Taboo topic reenvisioned (ToA)

Started 8 Sep 2020
by necrolove1
in Tavern
Alright, guys grab a coffee this one is a doozy!

Before anything, this post isn’t a plea for ToA to be installed on the Phoenix Server, rather a post stating what I think would be a proper installation if it were, based on fixing the mistakes of old, and keeping and moderating the good of what ToA potentially could have had.

Trials of Atlantis is by and large a taboo word among the Daoc community, although, I always saw it as a project with great potential, although, improperly implemented/executed.


ToA:

Original Launch Problems

- The amount of PvE that was necessary to make a player viable in RVR was too steep

- too many extra abilities e.g. ML abilities and charges from having 3-5 artifacts on your template.

- There are more underlying problems, but in my opinion, these were the heavy hitters.


New ToA Goals

- Give players new reusable PvE content for groups and raids alike.

- Make templates more interesting to build and adding a little player customization

- Make all content easily accessible to the casual player.

- Not make all old content and zones irrelevant



Let’s get down to brass tacks, and how I would change some things about ToA personally.

I’ve broken down this monster of a post into 4 parts to make quoting easier if you’d like to reply to a specific section:

A: Master Level Abilities
B: Artifacts
C: New Instanced full group raids
D: ToA Raid Dungeons


A: Master Level Abilities

First and foremost, These should NOT work in RvR at all. The current state of the RvR battlefield is “relatively” balanced, adding these in would make for a big headache.

I’m tempted to say that these abilities shouldn’t exist at all. However, I like to believe that everything has a place. That being said, let’s brainstorm. I suggest that these abilities exist in a way that helps in ToA raid encounters or possible 8 man group encounters similar to ‘Darkspire’. While having a back door exception to offer a secondary solution to these encounters (see below)

For example, there is a boss who goes stealth and regens HP while in stealth, and the only way to find him is with a Presence Node. (maybe a back door to this boss would be to have a stealther in the party)

Or maybe another boss that summons very fast-moving adds that can only be slowed by a Speedwarp in order to kite them easier. ( a secondary option is to strategically place TWFs in the kite path)

To get out of just using Convoker examples: maybe there is a room full of runes and somebody has to use Reveal Crystalseed to guide the zerg/group through a certain area. Or possibly a boss that randomly drops runes in the room. (can’t really think of a back door to this, but if only 1 person needs it, is it necessary?)

What would be your ML ability specific encounter? Can you think of a secondary solution to the encounter?


Adding to this, ML raids could even be set up in a way that makes it so that previous dungeons have to be done in order to succeed in the next.

That exception being less exclusivity, maybe it can still be possible if only a portion of the people in the group/raid have these ML abilities from previous raids, as to not exclude large portions of the population. Just as you would only need a few people to Main tank, you would only need a few people in the raid to have certain ML abilities from the previous Master level raid. Leaving the rest of the players to need nothing at all from previous raids.




B: Artifacts

Artifacts were an interesting concept originally, they took a lot of the passive RA’s and put them into “ToA Stats” gained through these artifacts. Although, by doing this the original developers created some big problems.

First, and probably the biggest problem, is the amount of time necessary to: get the artifacts on drop/roll, farm the scrolls, level these artifacts, etc. This creates a huge power imbalance between those who have time to build templates including multiple artifacts and those who don’t. Thus, forcing new/returning players to go through a lot of PvE before ever actually being able to compete in any non-zerg faucet of RvR.

Next, having so many new ToA items/artifacts made all the older PvE content completely not worth doing. Many players including myself missed the old Legion and SI raids. But the gear from those areas was just not worth it. Because ToA stats were the thing to get now, and all of that came solely from ToA.

My solution:

Artifacts in this alternate ToA should exist, but with a limitation. One Artifact per equipment/inventory.

I suggest this limitation for a few reasons,

First, is the balance between casual and hardcore players. Hardcore players have the time/resources to get decked out in Artifacts while the casual doesn’t. We shouldn’t create a huge wall to climb in PvE if it isn’t necessary. Obtaining 1 Artifact per player is not too challenging of a feat for everyone to do.

Second, avoiding the cardinal sin of MMORPGs, making old content irrelevant. Allowing just one Artifact per player means that players will still have to go after SI raids, Legion, etc to get credit for good gear to help create their templates.

Third, keeping player-crafted armor/weps still very relevant.

Finally, having only one Artifact adds just the right amount of customization to that player’s play-style be it through extra ability / passive stats, without going overboard.


Obtaining Artifacts:

1. I believe that all artifact credits should be purchasable with feathers as to not force every single player to PvE if they don’t want to. Similar to how items are purchased currently from the main cities.

2. I am a huge believer in the best items coming from the player base, meaning that the person who ultimately puts your artifact together would be a player crafter. The mats would include an Artifact credit item, + purchasable mats + ToA item (maybe a farmable scroll?).

3. Should leveling up Artifacts even be a thing? I’m on the fence about this one. Thoughts?

4. Artifact credits should come from various places, meaning Raid content and group content. It should drop as an item similar to any other item that drops in a raid and /rolled for at the end of the raid, while at the same time giving credit so players can buy them from merchants later.

Final thoughts on Artifacts:

- Artifact charge uses should be on a separate timer from the timer of normal item uses. Maybe on a 7-minute reuse timer.

