Hunter class balance suggestions

Started 14 Feb 2019
by skulllz
in Suggestions
Since I've noticed in beta that custom changes do apply to some classes rather than acting on a strict OF ruleset, I figured I would pass along my observations with the hunter class, as well as archers and stealthers, in a general sense, in the hopes that developers and players may see some potential to benefit the class at hopefully no added imbalance cost to the rest of the game :-)

Specs:

For one, there is next to no reason (and I'm not exaggerating) that a player at the Phoenix/OF patch level would choose the hunter, specifically, over the other 2 archer options unless they were tied to the realm of midgard by either a set group who rolled there / the realm timer / some other reason. Fact is, beastcraft and spear are the 2 unique lines that a hunter gets compared to a vastly better melee line from rangers (who also get self buffs) and shield line from scouts (full 9s slam at this patch level is absolutely devastating and incredible, as is engage). Even at the absolute highest spec in beastcraft, the last summoned pet stops at 32 (there is never a better summoned one - only 2 charms that are highly unusable unless they were opened up to more mob types). Also, the highest (red) dex/quick buff from BC still doesn't even touch the benefit from what you get with an item that has the same /charge. The other buff is an AF buff, which also falls short of the charge, which is a free /use from the epic vest. By comparison, rangers get a base strength buff from their pathfinding line (there is no base str charge item that I am aware of, so even low values/spec in this line will have a superior increase to str than that of the alchemy potions). The other AF and d/q buff in the line can be replaced by charges or potions, as with the hunter, if needed. Both classes get speedburst, which is very useful - there is no denying this, and it is one of very few useful tools the hunter has access to at this patch level where most classes do not get an inherent speed ability. Scouts do not get this by comparison. Lastly, rangers also get a dmg add buff in their path line, which there are only very few items you can access to grant this buff (which typically only lasts 20s - 1 min, at most). This gives them a second dmg dealing buff over hunter for which there is no viable replacement in item or potion form.

How it Plays in Rvr:

As we mentioned, the speedburst is a nice tool and I believe (even at a 10 minute re-use) it could be considered on par with usefulness of let's say something like a free survival RA that would've cost about 10 ra skill points. Taking a look at other classes, scout has a spammable stun and engage with no cooldown, as well as rangers having better positional styles / buffs, while keeping the same useful speedburst. To me, there is only one uniqueness tied to a hunter that would make any noticeable contribution if it weren't so bland (although, any balance changes in this area would have to be lightly tread so as not to overly imbalance the class). I'm speaking about the pet, of course. We're talking about a pet with no spells, range, cc, styles, commands (that you can /say) or viable buffs (since the str/con from beastcraft has a cast-time that you almost will never get off in combat). On top of this, the hunter pet never sprints towards its target and can be easily outran with minimal effort (no hastener needed, only an invig pot). By comparison, even much lower level druid/theurg/animist/chanter/etc. pets can DD, snare (chanter/theurg), stun (druid/theurg), resist debuff (chanter), intercept (spiritmaster), and/or cast a mixture of debuffing and supportive spells (BD sub pets). There is seemingly no end to the usefulness and viability to most every other pet summon in this game at this patch level over the boring hunter's option (not even counting pet charming classes). Even necro "pets" will sprint and continue to melee their targets, dming them while the target is on sprint (yes, it's true). Before we get ahead of ourselves, I still understand that being a stealther class means the hunter has access to pick and choose its targets and/or fights, which most of these classes can't do, and in no way do I suggest a multitude of pet changes or class alterations, such as some that have gone through in recent years on the live Ywain server (the pets over there are currently over the top, if you want my honest opinion). Instead of the stun, snare style, disease(?), enrage command that adds ferocity (dmg) and other things that the ywain version of the beastcraft pet can do, my simple request would be that it could at least sprint towards its target here on Phoenix (even if that were something that occurred only after the pet went out of combat chasing for 10s+). Otherwise, another option could be to make the str/con buff instant cast and/or give just *one* and only one of the cc abilities mentioned above, like either a very short duration stun or style snare. Of the options suggested, I'll admit I think the last one is a bit imbalanced for a server that doesn't have access to charge as an RA for tanks. I'd prefer a sprinting pet, at this point, than the cc-styling ones - even as someone playing the class.

Final suggestion (Stealth spec - Mastery of Stealth):

This would benefit more than just the hunter if considered, but I'd highly suggest making this archer-specific: adding stealth detection value to the base mastery of stealth skill that comes with speccing stealth here on phoenix. I like that MoS was added in the base stealth line as an incentive to train stealth beyond just the amount needed to cap with +template items to get 50 composite. Spending another 5 or 10 stealth to get another bump in MoS at the cost of lowering your dps or buffling specs is something I think worth choosing. The speed bonus in stealth with MoS makes stealthing in OF and getting across 3 zones bearable, so thank you. As I said, though, it would be nice if there even minimal units of in-game stealth detection added to this MoS. I would prefer if this were added to just archers, as mentioned, since assassins are literally the bane of any archer in a fair and clean fight (no exceptions, no arguments here - if the assassin finds the archer at this patch, the only option for any win is to speedburst away [hunter/ranger] or hope if you are on scout that the sin's purge is down when you go to slam... otherwise you will never win toe-to-toe in a melee fight). The problem is this scenario is all-too-common because the sin and archer typically see each other at the same time and distance from each other, which is currently 2 whole inches from their face, even with my hunter's 45 base stealth spec. Another argument for this bonus being exclusive for archers is that with NF RA ruleset being added, this means old RAs such as true sight and other situational things were taken away but not given back to the archer in NF form (which is the trainable MoS RA that comes with passive detection). So, essentially, this is no currently option to ever see other stealthers or your teammates beyond melee range. Again, I am not complaining about "free" non-RA MoS since it saves RA spec points and I like the speed bonus in stealth, but some detection bonus would help in situations against the one class that truly has no problem facing off against archers, aka sins.

========================================
TL;DR

the beastcraft line is severely lacking - the hunter pet is simply the worst pet by design (no abilities) and by code (out-sprintable) - the only unique buffs a hunter can access are easily replaced by items, while the other 2 archer types don't necessarily have viable replacements for their unique lines - MoS could easily be tweaked to be beneficial stealth detection for archers to see deadly assassins (even if toned down from the live counterpart game units).

Thank you for giving any thought :-)
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:46 AM by Druth
Archers only needs high stealth detection so they are not food for assassins, and stealthers have a direct counter.

Apart from that they are all fine.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:21 AM by Durgrim
After having myself playing a Hunter and creating as well as reading a couple of other archer posts I sum up as following:

No need for change. There is absolutely no need to balance every class 1on1 to the other counterpart. Based on this logic, you might want to give every class the ability to level and farm as good as with other classes.

