Solution to zergs PvEing towers/keeps

Started 29 Oct 2019
by Soapbox
in Suggestions
Don't let GTAE interrupt. Or don't let GTAE be cast when out of LOS. Or don't let a single GTAE hit half the tower. Or don't let GTAE damage through walls. My point is, the problem is GTAE. Specifically, GTAE from the primary casters in each realm with a 6 second cooldown.

The reason keep defenses are so difficult is because of GTAE. Defenders can't set up well when there's a GTAE that interrupts them every ~6 seconds, and then they can't cast for 3 seconds. Healers will scramble to find locations that aren't being hit from who knows where in order to keep their group mates alive, when they should be able to cast unmolested from inside a closed tower.

This would give all realms a better chance to defend when outnumbered and set up for tower defense, while not changing existing mechanics very much. I have seen (on live) 2fg defend against more than twice their number in tower defenses, on all three realms. Unless it's intended for a single wiz / rune / eld (or worse, 2 staggering their casts) to interrupt a whole tower defense from a very safe distance outside the tower and outside line of sight, then I think we should have a different discussion on that topic.
Tue 29 Oct 2019 6:18 PM by MrWolf
yeah, talk about also shadowed necros leaving pets out of towers and coming in to put gt targets for casters outside...
Tue 29 Oct 2019 6:37 PM by ExcretusMaximus
The entire reason GTAE exists is to hit targets you cannot get LoS on.

How do people not understand this after nearly 20 years?
Tue 29 Oct 2019 6:48 PM by chryso
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Tue 29 Oct 2019 6:37 PM
The entire reason GTAE exists is to hit targets you cannot get LoS on.

How do people not understand this after nearly 20 years?

LOL, gtfo with your logic and stuff.
Tue 29 Oct 2019 10:05 PM by Sepplord
Soapbox wrote:
Tue 29 Oct 2019 4:12 PM
I have seen (on live) 2fg defend against more than twice their number in tower defenses

When was that?
15years ago i also saw that regularly, because 90% of players (myself included) were noobs, especially the ones that would run around in huge numbers attacking a keep/tower.
They didn't utilize GTAOE like it is used on Phoenix

That said though...afaik TWF is a similar case and it was already nerfed into the ground on phoenix, because of all the same arguments that in general also apply to GTAOE. So while i don't really like the TWF nerf (afaik it is too far, though in total it is better than the situation before) something probably should happen about GTAOE too.
Wed 30 Oct 2019 10:21 AM by iamsaitam
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 29 Oct 2019 10:05 PM
Soapbox wrote:
Tue 29 Oct 2019 4:12 PM
I have seen (on live) 2fg defend against more than twice their number in tower defenses

When was that?
15years ago i also saw that regularly, because 90% of players (myself included) were noobs, especially the ones that would run around in huge numbers attacking a keep/tower.
They didn't utilize GTAOE like it is used on Phoenix

That said though...afaik TWF is a similar case and it was already nerfed into the ground on phoenix, because of all the same arguments that in general also apply to GTAOE. So while i don't really like the TWF nerf (afaik it is too far, though in total it is better than the situation before) something probably should happen about GTAOE too.

How was TWF nerfed?
Wed 30 Oct 2019 11:27 AM by Goforit
Soapbox wrote:
Tue 29 Oct 2019 4:12 PM
Don't let GTAE interrupt. Or don't let GTAE be cast when out of LOS.

That is exactly the purpose of gtae.

Play more Melees!
Wed 30 Oct 2019 11:33 AM by Goforit
Soapbox wrote:
Tue 29 Oct 2019 4:12 PM
Or don't let a single GTAE hit half the tower.

