Danger of major changes

Started 14 May 2019
by Druth
in Tavern
I like most of the major changes, but that is irrelevant.

Major changes are toxic to freeshards, or games in general, unless it comes together with major new contend (like an expansion...).

Major changes does not suddenly make people who left come back, people have moved on to new things, and while some might look and say "I didn't like this, glad they changed it, I will give it a look", I think that people who left are usually gone.
What major changes does do is make people who play leave, or stay. Stay is great, but people leaving is people you wont get back.

The latest change has a large group of people playing assassins feel "cheated"?
And while my sympathy for assassins can fit on a tiiiiiiny spoon, they are people. People playing a class they love, and people that likely wont come back once they've left.


In short, while I or others might agree the changes are good, their timing is bad. Major changes should come before launch (or right after), or with new content.
Tue 14 May 2019 8:28 AM by Lillebror
Why not just let them have there charges while we keep the upgraded Combine forces.

Now majority can run combine forces while the hardcores can run charges. (dont change the gold sink)
Tue 14 May 2019 8:57 AM by Cadebrennus
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 8:14 AM
I like most of the major changes, but that is irrelevant.

Major changes are toxic to freeshards, or games in general, unless it comes together with major new contend (like an expansion...).

Major changes does not suddenly make people who left come back, people have moved on to new things, and while some might look and say "I didn't like this, glad they changed it, I will give it a look", I think that people who left are usually gone.
What major changes does do is make people who play leave, or stay. Stay is great, but people leaving is people you wont get back.

The latest change has a large group of people playing assassins feel "cheated"?
And while my sympathy for assassins can fit on a tiiiiiiny spoon, they are people. People playing a class they love, and people that likely wont come back once they've left.


In short, while I or others might agree the changes are good, their timing is bad. Major changes should come before launch (or right after), or with new content.

Exactly. I've been saying this since the end of beta, but no one took it seriously.
Tue 14 May 2019 8:58 AM by Druth
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 8:57 AM
but no one took it seriously.

I blame your sig
Tue 14 May 2019 9:01 AM by Cadebrennus
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 8:58 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 8:57 AM
but no one took it seriously.

I blame your sig

I have no idea what you're talking about
.
.
.
Tue 14 May 2019 9:30 AM by Pops999
I came back after 18 years to play old school DAOC, with faster leveling and some quality of life improvements. I didn't come back to get into the typical MMO nerf fest of play where the devs wring out the fun.
Tue 14 May 2019 10:17 AM by inoeth
imo only people who relied on having an advantage (charging red buffs) over people who only used combined forces are crying here. im glad that this issue got evened out now.
Tue 14 May 2019 10:50 AM by Bradekes
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 8:14 AM
I like most of the major changes, but that is irrelevant.

Major changes are toxic to freeshards, or games in general, unless it comes together with major new contend (like an expansion...).

Major changes does not suddenly make people who left come back, people have moved on to new things, and while some might look and say "I didn't like this, glad they changed it, I will give it a look", I think that people who left are usually gone.
What major changes does do is make people who play leave, or stay. Stay is great, but people leaving is people you wont get back.

The latest change has a large group of people playing assassins feel "cheated"?
And while my sympathy for assassins can fit on a tiiiiiiny spoon, they are people. People playing a class they love, and people that likely wont come back once they've left.


In short, while I or others might agree the changes are good, their timing is bad. Major changes should come before launch (or right after), or with new content.

You consider these major changes???? Lol.. Some people are so ignorant... Look in patch notes of DAoC look at all they changes per patch compare them to your argument...

Look into the future man.. They wanna get everything right so things continue to go great and get better.. You're letting the few get into your head.. These are necessary changes to bring people and to maintain..

Another thing is not near as many people played before release and they are getting the feedback now that they needed then... Quit acting like you have been playing Phoenix for years when you're putting all the negative shit from your passed DAoC experience on top of your feelings for their minor adjustments and blowing them out of proportion...
Tue 14 May 2019 12:25 PM by Estat
According to the forum warriors Uthgard died because devs refused to make radical changes.

According to the forum warriors (often the same people) Phoenix dies because devs make changes.

My guess is this reasoning is wrong in both cases.
Tue 14 May 2019 2:21 PM by Mavella
Estat wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 12:25 PM
According to the forum warriors Uthgard died because devs refused to make radical changes.

According to the forum warriors (often the same people) Phoenix dies because devs make changes.

My guess is this reasoning is wrong in both cases.

This isn't really as radical a change as they could potentially make but it's seen by MANY as a nerf and restricting game play options. No one likes to lose stats or combat effectiveness in any circumstance, especially months after release. They could have raised everyone up(buffed combined forces and adjusted self buffers as they did. I guarantee this would have been universally praised) and still given a slight edge to min/maxer. The the stat gulf between both parties would have been reduced and it wouldn't have alienated those that invested the time and effort into obtaining those charge items.

The change was definitely a QoL bump for those who didn't charge and a nerf to all those that did. It also did nothing to alleviate the burden of frequent use of charges as it just changed the meta from spec stats to DA/Ablative/Legion. Then it came packaged with an income nerf for many the very next day. There are obviously plenty of ways to make money but it just creates more ill will for the direction the server is headed in.

I explained this exact situation would happen but devs charged forward listening to people in the comments thread that don't even log in except to pay their rent.
Tue 14 May 2019 2:34 PM by Dominus
Nail on the proverbial head.
Tue 14 May 2019 10:50 PM by Luluko
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 2:21 PM
Estat wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 12:25 PM
According to the forum warriors Uthgard died because devs refused to make radical changes.

According to the forum warriors (often the same people) Phoenix dies because devs make changes.

My guess is this reasoning is wrong in both cases.

This isn't really as radical a change as they could potentially make but it's seen by MANY as a nerf and restricting game play options. No one likes to lose stats or combat effectiveness in any circumstance, especially months after release. They could have raised everyone up(buffed combined forces and adjusted self buffers as they did. I guarantee this would have been universally praised) and still given a slight edge to min/maxer. The the stat gulf between both parties would have been reduced and it wouldn't have alienated those that invested the time and effort into obtaining those charge items.

The change was definitely a QoL bump for those who didn't charge and a nerf to all those that did. It also did nothing to alleviate the burden of frequent use of charges as it just changed the meta from spec stats to DA/Ablative/Legion. Then it came packaged with an income nerf for many the very next day. There are obviously plenty of ways to make money but it just creates more ill will for the direction the server is headed in.

I explained this exact situation would happen but devs charged forward listening to people in the comments thread that don't even log in except to pay their rent.
yeah exactly this

nerfs like this are never well received and I dont see a reason why they arent just buffing the buff lines instead of gimping most solo classes which are very few here thanks to no bp speed and emain the zergfest
Tue 14 May 2019 11:20 PM by Warjon
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 8:14 AM
I like most of the major changes, but that is irrelevant.

Major changes are toxic to freeshards, or games in general, unless it comes together with major new contend (like an expansion...).

Major changes does not suddenly make people who left come back, people have moved on to new things, and while some might look and say "I didn't like this, glad they changed it, I will give it a look", I think that people who left are usually gone.
What major changes does do is make people who play leave, or stay. Stay is great, but people leaving is people you wont get back.

The latest change has a large group of people playing assassins feel "cheated"?
And while my sympathy for assassins can fit on a tiiiiiiny spoon, they are people. People playing a class they love, and people that likely wont come back once they've left.


In short, while I or others might agree the changes are good, their timing is bad. Major changes should come before launch (or right after), or with new content.

One can not say it any better than this! As I said before this is still a beta. One doesn't know which of your toons will get hit next.
It ends up being a slow bleed on pop, but blood loss none the less.
Wed 15 May 2019 4:37 AM by Samboca
Just make a daoc without buffs... only supp classes should can buff and nothing else...
Wed 15 May 2019 1:11 PM by Kaziera
The changes have had exactly zero impact for me and my playstyle, grped rvr. Could not care less.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:16 PM by phixion
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:11 PM
The changes have had exactly zero impact for me and my playstyle, grped rvr. Could not care less.

And for soloers, it killed it.

Who suffers due to low pop? Not the people who stopped playing... Maybe look at it from a slightly less selfish point of view, you will have less people to steamroll 8v1.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:20 PM by Pops999
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:11 PM
The changes have had exactly zero impact for me and my playstyle, grped rvr. Could not care less.

You will care when the pop reaches Uth and Live levels.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:21 PM by Kaziera
Pops999 wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:20 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:11 PM
The changes have had exactly zero impact for me and my playstyle, grped rvr. Could not care less.

You will care when the pop reaches Uth and Live levels.

Nope. Many other good games.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:23 PM by Pops999
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:21 PM
Pops999 wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:20 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:11 PM
The changes have had exactly zero impact for me and my playstyle, grped rvr. Could not care less.

You will care when the pop reaches Uth and Live levels.

Nope. Many other good games.

Brilliant, want the game to die as long as your play style is dominant, when it does "I'll just move on".
Wed 15 May 2019 1:27 PM by Kaziera
Pops999 wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:23 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:21 PM
Pops999 wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:20 PM
You will care when the pop reaches Uth and Live levels.

Nope. Many other good games.

Brilliant, want the game to die as long as your play style is dominant, when it does "I'll just move on".

Did i mention that i also didnt feel any power loss when i soloed on my thane and my skald?

Oh right i did feel a change. Less micromanagement. I actually liked that.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:28 PM by phixion
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:27 PM
Did i mention that i also didnt feel any power loss when i soloed on my thane and my skald?

Oh right i did feel a change. Less micromanagement. I actually liked that.

Then you are a casual player, nothing wrong with that--but you're wrong
Wed 15 May 2019 1:29 PM by Kaziera
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:28 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:27 PM
Did i mention that i also didnt feel any power loss when i soloed on my thane and my skald?

