For the first time since Phoenix live launch, I have 0 urge to log in!
says it all!
says it all!
Caver89 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 8:06 PMjust leave the server, delete your chars, go on and play a other game but stop posting shitposts like this
Caver89 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 8:38 PM
Do you really try to defend a guy who uses a shitpost like this and talking about a bad community? im free to discuss his points, but oh wait he doesnt even have one
A playground for rootless subvertersGoforit wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 8:24 PMThen you have lots of time to think about what democracy is. Ty.
Caver89 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 8:06 PMso what now? who cares about it? you dont want to login anymore and still making a thread about the very same topic?
just leave the server, delete your chars, go on and play a other game but stop posting shitposts like this
cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 9:38 PM
You claim to want to "discuss," but all you've done is swear at people, and tell him to leave...
The point in the OP is obvious. It's the fundamental point of this giant change; marked by the day Phoenix shrugged off its mask of "Classic w/ QoL" to become a pure custom server.
cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 6:54 PMYou didn't buy into the "Classic w/ QoL" hype did you?
I think that was just a sales pitch...
Hard to build hype with, "SI templates, and whatever else sounds good from week to week."
Nunki wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 8:52 AMcuuchulain79 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 9:38 PMCaver89 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 8:38 PMDo you really try to defend a guy who uses a shitpost like this and talking about a bad community? im free to discuss his points, but oh wait he doesnt even have one
You claim to want to "discuss," but all you've done is swear at people, and tell him to leave...
The point in the OP is obvious. It's the fundamental point of this giant change; marked by the day Phoenix shrugged off its mask of "Classic w/ QoL" to become a pure custom server.
Uthgard insisted on their "Classic without QoL" setting. Community flamed, server died due to boredom.
Phoenix said the initial setup is "Classis w/ QoL", which is what they did. Just from the beginning they said they would try out new things and even think about changes like NF etc. The change of the live Patcher somehow forced them towards NF.
They try out and change things, even request opinions and votes in order to make democratic decisions. Part of the community flames anyway, but the pop is somehow stable and there is massive action and fun in NF.
What do we learn? No matter what you do and how much you try. Some people will flame and some people will leave.
NF with custom changes was the most logical next design step and the community voted for it.cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 6:54 PMYou didn't buy into the "Classic w/ QoL" hype did you?
I think that was just a sales pitch...
Hard to build hype with, "SI templates, and whatever else sounds good from week to week."
"sales pitch"? You know they don't sell a thing, right?
The funny part is, I really like the dev team. They are open minded, communicative, innovative and at least try to make smart decisions regarding the players choices. ALL of that in their free time, as a hobby, without payment.
There are YOU, implying that they lie in order to raise the sales (that don't even exist). Funny huh?
Nunki wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 8:52 AMcuuchulain79 wrote: ↑Tue 25 Jun 2019 6:54 PMYou didn't buy into the "Classic w/ QoL" hype did you?
I think that was just a sales pitch...
Hard to build hype with, "SI templates, and whatever else sounds good from week to week."
"sales pitch"? You know they don't sell a thing, right?
The funny part is, I really like the dev team. They are open minded, communicative, innovative and at least try to make smart decisions regarding the players choices. ALL of that in their free time, as a hobby, without payment.
There are YOU, implying that they lie in order to raise the sales (that don't even exist). Funny huh?
Nunki wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 8:52 AMWhat do we learn? No matter what you do and how much you try. Some people will flame and some people will leave.
Leandrys wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 4:30 PMYou're 100% wrong, Phoenix went for OF initially and that was a mistake as the quick loss of players shown, they've tried something with NF, they had, at this rate the server woulda've die before 2020, OF was just a big pile of crap.
Problem is we do not have enough players left for NF now, so either we switch back to OF and the server dies or they try to custom NF and communicate about it to see people come back.
Except the people who left will havre to deal with a lot of RR 8/9/10/11+ now, a lot of these people abused of broken mechanics to increase RR and the new people will never catch 'em up.
SO yeah, there's no solution for Phoenix i guess, they are trying to save their baby but it's probably too late, OF made it's gravedigger's job long ago.
Kaseylol wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 4:42 PMAdded to this the Phoenix staff don't seem to really read threads, take feedback, or interact with the community much is pretty concerning.
A great example would be the multi 20+ page discussion threads where lots of arguments and back and forth are made requesting the adjustment of something and Uthred will come in, lock the thread, then say "no plans to change this, use the search function".
Yes, we understand staff doesn't currently have plans to change it, that's the ENTIRE point of the suggestion thread. What the hell? At least give some sort of notion that the discussion was read, left you unconvinced, and then provide reasoning. As far as I can tell he just locks them and moves on.
PingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:30 PMKaseylol wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 4:42 PMAdded to this the Phoenix staff don't seem to really read threads, take feedback, or interact with the community much is pretty concerning.
A great example would be the multi 20+ page discussion threads where lots of arguments and back and forth are made requesting the adjustment of something and Uthred will come in, lock the thread, then say "no plans to change this, use the search function".
