Staff is turning toxic towards the community. Something needs to change.

I have been here day 1 of alpha and have put a lot of time and effort into the server, helping with changes and testing a lot. Lately I have seen the attitude of the staff change a lot. I would like to remind people this was the motto and philosophy the staff once held.

"We want you to be involved! Please let us know about your ideas and suggestions."
"We want to emphasise, that you are the most important part of this project and we promise to keep the information coming, to answer all questions to the best of our knowledge and work with you as close as possible. "

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64

Lately there has been a controversial change that some players are asking and talking a lot about( I dont want to bring that up here) but the main problem I have is not the decision about this change but the attitude the staff have towards it now. The problem the staff have is now since people are asking more about the change they hold grudges and get emotional/annoyed and they don't want to do it because of that instead of holding their ground and saying it's because of these reasons xyz.

Here are some quotes by the staff members.

Benuego - We're asking you to stop, carrying on will harm your chances further. Thanks

Schaf - Further, I hope you realize that your behavior regarding this topic now completely poisoned any kind of discussion regarding the realm timer and you also managed to remove some of the support a realm timer reduction had in the team. I intentionally said in the other thread that a removal would not happen and not that any kind of change would be impossible, now however:
Not only are there currently no plans to change the realm timer, there simply will be no change whatsoever to the realm timer.

If the reason to not make a change is because the staff have reasons xyz to not to do it, not in their vision or because they think it will negatively effect the server. No problem, I think many people are ok with that decisions. The problem I have now are that decisions are being made because certain people or too many people are asking for changes which causes the staff to no longer support it as much, or saying asking will harm chances. I believe the staff with this attitude going forward will only do worse for the server, since changes are being done out of emotion and spite versus doing changes with reasons.

Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:15 PM by florin

Just stop your crew is becoming annoying.

Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:26 PM by Norad

There have been many changes on this server since alpha, some many people disagreed with and others people agreed with. The one consistent thing from then till now is that there was always a good communication path and respect between the community and the staff. I hated the changes to nnf ras, and I complained a lot about them, I was never once told that what I was saying and giving my opinion would "poison the discussions" or cause "staff support to be reduced". That's the main problem I see and I am sure many others do also. You can ignore the people who are being extreme about something, but having it effect staff opinion about the change and having it influence is not a good direction to go for changes.

Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:30 PM by florin

It was clear that what poisoned the discussion was the stunt Raunz et al cooked up to protest. It was a poorly thought out plan and your bluff was called.

Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:37 PM by Norad

florin wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:30 PM
It was clear that what poisoned the discussion was the stunt Raunz et al cooked up to protest. It was a poorly thought out plan and your bluff was called.

Sorry but what some extreme people do and try to do shouldn't effect their opinion and it shouldnt poison it for other more moderate people who are wanting a change where they are sensible and mature towards the staff.

Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:41 PM by FUINY7

Honestly it's too late to bother... this server went full Darwin award, got GM'ed strong because they are little sissy with a narcissistic personality disorder so obviously abused the power they had.

Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:51 PM by access

Norad wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:37 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:30 PM
It was clear that what poisoned the discussion was the stunt Raunz et al cooked up to protest. It was a poorly thought out plan and your bluff was called.

Sorry but what some extreme people do and try to do shouldn't effect their opinion and it shouldnt poison it for other more moderate people who are wanting a change where they are sensible and mature towards the staff.

This. There are just as many extremists willing to result to insulting on both side.

That doesn't mean it should poison the discussion or make people react out of spite.

Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:57 PM by Jafeeio

I would have thrown the suggestion-towel long ago with every single decision instantly being undermined and drowned out by VERY vocal minority.
Two players account for over 100 threads on this forum (I'll let you guess who) and it's the same on Discord.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:19 AM by Salidry

Hello all,

Of course you can argue that some people like Raunz are a bit aggressive in their communication and it harms their arguments.
However when he makes suggestions he thinks not only in his own interest but also in the interest of the game he seems to truly love and in the interest of the server he likes, liked or would love to like. Just look at the energy he puts in it.
Raunz ( i dont know him personally at all ) seems to be a true lover and protector of DAoC. And i think his idea of DAoC is really not far away from yours. Not the one where people join the Herorius zerg and facerolling any enemy they Encounter like zombies.
Obviously he is sad that the population is decreasing and that he and his enemies cannot form groups so easely with his friends etc.

On the other hand the GM´s are the GM´s and it is understandable that they are a bit annoyed that someone repeatedly argues on this or that.
But GM´s, if you do not want that one person or a couple of persons open their mouth too much on some topics, i think the best idea would be to give the floor to the mass by creating Polls for the topics that seem to devide or are in debate.

Gm´s of course it is your server, but it is also one of the last servers of DAoC which gives you the responsability to also listen to the population.

I hope that discussions can be continued and of course I also hope that minds can be changed. For the sake of the same game we all like.

Thanks,
Salidry

Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:39 AM by Raunz

Everything i have said since beta i was correct about and i voice my opinion to make DAOC/server better, the lack of willingness to listen by the staff and refusal to even consider things out of spite is very sad indeed.

