Uthgard's Biggest Mistake- Not enough QoL / Phoenix's Biggest Mistake - Too much QoL

Started 12 Feb 2019
by Mac
in Tavern
The Phoenix staff have done many things really well. The first month's player population is a result of this. /salute the staff and player community. However, IMO, the easy mode end game will be bad for the long term population. Let's discuss. Please focus on the views expressed in the posts in this thread and don't attack the PLAYER who shared those views.

Uthgard's Staff's biggest Mistake: They didn't listen to their players. Uthgard was set up to be a near prefect implementation of classic DAoC as it was in 2003. The issue with that is the Mythic had put in many speed bumps to slow the players down so that it required many month's of playing to achieve goals. That made sense in a game that had monthly fees. However, Uthgard was a freeshard and didn't need all those speed bumps. Many players asked the staff to add some Quality of Life (QoL) changes to allow them to quickly get thru the leveling aspects of the game so they could get to the fun part (RvR) sooner. Staff stuck to their vision of a true patch 1.65 implementation and made very few QoL changes. So, a LOT of players stopped playing. They pointed that in 2016 they didn't have the amount time to devote to gaming as they had in 2003. The game lost most of the casual players and, when those lower Realm Rank players left, the high Realm Ranks players quit too. If most of the 'sheep' move on, the Wolves do too.

The Phoenix staff were well aware of the mistakes Uthgard made and vowed to listen to the players. And they have! Almost all QoL changes players have requested have been made. It only takes days to achieve on Phoenix what took months to achieve on Uthgard! BUT, I fear they listened too much to player requests. some were valid requests to remove tedium, such as slow XP gains, slow horse rides, few portal points, etc. Some however, were requests to play the game in easy mode. IMO, Phoenix is too easy and that won't keep the players coming back day after day for months / years. If the game is too easy, there isn't much satisfaction in achieving goals.

Dr Richard Barttle figured this out long ago. Here's a post From 2017 That I posted to Uthgard's forums:


Post by Gil » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:11 am

We already know that most people prefer cake over veggies. No poll needed to determine that. However, Uthgard wouldn't convert to an all cake all the time server in any case. Those servers have been tried and never lasted for very long. It would appear that if a goal (such as leveling to 50) is too easy to achieve then it has little value (for most people). The only achievements that most people value are these that aren't easily accomplished. So, for most people, if there is little invested in getting to 50, they won't value that character and therefore will move on more quickly than if they felt some level of accomplishment.

See this thread from January 2017 for more insight on why the Devs need to stay firm with their vision for their server.

Dr Richard Bartle got it right and early too! This is an article he wrote and presented back in 2004 (Yes that WAS the time WoW was launched). Now you may be wondering why I necro'd Richard's old rant... Well, he's one of the smartest game designers of all time so he does have insights for us AND right now on these forums we see many players trying to get the Uthgard staff to redesign the game. Most of the suggestions / requests I've seen would make some aspects of the game or service better for the short term but would be bad for the long term.

Blue is wise to stick to HIS vision of the game / service for the long term good. (Yes, he COULD find a way to be more polite to the folks telling him his baby is ugly. Would you?)

"Soapbox: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really!
by Richard Bartle [Design]


November 3, 2004

[Author's note: What I'm calling virtual worlds, you might call MMORPGs or MMOGs or (if you're a real old-timer) MUDs. Macro replace with your preference accordingly. Got that? Then I'll begin…]

Introduction


Virtual worlds are being designed by know-nothing newbies, and there's not a damned thing anyone can do about it. I don't mean newbie designers, I mean newbie players - first timers. They're dictating design through a twisted "survival of the not-quite-fittest" form of natural selection that will lead to a long-term decay in quality, guaranteed. If you think some of today's offerings are garbage, just you wait…

Yeah, yeah, you want some justification for this assertion. Even though I'm in Soapbox mode, I can see that, so I will explain - only not just yet. First, I'm going to make four general points that I can string together to build my case. Bear with me on this…


The Newbie Stream

Here's a quote from Victorian author Charles Dickens:

Annual income £20/-/-, annual expenditure £19/19/6, result happiness.
Annual income £20/-/-, annual expenditure £20/-/6, result misery.
Annual income £0, annual expenditure £20,000,000, result There.com.

OK, so maybe he didn't actually write that last line.

What Dickens was actually saying is that, so long as you don't lose more than you gain, things are good. In our particular case, we're not talking olde English money, we're talking newbies, although ultimately, the two amount to one and the same thing.

Now I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news, people, but here goes anyway: even for the most compelling of virtual worlds, players will eventually leave. Don't blame me, I didn't invent reality.

If oldbies leave, newbies are needed to replace them. The newbies must arrive at the same rate (or better) that the oldbies leave; otherwise, the population of the virtual world will decline until eventually no-one will be left to play it.

Point #1: Virtual worlds live or die by their ability to attract newbies

Newbie Preconceptions

Another quote, this time from the 1989 movie Field of Dreams:

If we build it, they will come.

Well, maybe if you're an Iowa corn farmer who hears voices inside your head telling you to construct a baseball stadium, but otherwise…

A virtual world can be fully functioning and free of bugs, but still be pretty well devoid of players. There are plenty of non-gameplay reasons why this could happen, but I'm going to focus on the most basic: lack of appeal. Some virtual worlds just aren't attractive to newbies. There are some wonderfully original, joyous virtual worlds out there. They're exquisitely balanced, rich in depth, abundant in breadth, alive with subtleties, and full of wise, interesting, fun people who engender an atmosphere of mystique and marvel without compare. Newbies would love these virtual worlds, but they're not going to play them.

Why not? Because they're all text. Newbies don't do text.

Newbies come to virtual worlds with a set of preconceptions acquired from other virtual worlds; or, failing that, from other computer games; or, failing that, from gut instinct. They will not consider virtual worlds that confront these expectations if there are others around that don't.

Put another way, if a virtual world has a feature that offends newbies, the developers will have to remove that feature or they won't get any newbies. This is irrespective of what the oldbies think: they may adore a feature, but if newbies don't like it then (under point #1) eventually there won't be anyone left to adore it.

Point #2: Newbies won't play a virtual world that has a major feature they don't like.

Not-So-Newbies

Here's another quote (kind of), from a private study of 1,100 players by the Themis Group. Themis's researchers asked veterans of 3 or more virtual worlds how many months they'd spent in their first one and how many months they'd spent in their second one. Dividing the second figure by the first, we get these averages for time spent in the second virtual world compared to the first:

EverQuest 80%
Ultima Online 70%
Asheron's Call 70%
Dark Age of Camelot 55%
Anarchy Online 55%

Players spend considerably less time in their second virtual world than they do in their first. Why is this?

Well, the first virtual world that someone gets into is very special to them. It's a magical, enchanting, never-to-be-repeated experience. You thought it was only you who looked back wistfully on your early days like that? Nah, it's everyone.

This has consequences. There used to be a virtual world called NeverWinter Nights, unrelated to the BioWare RPG, on AOL. When it was closed down, its refugees descended on Meridian 59. They immediately wanted M59 to incorporate every piece of NWN functionality that they could remember.

In general, players view all their subsequent virtual worlds in the light cast from their first one. They will demand that features from their first world be added to their current world, even if those very features were partly responsible for why they left the first world. They'll say they hate treadmills, but if their first experience was in a virtual world with treadmills, then they'll gravitate towards other virtual worlds with treadmills, all the while still hating them.

There's a long explanation for this, to do with the search for identity, which I won't delve into here because you only need to know that players do behave this way, not why (that's a different rant). Read my book (Designing Virtual Worlds) if you want the full story.

Point #3: Players judge all virtual worlds as a reflection of the one they first got into.

Short-Termism

No quote this time.

When a virtual world changes (as it must), all but its most experienced players will consider the change on its short-term merits only. They look at how the change affects them, personally, right now. They will only make mention of possible long-term effects to help buttress a short-termist argument. They don't care that things will be majorly better for them later if things are minorly worse for them today - it's only the now that matters.

Why is this? I've no idea. Well, I do have an idea, but not one I can back up, so I'll keep quiet about it. The fact is, players do behave like this all the time, and it would only take a cursory scan of any forum after patch day for you to convince yourself, if you don't believe me.

This short-termist attitude has two outcomes. Firstly, something short-term good but long-term bad is hard for developers to remove, because players are mainly in favor of it. Secondly, something short-term bad but long-term good is hard to keep because players are mainly not in favor of it.

Design that is short-term good but long-term bad I call "poor". Virtual worlds are primarily a mixture of good and poor design, because the other two possibilities (outright bad and short-term bad, long-term good) either aren't implemented or are swiftly removed. Good design keeps players; poor design drives them away (when the short term becomes the long term and the game becomes unfun).

Point #4: Many players will think some poor design choices are good.

Summary

OK, so we now have the four points I need to launch into my tirade. These are:

Point #1: Virtual worlds live or die by their ability to attract newbies
Point #2: Newbies won't play a virtual world that has a major feature they don't like.
Point #3: Players judge all virtual worlds as a reflection of the one they first got into.
Point #4: Many players will think some poor design choices are good.

I can now construct a line of reasoning that supports my initial assertion.

The Newbie Induction

Under point #4, players will eventually quit a virtual world that has poor features. Under point #3, however, they won't necessarily recognize that a feature which caused them to leave was indeed poor. Under point #2, they won't play those virtual worlds that lack this feature. Under point #1, those virtual worlds that do lack the feature - that is, those with the better design - will die through dearth of newbies. Any absolute newbies, for whom this is their first virtual world, will be educated to believe that this is how things are meant to be, thus starting the whole cycle again. Q.E.D.

The normal rules of evolution by which computer games operate propagate good design genes from one to the next. Each generation of game takes the best mutations from the previous generation and adds to them.

Virtual worlds also propagate good genes, but they propagate poor ones more readily. The best virtual worlds don't pass their design genes around much because of their high retention rate: "Why would I quit when what I want is right here?". Poor design genes cause players to leave sooner, so it's these features that wind up being must-haves for the next generation of products. This leads to a bizarre situation: for a new virtual world to succeed, it has to have the same features that caused its antecedents to fail..!

You're not convinced, huh? OK, here are two of examples of the theory in action, one old and one new.

Example 1 (Old): Permanent Death

If characters that died stayed dead, it would open up all kinds of very convenient doors for virtual world design:

It prevents early-adopter players from gaining an iron grip on positions of power.
It re-uses content effectively, because players view same-level encounters from different angles using different characters.
It's the default fiction for real life.
It promotes role-play, because players aren't stuck with the same, tired old character the whole time.
It validates players' sense of achievement, because a high-level character means a high-level player is behind it.
Many designers and experienced players would love to see a form of PD in their virtual world, but it's not going to happen. Newbies wouldn't play such a game (under points #2, #3 and #4), therefore eventually neither would anyone else (point #1).

PD is short-term bad, long-term good: rejected.

Example 2 (new): Instancing

Instancing looks very appealing on the face of it: groups of friends can play together without interference in relative tranquillity. What's not to love?

The thing is, this is not what virtual worlds are about. How can you have any impact on a world if you're only using it as a portal to a first-person shooter? How do you interact with people if they're battened down in an inaccessible pocket universe? Where's the sense of achievement, of making a difference, of being someone?

Most players don't see it that way, though.

Newbies see it as familiar - "fantasy Counterstrike, cool!" (point #2). They don't know what it means for their long-term enjoyment (point #4). Of course, they eventually will learn what it means - boredom and disenchantment - but even so, they probably won't connect the effect with the cause. They'll just go looking for another virtual world that features instancing (point #3). Older-era players will perhaps initially avoid anything with instancing because their first love didn't have it (point #3), but they'll probably try it eventually because (point #4) hey, maybe it's that missing piece that will give them the sense of closure they crave?

Thus, instancing will get locked into the paradigm. New virtual worlds that don't have it will get fewer players than those that do have it, even though they have the better design.

Instancing is short-term good, long-term bad: accepted.

Analysis

It's not just permanent death, it's not just instancing: it's teleportation, it's banks, it's non-drop objects - it's everything that makes sense in some contexts but not in all (or even most) contexts.