That could be something to consider.
Wed 30 Oct 2019 12:05 PM by Sepplord
iamsaitam wrote:
Wed 30 Oct 2019 10:21 AM
How was TWF nerfed?

several ways, most impacting would be that there needs to be LOS from caster to the GTAE for "initial cast" (edited) to happen.
iirr also the target needs to be in LOS to the GT to take dmg, but i am just writing this from memory

EDIT: corrected information and clarified wording
Wed 30 Oct 2019 1:48 PM by gotwqqd
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 30 Oct 2019 12:05 PM
iamsaitam wrote:
Wed 30 Oct 2019 10:21 AM
How was TWF nerfed?

several ways, most impacting would be that there needs to be LOS from caster to the GTAE for each tick of damage to happen.
iirr also the target needs to be in LOS to take dmg, but i am just writing this from memory
From original of blast LoS makes sense
From caster LoS....no...unless pbaoe
Wed 30 Oct 2019 7:24 PM by Horus
I think the fix is making GTAOE only hit those on the same Z axis as the ground target location.
Wed 30 Oct 2019 8:53 PM by Cider
Nerf GTAOE so it needs LOS?? seriously some people really just want everything nerfed to uselessness with no understanding of intended uses!

Comparing it to TWF is just silly. GTAOE only does enough damage to tickle your balls enough to stop you casting, it shouldnt really need a nerf, however I get the complaint about in towers, not for keeps though. Simply reducing the radius a tad should be sufficient as to not cover so much on a tower, yet still leave it as useful, just with more precision needed.
Fri 1 Nov 2019 8:27 PM by easytoremember
It's not GTAE killing in an outnumbered keep defense though. Just poking your head out to attack them gets you exploded

vs Hibs their mushroom piles nuke you back into hiding or finish you off following a few spells being thrown your way if you're lucky enough not to get stun-nuked to death

vs Mids BD/Thane ready to insta you and every RM is running some tier of nearsight. Healers tend to versed with stunning from PvE groups

vs Albs occasional Reaver to insta while the earth theurgs will fuck you up and every caba/wizard is running some tier of NS. Clerics stun once in a blue moon

Sheer numbers prevent you from putting up a fight if you're not running premade group, why would I show up to defend a keep with 80man guardspam
Tue 5 Nov 2019 4:29 PM by mattymc
As long as it is profitable <RP wise> to PvE twrs and keeps --- it will be done. If the playerbase wants it stopped, stop giving RP for takes that are not contested < as an example>. It would be great for the rewards to reflect what the game designers intended -- but they dont, so folks will do whatever is easiest --- it's human nature, and sadly makes for a boring game.
Wed 6 Nov 2019 10:22 AM by Chaskha
Either everything gets nerfed OR half nerfs already in place are removed.
GTAoE has been used to target without LOS, it's annoying: YES. Would I enjoy some kind of nerf on it (eg: an amnesia-like rupt and not a hard rupt), sure. Can I live with it in the current state, yes of course.
Now, PBAoE has always damaged the shit out of ANYTHING AROUND WITHOUT SENSE OF LOS either ! Now, for some reason, a wooden door or a wall is a big no no for the spell. Well, PBAoE at the doors or side walls was HUGE in defense, just like GTAoE is HUGE in attack.

Solve GTAoE by giving back the tools we had for defense too (I know it might not make sense but the path to take (nerf or not) should be sensibly the same for everything).
Wed 6 Nov 2019 1:37 PM by Nunki
easytoremember wrote:
Fri 1 Nov 2019 8:27 PM
why would I show up to defend a keep with 80man guardspam
I personally love it because you can easily farm a huge amount of rps in a short time, as long as you are able to provide a proper small-group setup.
30k/h for 4 Players (twf5-bd, shaman, rm, healer) plus some casual defenders is a nice thing, even if we didn't manage to defend the keep.
Wed 6 Nov 2019 4:41 PM by chryso
Why do you think you need to provide a "solution" to something that is working as intended?
Wed 6 Nov 2019 6:28 PM by mattymc
chryso wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 4:41 PM
Why do you think you need to provide a "solution" to something that is working as intended?

What makes you think the system IS working as intended???? There is literally nothing that demonstrates it is...
Wed 6 Nov 2019 6:49 PM by chryso
mattymc wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 6:28 PM
chryso wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 4:41 PM
Why do you think you need to provide a "solution" to something that is working as intended?