Try to see it in the context of all other realm's classes and armor types and playstyles on the battlefield and help yourself by thinking of R8 Hunter we got on this beautiful server. There must be something that he is doing right what all other Rangers and Scouts are doing wrong


PS:
Furthermore with level 45 I was hitting 50ish enemies between 115 and 200 damage(noncrit) depending on armor type and maybe temp (not for sure)...at level 45 vs. 50!
What the heck do we want actually? Firing every 3s 200 dmg on an enemy, who is is 2200 afar paired with the ability to enter the fight whenever it fits ME from stealth....cmon....really
I am fully happy with what it is now. I do not have the expectation to be the big 1vsX guy.....I see my role in having fun wherever I want and whenever I want on the battlefield.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:31 AM by Sepplord
implementing MOS-detection only for archers is one of the most ridicolous suggestions i have seen in these discussion-threads about archers.
Additionally i believe better stealth-detection just encourages stealthzerging even more

Imo an Archers job isn't to solo through milegates or other chokepoints without fear, and making them direct counters to assassins is neither their role nor would it make sense to be able to pick all your fights AND have longer range to deliver damage than any other class in the game


Make Archers better in Archery if they need tweaks...
-decrease arrow flightspeed for example (delays targets getting aware)
-make volley hit stealthed targets
-give them quickshot (analogue to casters quickcast)
-let longshot penetrate AND remove bladeturns (including selfcasted ones)

there are loads of possibilities (if a archer buff is needed, that is) but extending their niche into being the king of the stealthwar in combination with his ranged abilities would be bad decision imo
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:51 AM by inoeth
Fully support OP!
When i read "think of hunter at rr8, he will be overpowered" all i can say is LOL.
Maybe think of any other class at rr8 are they not significantly stronger than with rr1? What argument is that?
"Mos encourages stealth zerg even more" - are there actual stealth zergs? Ive not seen any so far. And even if, what is the problem? Everybody is zerging here.
"Imo hunter should not be played solo" - yes thats your opinion, but who gives a damn?
"Hunter is fine, no change needed 200 dmg every 3s is enough" - what about assassins hit for 300 every 1.5s or casters hitting for 500 every 1.5s..... Can you see how op archers are?

Why do some ppl always want some classes to be unplayable? I guess thats for their own benefit to get the easy rp.
Hunter is a one legged cripple atm, where on the other side assassins basicly have 4 arms what is fair about this?
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:56 AM by Durgrim
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:51 AM
When i read "think of hunter at rr8, he will be overpowered" all i can say is LOL. - no one said that. Stick to the written word.

Hunter is a one legged cripple atm, where on the other side assassins basicly have 4 arms what is fair about this? Again, that's your opinion - I see it differently. Maybe then the class is not the right one for you, or you are not right player for the hunter
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:50 PM by Ganil
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:31 AM
-let longshot penetrate AND remove bladeturns (including selfcasted ones)

I think it's already the case. I tested Yesterday. However can't critshot out of longshot.

Note: it wasn't even enough to win against a caster.
Longshot => 250 damage
Critshot => 500 damage
Caster goes quickcast => I'm dead.

He was rr6 and probably had some PD. But still. Not even close ^^'.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:25 PM by Smilo
Druth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:46 AM
Archers only needs high stealth detection so they are not food for assassins, and stealthers have a direct counter.

Apart from that they are all fine.


This.

Stealth detection should be the same for all stealthers, or be tied to the stealth skill.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:29 PM by Sepplord
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:51 AM
yes thats your opinion, but who gives a damn?

It's a discussion forum, everyone here is just stating their opinion...
you too btw. and yours isn't more important than anyone elses
The difference is that while others state their opinion, you chose to misquote and/or misrepresent what they said and then trash it

Imo (yeah it's my opinion *gasp*) that makes your opinion worth less, since it proves you are unreasonable.


Ganil wrote:
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:31 AM
-let longshot penetrate AND remove bladeturns (including selfcasted ones)

I think it's already the case. I tested Yesterday. However can't critshot out of longshot.

Note: it wasn't even enough to win against a caster.
Longshot => 250 damage
Critshot => 500 damage
Caster goes quickcast => I'm dead.

He was rr6 and probably had some PD. But still. Not even close ^^'.

thanks for clearing that up
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:57 PM by jg777
Archers shouldn’t be a direct counter to assasins, that has never been their role so changing mastery of stealth on archers to be comparable to assasins is not a good idea to me. I agree that archer damage needs tweaking if anything, and I would agree Phoenix staff consider the hunter pet be able to sprint but with a 5 second delay or so, giving players time to react to the pet but unable to kite it out forever and/or as easily.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:05 PM by inoeth
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:57 PM
Archers shouldn’t be a direct counter to assasins, that has NEVER been their role so changing mastery of stealth on archers to be comparable to assasins is not a good idea to me. I agree that archer damage needs tweaking if anything, and I would agree Phoenix staff consider the hunter pet be able to sprint but with a 5 second delay or so, giving players time to react to the pet but unable to kite it out forever and/or as easily.

Lies
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:06 PM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:29 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:51 AM
yes thats your opinion, but who gives a damn?

It's a discussion forum, everyone here is just stating their opinion...
you too btw. and yours isn't more important than anyone elses
The difference is that while others state their opinion, you chose to misquote and/or misrepresent what they said and then trash it

Imo (yeah it's my opinion *gasp*) that makes your opinion worth less, since it proves you are unreasonable.


Ganil wrote:
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:31 AM
-let longshot penetrate AND remove bladeturns (including selfcasted ones)

I think it's already the case. I tested Yesterday. However can't critshot out of longshot.

Note: it wasn't even enough to win against a caster.
Longshot => 250 damage
Critshot => 500 damage
Caster goes quickcast => I'm dead.

He was rr6 and probably had some PD. But still. Not even close ^^'.

thanks for clearing that up

If it was not intended to play solo, why is it even possible? And why are there solo tasks available for hunters and why is there a solo title available to hinters? You can have millions of opinions about that but in fact it is just not true. So tell me what is an opinion worth that totally relys on feelings and not on fatcs. But i guess facts are not worth anymore these days.
I mean we are not discussing a new game thats going to be developed, it an old game that worked in a specific way for almost two decades and here the hunter class was cut in half. And thats not an opinion, that is a fact. Proof me wrong.
And again other classes got all their tools that were intended by the developers of daoc and even more, only archers were cut down.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:10 PM by jg777
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:05 PM
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:57 PM
Archers shouldn’t be a direct counter to assasins, that has NEVER been their role so changing mastery of stealth on archers to be comparable to assasins is not a good idea to me. I agree that archer damage needs tweaking if anything, and I would agree Phoenix staff consider the hunter pet be able to sprint but with a 5 second delay or so, giving players time to react to the pet but unable to kite it out forever and/or as easily.