- There are some artifacts that may need tweaking or removed completely, as to not benefit 1 realm more than the other, or maybe the charges/stats of some could be considered overpowered and would need tweaking or removal.

- Lastly, consider making hard caps on ToA stat + RA combinations. For example, 5% cast speed on an item + Mastery of art 9 shouldn’t give 20% casting speed, the cap should remain 15%. Following along with other ToA stats cap increases e.g. 5 to dex stat cap shouldn’t stack on top of aug dex 9, the value of aug dex 9 should be the cap regardless of how you get there.



C: New Instanced full group raids ( similar to Darkspire)

Bosses in these dungeons would drop RoGs, Feathers, and some would give certain Artifact credit + item

There is a ton of ideas that can be put together to make these dungeons a possibility, I’d like to hear your guy’s thoughts on what would be your ToA Group instanced Dungeon. Keep in mind it may be hard to instance some of these areas. I’ll give one thought for a dungeon.

My dungeon would be sort of a rehash of the group challenge steps from ML 7

Your group must finish the 4 challenges in any order to progress to fight the final boss

Apophian's Challenge, Volurgon's Challenge, Shaitan's Challenge, Hephaestian's Challenge

After defeating the 4 challenges you could be able to teleport to a new instanced fight with “Chimera”
(The ML 6 boss)

Basically, instead of going through a big dungeon, you have 4 teleport pads that take you to 4 different challenges that vary in different ways. And then a final teleporter that sends you to Chimera



D: ToA Raid Dungeons

In a spirit of holding true to the progression of the ML steps, I think that each ToA dungeon should be done in progression to the next. Meaning to do Dungeon 2, Dungeon 1 must be completed first and the boss of that zone drops one or two, tradeable, single-use keys to open the door to dungeon 2, So on and so forth. Nowadays every realm has its raid leaders, they would most likely end up with the key(s) regardless.

Progression through the dungeons should remain relatively the same, e.g. you still need to make the glove in Deep Volcanus to stop the lava waterfall for the raid to cross the bridge. Although the dungeons should be streamlined as to not take longer than 1.5 hours to complete with a good-sized BG.

At least half of the Artifact credits would be obtainable in the raids as well.

Due to the immense level of resources that would have to go into this project. I would imagine the ML raid zones would be implemented in phases.

I would break down the Raids into 4 separate dungeons and 1 final area.

ML Raid 1 : Sobekite Eternal

Dungeon progression remains the same, Final boss: Runihara

Have fun jumping off at the end.

ML Raid 2: Halls of Ma’ati

Dungeon progression remains the same, Final boss: Medusa

Don’t get turned to stone now.


ML Raid 3: Deep Volcanus

Dungeon progression remains the same, Final boss: Typhon

Cold damage anyone?


ML Raid 4: Aerus City

Dungeon progression remains the same, Final boss: Phoenix

Would love to see what the devs would change about this fight.


ML Raid 5: EV keep

Final boss: Phoenix Reborn

This final raid would be a mix of RvR defense and PVE raid completion. Upon defeating Phoenix in ML Raid 4 a single key will drop which opens the door to the EV keep and the final encounter.

This last raid will have to be coordinated between the RvR BG leaders and the PvE BG leaders. Once the door opens a message will be sent out across the realms, chaos will soon ensue.

Upon opening the door the raid has to wait 10 minutes before the encounter begins allowing some time. The encounter itself should last anywhere from 10-15 minutes. Half the realm is defending from the other two, while the other half of the realm is trying to finish off the PvE encounter.
Upon defeating the boss there will be a flag that must be taken (similar to task zone flags) After capping the flag a Djinn (or whatever NPC you want) will appear for 24 hours, giving out only one reward should you choose to accept it.

I have yet to think about what that rewards should be, but it should prevent realm swapping. What do you guys think that reward should be?


Thank you for taking the time to read such a long post, I've wanted to write something about ToA for a while just never got around to it.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 5:51 PM by DinoTriz
I largely agree with what you posted here.

ToA also felt like one big underwater level too.

Cool for the first 10 minutes, but a pain after that.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:30 PM by boridi
No thanks.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:58 PM by WildWilbur
Well... No! The day they implement ToA in any form on this server would be my last day here.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:00 PM by Kwall0311
Opening them for PvE reasons would probably be the only thing most people would get behind. But they would have to revert all the work they did turning it into an event zone. So that probably wont happen
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:10 PM by Gildar
A great work mate... i'd love you was a developer at the time project ToA came in mind of Mythic ...

Really i appreciate your effort but now it is too late ... more than 10 years too late

You wrote "Trials of Atlantis is by and large a taboo word among the Daoc community" and for a good number of reasons.

In my opinion ToA killed the game I love ... and that's why we all play here ... classic-base DAOC is still the best mmo game ever

Anyway /clap for the good ideas ... but also Devs have a huge work to do ... and many wont like toa at all .
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:17 PM by Astaa
No.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:17 PM by gotwqqd
It’s not a post wanting ToA implemented....
But I’ll layout a long detailed method to do it
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:45 PM by tommccartney
WildWilbur wrote:
Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:58 PM
Well... No! The day they implement ToA in any form on this server would be my last day here.

+
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:55 PM by necrolove1
Gildar wrote:
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:10 PM
A great work mate... i'd love you was a developer at the time project ToA came in mind of Mythic ...

Really i appreciate your effort but now it is too late ... more than 10 years too late

You wrote "Trials of Atlantis is by and large a taboo word among the Daoc community" and for a good number of reasons.