Player: You don't have teleporting! How can I rejoin my group if I miss a session?
Designer: Well gee, maybe by omitting teleportation I'm kinda dropping a hint that you can have a meaningful gaming experience, without always having to group with the same people of the same level and run a treadmill the whole time?
Player: Are you NUTS? I want to play with my friends, and I want to play with them RIGHT NOW!
Designer: But how are you ever going to make new friends? How -
Player: Are you listening? RIGHT NOW!
Designer: (Sigh)

Virtual worlds are becoming diluted by poor design decisions that can't be undone. We're getting de-evolution - our future is in effect being drawn up by newbies who (being newbies) are clueless. Regular computer games don't have this problem.

The market for regular computer games is driven by the hardcore. The hardcore finishes product faster than newbies, and therefore buys new product faster than newbies. The hardcore understands design implications better than newbies. They won't buy a game with features they can see are poor; they select games with good design genes. Because of this, games which are good are rewarded by higher sales than games which are bad.

In virtual worlds, the hardcore either wanders from one to the next, trying to recapture the experience of their first experience or they never left in the first place. Furthermore, in today's flat-fee universe, the hardcore spends the same amount of money as everyone else: developers aren't rewarded for appealing to the cognoscenti, except maybe through word of mouth that always comes with caveats (because of point #3).

Possible solutions

I'm not completely pessimistic here; there are ways the cycle can be broken, mainly by attacking points #2 and #3 (that is, by overcoming prejudices concerning what "should" be in a virtual world). Here are half a dozen hopes for the future:

Innovation. If evolution doesn't work, maybe revolution will? A virtual world different enough that it doesn't map onto players' existing experiences may attract newbies and oldbies alike. Of course, there's no guarantee that the new paradigm won't itself be short-term good, long-term bad…
Marketing. People can sometimes be persuaded to overcome their preconceptions. Even a text-based virtual world could become a monster hit if it had the right licence and was advertised to the right group of people. Unfortunately, marketing costs money.
Cross-fertilization. If no poor features are ever added, point #4 becomes redundant. How do you know that a proposed feature is genuinely good, though? Simple - there are two traditions of virtual worlds (West and East) so you cherry-pick the best ideas from the other one. You speak Korean, right?
Works of art. Virtual world design involves much craft, but at root it's art. A designer makes decisions based on how they feel things ought to be. Players will eventually pick up on the differences and play a new virtual world just because they like the designer's previous work: Raph Koster, Brad McQuaid and Richard Garriott already have more creative freedom than first-time designers. Point #3 evaporates! If only designing a virtual world didn't take so long…
Time may heal. If you wait long enough that people forget why they ever objected to something, that something can come back. Fashions change, and who knows what the newbies of 2024 will think? Good ideas will always get a second chance to enter the paradigm, it's just that "wait a quarter of your life for it to happen" thing that's a little depressing.
Growing maturity. Perhaps the best hope for the future is the growing maturity of the player base. First-time newbies will always assert the supremacy of their first virtual world, but oldbies who have been through the mill enough will realise that some of the features they've been taking for granted are actually counter-productive. If they're around in sufficient numbers, we may see virtual worlds appearing that do everything right and very little wrong, removing point #4 and leading us into a golden age. I can dream…
Conclusion

Virtual worlds are under evolutionary pressure to promote design features that, while not exactly bad, are nevertheless poor. Each succeeding generation absorbs these into the virtual world paradigm, and introduces new poor features for the next generation to take on board. The result is that virtual world design follows a downward path of not-quite-good-enough, leading ultimately to an erosion of what virtual worlds are.

Fortunately, there are a number of processes at work that have the potential to arrest this descent. Thus, although the future of virtual worlds may look disappointing, it's not completely bleak.

Besides, for the purist there will always be text MUDs."
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:55 PM by Ceen
As long as there are 4k players and 1k+ in the RvR zones, there is no mistake :p
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:27 PM by Afuldan
Everyone seems to forget that casuals are the targetted audience. At no time on any orher server could a casual like myself have two TG items and a dragon item in a finished template, in under three weeks from 1 to templated.

This makes me want to stay and do more. This has gotten me encouraged to try rvr past rr5. I want to make more characters and template them as well
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:35 PM by kedelin
Afuldan wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:27 PM
Everyone seems to forget that casuals are the targetted audience. At no time on any orher server could a casual like myself have two TG items and a dragon item in a finished template, in under three weeks from 1 to templated.

This makes me want to stay and do more. This has gotten me encouraged to try rvr past rr5. I want to make more characters and template them as well

This right here... and as long as people keep rolling alts and there is always people leveling the server will be healthy... Most people dont get in set group or have set 8man thus leading to the need to have a few classes if they ever wanna rvr... some people dont like rvr that muchand will only go with a /gu or /as zerg... but those people are also ones who love the pve side and enjoy leveling alts, farming and the epic mob raids
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:42 PM by Mac
I agree totally If the population stays above 4K over all with 1K in RvR zones than the short term good is working! I Hope it stays there but fear it won't, Time will tell. If we still have 1K in RvR by summer 2019, I will consider the 'give em everything they ask for' strategy to have worked!
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:45 PM by Durgrim
read about 20% of Mac's stolen post. Was enough to get the gist out of his intentions.
I would suggest you re-think who the target audience is for Phoenix. We are not talking about ANY MMO being hyped or newly developed. The players here play on this server for one solely purpose:
classic daoc.

These two words -classic daoc- annihilate all given reasons so far for being pessimistic on things. Yes, once the first orgasm is gone, im pretty sure more than 2k players will remain.
Actually the playerbase increased since launch
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:46 PM by Rubin
please, not you again.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:01 PM by Mac
Durgrim wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:45 PM
read about 20% of Mac's stolen post. Was enough to get the gist out of his intentions.
I would suggest you re-think who the target audience is for Phoenix. We are not talking about ANY MMO being hyped or newly developed. The players here play on this server for one solely purpose:
classic daoc.

These two words -classic daoc- annihilate all given reasons so far for being pessimistic on things. Yes, once the first orgasm is gone, im pretty sure more than 2k players will remain.
Actually the playerbase increased since launch

This is VERY different from 'classic DAoC'. That doesn't make it wrong ofc. And how can you say I stole the Post? I quoted and credited Dr Barttle.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:03 PM by Durgrim
Mac wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:01 PM
Durgrim wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:45 PM
read about 20% of Mac's stolen post. Was enough to get the gist out of his intentions.
I would suggest you re-think who the target audience is for Phoenix. We are not talking about ANY MMO being hyped or newly developed. The players here play on this server for one solely purpose:
classic daoc.

These two words -classic daoc- annihilate all given reasons so far for being pessimistic on things. Yes, once the first orgasm is gone, im pretty sure more than 2k players will remain.
Actually the playerbase increased since launch

This is VERY different from 'classic DAoC'. That doesn't make it wrong ofc. And how can you say I stole the Post? I quoted and credited Dr Barttle.

true. Replace 'stolen' with 'borrowed' - but that's not the point here atm
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:06 PM by Sepplord
Intresting read, i have seen excerpts already but never the whole thing. Thanks

I am unsure what to take from it now though regarding Phoenix

Ceen wrote: As long as there are 4k players and 1k+ in the RvR zones, there is no mistake :p

Not neccessarily true, it could be much more.
But i agree, it currently looks much better than I (and probably others too) have anticipated. The total number isn't even that important, the fact that the population grew over the first month instead of declining is very promising.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:19 PM by Mac
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
Intresting read, i have seen excerpts already but never the whole thing. Thanks

I am unsure what to take from it now though regarding Phoenix

Ceen wrote: As long as there are 4k players and 1k+ in the RvR zones, there is no mistake :p

Not neccessarily true, it could be much more.
But i agree, it currently looks much better than I (and probably others too) have anticipated. The total number isn't even that important, the fact that the population grew over the first month instead of declining is very promising.

Here's the reference I was trying to make. A WoWified easy mode DAoC isn't really 'classic DAoC'. Phoenix have given in to player requests to make the game easy mode. That is good for the short term but is likely to be bad for the long term.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:40 PM by XLGrandma
Mac is a straight Uthgard troll trying to stir the pot cause his server only has about 50 people left on it. Phoenix nailed it, which is why the population has grown over the past month.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:45 PM by Zansobar
Mac wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:19 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
Intresting read, i have seen excerpts already but never the whole thing. Thanks

I am unsure what to take from it now though regarding Phoenix

Ceen wrote: As long as there are 4k players and 1k+ in the RvR zones, there is no mistake :p

Not neccessarily true, it could be much more.
But i agree, it currently looks much better than I (and probably others too) have anticipated. The total number isn't even that important, the fact that the population grew over the first month instead of declining is very promising.

Here's the reference I was trying to make. A WoWified easy mode DAoC isn't really 'classic DAoC'. Phoenix have given in to player requests to make the game easy mode. That is good for the short term but is likely to be bad for the long term.

If "hardmode" was good for the longevity of the game then Uthgard would be booming...but it's sitting at 30 players online while Phoenix has 4k+.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM by gruenesschaf
Too tedious is bad for obvious reasons but everything being too easy is also not great. The longer it takes to achieve some goal, be it level 50 or equipment or some RR, the longer people will be engaged given that it doesn't start to feel tedious / is fun.
However, making templating and leveling a rather fast process encourages people to get multiple chars ready which again has a positive effect on the rvr as people can just swap to different classes as needed while also keeping the raids going and everything else a character would need.

I think the only big mistake we made when it comes to progression speed is with the price point of the BP reskins, they should probably have been 10x or more than what they are now.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:59 PM by PingGuy
Let's not pretend that we know how Phoenix will be doing in a year. I think we all want it to be doing well. Discussing how that may or may not come about isn't hurting anything.

I don't think Phoenix has too much QoL, but I'm pretty casual and that stuff makes it playable for me. I gave up on the original DAoC around level 30 because it was slow, and I didn't have much interest in PvP, nor did I have a concept of how RvR could be exciting. Yet I slogged through EQ when there were still hell levels, and I've gone back to it many times over the years, enduring the grind because there was something there that I found fun and that made the grind worth it.

I disagree with some of the assessments in Mac's post. Perma-Death is short term bad, and long term bad. Maybe not for hardcores, but for casuals it means never getting much of anywhere. Even if you get far once, you may not the next time, and it leads to a lot of repetition of early content and burnout. If I want to repeat early content I'll make an alt. Seriously, I never even considered Ultima Online to be an option as a game because of Perma-Death, and I was still fairly hardcore back then.

Imagine how things go in RvR, you make a mistake or get distracted and you are taking a dirt nap. And to think people would want to start over at level one as a reward for that mistake or distraction? No, some people are just masochists, let them be masochists, but don't pretend we're all that crazy.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:06 PM by Luluko
I wouldnt say phoenix has too many QoL, they havent put in horses or frontier porting/buff npcs/more gold from rvr kills, or added the feather merchants to aegir where you dont crash that much if you want to use an alchi table. But overall I am quite happy even tho I think my fingers will fall off soon from all the tagging I have to do as skald in TG raids and mobs die so fast with 400+ people in raid. Would be nice to have a challenge mode for that raid and get double the feathers. But I think some ae's from mobs would wipe the zerg if they also doubled their damage.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:10 PM by Tree
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Too tedious is bad for obvious reasons but everything being too easy is also not great. The longer it takes to achieve some goal, be it level 50 or equipment or some RR, the longer people will be engaged given that it doesn't start to feel tedious / is fun.
However, making templating and leveling a rather fast process encourages people to get multiple chars ready which again has a positive effect on the rvr as people can just swap to different classes as needed while also keeping the raids going and everything else a character would need.

I think the only big mistake we made when it comes to progression speed is with the price point of the BP reskins, they should probably have been 10x or more than what they are now.

You should probably also reconsider the feather system. Right now you can do an endgame raid daily, it takes ~90 minutes and you get ~12.000 feathers for it. Which means every 1-2 days a new super crazy endgame item. Its just way to easy to obtain them. And in no time everybody will run around in full sets of them.
That feels cheap and will create a problem along the road. Same for money farming, too easy. Pretty much all PvE will become obsolete and stale in a few months, because players that play regularly will have achieved everything there is way too fast.
So you can either plan on introducing new content or do the hurtful step and increase the difficulty now.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:14 PM by chryso
XLGrandma wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:40 PM
Mac is a straight Uthgard troll trying to stir the pot cause his server only has about 50 people left on it. Phoenix nailed it, which is why the population has grown over the past month.

I know Mac played Uthgard but I see him just about every day playing on Phoenix.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:23 PM by Patron
<<<< Edited by Uthred. Please no insults. Thx. >>>>

Phoenix is all i ever wanted in Daoc.
Custom, fun and free of patchdogmatic.
Keep on the good work folks.