Lies

If you’re going to make one liner statements like that just save your time and play DAoC instead, it’s utterly meaningless.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:18 PM by inoeth
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:10 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:05 PM
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:57 PM
Archers shouldn’t be a direct counter to assasins, that has NEVER been their role so changing mastery of stealth on archers to be comparable to assasins is not a good idea to me. I agree that archer damage needs tweaking if anything, and I would agree Phoenix staff consider the hunter pet be able to sprint but with a 5 second delay or so, giving players time to react to the pet but unable to kite it out forever and/or as easily.

Lies

If you’re going to make one liner statements like that just save your time and play DAoC instead, it’s utterly meaningless.

Well it is obviously wrong what you stated because archers had mos and pd and avoid pain and true sight and camuflage... And with all those tools they could hunt assassisn for almost two decades.... I dont get why ppl always try to deny that... Have you ever actually played this game?
You guys are making linear statements like "it was never intended" which is in fact not true!
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:35 PM by Sepplord
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:06 PM
If it was not intended to play solo, why is it even possible? And why are there solo tasks available for hunters and why is there a solo title available to hinters? You can have millions of opinions about that but in fact it is just not true. So tell me what is an opinion worth that totally relys on feelings and not on fatcs. But i guess facts are not worth anymore these days.
I mean we are not discussing a new game thats going to be developed, it an old game that worked in a specific way for almost two decades and here the hunter class was cut in half. And thats not an opinion, that is a fact. Proof me wrong.
And again other classes got all their tools that were intended by the developers of daoc and even more, only archers were cut down.

i am unsure why you are arguing another person opiniuon with me now...

If you have so good arguments against someone opinion, why would you reply with
yes thats your opinion, but who gives a damn?

You are just hurting your own credibility if you discuss things like that. Let your arguments do the convincing and people might start listening
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:41 PM by jg777
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:18 PM
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:10 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:05 PM
Lies

If you’re going to make one liner statements like that just save your time and play DAoC instead, it’s utterly meaningless.

Well it is obviously wrong what you stated because archers had mos and pd and avoid pain and true sight and camuflage... And with all those tools they could hunt assassisn for almost two decades.... I dont get why ppl always try to deny that... Have you ever actually played this game?
You guys are making linear statements like "it was never intended" which is in fact not true!

Could doesn’t mean should. There’s little reason to demand an archer should have the tools to hunt an assassin equally to an assassin doing the same. Archers need to be able to use their archer ability well, I’m completely unconcerned with their ability to hunt assassins as I’d argue til the sky falls that it’s not their intended class role.

I played early DAoC, I’ve little idea how the game progressed on the Live servers over the years- but this server isn’t intended to emulate the current Live servers either. Let’s get back to discussing the hunter class.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:49 PM by Horus
Yea not sure where OP is coming from. It has been proven that the Hunter has the highest melee dmg out put of archers with the pet...+ the interrupt and benefits of a pet. The archery range diff is inconsequential in 99% of the encounters. Also with spear and sword you can massage a more favorable dmg type vs enemy armor match up...also, there are many more squishy targets on Hib and Alb, as a hunter you have quite the target rich environment.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:10 PM by inoeth
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:41 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:18 PM
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:10 PM
If you’re going to make one liner statements like that just save your time and play DAoC instead, it’s utterly meaningless.

Well it is obviously wrong what you stated because archers had mos and pd and avoid pain and true sight and camuflage... And with all those tools they could hunt assassisn for almost two decades.... I dont get why ppl always try to deny that... Have you ever actually played this game?
You guys are making linear statements like "it was never intended" which is in fact not true!

Could doesn’t mean should. There’s little reason to demand an archer should have the tools to hunt an assassin equally to an assassin doing the same. Archers need to be able to use their archer ability well, I’m completely unconcerned with their ability to hunt assassins as I’d argue til the sky falls that it’s not their intended class role.

I played early DAoC, I’ve little idea how the game progressed on the Live servers over the years- but this server isn’t intended to emulate the current Live servers either. Let’s get back to discussing the hunter class.

if you really had played back in early daoc times, you should know that hunters had the tools and they dont have them here.
"There’s little reason to demand an archer should have the tools to hunt an assassin" so they also should not have access to ip purge mopain aug dex aug str and all the stuff that tweaks melee? do you even believe what you say? i mean its obvious that this is just not true.
"but this server isn’t intended to emulate the current Live servers" true but still we have NF RAs...
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:11 PM by inoeth
Horus wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:49 PM
Yea not sure where OP is coming from. It has been proven that the Hunter has the highest melee dmg out put of archers with the pet...+ the interrupt and benefits of a pet. The archery range diff is inconsequential in 99% of the encounters. Also with spear and sword you can massage a more favorable dmg type vs enemy armor match up...also, there are many more squishy targets on Hib and Alb, as a hunter you have quite the target rich environment.

yes in paper daoc, i invite you to lvl a hunter and try that yourself.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:17 PM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:35 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:06 PM
If it was not intended to play solo, why is it even possible? And why are there solo tasks available for hunters and why is there a solo title available to hinters? You can have millions of opinions about that but in fact it is just not true. So tell me what is an opinion worth that totally relys on feelings and not on fatcs. But i guess facts are not worth anymore these days.
I mean we are not discussing a new game thats going to be developed, it an old game that worked in a specific way for almost two decades and here the hunter class was cut in half. And thats not an opinion, that is a fact. Proof me wrong.
And again other classes got all their tools that were intended by the developers of daoc and even more, only archers were cut down.

i am unsure why you are arguing another person opiniuon with me now...

If you have so good arguments against someone opinion, why would you reply with
yes thats your opinion, but who gives a damn?

You are just hurting your own credibility if you discuss things like that. Let your arguments do the convincing and people might start listening

dude this is like someone would say "barack obama has never been the president of the usa" .... sure you can have this opinion, but that is not making it a fact, so why would someone give a damn about this "opinion" if its not even close to be true and why would someone waste his time explaining why obama has been the president?

can you follow my analogy?
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:33 PM by jg777
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:10 PM
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:41 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:18 PM
Well it is obviously wrong what you stated because archers had mos and pd and avoid pain and true sight and camuflage... And with all those tools they could hunt assassisn for almost two decades.... I dont get why ppl always try to deny that... Have you ever actually played this game?
You guys are making linear statements like "it was never intended" which is in fact not true!