Oh right i did feel a change. Less micromanagement. I actually liked that.

Then you are a casual player, nothing wrong with that--but you're wrong

For solo i definitley am a casual. My powergaming powers are invested into grp rvr.

But if you change something to better fit a casual approach, isnt that something that helps to draw in more people?

I personaly am all for offending that one min maxer, if i can please 5 casuals with that change.....
Wed 15 May 2019 1:34 PM by Sepplord
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:28 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:27 PM
Did i mention that i also didnt feel any power loss when i soloed on my thane and my skald?

Oh right i did feel a change. Less micromanagement. I actually liked that.

Then you are a casual player, nothing wrong with that--but you're wrong

Which of his statements is wrong?

I guess you are trying to say: "You are a casual, so your opinion doesn't count" without actually saying that

Failing to understand that the patch makes the game better for the majority of players is the reason why you are unable to bring forward meaningful arguments why it should get changed back/stat nerf be reduced. Your comments have gone from factual information, to rants and whines and now you are telling people that they are straight wrong after they say: "my opinion is XYZ"
Wed 15 May 2019 1:36 PM by Kaziera
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:34 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:28 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:27 PM
Did i mention that i also didnt feel any power loss when i soloed on my thane and my skald?

Oh right i did feel a change. Less micromanagement. I actually liked that.

Then you are a casual player, nothing wrong with that--but you're wrong

Which of his statements is wrong?

I guess you are trying to say: "You are a casual, so your opinion doesn't count" without actually saying that

He played right into my cards, thats ok sepp, ty though.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:36 PM by phixion
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:29 PM
For solo i definitley am a casual. My powergaming powers are invested into grp rvr.

So it's fair to say you might not notice the difference with or without charges. In fact, I would assume that a casual soloer wouldn't even bother with charges to begin with.

For those of us who popped charges everyday for the last 3+ months, we noticed a difference.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:34 PM
Which of his statements is wrong?

I guess you are trying to say: "You are a casual, so your opinion doesn't count" without actually saying that

No, but nice assumption.

He is absolutely, 100% categorically wrong to say he feels no power loss. The stats do not lie, the damage/attackspeed from those stats also do not lie and are apparent to those of us who have been using charges from the start.

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:36 PM
He played right into my cards, thats ok sepp, ty though.

Right into my cards? Is that a saying now?

Don't pretend you set a trap and caught me, you are absolutely wrong and you confirmed my suspicions when you said you are a casual soloer. I wholeheartedly believe you are one of those casual soloers who barely ever used a charge through fear of it's cost and would just run out with a combined forces running.

Again, nothing wrong with that. But lets not speak on stuff we know nothing about.

Let's take a look at the top soloers on the server, look at all those with 0 RPs for this last week... coincidence? I think not. (in fact I know not, I speak to some of them on a daily basis).
Wed 15 May 2019 1:39 PM by Kaziera
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:36 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:29 PM
For solo i definitley am a casual. My powergaming powers are invested into grp rvr.

So it's fair to say you might not notice the difference with or without charges. In fact, I would assume that a casual soloer wouldn't even bother with charges to begin with.

For those of us who popped charges everyday for the last 3+ months, we noticed a difference.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:34 PM
Which of his statements is wrong?

I guess you are trying to say: "You are a casual, so your opinion doesn't count" without actually saying that

No, but nice assumption.

He is absolutely, 100% categorically wrong to say he feels no power loss. The stats do not lie, the damage/attackspeed from those stats also do not lie and are apparent to those of us who have been using charges from the start.

Uhm, when i say i feel no powerloss, then that feeling is correct. Feelings are always correct. Thats what makes them feelings. Its my perception. Not yours.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:40 PM by phixion
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:39 PM
Uhm, when i say i feel no powerloss, then that feeling is correct. Feelings are always correct. Thats what makes them feelings. Its my perception. Not yours.

Then anything you say regarding the game and it's mechanics are to be taken with a whopping grain of salt, because you obviously can't tell the difference between a char with no aug qui and with capped aug qui.

The devs were wrong in adding charges, I said this previously.

The day they were added, they became a necessity to compete.

They were way too expensive to recharge.

All they needed to do was implement the charge stats into the combined forces pots and be done.

Instead they gimped soloers.

I don't get it.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:43 PM by Kaziera
Same as yours, as long as you dont come up with a spreadsheet to compare the real performance of the classes in a scientific manner.

I really like the changes. All you have to do is pop a buff pot and you are done.

Less micro. Less cash. Less farm. More rvr.

Evrybody wins
Wed 15 May 2019 1:44 PM by phixion
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:43 PM
Same as yours, as long as you dont come up with a spreadsheet to compare the real performance of the classes in a scientific manner.

You know a spreadsheet calculator exists with swing speed times? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G3YNfILQigMuZnNJ0439Wl2_04wZtVdaasd2bJsJa-8/edit#gid=0

You know I am RR11 and have tried MoA9 and capped aug qui?

How much time have you put in to your solo class? I'd say I spent almost 20p on recharging alone, what about you?
Wed 15 May 2019 1:46 PM by Kaziera
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:44 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:43 PM
Same as yours, as long as you dont come up with a spreadsheet to compare the real performance of the classes in a scientific manner.

You know a spreadsheet calculator exists with swing speed times?

You know I am RR11 and have tried MoA9 and capped aug qui?

How much time have you put in to your solo class?

Not as much as you obviously. But thats why i dont fear that little power loss as much as you do.

I mentioned a spreadsheet with a scientific valid amount of datapoints. Not a puny swingspeed calculator.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:48 PM by phixion
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:46 PM
Not as much as you obviously. But thats why i dont fear that little power loss as much as you do.

Well, that's because I don't have an 8 man to go run to when soloers get slapped with the nerf stick.

For somebody who claims to not care, you sure seem to care a lot about defending a position that is just plain wrong. You have no good response to my arguments... I'll be moving on now. This is like arguing with know-it-alls who don't actually know anything in /advice chat.
Wed 15 May 2019 1:53 PM by Kaziera
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:48 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:46 PM
Not as much as you obviously. But thats why i dont fear that little power loss as much as you do.

Well, that's because I don't have an 8 man to go run to when soloers get slapped with the nerf stick.

For somebody who claims to not care, you sure seem to care a lot about defending a position that is just plain wrong. You have no good response to my arguments... I'll be moving on now. This is like arguing with know-it-alls who don't actually know anything in /advice chat.

No, i just like the brainjogging. You by the way have no arguments, just like me. All you can show for is:

I played until rr11 and i feel the difference.

While i have the same thing to show for:

I played for some evenings solo and i feel no difference.

Gut feeling is not a valid argument.

Back to op topic. There is much more to consider imo. Adding changes to a major Content patch might seem good, but it removes the chance of watching a few changes unfold and beeing afterwards able to evaluate them piece by piece.

Immagine they put all a months changes into one patch. It would be big clusterfuck. It would be really hard to evaluate single changes by their effect.

Like this voices like phixion can be heard, even though they dont agree with me. Evry change can be percieved, read and evaluated by the ppl that are affected by it.
Wed 15 May 2019 2:19 PM by Sepplord
The thing that you still don't want to admit phixion (i am at a point where i doubt you do not understand), is that soloers did not all get nerfed...
That's the whole point i am trying to explain. min/max soloers that always charged all buffs were nerfed. But that is a very small subset of soloers

And i understand why you are upset, i would be upset in your situation too (and partially am because while i didn't always charged everything, i regularly charged multiple stats)


Kaziera is here as one of the people openly stating that he soloes without min/maxing every buff. And that he likes the change (from that POV understandable imo).
There is no right or wrong within that statement (well unless he is actively lying about his feelings, but that's a technicality)



And, for sake of completeness, for the casual mass, players that excell and are far above the huge mass of players aren't even beneficial to the happiness of the casual. They are unsurmountable enemies that are unfun to fight against even when all else is equal.
Wed 15 May 2019 2:37 PM by phixion
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:19 PM
The thing that you still don't want to admit phixion (i am at a point where i doubt you do not understand), is that soloers did not all get nerfed...
That's the whole point i am trying to explain. min/max soloers that always charged all buffs were nerfed. But that is a very small subset of soloers

And i understand why you are upset, i would be upset in your situation too (and partially am because while i didn't always charged everything, i regularly charged multiple stats)


Kaziera is here as one of the people openly stating that he soloes without min/maxing every buff. And that he likes the change (from that POV understandable imo).
There is no right or wrong within that statement (well unless he is actively lying about his feelings, but that's a technicality)



And, for sake of completeness, for the casual mass, players that excell and are far above the huge mass of players aren't even beneficial to the happiness of the casual. They are unsurmountable enemies that are unfun to fight against even when all else is equal.

He says he doesn't feel any difference, therefore there is no difference. Even though I feel a difference and statistics and facts back up my argument, because we are losing stats.

It really is a case of a guy who doesn't care about soloing, never used a charge in his life vs someone who solo'd exclusively and used charges 24/7.

Anyone serious about soloing in this game had to use charges.

So did it nerf me? Yes.

Did it nerf him? No. Cos he didn't use them anyway and he groups, so who cares.

Again, look at the herald... This server lost a lot of soloers over this, I hope it was worth it.
Wed 15 May 2019 2:41 PM by Taftaf
Visible solos are having easier times thanks to this patch because stealthers got nerfed as phixion says. For us, that's cool, as a Sorc now I can compete vs stealthers and have a chance of winning.

I think stealthers have got nothing positive from this patch tho, must be frustrating, I don't like stealthers but can feel the pain.
Wed 15 May 2019 2:47 PM by Sektor
phixion wrote:
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:39 PM
Uhm, when i say i feel no powerloss, then that feeling is correct. Feelings are always correct. Thats what makes them feelings. Its my perception. Not yours.