What makes you think the system IS working as intended???? There is literally nothing that demonstrates it is...

Gee, maybe it is the fact that they created a system where you get RPs for attacking keeps.
Now you tell me that you aren't supposed to get RPs for attacking keeps.
I don't mean to doubt your obvious genius but I am having a hard time seeing how this is not as intended.
Wed 6 Nov 2019 9:43 PM by Forlornhope
Gtaoe should not be hitting a floor above and below where the target is set. Yes, it is intended for interrupt but how it stands is ridiculous. One person basically locking down a whole tower or a couple more locking down a CK roof+lord room should not be a thing. It's already almost impossible to defend against an 80 man zerg once they're on the inner door, let alone when no healer can't get a damn cast off. It wouldn't be too bad, but then fifteen pets walk through walls. By the time you find the one spot that isn't getting spammed with gtaoe the door's down and you get swarmed.
Thu 7 Nov 2019 9:22 AM by gruenesschaf
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 30 Oct 2019 12:05 PM
iamsaitam wrote:
Wed 30 Oct 2019 10:21 AM
How was TWF nerfed?

several ways, most impacting would be that there needs to be LOS from caster to the GTAE for each tick of damage to happen.
iirr also the target needs to be in LOS to take dmg, but i am just writing this from memory


You or someone else of your realm with the same ground target needs to have los to it to place it. Afterwards the caster no longer matters. The damage tick is then applied to every enemy in range and los of the ground target.
Thu 7 Nov 2019 10:54 AM by Forlornhope
Then how does one gtaoe rupt people on floors above and below the groundtarget with no Los to the gt?
Thu 7 Nov 2019 10:58 AM by Sepplord
Forlornhope wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 10:54 AM
Then how does one gtaoe rupt people on floors above and below the groundtarget with no Los to the gt?

context matters...Gruenes was commenting on TWF-mechanics

how would you "put down" a GTAOE? and why would that be separate from the damage-tick?
Thu 7 Nov 2019 11:42 AM by Lillebror
How they get groundtargets inside keeps that pull/hit the lord? When they are in courtyard.
Or damage at the tower captain while door still up.

All up for gtaoe to interrupt but some places should be safe not reacheble when you defend
Thu 7 Nov 2019 12:17 PM by Sepplord
Lillebror wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 11:42 AM
How they get groundtargets inside keeps that pull/hit the lord? When they are in courtyard.
Or damage at the tower captain while door still up.

All up for gtaoe to interrupt but some places should be safe not reacheble when you defend

could you give details to this happening?
Last time i attacked a tower captain from only across the room, i got 0dmg and a message that he can't be hurt from so far away.
Thu 7 Nov 2019 2:03 PM by Forlornhope
Yeah, my bad I read and wrote that before I had my first cup of coffee. And as for the gtaoe hitting the lord from outside, it does zero damage to the lord, I think. But it still has the animation go off and the lord starts to run out of the room only to reset as soon as it crosses the doorway. I play druid and see it happen in basically every keep defense.
Thu 7 Nov 2019 2:36 PM by mattymc
chryso wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 6:49 PM
mattymc wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 6:28 PM
chryso wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 4:41 PM
Why do you think you need to provide a "solution" to something that is working as intended?

What makes you think the system IS working as intended???? There is literally nothing that demonstrates it is...

Gee, maybe it is the fact that they created a system where you get RPs for attacking keeps.
Now you tell me that you aren't supposed to get RPs for attacking keeps.
I don't mean to doubt your obvious genius but I am having a hard time seeing how this is not as intended.