This is deja vu, already went thru this on Uthgard(flop server), similar issues with the same result but i really believed this staff would be much more open to things and not go full censor mode.

This takes me to the recent issues we had, the realm timer yeah it should never of been a thing but lets look at the bigger issue now, just go to the bans section on this forum and look at how many people have they banned for stupid rules that never should of been a thing.

The number of people playing this game gets lower and lower every year and we can't have large number of people getting banned because GM's had a brilliant idea to have X rule that makes no sense. Also the way you enforce the rules with instant ban hammers coming down is just disgusting imo.

Generally the feeling is the 8vs8 community is not welcome on this server and the vision of the server is much different then the freeshard community are use to with having welfare #tasklife rps and more focus on instant action and zerging.

Make a statement if that is correct and we can just move on but if you are willing to listen to the player base that are not happy right now, maybe move to more democratic way of running this server.

Raunz sends his regards.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 4:04 AM by Ardri

Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:39 AM
Everything i have said since beta i was correct about

You can hardly blame Shaf's response when Raunz acts like this all the time. It was an isolated 1 time response from Schaf and probably not the prevalent feeling by the crew. I bet he regrets it honestly. If i was a moderator of the forum, I probably wouldn't let someone make endless threads and toxic posts on the same topic meanwhile
spamming the thread link in every discord just to keep it at the top. It's an important Phoenix topic, but com'on...

That being said, yes something needs to be done to sustain the population. Just look at the stats after the DDoS attack. It's is going downhill very fast and NA action has taken a very noticeable hit. At the very least make a poll which is linked to your forum account or some sort of in game poll. Silencing certain topics does nothing.

Thanks for the server Schaf/Uthred. I'll still be playing for awhile.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 5:14 AM by Kampfar

Staff should not argue with toxic ppl. Just mute or ban em. This whole forum is a very toxic place full of ppl knowing Best and if staff is not on their side Server will die in few days...

Sat 8 Jun 2019 5:24 AM by Muschen

I have been an idle bystander since the Origin-Phoenix breakup and i have the most respect for Norad, he seems very helpful and knowledgeable even with the basic newbie questions. I have seen the same since the start, it feels like the discussions have become harsher. Some of the staffs have changed very much, is it because of the players or the staff? I dont really know. The staff should be professional but we are all humans after all, and this is not their job. I believe that this is something that should be looked at before its too late.

Im also saying this inspite of the changes being very solo friendly and im always solo.

/
Husmor - RM keephugger
Musch - Thid Hunter

Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:24 AM by Druth

Well yeah, I agree some of that has poor wording.

I think the people making the staff that upset should just have been muted ages ago.

To somehow mix people and subjects is a bad approach, only arguments should make the staff make other decisions, not whatever some mad persons write.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:37 AM by Joffel

Stop pretending you are speaking for "the community". Most of us don´t support your cause and trying to pressure the staff by polluting the forums with your nonsense won´t get you anywhere.

The way you are trying to change things, which benefit your little circle-jerk-crew is ridiculous.

I hope the staff will NEVER change the timer, because we ve seen in the past what will happen if ppl can jump instantly between realms.

You might think that you´re some kind of elite amongst us that has special rights. That´s an illusion and beeing very vocal doesn´t give you the right to represent players, who don´t have the time to write page after page in the forum.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:46 AM by Muschen

Joffel wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:37 AM
Stop pretending you are speaking for "the community". Most of us don´t support your cause and trying to pressure the staff by polluting the forums with your nonsense won´t get you anywhere.

The way you are trying to change things, which benefit your little circle-jerk-crew is ridiculous.

I hope the staff will NEVER change the timer, because we ve seen in the past what will happen if ppl can jump instantly between realms.

You might think that you´re some kind of elite amongst us that has special rights. That´s an illusion and beeing very vocal doesn´t give you the right to represent players, who don´t have the time to write page after page in the forum.

I think you missed his point and are speaking with your emotions towards Norad.
Try to read again without emotions.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 7:57 AM by

Uthred

Norad wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:09 PM
Here are some quotes by the staff members.

Benuego - We're asking you to stop, carrying on will harm your chances further. Thanks

Schaf - Further, I hope you realize that your behavior regarding this topic now completely poisoned any kind of discussion regarding the realm timer and you also managed to remove some of the support a realm timer reduction had in the team. I intentionally said in the other thread that a removal would not happen and not that any kind of change would be impossible, now however:
Not only are there currently no plans to change the realm timer, there simply will be no change whatsoever to the realm timer.

If the reason to not make a change is because the staff have reasons xyz to not to do it, not in their vision or because they think it will negatively effect the server. No problem, I think many people are ok with that decisions. The problem I have now are that decisions are being made because certain people or too many people are asking for changes which causes the staff to no longer support it as much, or saying asking will harm chances. I believe the staff with this attitude going forward will only do worse for the server, since changes are being done out of emotion and spite versus doing changes with reasons.

Nice quotes. Yes, you are here from day 1 and yes, you did help a lot. But the quotes you just brought up just show the things how you want to see them and not how the things really are.