In my opinion ToA killed the game I love ... and that's why we all play here ... classic-base DAOC is still the best mmo game ever

Anyway /clap for the good ideas ... but also Devs have a huge work to do ... and many wont like toa at all .

Fair point, In the end it was a post I wanted to write for a while, I didn't expect it open arms reception.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 9:05 PM by necrolove1
Kwall0311 wrote:
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:00 PM
Opening them for PvE reasons would probably be the only thing most people would get behind. But they would have to revert all the work they did turning it into an event zone. So that probably wont happen

I'm pretty sure they have every single DAoC asset at their fingertips (including an instance of ToA that has every mob), the current event zone of ToA is just an instance of ToA without mobs, it just requires removing mobs from that instance (as they are going to do with guards on the new Molvik keep). But, it would defiantly be a very large project due to the alterations and coding that would go into it, I won't argue with you there.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 9:08 PM by necrolove1
gotwqqd wrote:
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:17 PM
It’s not a post wanting ToA implemented....
But I’ll layout a long detailed method to do it

I said it wasn't a plea to the devs to implement it, The rest is just how I would do it if it were done. Purely hypothetical. Thus, why I posted it in Tavern, and not Suggestions. if it were implemented in a way that didn't vastly alter the current state of the game (as I suggested above) as the original ToA did. I would totally be on board with it.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 9:16 PM by necrolove1
WildWilbur wrote:
Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:58 PM
Well... No! The day they implement ToA in any form on this server would be my last day here.

I won't debate either way, but I would like to hear more about what you don't like about an alternate version of ToA. I surely wouldn't have liked the original implementation of Shrouded isle on Phoenix either, much less a true to the original ToA implementation. Though I would like to hear what you hate most about ToA.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 9:17 PM by necrolove1
DinoTriz wrote:
Tue 8 Sep 2020 5:51 PM
I largely agree with what you posted here.

ToA also felt like one big underwater level too.

Cool for the first 10 minutes, but a pain after that.

Yeah, I agree that whole underwater zone should have been scrapped.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 11:18 PM by Gildar
necrolove1 wrote:
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:55 PM
Gildar wrote:
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:10 PM
A great work mate... i'd love you was a developer at the time project ToA came in mind of Mythic ...

Really i appreciate your effort but now it is too late ... more than 10 years too late

You wrote "Trials of Atlantis is by and large a taboo word among the Daoc community" and for a good number of reasons.

In my opinion ToA killed the game I love ... and that's why we all play here ... classic-base DAOC is still the best mmo game ever

Anyway /clap for the good ideas ... but also Devs have a huge work to do ... and many wont like toa at all .

Fair point, In the end it was a post I wanted to write for a while, I didn't expect it open arms reception.

Yes ... Anyway i appreciate your ideas
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:05 AM by Kevan89
The only reason I would use ToA content is for to create additional encounters and grindable mobs in the ToA locations just for give diversity in how to acquire Feathers.
Let's be honest, in Mid farming TG is out of discussion (2 hrs for 17k feathers is lame), DS and HoH usually require specific setups.
Some diversity and maybe something scalable, with encounters grindable by small man (ofc less rewarding in terms of Feathers and ROG chances) would be cool, in my opinion.
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:57 AM by labra
I always rooted and will always root for TOA (hence I play here, I know :p ).

I always felt TOA was the time where realms were most balanced overall.
Artfacts and MLs (event CL abilities) introduced a way to even forces.

But I think it shouldn't be added here because server is too "old" and many people will leave if PVE is required to be PVP efficient again.

That being said, I would love an adjusted ToA version (on a wiped server) with
-Phx Feathers and bp as currency to buy ML, Arties etc
-Phx Feathers offered at every level up so that at lvl 50 you have enough feathers to buy your first artifacts/ml
-pretty low amount of feathers given when killing yellow/oj con mobs
-adjusted encounters so every type of pve gameplay could be fulfilled, whether it's solo/casual/small/bg

The way I see it everyone should be able to get ML/Artifacts pretty fast and the way they like (farming feathers, getting encounters done etc) so no one is left behind.

Some issues remains:
-ToA patch version vs class changes (style chains reduces, melee proc, shearbuff) and potential balance issues
-what about classes introduced later ? (heretic, vampiir, warlock, mauler)
-bigger pve zone=more empty spaces
-adding Toa items and /use, decap requires to adapt old zones items too (epic dungeons, dragons loot)

PS: I'd even use Labyrinth as a solo/small zone
Wed 9 Sep 2020 1:09 PM by inoeth
why would anyone do stuff to improve pve abilites?
and well just one artifact is kind of useless

just implement the whole thing like it used to be, maybe with reduced difficulty for faster progression (i also hated the amount of time i had to invest, but loved the outcome)
Wed 9 Sep 2020 1:51 PM by necrolove1
Kevan89 wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:05 AM
The only reason I would use ToA content is for to create additional encounters and grindable mobs in the ToA locations just for give diversity in how to acquire Feathers.
Let's be honest, in Mid farming TG is out of discussion (2 hrs for 17k feathers is lame), DS and HoH usually require specific setups.
Some diversity and maybe something scalable, with encounters grindable by small man (ofc less rewarding in terms of Feathers and ROG chances) would be cool, in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more TS is a pain! It would be cool to at least have some of the ToA raids back, I think people are so traumatized by ToA they forget the Dungeons/encounters were actually pretty cool.
Wed 9 Sep 2020 1:58 PM by necrolove1
I don't think a wipe would be necessary, in essence it would be an expansion. Players would have to go through a small period of adjustment, as with any other MMO expansion.
-Phx Feathers and bp as currency to buy ML, Arties etc
-Phx Feathers offered at every level up so that at lvl 50 you have enough feathers to buy your first artifacts/ml