Then anything you say regarding the game and it's mechanics are to be taken with a whopping grain of salt, because you obviously can't tell the difference between a char with no aug qui and with capped aug qui.

The devs were wrong in adding charges, I said this previously.

The day they were added, they became a necessity to compete.

They were way too expensive to recharge.

All they needed to do was implement the charge stats into the combined forces pots and be done.

Instead they gimped soloers.

I don't get it.


Dude plz stop QQ over 20 quickness its getting old. So what some children took their toys and went home? Explain how losing "soloers" is so detrimental to a MMO? IF they want to go play pouty time because X Y Z so what who cares. IF anyone is going to pack it in for such a small change their opinion isn't worth hearing in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.
Wed 15 May 2019 2:59 PM by Tlooney
It's ok the hardcore who have quit a game they love over it being less money max have managed to go outside and get some fresh air from unhealthy 20 hour gaming sessions.

Phoxion or whatever your name is your RR11 you are online 12 + hours a day moaning like a little bitch, if you don't like it leave.

Nobody is asking you to stay I don't care about how many kills you have and I won't remember you in 1 weeks time.

Edit: PLS dont insult other players. thank you.
Wed 15 May 2019 3:02 PM by Luluko
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:47 PM
phixion wrote:
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:39 PM
Uhm, when i say i feel no powerloss, then that feeling is correct. Feelings are always correct. Thats what makes them feelings. Its my perception. Not yours.

Then anything you say regarding the game and it's mechanics are to be taken with a whopping grain of salt, because you obviously can't tell the difference between a char with no aug qui and with capped aug qui.

The devs were wrong in adding charges, I said this previously.

The day they were added, they became a necessity to compete.

They were way too expensive to recharge.

All they needed to do was implement the charge stats into the combined forces pots and be done.

Instead they gimped soloers.

I don't get it.


Dude plz stop QQ over 20 quickness its getting old. So what some children took their toys and went home? Explain how losing "soloers" is so detrimental to a MMO? IF they want to go play pouty time because X Y Z so what who cares. IF anyone is going to pack it in for such a small change their opinion isn't worth hearing in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.
Its the food chain and if soloers leave smallman will find less to kill and then fg find less smallmans to kill. If you cant see that then there is no point in arguing with you. It happened on live until only zerg players and people with regular 8man grps were left since no one without connections could find a grp and if he did or built one the people logged after the first wipe. Thats the history of pugs in daoc which often just consist of fed up solo players which want a break from getting zerged.
Wed 15 May 2019 3:04 PM by PingGuy
The idea that this hurt soloers is a fallacy. This hurt people who used as many charges as possible, as often as possible. That's it, period.

I'm a soloer, and this helped me, because it had nothing to do with soloing, and everything to do with hardcore versus casual. Welcome to a more even playing field. Stop pretending you aren't complaining about how it's suddenly more even.
Wed 15 May 2019 3:07 PM by phixion
Tlooney wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:59 PM
It's ok the hardcore who have quit a game they love over it being less money max have managed to go outside and get some fresh air from unhealthy 20 hour gaming sessions.

Phoxion or whatever your name is your RR11 you are online 12 + hours a day moaning like a little bitch, if you don't like it leave.

Nobody is asking you to stay I don't care about how many kills you have and I won't remember you in 1 weeks time.

Go outside and get a meaningful life instead of wasting your energy over 'takes me 3 more swings' to wtfpwn everyone with my character.

Your one of the toxic elite fucks that kills the game for everyone else same as these 8v8 epeen players. You realise if everyone played like you then there would be no casuals and without casuals this game is uthgard and live AKA dead.

Respect your casuals and stand down motherfucker

Wow, the level of butthurt is through the roof. Must have given this guy a beating more than once.

PingGuy wrote: Welcome to a more even playing field. Stop pretending you aren't complaining about how it's suddenly more even.

Yes, if you choose to ignore the even wider gap between grouped and smallman/soloers.
Wed 15 May 2019 3:09 PM by Luluko
Tlooney wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:59 PM
It's ok the hardcore who have quit a game they love over it being less money max have managed to go outside and get some fresh air from unhealthy 20 hour gaming sessions.

Phoxion or whatever your name is your RR11 you are online 12 + hours a day moaning like a little bitch, if you don't like it leave.

Nobody is asking you to stay I don't care about how many kills you have and I won't remember you in 1 weeks time.

Go outside and get a meaningful life instead of wasting your energy over 'takes me 3 more swings' to wtfpwn everyone with my character.

Your one of the toxic elite fucks that kills the game for everyone else same as these 8v8 epeen players. You realise if everyone played like you then there would be no casuals and without casuals this game is uthgard and live AKA dead.

Respect your casuals and stand down motherfucker
weird you call him toxic but you are the one insulting him here...also most casuals already left weeks ago, left are only the daoc addicts which dont want to play something else and I wouldnt call them elite just because they play a lot. I am already burned out at 7l6 from mostly soloing and I dont really see the point in continuing playing if all thats left is zergs and 16slot. And I really dont see the problem why some people here think that the old system was so problematic it was fine they should have just kept the charges and haste as it was.
Wed 15 May 2019 3:17 PM by Luluko
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 3:04 PM
The idea that this hurt soloers is a fallacy. This hurt people who used as many charges as possible, as often as possible. That's it, period.

I'm a soloer, and this helped me, because it had nothing to do with soloing, and everything to do with hardcore versus casual. Welcome to a more even playing field. Stop pretending you aren't complaining about how it's suddenly more even.

what do you solo on? and what rr?

I soloed most of my time in daoc and you build a capped temp and get the best buffs so that you have a chance against duos and more. You need every advantage you can get or you will just die over and over. But it seems some people are so learnresistant they will jump from a cliff over and over again and then just loggout if it doesnt work out instead of thinking "hm what could I do better next time". The logical conclusion is often you just need to be better prepared or else they could just delete every potion and charge in the game. Sure it was expensive to charge before and nobody would have complained if they made recharging cheaper but the devs didnt want that since for some reason they want to subsidize speed and self/buff classes
Wed 15 May 2019 3:26 PM by Sektor
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 3:02 PM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:47 PM
phixion wrote: Then anything you say regarding the game and it's mechanics are to be taken with a whopping grain of salt, because you obviously can't tell the difference between a char with no aug qui and with capped aug qui.

The devs were wrong in adding charges, I said this previously.

The day they were added, they became a necessity to compete.

They were way too expensive to recharge.

All they needed to do was implement the charge stats into the combined forces pots and be done.

Instead they gimped soloers.

I don't get it.


Dude plz stop QQ over 20 quickness its getting old. So what some children took their toys and went home? Explain how losing "soloers" is so detrimental to a MMO? IF they want to go play pouty time because X Y Z so what who cares. IF anyone is going to pack it in for such a small change their opinion isn't worth hearing in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.
Its the food chain and if soloers leave smallman will find less to kill and then fg find less smallmans to kill. If you cant see that then there is no point in arguing with you. It happened on live until only zerg players and people with regular 8man grps were left since no one without connections could find a grp and if he did or built one the people logged after the first wipe. Thats the history of pugs in daoc which often just consist of fed up solo players which want a break from getting zerged.

There are PLENTY of soloers who aren't going to cry over 20 quick and keep playing. not a big deal to lose 5 of them.
Wed 15 May 2019 3:30 PM by PingGuy
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 3:07 PM
Yes, if you choose to ignore the even wider gap between grouped and smallman/soloers.

Yes, it should be ignored, because the larger force already has enough of an advantage that these marginal adjustments won't matter. The class selection of two forces, and the skills of those players, are going to matter far more than a few stats that may be buffed better by buffing classes.

What if the smallman has the buffing classes and the FG does not? If the FG was running charges before, they are weaker now. Still, that likely means the FG has more damage classes and will likely win anyway, even at a stat disadvantage. That's why I'm saying it's marginal, not large enough to make a difference in the scenario you are describing.

I get it, you are the top dog SB and you put a lot into your character. Chances are though, after these changes, you'll still be top dog. So what's the big deal?
Wed 15 May 2019 3:46 PM by PingGuy
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 3:17 PM
what do you solo on? and what rr?

I soloed most of my time in daoc and you build a capped temp and get the best buffs so that you have a chance against duos and more. You need every advantage you can get or you will just die over and over. But it seems some people are so learnresistant they will jump from a cliff over and over again and then just loggout if it doesnt work out instead of thinking "hm what could I do better next time". The logical conclusion is often you just need to be better prepared or else they could just delete every potion and charge in the game. Sure it was expensive to charge before and nobody would have complained if they made recharging cheaper but the devs didnt want that since for some reason they want to subsidize speed and self/buff classes

It's in my sig. I'm really casual, and only played DAoC the first year it was out. So most of my time playing on Phoenix so far was learning and experimenting and trying different classes. My Warden isn't even templated yet, and he's my main. I started playing on the second day of launch. I don't think some people truly understand the difference between casual and hardcore. When I RvR I run solo and follow the zerg. That means a lot of dying, from assassins on the way to action, and from arriving at the action. I never bought a potion or a charge item before the changes. I wasn't interested in farming gold to fuel RvR time, I just wanted to get in on some action.

So, to be clear: Yes, there are people who wouldn't just be happy with making recharging cheaper. The more casual a person is, the less likely they are to jump through the hoops the hardcores consider mandatory. Charge juggling ever 2 minutes? No flipping way, it's not even a question, I wouldn't do that with zero upkeep cost. Micro-management sucks, and removes all potential fun from any equation.