Yes, we understand staff doesn't currently have plans to change it, that's the ENTIRE point of the suggestion thread. What the hell? At least give some sort of notion that the discussion was read, left you unconvinced, and then provide reasoning. As far as I can tell he just locks them and moves on.
If the issue has been discussed to death already, that is how it is handled. We're going on like 1000 pages of realm switch timer threads at this point, but people keep making them, saying "idk why" when the previous threads covered the why quite extensively. Threads usually don't get locked until they derail into arguments and name calling.
Sayuri wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:33 PMtheir argument for dont make the change is just that : you bothered us to keep asking for it so we will not make it !
PingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:41 PMSayuri wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:33 PMtheir argument for dont make the change is just that : you bothered us to keep asking for it so we will not make it !
That is incorrect. Their reasons are related to realm pride and other things that I can't explain very well, but that they have said in some of these threads in the past. Then recently when the issue was bubbling to the top again, a player named Raunz and some other folks took actions to upset the team. This basically removed any goodwill the devs had about the issue and caused the consideration to be dropped at this time.
Go look Raunz's posts up, he's a bad idea factory with a crappy attitude. The devs are doing this as a hobby, they owe us nothing. The fact that they put up with so much crap from so many jerks around here shows their monumental patience.
PingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:41 PMSayuri wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:33 PMtheir argument for dont make the change is just that : you bothered us to keep asking for it so we will not make it !
That is incorrect. Their reasons are related to realm pride and other things that I can't explain very well, but that they have said in some of these threads in the past. Then recently when the issue was bubbling to the top again, a player named Raunz and some other folks took actions to upset the team. This basically removed any goodwill the devs had about the issue and caused the consideration to be dropped at this time.
Go look Raunz's posts up, he's a bad idea factory with a crappy attitude. The devs are doing this as a hobby, they owe us nothing. The fact that they put up with so much crap from so many jerks around here shows their monumental patience.
PingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 6:49 PM
Banned or Muted? Bans happen for breaking the rules, Mutes happen for ignoring the requests of moderators. I've yet to see one that wasn't justified.
Kaseylol wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 6:11 PMYes, it's their server and we are all super grateful.
We also want there to be players, though, which I assume is a shared goal.
There's 1000 threads on realm timer because 12 hours is absurdly long and most don't want it. Those that don't care much about it enough to vote shorter are obviously the type thay don't switch realms often anyway.
I'd love to hear from you or a staff member on why 12 hours is better than 8. I'd then love to hear why 8 hours is better than 6. Then why 6 is better than 4.
Eventually you'll get to the core of the problem, which is people switching negatively impacting rvr, but I can guarantee no argument to stop that requires a 12 hour timer.
Kaseylol wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 6:56 PMThe idea that you or anyone else can force 'realm pride' is hilarious to me.
People who have realm pride will have it. People who don't won't. Forcing people to log into a specific realm does not garner realm pride, just like if every new account was forced to a realm at random doesn't either.
PingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 6:57 PMKaseylol wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 6:11 PMYes, it's their server and we are all super grateful.
We also want there to be players, though, which I assume is a shared goal.
There's 1000 threads on realm timer because 12 hours is absurdly long and most don't want it. Those that don't care much about it enough to vote shorter are obviously the type thay don't switch realms often anyway.
I'd love to hear from you or a staff member on why 12 hours is better than 8. I'd then love to hear why 8 hours is better than 6. Then why 6 is better than 4.
Eventually you'll get to the core of the problem, which is people switching negatively impacting rvr, but I can guarantee no argument to stop that requires a 12 hour timer.
Try reading the previous threads about the issue, plenty of arguments for both sides have been made in them, over and over again. I personally don't care if it's 8 or 12. 8 would actually benefit me, but 12 doesn't bother me either. With that said, less than 8 starts to get into the territory of being easily abused by people.
People act like this is some major game-affecting issue, but it's more in line with QoL. If being able to play Midgard now and Albion 3 hours from now is the difference between somebody staying or leaving Phoenix, then I have to wonder exactly how they ended up in a situation like that. And how did it get to be so serious?
Sayuri wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 6:57 PMbanned they have banned me cause they was thinking i was selling gold LOL, that was the url of my ban page : https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9739 and they deleted it in a ninja way when they saw they do a misstake
PingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 7:03 PMSayuri wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 6:57 PMbanned they have banned me cause they was thinking i was selling gold LOL, that was the url of my ban page : https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9739 and they deleted it in a ninja way when they saw they do a misstake
Yes, I saw that ban post when it went up originally. Congrats on your exoneration. So they revoked the ban and everything is fine now? Were you expecting an apology post and free RP's or something? Nobody is perfect, it looks like they corrected their mistake once they realized it.
12 is not too short to prevent realm hopping after logging in to take a peek at the state of RvR and not too long to prevent you from selecting a different realm on the next morrowKaseylol wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 7:03 PMWhat specific case does a 12 hour timer prevent abuse more than 8? What specific case is prevented by an 8 hour timer but not 6?