I agree with your statements, offering feathers to buy ANY ToA item as to not force people to do the encounters they don't want to do.
-adjusted encounters so every type of pve gameplay could be fulfilled, whether it's solo/casual/small/bg

I think a 5 man dungeon would be nice too, although with merciful group setups.
Wed 9 Sep 2020 5:25 PM by labra
necrolove1 wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 1:58 PM
I don't think a wipe would be necessary, in essence it would be an expansion. Players would have to go through a small period of adjustment, as with any other MMO expansion.


Retemplating would be an issue for many
Wed 9 Sep 2020 7:59 PM by necrolove1
labra wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 5:25 PM
necrolove1 wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 1:58 PM
I don't think a wipe would be necessary, in essence it would be an expansion. Players would have to go through a small period of adjustment, as with any other MMO expansion.


Retemplating would be an issue for many

A few hours of temping > year and a half of effort on your chars
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:02 PM by Gildar
All good ideas but ... NO TOA thks

The server pop is good but not fantastic ... ToA would kill Phoenix ... also an easy ToA.

And all considered ... i personally hate ML abilities and Artifact also ... not to mention CL
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:17 PM by thirian24
Gildar wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:02 PM
All good ideas but ... NO TOA thks

The server pop is good but not fantastic ... ToA would kill Phoenix ... also an easy ToA.

And all considered ... i personally hate ML abilities and Artifact also ... not to mention CL

Everybody also said NF would kill the server.
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:21 PM by tommccartney
At 32 years old I simply do not have the time
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:31 PM by necrolove1
tommccartney wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:21 PM
At 32 years old I simply do not have the time

In what i put together above you could just use feathers and never touch TOA, just as i never did galla and still temped.

I wasn't suggesting a true classic TOA at all
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:43 PM by tommccartney
necrolove1 wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:31 PM
tommccartney wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:21 PM
At 32 years old I simply do not have the time

In what i put together above you could just use feathers and never touch TOA, just as i never did galla and still temped.

I wasn't suggesting a true classic TOA at all

I read your post in detail, ‘-make all content easily accessible for casual players’

You have some good ideas, however I’d have to retemp 7 level 50 characters and I don’t have the time to do that & the time it’s taken me to temp those characters since launch would feel like a waste of time ....
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:44 PM by thirian24
I would def be down for this. Being able to have some uniqueness to my toon instead of <everybody runs XYZ>. Also, the problem with classic freeshards is, over time they become super stale. I would very much be down for some new content to occupy my time when RvR sucks ass or I just don't want to RvR. Currently, outside of the now boring content we have, the only option for anything to do, is RvR. If action sucks, we just log out.
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:01 PM by necrolove1
tommccartney wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:43 PM
necrolove1 wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:31 PM
tommccartney wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:21 PM
At 32 years old I simply do not have the time

In what i put together above you could just use feathers and never touch TOA, just as i never did galla and still temped.

I wasn't suggesting a true classic TOA at all

I read your post in detail, ‘-make all content easily accessible for casual players’

You have some good ideas, however I’d have to retemp 7 level 50 characters and I don’t have the time to do that & the time it’s taken me to temp those characters since launch would feel like a waste of time ....

Thanks for reading the post in its entirety, I respect your views. Though I'd like to hear your opinion about what you would change, it doesn't have to be anything like I wrote. But, still would like to hear your thoughts.
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:12 PM by necrolove1
thirian24 wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:44 PM
I would def be down for this. Being able to have some uniqueness to my toon instead of <everybody runs XYZ>. Also, the problem with classic freeshards is, over time they become super stale. I would very much be down for some new content to occupy my time when RvR sucks ass or I just don't want to RvR. Currently, outside of the now boring content we have, the only option for anything to do, is RvR. If action sucks, we just log out.

I agree, one thing that I find curious is when people say they don't want to see any change because it will possibly kill the server, whereas if there is no change whatsoever, it will truly kill the server because it becomes stale.

I also feel like having just a little bit more of uniqueness to my character would be nice to have outside of the norm. Maybe some people like a little bit more extra stats, maybe some like an extra ability. I think having 1 artifact adds just the right level of uniqueness without going overboard with super high toa stat caps/bonuses.
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:28 PM by Centenario
Only thing that I would take from ToA are the artifacts, the areas and the new mob models.
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:30 PM by thirian24
tommccartney wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:55 PM
thirian24 wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 8:44 PM
I would def be down for this. Being able to have some uniqueness to my toon instead of <everybody runs XYZ>. Also, the problem with classic freeshards is, over time they become super stale. I would very much be down for some new content to occupy my time when RvR sucks ass or I just don't want to RvR. Currently, outside of the now boring content we have, the only option for anything to do, is RvR. If action sucks, we just log out.

Remember when you cried for a /bow town, and it got deleted because it proved to be bad for the server

Never heard of you
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:55 PM by necrolove1
Centenario wrote:
Wed 9 Sep 2020 9:28 PM
Only thing that I would take from ToA are the artifacts, the areas and the new mob models.