The first quote was from discord. Always the same people bring up the realm timer topic, even after we asked a million times to stop discussing it for different reasons (discord is for helping people and not for discussing the same things over and over again/ stop to discuss because we gave you an answer/statement). But no, people dont want to stop, so people get muted, deleted, banned. Then you start crying about censorship, democracy, the staff doesnt listen, etc.
From yesterday (gestern means yesterday, heute = today)

[attachment=1]1.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=0]2.JPG[/attachment]

If you take a look at the time stamps, you see that about 2 hours after i asked people to stop bringing up that topic again and again and again and again and again, the GM had to ask the players again to stop it and now you are seriously complaing about the staffs attitude towards the players? Like for real? This is just one example of the same thing that is happening every day over and over again. And now this post. Great. Really.

Ok, next quote. Schafs answer to your protest-thing. We told you multiple times before, why we dont want to change the realm timer or why we have the realm timer. But you dont accept that reason, think it is not valid, etc. Just one question, why should we even think of changing something after we got insulted 24/7 since weeks just because we have a different opinion than you? We dont get a thing for offering you this freeshard and the only thing we get back are things like this:

Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:39 AM
Everything i have said since beta i was correct about and i voice my opinion to make DAOC/server better, the lack of willingness to listen by the staff and refusal to even consider things out of spite is very sad indeed.

Generally the feeling is the 8vs8 community is not welcome on this server and the vision of the server is much different then the freeshard community are use to with having welfare #tasklife rps and more focus on instant action and zerging.

Make a statement if that is correct and we can just move on but if you are willing to listen to the player base that are not happy right now, maybe move to more democratic way of running this server.

Raunz sends his regards.

Sms wrote: ↑
Sun 26 May 2019 6:06 AM
remove the timer, fucking dumb you guys cant see realm pride isn't a thing in 2019 yikes. :>

removeeeeeee it.

Raunz wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:50 AM
I gotta banned today from Phoenix discord for mentioning this thread, the abuse of power and cencorship is real if you have different view and voice your opinion. They do not listen to gamers who know every little aspect of the game and want help guide the ones in power to the right direction.

Raunz wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 9:12 AM
Phoenix got some great devs but that does not mean their staff are making right decisions or have understanding of the game like many of the players in 8vs8 community do.
Problem now is that they banned massive amount of people for breaking a rule that should never of been a rule.

By removing the timer they would have to admit that they messed up and all the bans they did are ridiculous, who knows maybe the ego wont get in the way and we get some humble pie.

Raunz wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 4:58 AM
Why are you trying to compromise people, the timer is ridiculous and needs to be removed, tbh we need some sort of players council with veto powers so this lunacy wont happen again.

Raunz wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Jun 2019 6:27 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 11:32 PM
The timer will not be removed.

Even if you ignore the minor issues like people logging other realms to flame after getting killed, you still have the primary reason why the timer exists: Avoid fluctuations caused by joining certain bg leaders / the currently dominating realm. Best example from live would be people logging out of other realms and joining the hib Herorius zerg when it runs.

My conspiracy theory seems to be correct that the German GM's on this server are some of the people stuck on Herorius running in circles around EV.

If you actually think those are valid reasons i don't see any hope for the server....

"Best example from live would be people logging out of other realms and joining the hib Herorius zerg when it runs." Go ahead and do that here, we would just team up with other 8 mans and farm them off the server.

We need player council that review everything you guys do with veto powers in my opinion, you may own this server but this is our game, not yours!

RIP DAOC 06.06.2019

Raunz wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 5:12 AM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 10:06 PM
To answer the OP:

1. No.
2. No. This is not the PVP event (not long ago we had a PvP event). This weekend we want to make a different event, which is the Arena event (tournament style). Very soon there will be another event. Totally different than the PvP & the Arena event.
3. No. There is the "/arena current" command which shows Infos about the current tournaments. Players will easily see how many enemies are there to fight for every possible grpsize (1, 2, 3, 5 or 8).

If you want to keep this thread open, pls stop the insults. Thx.

Big yikes, it's just another Uthgard situation again where GM's think they know better and refuse to listen because of ego.

Raunz wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 6:00 AM
“They came first for Raunz, ...
“Censorship reflects staffs lack of confidence in itself. ...
“Wherever they burn posts they will also, in the end, burn DAOC.” ...
“What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”
“Censorship is to art as lynching is to justice.”
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of people that are incapable of exercising real discretion."

These are just some examples, countless all the nice words we get to hear every day on discord. And now you are opening a thread, calling the staff toxic because we are just sick of all the insults, lies and insinuations?

Norad wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Jun 2019 11:26 PM
There have been many changes on this server since alpha, some many people disagreed with and others people agreed with. The one consistent thing from then till now is that there was always a good communication path and respect between the community and the staff. I hated the changes to nnf ras, and I complained a lot about them, I was never once told that what I was saying and giving my opinion would "poison the discussions" or cause "staff support to be reduced". That's the main problem I see and I am sure many others do also. You can ignore the people who are being extreme about something, but having it effect staff opinion about the change and having it influence is not a good direction to go for changes.

