Re: Mid is the new Alb

Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:29 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:45 PM
Wolfir666 wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:28 PM
Admittedly chess really isnt a good example, or maybe it even is, as the rules never are changed, in 100 years you still will play chess exactly the same way as you do now, only thing that exists is a slight difference between existing rulesets like en passant and such.
So in truth you can call a chessplayer a very specialized player, that always does the same, because he learned everything of that a long while ago, and he learned all possible counters and existing strategies to counter the counters and such.. but he never will have to face new rule-changes or evolving game-tactics, as he knows them all already.

Basically like a DAoC-player from 20 years ago, who still likes to play it the "old way" and isn't open for any changes

Edit:
By the way, that's why a casual chess-player is sometimes able to beat a semi-professional chess player in the first match. As the semi-pro in all his experience and knowledge isnt able to determine, what the casual will do, in the very first game. But as soon as he knows your playstyle and can read you, no chance anymore.

How is chess not a good example? It's an old game and you listed examples yourself how someone's skill in the game lets him consistently beat new players. Imo it is perfect to show that old games still require skill and not everything modern is automatically better for displaying skill.

Remember why i made the argument: stoertebecker implied that daoc doesnt require skill and that actually skilled players would have the reflexes to play a newer game. That is the context in which i mentioned chess as example of a reflex-independant old Game that is very skilldependant

The chessplayer i met is brilliant in playing chess, but thats all, he fails in all other stuff. He broke 2 fingers on his left hand as he was trying to knock a nail into the wall.
Should i go wild for such skill? Surely not. Thats a realy worse example from your side.
Chess requires exactly 1 Skill, DAoC is a bit more complex but its gameplay is (compared with more modern games in this genre) slow and static.
Generally not a bad thing, nothing to brag about....but if i read such nonsense that ppl think they`re something like a gamergod...yeah *clap clap

Btw, reflexes slow down over the years..human:nature

I would vehemently disagree with you in that more modern games require skill. Let's compare WoW and ESO PvP to DAOC's PvP. I got incredibly bored with ESO because the battles became much more predictable than DAOC's battles. In both ESO and WoW the winner was determined by their temp and not their actual skill. At least here on Phoenix the bar is much lower for putting together a suit for RvR, and then it's also the abilities of the player and class after that that determine your chances of winning a fight.
The Drunken Ranger!-keeping Devs honest since 2012
Also playing a dual-wielding Saracen
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsY42S8E3-bNo7koW7oFZug

The Drunken Ranger’s Guide to Drunken Rangery
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2902

Re: Mid is the new Alb

Cadebrennus wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 2:00 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:29 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:45 PM
How is chess not a good example? It's an old game and you listed examples yourself how someone's skill in the game lets him consistently beat new players. Imo it is perfect to show that old games still require skill and not everything modern is automatically better for displaying skill.

Remember why i made the argument: stoertebecker implied that daoc doesnt require skill and that actually skilled players would have the reflexes to play a newer game. That is the context in which i mentioned chess as example of a reflex-independant old Game that is very skilldependant

The chessplayer i met is brilliant in playing chess, but thats all, he fails in all other stuff. He broke 2 fingers on his left hand as he was trying to knock a nail into the wall.
Should i go wild for such skill? Surely not. Thats a realy worse example from your side.
Chess requires exactly 1 Skill, DAoC is a bit more complex but its gameplay is (compared with more modern games in this genre) slow and static.
Generally not a bad thing, nothing to brag about....but if i read such nonsense that ppl think they`re something like a gamergod...yeah *clap clap

Btw, reflexes slow down over the years..human:nature

I would vehemently disagree with you in that more modern games require skill. Let's compare WoW and ESO PvP to DAOC's PvP. I got incredibly bored with ESO because the battles became much more predictable than DAOC's battles. In both ESO and WoW the winner was determined by their temp and not their actual skill. At least here on Phoenix the bar is much lower for putting together a suit for RvR, and then it's also the abilities of the player and class after that that determine your chances of winning a fight.

And you go into rvr without a template? I got bored with Eso-pvp because everybody and his dog were dodgerolling over the half map...but ok, some ppl call it skill

At least all the games require 1 or 2 skills today.... how to create macros for keyboard and/or mouse.

Re: Mid is the new Alb

And what about the rvr in the past few days? Is Mid really the problem here? Its about 2-3h a day where Mid has a 'strong zerg'. Rest of the day Mids are just unorganized and the Midgard fz looks like a christmas tree (speaking mostly for EU Time). At the moment Hibs are pve-ing for the next relic, so even the US time don't seem to be that good for Mid anymore. I really don't care about that but the crying about the Midgard 'Zerg' is just hilarious. Every few weeks somethings changes because people are switching their mainrealm for a while and then it goes back to another realm.