Couldn't agree more, though Waterworld can be left empty except maybe for the big whale encounter and Cetus.

MLs can be excluded, I'd love to go through the dungeons again, without the tedious ML raid steps.
Thu 10 Sep 2020 5:53 AM by inoeth
funny how you only need to write "TOA" and like a reflex ppl rant "it will kill the server/then im outta here" stupid imo
Thu 10 Sep 2020 2:00 PM by necrolove1
inoeth wrote:
Thu 10 Sep 2020 5:53 AM
funny how you only need to write "TOA" and like a reflex ppl rant "it will kill the server/then im outta here" stupid imo

True, I wish people could think outside the box a bit and realize that a properly streamlined/adjusted ToA in line with the current server would be beneficial to the longevity of the server.

I too was once one of these no ToA or bust folk once, but after having broken down many of the aspects of ToA. I realized a while ago, that it's all about how its implemented and not the expansion itself.

- The Dungeons and mechanics (aside from some of the buggy boss fights) were very beautiful and memorable. ( I'm sure nobody can complain about this)
- Although there has to be a reason to do the dungeon, e.g. New gear, or nobody will do them.

- Properly adjusted/limited Artifacts are just another item.

- Though, I'm still in the boat of ML abilities not being usable in RvR, or not exist at all.

ToA has the potential to be a great mini-expansion.
Fri 11 Sep 2020 7:41 AM by inoeth
the only reason why toa sucked was because it took tooo much time to get all the stuff, but that was just the first year... after that it all was doable for casuals too.
Fri 11 Sep 2020 12:49 PM by Gloti
It was doable but it felt like a piece of homework, an annoying part of the game you have to do otherwise you will lose. The areas were beautyfull but much too big.
Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:15 PM by inoeth
Gloti wrote:
Fri 11 Sep 2020 12:49 PM
It was doable but it felt like a piece of homework, an annoying part of the game you have to do otherwise you will lose. The areas were beautyfull but much too big.

yes it was some work but not more than farming all the epic dungeon stuff before, at least the artifact part.
and later it got really conveniant when everything used to lvl on every mob, not like in the beginning where you needed to fit some rare conditions like female arachite at night or stupid stuff like this.
Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:22 PM by labra
Artifacts should have been lvl 10 at activation.
Xp was a pain ( I remember levelling belt of the sun/moon)
Sat 12 Sep 2020 2:41 PM by necrolove1
labra wrote:
Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:22 PM
Artifacts should have been lvl 10 at activation.
Xp was a pain ( I remember levelling belt of the sun/moon)

I can get on board with this, leveling artifacts was just an age-old time sink technique companies used to keep you playing just a little longer to get those subs payments out of you. Shouldn't exist in 2020.
Sat 12 Sep 2020 3:50 PM by necrolove1
I would also say that the overall Utility of ToA items, Artifacts/drops alike should be in line with what is currently in the game.
Sat 12 Sep 2020 7:09 PM by labra
Revamp every items would take too much time.
Sun 13 Sep 2020 9:38 AM by Cadebrennus
ToA is cool but with no Artifacts, no MLs. Just make mobs have a chance to drop feathers. Also, make the entire zone open to RvR like the ML10 encounter, and no underwater portion.
Sun 13 Sep 2020 2:55 PM by necrolove1
labra wrote:
Sat 12 Sep 2020 7:09 PM
Revamp every items would take too much time.

Probably not too long, there are only 60 Artifacts, and the ToA items worth getting (non Artifact) let's say anywhere from 100-150 items total. Of which, not all would need to be changed. Check to see if items are in line with the current scope of the game, then make changes to the ones that are not.
Fri 18 Sep 2020 7:20 PM by MisterCotton
I'm all for TOA with this kind of setup. The only thing bad about TOA was the grind. The items and skills were loved. It added a variety to kits.

And I know I'm going to get shout down, but TOA did not kill DAOC, the numbers prove it. People like to point the finger at TOA like it was the cancer that did Camelot in but thats not true. The numbers speak the truth.

The grinding sucked. The grinding sucked bad.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 10:42 PM by LedriTheThane
I've always been an advocate of a ToA server that cuts down on the grind. I don't think some of this is the right to do it though. I think you can have the ML abilities in RVR with the intended realm rank abilities. These coincide together for balance. However, I would NOT mind at all completely removing speed warp.

But how do we cut down on the grind while preserving the integrity of ToA? Not with the phoenix feathers buying artifacts, nor limiting artifacts. Simply increase the spawn rates of scrolls, increase the spawn rates of the artifact encounter mobs that are more easily accessible, and have them also drop feathers. Maybe even use the feathers to buy other scrolls but not the actual encounter themselves. Also have the feathers be used for other various items too from other places. Increase the experience dramatically for artifact items while in certain zones.

I get Phoenix is very much a customized fun server, but at least for me, this is what I'd want the most tbh. A casualized recreation.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 10:44 PM by LedriTheThane
MisterCotton wrote:
Fri 18 Sep 2020 7:20 PM
I'm all for TOA with this kind of setup. The only thing bad about TOA was the grind. The items and skills were loved. It added a variety to kits.

And I know I'm going to get shout down, but TOA did not kill DAOC, the numbers prove it. People like to point the finger at TOA like it was the cancer that did Camelot in but thats not true. The numbers speak the truth.

