Change when to get RPs for taking Keeps and Towers

I would suggest the following:

Keeps and Towers do not give RPs if the Realm does not own at least one Relic.
At the moment we can see that Albion does not own one Relic, Midgard and Hibernia are raiding in Alb because there they do not have to fight each other and they can easy farm RPs without that big defence. If they would not get RPs because Alb does not own a Relic, they would have to go to Hib or Mid.

Thu 28 Nov 2019 12:13 AM by BisbyHoughton

You know...I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to this idea.

Thu 28 Nov 2019 8:46 AM by Forlornhope

+1 This has my vote.

Thu 28 Nov 2019 10:14 AM by Wolfir666

Lux.Thoras wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Nov 2019 10:27 PM
I would suggest the following:

Keeps and Towers do not give RPs if the Realm does not own at least one Relic.
At the moment we can see that Albion does not own one Relic, Midgard and Hibernia are raiding in Alb because there they do not have to fight each other and they can easy farm RPs without that big defence. If they would not get RPs because Alb does not own a Relic, they would have to go to Hib or Mid.

I see the good side of that, but i also see the risk:
People of that realm could sometimes even be opposing towards taking back their relics, so their own towers are safe and enemies wont even want to raid them.. its kinda giving a realm without relics a free pass to raid other towers without being re-raided.

Thu 28 Nov 2019 2:37 PM by mattymc

Generally agree -- but I think it would be just better to not get RP for twrs nor keeps unless they are defended...same issue though, folks wont defend or try and run away --- BUT, bottom line, NO RP except for fighting other players would generate action and someone will always try and game the system.

Fri 29 Nov 2019 9:21 AM by Lux.Thoras

Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Nov 2019 10:14 AM
I see the good side of that, but i also see the risk:
People of that realm could sometimes even be opposing towards taking back their relics, so their own towers are safe and enemies wont even want to raid them.. its kinda giving a realm without relics a free pass to raid other towers without being re-raided.

If they do not reraid their Towers / Keeps, the Relic Doors will not close and they will loose them instantly again. Also the Ports are broken if they do not reraid the towers. So i would assume, that this should be enough to take the effort for cleaning the own frontier. (Secure own Relcis and open ports)

mattymc wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Nov 2019 2:37 PM
Generally agree -- but I think it would be just better to not get RP for twrs nor keeps unless they are defended...same issue though, folks wont defend or try and run away --- BUT, bottom line, NO RP except for fighting other players would generate action and someone will always try and game the system.

The Problem i see to give only RPs to defended keeps, where do you start to count a "defended" Keep ? If one Player defends the Keep, does it count ? or 2 or one FG ? I think it is difficult to define that.

Fri 29 Nov 2019 9:42 AM by Wolfir666

Lux.Thoras wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Nov 2019 9:21 AM
If they do not reraid their Towers / Keeps, the Relic Doors will not close and they will loose them instantly again. Also the Ports are broken if they do not reraid the towers. So i would assume, that this should be enough to take the effort for cleaning the own frontier. (Secure own Relcis and open ports)

Oh they would re-raid the own keeps and towers, of course, they also want to have DF after all to do Legion-Raids.
But why should they be interested in re-raiding the relics?
Yes, Relics give a bonus to a lot of things, but usually you won't hold more than the own relics for a long enough while to really profit from it.
Except one has a generally higher manpower currently at the Primetimes, as Mid seems to be having the last days *hehe*
But i think that also will change again as soon as the week with the 2x-feather-bonus is over.

I am sure there exist enough people in RvR who would say "nah, no need to go for relics now" and rather would go to raid in other realms for opening ports, gaining RPs, and doing exactly that, what people are right now whining about, getting RPs for raiding Keeps/Towers.

But while they get that, the enemies would not be granted to get RPs while raiding their Keeps/Towers in return, so of course they would be more interested to go for the other realm.
Which would even lead to an *Advantage* for the Realm that doesn't own Relics, as enemy zergs wont be interested in raiding their keeps/towers anymore as much as before.
And honestly, you can't grant an advantage to a realm, that actually should be at a disadvantage due to not fighting for their own relics!

Fri 29 Nov 2019 9:50 AM by Lux.Thoras

I understand your argument and point of view.
From my point of view i would take your argument for "Yes, Relics give a bonus to a lot of things, but usually you won't hold more than the own relics for a long enough while to really profit from it." as an argument for my proposal.

If someone cannot hold the relics for a long time, who will own them instead ? Also, if for example, Albion does not own any relic and Albs want to raid Keeps to get RPs, they need to go to Hib or Mid. While they are raiding some keeps, i am 100% sure, if they have the possibility to get their own relics back, they will use it. Also, it is in the nature of man to give others no advantage, even if he is so small.

Fri 29 Nov 2019 9:58 AM by Wolfir666

But why should there be an advantage to holding no relics at all?
It should be punished, it should make people fight for their relics.
Imho, there rather should be a *disadvantage* for not even owning the own relics, so people try harder to all go together for at least getting back the own relics!
If there was a malus to XP/RP when not even owning the own relics, you can trust it, people would work together way easier to at least get back the own relics.
Because that is, what binds people together, forces them to act together.