Re: Mid is the new Alb

Stoertebecker wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:50 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 2:00 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:29 PM
The chessplayer i met is brilliant in playing chess, but thats all, he fails in all other stuff. He broke 2 fingers on his left hand as he was trying to knock a nail into the wall.
Should i go wild for such skill? Surely not. Thats a realy worse example from your side.
Chess requires exactly 1 Skill, DAoC is a bit more complex but its gameplay is (compared with more modern games in this genre) slow and static.
Generally not a bad thing, nothing to brag about....but if i read such nonsense that ppl think they`re something like a gamergod...yeah *clap clap

Btw, reflexes slow down over the years..human:nature

I would vehemently disagree with you in that more modern games require skill. Let's compare WoW and ESO PvP to DAOC's PvP. I got incredibly bored with ESO because the battles became much more predictable than DAOC's battles. In both ESO and WoW the winner was determined by their temp and not their actual skill. At least here on Phoenix the bar is much lower for putting together a suit for RvR, and then it's also the abilities of the player and class after that that determine your chances of winning a fight.

And you go into rvr without a template? I got bored with Eso-pvp because everybody and his dog were dodgerolling over the half map...but ok, some ppl call it skill

At least all the games require 1 or 2 skills today.... how to create macros for keyboard and/or mouse.

lol the dodge-rolling, I forgot about that nonsense!
The Drunken Ranger!-keeping Devs honest since 2012
Also playing a dual-wielding Saracen
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsY42S8E3-bNo7koW7oFZug

The Drunken Ranger’s Guide to Drunken Rangery
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2902

Re: Mid is the new Alb

MeatBicycle wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 6:18 AM
And what about the rvr in the past few days? Is Mid really the problem here? Its about 2-3h a day where Mid has a 'strong zerg'. Rest of the day Mids are just unorganized and the Midgard fz looks like a christmas tree (speaking mostly for EU Time). At the moment Hibs are pve-ing for the next relic, so even the US time don't seem to be that good for Mid anymore. I really don't care about that but the crying about the Midgard 'Zerg' is just hilarious. Every few weeks somethings changes because people are switching their mainrealm for a while and then it goes back to another realm.

It's always the same, raidleaders switch around and the realm losing the zergleaders start suffering. If it stays like this i am sure that soon there will be whines about a different realm (a small glimpse into the future is the "albernia"-relicraid whine...as if it is somehow surprising that a realm that dominated relics gets teamed up on). It's also why i have respect for pilzpower. As much as you can laugh about some of his actions that seem ridiculous for a zergleader....he doesn't give up and he stands for his realm. Without him Hibernia would have been gone months ago and he is an important part of the phoenix server framework.

Re: Mid is the new Alb

Cadebrennus wrote:
Wed 5 Feb 2020 2:00 PM
I would vehemently disagree with you in that more modern games require skill. Let's compare WoW and ESO PvP to DAOC's PvP. I got incredibly bored with ESO because the battles became much more predictable than DAOC's battles. In both ESO and WoW the winner was determined by their temp and not their actual skill. At least here on Phoenix the bar is much lower for putting together a suit for RvR, and then it's also the abilities of the player and class after that that determine your chances of winning a fight.

Mmm.. first of all, modern games aren't all mmorpg. You can look for battle design requiring high skill on other types of games (lol/dota/battlerite/etc...)

And even in the mmorpg genre, there are tons of games requiring higher skill then daoc…. and yeah, Wow is definetly one of them if you played high level arena fights (I got bored in the end, but it was clearly a higher skill ceiling)
But there is also Aion or Blade and Soul for example

Also, even if it's true that DAoC has a low barrier of entry to go rvr because all the stuff are similar (I really love the way you can build your own sc in daoc), we can't overlook the fact that the rank plays a huge role aswell

Between a 10L group with all RAs and 5L group with all RAs… there is definetly a gap

Though I admit, the gap isn't impossible to manage


Anyway, when you talk about skill gap, you have to take into account when comparing that the others factors are similar (cooldown, stuff, terrain, …)

Even if to compare a game to another, you have to take into account how often the skill is really taken into account and not erased by some other factors (like stuff in Aion yeah, or even in wow at some points)




A lot of DAoC's skill cap is going through the lack of ergonomy :]
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Re: Mid is the new Alb

i dsiagree that in theory wow has a higher skill ceiling than daoc.
Daocs interuppt and CC system is far more punishing for misplays, as well as requiring coordination between 8people VS 8people makes it immensely complicated.

But that is theory. I agree that in practice daoc's skillrequirements are very often secondary because of many other factors influencing fights, which doesn't happen in an arena-based esports environment. A huge part of DAoCs skill is not getting surprised and picking an advantageous engagement, while avoiding disadvantaged ones. The asymmetric possibilities of different realms in that regard disqualify DAOC already from being an esport. But that doesn't mean that the skill-ceiling is lower. It just means that less encounters overall are decided by the skill difference between the fighting parties.

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