Could doesn’t mean should. There’s little reason to demand an archer should have the tools to hunt an assassin equally to an assassin doing the same. Archers need to be able to use their archer ability well, I’m completely unconcerned with their ability to hunt assassins as I’d argue til the sky falls that it’s not their intended class role.

I played early DAoC, I’ve little idea how the game progressed on the Live servers over the years- but this server isn’t intended to emulate the current Live servers either. Let’s get back to discussing the hunter class.

if you really had played back in early daoc times, you should know that hunters had the tools and they dont have them here.
"There’s little reason to demand an archer should have the tools to hunt an assassin" so they also should not have access to ip purge mopain aug dex aug str and all the stuff that tweaks melee? do you even believe what you say? i mean its obvious that this is just not true.
"but this server isn’t intended to emulate the current Live servers" true but still we have NF RAs...

You’re conflating having RA’s to boost your ability to Melee as evidence you should be able to hunt Assassins well. I’d argue you should have the ability to defend yourself when an assassin attacks you, which increased Melee damage RA’s would assist with along with purge/ignore pain.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:00 PM by inoeth
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:33 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:10 PM
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:41 PM
Could doesn’t mean should. There’s little reason to demand an archer should have the tools to hunt an assassin equally to an assassin doing the same. Archers need to be able to use their archer ability well, I’m completely unconcerned with their ability to hunt assassins as I’d argue til the sky falls that it’s not their intended class role.

I played early DAoC, I’ve little idea how the game progressed on the Live servers over the years- but this server isn’t intended to emulate the current Live servers either. Let’s get back to discussing the hunter class.

if you really had played back in early daoc times, you should know that hunters had the tools and they dont have them here.
"There’s little reason to demand an archer should have the tools to hunt an assassin" so they also should not have access to ip purge mopain aug dex aug str and all the stuff that tweaks melee? do you even believe what you say? i mean its obvious that this is just not true.
"but this server isn’t intended to emulate the current Live servers" true but still we have NF RAs...

You’re conflating having RA’s to boost your ability to Melee as evidence you should be able to hunt Assassins well. I’d argue you should have the ability to defend yourself when an assassin attacks you, which increased Melee damage RA’s would assist with along with purge/ignore pain.

im not talking about a "boost" like things that have never been given to archers, i talk about abilities archers always had and trhat are taken away from them on phoenix, is it so hard to unterstand?
Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:01 PM by jg777
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:00 PM
jg777 wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:33 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:10 PM
if you really had played back in early daoc times, you should know that hunters had the tools and they dont have them here.
"There’s little reason to demand an archer should have the tools to hunt an assassin" so they also should not have access to ip purge mopain aug dex aug str and all the stuff that tweaks melee? do you even believe what you say? i mean its obvious that this is just not true.
"but this server isn’t intended to emulate the current Live servers" true but still we have NF RAs...

You’re conflating having RA’s to boost your ability to Melee as evidence you should be able to hunt Assassins well. I’d argue you should have the ability to defend yourself when an assassin attacks you, which increased Melee damage RA’s would assist with along with purge/ignore pain.

im not talking about a "boost" like things that have never been given to archers, i talk about abilities archers always had and trhat are taken away from them on phoenix, is it so hard to unterstand?

I’m not talking about boosting things that have never been given to Archers, nor did I think you meant that as well. We were both talking about RA’s that boosted Melee damage and/or tools to help in a melee fight.

Phoenix change how stealth works here, I imagine they didn’t add/removed RA’s related to stealth as well. The why should be asked of the Phoenix staff, I can’t provide that. However that’s an archer wide issue, we’re here to talk specifically Hunters and why/if they fare worse than their counter part Scout and Ranger, and if so what can be done to bring them on par with them. You seem to be fixated on dealing with Assassins and/or having your RA’s back that where taken away (which I believe are those related to stealth?). My answer essentially is appears to be working as intended on that front over all, and their boosts/fixes need to be focused elsewhere (for Hunters, their pet and/or archery line).

I understand where you are coming from, I just don’t agree with it.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:49 PM by Cadebrennus
I know this is a Hunter thread, but there are only two times my Ranger hasn't been able to fight back against Assassins.

1) post-August 2016 nerf patch on Live.
2) late beta 2018 to present launch on Phoenix.

All other times I've been able to hold my own at least 50/50 with a full melee spec. The two times listed above where I can't fight back against Assassins are even with a full melee spec.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:37 PM by skulllz
Durgrim wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:21 AM
After having myself playing a Hunter and creating as well as reading a couple of other archer posts I sum up as following:

No need for change. There is absolutely no need to balance every class 1on1 to the other counterpart. Based on this logic, you might want to give every class the ability to level and farm as good as with other classes.

Try to see it in the context of all other realm's classes and armor types and playstyles on the battlefield and help yourself by thinking of R8 Hunter we got on this beautiful server. There must be something that he is doing right what all other Rangers and Scouts are doing wrong


PS:
Furthermore with level 45 I was hitting 50ish enemies between 115 and 200 damage(noncrit) depending on armor type and maybe temp (not for sure)...at level 45 vs. 50!
What the heck do we want actually? Firing every 3s 200 dmg on an enemy, who is is 2200 afar paired with the ability to enter the fight whenever it fits ME from stealth....cmon....really
I am fully happy with what it is now. I do not have the expectation to be the big 1vsX guy.....I see my role in having fun wherever I want and whenever I want on the battlefield.

I'm still in the process of reading all replies and am not sure if this one has been addressed, but to point out a few things: the idea of my suggestion was not to imbalance, overtake, mimic the abilities of other classes and/or replace both realmmates and enemy counterparts in battle with the hunter. To do so would be me suggesting that the class receive abilities and tools it does not have already to make it similar to the others (like adding in a shield line or dual wield or making up buffs that never existed, etc.). I perfectly like the uniqueness of each class (even beyond archers and stealthers), which is why I only focused on suggesting that the innate hunter abilities be given a look so that they are even remotely, noticeably *decent* on any level in rvr. Aka, their pet and their MoS and their spear line are their unique lines/abilities, and right now all 3 are severely lacking. In comparison, a ranger has better buffs from its pathfinding and can also spec just simply 25 in any melee line to receive both back and side snare, side stun, AND evade stun. Hunter would need to spend 39 points in spear to get ONLY back stun. That is simply, mathematically imbalanced, no matter what your personal beliefs. The pet does not do any special ability nor sprint when other pets at this patch do. And MoS has the potential to save 2-3 seconds worth of in-game units of kiting against the most deadly class vs an archer without actually adding any dmg or absorption abilities to the class. All of these things were eventually noticed by mythic/broadsword and attended to, but too little too late. I'm only asking that this server not repeat the traditional hunter from OF that simply no one can disagree was pathetic. And, if you notice, the devs on phoenix seem way more attuned to what is appropriately balanced by going against strict OF form and giving skalds determination, as well as other things that were much needed for years. So, fingers crossed!