Sayuri wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 7:10 PMPingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 7:03 PMYes, I saw that ban post when it went up originally. Congrats on your exoneration. So they revoked the ban and everything is fine now? Were you expecting an apology post and free RP's or something? Nobody is perfect, it looks like they corrected their mistake once they realized it.
they realized it cause i didnt stop speaking in discord, you know about their stupid rules 12 ? the one that say : you are banned so shut up and ask a friend to speak for you ? even if you are innocent like me ? if i have respecting the rules 12 you can be sure i was still banned, just a little sry we did a misstake dont hurt
PingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 7:18 PM
Please review the quoted section, that's not what I said. I said that as you drop below 8 hours you start to get into the territory of being easily abused.
So let's get into it then. Abuse means using something for a bad purpose, and in this case it would mean using the short duration to their advantage in some way that the devs didn't intend. In the case of DAoC, abusing the timer is going into one realm and then based on something you didn't know before you logged in, you find it beneficial to switch to another realm. Without a timer, anybody could switch realms immediately. The devs do not want this to occur, whether you like it or not.
With a timer at 12 or 8 hours, it still covers natural time periods. Things like going to work, sleeping, and going about your day. Basically it limits you to one realm per day. At 8 hours it is on the edge of those natural time periods, because you could effectively play two realms in the same day. Still, 8 hours is a long time and nearly provides the same daily limit as 12 hours does. As you drop below 8 hours, you start to increase the number of switches you could do in a day. At 6 hours, you could play 2 hours, switch, play two more hours, sleep, switch and repeat. Still not that bad, but easily into the multiple realms per day situation.
When you get down around 4 hours or less, it almost has no meaning at all. Switching becomes trivial and common. The entire point of it being long is so that it isn't short. Yeah I know that sounds stupid, but it's both a physical and psychological barrier. Uthgard had (has?) a one week timer, and I can even see reasons where that could make sense, although I much prefer the 12 hours here.
In the end, it doesn't matter so much what the exact reasons are. This is something they feel strongly about, and while they read posts and take suggestions, they don't just do everything that has popular support. If this was put up for a vote I'm sure the shorter timer would win, but I'm not sure it would really be a benefit for the server. They have to decide when and if it makes sense to take the public's opinion on something. And on this issue they have decided to retain their team's preference. If it ever seems like it's detrimental to the server population I'm sure they'll give it the proper consideration.
Kaseylol wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 7:24 PMSo no specific cases, just repeating "short realm timer bad" without any justification of a specific amount of hours.
No one is arguing 0 realm timer is good, there are multiple cases of abuse one could present. For example, seeing a realm is on a relic raid, owns df, has a feather bonus, owns ck in thid, etc.
My point is even a 4 hour timer completely removes all of those. This idea that someone would log in, see one of these cases, then log out and wait 4 hours to log back in and abuse any of it is a pretty far stretch anyway. 4 hours is more than enough time to prevent abuse and no one has yet to provide a specific example of preventable abuse using a 12 hour timer also not being prevented with a 4 or 6 hour timer.
PingGuy wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 7:39 PMKaseylol wrote: ↑Thu 27 Jun 2019 7:24 PMSo no specific cases, just repeating "short realm timer bad" without any justification of a specific amount of hours.
No one is arguing 0 realm timer is good, there are multiple cases of abuse one could present. For example, seeing a realm is on a relic raid, owns df, has a feather bonus, owns ck in thid, etc.
My point is even a 4 hour timer completely removes all of those. This idea that someone would log in, see one of these cases, then log out and wait 4 hours to log back in and abuse any of it is a pretty far stretch anyway. 4 hours is more than enough time to prevent abuse and no one has yet to provide a specific example of preventable abuse using a 12 hour timer also not being prevented with a 4 or 6 hour timer.
I gave a specific case, the number of times one could switch realms in a day. 4 hours allows you to switch numerous times in a single day, 12 hours does not. Now you may say that doesn't matter, but it seems to be important to the devs that people can't just switch realms often.
I think you are looking for a specific case that you can easily refute, like something with relics or keeps or whatever, where the difference between 0 and 4 is a lot but the difference between 4 and 12 is not. While those kinds of things are probably part of the equation, simple abuse problems are probably not the only factor here. As you said, they can't force realm pride, but they can force you to live with a realm choice for 12 hours, so the effect is the same.
These arguments have all been made before. This is probably one of the most discussed topics since the server released, maybe even before that. IDK, I wasn't here for beta. At this point I think they should just sticky one of the locked discussion threads so people will stop making new threads on it. If they ever reach a point where they want to reconsider it I'm sure they will say something.
PingGuy wrote: ↑Fri 28 Jun 2019 3:21 PM
This is the closest you are going to get to an explanation from an actual dev: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=69319#p69319
But even then, if you don't agree with those reasons you will surely just say they aren't reasons, like you did with me.
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