Yes, there has always been a good communication between the staff and the community, I totally agree. But tell me, how is any kind of communication possible if people act like shown in the quotes above and think they are the only ones that matters? And if they dont get what they want, they start spreading lies like we hate the 8v8 community. We always said and nothing has changed about this, we dont support any playstyle. Phoenix is a place where all playstyles are welcome, no matter if 8men, solo, duo, zerg, whatever.

A perfect example of what this toxic "discussion" prevented, was a thing, which many player in the "remove the realm timer" thread complained about, the missing possibility to pay the rent in realm A when being logged to realm B. We had several ideas and solutions discussed internaly, but this discussion got shut down by the constant toxity. Instead of being able to focus on a solution we had to defend ourselves vs the various attacks.

Maybe all of you that are speaking of censorship, freedom and democracy should hold for a moment and rethink what they said. You dont have to like our decisions and you dont have to like our vision of the server. We know for ourselves that we cant make everyone happy but believe it or not, we are trying to do so.

Muschen wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 5:24 AM
I have been an idle bystander since the Origin-Phoenix breakup and i have the most respect for Norad, he seems very helpful and knowledgeable even with the basic newbie questions. I have seen the same since the start, it feels like the discussions have become harsher. Some of the staffs have changed very much, is it because of the players or the staff? I dont really know. The staff should be professional but we are all humans after all, and this is not their job. I believe that this is something that should be looked at before its too late.

Im also saying this inspite of the changes being very solo friendly and im always solo.

/
Husmor - RM keephugger
Musch - Thid Hunter

Yes, you are completly right. We are only humans and speaking of myself i totally changed. When this project started and we had the first 30 people testing in Alpha it was way more personal and I had the time and also the will to be help everyone as good as i could. But now? I stopped counting how often i got called Nazi, just because im german. I stopped counting how many times someone said that he would hope my parents would die in a very brutal way just because he didnt like my decison/answer/ban. And no, im not the only one. Nearly every staff member has gotten those messages, some were even worse.

And nevertheless we try to be as neutral and try to threat everyone the same. But this discussion and this constant insulting has to stop. We try to do our best and yes, we do make mistakes too. None of us is claiming to be infallible. But if you dont stop behaving like this and if you dont start to accept, that there are more players than your community, you will only destroy the game we all are here for and we all like so much.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 8:16 AM by lurker

As far as the OPs point that the general population should not suffer due to the actions of a few vocal, persistent and somewhat overzealous players. Sure. I can agree.

But I can also see why the devs might snap sometimes with certain people. When you are in a position of authority and people persistently and belligerently continue to drone on about a certain topic after countless reasonable discussions / rejections then that gets really frustrating. So let’s all just have a bit of sympathy there.

The notion that Raunz seems to have is that there is some sort of DAOC panacea where if the right changes had been made then the server would have retained 3k population whilst being some sort 8v8 promised land where there were no zergs and no ‘welfare’ rps is just ridiculous.

I personally don’t agree with the devs hard line stance on cross realming and think there is a better more moderate way they could do it. I don’t agree with a number of things in the server as I think they are unsustainable. But fact seems to be that no matter how the server was implemented you would likely see a similar decline - the only question worth knowing the answer to is what is a sustainable level. We dont know this yet.

Wielding the inevitable population decline as some sort of weapon to reinforce your points and demand a particular change you have a beef with is just malicious behaviour.

The devs are of course making changes as best they can in an attempt to appeal to the broadest possible cross section of players. It’s quite possible that the devs changes have retained 50% MORE population than there would have been at this point had they not made any changes - There is literally no way to know. So Raunz claim that he has been right about everything since launch is either ridiculously self delusional or - I suspect - something worse.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 8:36 AM by kvothe

All I see is some discord banned people carrying their toxicity over to the forums.
Just quit and no one will miss you.

Everytime I was in contact with a GM they were very kind and helpful.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 8:57 AM by karate

Joffel wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:37 AM
I hope the staff will NEVER change the timer, because we ve seen in the past what will happen if ppl can jump instantly between realms.

You draft and play 30h sessions of fun with randoms and new people that you normally farm... Goodtimes.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:09 AM by Raunz

This is full spin mode now that Raunz is too extreme and toxic.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:19 AM by amoz

Joffel wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:37 AM
I hope the staff will NEVER change the timer, because we ve seen in the past what will happen if ppl can jump instantly between realms.

From https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.78

Dark Age of Camelot Version 1.78 Release Notes August 16, 2005
- Realm timer for clustered servers has changed from 8 hours to 1 hour.

What happened in 2005 that you really disliked?

Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:31 AM by kvothe

amoz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:19 AM
Joffel wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:37 AM
I hope the staff will NEVER change the timer, because we ve seen in the past what will happen if ppl can jump instantly between realms.

From https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.78

Dark Age of Camelot Version 1.78 Release Notes August 16, 2005
- Realm timer for clustered servers has changed from 8 hours to 1 hour.

What happened in 2005 that you really disliked?

Most likely he is referring to real daoc called Uthgard 1, not some pseudo daoc called live

Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:43 AM by

gruenesschaf

A reasonable suggestion regarding the realm timer would have looked for the reasons for its existence and once those were given search for a timer duration / solution that still prevents the scenarios given and / or alternatives but in this case the given reason was belittled and dismissed and the general toxic tone continued which is why the thread was closed.