Edit: who cares for classic daoc or wowified...
Its just words without any meaning spoken by a lunatic.
What count is fun and development of chars.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:24 PM by Tree
XLGrandma wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:40 PM
Mac is a straight Uthgard troll trying to stir the pot cause his server only has about 50 people left on it. Phoenix nailed it, which is why the population has grown over the past month.

Population sure has grown and its probably because right now there is tons to do and you get rewarded every few minutes for whatever you do. Its a blast, nobody can argue with that.
The question is, will this be sustainable over the next few months or will Phoenix burn all of its gasoline in one huge bonfire?

Can we sustain the high we have right now by expecting new content, e.g. aspects of later releases like ToA or Catacombs, or should we maybe tone down some of the QoL and accessibility now, so people have to work harder and longer to get all they want? Right now everything is easy. Maybe introduce some form of new mechanics, that will keep players engaged long term, some new RvR or PvE content, that is a lot harder to master than what we have now?
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:31 PM by defiasbandit
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Too tedious is bad for obvious reasons but everything being too easy is also not great. The longer it takes to achieve some goal, be it level 50 or equipment or some RR, the longer people will be engaged given that it doesn't start to feel tedious / is fun.
However, making templating and leveling a rather fast process encourages people to get multiple chars ready which again has a positive effect on the rvr as people can just swap to different classes as needed while also keeping the raids going and everything else a character would need.

I think the only big mistake we made when it comes to progression speed is with the price point of the BP reskins, they should probably have been 10x or more than what they are now.

We just need way more reskins. Not glowy stuff, but I am sure there tons more items similar to the ones on the merchants. The more the better.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:34 PM by Mac
chryso wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:14 PM
XLGrandma wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:40 PM
Mac is a straight Uthgard troll trying to stir the pot cause his server only has about 50 people left on it. Phoenix nailed it, which is why the population has grown over the past month.

I know Mac played Uthgard but I see him just about every day playing on Phoenix.

You see GIL every day on Phoenix. Mac plays on Uthgard 3 nights per week and Gil plays on Phoenix several hours every day.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:38 PM by Mac
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Too tedious is bad for obvious reasons but everything being too easy is also not great. The longer it takes to achieve some goal, be it level 50 or equipment or some RR, the longer people will be engaged given that it doesn't start to feel tedious / is fun.
However, making templating and leveling a rather fast process encourages people to get multiple chars ready which again has a positive effect on the rvr as people can just swap to different classes as needed while also keeping the raids going and everything else a character would need.

I think the only big mistake we made when it comes to progression speed is with the price point of the BP reskins, they should probably have been 10x or more than what they are now.
I usually use Feathers for my reskins, because I can get ~ 6K feathers per hour. I love the reskins, Gil DaTroll looks just like he did in 2004! And reskins don't give any stat advantage, so if we get early it doesn't unbalance anything.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:39 PM by Patron
Tree wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:24 PM
XLGrandma wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:40 PM
Mac is a straight Uthgard troll trying to stir the pot cause his server only has about 50 people left on it. Phoenix nailed it, which is why the population has grown over the past month.

Population sure has grown and its probably because right now there is tons to do and you get rewarded every few minutes for whatever you do. Its a blast, nobody can argue with that.
The question is, will this be sustainable over the next few months or will Phoenix burn all of its gasoline in one huge bonfire?

Can we sustain the high we have right now by expecting new content, e.g. aspects of later releases like ToA or Catacombs, or should we maybe tone down some of the QoL and accessibility now, so people have to work harder and longer to get all they want? Right now everything is easy. Maybe introduce some form of new mechanics, that will keep players engaged long term, some new RvR or PvE content, that is a lot harder to master than what we have now?

Yes some custom addons with own pve and rvr instances with nice mechanics... A kind of enhanced Tajendi would be nice but i think we are good with current state.
Or some events would even raise the content in a good way.
But DAoC is good enough without such things.
Thats why we are addicted since more then 10 years
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:39 PM by romulus
We just need way more reskins. Not glowy stuff, but I am sure there tons more items similar to the ones on the merchants. The more the better.
I'd pay 10x the going rate for a purdy Aten shield skin, just saying...
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:50 PM by defiasbandit
Other thing is that the feather distribution is sort of odd. You can get like 15,000 feathers in a 2 hour Sidi, Tg, Galla raid. The raids reset every 5 hours. You get way more feathers doing that then farming DF or even doing Boss runs in the PvE zones. Its important that players can easily earn feathers, but owning DF or killing frontier bosses doesn't mean much when a TG raid is far more efficient considering you can be AFK.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:54 PM by defiasbandit
Also, links and guides for UIs, leveling, stuff like ReShade, class mechanics should be better displayed on the website. A lot of new players are confused by the game, and have to look through different forums to find this stuff. Maybe it should be on the homepage with a step by step, just like getting the launcher to work.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:55 PM by Uthred
defiasbandit wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:50 PM
Other thing is that the feather distribution is sort of odd. You can get like 15,000 feathers in a 2 hour Sidi, Tg, Galla raid. The raids reset every 5 hours. You get way more feathers doing that then farming DF or even doing Boss runs in the PvE zones. Its important that players can easily earn feathers, but owning DF or killing frontier bosses doesn't mean much when a TG raid is far more efficient considering you can be AFK.

Actually not correct.

Hint: Try High lords with 8 people.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:56 PM by defiasbandit
Uthred wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:55 PM
defiasbandit wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:50 PM
Other thing is that the feather distribution is sort of odd. You can get like 15,000 feathers in a 2 hour Sidi, Tg, Galla raid. The raids reset every 5 hours. You get way more feathers doing that then farming DF or even doing Boss runs in the PvE zones. Its important that players can easily earn feathers, but owning DF or killing frontier bosses doesn't mean much when a TG raid is far more efficient considering you can be AFK.

Actually not correct.

Hint: Try High lords with 8 people.

Yeah, but the effort required compared to being afk autostick in TG for 2 hours isnt comparable. So its like well why go through the effort of taking keeps and farming those mobs, when I can get comparable feathers in a 300 player raid. I think the easy feathers is good, it just makes farming in DF sort of trivial.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:06 PM by defiasbandit
The rate of leveling, participation RP from tasks, reaching RR5, is all really well tuned.

The concern some of us have is will casual players stay interested in RvR after they reach those goals? RR gain slows down a lot after RR5. Relics don't seem to matter much, owning Darkness Falls is sort of meh, and its questionable how fun the zerg tasking will be i the long run. Somebody else in this topic mentioned the need of some alternative RvR feature, particularly for casuals. I tend to agree.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:12 PM by defiasbandit
Trials of Atlantis is the key to all of this.

Maybe half the players on this server prefer PvE. They are why the pop is 4k. Obviously, you can't add Classic ToA, but a Phoenix version of ToA would add a year of content and replayability I bet.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:12 PM by Tree
Uthred wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:55 PM
defiasbandit wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:50 PM
Other thing is that the feather distribution is sort of odd. You can get like 15,000 feathers in a 2 hour Sidi, Tg, Galla raid. The raids reset every 5 hours. You get way more feathers doing that then farming DF or even doing Boss runs in the PvE zones. Its important that players can easily earn feathers, but owning DF or killing frontier bosses doesn't mean much when a TG raid is far more efficient considering you can be AFK.

Actually not correct.

Hint: Try High lords with 8 people.

Fake news. Highlords arent as efficent as for instance galladoria raids. Not even close.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:40 PM by Luluko
Tree wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Too tedious is bad for obvious reasons but everything being too easy is also not great. The longer it takes to achieve some goal, be it level 50 or equipment or some RR, the longer people will be engaged given that it doesn't start to feel tedious / is fun.
However, making templating and leveling a rather fast process encourages people to get multiple chars ready which again has a positive effect on the rvr as people can just swap to different classes as needed while also keeping the raids going and everything else a character would need.

I think the only big mistake we made when it comes to progression speed is with the price point of the BP reskins, they should probably have been 10x or more than what they are now.

You should probably also reconsider the feather system. Right now you can do an endgame raid daily, it takes ~90 minutes and you get ~12.000 feathers for it. Which means every 1-2 days a new super crazy endgame item. Its just way to easy to obtain them. And in no time everybody will run around in full sets of them.
That feels cheap and will create a problem along the road. Same for money farming, too easy. Pretty much all PvE will become obsolete and stale in a few months, because players that play regularly will have achieved everything there is way too fast.
So you can either plan on introducing new content or do the hurtful step and increase the difficulty now.
you think 12k is much in TG? I just heard albion gets 20k feathers with one sidi run thats unfair I also want 20k.

Also we dont wanna raid the epic dungeons to no end some people actually play the game for the rvr and I will probably have completed 12+ TG runs until I have all I need and that just for one toon and I am already tired of TG with the 8 runs I did but most of the feather items just have the best utitility and proccs/uses.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:43 PM by defiasbandit
Luluko wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:40 PM
Tree wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Too tedious is bad for obvious reasons but everything being too easy is also not great. The longer it takes to achieve some goal, be it level 50 or equipment or some RR, the longer people will be engaged given that it doesn't start to feel tedious / is fun.
However, making templating and leveling a rather fast process encourages people to get multiple chars ready which again has a positive effect on the rvr as people can just swap to different classes as needed while also keeping the raids going and everything else a character would need.

I think the only big mistake we made when it comes to progression speed is with the price point of the BP reskins, they should probably have been 10x or more than what they are now.

You should probably also reconsider the feather system. Right now you can do an endgame raid daily, it takes ~90 minutes and you get ~12.000 feathers for it. Which means every 1-2 days a new super crazy endgame item. Its just way to easy to obtain them. And in no time everybody will run around in full sets of them.
That feels cheap and will create a problem along the road. Same for money farming, too easy. Pretty much all PvE will become obsolete and stale in a few months, because players that play regularly will have achieved everything there is way too fast.
So you can either plan on introducing new content or do the hurtful step and increase the difficulty now.
you think 12k is much in TG? I just heard albion gets 20k feathers with one sidi run thats unfair I also want 20k.

Also we dont wanna raid the epic dungeons to no end some people actually play the game for the rvr and I will probably have completed 12+ TG runs until I have all I need and that just for one toon and I am already tired of TG with the 8 runs I did but most of the feather items just have the best utitility and proccs/uses.

Darkness Falls should have special drops you can't use feathers to buy.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:43 PM by defiasbandit
Luluko wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:40 PM
Tree wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Too tedious is bad for obvious reasons but everything being too easy is also not great. The longer it takes to achieve some goal, be it level 50 or equipment or some RR, the longer people will be engaged given that it doesn't start to feel tedious / is fun.
However, making templating and leveling a rather fast process encourages people to get multiple chars ready which again has a positive effect on the rvr as people can just swap to different classes as needed while also keeping the raids going and everything else a character would need.

I think the only big mistake we made when it comes to progression speed is with the price point of the BP reskins, they should probably have been 10x or more than what they are now.

You should probably also reconsider the feather system. Right now you can do an endgame raid daily, it takes ~90 minutes and you get ~12.000 feathers for it. Which means every 1-2 days a new super crazy endgame item. Its just way to easy to obtain them. And in no time everybody will run around in full sets of them.
That feels cheap and will create a problem along the road. Same for money farming, too easy. Pretty much all PvE will become obsolete and stale in a few months, because players that play regularly will have achieved everything there is way too fast.
So you can either plan on introducing new content or do the hurtful step and increase the difficulty now.
you think 12k is much in TG? I just heard albion gets 20k feathers with one sidi run thats unfair I also want 20k.

Also we dont wanna raid the epic dungeons to no end some people actually play the game for the rvr and I will probably have completed 12+ TG runs until I have all I need and that just for one toon and I am already tired of TG with the 8 runs I did but most of the feather items just have the best utitility and proccs/uses.

Darkness Falls should have special drops you can't use feathers to buy.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:52 PM by Mac
I still need another 30 TG runs to get the Epic Victor title. Another month!
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:03 PM by daocgod
I don't think its too much QoL, but there are some poorly thought our kneejerk reaction changes and some things that shouldn't have made it in. Endurance nerf, PD nerf, Tasks and Caravans are my biggest gripe with the server.

I didn't like the feather system at first because they copy pasted some custom overpowered bullshit code onto all the purple named mobs that are a joke on live. Now I can just afk on a sidi raid and get what I need, which is nice. If the epic dungeons were how they used to be it would be really bad, 2 people out of 200 would come out of the raid with an item and the rest get nothing for their time invested. Its a nice change.