The grinding sucked. The grinding sucked bad.

This is 100% the truth. Anyone that thinks ToA killed DAoC is factually wrong. Sub numbers never dropped until November 2004, a while after ToA release. What killed DAoC was, if anything, the release of World of Warcraft. It was easier to get into, and quite frankly the technology behind WoW made it the right MMO at the right time. DAoC servers today are still buggy as shit because that's just how the game is. I still love it, but yeah.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:45 PM by hookbill
toa wouldn't "kill" the game.. rvr isn't the end all to be all for the game.. its a portion, the other portion is exploring the realm, doing quests, getting gear.. I think adding content would be a plus to any game.. just limiting to pvp type things, cuts out 50% of your subs.. when they hit 50, they level another one, not everyone likes the running and gunning like pubg kiddies.. i think the major complaining is that you'd have to do more playing to get back on top again and not just sit and kill lowbies... those people that dont' want to pvp (or casual pvp'rs) and with no added content will eventually just leave because they are tired of getting rolled by elites or just run out of stuff.

I've seen this time and time again in mmo's ... they rush from 1-XX level in 8hrs then bitch a week later that there is no end game content because they rushed through it all and didn't enjoy the rest of the low level stuff. If its that big a deal to play toa and get your rvr status back to munchkin status then just don't have it allowed in rvr, but don't eliminate 2/3 of the expansions because some are afraid to put in the extra hours to get the stuff.
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:18 AM by daytonchambers
hookbill wrote:
Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:45 PM
toa wouldn't "kill" the game.. rvr isn't the end all to be all for the game.. its a portion, the other portion is exploring the realm, doing quests, getting gear.. I think adding content would be a plus to any game.. just limiting to pvp type things, cuts out 50% of your subs.. when they hit 50, they level another one, not everyone likes the running and gunning like pubg kiddies.. i think the major complaining is that you'd have to do more playing to get back on top again and not just sit and kill lowbies... those people that dont' want to pvp (or casual pvp'rs) and with no added content will eventually just leave because they are tired of getting rolled by elites or just run out of stuff.

I've seen this time and time again in mmo's ... they rush from 1-XX level in 8hrs then bitch a week later that there is no end game content because they rushed through it all and didn't enjoy the rest of the low level stuff. If its that big a deal to play toa and get your rvr status back to munchkin status then just don't have it allowed in rvr, but don't eliminate 2/3 of the expansions because some are afraid to put in the extra hours to get the stuff.

Toa would indeed kill the game. History is not on your side here.

The problem with ToA content is that it introduced so many character enhancements (artifacts, ML abilities, new gear stats) that you HAD to do the content in order to remain competitive in RvR whether you wanted to do that content or not.

That is why so many people hated it.
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:29 AM by daytonchambers
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sun 13 Sep 2020 9:38 AM
ToA is cool but with no Artifacts, no MLs. Just make mobs have a chance to drop feathers. Also, make the entire zone open to RvR like the ML10 encounter, and no underwater portion.

Personally I would love to see Toa mobs and world bosses (the old arti encounter mobs) scattered around islands in the Irish Sea and/or EV that you could kill for feathers/tears/ash. This would have a side effect of creating new bottleneck spots for pvp as people lie in wait for enemies coming out to farm these mobs.

They could even be rare spawns with a server broadcast when they pop, creating a player rush to various areas in NF. Could even tie the new encounters to kill credit for new feather items (champion weapon skins rewarded from this would be amazing)
Sat 26 Sep 2020 10:19 AM by hookbill
daytonchambers wrote:
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:18 AM
hookbill wrote:
Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:45 PM
toa wouldn't "kill" the game.. rvr isn't the end all to be all for the game.. its a portion, the other portion is exploring the realm, doing quests, getting gear.. I think adding content would be a plus to any game.. just limiting to pvp type things, cuts out 50% of your subs.. when they hit 50, they level another one, not everyone likes the running and gunning like pubg kiddies.. i think the major complaining is that you'd have to do more playing to get back on top again and not just sit and kill lowbies... those people that dont' want to pvp (or casual pvp'rs) and with no added content will eventually just leave because they are tired of getting rolled by elites or just run out of stuff.

I've seen this time and time again in mmo's ... they rush from 1-XX level in 8hrs then bitch a week later that there is no end game content because they rushed through it all and didn't enjoy the rest of the low level stuff. If its that big a deal to play toa and get your rvr status back to munchkin status then just don't have it allowed in rvr, but don't eliminate 2/3 of the expansions because some are afraid to put in the extra hours to get the stuff.

Toa would indeed kill the game. History is not on your side here.

The problem with ToA content is that it introduced so many character enhancements (artifacts, ML abilities, new gear stats) that you HAD to do the content in order to remain competitive in RvR whether you wanted to do that content or not.

That is why so many people hated it.

they hated it because they didn't want to put the work in again to remain competitive, they wanted to rest on their laurels to stay on top.. gotta work it constantly.. but easily solved... don't allow it in rvr. however, i dont' think it should be eliminated for everyone else that enjoys it or wants it for the pve side. honestly doesn't matter, its a free game, if they want to take it into a totally pvp/rvr then people will leave or stay as they please like they do with any game. the easy part in all this is that we don't have to make that choice, so it is easy to say how we think it should be done. lol
Sat 26 Sep 2020 11:29 AM by Chaskha
I read your post although I'm no ToA fan at all.
In all honesty, your proposal removes what I disliked so much so I'll applaud the thinking you put in it.
Having ToA in this particular would not make me leave - maybe I'd even enjoy it.