Oh, and to base the fact that there is one high realm rank person who plays this class so it must "be fine" is simply flawed logic beyond belief. Time allotted for mass play and tasks completed are not connected to balance in way, period. You have to know that. If my pac healer spent 24/7 completing free tasks solo by just tagging dominate points and suiciding at keep takes to achieve r7/8/9 would by no means indicate that the pac line is somehow strong for 1v1. And, lastly, I never mentioned or suggested an increase in bow damage as you finished by saying "what do we want", so I am not sure where that comment stems. I mentioned the MoS ability and beastcraft lines, mostly - I am perfectly fine with bow damage, which I have thoroughly tested among various archers since during the beta (I am not sure what your simplistic damage reports are referring to - a lvl 45 vs a 50 what? mob in pve? or a person in pvp? what type of class? what type of armor and arrow were involved? were they templated?). I ran the reports and made a thorough suggestion based on many findings through actual rvr practice. Most anyone who has done the same since actual 2002 will not have any disagreement that the hunter is the weakest of almost every class possible to select at this patch level - only that stealthers are annoying adders (I agree) would anyone vote for *not* allowing developers to give any attention to the class.

Thank you
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:53 PM by skulllz
inoeth wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:00 PM
im not talking about a "boost" like things that have never been given to archers, i talk about abilities archers always had and that are taken away from them on phoenix, is it so hard to unterstand?


this is kinda what I'm talking about, exactly. I couldn't have summed it up better - thank you Inoeth. There are countless abilities (passive and active - both RA and spec line trained) that are missing from phoenix on the hunter (archers in general) that helped hide them better, see other stealthers better at times, absorb more dmg, and the list goes on. I did not even argue for most of these - simply a slight retooling of things they already have here.

and if anyone wants to test the hunter's "awesome" melee on a server without reliable solo celerity options that their worst enemy counters can easily evade into a deadly stun, please be my guest and let me know how it goes realistically.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:13 PM by Ganil
I'm done with my scout. I'll reroll a nightshade tomorrow. I wanted to get rr5 but it won't do it.
I keep getting perfed by assassins, can't do anything against them, and I don't do enough damage with my bow against lv50.

^^

It's not a bad thing, the nightshade is the only stealther I never played. It's now time to fix that !
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:21 PM by cuuchulain79
I'm not an expert either, but around this time in DAoC did hunters get PD? It's just IP here? Is AP totally gone?

About celerity...is everybody only running haste pot? Or is there celerity procs too?

Was there ever an era where archers had no dodger, PD, AP?

I know their ace up the sleeve was always zephyr...

I'm rambling...new here...try to figure out what is a fun class :-)

Back in the day archer was the only stealther that could kill w/o buff bot, and DMG was pretty heavy even w/o it.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:11 AM by Cadebrennus
skulllz wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:37 PM
Durgrim wrote:
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:21 AM
After having myself playing a Hunter and creating as well as reading a couple of other archer posts I sum up as following:

No need for change. There is absolutely no need to balance every class 1on1 to the other counterpart. Based on this logic, you might want to give every class the ability to level and farm as good as with other classes.

Try to see it in the context of all other realm's classes and armor types and playstyles on the battlefield and help yourself by thinking of R8 Hunter we got on this beautiful server. There must be something that he is doing right what all other Rangers and Scouts are doing wrong


PS:
Furthermore with level 45 I was hitting 50ish enemies between 115 and 200 damage(noncrit) depending on armor type and maybe temp (not for sure)...at level 45 vs. 50!
What the heck do we want actually? Firing every 3s 200 dmg on an enemy, who is is 2200 afar paired with the ability to enter the fight whenever it fits ME from stealth....cmon....really
I am fully happy with what it is now. I do not have the expectation to be the big 1vsX guy.....I see my role in having fun wherever I want and whenever I want on the battlefield.

I'm still in the process of reading all replies and am not sure if this one has been addressed, but to point out a few things: the idea of my suggestion was not to imbalance, overtake, mimic the abilities of other classes and/or replace both realmmates and enemy counterparts in battle with the hunter. To do so would be me suggesting that the class receive abilities and tools it does not have already to make it similar to the others (like adding in a shield line or dual wield or making up buffs that never existed, etc.). I perfectly like the uniqueness of each class (even beyond archers and stealthers), which is why I only focused on suggesting that the innate hunter abilities be given a look so that they are even remotely, noticeably *decent* on any level in rvr. Aka, their pet and their MoS and their spear line are their unique lines/abilities, and right now all 3 are severely lacking. In comparison, a ranger has better buffs from its pathfinding and can also spec just simply 25 in any melee line to receive both back and side snare, side stun, AND evade stun. Hunter would need to spend 39 points in spear to get ONLY back stun. That is simply, mathematically imbalanced, no matter what your personal beliefs. The pet does not do any special ability nor sprint when other pets at this patch do. And MoS has the potential to save 2-3 seconds worth of in-game units of kiting against the most deadly class vs an archer without actually adding any dmg or absorption abilities to the class. All of these things were eventually noticed by mythic/broadsword and attended to, but too little too late. I'm only asking that this server not repeat the traditional hunter from OF that simply no one can disagree was pathetic. And, if you notice, the devs on phoenix seem way more attuned to what is appropriately balanced by going against strict OF form and giving skalds determination, as well as other things that were much needed for years. So, fingers crossed!

Oh, and to base the fact that there is one high realm rank person who plays this class so it must "be fine" is simply flawed logic beyond belief. Time allotted for mass play and tasks completed are not connected to balance in way, period. You have to know that. If my pac healer spent 24/7 completing free tasks solo by just tagging dominate points and suiciding at keep takes to achieve r7/8/9 would by no means indicate that the pac line is somehow strong for 1v1. And, lastly, I never mentioned or suggested an increase in bow damage as you finished by saying "what do we want", so I am not sure where that comment stems. I mentioned the MoS ability and beastcraft lines, mostly - I am perfectly fine with bow damage, which I have thoroughly tested among various archers since during the beta (I am not sure what your simplistic damage reports are referring to - a lvl 45 vs a 50 what? mob in pve? or a person in pvp? what type of class? what type of armor and arrow were involved? were they templated?). I ran the reports and made a thorough suggestion based on many findings through actual rvr practice. Most anyone who has done the same since actual 2002 will not have any disagreement that the hunter is the weakest of almost every class possible to select at this patch level - only that stealthers are annoying adders (I agree) would anyone vote for *not* allowing developers to give any attention to the class.