In that thread I made our position clear, a removal would not happen as there actually is still a scenario it should prevent and with that instead of trying again, reasonably, a thread was made to escalate it even further by encouraging people to violate rule 2 to force the desired change, still entirely unwilling to compromise.

What did you think would happen when you're doing this? Now, even if we wanted to change the timer it would look like this kind of behavior works which would set a precedent and thereby encourage the same behavior for future topics.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:13 AM by Raunz

What other choice did i have but to start this movement when you guys just started to censor everyone who didn't agree with your agenda. Also i have no interest to have a discussion with someone on the forums who doesn't even understand basic mechanics of the game and yes i can be very blunt about it.

To be honest it all happened quite naturally, all people needed was someone brave enough to call you guys out, call me what you want but this feels character assassination and just feels like a excuse not to remove it now because of spite and "Raunz is toxic".

This whole thing is not about my behavior, if i didn't rally people up we wouldn't even have this discussion right now. This is about Phoenix staff being too close minded and not willing to listen to advice from people who have very deep understand of the game and i'm not talking about me.

Spin this however you like but i will say this, Schaf i think you been great balancing and fixing parts of the game and i respect you a lot but some of these rules you guys have put in and instant ban hammers in a dying game + unwillingness to listen advice since the server launch is quite disgusting.

Raunz sends his regards.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:13 AM by Kyllikki

Maybe all of you that are speaking of censorship, freedom and democracy

We just talk about a stupid (that's the word, sorry) game design decision.

You have no proofs we need this timer, most of players agree that it should be changed (See polls) and because of your ego, you won't change it, that's even more stupid and that's why people are crying, because you basically say to players: "80% want it to be reduced? well, we don't care, **** you, that's our server."

You just ban more and more players who just want to play with friends (shame on them!) and prevent others to play most of the time just for a problem that does not exist yet...

Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:24 AM by

gruenesschaf

Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:13 AM
What other choice did i have but to start this movement when you guys just started to censor everyone who didn't agree with your agenda. Also i have no interest to have a discussion with someone on the forums who doesn't even understand basic mechanics of the game and yes i can be very blunt about it.

You just completely dismissed that people switch to another realm once a zerg leader comes online, it could be seen day in day out on live, it's not some fantasy scenario but something that actually happened with the setting you want.

You also appear to completely ignore any and all playstyles that are not your own, just because most 8v8 groups would switch to the realm with the least amount of online 8v8 groups which would be a positive, that's simply not the case for most players, many player would switch to the dominating realm which would be detrimental.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:27 AM by Norad

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:43 AM
A reasonable suggestion regarding the realm timer would have looked for the reasons for its existence and once those were given search for a timer duration / solution that still prevents the scenarios given and / or alternatives but in this case the given reason was belittled and dismissed and the general toxic tone continued which is why the thread was closed.

In that thread I made our position clear, a removal would not happen as there actually is still a scenario it should prevent and with that instead of trying again, reasonably, a thread was made to escalate it even further by encouraging people to violate rule 2 to force the desired change, still entirely unwilling to compromise.

What did you think would happen when you're doing this? Now, even if we wanted to change the timer it would look like this kind of behavior works which would set a precedent and thereby encourage the same behavior for future topics.

The point of this thread wasn't to disagree with you closing the threads and or being upset with certain players that are spamming staff and being toxic towards them. The reason is that staff should just perma those people and focus on the part of the community that cares about them and are willing to communicate properly. For the majority of the population want to continue a good dialogue but before we could do that we see messages like i wrote previously that show staff attitude has gone more negative while focusing on people that shouldnt matter

Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:29 AM by Raunz

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:24 AM
Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:13 AM
What other choice did i have but to start this movement when you guys just started to censor everyone who didn't agree with your agenda. Also i have no interest to have a discussion with someone on the forums who doesn't even understand basic mechanics of the game and yes i can be very blunt about it.

You just completely dismissed that people switch to another realm once a zerg leader comes online, it could be seen day in day out on live, it's not some fantasy scenario but something that actually happened with the setting you want.

You also appear to completely ignore any and all playstyles that are not your own, just because most 8v8 groups would switch to the realm with the least amount of online 8v8 groups which would be a positive, that's simply not the case for most players, many player would switch to the dominating realm which would be detrimental.

I don't see that as a valid argument as a zerg is quite easy to deal with, also who cares just let them run in a circle with 10fg on stick if they like. Even if that would happen people would get bored and it would naturally balance it self out.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:31 AM by Norad

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:24 AM
Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:13 AM
What other choice did i have but to start this movement when you guys just started to censor everyone who didn't agree with your agenda. Also i have no interest to have a discussion with someone on the forums who doesn't even understand basic mechanics of the game and yes i can be very blunt about it.

You just completely dismissed that people switch to another realm once a zerg leader comes online, it could be seen day in day out on live, it's not some fantasy scenario but something that actually happened with the setting you want.

You also appear to completely ignore any and all playstyles that are not your own, just because most 8v8 groups would switch to the realm with the least amount of online 8v8 groups which would be a positive, that's simply not the case for most players, many player would switch to the dominating realm which would be detrimental.