Tasks have completely destroyed what RvR was. You see so many higher ranked players that have done nothing but form a blob, camp a milegate, and run around the designated zone. I hope these players get bored of this playstyle and quit, but I'm not sure that will happen. People clamor for RP's over a good fight and this system just enables that even more. Even zergs run away from each other because they don't know what is just out of clip behind them, and its shit.

The people that say "just go to another zone" clearly have no experience actually playing the game with the group cap of 8. You can't change human nature.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:18 PM by chryso
defiasbandit wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:56 PM
Yeah, but the effort required compared to being afk autostick in TG for 2 hours isnt comparable. So its like well why go through the effort of taking keeps and farming those mobs, when I can get comparable feathers in a 300 player raid. I think the easy feathers is good, it just makes farming in DF sort of trivial.

Maybe you are going afk in raids and leeching feathers but some of us actually play the game.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:20 PM by Gfxygames
daocgod wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:03 PM
I didn't like the feather system at first because they copy pasted some custom overpowered bullshit code onto all the purple named mobs that are a joke on live.

Because you totally have access to the code base and know it's copy pasted into a ground up system, it's just that simple, right?

To keep on point of thread. I think anything that makes rvr accessible for casuals can only help the server. That's what live did. While they don't have insanely high numbers, they still have consistent zerg because it's quick and easy to get to. Uth has no zerg because casuals don't have quick and easy access to rvr.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:25 PM by Truen
Ceen wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:55 PM
As long as there are 4k players and 1k+ in the RvR zones, there is no mistake :p

Yeah. Who wants to criticize this server? This server is awesome (in every sense of that word). I've not had this much fun in years.
THANK YOU to the devs who made this possible!
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:42 AM by kmark101
90% of Daoc playerbase is purely pve player - always been. That's the sole reason why Mythic had to come up with ToA, no other.
For pve players, there has never been a more fun option than Phoenix. It's fun to level, xp rate is good, there are couple solo options and your character actually makes a difference with ROGs. It's a golden Daoc levelling experience. Gearing up a character is predictable, with a couple pve raids the most important and essential items can be gained 100%. Then when they are done, there are 39 other classes to reroll and do it again.

This is the reason that Phoenix is thriving, the pve crowd is very happy.

RvR is negligible. I don't think we ever seen any rvr raid that was even close to any of the pve raids in numbers. Nothing could mobilize pve players for rvr, because it takes much more effort (you actually have to organize groups, buff up, run around, etc..). I don't think any Daoc game server solved the RvR part yet. Tasks are great here, but what is the big picture? RvR should have more incentives, rules and rewards. Server should educate and somehow turn pve players (or at least some of them) to RvR players. How? I have no clue, but that would be the next level of Daoc that never happened before.

ps.: oh and re-skins. totally re-skins. we need MOAR re-skins, seriously that could be the number one player retention tool.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:59 AM by Karqa
Mac wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
I agree totally If the population stays above 4K over all with 1K in RvR zones than the short term good is working! I Hope it stays there but fear it won't, Time will tell. If we still have 1K in RvR by summer 2019, I will consider the 'give em everything they ask for' strategy to have worked!

Stop toxicating the forums Gil. We are happy what phoenix is. I guess you couldnt find any1 in uthgard forums and u started your forumdrama here.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:43 AM by Sepplord
Just a small anecdote to add:

In my guild there is a bonedancer. He is an old school player that has been playing farmchars for over 15years in DAoC. A nice dude. Was talking to him a bit during our levelling etc...
A week ago or so we came to the topic of RvR and he casually mentions how RvR sucks and that he has never been an RvR guy.

I told him that he should at least get a few tasks in, when he can port to the respective zones to enhance his PvE with a few basic RAs. He tried it and cursed for the first evening, and then the cursing got less. He has been pretty active in RvR since then, is joining groups and is getting into the RvR of the game for the first time despite playing for 15years


It boggles my mind how it is possible to play the game that long if not for the RvR....but the point is that Phoenix manages to get people into RvR that never bothered or even hated it before. And that is something that might make the population sustainable
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:13 AM by Durgrim
little bit offtopic:
Why actually giving a post such a topic "Phoenix's Biggest Mistake"
Sounds like yellow press. Attention-***** came to my mind instantly.
Why not just lean back and enjoy the game without this shizzle?

Instead of creating a fuzz-topic like this, put something in the suggestion forum or ask a dev section - this would have been more constructive.
This post instead in the 'Tavern' is just attentioncraving and thus to be deleted.

please delete this post. the OP should rewrite it. educational mean.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:20 AM by Mac
Durgrim wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:13 AM
little bit offtopic:
Why actually giving a post such a topic "Phoenix's Biggest Mistake"
Sounds like yellow press. Attention-***** came to my mind instantly.
Why not just lean back and enjoy the game without this shizzle?

Instead of creating a fuzz-topic like this, put something in the suggestion forum or ask a dev section - this would have been more constructive.
This post instead in the 'Tavern' is just attentioncraving and thus to be deleted.

please delete this post. the OP should rewrite it. educational mean.



IMO. Phoenix has done a lot of things right. The time to level up to 50 here is very good. The fast travel here is very good. The too easy end games: RvR and Epic Raids are short term good, long term bad. I posted here so the player community would think about these things and respond. As many of you have.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:31 AM by Durgrim
Mac wrote:
Durgrim wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:13 AM
little bit offtopic:
Why actually giving a post such a topic "Phoenix's Biggest Mistake"
Sounds like yellow press. Attention-***** came to my mind instantly.
Why not just lean back and enjoy the game without this shizzle?

Instead of creating a fuzz-topic like this, put something in the suggestion forum or ask a dev section - this would have been more constructive.
This post instead in the 'Tavern' is just attentioncraving and thus to be deleted.

please delete this post. the OP should rewrite it. educational mean.



IMO. Phoenix has done a lot of things right. The time to level up to 50 here is very good. The fast travel here is very good. The too easy end games: RvR and Epic Raids are short term good, long term bad. I posted here so the player community would think about these things and respond. As many of you have.

Gil, the intention of posting something with this title in this section has a touch of an intention. What was your aim with this post? and after couple of weeks this server going live with an increasing population calling something "biggest mistake" is kinda...umm.....leanforward. Especially as a troll you should know what happens if you lean forward too much
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:48 AM by Salviati
Karqa wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:59 AM
Mac wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
I agree totally If the population stays above 4K over all with 1K in RvR zones than the short term good is working! I Hope it stays there but fear it won't, Time will tell. If we still have 1K in RvR by summer 2019, I will consider the 'give em everything they ask for' strategy to have worked!

Stop toxicating the forums Gil. We are happy what phoenix is. I guess you couldnt find any1 in uthgard forums and u started your forumdrama here.

Speak for yourself and let others speak for themselves.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:16 AM by Mac
Durgrim wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:31 AM
Mac wrote:
Durgrim wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:13 AM
little bit offtopic:
Why actually giving a post such a topic "Phoenix's Biggest Mistake"
Sounds like yellow press. Attention-***** came to my mind instantly.
Why not just lean back and enjoy the game without this shizzle?

Instead of creating a fuzz-topic like this, put something in the suggestion forum or ask a dev section - this would have been more constructive.
This post instead in the 'Tavern' is just attentioncraving and thus to be deleted.

please delete this post. the OP should rewrite it. educational mean.



IMO. Phoenix has done a lot of things right. The time to level up to 50 here is very good. The fast travel here is very good. The too easy end games: RvR and Epic Raids are short term good, long term bad. I posted here so the player community would think about these things and respond. As many of you have.

Gil, the intention of posting something with this title in this section has a touch of an intention. What was your aim with this post? and after couple of weeks this server going live with an increasing population calling something "biggest mistake" is kinda...umm.....leanforward. Especially as a troll you should know what happens if you lean forward too much
I posted a LOT on the Uthgard forums and I've been posting here since Phoenix Alpha. I think my posts are consistent. On Uthgard I was asking the staff to NOT GIVE IN to player demands that the game be made easy. (Even though I did support some QoL changes such as more porters and faster leveling). Here, I'm asking the staff to focus on what's good for the game long term. Phoenix is great for a few weeks! It's got MANY features that are good for the short term. I want it to be good for the long term too. I've been playing DAoC since closed Beta days in 2000. I enjoy DAoC for the long haul. Hell, I even enjoyed ToA for a time but, the ToA attempt to WoWify DAoC destroyed the player population! Many like ToA with the Master Levels and Artifacts but it took too many of us away from RvR and that was one of those short term good, long term bad calls.

Now, I recognize that the majority of forum posters say that they are here primarily for the RvR so lets short cut the Pre-RvR time. However, the majorty of those who play the game spend 80% of their time in PvE and only 20% in RvR. It;s been like that on every server, official as well as the freeshards. The staff needs to find a way to keep all play styles fun for the long haul.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:20 AM by Durgrim
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:16 AM
Here, I'm asking the staff to focus on what's good for the game long term. . The staff needs to find a way to keep all play styles fun for the long haul.

No, Mac. You are not asking anything in your 'Biggest Mistake' post in the Tavern Forum.


asking implements a question, if very polite starting with
"what do you think about..."

or
"I kindly ask you to..."

in the
ASK THE TEAM
or
SUGGESTION

section of this forum.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:21 AM by defiasbandit
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:16 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:31 AM
Mac wrote: IMO. Phoenix has done a lot of things right. The time to level up to 50 here is very good. The fast travel here is very good. The too easy end games: RvR and Epic Raids are short term good, long term bad. I posted here so the player community would think about these things and respond. As many of you have.

Gil, the intention of posting something with this title in this section has a touch of an intention. What was your aim with this post? and after couple of weeks this server going live with an increasing population calling something "biggest mistake" is kinda...umm.....leanforward. Especially as a troll you should know what happens if you lean forward too much
I posted a LOT on the Uthgard forums and I've been posting here since Phoenix Alpha. I think my posts are consistent. On Uthgard I was asking the staff to NOT GIVE IN to player demands that the game be made easy. (Even though I did support some QoL changes such as more porters and faster leveling). Here, I'm asking the staff to focus on what's good for the game long term. Phoenix is great for a few weeks! It's got MANY features that are good for the short term. I want it to be good for the long term too. I've been playing DAoC since closed Beta days in 2000. I enjoy DAoC for the long haul. Hell, I even enjoyed ToA for a time but, the ToA attempt to WoWify DAoC destroyed the player population! Many like ToA with the Master Levels and Artifacts but it took too many of us away from RvR and that was one of those short term good, long term bad calls.

Now, I recognize that the majority of forum posters say that they are here primarily for the RvR so lets short cut the Pre-RvR time. However, the majorty of those who play the game spend 80% of their time in PvE and only 20% in RvR. It;s been like that on every server, official as well as the freeshards. The staff needs to find a way to keep all play styles fun for the long haul.

How did ToA WoWify DAOC, when ToA came out over a year before WoW. Why do you think Mythic made ToA? because most players spend their time doing PvE.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:25 AM by Lev
Tree wrote:
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
You should probably also reconsider the feather system. Right now you can do an endgame raid daily, it takes ~90 minutes and you get ~12.000 feathers for it. Which means every 1-2 days a new super crazy endgame item. Its just way to easy to obtain them. And in no time everybody will run around in full sets of them.
That feels cheap and will create a problem along the road. Same for money farming, too easy. Pretty much all PvE will become obsolete and stale in a few months, because players that play regularly will have achieved everything there is way too fast.
So you can either plan on introducing new content or do the hurtful step and increase the difficulty now.

i thought about this as well, but in reality this not an issue in DAoC, because you reach all caps very easily here.
just for some few items like extra slow weapons, there is a small difference and really everyone will have those.

for the rest of "new super crazy endgame items", the inflation will make them common. so common that they are nothing special anymore, so why even getting them.
i mean, i'm the only one in the frontiers running around with standard skins and the server has been open just one month.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:07 AM by Druth
Uthgard problem is NOT that they don't listen to players.

You don't listen to players (well, you listen some), you look at players. What do they do, how do they do it, why do they do it, etc etc...

Take Tundra...

Phase 1: Midgard 50% pop, zerkers often one-shots people. "Nothing is wrong, the RA works as intended."
Phase 2: Midgard top earner rps, other realms slow down on RvR action. "Tundra might be wrong, we adjusted it, now it's correct".
Phase 3: "We adjusted Tundra again".