Hence the point of the post ---- more free rp's for basically doing nothing <PvEing a keep> is STUPID and SHOULD NOT be part of the game; one could make a strong case that it is a larger part of the deterioration of the game --- you can stand around and do virtually NOTHING and get RP's the way it is now; WTF kind of game is that???? You entirely miss the point of the post , the uniqueness of THIS game is actually FIGHTING OTHER REAL LIFE PLAYERS, there is actual skill there <moreso if there would be better balance but oh well> --- you can play any craptastic game and fight the "AI" <as it were>.
Thu 7 Nov 2019 3:20 PM by Sepplord
mattymc wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 2:36 PM
chryso wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 6:49 PM
mattymc wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 6:28 PM
What makes you think the system IS working as intended???? There is literally nothing that demonstrates it is...

Gee, maybe it is the fact that they created a system where you get RPs for attacking keeps.
Now you tell me that you aren't supposed to get RPs for attacking keeps.
I don't mean to doubt your obvious genius but I am having a hard time seeing how this is not as intended.

Hence the point of the post ---- more free rp's for basically doing nothing <PvEing a keep> is STUPID and SHOULD NOT be part of the game; one could make a strong case that it is a larger part of the deterioration of the game --- you can stand around and do virtually NOTHING and get RP's the way it is now; WTF kind of game is that???? You entirely miss the point of the post , the uniqueness of THIS game is actually FIGHTING OTHER REAL LIFE PLAYERS, there is actual skill there <moreso if there would be better balance but oh well> --- you can play any craptastic game and fight the "AI" <as it were>.

the flipside is that you create situation where people don't want to go defend because "that will only give the enemy RPs"
Seriously, the people only AFKing RPs don't get much. And the ones only zerging around don't know what to do and lose even with an RR difference. The downsides are mainly in epeen and being mad because you "sorked" for your RR while someone else AFKed for it. The benefits are that much more people are online and moving around RvR zones
Thu 7 Nov 2019 4:15 PM by mattymc
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 3:20 PM
mattymc wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 2:36 PM
chryso wrote:
Wed 6 Nov 2019 6:49 PM
Gee, maybe it is the fact that they created a system where you get RPs for attacking keeps.
Now you tell me that you aren't supposed to get RPs for attacking keeps.
I don't mean to doubt your obvious genius but I am having a hard time seeing how this is not as intended.

Hence the point of the post ---- more free rp's for basically doing nothing <PvEing a keep> is STUPID and SHOULD NOT be part of the game; one could make a strong case that it is a larger part of the deterioration of the game --- you can stand around and do virtually NOTHING and get RP's the way it is now; WTF kind of game is that???? You entirely miss the point of the post , the uniqueness of THIS game is actually FIGHTING OTHER REAL LIFE PLAYERS, there is actual skill there <moreso if there would be better balance but oh well> --- you can play any craptastic game and fight the "AI" <as it were>.

the flipside is that you create situation where people don't want to go defend because "that will only give the enemy RPs"
Seriously, the people only AFKing RPs don't get much. And the ones only zerging around don't know what to do and lose even with an RR difference. The downsides are mainly in epeen and being mad because you "sorked" for your RR while someone else AFKed for it. The benefits are that much more people are online and moving around RvR zones
There will always be an issue or a whine ---- you simply need to incentivize actual fighting -- period. One should then incentivize actually playing the game not getting ANY rp's for standing around < and I know people who ave gotten plenty; moreover I see all the time folks getting more rp for PvE than they do for fighting -- and that IS the crux of the issue.>; make relics valuable again from an RP perspective <as an example>, the longer you make no attempt to get yours back, the less rp you can possibly achieve -- as an example and certainly not the only or even best possible one. More people participating IN RvR is the only metric that counts -- being online cattle is a craptastic measure and is tremendously short sighted.
I realize folks are lazy and want everything handed to them --- but the sustainable games have challenges, not silliness.
Thu 7 Nov 2019 6:45 PM by Siouxsie
mattymc wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 4:15 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 3:20 PM
mattymc wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 2:36 PM
Hence the point of the post ---- more free rp's for basically doing nothing <PvEing a keep> is STUPID and SHOULD NOT be part of the game; one could make a strong case that it is a larger part of the deterioration of the game --- you can stand around and do virtually NOTHING and get RP's the way it is now; WTF kind of game is that???? You entirely miss the point of the post , the uniqueness of THIS game is actually FIGHTING OTHER REAL LIFE PLAYERS, there is actual skill there <moreso if there would be better balance but oh well> --- you can play any craptastic game and fight the "AI" <as it were>.