If you want to use this thread to talk about the realm timer, my opinion as someone who isnt as extreme as others is to use what live will do in the future. They agree with you, and I agree with you also but see that it needs to be lowered also.

tldr: no timer for people doing pve, 4 hour timer for people that participate in rvr or earn rps. Even the first part could be taken out, but it seems beneficial for people if they say log onto their hibs and cant find a group for their char to farm/rvr/pve and they're still free to switch to another realm to do it. Of course there needs to be some timer so people just dont go with the bigger zerg, many people agree with this.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:54 AM by amoz

kvothe wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 10:31 AM
Most likely he is referring to real daoc called Uthgard 1, not some pseudo daoc called live

Uthgard 1 was poorly coded, unbalanced and frankly just a boring semi-part of otherwise a great game. If you enjoy Uthgard it is still there for you, but please don't compare it to live daoc in its prime.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:05 PM by Taniquetil

Imagine having devoted years of your life to bringing people a game for free, and doing nothing but try to bring the nostalgia back that people knew and loved, only to be ostracized and victimized for it. Why would you think that would ever make someone agree with you.

I will say that I feel as though certain community members have a very 1 sided view of this. And there is an existing poll that proves that this is about a 50/50 split in opinion already, and likely the same for GM's too, hence they told us that they were already having discussions about this.

https://www.strawpoll.me/16213006/r

Read the data smartly. 50% want 4hr timer. 50% want anywhere between 8hrs to, keeping it as is, to increasing it to 24hrs or longer. IT IS NOT AS CLEAR CUT AS YOU THINK.

Unfortunately the thing is as long as the likes of Raunz and others cannot even debate the possibility that a 12hr timer has some positive aspects, such as encouraging realm pride, it's very difficult to have a discussion/debate to encourage a change.

I just worry that reducing the realm timer people would be happier to log out and wait 4hrs therefore reducing rvr action, than staging any kind of fightback or sticking to realm pride. Which would counterintuively negatively impact the server.

Now, Norad has made 1-2 good points on differentiating RvR and PvE timers, or possibly creating bonuses associated with sticking to realms/realm pride or nerfs to rps if constantly kangarooing about. But in order to have that debate at all we need to stop attacking staff and instead have a debate, and no i dont think the staff would tell anyone to stop bringing valid points to the table if tabled in a positive manner rather than swinging things like 'abuse of power' I mean COME ON! This is THEIR server, a FREE server given you to out of the kindness of their hearts....FOR NOTHING.

Respect and gratitude goes a long way, and no, you cant hold these guys to the same account that you do to paid game developers/companies, they dont owe us anything, they're doing this because they bloody love it, for free and we're all lucky enough to be given this experience for free.

Aand for the record I'm undecided on the realm timer thing, I see arguments both ways, and perhaps the strongest of all is differentiating PvE and PvP timers. But freely kangarooing based on the Herorius (read Pilzpower/Ein) bg zergs is a real danger, and ones that the GM's have rightly mentioned.

Mezz....

Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:09 PM by Norad

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:05 PM
Imagine having devoted years of your life to bringing people a game for free, and doing nothing but try to bring the nostalgia back that people knew and loved, only to be ostracized and victimized for it. Why would you think that would ever make someone agree with you.

I will say that I feel as though certain community members have a very 1 sided view of this. And there is an existing poll that proves that this is about a 50/50 split in opinion already, and likely the same for GM's too, hence they told us that they were already having discussions about this.

https://www.strawpoll.me/16213006/r

Read the data smartly. 50% want 4hr timer. 50% want anywhere between 8hrs to, keeping it as is, to increasing it to 24hrs or longer. IT IS NOT AS CLEAR CUT AS YOU THINK.

Unfortunately the thing is as long as the likes of Raunz and others cannot even debate the possibility that a 12hr timer has some positive aspects, such as encouraging realm pride, it's very difficult to have a discussion/debate to encourage a change.

I just worry that reducing the realm timer people would be happier to log out and wait 4hrs therefore reducing rvr action, than staging any kind of fightback or sticking to realm pride. Which would counterintuively negatively impact the server.

Now, Norad has made 1-2 good points on differentiating RvR and PvE timers, or possibly creating bonuses associated with sticking to realms/realm pride or nerfs to rps if constantly kangarooing about. But in order to have that debate at all we need to stop attacking staff and instead have a debate, and no i dont think the staff would tell anyone to stop bringing valid points to the table if tabled in a positive manner rather than swinging things like 'abuse of power' I mean COME ON! This is THEIR server, a FREE server given you to out of the kindness of their hearts....FOR NOTHING.

Respect and gratitude goes a long way, and no, you cant hold these guys to the same account that you do to paid game developers/companies, they dont owe us anything, they're doing this because they bloody love it, for free and we're all lucky enough to be given this experience for free.

Aand for the record I'm undecided on the realm timer thing, I see arguments both ways, and perhaps the strongest of all is differentiating PvE and PvP timers. But freely kangarooing based on the Herorius (read Pilzpower/Ein) bg zergs is a real danger, and ones that the GM's have rightly mentioned.

Mezz....