I'll be honest, I don't even really want to have to template. But since it's a one time thing I'm willing to do it. Otherwise I'd just keep using ROG's like I have on every character so far. I like DAoC, and could still have plenty of fun here on Phoenix for a while without ever setting foot in RvR. But I want to do RvR too, and not be doomed to being flicked like a mosquito when anybody sees me. If I can accomplish that without playing hardcore, then I will. If not, I'll PvE until I'm bored and move on.

Maybe I'm not committed enough for some to see me as being deserving of playing DAoC. But I'm playing on my own terms, just like everybody else.
Wed 15 May 2019 4:07 PM by Kaziera
Can we return to the topic now, wich is the manner of deployment of changes?
Wed 15 May 2019 4:30 PM by Warlay
Forget it phixion you are talking to a casual wall here, they will not understand it. they are not able to just watch the herald of solors and look at the rps since patch. its simple, a lot of ppl left the server :>
Wed 15 May 2019 4:40 PM by Luluko
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 3:46 PM
Maybe I'm not committed enough for some to see me as being deserving of playing DAoC. But I'm playing on my own terms, just like everybody else.
Its very unfair to people which are willing to spend the time on that micromanagement and aquiring those charges to be competive soloers. While your soloing sounds more like zergsurfing to me, which should also be a valid playstyle and while I generally like the change to the combined forces potion that it has specc af and better haste now, just the nerf to the lvl 40 haste potions and dex/qui str/con and specc af charges wasnt needed and also doesnt hurt any zerg surfer or casual soloer like you, those stats dont matter in 1vs1 between a rr10 player and maybe a rr5 casual soloer but they certainly matter if you try to kill a class which is really tough like champ or a fulltank/lighttank. Especialy as a sb or skald you need a lot of active ra's just to not die in slam vs most classes. And those 2 are certainly the best when it comes to soloing in mid and having good buffs is mandatory if you want to fight more than just xper or untemped or low rr pleps since many people dont solo and run duo so you also need to be able to try those with all RA's/buff charges up or else there isnt really much to fight in the long run.
Wed 15 May 2019 4:47 PM by Kaziera
Warlay wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 4:30 PM
Forget it phixion you are talking to a casual wall here, they will not understand it. they are not able to just watch the herald of solors and look at the rps since patch. its simple, a lot of ppl left the server :>

Not even 20 quickness.
Wed 15 May 2019 5:02 PM by Warlay
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 4:47 PM
Warlay wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 4:30 PM
Forget it phixion you are talking to a casual wall here, they will not understand it. they are not able to just watch the herald of solors and look at the rps since patch. its simple, a lot of ppl left the server :>

Not even 20 quickness.

not even brain :>
Wed 15 May 2019 5:13 PM by PingGuy
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 4:40 PM
Its very unfair to people which are willing to spend the time on that micromanagement and aquiring those charges to be competive soloers. While your soloing sounds more like zergsurfing to me, which should also be a valid playstyle and while I generally like the change to the combined forces potion that it has specc af and better haste now, just the nerf to the lvl 40 haste potions and dex/qui str/con and specc af charges wasnt needed and also doesnt hurt any zerg surfer or casual soloer like you, those stats dont matter in 1vs1 between a rr10 player and maybe a rr5 casual soloer but they certainly matter if you try to kill a class which is really tough like champ or a fulltank/lighttank. Especialy as a sb or skald you need a lot of active ra's just to not die in slam vs most classes. And those 2 are certainly the best when it comes to soloing in mid and having good buffs is mandatory if you want to fight more than just xper or untemped or low rr pleps since many people dont solo and run duo so you also need to be able to try those with all RA's/buff charges up or else there isnt really much to fight in the long run.

I could say that the exact opposite is true also. The old way was very unfair to those who weren't willing to spend the time on micromanagement and acquiring those charges. But really the important part is that the charges had to get nerfed to help the buffing and self-buffing classes that choose to spec those lines. That was important to me also. There is literally no downside to these changes from where I stand, but I understand certain playstyles were affected differently. Still I think the hardcores will come out of this just fine. Some are rage-quitting or taking a break, but I think they'll find their commitment to perfection will still benefit them just fine on this server.
Wed 15 May 2019 5:25 PM by phixion
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 4:47 PM
Warlay wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 4:30 PM
Forget it phixion you are talking to a casual wall here, they will not understand it. they are not able to just watch the herald of solors and look at the rps since patch. its simple, a lot of ppl left the server :>

Not even 20 quickness.

25.
Wed 15 May 2019 6:49 PM by Luluko
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 5:13 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 4:40 PM
Its very unfair to people which are willing to spend the time on that micromanagement and aquiring those charges to be competive soloers. While your soloing sounds more like zergsurfing to me, which should also be a valid playstyle and while I generally like the change to the combined forces potion that it has specc af and better haste now, just the nerf to the lvl 40 haste potions and dex/qui str/con and specc af charges wasnt needed and also doesnt hurt any zerg surfer or casual soloer like you, those stats dont matter in 1vs1 between a rr10 player and maybe a rr5 casual soloer but they certainly matter if you try to kill a class which is really tough like champ or a fulltank/lighttank. Especialy as a sb or skald you need a lot of active ra's just to not die in slam vs most classes. And those 2 are certainly the best when it comes to soloing in mid and having good buffs is mandatory if you want to fight more than just xper or untemped or low rr pleps since many people dont solo and run duo so you also need to be able to try those with all RA's/buff charges up or else there isnt really much to fight in the long run.

I could say that the exact opposite is true also. The old way was very unfair to those who weren't willing to spend the time on micromanagement and acquiring those charges. But really the important part is that the charges had to get nerfed to help the buffing and self-buffing classes that choose to spec those lines.
How is it unfair if you prepare yourself and put effort into your playstyle that it pays out at the end? Whats next do we make platin cap so you cant get over a certain limit just so that casual players dont feel poor? Thats not how the world works and it shouldnt in a game more effort should always be rewarded, if people are too lazy they should have to live with the consequences. Also the buff to the combined forces was more than enough to even out the playfield for people which dont want to juggle that many timers no need to nerf the charges. The selfbuff class issue could have been solved differently that classes like warden, hunter and ranger maybe get some smallbuffs instead but imho those few classes where the buffspecc line is not worth speccing are so few thats its neglectable in my eyes.
Wed 15 May 2019 6:54 PM by Warlay
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 5:13 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 4:40 PM
Its very unfair to people which are willing to spend the time on that micromanagement and aquiring those charges to be competive soloers. While your soloing sounds more like zergsurfing to me, which should also be a valid playstyle and while I generally like the change to the combined forces potion that it has specc af and better haste now, just the nerf to the lvl 40 haste potions and dex/qui str/con and specc af charges wasnt needed and also doesnt hurt any zerg surfer or casual soloer like you, those stats dont matter in 1vs1 between a rr10 player and maybe a rr5 casual soloer but they certainly matter if you try to kill a class which is really tough like champ or a fulltank/lighttank. Especialy as a sb or skald you need a lot of active ra's just to not die in slam vs most classes. And those 2 are certainly the best when it comes to soloing in mid and having good buffs is mandatory if you want to fight more than just xper or untemped or low rr pleps since many people dont solo and run duo so you also need to be able to try those with all RA's/buff charges up or else there isnt really much to fight in the long run.

I could say that the exact opposite is true also. The old way was very unfair to those who weren't willing to spend the time on micromanagement and acquiring those charges. But really the important part is that the charges had to get nerfed to help the buffing and self-buffing classes that choose to spec those lines. That was important to me also. There is literally no downside to these changes from where I stand, but I understand certain playstyles were affected differently. Still I think the hardcores will come out of this just fine. Some are rage-quitting or taking a break, but I think they'll find their commitment to perfection will still benefit them just fine on this server.

says a 3l1 warden. what is your experience in solo play on this server? 2 days of zerg in emain? sry but this is really ridiculous
Wed 15 May 2019 7:10 PM by PingGuy
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 6:49 PM
How is it unfair if you prepare yourself and put effort into your playstyle that it pays out at the end? Whats next do we make platin cap so you cant get over a certain limit just so that casual players dont feel poor? Thats not how the world works and it shouldnt in a game more effort should always be rewarded, if people are too lazy they should have to live with the consequences. Also the buff to the combined forces was more than enough to even out the playfield for people which dont want to juggle that many timers no need to nerf the charges. The selfbuff class issue could have been solved differently that classes like warden, hunter and ranger maybe get some smallbuffs instead but imho those few classes where the buffspecc line is not worth speccing are so few thats its neglectable in my eyes.

It was a comparison of two sides of the coin. When extra effort is beneficial, those who put in extra effort will benefit. When extra effort is not beneficial, those who don't put in extra effort will benefit. You are a hardcore player, so you will always favor extra effort benefiting you. I am a casual player, so I will always favor there being a ceiling to how much effort is needed to compete.

The problem with "more effort always being rewarded" is that it creates a tier of players who will always be ahead of everybody else because they are willing to put in more time or micro-manage their time. That leaves the rest falling farther behind and is a negative influence on getting people to participate. If you want to look at the real world, it's not perfect either. We have enough rich getting richer in the real world, and there they have the power to keep it that way. How's that working out for the rest of us that have to live in their world? Not well.

Maybe there was another way to deal with the buffing classes, I'm not opposed to alternate solutions if they work well. But we also have to consider the work required to implement said solutions. Re-balancing all the buff lines just so charge buffs can stay at 75 seems like a lot of work that was avoidable by doing it the way they did.