While with your proposal, people will not bind together, they will even seperate more, as you can trust me, there will be enough people who'd say "no, lets keep it like that, we dont need own relics."

Fri 29 Nov 2019 10:29 AM by gotwqqd

Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Nov 2019 9:58 AM
But why should there be an advantage to holding no relics at all?
It should be punished, it should make people fight for their relics.
Imho, there rather should be a *disadvantage* for not even owning the own relics, so people try harder to all go together for at least getting back the own relics!
If there was a malus to XP/RP when not even owning the own relics, you can trust it, people would work together way easier to at least get back the own relics.
Because that is, what binds people together, forces them to act together.

While with your proposal, people will not bind together, they will even seperate more, as you can trust me, there will be enough people who'd say "no, lets keep it like that, we dont need own relics."

The disadvantage is sort of built in when the others get an advantage...you want to compound that?

Fri 29 Nov 2019 11:04 AM by Sepplord

he is saying that the advantage of your keeps being worth no rewards, is a bigger advantage than the bonus is for relics, and while that is debatable....as soon as it becomes debatable there will be people on either side of the debate.

Aka some will not want to take relics.

Realms historically already mostly didn't take 6relics into their own realm. When they got 6, they usually "gifted" one relic to a realm or just left one relic despite only needing to pick it up and take it home. All other work already done.
Because taking the 6th relic would severely weaken your keepguards/defense and realms would rather have 5relics that they can defend, than having 6 and losing them all.
That was back when the 6th relic would have immediatly given +10% melee or magical damage. A 10%damage boost people forfeit, to make their realm less attackable.

With that in mind, to me it's not a question if it will happen that people actively avoid taking relics, the question is how much toxicity will get directed towards the poor casual that found a gift-relic lying around in front of his relicwall and dared to pick it up and capture it for his realm

Fri 29 Nov 2019 12:06 PM by Lux.Thoras

Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Nov 2019 9:58 AM
But why should there be an advantage to holding no relics at all?
It should be punished, it should make people fight for their relics.
Imho, there rather should be a *disadvantage* for not even owning the own relics, so people try harder to all go together for at least getting back the own relics!
If there was a malus to XP/RP when not even owning the own relics, you can trust it, people would work together way easier to at least get back the own relics.
Because that is, what binds people together, forces them to act together.

While with your proposal, people will not bind together, they will even seperate more, as you can trust me, there will be enough people who'd say "no, lets keep it like that, we dont need own relics."

Giving a disadvantage for not owning a relic will punish a realm that has less people and which is not able to take his own relics back. If you look at the numbers of Albion players during NA time, you really want to punish them because no one from NA is playing Albion ? really ?
I understand what you mean that there will be people saying, let´s do not get our relics back. Then the bonus for a relic possibly has to change a bit, then I do not see an advantage for owning no relic. If you want to raid Keeps to get RPs but your realm does not own a relic, you will have to go to a other realm. Also the other realms will have to go to a different frontier then to the one which does not have a relic.

I would say if the number of Realm points you get for Raiding a Keep / Tower depends, on the number of relics available in the realm, it will definitely change where the people are raiding.

For example:
Albion does own zero relics which means, Raiding Keeps / Towers does not bring RPs to other Realms (taking back the Keeps / Towers for the real owner should give at least 50%, same for other realms)
Hibernia owns two relics which means, Raiding Keeps / Towers will bring 100% of RPs to all Realms raiding in this realm.
Midgard owns four relics which means, Raiding Keeps / Towers will bring 120% of RPs to all Realms raiding in this realm.

What do you think where the people will go and raid keeps ? I would say, Midgard. If there some Keeps are taken, it will happen that they will loose 1 or 2 relics. Then the situation will change.

Fri 29 Nov 2019 1:35 PM by Sepplord

i disagree, if a mechanic really inevitably leads to the realm with the most relics being the one that gets it'S frontier raided....then that frontier getting raided does NOT neccesarily lead to that realm losing relics

the more obvious it is that taking relics makes you the only target, the less people will want to have relics

Having relics is already HEAVILY nerfed, and i can't even remember when i checked for relic boni last time. Afaik it currently already is more of a prestige thing to take away relics, and it usually only happens by opportunity, not because BGs set out to raid a specific relic.

Adding advantages to not having relics, on top of heavily nerfed advantageous for relicowners is just taking it too far, and at that point removing relics at all would result in a better game than one where relics are seen like a cooked grenade that you want to get rid off

Fri 29 Nov 2019 5:15 PM by Lux.Thoras

I agree with you, that the relics are nerfed very hard. But also this is something what can be changed.
My target is not changing the relics.
The Idea is prevent farming RPs while raiding Keeps in an Frontier where nothing is in to defend and no one there which can do it.

I don´t say that my idea is best solution, but i think this is a starting point for an discussion.
Do you have a better idea to solve a situation as described in the starting post ?