the flipside is that you create situation where people don't want to go defend because "that will only give the enemy RPs"
Seriously, the people only AFKing RPs don't get much. And the ones only zerging around don't know what to do and lose even with an RR difference. The downsides are mainly in epeen and being mad because you "sorked" for your RR while someone else AFKed for it. The benefits are that much more people are online and moving around RvR zones
There will always be an issue or a whine ---- you simply need to incentivize actual fighting -- period. One should then incentivize actually playing the game not getting ANY rp's for standing around < and I know people who ave gotten plenty; moreover I see all the time folks getting more rp for PvE than they do for fighting -- and that IS the crux of the issue.>; make relics valuable again from an RP perspective <as an example>, the longer you make no attempt to get yours back, the less rp you can possibly achieve -- as an example and certainly not the only or even best possible one. More people participating IN RvR is the only metric that counts -- being online cattle is a craptastic measure and is tremendously short sighted.
I realize folks are lazy and want everything handed to them --- but the sustainable games have challenges, not silliness.

Solution: Incentivize soloing by nerfing assassins. They are way too powerful.
Thu 7 Nov 2019 8:15 PM by Lillebror
Forlornhope wrote:
Thu 7 Nov 2019 2:03 PM
Yeah, my bad I read and wrote that before I had my first cup of coffee. And as for the gtaoe hitting the lord from outside, it does zero damage to the lord, I think. But it still has the animation go off and the lord starts to run out of the room only to reset as soon as it crosses the doorway. I play druid and see it happen in basically every keep defense.

This, i havent payed attension if it damage the tower captain but ppl resting next to him die.
My experience was tower south of Nott (closest to keep)
Fri 29 Nov 2019 6:24 AM by Aminita
Difference between Phoenix and live.. the timer...
GTAOE..
Needs a 30 second timer..
Fri 29 Nov 2019 8:30 AM by Wolfir666
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Tue 29 Oct 2019 6:37 PM
The entire reason GTAE exists is to hit targets you cannot get LoS on.

How do people not understand this after nearly 20 years?

Yes exactly.

And since the thread already was woken up from 3 weeks of slumber before, lets clear some things up.

1) GTAE always was intended to do *very* few damage mainly used for interfering enemy casters/healers that are out of LoS, to interrupt the backline of a defense, or an attack.
2) GTAE also can be used very well from defenders of a keep/tower, as you can place the target easily in front of the door or in the groundfloor with being up in the tower, using it to damage those attacking/standing on the groundfloor.
3) 1 GTAE-caster doesn't hit the whole tower, it got a radius of 350, how would that hit the whole tower. Since you can't set a macro for the correct height or cant see the target where you place it you sometimes happen to place it between 2 floors, usually unintentionally, where it indeed can hit both floors. you never will hit more than 2 floors at once with one GTAE-spell.
I agree, that it would be correct to make the floors seperate the damage from each other, so one always only hits one floor, that would be good.
4) If you nerf GTAE, you also need to nerf Spread-heal and Group-Heal, as also this happens without LoS and of course gives defending healers a good chance to heal while their groupmembers are fighting! GTAE is mainly used to stop this from happening and actually i think it is a very correct way and fully intentional to be used like that as mechanism.
5) As well you'd need to nerf Bombs to stop hitting people coming up the stairs, as GTAE also is used to prevent that, if a Bomb-Group is just waiting out in the tower to kill several groups attacking with placing 3-4 bombs stacking next to the stairs of the lord-room. You don't want to get up there without GTAE interrupting the Bombs previously.
6) A Tower-Captain takes (tiny) damage from the GTAE, i am not sure about the Keep-Captain, usually it resisted my GTAEs into the Lord-Room.
7) There rarely is only one GTAE-Caster around, what seems to you as so annoying is, that there are sometimes 5-10 of them, especially in keep defense/attack.
In a keep you still will find save spots though, just dont wait out in the Lord-Room.
And a small tower isn't supposed to hold long against a much larger attacking force anyways. Why do people always think, that a small tower should grant much defensive bonuses against a zerg including several GTAE-casters?
And no, it also wouldnt be realistic, as a small tower provides nothing of worth, no infrastructure, no healers, no food or water, a small tower is only meant to be useful in small scale fights.
Sat 30 Nov 2019 10:19 PM by Forlornhope
The only problem I see with gtaoe is the x and y axis. Do something with it similar to twf so you can't rupt people on two floors with one spell.
Sun 1 Dec 2019 9:22 AM by Wolfir666
Forlornhope wrote:
Sat 30 Nov 2019 10:19 PM
The only problem I see with gtaoe is the x and y axis. Do something with it similar to twf so you can't rupt people on two floors with one spell.