I think we all have to consider how changes will affect the life of the server. Maybe most people are hardcore and will leave, or maybe most people are neither hardcore or casual, and they will stay while the rest of us on the fringes argue about it on the forums to no avail.
Wed 15 May 2019 7:32 PM by PingGuy
Warlay wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 6:54 PM
says a 3l1 warden. what is your experience in solo play on this server? 2 days of zerg in emain? sry but this is really ridiculous

That's the response I was expecting. I've argued nothing based on experience, only the details of the changes and how they affect different playstyles. But thank you for going there, because it shows you only care about being better than everyone else. I'm a casual player who didn't care about DAoC RvR before January of this year, and now I'm playing on the server and dabbling in RvR. The participation bonuses and accessibility of play on this custom server incentivized me to give it a shot. Anything they can do to encourage a broad selection of people to play on this server is a good thing. But let's talk about how I got where I am.

Day 2 of the server I made a Blademaster and slowly leveled him to 32, having no idea what I was doing. Then I gave up on that and made a Warden, which I leveled to 50 and started RvRing from the mid-30's on. Upon reaching 50, I realized I needed to do this template thing, but didn't want to farm with the Warden. So I made an Animist, ended up hating it, and took an Albion vacation. Leveled a Theurgist to 49, and started trying different specs in RvR. Realized my PvE spec wouldn't work for RvR, and made a Necro to farm with instead. Got that to the mid-20's, and then came back to Hibernia to level an Enchanter to use as a farming char for the Warden, which I missed playing. I'm still working on that, and haven't RvR'd in a while as I'm trying to get the Warden setup right before I do again.

The more hardcore friendly this server gets, the less casual friendly it will be. There has to be a balance, neither side should get all the love. As I understand it, there are still a few charges for the hardcores to juggle in combat to give them the edge they can't live without. But the rest of us, who aren't using charges, are on a more even plane now. More likely to be using potions, and having the same buffs. So there is still a gold sink, but a more reasonable one, and it's likely to hit more players than before.

Maybe you would have a point if I was the only one arguing this, but I'm not, plenty more experienced players are ok with the changes. So even though my 3L1 is like 90% task RPs, it doesn't matter. I'm not saying my experience is greater than yours, therefore listen to me. I'm saying in the scheme of how MMORPGs work, and the dynamics of freeshards and player behavior, there are more considerations to worry about than some hardcore players losing a marginal bit of effectiveness in battle.
Wed 15 May 2019 7:53 PM by phixion
So we can at least agree that these changes have affected certain types of players more than others?

e.g. zerging is still fine.
Wed 15 May 2019 8:07 PM by PingGuy
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 7:53 PM
So we can at least agree that these changes have affected certain types of players more than others?

e.g. zerging is still fine.

Yes, I don't think that's an unreasonable statement. People who usually group were affected the least. Hardcore solos were affected negatively, casual solos were affected positively. I don't think anybody is trying to say otherwise.
Wed 15 May 2019 9:22 PM by Luluko
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 7:32 PM
I'm saying in the scheme of how MMORPGs work, and the dynamics of freeshards and player behavior, there are more considerations to worry about than some hardcore players losing a marginal bit of effectiveness in battle.

Well if you only consider the casuals which join keep raids to pve those then there is really no point in arguing thats not rvr thats pve. And as soon as the zergs start avoiding each other like they did on live the last few years because one site usually had twice the numbers or more than people will start logging out and maybe not come back. Casuals arent as attached to their toons like "hardcore" players which soloed one toon above rr 8+ you know how much time that is played? Prolly arround 25days/600hours and if then your playstyle gets nerfed even more since its already really hard to solo here because of no speed charges, well many people maybe think its not an issue if those solos leave and sure the server will go on for awhile. But those hardcore players also have friends they help which are casuals sometimes and if those dont get help for their temps or some potions made anymore by those hardcore players they will also leave. So both sites should be kept happy and those 25 more stats arent that much of a balance issue but if people build their class/specc arround those buffs and 20days of played + got now gimped for no real reason... then thats a little much for some people to accept. Especially since soloing is already quite frustrating with the constant zerging and adding.
Wed 15 May 2019 9:32 PM by Sektor
Luluko wrote: [quote=PingGuy post_id=64546 time=<a href="tel:1557948734">1557948734</a> user_id=15033] I'm saying in the scheme of how MMORPGs work, and the dynamics of freeshards and player behavior, there are more considerations to worry about than some hardcore players losing a marginal bit of effectiveness in battle.

Well if you only consider the casuals which join keep raids to pve those then there is really no point in arguing thats not rvr thats pve. And as soon as the zergs start avoiding each other like they did on live the last few years because one site usually had twice the numbers or more than people will start logging out and maybe not come back. Casuals arent as attached to their toons like "hardcore" players which soloed one toon above rr 8+ you know how much time that is played? Prolly arround 25days/600hours and if then your playstyle gets nerfed even more since its already really hard to solo here because of no speed charges, well many people maybe think its not an issue if those solos leave and sure the server will go on for awhile. But those hardcore players also have friends they help which are casuals sometimes and if those dont get help for their temps or some potions made anymore by those hardcore players they will also leave. So both sites should be kept happy and those 25 more stats arent that much of a balance issue but if people build their class/specc arround those buffs and 20days of played + got now gimped for no real reason... then thats a little much for some people to accept. Especially since soloing is already quite frustrating with the constant zerging and adding.
[/quote]

Anytime someone complains about adding fights I die a little inside. It’s a game about war dude, kill the enemy by any means necessary. If you want structure do 2v2 arenas in wow.
Wed 15 May 2019 9:46 PM by Luluko
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:32 PM
Luluko wrote: [quote=PingGuy post_id=64546 time=<a href="tel:1557948734">1557948734</a> user_id=15033] I'm saying in the scheme of how MMORPGs work, and the dynamics of freeshards and player behavior, there are more considerations to worry about than some hardcore players losing a marginal bit of effectiveness in battle.

Well if you only consider the casuals which join keep raids to pve those then there is really no point in arguing thats not rvr thats pve. And as soon as the zergs start avoiding each other like they did on live the last few years because one site usually had twice the numbers or more than people will start logging out and maybe not come back. Casuals arent as attached to their toons like "hardcore" players which soloed one toon above rr 8+ you know how much time that is played? Prolly arround 25days/600hours and if then your playstyle gets nerfed even more since its already really hard to solo here because of no speed charges, well many people maybe think its not an issue if those solos leave and sure the server will go on for awhile. But those hardcore players also have friends they help which are casuals sometimes and if those dont get help for their temps or some potions made anymore by those hardcore players they will also leave. So both sites should be kept happy and those 25 more stats arent that much of a balance issue but if people build their class/specc arround those buffs and 20days of played + got now gimped for no real reason... then thats a little much for some people to accept. Especially since soloing is already quite frustrating with the constant zerging and adding.

Anytime someone complains about adding fights I die a little inside. It’s a game about war dude, kill the enemy by any means necessary. If you want structure do 2v2 arenas in wow.
[/quote]

oh thats the one point you found that triggered you? Where is there complaining about adding I just said how it is.... geez if I would get 1$ everytime someones tells me to go play wow I would be rich.
Wed 15 May 2019 9:50 PM by Sektor
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:46 PM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:32 PM
Luluko wrote: [quote=PingGuy post_id=64546 time=<a href="tel:1557948734">1557948734</a> user_id=15033] I'm saying in the scheme of how MMORPGs work, and the dynamics of freeshards and player behavior, there are more considerations to worry about than some hardcore players losing a marginal bit of effectiveness in battle.

Well if you only consider the casuals which join keep raids to pve those then there is really no point in arguing thats not rvr thats pve. And as soon as the zergs start avoiding each other like they did on live the last few years because one site usually had twice the numbers or more than people will start logging out and maybe not come back. Casuals arent as attached to their toons like "hardcore" players which soloed one toon above rr 8+ you know how much time that is played? Prolly arround 25days/600hours and if then your playstyle gets nerfed even more since its already really hard to solo here because of no speed charges, well many people maybe think its not an issue if those solos leave and sure the server will go on for awhile. But those hardcore players also have friends they help which are casuals sometimes and if those dont get help for their temps or some potions made anymore by those hardcore players they will also leave. So both sites should be kept happy and those 25 more stats arent that much of a balance issue but if people build their class/specc arround those buffs and 20days of played + got now gimped for no real reason... then thats a little much for some people to accept. Especially since soloing is already quite frustrating with the constant zerging and adding.

Anytime someone complains about adding fights I die a little inside. It’s a game about war dude, kill the enemy by any means necessary. If you want structure do 2v2 arenas in wow.

oh thats the one point you found that triggered you? Where is there complaining about adding I just said how it is.... geez if I would get 1$ everytime someones tells me to go play wow I would be rich.
[/quote]

😂😂 “triggered” nice buzz word edge lord. The game was never designed to cater to solos if you don’t know that 18 years later.... Sorry 😁
Thu 16 May 2019 12:04 AM by AngelRose
This hard core player vs casual player discussion is just dumb. I was a casual player, but it was still somewhat easy to get a good template, with charges. If you chose to not get the charges, that wasn't casual..that was just lazy.

I am repeating myself, but all the devs needed to do was increase the charge time and decrease the costs. It was a good system that did not need to be re-invented. Yes, having to time the charges was mildly annoying, but annoyance would have decreased with the increased charge time

But....devs said I was wrong...it's their shard. /shrug


also - stop saying stealthers quit over this. Sins quit over this change. Most solo Archers quit a while ago. Broken archtype on this server
Thu 16 May 2019 7:30 AM by Druth
I'm sorry if some people saw my post as a QQ (which I seem to state it's not, in fact I was in favor of the change just not the timing), but even worse as an attack on the people who made the server possible.
Like with Uthgard team, I have the deepest/utmost respect for people who toil this hard to enable ME to have fun. I will never do anything that selfless, so I'm always baffled when I see people do it.

