either, so it's no wonder it took you so long. If you as 1h with low melee spec (suppose you're max 39 slash or thrust) would 3 shot the pet, then 2h would just 1 shot it.
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:19 PM by Sindralor
I know you all desperately need another buff but please wait in line, ranger is next
No shoving
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:25 PM by jelzinga_EU
Bumbles wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:03 PM
Going 50 Stealth is the only time that I never popped out of stealth with crit shot before the target was hit.

Oh and a fun side note; last night I did 1,539 damage to a hunter pet on my Scout before it died. Ended up being 7 rounds of melee with crit included. I think the Devs should give them another boost...

What amount of melee combat-rounds from a scout (1H; possibly low melee spec) do you think is OK to kill a pet ?
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:28 PM by chois
too long, slam the pet and fight the hunt, and go melee spec bow is dead since long time for scout
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:51 PM by gotwqqd
Anelyn77 wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:10 PM
Bumbles, myself being 40 BC I have yellow str/con buff for pet (think is 78 str/con effectiveness?), so maybe that's why. They are not like grey druid pets to just 2-3 shot them, if they were that would make them non-usable. Scouts don't have great melee dmg either, so it's no wonder it took you so long. If you as 1h with low melee spec (suppose you're max 39 slash or thrust) would 3 shot the pet, then 2h would just 1 shot it.
I think it’s more than adequate if they take up 3 or so attacks. No reason a pet should act as another character
Sun 2 Jun 2019 4:22 PM by Anelyn77
gotwqqd wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:51 PM
Anelyn77 wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:10 PM
Bumbles, myself being 40 BC I have yellow str/con buff for pet (think is 78 str/con effectiveness?), so maybe that's why. They are not like grey druid pets to just 2-3 shot them, if they were that would make them non-usable. Scouts don't have great melee dmg either, so it's no wonder it took you so long. If you as 1h with low melee spec (suppose you're max 39 slash or thrust) would 3 shot the pet, then 2h would just 1 shot it.
I think it’s more than adequate if they take up 3 or so attacks. No reason a pet should act as another character

This is a pet we have to spend points to get, is not a baseline pet. If it would die in 3 melee hits from a low WS / dmg 1h enemy, it would be completely useless. It already can be snared / mezzed / stunned / nuked. It's not like Hunters are top of the chain food OP. Did you try to melee a SM or Cabalist or Enchanter pet? Not even going to mention charmed pets. If you would kill with 3 melee hits with 1h low WS / dmg a summoning class pet (like hunter, sm, enchanter, bd, cabalist) do you think that would be ok? Sure I'll take it if you increase my bow dmg by at least 50% to make up for it ty. Thx but no thanks.....
Sun 2 Jun 2019 4:35 PM by Bumbles
jelzinga_EU wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:25 PM
Bumbles wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:03 PM
Going 50 Stealth is the only time that I never popped out of stealth with crit shot before the target was hit.

Oh and a fun side note; last night I did 1,539 damage to a hunter pet on my Scout before it died. Ended up being 7 rounds of melee with crit included. I think the Devs should give them another boost...

What amount of melee combat-rounds from a scout (1H; possibly low melee spec) do you think is OK to kill a pet ?

I’m 44 thrust by the way.. and for an instant pet on a really short recall timer the pet should not take that much damage. You either kill two “players” or you just get beat on by the pet while taking spear damage of 220+ a round when rng isn’t in your favor. The sudden influx of beastcraft hunters isn’t some enigma...
Sun 2 Jun 2019 5:47 PM by Galandor
chois wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 3:28 PM
too long, slam the pet and fight the hunt, and go melee spec bow is dead since long time for scout

You can always tell when someone has never played a scout lol,

go melee spec, good joke man, good joke.

Scouts at 50 weapon MIGHT do 80 damage a swing, MIGHT. They have a shield that is bypassed by EVERY stealther in the game and is effectively useless which is supposed to be their makeup for having shitty bow damage. Meanwhile Hunters & Rangers both get buff lines, and something to make up for their crap bow, either a pet, or dual wield and better damage, both of which are also in the advantage against scouts as they both cut their shield defense in half. Archers don't need buffs, SCOUTS need buffs.
Sun 2 Jun 2019 6:05 PM by chois
i m 50 slash 42 shield 27 bow 31 stalth, and i dont hit by 80 damage....
stop think the damage with one handed are gimp, it s the same damage MH than the others sneak
Sun 2 Jun 2019 6:08 PM by chois
but i agree with you scouts need buff
Sun 2 Jun 2019 6:55 PM by Dindelion
chois wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 6:05 PM
i m 50 slash 42 shield 27 bow 31 stalth, and i dont hit by 80 damage....
stop think the damage with one handed are gimp, it s the same damage MH than the others sneak

But damage with 1H is gimped in DAoC, that's his point. It doesn't matter if the MH part deals the same amount than another stealther's MH, they have more damage with OH and they swing faster thanks to the haste effect of DW / CD, so that's actually quite a big dps boost. Spear + new pet is also pretty scary.

It's okay for scout being shit in melee, the thing is they are not that much better than rangers outside of the extra 100 range with bow.
Honestly I don't know how they can fix Scouts (and that's probably why they don't touch them, they don't know what to do with the class). Old archery has some wack behavior balance wise. A sneak having 37% evade chance against a crit shot is retarded for example, considering how they completely wreck archers here. There is no kiting tools here too, which should be the main gameplay of a Scout.

Scout should be way better with bows, give them slower bows, better sneaks detection (they are scouts afterall), they SHOULD be able to engage a fight with crit shot, because even if the enemy is at 60%, you're far from winning with that shitty melee.

There's literally no class that loses a 1v1 against a Scout, which is odd for a stealth class.
Sun 2 Jun 2019 7:03 PM by Turano
From all the archers Scouts definitely got hit the hardest by the charge nerf.
Hunters and Rangers are stronger after it and Hunters got their pet buffed to a pretty nice lvl.
All Scouts have is slam, which makes then mostly annoying in 1v1. They definitely have their strengths in stealther grp play with guarding and stunning enemies with slam or giving what support fire they can with their nerfed dex/qui
Sun 2 Jun 2019 10:38 PM by Noandra
Thread name is wrong now, should be "Scouts need love"

Suggestion: just play one vs ranger or hunter ;O or anything else with a pet or or or
Sun 2 Jun 2019 11:43 PM by Cadebrennus
Turano wrote:
Sun 2 Jun 2019 7:03 PM
From all the archers Scouts definitely got hit the hardest by the charge nerf.
Hunters and Rangers are stronger after it and Hunters got their pet buffed to a pretty nice lvl.
All Scouts have is slam, which makes then mostly annoying in 1v1. They definitely have their strengths in stealther grp play with guarding and stunning enemies with slam or giving what support fire they can with their nerfed dex/qui

The change hit Blades Rangers extremely hard, but gave a boost to Sniper Rangers and Sniper Hunters.
Sun 2 Jun 2019 11:58 PM by Anelyn77
Am all up for some minor-decent archery buffs for all 3 archers even at cost of already bad melee (like having a reason to go higher in bow than 35). As long as I keep a snare from melee and AS debuff am happy, even without a positional stun, after all I just want to fire my bow not melee someone to death. But make those arrows really hurt.
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to RvR or the latest topics