I agree with most of what you said except the poll shows 59% want lower than current timer vs 40%. Also the change I listed avoided the jumping around based on bg zergs.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:19 PM by Salidry

First, the poll has been made in August 2018, so very much outdated and not adapted to the current situation of the server.
Second, the poll isn´t very precise enough. There are no choices below 4 hours.

I would suggest a new poll

Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:40 PM by Stoertebecker

Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:29 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:24 AM
Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:13 AM
What other choice did i have but to start this movement when you guys just started to censor everyone who didn't agree with your agenda. Also i have no interest to have a discussion with someone on the forums who doesn't even understand basic mechanics of the game and yes i can be very blunt about it.

You just completely dismissed that people switch to another realm once a zerg leader comes online, it could be seen day in day out on live, it's not some fantasy scenario but something that actually happened with the setting you want.

You also appear to completely ignore any and all playstyles that are not your own, just because most 8v8 groups would switch to the realm with the least amount of online 8v8 groups which would be a positive, that's simply not the case for most players, many player would switch to the dominating realm which would be detrimental.

I don't see that as a valid argument as a zerg is quite easy to deal with, also who cares just let them run in a circle with 10fg on stick if they like. Even if that would happen people would get bored and it would naturally balance it self out.

You don`t see any valid arguments cause your position is carved in stone, maybe you should just stfu and take a break.

The one eyed is king among the blind.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:43 PM by Raunz

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:40 PM
Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:29 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:24 AM
You just completely dismissed that people switch to another realm once a zerg leader comes online, it could be seen day in day out on live, it's not some fantasy scenario but something that actually happened with the setting you want.

You also appear to completely ignore any and all playstyles that are not your own, just because most 8v8 groups would switch to the realm with the least amount of online 8v8 groups which would be a positive, that's simply not the case for most players, many player would switch to the dominating realm which would be detrimental.

I don't see that as a valid argument as a zerg is quite easy to deal with, also who cares just let them run in a circle with 10fg on stick if they like. Even if that would happen people would get bored and it would naturally balance it self out.

You don`t see any valid arguments cause your position is carved in stone, maybe you should just stfu and take a break.

The one eyed is king among the blind.

Thank you for your insight

Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:54 PM by Raunz

How about this, you remove the timer for couple of weeks and then review the change.

We could possibly bring back the drafts then if no timer and find many new people to play with that we haven't played with before and teach them the art of 8vs8.

Also at this point i'm more worried about the 670+ topics on ban sections on this forums then realm timer tho, look how many people got banned and accounts deleted because they have tried to bypass the realm timer...i bet majority of them just gave up and quit after the ban hammer.

When the rule is stopping people from playing the game then it's a bad rule, end of story.

Best regards.
Raunz the Martyr, The Rebel, The peoples champion.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 1:06 PM by joy

I do like the way live have thought of this. Rps earned, from kills or task enforces a short 2-4 hours realm lock.
It could even go further.
We currently have the 'can not leave portal keep if relic is in transit'. This could be used to have a 'zero' realm timer.
It would still be a realm timer, but just not for pve zones. If you were on a timer, you would just be forced back into the portal keep when trying to leave.

Example:
I am on mid, some friends make a rvr group and we head out. All is well until people have to log, and group naturally breaks up.
As it is now my options are to either pve on another useless toon, or stop playing for the day, and join them again the next day.
If this 'zero' thing, as I mentioned, was in play, I could visit another realm, make new friends, and try get stuff rvr ready there as well.
If I wanted to enter the rvr zones, I would have to log back to mid, or wait out the 2-4 hours realm timer.

Uthred wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 7:57 AM
The first quote was from discord. Always the same people bring up the realm timer topic, even after we asked a million times to stop discussing it for different reasons (discord is for helping people and not for discussing the same things over and over again/ stop to discuss because we gave you an answer/statement).

As someone who haven't been able to follow this 24/7, would you mind linking to these statements?
All I could find when trying to looking, is the same thing 'we've already answered this'.

There is no easy !realmtimer, on discord to point me to the current staff view, and statements, and since I can't find them myself, would anyone be able to link to all reasons so far given for the realm timer?

Sat 8 Jun 2019 1:26 PM by Bicstor

Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 12:54 PM
How about this, you remove the timer for couple of weeks and then review the change.

What bit of:
"Not only are there currently no plans to change the realm timer, there simply will be no change whatsoever to the realm timer."
as clearly stated by a dev recently in another thread, don't you understand?
Yet you still persist in trying to get a realm timer change put into game, even as far as hijacking a thread about toxicity todo so.

Devs/Gms need to put this to bed. Start muting/banning people from forums/discord who persist in flogging a dead horse. If they dont like the rules, no one is forcing them to play on this server.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 1:40 PM by Runental

I see no problem at all.. server is still fun,- instead of writing walls of texts here, i enjoy the server most of the time. Thx to the staff to make this possible.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 1:56 PM by FUINY7

Even with a biased old straw pool stats show that peoples want to lower the timer...
make a real straw pool *smh*

Sat 8 Jun 2019 2:03 PM by florin

I’m seriously questioning the thought process that went behind this protest and the results they expect. Let’s put this into context. We just came off of an extended denial of service attack that impacted the game to the point some people took a break, some I’m guessing permanently.