But while Uth 2.0 might not have made enough significant changes, Uth 1.0 tanked due to major changes. Barrels, hastener tokens, etc etc.
All changes were made with the heart in the right place, but it had a negative impact on population none the less.

The change to charges is major. I like it, but that does not mean that it's a good change.
People mistake what they THINK is right, with what IS right.

And as I say to everyone who have "good" ideas: "If you can not think of the negative impact from your idea, you have not thought it through".

So as a proponent of the change, I think it's in order for me to list the negatives from making the change...
- Class balance; Beta was spend balancing around everyone running fully potted, and with ALL charges for free and so readily available to all. Now selfbuff classes, and people grouped with buffers, have been indirectly buffed. So unless you think they were gimp before the change, they are now OP compared to before.
- PvE; charge items are a part of the economy. Hard-core PvP'ers had 2 choices, farm the items, or farm the gold and buy them. Often farming the gold is easier and without the risk of bad luck (some mobs takes 20+ kills for the item to drop). So charge items enabled people who don't mind the tedious work of camping a mob, to earn gold that way by selling the items.
- Epic PvE; the change has removed another reason for people to do Epic PvE. Not only have the change dropped a LOT of feathers from the resale, back into the game, but many people just lost a reason to farm for feathers.
- Inflation; Charge items drained gold from the game, now they don't. The change in salvage droprates could off-set this though.

The positives have been listed many times, so I wont bother.
Thu 16 May 2019 7:31 AM by Druth
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 7:30 AM
I'm sorry if some people saw my post as a QQ (which I seem to state it's not, in fact I was in favor of the change just not the timing), but even worse as an attack on the people who made the server possible.
Like with Uthgard team, I have the deepest/utmost respect for people who toil this hard to enable ME to have fun. I will never do anything that selfless, so I'm always baffled when I see people do it.

But while Uth 2.0 might not have made enough significant changes, Uth 1.0 tanked due to major changes. Barrels, hastener tokens, etc etc.
All changes were made with the heart in the right place, but it had a negative impact on population none the less.

The change to charges is major. I like it, but that does not mean that it's a good change.
People mistake what they THINK is right, with what IS right.

And as I say to everyone who have "good" ideas: "If you can not think of the negative impact from your idea, you have not thought it through".

So as a proponent of the change, I think it's in order for me to list the negatives from making the change...
- Class balance; Beta was spend balancing around everyone running fully potted, and with ALL charges for free and so readily available to all. Now selfbuff classes, and people grouped with buffers, have been indirectly buffed. So unless you think they were gimp before the change, they are now OP compared to before.
- PvE; charge items are a part of the economy. Hard-core PvP'ers had 2 choices, farm the items, or farm the gold and buy them. Often farming the gold is easier and without the risk of bad luck (some mobs takes 20+ kills for the item to drop). So charge items enabled people who don't mind the tedious work of camping a mob, to earn gold that way by selling the items.
- Epic PvE; the change has removed another reason for people to do Epic PvE. Not only have the change dropped a LOT of feathers from the resale, back into the game, but many people just lost one reason to farm for feathers.
- Inflation; Charge items drained gold from the game, now they don't. The change in salvage droprates could off-set this though.

The positives have been listed many times, so I wont bother.
Thu 16 May 2019 10:35 AM by Luluko
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 7:30 AM
.
- Epic PvE; the change has removed another reason for people to do Epic PvE. Not only have the change dropped a LOT of feathers from the resale, back into the game, but many people just lost a reason to farm for feathers.
people certainly need to do less raids now because they dont need those items anymore thats a + point for me since those epic dungeons are boring pretty fast I did like 35 tg raids and 2 galla raids, imho I think there should be repeatable rvr quests to get feathers or you get like 100 hundred for every completed pvp task.

I doubt many go to epic raids because they enjoy the pve or else everyone would have loved toa aswell. Some people rather farm 8platin in hib to buy 20k feathers than going to 2 galla raids...
Thu 16 May 2019 10:47 AM by grated
The charge changes are great fo QoL. The forum folk are a bit dramatic about it but what playstyle gas really been restricted? None. If this change were in place from the start very few would complain. People just don't like change in general.

Can we move on now?
Thu 16 May 2019 11:18 AM by Druth
Luluko wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 10:35 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 7:30 AM
.
- Epic PvE; the change has removed another reason for people to do Epic PvE. Not only have the change dropped a LOT of feathers from the resale, back into the game, but many people just lost a reason to farm for feathers.
people certainly need to do less raids now because they dont need those items anymore thats a + point for me since those epic dungeons are boring pretty fast I did like 35 tg raids and 2 galla raids, imho I think there should be repeatable rvr quests to get feathers or you get like 100 hundred for every completed pvp task.

I doubt many go to epic raids because they enjoy the pve or else everyone would have loved toa aswell. Some people rather farm 8platin in hib to buy 20k feathers than going to 2 galla raids...

Many people love PvE. You can have a TG raid with 100+ people, when it's done frontier doesn't suddenly explode with 100 mids going there.
But that's beside the point. Some people need and want to do TG, and with fewer needing to do it some will just stop playing if they can't complete their template.
Not seen a DR advertised in Mid for ages.

ToA had groundbreaking PvE, and stunning scenery.
People didn't hate ToA because of the PvE there, but because it was 100% needed to compete. We were not talking about the difference between 99% crafted gear with 100 abla reactives, vs. MP with 150 abla reactive. We are talking unpurgable CC, total immunity, +10% damage/range, etc etc...
And some raids took Mids 8 hours to complete, thats 8 hours where LD means no credit, even sticking could mean you lost stick and died with no credit.
Some artifacts were camped 24/7, and even if you could farm the plats to buy the artifact, you could not use it without credit.

But make no mistake, many people loved ToA, and daoc population did not start to die until EQ2 and later WoW launched.
In fact population regained some of it's numbers when ToA was launched.

And while my PvP part hated it, the PvE part in me absolutely loved it.
Thu 16 May 2019 12:25 PM by Luluko
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 11:18 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 10:35 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 7:30 AM
.
- Epic PvE; the change has removed another reason for people to do Epic PvE. Not only have the change dropped a LOT of feathers from the resale, back into the game, but many people just lost a reason to farm for feathers.
people certainly need to do less raids now because they dont need those items anymore thats a + point for me since those epic dungeons are boring pretty fast I did like 35 tg raids and 2 galla raids, imho I think there should be repeatable rvr quests to get feathers or you get like 100 hundred for every completed pvp task.

I doubt many go to epic raids because they enjoy the pve or else everyone would have loved toa aswell. Some people rather farm 8platin in hib to buy 20k feathers than going to 2 galla raids...

Many people love PvE. You can have a TG raid with 100+ people, when it's done frontier doesn't suddenly explode with 100 mids going there.
But that's beside the point. Some people need and want to do TG, and with fewer needing to do it some will just stop playing if they can't complete their template.
Not seen a DR advertised in Mid for ages.

ToA had groundbreaking PvE, and stunning scenery.
People didn't hate ToA because of the PvE there, but because it was 100% needed to compete. We were not talking about the difference between 99% crafted gear with 100 abla reactives, vs. MP with 150 abla reactive. We are talking unpurgable CC, total immunity, +10% damage/range, etc etc...
And some raids took Mids 8 hours to complete, thats 8 hours where LD means no credit, even sticking could mean you lost stick and died with no credit.
Some artifacts were camped 24/7, and even if you could farm the plats to buy the artifact, you could not use it without credit.

But make no mistake, many people loved ToA, and daoc population did not start to die until EQ2 and later WoW launched.
In fact population regained some of it's numbers when ToA was launched.

And while my PvP part hated it, the PvE part in me absolutely loved it.
feel free to prove me wrong that people enjoy doing tg/galla/sidi raids even on live they had enough farsight to let some scales drop from normal yellow/orange mobs in pve zones so people could farm their template solo instead and I rather do that and also get xp/cl xp on live than having to run through the same raid over and over again. Pve can be nice sometimes sure but if you always need a raid or a fg when you just want to do it when you have time is quite important and I dont really count those df mobs which drop some feathers since not all realms have access to that and the amount they drop is abysmal small.
Thu 16 May 2019 1:03 PM by kratoxin
The nerf to salvage drops is ridiculous... i went out to farm for over 1 hour and ended up with just under 100 bars... not to mention i didn't see anyone doing axehands at all last night which is kind of scary. With people that can't make Epic raids needing to farm gold is a real struggle now... making it kind of a bummer to play now.
Thu 16 May 2019 1:25 PM by PingGuy
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:22 PM
Well if you only consider the casuals which join keep raids to pve those then there is really no point in arguing thats not rvr thats pve. And as soon as the zergs start avoiding each other like they did on live the last few years because one site usually had twice the numbers or more than people will start logging out and maybe not come back. Casuals arent as attached to their toons like "hardcore" players which soloed one toon above rr 8+ you know how much time that is played? Prolly arround 25days/600hours and if then your playstyle gets nerfed even more since its already really hard to solo here because of no speed charges, well many people maybe think its not an issue if those solos leave and sure the server will go on for awhile. But those hardcore players also have friends they help which are casuals sometimes and if those dont get help for their temps or some potions made anymore by those hardcore players they will also leave. So both sites should be kept happy and those 25 more stats arent that much of a balance issue but if people build their class/specc arround those buffs and 20days of played + got now gimped for no real reason... then thats a little much for some people to accept. Especially since soloing is already quite frustrating with the constant zerging and adding.

I'm considering all playstyles here, and not looking to run any of them off. I didn't leave when they limited the task to 35+ to help the BG's, even though I disagreed with it. I don't want hardcores to leave either, and I do understand this change hits them where they live. In the end I think most of them will be just fine if they continue to play the way they always have, aggressively.