Thank you

You make some very good points but you are waaaaay off when it comes to one thing: Pathfinding is actually useless on this server. Beastcraft at least gets you a Pet, whereas Pathfinding gives you a 20 minute Damage add (the only thing not completely replaced by /use and pot buffs.)

Carry on.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 3:55 AM by skulllz
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:11 AM
You make some very good points but you are waaaaay off when it comes to one thing: Pathfinding is actually useless on this server. Beastcraft at least gets you a Pet, whereas Pathfinding gives you a 20 minute Damage add (the only thing not completely replaced by /use and pot buffs.)

Carry on.

fair enough, the other archers are in no way gods to compared to hunters - didn't mean to insinuate. if anything, all 3 of these classes fall short at the current patch level unless they can maintain a constant spacing for their "decent enough" bow dmg. There are times being on a scout is frustrating when all your enemies have purge up for your one of very few tricks up your sleeve (engage and mastery of blocking can help lengthen the immune timer between slam stuns, as does throwing in occasional numbs to trick some people.. but it doesn't totally save the class in these situations). Ranger is my favorite of the 3, actually, being that it has viability in melee at this patch for either kiting with 4 separate cc-styles (even with low training in weap) -or- straight up killing the enemy with melee alone due to dual wielding with double DD procs, something that's more effective at this stage of enemies having low HPs across the board.

this means my favorite suggestion of all was that MoS be given just slight stealth detection for all archers, since it would benefit all 3, and because I realize a sin can basically make free rps of any of them in most situations (even ranger).

thank you for the comments that also were on board with the pet maintaining sprint - I don't think this small change would throw the game out of balance.

Cheers for all the responses, both those for and against! If i ever reroll or the realm timer gets nerfed you better believe I'll be on a ranger.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:06 AM by Durgrim
Maybe another point of view:
Look at the the majority of specs for Archer Classes: They spend more points in melee spec than into Archer line, which designs their Archetype. There must be a reason why the majority of archers on this server specs into melee to build a hybrid SB/NS/INFO - Ranged Melee.

Why not amending the archers in a way, that it is USEFUL to spend 47 points into their MAIN line (i.e. Archery)

This is (maybe a stupid german approach) my way of thinking about whether a class in itself makes sense or not.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:02 AM by AngelRose
Excellent thread. Thank you OP, for starting this much needed conversation, with thought out ideas.

Archers could use a bit more mos. Right now, they are easy fodder for the sins. Pet just needs a tiny bit of love, either speed or a minor cc.

These two things wouldn't throw off class balance, but would help make the hunter playable.

Two really bad comments that were made in this thread:

1. Hunters shouldn't solo? Ofc hunters should solo, but that doesn't mean they should be able to stand toe to toe with everything. They just need a couple of minor tweaks.
2. Hunters were made to kill sins on live for many years. Not sure why people make statements like 'they NEVER were made to kill sins'. Just comes across as someone who hasn't played daoc in many years.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:25 AM by inoeth
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:06 AM
Maybe another point of view:
Look at the the majority of specs for Archer Classes: They spend more points in melee spec than into Archer line, which designs their Archetype. There must be a reason why the majority of archers on this server specs into melee to build a hybrid SB/NS/INFO - Ranged Melee.

Why not amending the archers in a way, that it is USEFUL to spend 47 points into their MAIN line (i.e. Archery)

This is (maybe a stupid german approach) my way of thinking about whether a class in itself makes sense or not.

maybe another point of view: spear and beastcraft is the main spec line because its unique to the hunter class

seriously.... i accept that you want to play sniper hunter and therefore want to gimp yourself completely, but please stop to project you pov to everyone elses. you seem to not have a single clue how hunter was played the last 18 years. pure sniper hunter was really only possible with the archery change+pet change ... before that hunter was basicly a melee who could use a bow. and that is how many many ppl played and remember that class.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:37 AM by Durgrim
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:25 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:06 AM
Maybe another point of view:
Look at the the majority of specs for Archer Classes: They spend more points in melee spec than into Archer line, which designs their Archetype. There must be a reason why the majority of archers on this server specs into melee to build a hybrid SB/NS/INFO - Ranged Melee.

Why not amending the archers in a way, that it is USEFUL to spend 47 points into their MAIN line (i.e. Archery)

This is (maybe a stupid german approach) my way of thinking about whether a class in itself makes sense or not.

maybe another point of view: spear and beastcraft is the main spec line because its unique to the hunter class

seriously.... i accept that you want to play sniper hunter and therefore want to gimp yourself completely, but please stop to project you pov to everyone elses. you seem to not have a single clue how hunter was played the last 18 years. pure sniper hunter was really only possible with the archery change+pet change ... before that hunter was basicly a melee who could use a bow. and that is how many many ppl played and remember that class.

Please pay a visit to the official daoc site and read the description about the Hunter. Go to char creation and read the info about the Hunter how the class is being advertised.
THEN I would kindly ask you again to come here and re-state your conclusion.
All I am saying is, that the archetype itself has no use in it's current state. You put it correctly: a melee who could use a bow.
On a Min-Max comparison, he can not stealth as good as other classes, he can not melee as good as other classes, he can not deal ranged dps as good as other classes.
And ofc I will share my pov with everyone else in order to have a fruitful discussion - do not worry about my projecting
Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:49 AM by inoeth
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:37 AM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:25 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:06 AM
Maybe another point of view:
Look at the the majority of specs for Archer Classes: They spend more points in melee spec than into Archer line, which designs their Archetype. There must be a reason why the majority of archers on this server specs into melee to build a hybrid SB/NS/INFO - Ranged Melee.

Why not amending the archers in a way, that it is USEFUL to spend 47 points into their MAIN line (i.e. Archery)

This is (maybe a stupid german approach) my way of thinking about whether a class in itself makes sense or not.

maybe another point of view: spear and beastcraft is the main spec line because its unique to the hunter class

seriously.... i accept that you want to play sniper hunter and therefore want to gimp yourself completely, but please stop to project you pov to everyone elses. you seem to not have a single clue how hunter was played the last 18 years. pure sniper hunter was really only possible with the archery change+pet change ... before that hunter was basicly a melee who could use a bow. and that is how many many ppl played and remember that class.