Phase 3 took them 5 months to reach.

This had NOTHING to do with listen, any idiot could have looked at Population/RP/Classes played and seen something was completely boonkers.
They lack the ability to be pro-active, to look at signs that are screaming in their face and react to it.

When their disaster struck, and Phoenix rolled off in beta, they decide to do some custom changes that comes with promises of milk and honey that never see the light.

So while they, to me, stand for brilliance in creating a bug-free server, they also (to me again) manage to come off as incabable of running a server with humans playing it.


Now to Phoenix. They do listen to much, I don't understand why leveling needs to be this easy. I like the feather system, but fear what will happen when people bore of raiding, and you can gather 20-30 to do TG.
But so far the staff has shown they are ready and willing to change things around if they seem like a problem. And they understand the need for /underpop bonuses and relics to have little effect.

But the task system is amazing, both short term and long term.
It means the world to casuals that they can enter RvR, and get a reward no matter how much they suck.
Yes, people zerg, and yes people almost suicide just to get rps. But it's a system that favours low RR, and any system like that only helps create action.
High RR go there because they know they will find action, and low RR go there because they know they will get rps.

People who don't want to go task areas can go to xp areas both in their own zone to protect xp'ers, or enemy to gank and expect to find very few, if any, fg's.


Will this remain fun? Maybe not, but their population has actually gone up the since launch, and stability the same.
And I am 99% certain the staff have continious discussions about the need to adjust things.
I can say though with 100% certainty that the server will fail. Eventually. Because everything does.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:15 AM by Durgrim
Druth wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:07 AM
I can say though with 100% certainty that the server will fail. Eventually. Because everything does.

what is fail? I consider 'failing' as releasing a freeshard and have less than 100 players after 4 weeks.

Phoenix, compared to live and other freeshards is a success by now.
If within 2 years the playerbase is below 1000 even then its not a fail....has been a great time then
there are released MMOs which I remember being a true fail after 3 months.

check yourself...how often have you thrown a MMO into the corner after 2-3 weeks and how long are you playing on this server now? fail or no fail?

just my 2cents.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:51 AM by Mac
relvinian wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:24 AM
TLDR

It IS very long. Did you read the first paragraph?
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:01 AM by Druth
Durgrim wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:15 AM
Druth wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:07 AM
I can say though with 100% certainty that the server will fail. Eventually. Because everything does.

what is fail? I consider 'failing' as releasing a freeshard and have less than 100 players after 4 weeks.

Phoenix, compared to live and other freeshards is a success by now.
If within 2 years the playerbase is below 1000 even then its not a fail....has been a great time then
there are released MMOs which I remember being a true fail after 3 months.

check yourself...how often have you thrown a MMO into the corner after 2-3 weeks and how long are you playing on this server now? fail or no fail?

just my 2cents.

Wuuuuuush, went right over your head.

My point is that the "doom and gloom" people will eventually be correct.
In 5 years from now they'll look at the server and say: "Told you it wouldn't last".

But understand "fail" was an ill chosen word. I should have said "close down" or "drop below 500 people" etc etc...
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:52 AM by Durgrim
Druth wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:01 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:15 AM
Druth wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:07 AM
I can say though with 100% certainty that the server will fail. Eventually. Because everything does.

what is fail? I consider 'failing' as releasing a freeshard and have less than 100 players after 4 weeks.

Phoenix, compared to live and other freeshards is a success by now.
If within 2 years the playerbase is below 1000 even then its not a fail....has been a great time then
there are released MMOs which I remember being a true fail after 3 months.

check yourself...how often have you thrown a MMO into the corner after 2-3 weeks and how long are you playing on this server now? fail or no fail?

just my 2cents.

Wuuuuuush, went right over your head.

My point is that the "doom and gloom" people will eventually be correct.
In 5 years from now they'll look at the server and say: "Told you it wouldn't last".

But understand "fail" was an ill chosen word. I should have said "close down" or "drop below 500 people" etc etc...

got you and appreciate your response.
That being re-stated, you may want to be right. Hopefully you do not treat your girlfriend like this
"Hey babe, we're having lots of fun but in 5 years i'll be looking back and say: told ya it wouldn't last..."
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:08 PM by lurker
A lot of people are missing the point.

Uthgard didnt fail because of lack of QoL (well, that was part of it) but the fact that the staff were adamant that the server would be real 1.65 or bust. They would not consider any changes to thier stated goal and any development that happened would just be to get closer to that pure 1.65 vision. Amongst other things (lack of comms, etc)

Here’s the crux... players dont care if there are bugs, imbalance or hardships in the game as long as they feel the developers are actively listening to the community and working towards solutions. Players do not want a static game, there will always be balance issues to look at. One of the great things about classic DAOC back in the day was ‘what changes might come out next patch, will that issue with XXX be addressed?’

With uthgard, this never happened. Unhappy that your class is shit? Well get over it because that was 1.65 dont expect it to ever change.

Equally phoneix will not fail because of too much QoL... Phoenix is a game that is under development and will be moving forward. The staff will attempt to address issues and balance where required removing QoL/Ballance if it seems like that would be best for the community or adding more if required.

That doesn’t mean giving players every single thing they ask for and of course there is a balance to get right between classic and custom, but just the knowledge that the staff are working towards this sort of things is why people are happy to play here... even though there are 4 reboots a day, bugs, lack of quests, etc. Etc.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:14 PM by Mac
Population has been pretty stable since launch, neither growing much nor declining much. THAT'S A GOOD THING!

https://unixgeek.com/phoenix.html#lastweek
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:51 PM by worldknown
For the love of god do not slow down or adjust leveling speed, if anything it could still be enhanced

We’re not kids anymore and most of us are casual gamers that can spend an hour or two every night logging on and enjoying our characters. If you can tolerate grinding to 50 on classic while raising a family and working a job, great for you — but thatd not me and that’s not 90% of the player base. Go play Everquest if you don’t like the speed.

If the leveling on this server was anything like classic or uthgard you will completely isolate and wipe out the casual gamers.

There are people like me that love pvp but don’t enjoy the leveling aspect, slowing this down would be the death of this server pop.

In addition someone else talked about how the leveling promotes the creation of alts, and I couldn’t agree with this more.

Once again please never change the speed of exp gain. I could deal with other changes but this is one that would be a slap in the face to your casual gamer.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:08 PM by Horus
On Uth, if you picked a toon/realm, grinded it out to 50 and realized maybe the endgame for that combo was not to your liking, you had the daunting task of starting a new toon and a new grind. For some this was fine, for many it was too much...

The core of Uth was one toon you really connected with and wanted to play...this was fine when it worked.. but a bit rare.

The core idea of Phoenix is facilitating multiple toons, various realms, so you can play what you feel like playing at any given time..if you get tired of one and/or see a need for another you can roll it and level it up without that huge grind deterrent...but still enough to make it a cursory challenge.

I think that is what will give Phoenix some longevity ...and it a pretty good strategy in this day and age where most of the DaoC playing population is seasoned and likes to play multiple toons and is not stuck on their 1 or 2 as many of us were back in the day...
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:13 PM by Afuldan
I have severe altitis. Having the option to actually gear all these alts of mine is incredibly awesome and will keep me playing for a long time to come.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:16 PM by Ganil
I gave uthgard a try, the server was good, but really unfriendly for casual play. My toon reach lv49 and I left.
I gave uthgard2 a try, I didn't bother going after lv10. Xp was way too long again.
I gave origin a try but it was a bit weird and dead when I picked it up.

On phoenix, I'm now planning to reroll some toons so... I guess the xp was fine. Tasks make the first ranks pretty quick and even help solo xp. Populations is stable (if not growing slithgly after a month).

Yes, there are some balance issues pvp wise, but it's by far my best experience on a freeshard so far. The others were not even close.

And yes one day it will probably die like every other server/game, I had a blast on the classical live server and it eventually died too. Just enjoy it while it last.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:20 PM by Durgrim
Ganil wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:16 PM
And yes one day it will probably die like every other server/game, I had a blast on the classical live server and it eventually died too. Just enjoy it while it last.

word. couldn't agree more!
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:41 PM by Mac
worldknown wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:51 PM
For the love of god do not slow down or adjust leveling speed, if anything it could still be enhanced

We’re not kids anymore and most of us are casual gamers that can spend an hour or two every night logging on and enjoying our characters. If you can tolerate grinding to 50 on classic while raising a family and working a job, great for you — but thatd not me and that’s not 90% of the player base. Go play Everquest if you don’t like the speed.

If the leveling on this server was anything like classic or uthgard you will completely isolate and wipe out the casual gamers.

There are people like me that love pvp but don’t enjoy the leveling aspect, slowing this down would be the death of this server pop.

In addition someone else talked about how the leveling promotes the creation of alts, and I couldn’t agree with this more.

Once again please never change the speed of exp gain. I could deal with other changes but this is one that would be a slap in the face to your casual gamer.

You've never seen me in this thread or anywhere else say that the leveling process here is too fast! I think it's great that it only takes a few hours /played to get to 50! I even enjoyed the insta 50 insta RR 6 we had in Alpha and Beta.

My concern is that ALL aspects of the game, including end game is in easy mode. I hope the team makes some adjustments to end game.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:51 PM by Tritri
Since the end game is pvp centric, by definition it can't be "easy"

It's as easy as the player base's level
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:54 PM by Zansobar
Tritri wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:51 PM
Since the end game is pvp centric, by definition it can't be "easy"

It's as easy as the player base's level

Yeah I'm not sure if the OP means the progression is easy...but the end game combat is as easy or hard as your opponent makes it.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:04 PM by Mac
Zansobar wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:54 PM
Tritri wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:51 PM
Since the end game is pvp centric, by definition it can't be "easy"

It's as easy as the player base's level

Yeah I'm not sure if the OP means the progression is easy...but the end game combat is as easy or hard as your opponent makes it.

Good point. I do mean that the progression is too easy. Here, on Phoenix we can gain Realm Ranks without ever killing enemy players! The realm tasks pay off for porting to the right zone. You don;t even need to be alive to collect!

And, RvR isn't the only end game. 200+ in a TG raid takes ~ 2 hours for a full clear, and yeilds ~ 12K feathers! A few runs thru there, even if yer AFK stuck to a friend, and yer well equipped!
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:24 PM by Zansobar
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:04 PM
Zansobar wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:54 PM
Tritri wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:51 PM
Since the end game is pvp centric, by definition it can't be "easy"

It's as easy as the player base's level

Yeah I'm not sure if the OP means the progression is easy...but the end game combat is as easy or hard as your opponent makes it.

Good point. I do mean that the progression is too easy. Here, on Phoenix we can gain Realm Ranks without ever killing enemy players! The realm tasks pay off for porting to the right zone. You don;t even need to be alive to collect!

And, RvR isn't the only end game. 200+ in a TG raid takes ~ 2 hours for a full clear, and yeilds ~ 12K feathers! A few runs thru there, even if yer AFK stuck to a friend, and yer well equipped!

Yes I understand your concerns and I have them too, but... the alternative is slower progression which can lead to people quitting. The reason for quitting is that people do not know how classes are going to play (feel) in end game due to so many changes in classes and gameplay and other classes that you have to combat. This means you invest time to level then to get geared then to get some RAs and THEN you finally have an ability to judge if you like how your class plays in end game...if you don't you need to be able to stomach re-rolling else you will quit the game. That is what happend on Uthgard...people started down a path (maybe thought a friar or thane would be fun) found out that heavy tanks were king and knew they couldn't compete or have fun in end game RvR with that class, looked at how long it took them to get where they are and decided they don't want to do that again, and thus quit.

This being said, I do see that in 6 months or so many many players will be generally maxed out on classes they care to play (LGM in all crafts, 50s templated and RR8 or so in their classes, and probably done this in all three realms)....when you run out of progression you run out of fun for most people that play MMOs. It's at that point the population could start dropping. I just hope the devs are not opposed to wiping and restarting the server about every year or so, so people can do it again and enjoy the progression once again.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:30 PM by worldknown
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:41 PM
worldknown wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:51 PM
For the love of god do not slow down or adjust leveling speed, if anything it could still be enhanced

We’re not kids anymore and most of us are casual gamers that can spend an hour or two every night logging on and enjoying our characters. If you can tolerate grinding to 50 on classic while raising a family and working a job, great for you — but thatd not me and that’s not 90% of the player base. Go play Everquest if you don’t like the speed.