So here comes Phoenix self declared saviors and do a distributed denial of service on discord and forums with multiple incessant posts. Then they escalate to threatening an in game dos against players.

Natebugger got a swifter and more severe punishment than these entitled rabble rousers.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 2:07 PM by

Uthred

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 11:32 PM
The timer will not be removed.

Even if you ignore the minor issues like people logging other realms to flame after getting killed, you still have the primary reason why the timer exists: Avoid fluctuations caused by joining certain bg leaders / the currently dominating realm. Best example from live would be people logging out of other realms and joining the hib Herorius zerg when it runs.

Please stay on topic and stop turning this thread into a discussion about the realm timer.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 2:27 PM by Enyore

Never seen the staff as toxic and none of the quoted examples inhere tells me they are toxic, only human beings that is offering a free authentic daoc experience at no cost.... their house, their rules.
I have found the staff to, always, be very helpful and forthcoming and hoping for that to continue going forward.

Just had to say that, sorry for interrupting the conversation - please continue.

Oh wait, btw - this self proclaimed spokesperson do not speak for any of us. The dude seems so bloated by his own ego that he must count as the DAoC version of L Ron Hubbard. Seems like him and his 8v8-Scientology gathering will say and do just about anything to get their way, don't let them.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 2:40 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:29 AM
I don't see that as a valid argument as a zerg is quite easy to deal with, also who cares just let them run in a circle with 10fg on stick if they like. Even if that would happen people would get bored and it would naturally balance it self out.

It doesn't matter what you think is valid or not, get that through your thick, ignorant, elitist head.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 2:48 PM by Boric

Again Raunz showing what he really wants and not understanding the general population.

Lets take NA for an example:

Typically the break down is as follows: 80m 50a 50h.
Of that, there is a 50man BG taking keeps, and 2-3 8mans
Alb and Hib are generally 4 8mans, sometimes 2 'lesser' 8mans in the world of this clique running together.
Casuals log on their alts to PvE, stealthers to solo or log.

In Raunz world, he is pretending that no timer will balance it out.
However, 20 of the BG are not logging over to defend against the larger Mid Zerg, what will happen is the casuals will log over to get keep RPs making it something like
100m 30a 30h.
However, the clique is happy because maybe 1 8man can swap realms to keep their emain circle jerk going.

As Raunz stated, the 100 man zerg will get bored and sort themselves out = quit.
So he has shown his true colors again, he wants a 100person playground for his clique to 'draft' between their friends.

Please just put them on mute on all forums / discord and let the people enjoy the game.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 3:53 PM by Numatic

I dont think they are toxic. Just that they've had enough. It's like babysitting a bunch of kids who are running rampant screaming, yelling, and insulting you. Eventually you just put your foot down and say enough is enough. Seems some people here lack empathy for others. You see community managers for games time and again step down or get fired. And these are hired, paid, professionals who get sick and tired of it.

Now, I will say the Devs are letting it get to them and being rather cold or mute on alot of things they promised to have open discussions about. That is, the users want to talk with someone in-the-know who can bring the devs side of a discussion instead of alot of responses such as "were not changing that because we said were not going to". That's not helpful to a discussion. I was taught the best way to find a solution is to answer with a question.

For example if someone says "Please reduce the 12hr timer", try to respond with "How can we do this and prevent realm jumpers?" And continue to create dialogue from there. Let the players know if you like an idea and that you will bring it up in your internal discussion. And let us know if it was taken off the table and why. Open discussion like this creates a very real feeling of progress even if the idea was scrapped. And the #1 thing about this is to not let the toxic players ruin it for the rest. It's by far the hardest but it can be done. It's simply up to the devs on how open they wish to be about changes. Also dont tell us something was on the table to change and then "taken away because we're mad" when nobody was informed about. One of the most annoying things my wife likes to do is when she is mad at me is to say "I was gunna give you a massage tonight but now that you're being a jerk I'm not going to" when she never told me she was going to in the first place. It just causes resentment because you're saying you were going to give us something we wanted but now that someone is "acting up" it got taken away.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 5:33 PM by Raunz

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 2:40 PM
Raunz wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Jun 2019 11:29 AM
I don't see that as a valid argument as a zerg is quite easy to deal with, also who cares just let them run in a circle with 10fg on stick if they like. Even if that would happen people would get bored and it would naturally balance it self out.

It doesn't matter what you think is valid or not, get that through your thick, ignorant, elitist head.

Thank you for being part of the conversation old timer.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:01 PM by FUINY7

Just run some test and we will be fixed within a couple of weeks, it's not that hard and will shut the mouth of many (possibly including mine), this and a true straw pool.
we need to go with more stats and rational decisions, time is sensitive, server is bleeding out.
Too many neck-beard believing realm hoping is a thing without strict 12h timer... almost insulting to even discuss with those extremist.

Sat 8 Jun 2019 6:27 PM by

Uthred

Going to close this now, as some dont want to listen and this thread turns out into a realm switch timer discussion, again.

The OP got an "answer" from the staff, guess all has been said so far. The timer will not be removed and nor changed. Thank you for understanding.