Please pay a visit to the official daoc site and read the description about the Hunter. Go to char creation and read the info about the Hunter how the class is being advertised.
THEN I would kindly ask you again to come here and re-state your conclusion.
All I am saying is, that the archetype itself has no use in it's current state. You put it correctly: a melee who could use a bow.
On a Min-Max comparison, he can not stealth as good as other classes, he can not melee as good as other classes, he can not deal ranged dps as good as other classes.
And ofc I will share my pov with everyone else in order to have a fruitful discussion - do not worry about my projecting

that is your personal interpretation. but in reality you are just plain wrong....
i played a melee hunter for years on live, i must have dreamed that if i follow your point of view.
as far as i understand it, you didnt play this game for a very long time and now you come here and claim stuff you dont have a clue about, its just laughable... really stop it.
btw go to youtube and look for "daoc melee hunter"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-hJ2ly-vp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q38z2RRPBCU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi4XokwP5s

just to name a few


also class descriptions in daoc have always been a bit weird, in early times the game suggested that putting start points to quickness on a caster would be a good idea lol
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:06 AM by Durgrim
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:49 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:37 AM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:25 AM
maybe another point of view: spear and beastcraft is the main spec line because its unique to the hunter class

seriously.... i accept that you want to play sniper hunter and therefore want to gimp yourself completely, but please stop to project you pov to everyone elses. you seem to not have a single clue how hunter was played the last 18 years. pure sniper hunter was really only possible with the archery change+pet change ... before that hunter was basicly a melee who could use a bow. and that is how many many ppl played and remember that class.

Please pay a visit to the official daoc site and read the description about the Hunter. Go to char creation and read the info about the Hunter how the class is being advertised.
THEN I would kindly ask you again to come here and re-state your conclusion.
All I am saying is, that the archetype itself has no use in it's current state. You put it correctly: a melee who could use a bow.
On a Min-Max comparison, he can not stealth as good as other classes, he can not melee as good as other classes, he can not deal ranged dps as good as other classes.
And ofc I will share my pov with everyone else in order to have a fruitful discussion - do not worry about my projecting

that is your personal interpretation. but in reality you are just plain wrong....
i played a melee hunter for years on live, i must have dreamed that if i follow your point of view.
as far as i understand it, you didnt play this game for a very long time and now you come here and claim stuff you dont have a clue about, its just laughable... really stop it.
btw go to youtube and look for "daoc melee hunter"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-hJ2ly-vp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q38z2RRPBCU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi4XokwP5s

just to name a few


also class descriptions in daoc have always been a bit weird, in early times the game suggested that putting start points to quickness on a caster would be a good idea lol

Inoeth, I really don't care about any melee hunter ads, nor do I claim anything. All I was asking/suggesting for is that in the light of archetype's having a look at the hunter. Further I do not care about your experience on live or anything related to that. This isn't live, this isn't anything that YOU experienced in the last years of playing. So anything related to your already made experience doesn't mean anything here on Phoenix. Just forget everything about your class experience and do not try to drag it over to this freeshard and override arguments or questions with your pov. Phoenix is, as we already seen on many occasions, amending things. Just because something does not fit into your world, it doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.
I will step out of any conversation with you since we a) will not reach common ground and b) based on "you come here and claim stuff you dont have a clue about, its just laughable... really stop it" I think that your very next post/answer wouldn't likely be more friendly. You may 'lol' now again.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:12 AM by inoeth
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:06 AM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:49 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:37 AM
Please pay a visit to the official daoc site and read the description about the Hunter. Go to char creation and read the info about the Hunter how the class is being advertised.
THEN I would kindly ask you again to come here and re-state your conclusion.
All I am saying is, that the archetype itself has no use in it's current state. You put it correctly: a melee who could use a bow.
On a Min-Max comparison, he can not stealth as good as other classes, he can not melee as good as other classes, he can not deal ranged dps as good as other classes.
And ofc I will share my pov with everyone else in order to have a fruitful discussion - do not worry about my projecting

that is your personal interpretation. but in reality you are just plain wrong....
i played a melee hunter for years on live, i must have dreamed that if i follow your point of view.
as far as i understand it, you didnt play this game for a very long time and now you come here and claim stuff you dont have a clue about, its just laughable... really stop it.
btw go to youtube and look for "daoc melee hunter"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-hJ2ly-vp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q38z2RRPBCU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi4XokwP5s

just to name a few


also class descriptions in daoc have always been a bit weird, in early times the game suggested that putting start points to quickness on a caster would be a good idea lol

Inoeth, I really don't care about any melee hunter ads, nor do I claim anything. All I was asking/suggesting for is that in the light of archetype's having a look at the hunter. Further I do not care about your experience on live or anything related to that. This isn't live, this isn't anything that YOU experienced in the last years of playing. So anything related to your already made experience doesn't mean anything here on Phoenix. Just forget everything about your class experience and do not try to drag it over to this freeshard and override arguments or questions with your pov. Phoenix is, as we already seen on many occasions, amending things. Just because something does not fit into your world, it doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.
I will step out of any conversation with you since we a) will not reach common ground and b) based on "you come here and claim stuff you dont have a clue about, its just laughable... really stop it" I think that your very next post/answer wouldn't likely be more friendly. You may 'lol' now again.

you are right, im sorry ...

i want insta lifetap for my hunter and machine guns because its phoenix ..... dude do you even believe what you say? ;D
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:24 AM by Durgrim
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:12 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:06 AM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:49 AM
that is your personal interpretation. but in reality you are just plain wrong....
i played a melee hunter for years on live, i must have dreamed that if i follow your point of view.
as far as i understand it, you didnt play this game for a very long time and now you come here and claim stuff you dont have a clue about, its just laughable... really stop it.
btw go to youtube and look for "daoc melee hunter"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-hJ2ly-vp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q38z2RRPBCU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi4XokwP5s

just to name a few


also class descriptions in daoc have always been a bit weird, in early times the game suggested that putting start points to quickness on a caster would be a good idea lol

Inoeth, I really don't care about any melee hunter ads, nor do I claim anything. All I was asking/suggesting for is that in the light of archetype's having a look at the hunter. Further I do not care about your experience on live or anything related to that. This isn't live, this isn't anything that YOU experienced in the last years of playing. So anything related to your already made experience doesn't mean anything here on Phoenix. Just forget everything about your class experience and do not try to drag it over to this freeshard and override arguments or questions with your pov. Phoenix is, as we already seen on many occasions, amending things. Just because something does not fit into your world, it doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.
I will step out of any conversation with you since we a) will not reach common ground and b) based on "you come here and claim stuff you dont have a clue about, its just laughable... really stop it" I think that your very next post/answer wouldn't likely be more friendly. You may 'lol' now again.