If the leveling on this server was anything like classic or uthgard you will completely isolate and wipe out the casual gamers.

There are people like me that love pvp but don’t enjoy the leveling aspect, slowing this down would be the death of this server pop.

In addition someone else talked about how the leveling promotes the creation of alts, and I couldn’t agree with this more.

Once again please never change the speed of exp gain. I could deal with other changes but this is one that would be a slap in the face to your casual gamer.

You've never seen me in this thread or anywhere else say that the leveling process here is too fast! I think it's great that it only takes a few hours /played to get to 50! I even enjoyed the insta 50 insta RR 6 we had in Alpha and Beta.

My concern is that ALL aspects of the game, including end game is in easy mode. I hope the team makes some adjustments to end game.

“Few hours” to 50. I don’t know where you’re leveling but it’s taking far longer than a few hours to get to 50. I’m finding through conversations and experience with others that an hour a level is an incredibly fast pace after level 30. Going by this logic it’s at least 20 hours played to get to 50, a far cry from a “few hours” and still considered to be somewhat daunting for a casual player like myself
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:37 PM by Mac
Zansobar wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:24 PM
Yes I understand your concerns and I have them too, but... the alternative is slower progression which can lead to people quitting. The reason for quitting is that people do not know how classes are going to play (feel) in end game due to so many changes in classes and gameplay and other classes that you have to combat. This means you invest time to level then to get geared then to get some RAs and THEN you finally have an ability to judge if you like how your class plays in end game...if you don't you need to be able to stomach re-rolling else you will quit the game. That is what happend on Uthgard...people started down a path (maybe thought a friar or thane would be fun) found out that heavy tanks were king and knew they couldn't compete or have fun in end game RvR with that class, looked at how long it took them to get where they are and decided they don't want to do that again, and thus quit.

This being said, I do see that in 6 months or so many many players will be generally maxed out on classes they care to play (LGM in all crafts, 50s templated and RR8 or so in their classes, and probably done this in all three realms)....when you run out of progression you run out of fun for most people that play MMOs. It's at that point the population could start dropping. I just hope the devs are not opposed to wiping and restarting the server about every year or so, so people can do it again and enjoy the progression once again.
No character wipes! Very few of the Uth 1 players came back for Uth2. DAoC is ment to be a persistent world where your character's progression choices matter.

I could see a 'season's concept where the Scoreboard get's wiped at the end of each season but please don't drive people away with char wipes.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:38 PM by Zansobar
I believe if you are being powerleveled in ae groups that time can be quite a bit shortened but then again that is the exception not the norm.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:39 PM by Zansobar
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:37 PM
Zansobar wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:24 PM
Yes I understand your concerns and I have them too, but... the alternative is slower progression which can lead to people quitting. The reason for quitting is that people do not know how classes are going to play (feel) in end game due to so many changes in classes and gameplay and other classes that you have to combat. This means you invest time to level then to get geared then to get some RAs and THEN you finally have an ability to judge if you like how your class plays in end game...if you don't you need to be able to stomach re-rolling else you will quit the game. That is what happend on Uthgard...people started down a path (maybe thought a friar or thane would be fun) found out that heavy tanks were king and knew they couldn't compete or have fun in end game RvR with that class, looked at how long it took them to get where they are and decided they don't want to do that again, and thus quit.

This being said, I do see that in 6 months or so many many players will be generally maxed out on classes they care to play (LGM in all crafts, 50s templated and RR8 or so in their classes, and probably done this in all three realms)....when you run out of progression you run out of fun for most people that play MMOs. It's at that point the population could start dropping. I just hope the devs are not opposed to wiping and restarting the server about every year or so, so people can do it again and enjoy the progression once again.
No character wipes! Very few of the Uth 1 players came back for Uth2. DAoC is ment to be a persistent world where your character's progression choices matter.

I could see a 'season's concept where the Scoreboard get's wiped at the end of each season but please don't drive people away with char wipes.

People are maxing out in the first month in one realm (not in RR but they can get to RR5 in that time). Wiping is not a big deal...on Uthgard yes it would be a disaster - here not so much.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:43 PM by PingGuy
Mac wrote: Good point. I do mean that the progression is too easy. Here, on Phoenix we can gain Realm Ranks without ever killing enemy players! The realm tasks pay off for porting to the right zone. You don;t even need to be alive to collect!

So let's be honest here, early RR progression is easy due to tasks. That adds a level of accessibility to RvR. That is a good thing, full stop. Feel free to disagree, but you would be wrong. Ok, so that's ruder than I wanted to be, but I needed to be blunt about that point. Tasks = Good for entry level RvR.

At higher RR's, the tasks help, but with 21.025 RP's required to go from 3L9 to 4L0, it's not like people are flying up to RR5 and above because of tasks. I've been RvRing as much as I can for the last week or so and I have 33.5k RP's total. I'm going to be stuck in RR3 and RR4 for a long time. And I'm fine with that. As far as I know, the tasks don't scale, they give 1000-1200 RP's at some flat rate per task. If I am wrong about that then maybe there could be a problem.

Simply put, if there were no realm tasks, I'd probably have given up on RvR after a few tries. Now that doesn't matter so much in a vacuum, but my understanding is that tons of other people feel the same way. Can you make a case for why easy realm tasks with low fixed RP gains are a problem long term?
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:45 PM by Mac
worldknown wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:30 PM
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:41 PM
You've never seen me in this thread or anywhere else say that the leveling process here is too fast! I think it's great that it only takes a few hours /played to get to 50! I even enjoyed the insta 50 insta RR 6 we had in Alpha and Beta.

My concern is that ALL aspects of the game, including end game is in easy mode. I hope the team makes some adjustments to end game.

“Few hours” to 50. I don’t know where you’re leveling but it’s taking far longer than a few hours to get to 50. I’m finding through conversations and experience with others that an hour a level is an incredibly fast pace after level 30. Going by this logic it’s at least 20 hours played to get to 50, a far cry from a “few hours” and still considered to be somewhat daunting for a casual player like myself
I consider 20 hours to be a few hours. That's 2 days of 10 hours each. A LOT of people were level 50 during the first weekend. It might be slow to level your first character if you dont know where the appropriate mobs are but you second character will go much faster. Group up and do the XP Item collections.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:49 PM by Zansobar
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:45 PM
worldknown wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:30 PM
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:41 PM
You've never seen me in this thread or anywhere else say that the leveling process here is too fast! I think it's great that it only takes a few hours /played to get to 50! I even enjoyed the insta 50 insta RR 6 we had in Alpha and Beta.

My concern is that ALL aspects of the game, including end game is in easy mode. I hope the team makes some adjustments to end game.

“Few hours” to 50. I don’t know where you’re leveling but it’s taking far longer than a few hours to get to 50. I’m finding through conversations and experience with others that an hour a level is an incredibly fast pace after level 30. Going by this logic it’s at least 20 hours played to get to 50, a far cry from a “few hours” and still considered to be somewhat daunting for a casual player like myself
I consider 20 hours to be a few hours. That's 2 days of 10 hours each. A LOT of people were level 50 during the first weekend. It might be slow to level your first character if you dont know where the appropriate mobs are but you second character will go much faster. Group up and do the XP Item collections.

Yeah but you are acting like this is the norm, it's not...its the norm for elite perfect made groups that play 20 hours a day and their life revolves around the game. For the average Joe is probably is taking 40+ hours to get to 50. That being said, you will still be able to max out on a several characters (leveling wise, crafting wise, gearing wise) in a month if you are playing moderately. I'm pretty sure the first 50s that launch weekend had a /played time of closer to 30 to 35 hours in those two days (though there were rumors of a 13 hour played but I didn't see it in Hib).
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:53 PM by Gfxygames
Not everyone who plays this is retired. Many of us have a career with spouses and kids. 20 hours played to 50 would take most of us 2-3 weeks, possibly more for some people.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:53 PM by PingGuy
Zansobar wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:39 PM
People are maxing out in the first month in one realm (not in RR but they can get to RR5 in that time). Wiping is not a big deal...on Uthgard yes it would be a disaster - here not so much.

Wipes hurt more than they help. If the server is dying and they want to relaunch, ok, I could see that after several years. If they wipe regularly, on a schedule, I'm out. And why would I spend time leveling alts and templating them just to have them wiped? Seriously, wipes are a last resort option. They're bad until they are the only option, and then they are still the least worst, and not the best by any means.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:55 PM by Mac
Zansobar wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:39 PM
People are maxing out in the first month in one realm (not in RR but they can get to RR5 in that time). Wiping is not a big deal...on Uthgard yes it would be a disaster - here not so much.
This game went live 1 month and 1 day ago. It doesnt take a month to get to RR5. We have 35 players at RR 7 or higher today and 1 is RR8!

https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=all
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:05 PM by Mac
Gfxygames wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:53 PM
Not everyone who plays this is retired. Many of us have a career with spouses and kids. 20 hours played to 50 would take most of us 2-3 weeks, possibly more for some people.
It's cool that some people only play a few hours per week. It's also cool that some people play several hours every day. It's important for the game to find some exponential curve so that folks who have less time to play and new players who didn't find the game in the first month have a path to enjoy the game.

I created my Phoenix account in March 2018, I had level 50s on all 3 realms in Alpha. They were wiped, I had new level 50 chars in all 3 realms during beta. I KNEW how to level up quickly during the first weekend on live. So did thousands of others players.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:20 PM by kmark101
Both my melee characters took 36 hours to 50, with only last 1-2 levels in pbaoe groups. In the case of first character, you could still turn in +10 xp items after a server crash/reboot, in the case of second character the mob type xp bonuses were already in place, so I guess they even it out.

Now 36 hours to 50 might be only a "few hours" for ppl who can play 6-8 hours per day, but it's 18 days of play if you can only play 2 hours per day (considering everything goes smooth and you know where to go). I think it's perfect, not too much, not too few. Probably first time players or different classes will take around 45-50 hours to 50.

With this pace, you have a sense of accomplishment every single day. Paired with ROGs, it's a very enjoyable levelling experience where you see your character is getting stronger after every session. The complete opposite to Uth 1/2.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:34 PM by Afuldan
kmark101 wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:20 PM
Both my melee characters took 36 hours to 50, with only last 1-2 levels in pbaoe groups. In the case of first character, you could still turn in +10 xp items after a server crash/reboot, in the case of second character the mob type xp bonuses were already in place, so I guess they even it out.

Now 36 hours to 50 might be only a "few hours" for ppl who can play 6-8 hours per day, but it's 18 days of play if you can only play 2 hours per day (considering everything goes smooth and you know where to go). I think it's perfect, not too much, not too few. Probably first time players or different classes will take around 45-50 hours to 50.

With this pace, you have a sense of accomplishment every single day. Paired with ROGs, it's a very enjoyable levelling experience where you see your character is getting stronger after every session. The complete opposite to Uth 1/2.

My warrior took a few minutes over 48hrs, including metalwork 1300, woodwork 1300, clothworking 1200 and leatherworking 1100.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:36 PM by rubaduck
We have a saying in Norway which is more or less translated to "You can't eat your cake, and have it too" (yes I used a variation).

To put this in to context, Phoenix is an experiment where developers takes a very loved classic patch, and improves on it with quality of life changes and class balance.

QoL means so much, it is where everything becomes complicated because the devs wants us to have an authentic feeling of playing the "real deal" but still give us some levy to make it not be so tedious as live was back then. The very first QoL change on Phoenix, and maybe even the most drastic is the XP change. Yes, levling up is much quicker here compared to live back then, but is it too fast? The time it takes to level up a character is relative because everyone has different play times. The most hardcore players will be able to rush, they know the game in and out and most likely played on Beta to get XP routes as well as gearing experience with the ROG system. The hardcore players will always get to the finish line first, regardless if it takes 24 hours to level up, 3 days to level up or more. What the devs did was to add the kill tasks, which spread people all around the world. They also later upgraded this to create even more diversity to xp camps. However, with a group you can pretty much level up to 50 with an average playtime of 24 hours, which in this day and age for a game that is so old is a good pace.