Hardcores and casuals appreciate their characters in different ways, but they are both important to a server like this. I have no doubt that the hardcores will feed me death after death in the FZ's even after I'm templated and running pots. With the way this server is setup, it's fun to go out and give it a shot, even when the odds are really bad. That makes for a target rich environment, which is what people looking for targets should care about most.
Thu 16 May 2019 1:31 PM by Druth
Luluko wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 12:25 PM
feel free to prove me wrong that people enjoy doing tg/galla/sidi raids even on live they had enough farsight to let some scales drop from normal yellow/orange mobs in pve zones so people could farm their template solo instead and I rather do that and also get xp/cl xp on live than having to run through the same raid over and over again. Pve can be nice sometimes sure but if you always need a raid or a fg when you just want to do it when you have time is quite important and I dont really count those df mobs which drop some feathers since not all realms have access to that and the amount they drop is abysmal small.

I can't prove you wrong
But you can't prove either that people didn't leave when they started to, excuse me, "dumb" down the system.
Thu 16 May 2019 1:39 PM by PingGuy
AngelRose wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 12:04 AM
This hard core player vs casual player discussion is just dumb. I was a casual player, but it was still somewhat easy to get a good template, with charges. If you chose to not get the charges, that wasn't casual..that was just lazy.

I am repeating myself, but all the devs needed to do was increase the charge time and decrease the costs. It was a good system that did not need to be re-invented. Yes, having to time the charges was mildly annoying, but annoyance would have decreased with the increased charge time

But....devs said I was wrong...it's their shard. /shrug

Call me lazy, I really don't care. I wanted to check out RvR so I did. It was fun and rewarding, so I kept going back. For a while I didn't know about charge items at all, and I was still leveling, but could still RvR, so I did. I don't raid, never have liked it much, so I wasn't going to do that. I was in the process of trying to trying to farm gold to buy items when this change went in. Still, the recharge costs would have been too steep for me to keep it up anyway. Now I don't have to worry about that, and will be running CF pots for more benefit with low upkeep costs.

AngelRose wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 12:04 AM
also - stop saying stealthers quit over this. Sins quit over this change. Most solo Archers quit a while ago. Broken archtype on this server

I agree.
Thu 16 May 2019 2:26 PM by Dominus
/agree... increase the timers as everyone suggested (QOL) problem solved.. lower the pricing wasnt really asked for, but ok. Seems like a super easy adjustment that would have made everyone happy I thought.
Fri 17 May 2019 6:27 AM by Sepplord
Dominus wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 2:26 PM
/agree... increase the timers as everyone suggested (QOL) problem solved.. lower the pricing wasnt really asked for, but ok. Seems like a super easy adjustment that would have made everyone happy I thought.

you really believe that there are changes that make "everyone" happy....after all these controversial opinions on the topic? seriously?
and you think that "supereasy adjustment" would be that solution?

and there were several people complaining about costs...
Tue 21 May 2019 10:05 AM by Erok
Though the changes have been mostly for the better, your post obviously has hit much truth. The population has generally been 300-500 less at any given time than it was a month ago, and it is continually declining. Yet they keep rolling out the nerfs, balancing the game as it should? be. At this pace, especially with the wow vanilla server coming out, this game won't last through the summer.
Wed 22 May 2019 1:41 AM by LedriTheThane
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:29 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:28 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:27 PM
Did i mention that i also didnt feel any power loss when i soloed on my thane and my skald?

Oh right i did feel a change. Less micromanagement. I actually liked that.

Then you are a casual player, nothing wrong with that--but you're wrong

For solo i definitley am a casual. My powergaming powers are invested into grp rvr.

But if you change something to better fit a casual approach, isnt that something that helps to draw in more people?

I personaly am all for offending that one min maxer, if i can please 5 casuals with that change.....

DAoC is not a casual MMORPG, not sure why you would play casual in solo regardless. Having some sort of min/maxing aspect in MMO's keeps the thrill alive and keeps it interesting. Not sure why so many want to simplify it. Plus, as you said, you are casual when you solo, therefore you don't deserve to have an opinion on a change that greatly affects soloing.
Wed 22 May 2019 1:43 AM by LedriTheThane
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 3:04 PM
The idea that this hurt soloers is a fallacy. This hurt people who used as many charges as possible, as often as possible. That's it, period.

I'm a soloer, and this helped me, because it had nothing to do with soloing, and everything to do with hardcore versus casual. Welcome to a more even playing field. Stop pretending you aren't complaining about how it's suddenly more even.

It was always an even playing field, you were lazy and didn't want to put in the effort. It wasn't much effort either to obtain everything necessary for solo RVR, but now it's ruined. Regardless, when a ton of soloers quit the game, that alone shows it is an issue. Not a fallacy, get a brain.
Wed 22 May 2019 1:43 AM by LedriTheThane
Erok wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 10:05 AM
Though the changes have been mostly for the better, your post obviously has hit much truth. The population has generally been 300-500 less at any given time than it was a month ago, and it is continually declining. Yet they keep rolling out the nerfs, balancing the game as it should? be. At this pace, especially with the wow vanilla server coming out, this game won't last through the summer.

Will be very ironic to see Classic WoW kill the population.
Wed 22 May 2019 1:44 AM by Sektor
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:41 AM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:29 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:28 PM
Then you are a casual player, nothing wrong with that--but you're wrong

For solo i definitley am a casual. My powergaming powers are invested into grp rvr.

But if you change something to better fit a casual approach, isnt that something that helps to draw in more people?

I personaly am all for offending that one min maxer, if i can please 5 casuals with that change.....

DAoC is not a casual MMORPG, not sure why you would play casual in solo regardless. Having some sort of min/maxing aspect in MMO's keeps the thrill alive and keeps it interesting. Not sure why so many want to simplify it. Plus, as you said, you are casual when you solo, therefore you don't deserve to have an opinion on a change that greatly affects soloing.

Did I see you in the official daoc discord making kissy faces at the devs the other day? That might be a different LedriTheThane I suppose.
Wed 22 May 2019 1:47 AM by LedriTheThane
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:44 AM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:41 AM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 1:29 PM
For solo i definitley am a casual. My powergaming powers are invested into grp rvr.

But if you change something to better fit a casual approach, isnt that something that helps to draw in more people?

I personaly am all for offending that one min maxer, if i can please 5 casuals with that change.....

DAoC is not a casual MMORPG, not sure why you would play casual in solo regardless. Having some sort of min/maxing aspect in MMO's keeps the thrill alive and keeps it interesting. Not sure why so many want to simplify it. Plus, as you said, you are casual when you solo, therefore you don't deserve to have an opinion on a change that greatly affects soloing.

Did I see you in the official daoc discord making kissy faces at the devs the other day? That might be a different LedriTheThane I suppose.

Would love to see a screenshot of that kissy face nonsense that you brought up. Since you know, that's a lie lmao. I was in there the other day talking about how I'm glad they announced official classic/shrouded isles/housing servers and that they should push that to the forefront of their plans instead of their proposed endless conquest and catacombs revamp plans. As if I'd make "kissy" faces anyways considering how much I've criticized broadsword as of late on stream too.
Wed 22 May 2019 1:58 AM by Sektor
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:47 AM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:44 AM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:41 AM
DAoC is not a casual MMORPG, not sure why you would play casual in solo regardless. Having some sort of min/maxing aspect in MMO's keeps the thrill alive and keeps it interesting. Not sure why so many want to simplify it. Plus, as you said, you are casual when you solo, therefore you don't deserve to have an opinion on a change that greatly affects soloing.

Did I see you in the official daoc discord making kissy faces at the devs the other day? That might be a different LedriTheThane I suppose.

Would love to see a screenshot of that kissy face nonsense that you brought up. Since you know, that's a lie lmao. I was in there the other day talking about how I'm glad they announced official classic/shrouded isles/housing servers and that they should push that to the forefront of their plans instead of their proposed endless conquest and catacombs revamp plans. As if I'd make "kissy" faces anyways considering how much I've criticized broadsword as of late on stream too.

To be fair they were kissy faces in substance not literal 😁. At least you’re honest.
Thu 23 May 2019 3:42 PM by LedriTheThane
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:58 AM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:47 AM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:44 AM
Did I see you in the official daoc discord making kissy faces at the devs the other day? That might be a different LedriTheThane I suppose.

Would love to see a screenshot of that kissy face nonsense that you brought up. Since you know, that's a lie lmao. I was in there the other day talking about how I'm glad they announced official classic/shrouded isles/housing servers and that they should push that to the forefront of their plans instead of their proposed endless conquest and catacombs revamp plans. As if I'd make "kissy" faces anyways considering how much I've criticized broadsword as of late on stream too.

To be fair they were kissy faces in substance not literal 😁. At least you’re honest.

Because why wouldn't I be? I have nothing to hide. I'd much prefer play an official version than a freeshard. I think anyone would. Weird how you make up dumb shit and then pull back when called out.
Thu 23 May 2019 3:43 PM by Sektor
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 3:42 PM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:58 AM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:47 AM
Would love to see a screenshot of that kissy face nonsense that you brought up. Since you know, that's a lie lmao. I was in there the other day talking about how I'm glad they announced official classic/shrouded isles/housing servers and that they should push that to the forefront of their plans instead of their proposed endless conquest and catacombs revamp plans. As if I'd make "kissy" faces anyways considering how much I've criticized broadsword as of late on stream too.

To be fair they were kissy faces in substance not literal 😁. At least you’re honest.

Because why wouldn't I be? I have nothing to hide. I'd much prefer play an official version than a freeshard. I think anyone would. Weird how you make up dumb shit and then pull back when called out.