Congratulations on a nice post - despite the salty people but bitter idiots have a long history in DAoC, most have probably not read your post so don't worry.
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:18 PM by Stoertebecker
MisterCotton wrote:
Fri 18 Sep 2020 7:20 PM
And I know I'm going to get shout down, but TOA did not kill DAOC, the numbers prove it. People like to point the finger at TOA like it was the cancer that did Camelot in but thats not true. The numbers speak the truth.

Thats something ppl who keep saying that ToA killed DAoC don`t wanna hear. They wouldn`t believe it if you give them Mythic`s original financial and data files.
WoW and some other games started the slowly DAoC exodus between late 2003 and 2005, not ToA. But that doesn`t fit into the holy * ToA killed DAoC* Grail.

Same thing if ppl say DAoC is for RvR only. Most of the players were sitting only in PvE and were greedy for more new pve content.
Mon 28 Sep 2020 7:28 AM by Sepplord
in the end it boils down to PvE having a much bigger fanbase than PvP...

my biased opinion though, there are TONS of MMOS that offer incredible PvE-content compared to anything that daoc could offer. I like PvE too from time to time, it is much better plannable and can be relaxing too, but i would never look at DAoC for a game to PvE much in
Wed 30 Sep 2020 11:39 AM by Stoertebecker
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 28 Sep 2020 7:28 AM
in the end it boils down to PvE having a much bigger fanbase than PvP...

my biased opinion though, there are TONS of MMOS that offer incredible PvE-content compared to anything that daoc could offer. I like PvE too from time to time, it is much better plannable and can be relaxing too, but i would never look at DAoC for a game to PvE much in

There are a bunch of pve games worth to play. Eso as an example, the pve is outstanding.
If i ask the *pve-players* in our guild why they still play daoc for pve and not eso the answers are like * Too much hazzle learning new stuff*, * My system can`t handle eso*...etcetc...

But you need this players to keep the server alive. 100 rvr nerds at primetime only in each realm is no satisfying gaming experience, that isn`t DAoC.
Wed 30 Sep 2020 11:47 AM by labra
saying "there are better pve games than DAOC" is the same than saying "there are better pvp games than DAOC".
Wed 30 Sep 2020 12:23 PM by Sepplord
labra wrote:
Wed 30 Sep 2020 11:47 AM
saying "there are better pve games than DAOC" is the same than saying "there are better pvp games than DAOC".

Good that noone said the first thing...what i said was that there are TONS of better PvE games.
While Open-world PvP-MMOs are maybe a handful.
There is a difference between those statements. But maybe it is my personal bias.

I welcome any DAoC-PvE enthusiast to try and explain to me what about DAoC PvE appeals to them, and why other games don't scratch that itch much better.
Wed 30 Sep 2020 12:37 PM by labra
it's not about being pve-enthusiast.
It's not even about opposing "pve-enthusiats" and "pvp-enthusiats"

Daoc has always provided both great pve and pvp (I'd better say rvr) content.

Everytime there is a topic asking or suggesting or simply remembering how DAOC pve could be great (and quite often painfully long), there is people coming and arguing that DAOC is pvp oriented (wich isn't false but not totally true) and "kindly" advising playing other games. I was just pointing that.
Wed 30 Sep 2020 12:48 PM by DinoTriz
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 30 Sep 2020 12:23 PM
I welcome any DAoC-PvE enthusiast to try and explain to me what about DAoC PvE appeals to them, and why other games don't scratch that itch much better.

DAOC does PVE Tanking so much better than any other game imo. Guard, Protect, etc are such cool abilities and even allow for more interesting group play like bomb groups.

I enjoy PVE through combat mechanics (mainly melee). There aren't a lot of games that use reactionary, chained, or positional abilities. If they do, they're usually reserved for their rogue archetypes.

The older MMOs may be grindy, but they allow you to actually get to know your groupmates. It slows things down and causes you to rely on someone for their class specific abilities and that also forces you to become social, which is what an MMO should be.

I agree that RVR is the best part of DAOC but I wouldn't underestimate the PVE.
Wed 30 Sep 2020 12:56 PM by Sepplord
thanks, not my type of PvE-interest but especially the melee-combat argument makes sense and brings movement+choice for optimized DPS while not being a close-range caster like in the majority of alternative games
Thu 22 Oct 2020 1:28 PM by watbrif
Stoertebecker wrote:
Wed 30 Sep 2020 11:39 AM
There are a bunch of pve games worth to play. Eso as an example, the pve is outstanding.
If i ask the *pve-players* in our guild why they still play daoc for pve and not eso the answers are like * Too much hazzle learning new stuff*, * My system can`t handle eso*...etcetc...

But you need this players to keep the server alive. 100 rvr nerds at primetime only in each realm is no satisfying gaming experience, that isn`t DAoC.

"Modern" MMO games like ESO are not "massive" but basically offer a single-player experience in an online setting. That's not what most people who like the pve content in games like daoc are after. Telling people to go to ESO if you like pve is like telling them to play a single-player game (because they like pve)...
Thu 22 Oct 2020 2:14 PM by Sepplord
watbrif wrote:
Thu 22 Oct 2020 1:28 PM
"Modern" MMO games like ESO are not "massive" but basically offer a single-player experience in an online setting. That's not what most people who like the pve content in games like daoc are after. Telling people to go to ESO if you like pve is like telling them to play a single-player game (because they like pve)...