The RoG system and Phoenix feathers is also a great QoL but this is also the most alien feature to most old school players. Let's not beat around the bush here, the majority of players wants to gear up as quick as possible to get in on the action in RvR. Daoc has never been a great pve game, where the most advanced feature is that most PVE content can be zerged, a big difference to the more new and shiny pve games like World of Warcraft. We, the players, want our templates done and just go straight out in to action, and the most fair way PVE wise is to have a loot system based on credit, and then spend a currency to obtain the item of choice(s). This means every new character created needs to have enough currency (feathers) to buy the item they want for every character they create which ensures that the pve content will keep on going over a long period of time. It won't last forever, but the server won't last forever either. The RoG's are there to be a bridge to close the gaps. The concept creates a marked where "every item has a value to someone", which means every drop is "usable" instead of just becoming vendor trash. It is both a pain in the ass as well as a blessing. It also makes templating VERY easy which is what we want. Dum down gearing mechanics that are tedious and slow to help new and old players more understand the fundamentals of the stats in the game.

On the other side, RVR is still the same zergy slaughter fest but with a twist. Instead of having one designated zone(Emain.......); like it was in OF where everyone just ran to to get zerged down, Phoenix rotates the Zerg. It gives everyone a way to catch up and be a part of the game regardless if they are suckysucky or good. The reward from RvR tasks are reduced the higher realm rank you get. As an example From RR1 to RR3 a task rewards you with 1500 realm points. It is not much, but sure a lot more then a kill when grouped. By the time you're realm rank 5 the task reward is reduced to 915 realm points which means you can't rely on it to be a stable source of gaining realm levels because you need to actually kill stuff to keep the momentum up. This is a QoL to give any player an incentive to go to RvR regardless of skill level, but also learn from it and become better at it. Also the RP gained from a kill, while fully grouped evens out to 2-300 realmpoints per kill if you're not zerging. Going less then 8 man will reward more, but with a much higher risk. Again, hardcore players will be well above RR6 after a week or two, but the stragglers will keep up. This is a good change, it makes people want to RvR, and it makes people want to RvR in different ways to get the sweet arpees. It is a much slower system compared to live today, and it is a nice pace for most casual players to actually gain some realm strength.

So, do the devs listen too much? No, they have a vision they share with the majority of the server. They are willing to take risky decisions, and are quick to rework them if they backfire. They try and fail, all the time just to make the server improve on quality of life, without touching the core mechanics. It's not too much, it's not too little, it is their pace and everyone following it so far is enjoying it. The mere few who don't enjoy it has other options to choose from, but I have a feeling like this is a banter just banter without giving constructive feedback. We don't want pure 1.65, we want it modified to make it both casual and hardcore friendly and in my opinion the devs has managed to make that happen spot on.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:05 PM by Mac
rubaduck wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:36 PM
We have a saying in Norway which is more or less translated to "You can't eat your cake, and have it too" (yes I used a variation).

To put this in to context, Phoenix is an experiment where developers takes a very loved classic patch, and improves on it with quality of life changes and class balance.

QoL means so much, it is where everything becomes complicated because the devs wants us to have an authentic feeling of playing the "real deal" but still give us some levy to make it not be so tedious as live was back then. The very first QoL change on Phoenix, and maybe even the most drastic is the XP change. Yes, levling up is much quicker here compared to live back then, but is it too fast? The time it takes to level up a character is relative because everyone has different play times. The most hardcore players will be able to rush, they know the game in and out and most likely played on Beta to get XP routes as well as gearing experience with the ROG system. The hardcore players will always get to the finish line first, regardless if it takes 24 hours to level up, 3 days to level up or more. What the devs did was to add the kill tasks, which spread people all around the world. They also later upgraded this to create even more diversity to xp camps. However, with a group you can pretty much level up to 50 with an average playtime of 24 hours, which in this day and age for a game that is so old is a good pace.

The RoG system and Phoenix feathers is also a great QoL but this is also the most alien feature to most old school players. Let's not beat around the bush here, the majority of players wants to gear up as quick as possible to get in on the action in RvR. Daoc has never been a great pve game, where the most advanced feature is that most PVE content can be zerged, a big difference to the more new and shiny pve games like World of Warcraft. We, the players, want our templates done and just go straight out in to action, and the most fair way PVE wise is to have a loot system based on credit, and then spend a currency to obtain the item of choice(s). This means every new character created needs to have enough currency (feathers) to buy the item they want for every character they create which ensures that the pve content will keep on going over a long period of time. It won't last forever, but the server won't last forever either. The RoG's are there to be a bridge to close the gaps. The concept creates a marked where "every item has a value to someone", which means every drop is "usable" instead of just becoming vendor trash. It is both a pain in the ass as well as a blessing. It also makes templating VERY easy which is what we want. Dum down gearing mechanics that are tedious and slow to help new and old players more understand the fundamentals of the stats in the game.

On the other side, RVR is still the same zergy slaughter fest but with a twist. Instead of having one designated zone(Emain.......); like it was in OF where everyone just ran to to get zerged down, Phoenix rotates the Zerg. It gives everyone a way to catch up and be a part of the game regardless if they are suckysucky or good. The reward from RvR tasks are reduced the higher realm rank you get. As an example From RR1 to RR3 a task rewards you with 1500 realm points. It is not much, but sure a lot more then a kill when grouped. By the time you're realm rank 5 the task reward is reduced to 915 realm points which means you can't rely on it to be a stable source of gaining realm levels because you need to actually kill stuff to keep the momentum up. This is a QoL to give any player an incentive to go to RvR regardless of skill level, but also learn from it and become better at it. Also the RP gained from a kill, while fully grouped evens out to 2-300 realmpoints per kill if you're not zerging. Going less then 8 man will reward more, but with a much higher risk. Again, hardcore players will be well above RR6 after a week or two, but the stragglers will keep up. This is a good change, it makes people want to RvR, and it makes people want to RvR in different ways to get the sweet arpees. It is a much slower system compared to live today, and it is a nice pace for most casual players to actually gain some realm strength.

So, do the devs listen too much? No, they have a vision they share with the majority of the server. They are willing to take risky decisions, and are quick to rework them if they backfire. They try and fail, all the time just to make the server improve on quality of life, without touching the core mechanics. It's not too much, it's not too little, it is their pace and everyone following it so far is enjoying it. The mere few who don't enjoy it has other options to choose from, but I have a feeling like this is a banter just banter without giving constructive feedback. We don't want pure 1.65, we want it modified to make it both casual and hardcore friendly and in my opinion the devs has managed to make that happen spot on.

Very well written post. I agree that the devs here take some risks but they're quick to fix things that don't work.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:03 PM by XLGrandma
have to keep in mind the average person playing this new server is like 35.....so alot less free time which means QOL adjustments and faster leveling are definitely appreciated.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:06 PM by defiasbandit
XLGrandma wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:03 PM
have to keep in mind the average person playing this new server is like 35.....so alot less free time which means QOL adjustments and faster leveling are definitely appreciated.

This whole argument about players nowadays having less free time due to whatever reasons is nonsense.

Leveling in Classic DAOC is boring. It was slightly more fun in 2001, because players were new to MMOs. It is about having fun, not grinding for months for the hope of it eventually being all worthwhile.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:13 PM by PingGuy
defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:06 PM
This whole argument about players nowadays having less free time due to whatever reasons is nonsense.

It's not nonsense. I was 26 in 2001, I'm 43 now. I was single in 2001, I'm married with two kids now. I have less free time now. I have less tolerance for grinds now. It's literally true, and for many people who are in similar situations as myself.

defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:06 PM
Leveling in Classic DAOC is boring. It was slightly more fun in 2001, because players were new to MMOs. It is about having fun, not grinding for months for the hope of it eventually being all worthwhile.

That may be true, but what does that have to do with the statement above, and what is your point?
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:18 PM by defiasbandit
PingGuy wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:13 PM
defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:06 PM
This whole argument about players nowadays having less free time due to whatever reasons is nonsense.

It's not nonsense. I was 26 in 2001, I'm 43 now. I was single in 2001, I'm married with two kids now. I have less free time now. I have less tolerance for grinds now. It's literally true, and for many people who are in similar situations as myself.

defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:06 PM
Leveling in Classic DAOC is boring. It was slightly more fun in 2001, because players were new to MMOs. It is about having fun, not grinding for months for the hope of it eventually being all worthwhile.

That may be true, but what does that have to do with the statement above, and what is your point?

And there were tons of players your age playing DAOC in 2001. Reason the game was so slow back then, was because developers figured they could get more months of subscription time out of the playerbase through the leveling process. The leveling largely was the content.

The leveling in Classic was so timeconsuming and often just boring.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:22 PM by PingGuy
defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:18 PM
And there were tons of players your age playing DAOC in 2001. Reason the game was so slow back then, was because developers figured they could get more months of subscription time out of the playerbase through the leveling process. The leveling largely was the content.

The leveling in Classic was so timeconsuming and often just boring.

All of that just agrees with my point, which was pointing out that your assessment was incorrect. So I go back to, "what is your point?" Why is the less free time argument nonsense?
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:24 PM by Mac
XLGrandma wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:03 PM
have to keep in mind the average person playing this new server is like 35.....so alot less free time which means QOL adjustments and faster leveling are definitely appreciated.
What's your source for the average being 35? It might be true but it's likely way off. In 2004 the average age was 30 something according to Mark J. So, 15 years later wouldn't you expect the average age to be mid 40s?
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:25 PM by defiasbandit
PingGuy wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:22 PM
defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:18 PM
And there were tons of players your age playing DAOC in 2001. Reason the game was so slow back then, was because developers figured they could get more months of subscription time out of the playerbase through the leveling process. The leveling largely was the content.

The leveling in Classic was so timeconsuming and often just boring.

All of that just agrees with my point, which was pointing out that your assessment was incorrect. So I go back to, "what is your point?" Why is the less free time argument nonsense?

Because there were players of all ages playing classic DAOC. If anything the average age was older back then than the ones currently playing mmorpgs. The reason nobody wants to play Classic DAOC nowadays is because it is boring. It was boring back in 2001 for many players. There is a reason the game died, and why WoW took most of its players. I quit in 2003, because it was boring.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:30 PM by Mac
defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:06 PM
XLGrandma wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:03 PM
have to keep in mind the average person playing this new server is like 35.....so alot less free time which means QOL adjustments and faster leveling are definitely appreciated.

This whole argument about players nowadays having less free time due to whatever reasons is nonsense.

Leveling in Classic DAOC is boring. It was slightly more fun in 2001, because players were new to MMOs. It is about having fun, not grinding for months for the hope of it eventually being all worthwhile.

I have lots more free time today than I did in 2001 to 2004 when I played DAoC live. Back then I had a full time job and kids still living at home. Now I'm retired and my kids are grown. All you can say for sure about us old time DAoC players is we're 15 years older now. You can't draw any conclusions about the changes in the amount of free time we have.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:48 PM by PingGuy
defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:25 PM
Because there were players of all ages playing classic DAOC. If anything the average age was older back then than the ones currently playing mmorpgs. The reason nobody wants to play Classic DAOC nowadays is because it is boring. It was boring back in 2001 for many players. There is a reason the game died, and why WoW took most of its players. I quit in 2003, because it was boring.

It's all anecdotal of course, but I find the bulk of players in these kinds of games were in the range of teenagers up through their 30's when these games came out (EQ, DAoC, WoW, etc.). Not all of course, but it's generational. WoW brought in a lot of older players who never would have touched DAoC or EQ. There weren't a lot of people older than me playing video games back then. They missed the Atari/Nintendo revolution, but some did catch up as gaming became more prevalent in later years.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:52 PM by PingGuy
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:30 PM
I have lots more free time today than I did in 2001 to 2004 when I played DAoC live. Back then I had a full time job and kids still living at home. Now I'm retired and my kids are grown. All you can say for sure about us old time DAoC players is we're 15 years older now. You can't draw any conclusions about the changes in the amount of free time we have.

That really depends on what percentage of the players fall into which age ranges. Just because one old guy played DAoC in 2001 doesn't mean other people his age even had gaming on their radar at that point. There is no way to prove any of it of course, but I find that people born before 1975 are much less likely to have gotten into gaming. And for those that did, they came in later, with WoW, and the console wars. I see this topic discussed across many different games, not just MMO's, and lots of people point to less free time as a reason they "can't game like they used to."
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:59 PM by Estat
People dont quit because of a grind or xp being slow or whatever

People quit because they are bored

Everything here is easy mode, which can be translated to "boring very soon"

So there is an imminent danger of rapid population decline "soon". How soon? No idea. But i know people who already quit. I hope the server will last until May or even June so i can get some enjoyment out of RvR, but i wont hold my breath.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:21 PM by defiasbandit
Estat wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:59 PM
People dont quit because of a grind or xp being slow or whatever

People quit because they are bored

Everything here is easy mode, which can be translated to "boring very soon"

So there is an imminent danger of rapid population decline "soon". How soon? No idea. But i know people who already quit. I hope the server will last until May or even June so i can get some enjoyment out of RvR, but i wont hold my breath.