I didn’t make anything up... You should work on your reading comprehension. You confirmed everything I said.
Thu 23 May 2019 3:47 PM by LedriTheThane
Sektor wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 3:43 PM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 3:42 PM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:58 AM
To be fair they were kissy faces in substance not literal 😁. At least you’re honest.

Because why wouldn't I be? I have nothing to hide. I'd much prefer play an official version than a freeshard. I think anyone would. Weird how you make up dumb shit and then pull back when called out.

I didn’t make anything up... You should work on your reading comprehension. You confirmed everything I said.

"Did I see you in the official daoc discord making kissy faces at the devs the other day? "

This literally implies sucking up to the devs and acting all nice and sweet with them. The hell else is it supposed to me? Some sort of different elaborate passive aggressive bullshit? Please explain how it's my reading comprehension, because if you don't, it confirmed everything that I said. Plus what I said doesn't confirm anything either lmao. You're making shit up, must be a common thing for you IRL too.
Thu 23 May 2019 3:49 PM by Sektor
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 3:47 PM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 3:43 PM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 3:42 PM
Because why wouldn't I be? I have nothing to hide. I'd much prefer play an official version than a freeshard. I think anyone would. Weird how you make up dumb shit and then pull back when called out.

I didn’t make anything up... You should work on your reading comprehension. You confirmed everything I said.

"Did I see you in the official daoc discord making kissy faces at the devs the other day? "

This literally implies sucking up to the devs and acting all nice and sweet with them. The hell else is it supposed to me? Some sort of different elaborate passive aggressive bullshit? Please explain how it's my reading comprehension, because if you don't, it confirmed everything that I said. Plus what I said doesn't confirm anything either lmao. You're making shit up, must be a common thing for you IRL too.

You actually were doing everything you are saying. I see I must have triggered you and now you’re embarrassed attacking me irl. Just makes you look petty as usual. Great job 😁
Fri 24 May 2019 2:16 PM by PingGuy
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:43 AM
It was always an even playing field, you were lazy and didn't want to put in the effort. It wasn't much effort either to obtain everything necessary for solo RVR, but now it's ruined. Regardless, when a ton of soloers quit the game, that alone shows it is an issue. Not a fallacy, get a brain.

No, it was not. People who used charges and juggled every 2 minutes to keep them up counted on being more powerful than many of their opponents. They were willing to do something annoying to get an advantage. That includes extra farming for upkeep costs, and keeping the charges running. Not everybody was willing to do that, which was the point of the change.

You are right about one thing, it isn't much effort to obtain everything necessary for RvR. But buying a charge item isn't the same as committing a percentage of ones playtime to farming for upkeep, and worrying every two minutes about managing the juggle. You are just mad that you lost your advantage, and I get that. Maybe I'm lazy, or maybe you're neurotic about winning. It doesn't matter, the devs looked at the data and made a change that benefited a section of the playerbase. I'd guess that it wasn't a small section, or they wouldn't have done it.
Wed 29 May 2019 9:20 AM by Erok
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 2:16 PM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:43 AM
It was always an even playing field, you were lazy and didn't want to put in the effort. It wasn't much effort either to obtain everything necessary for solo RVR, but now it's ruined. Regardless, when a ton of soloers quit the game, that alone shows it is an issue. Not a fallacy, get a brain.

No, it was not. People who used charges and juggled every 2 minutes to keep them up counted on being more powerful than many of their opponents. They were willing to do something annoying to get an advantage. That includes extra farming for upkeep costs, and keeping the charges running. Not everybody was willing to do that, which was the point of the change.

You are right about one thing, it isn't much effort to obtain everything necessary for RvR. But buying a charge item isn't the same as committing a percentage of ones playtime to farming for upkeep, and worrying every two minutes about managing the juggle. You are just mad that you lost your advantage, and I get that. Maybe I'm lazy, or maybe you're neurotic about winning. It doesn't matter, the devs looked at the data and made a change that benefited a section of the playerbase. I'd guess that it wasn't a small section, or they wouldn't have done it.

It really wasn't that hard to make the amount of gold necessary to charge items for rvr, though I agree it was pretty annoying keeping up with them. I am solo about 40-50 percent of the time I play and I really haven't noticed much of a difference in my play other than swing speed, but everyone else was nerfed the same. These changes really haven't bothered me significantly enough for me to stop playing, in general my game has been the same. Sadly, the time I play at is one of the lower population times due to my location and hours that I work and family time. Before these nerfs, there were at least 1000 people on when I was playing, now there might be 500...and this literally happened right after the nerfs / salvage nerfs. In a 6 week period the population has been halved, and when I've logged on during prime times, that also seems to be true. While I honestly don't see a way to spike the population back up, completely denying that this had a huge negative impact on the game is quite naive.
Wed 29 May 2019 9:41 AM by Sepplord
Erok wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:20 AM
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 2:16 PM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 1:43 AM
It was always an even playing field, you were lazy and didn't want to put in the effort. It wasn't much effort either to obtain everything necessary for solo RVR, but now it's ruined. Regardless, when a ton of soloers quit the game, that alone shows it is an issue. Not a fallacy, get a brain.

No, it was not. People who used charges and juggled every 2 minutes to keep them up counted on being more powerful than many of their opponents. They were willing to do something annoying to get an advantage. That includes extra farming for upkeep costs, and keeping the charges running. Not everybody was willing to do that, which was the point of the change.

You are right about one thing, it isn't much effort to obtain everything necessary for RvR. But buying a charge item isn't the same as committing a percentage of ones playtime to farming for upkeep, and worrying every two minutes about managing the juggle. You are just mad that you lost your advantage, and I get that. Maybe I'm lazy, or maybe you're neurotic about winning. It doesn't matter, the devs looked at the data and made a change that benefited a section of the playerbase. I'd guess that it wasn't a small section, or they wouldn't have done it.

It really wasn't that hard to make the amount of gold necessary to charge items for rvr, though I agree it was pretty annoying keeping up with them. I am solo about 40-50 percent of the time I play and I really haven't noticed much of a difference in my play other than swing speed, but everyone else was nerfed the same. These changes really haven't bothered me significantly enough for me to stop playing, in general my game has been the same. Sadly, the time I play at is one of the lower population times due to my location and hours that I work and family time. Before these nerfs, there were at least 1000 people on when I was playing, now there might be 500...and this literally happened right after the nerfs / salvage nerfs. In a 6 week period the population has been halved, and when I've logged on during prime times, that also seems to be true. While I honestly don't see a way to spike the population back up, completely denying that this had a huge negative impact on the game is quite naive.

singling out an issue that happened and not looking at multiple other things that happened at the same is naive too.
Just because you dislike the change, that doesn'T mean it must be the root cause for stuff happening at the same time. The DDoS for example has decreased availabilty and quality of playing time IMMENSLY for most people. Some not being able to play at all, some LDing 5-10times per hour, or even more, etc...
I am not saying the salvage nerf had no impact, that would be just as dumb to claim. There is almost no way to gauge the size of the impact by us players that don't have access to more gameserver/playerbase data
Wed 29 May 2019 10:28 AM by Erok
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:41 AM
Erok wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:20 AM
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 2:16 PM
No, it was not. People who used charges and juggled every 2 minutes to keep them up counted on being more powerful than many of their opponents. They were willing to do something annoying to get an advantage. That includes extra farming for upkeep costs, and keeping the charges running. Not everybody was willing to do that, which was the point of the change.

You are right about one thing, it isn't much effort to obtain everything necessary for RvR. But buying a charge item isn't the same as committing a percentage of ones playtime to farming for upkeep, and worrying every two minutes about managing the juggle. You are just mad that you lost your advantage, and I get that. Maybe I'm lazy, or maybe you're neurotic about winning. It doesn't matter, the devs looked at the data and made a change that benefited a section of the playerbase. I'd guess that it wasn't a small section, or they wouldn't have done it.

It really wasn't that hard to make the amount of gold necessary to charge items for rvr, though I agree it was pretty annoying keeping up with them. I am solo about 40-50 percent of the time I play and I really haven't noticed much of a difference in my play other than swing speed, but everyone else was nerfed the same. These changes really haven't bothered me significantly enough for me to stop playing, in general my game has been the same. Sadly, the time I play at is one of the lower population times due to my location and hours that I work and family time. Before these nerfs, there were at least 1000 people on when I was playing, now there might be 500...and this literally happened right after the nerfs / salvage nerfs. In a 6 week period the population has been halved, and when I've logged on during prime times, that also seems to be true. While I honestly don't see a way to spike the population back up, completely denying that this had a huge negative impact on the game is quite naive.

singling out an issue that happened and not looking at multiple other things that happened at the same is naive too.
Just because you dislike the change, that doesn'T mean it must be the root cause for stuff happening at the same time. The DDoS for example has decreased availabilty and quality of playing time IMMENSLY for most people. Some not being able to play at all, some LDing 5-10times per hour, or even more, etc...
I am not saying the salvage nerf had no impact, that would be just as dumb to claim. There is almost no way to gauge the size of the impact by us players that don't have access to more gameserver/playerbase data

You're right, I did not address the DDoS being an issue as well...and it certainly was. It was timed poorly with the changes....but like I said, the changes really have not had an effect on me either way. In my post I didn't even say I disliked the changes, just that I noticed the effect of them on the population. People do not like being nerfed, it's really as simple as that. You can continue to be in support of the multiple heavy nerfs if you wish, and honestly I think they are fine and even better for the gameplay. But like I said, this server is pretty dead half of the day, and it's significantly lower than it used to be the other half of the day. There have been numerous players who have been very loud in the quitting because of them, and they are probably the one's guilty of the DDoS attacks. Simply telling people to stfu about whining when major nerfs happen and continue with business as usual is the main reason this server has lost 40% of it's playerbase in the last 6 weeks. Pretending that it's anything other than that is illogical.
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