How is ESO less massive than DAoC regarding PvE?
It features more instanced group content than DAoC (or well at least Phoenix, not sure how live compares)
And allows for grouping in the openworld just as much as DAoC does?

Just because people point towards it when you WANT a solo-online experience, doesn't mean it's the only way.
(and to be fair, tons of people play daoc PvE exclusively solo...that doesn't make DAoC a solo-experience)
Thu 22 Oct 2020 2:40 PM by watbrif
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 22 Oct 2020 2:14 PM
watbrif wrote:
Thu 22 Oct 2020 1:28 PM
"Modern" MMO games like ESO are not "massive" but basically offer a single-player experience in an online setting. That's not what most people who like the pve content in games like daoc are after. Telling people to go to ESO if you like pve is like telling them to play a single-player game (because they like pve)...

How is ESO less massive than DAoC regarding PvE?
It features more instanced group content than DAoC (or well at least Phoenix, not sure how live compares)
And allows for grouping in the openworld just as much as DAoC does?

Just because people point towards it when you WANT a solo-online experience, doesn't mean it's the only way.
(and to be fair, tons of people play daoc PvE exclusively solo...that doesn't make DAoC a solo-experience)

Instances are one of those things that terribly undermine the "massive" experience, because they sever you from the rest of the server. You don't feel like being part of a coherent world anymore. And that basically applies to most modern MMOs (even live daoc). Games like ESO or SWTOR are also very much story driven, similar to a single-player game. All of this usually means less interaction, less communication, more isolation. On Phoenix, even if I solo, I usually have the feeling that there's people and players around me doing their own thing, and I think that's also part of the "massive" experience. The xp-item system also helped to spread people out, so often you meet people even somewhere in the Hibernian sticks...
Thu 22 Oct 2020 3:10 PM by Sepplord
watbrif wrote:
Thu 22 Oct 2020 2:40 PM
Instances are one of those things that terribly undermine the "massive" experience, because they sever you from the rest of the server. You don't feel like being part of a coherent world anymore. And that basically applies to most modern MMOs (even live daoc). Games like ESO or SWTOR are also very much story driven, similar to a single-player game. All of this usually means less interaction, less communication, more isolation. On Phoenix, even if I solo, I usually have the feeling that there's people and players around me doing their own thing, and I think that's also part of the "massive" experience. The xp-item system also helped to spread people out, so often you meet people even somewhere in the Hibernian sticks...

SWTOR is a whole different thing, i haven't played it but i have heard that it is much more like a solo experience.
Eso though is just like daoc in the open world (considering the aspect of being MMO with other players), with quests making you meet players just like in daoc, popular farmspots already being "taken", etc... (unless that heavily changed, i haven't played ESO for a few years)
HoH / DS are the instances on phoenix, it's not like tons of stuff is instanced in ESO

I get that for some people daoc PvE is the game of their choice, even if it would never be attractive for PvE for me....that's fine. But the argument you bring up regarding ESO sound like you are mistaking it with a different game


I get what you mean regarding "level-dungeons" though, i also had a feeling of missing that in other MMOs. The thing is though, it's not like public dungeons are missing from other games, it's more that in other games those things don't have a loading screen at the front anymore, you just walk in. What doesn't happen anymore in modern games is that levelling is being done by sitting in one spot grinding mobs for hours, like it is standard in DAoC and other old MMOs
Fri 16 Apr 2021 2:55 AM by necrolove1
Well with the recent experiment I thought I'd give this a bump
Fri 16 Apr 2021 2:23 PM by Greenangel
If the devs here are really talented and board and want change things improve things I don't see that anyone would complain if they brought a toa zone or catacoombs zone out just for pve events and feathers and rog drops.

With maybe there own pve encounters events designs challenges like dark spire.

Maybe with all 3 realms being able take part the encounters events.

Maybe even make rog drops better there for makeing templates faster for casuals.

But really no one wants artifacts master levels or to make it harder for casuals play the game or make templates or have earn money for new charged items.
Fri 16 Apr 2021 5:30 PM by Kurbsen
watbrif wrote:
Thu 22 Oct 2020 1:28 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Wed 30 Sep 2020 11:39 AM
There are a bunch of pve games worth to play. Eso as an example, the pve is outstanding.
If i ask the *pve-players* in our guild why they still play daoc for pve and not eso the answers are like * Too much hazzle learning new stuff*, * My system can`t handle eso*...etcetc...

But you need this players to keep the server alive. 100 rvr nerds at primetime only in each realm is no satisfying gaming experience, that isn`t DAoC.

"Modern" MMO games like ESO are not "massive" but basically offer a single-player experience in an online setting. That's not what most people who like the pve content in games like daoc are after. Telling people to go to ESO if you like pve is like telling them to play a single-player game (because they like pve)...

dont think you play eso then? tons of more group content for pve in that game then daoc lol. even soloing in the open world you will find someone doing the same thing as you, always someone else doing spellscar pulls, tons of people dolemn grinds, and zombie pulls.. just because they allow you to solo a lot more doesnt mean its single player experience, it offers tons of groupplay
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