you are right, im sorry ...

i want insta lifetap for my hunter and machine guns because its phoenix ..... dude do you even believe what you say? ;D

my answer taken from another Hunter related thread:
1) Increase the archery dmg done with the spec line so that you gain full benefit of speccing into it
2) decrease the stealthing ability in parallel to the points spent in archery - if you went 50 archery, your stealth speed is at its lowest like skill 1 and you can be detected by everyone in 800.
3) define what you want in general on this server regarding stealth: do you want these 2 archetypes (Assasin and Archer) as solo types in RvR, or do you want them to be viable in group? I really could imagine an archer with rapid shot 1.5s in group rupting and creating pressure even when rooted. One could argue here and say, a caster can do that as well with spells. Yes, but you can't buff slash/crush/thrust resis afaik as high as other spell type resis. so the advantage lies here together with higher AF plus a decent capability do do at least a bit melee when in dogfight. (Stun from ShieldScout, CD from Ranger, Pet+Spear from Hunter)


I am not asking for machine guns. Do not exaggerate here. You have read my posts on this. You know precisely what I mean and yet you ride on things. Stop it. Discuss in a good manner with me and we can continue.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:45 AM by inoeth
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:24 AM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:12 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:06 AM
Inoeth, I really don't care about any melee hunter ads, nor do I claim anything. All I was asking/suggesting for is that in the light of archetype's having a look at the hunter. Further I do not care about your experience on live or anything related to that. This isn't live, this isn't anything that YOU experienced in the last years of playing. So anything related to your already made experience doesn't mean anything here on Phoenix. Just forget everything about your class experience and do not try to drag it over to this freeshard and override arguments or questions with your pov. Phoenix is, as we already seen on many occasions, amending things. Just because something does not fit into your world, it doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.
I will step out of any conversation with you since we a) will not reach common ground and b) based on "you come here and claim stuff you dont have a clue about, its just laughable... really stop it" I think that your very next post/answer wouldn't likely be more friendly. You may 'lol' now again.

you are right, im sorry ...

i want insta lifetap for my hunter and machine guns because its phoenix ..... dude do you even believe what you say? ;D

my answer taken from another Hunter related thread:
1) Increase the archery dmg done with the spec line so that you gain full benefit of speccing into it
2) decrease the stealthing ability in parallel to the points spent in archery - if you went 50 archery, your stealth speed is at its lowest like skill 1 and you can be detected by everyone in 800.
3) define what you want in general on this server regarding stealth: do you want these 2 archetypes (Assasin and Archer) as solo types in RvR, or do you want them to be viable in group? I really could imagine an archer with rapid shot 1.5s in group rupting and creating pressure even when rooted. One could argue here and say, a caster can do that as well with spells. Yes, but you can't buff slash/crush/thrust resis afaik as high as other spell type resis. so the advantage lies here together with higher AF plus a decent capability do do at least a bit melee when in dogfight. (Stun from ShieldScout, CD from Ranger, Pet+Spear from Hunter)


I am not asking for machine guns. Do not exaggerate here. You have read my posts on this. You know precisely what I mean and yet you ride on things. Stop it. Discuss in a good manner with me and we can continue.

ive stated several times to give back specable mos. what you want is to force hunters to be played as an archer and that totatly does not make any sense because that has never been like that. you, in general, want things that have never been there. and yes thats totally like demanding machine guns lol. you might bring the argument now that there are already things that have never been there like paladin with increased spec points and some of ras available in nf ra frame, true, but its not like paladins have machine guns now just a few more specpoints. nor are those of ras coming out of nowhere because a) they existed back in the time b) in nf you had toa bonuses.... so all in all its not far from what there already has beens anyway.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:14 AM by Durgrim
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:45 AM
Durgrim wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:24 AM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:12 AM
you are right, im sorry ...

i want insta lifetap for my hunter and machine guns because its phoenix ..... dude do you even believe what you say? ;D

my answer taken from another Hunter related thread:
1) Increase the archery dmg done with the spec line so that you gain full benefit of speccing into it
2) decrease the stealthing ability in parallel to the points spent in archery - if you went 50 archery, your stealth speed is at its lowest like skill 1 and you can be detected by everyone in 800.
3) define what you want in general on this server regarding stealth: do you want these 2 archetypes (Assasin and Archer) as solo types in RvR, or do you want them to be viable in group? I really could imagine an archer with rapid shot 1.5s in group rupting and creating pressure even when rooted. One could argue here and say, a caster can do that as well with spells. Yes, but you can't buff slash/crush/thrust resis afaik as high as other spell type resis. so the advantage lies here together with higher AF plus a decent capability do do at least a bit melee when in dogfight. (Stun from ShieldScout, CD from Ranger, Pet+Spear from Hunter)


I am not asking for machine guns. Do not exaggerate here. You have read my posts on this. You know precisely what I mean and yet you ride on things. Stop it. Discuss in a good manner with me and we can continue.

ive stated several times to give back specable mos. what you want is to force hunters to be played as an archer and that totatly does not make any sense because that has never been like that. you, in general, want things that have never been there. and yes thats totally like demanding machine guns lol. you might bring the argument now that there are already things that have never been there like paladin with increased spec points and some of ras available in nf ra frame, true, but its not like paladins have machine guns now just a few more specpoints. nor are those of ras coming out of nowhere because a) they existed back in the time b) in nf you had toa bonuses.... so all in all its not far from what there already has beens anyway.

Now we are talking. Right. This server has found a fruitful custom way of amending and adapting things. I do not want Hunters to be played as an archer. I want the possibility to choose, whether to play as a melee hunter using a bow, or a sniper hunter using bow mainly. At the moment you can not choose, because there is no point in speccing archery higher than 35. If you do, your gain is miserable compared to other classes speccing from 35 to 50. You got my point now? I do not want to take away your playstyle - not at all - I would like to see a true reason in the archery line to be specced up to 50 and have the possibility to choose to play line A, B or C.
It just does not feel right when every other class is speccing up to 47/48 in each of their lines and gain valuable things. Even for stealth it is worth speccing to 50 at the moment....
Sun 24 Feb 2019 3:50 AM by Borstaug
I think Hunters are at the pit of the game. I have a RR3 Hunter and I was thinking that going melee on it would be a lot of fun. I was wrong. I don't stand a chance against assassins as well as other archers. I think the biggest thing is stealth detection. I'm usually the one getting popped first even though I'm 40+13 stealth. I think if they fix that (maybe add camouflage?) I think it would be a lot more fun.
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