Well I don't think making leveling take longer will retain more players. I think having more ways to customize your character through itemization and reskins will keep the PvE crowd longer. Fortunately, there is a lot of untapped PvE content from later expansions.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:09 PM by relvinian
Let people make more toons and try other realms.

Easy for one toon is not all that easy if you want to make 3 or 4. Then you appreciate easy.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:12 AM by Warjon
defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:21 PM
Estat wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:59 PM
People dont quit because of a grind or xp being slow or whatever

People quit because they are bored

Everything here is easy mode, which can be translated to "boring very soon"

So there is an imminent danger of rapid population decline "soon". How soon? No idea. But i know people who already quit. I hope the server will last until May or even June so i can get some enjoyment out of RvR, but i wont hold my breath.

Well I don't think making leveling take longer will retain more players. I think having more ways to customize your character through itemization and reskins will keep the PvE crowd longer. Fortunately, there is a lot of untapped PvE content from later expansions.

And here is the problem DAOC has faced on every server, ever!

Two different opinions and I do not agree with either!! Having played all servers and betas I just can't do more than make thid and BG toons. When I think of grinding from 24 to 50 my brain goes numb. Tasking there? lol, Making my 10th bomber and standing their clicking my AOE for 26 levels? lol. All that just to get to template for RvR. whew. I doubt I will ever see the Frontier. BGs Rule!! Or give me Mordred again! hehehe
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:28 AM by Frieza
I tried to read the first post to understand what this all about (even after reading most comments, im still unsure if the message has been relayed of if everyone went off on their tangent? lol). but the idea and logic youre pulling together is flawed. Even your most recent post "you cant draw conclusions on peoples free time in 2001 to now".....

well yes you can. The vast majority of players in 2001-2004 were in the age group of 14-25. So at most they are 40 (i.e. not retired like yourself). Therefore its highly possibly the majority are in the life stages of having kids/ very high up on the food chain i.e. work demands.

So yes we can draw conclusions for that as id say being retired and heaps of free time puts you in the minority

Outside of that, i really dont understand the point but ill leave you with this:

If the server is hitting 4k players, and there is activity on the forums (good or bad), then its easily measured the activity and i can tell you now, its not going down.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:05 AM by Mac
Frieza wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:28 AM
I tried to read the first post to understand what this all about (even after reading most comments, im still unsure if the message has been relayed of if everyone went off on their tangent? lol). but the idea and logic youre pulling together is flawed. Even your most recent post "you cant draw conclusions on peoples free time in 2001 to now".....

well yes you can. The vast majority of players in 2001-2004 were in the age group of 14-25. So at most they are 40 (i.e. not retired like yourself). Therefore its highly possibly the majority are in the life stages of having kids/ very high up on the food chain i.e. work demands.

So yes we can draw conclusions for that as id say being retired and heaps of free time puts you in the minority

Outside of that, i really dont understand the point but ill leave you with this:

If the server is hitting 4k players, and there is activity on the forums (good or bad), then its easily measured the activity and i can tell you now, its not going down.

I don't claim that most players here are retired, I'm pointing out that SOME are, just like some are teens, etc. But your claim that "The vast majority of players in 2001-2004 were in the age group of 14-25" just isn't true. Mark Jacobs said that the average age back then was in the mid 30s. Sure, there were SOME teens, but in my guild we wouldn't accept anyone under 18 (except for childern on members). Wow was designed for teens, but old time MMOs like DAoC were designed for adults.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:15 AM by Durgrim
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:30 PM
defiasbandit wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:06 PM
XLGrandma wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:03 PM
have to keep in mind the average person playing this new server is like 35.....so alot less free time which means QOL adjustments and faster leveling are definitely appreciated.
Now I'm retired and my kids are grown.

Wow...you can retire with 45?
Nice one
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:17 AM by Durgrim
so nothing more to say on the topic of the post? Close it Gil
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:21 AM by Mac
Durgrim wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:15 AM
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:30 PM
Now I'm retired and my kids are grown.

Wow...you can retire with 45?
Nice one
I lived and worked in America. America doesn't have mandatory retirement ages. People can retire in their 30s or work into their 80s. I knew many people in Silicon Valley who retired while quite young.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:29 AM by Durgrim
Mac wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:21 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:15 AM
Mac wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:30 PM
Now I'm retired and my kids are grown.

Wow...you can retire with 45?
Nice one
I lived and worked in America. America doesn't have mandatory retirement ages. People can retire in their 30s or work into their 80s. I knew many people in Silicon Valley who retired while quite young.

gj! are you able to survive after 15 years of work?
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:06 AM by Estat
relvinian wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:09 PM
Let people make more toons and try other realms.

Easy for one toon is not all that easy if you want to make 3 or 4. Then you appreciate easy.
Im super casual (two small kids) and i got 4 templated lvl 50 on uthgard in two realms.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:00 PM by Sepplord
Estat wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:06 AM
relvinian wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:09 PM
Let people make more toons and try other realms.

Easy for one toon is not all that easy if you want to make 3 or 4. Then you appreciate easy.
Im super casual (two small kids) and i got 4 templated lvl 50 on uthgard in two realms.

Could you define "super casual" for us?
Because i believe the definitions have a HUGE range here.

And do those templates include "must have" feather items, or are they simple all-cap-temps without special proccs/charges?
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:04 PM by Chimosh
This post is pointless.

The vide on the server is good. The vibe on discord is good.

The vibe from the devs is good.

The communication is good
The XP leveling is good
The RvR tasks are ok

There are so many positives that even if you don't like some things that have been implemented, its still outweighed by majority.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:06 PM by Durgrim
Chimosh wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:04 PM
This post is pointless.

The vide on the server is good. The vibe on discord is good.

The vibe from the devs is good.

The communication is good
The XP leveling is good
The RvR tasks are ok

There are so many positives that even if you don't like some things that have been implemented, its still outweighed by majority.

+1
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:09 PM by Mac
Chimosh wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:04 PM
This post is pointless.

The vide on the server is good. The vibe on discord is good.

The vibe from the devs is good.

The communication is good
The XP leveling is good
The RvR tasks are ok

There are so many positives that even if you don't like some things that have been implemented, its still outweighed by majority.

Which post did you mean? The post which started this thread? I agree that MANY things here are very good. I wanted a discussion on the QoL after leveling to 50 and templating.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:24 PM by Estat
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:00 PM
Estat wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:06 AM
relvinian wrote:
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:09 PM
Then you appreciate easy.
Im super casual (two small kids) and i got 4 templated lvl 50 on uthgard in two realms.
And do those templates include "must have" feather items, or are they simple all-cap-temps without special proccs/charges?
These chars are on uthgard so they certainly include no feather items.

Here i just finished my first template, healer with TG chest and +str +dex +qui +con +pie +power and +skills, and i didnt even really try to max it out that way, thats how easy it is.

[/quote]
Could you define "super casual" for us?
[/quote]
I am the guy the forum campaigners for more easy are always talking about who got less time because of full time employment and family. I dont play until the children are sleeping (which is ofc usually later than planned), i like to spend some evenings with my wife instead of playing, i miss some playtime for business travel, deadlines etc. and i usually dont waste my time by posting on forums unless im sick at home like now.

Still i dont appreciate easy.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:31 PM by Sepplord
thanks for the answer, i had mistakenly thought you have 4 templated lvl50 chars on phoenix, and was a bit confused how soemone would manage that and still be super casual
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:50 PM by Ardri
This may be the dumbest thread i've seen on the forums. The guys name is Gil Datroll...

The population has continued to go up for the first month of the server and just broke 4k+ last weekend. Please close this idiotic thread.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:26 PM by labova
If the server is to succeed, succeed in terms of a viable population, then you need to cater for the casual gamer. They are the ones who will swell the numbers. I think the devs have done an excellent job in this regard.

The server allows a progression that suits someone with a busy real life, and it makes it easy, yes, easy to to get out in the frontier and participate in RvR.

The devs need to continue as they have, and they will have a viable and living community. Precisely because the current ruleset allows casual gamers to enjoy the game.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:34 PM by Gfxygames
Sort of on topic, sorry if this stears from it but I didn't want to open a new thread. Anyone else concerned this 2-factor authentication is going to drop the pop by 1/4? I am concerned many people don't remember the email they used or the password to whatever email & also don't check the forums enough to know what to do to remedy it. Damn hackers
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:54 PM by Patron
Close this plz... This is a toxic thread.
Phoenix is awesome and there is no need for a qolnerf.
And wth care for Uthgard?
Mac/Gil/Cody should better stop to speak about servermanagement since Genesis and the intercession for Uthgard. You know nothing...

Just play and enjoy the better freeshard for years
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:56 PM by Patron
Gfxygames wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:34 PM
Sort of on topic, sorry if this stears from it but I didn't want to open a new thread. Anyone else concerned this 2-factor authentication is going to drop the pop by 1/4? I am concerned many people don't remember the email they used or the password to whatever email & also don't check the forums enough to know what to do to remedy it. Damn hackers

Staff should a newspost for this.
Entering the game is nothing a player need to search in the moshpit we call forum.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:35 PM by Mac
Ardri wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:50 PM
This may be the dumbest thread i've seen on the forums. The guys name is Gil Datroll...

The population has continued to go up for the first month of the server and just broke 4k+ last weekend. Please close this idiotic thread.

I have been Gil DaTroll since 2002. My character is a zerker troll
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:19 AM by Karqa
You are just uthgard's troll so topic should be closed since everyone is happy with the server and numbers are increasing. We dont need forum drama, thats what he is tryin to do.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:20 AM by Stoertebecker
Karqa wrote:
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:19 AM
You are just uthgard's troll so topic should be closed since everyone is happy with the server and numbers are increasing. We dont need forum drama, thats what he is tryin to do.

I would do the same if i was very close with the Uthgard staff or part of it...maybe.

Playing Phoenix and complaining about it. There isn`t much to complain.

What said Abydos to me (and others aswell) a while ago? If you don`t like it, dont play it. Deja-Vu.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 10:18 AM by Mac
Stoertebecker wrote:
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:20 AM
Karqa wrote:
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:19 AM
You are just uthgard's troll so topic should be closed since everyone is happy with the server and numbers are increasing. We dont need forum drama, thats what he is tryin to do.

I would do the same if i was very close with the Uthgard staff or part of it...maybe.

Playing Phoenix and complaining about it. There isn`t much to complain.

What said Abydos to me (and others aswell) a while ago? If you don`t like it, dont play it. Deja-Vu.

I DO like Phoenix. I spend 5 times as much time here as on Uthgard. Phoenix staff have done many things right. I'm concerned about the ease of play AFTER leveling and templating not being good for the long term of the server. How is it wrong to bring this up for discussion?

BTW, the folks that say. 'don't change anything, we LIKE easy mode' seem to be the vast majority here in this thread. So, MAYBE the staff is right in their thinking. If the majority of the players want instant gratification, why not give it to em?
Fri 15 Feb 2019 10:20 AM by Uthred
Locked as the insults are taking over.

I guess all has been said. Lets just agree to disagree everyone.

We as the staff tried to find a way between "super casual" and "super hardcore". Browsing the forum you will find a lot of people that like the current implementation on Phoenix, but also some people that think it is too easy and some that say, it is too hard. My personal guess is that you cant make everyone happy.

We are always open for new suggestions, but that doesnt mean that we are implementing every suggestion that was ever made on the forum. Most of our QoLs were decided Pre-Alpha and we as a team decided about them as we (except one) are all active players for a very long time, many of us since live beta. It was the teams experience and background as players who made the basics for this server and it would be totally stupid to not listen to other players as we all know both sides of the story. But on the other hand we also learned that we cant and shouldnt listen to every suggestion. I guess the main "problem" is to find the balance that will suit the most players.

We are happy about the actual population and popularity but we are also aware of the fact that it will not stay like this forever. But we will do as much as possible to keep this server alive and a home for as many players as long as possible.

To you as a player my advice is to simply enjoy it and if you have any ideas lets us know via the suggestions forum.
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