Well, the X- and Y-Axis is okay, but i agree that it should not be able to cast through floors. That's by the way the Z-Axis
Sun 1 Dec 2019 9:23 AM by Svekt
Solution: Require the GROUND TARGET of the spell to do an LOS CHECK on its target like you did on TWF plain and simple. This is the most REALISTIC start to an adjustment.

A while ago, developers and or GMs determined TWF was too powerful because it went above and below and 1 twf could essentially lock down almost an entire tower. What they did was require the GROUND TARGET of the spell to have LOS on the target it was affecting. When dev's/GM's mentioned this I specifically noted that they would also have to make those SAME changes to ST, NM, and GTAOE.

We are at a point where the daoc community is much smarter than it used to be when it comes to utilizing all the different classes and their abilities. People today use near sight better than they ever have in the past, and more people today have macros for their ground targets for specific keep layouts than ever existed in previous daoc history.

But I find it odd that you would still allow ST and NM and GTAOE to all effect targets a floor above and below etc. like twf did.... start here and monitor the impact it has.


EXTRA UNRELATED BUT SEMI RELATED:
Personally, if the original post was somewhat aimed at the Midgard force during the NA prime time then there is not much you can do about being outnumbered 100+ to your realms 50 or 60. For whatever reason these players thoroughly enjoy plowing over targets with little to no resistance. I have watched the NA numbers for hibs and albs decline drastically while mid population remains steady and or increases. Now whether or not you blame this on:
WoW taking your guildies
Pick a class nerf here,
Probably the major lack of consistent BG leaders in this time frame for both Albion and Hibernia
I think all these can be considered and many, many more reasons for the population decline of these two realms. You would think that at some point some of these players would migrate to alb or hib, but I can totally understand not wanting to switch realms once you've been settled in and already have a rr7-10 toon or more than one. Normally I wouldn't want to give that toon/class and RR up to start over but I also don't want an empty server with no action unless you’re a Mid during NA time either. (note this post about is about zerg-warfare, I’m aware there is plenty of 8v8 and small man action)

If your post wasn't generated by playing in this time frame then ignore the above paragraph. Either way the LOS CHECK needs to be added to other AOE type spells and realm abilities because yea unless you have some decent realm rank tricks like baod soldiers barricade DI MOC etc. etc. to combat then you're going to be locked down and killed without even being able to see your opponent.
Mon 2 Dec 2019 4:16 AM by Forlornhope
Wolfir666 wrote:
Sun 1 Dec 2019 9:22 AM
Forlornhope wrote:
Sat 30 Nov 2019 10:19 PM
The only problem I see with gtaoe is the x and y axis. Do something with it similar to twf so you can't rupt people on two floors with one spell.

Well, the X- and Y-Axis is okay, but i agree that it should not be able to cast through floors. That's by the way the Z-Axis

Derp, my bad ahaha that's what I meant.
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