Re: Current state of the Thane?

Harvest wrote:
Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:47 AM
Hi guys,

I'm new of this Server and I always loved the Thane, I noticed that they Changed/Added/Buffed a lot of things in that Class.

How it is now? Is it wanted in 8v8? Is it strong?
Good fun class

Re: Current state of the Thane?

fun class for solo, small scale and zerg. not really in decent 8v8 because warrior does a better job at peeling/guarding and casters do a better job at dealing dmg.
however there might be some niche setups that could work with thanes (energy debuff trains)

i would love to see ragnarok with dd coming to the thane btw that might actually make the thane desireable in 8v8
Horg solo Hunter Einherjar Lone Enforcer ~42,8% solo kills
Eik solo Shadowblade Flammen Fru ~50% solo kills

Re: Current state of the Thane?

inoeth wrote: i would love to see ragnarok with dd coming to the thane btw that might actually make the thane desireable in 8v8

Yikes, that would completely break them. They are already ridiculously strong solo/small man -- especially if you abuse cheesy mechanics (numb/snare style/nuke, static/re-slam). Some classes just aren't going to be optimal in 8 man's and that's okay.

Re: Current state of the Thane?

Exploder wrote:
Wed 17 Feb 2021 5:23 PM
inoeth wrote: i would love to see ragnarok with dd coming to the thane btw that might actually make the thane desireable in 8v8

Yikes, that would completely break them. They are already ridiculously strong solo/small man -- especially if you abuse cheesy mechanics (numb/snare style/nuke, static/re-slam). Some classes just aren't going to be optimal in 8 man's and that's okay.

if you get ragna, you cant get red nukes, or no slam so that would be far from "breaking" them.
Horg solo Hunter Einherjar Lone Enforcer ~42,8% solo kills
Eik solo Shadowblade Flammen Fru ~50% solo kills

Re: Current state of the Thane?

Yes, great idea. Let's implement one of the worst changes ever seen on live to shoehorn an already strong class into a consistent role in 8v8 play. Group versus group play is largely a question of optimization-- this is why proper hybrids will rarely find consistent success in the format outside of gimmicky roles. When a Thane is casting on a target you'd really rather have a proper caster in its place, and when a Thane is meleeing a target you'd really rather have a proper melee in its place. Phoenix attempted to address this by essentially increasing both aspects of the Thane's skillset to be a little more powerful, and I think the changes were pretty successful overall. You aren't losing quite as much when taking a Thane instead of a more specialized class, plus they have ST. The downside is you are still losing out comparatively in almost any situation the Thane finds itself in, and the flexibility isn't as valuable in a meta game revolving around efficiency and specialization.

Live's designers understood this issue too, and realized that in order to give certain hybrids a role in a game type that revolves around specialization you had to make hybrids specialized. The solution was to massively buff hybrid melee DPS across the board, and to lazily award a number of classes a leviathan-type style without any consideration of class identity and balance in other styles of play. Thanes and Valkyries received massively buffed style lines with anytime DDs and leviathan. Valewalkers received the GR/conflag chain as well as a change that made BB a two style chain. Not only did these changes have the undesirable effect of homogenizing builds for the classes they affected (sword was clearly the superior weapon line, and 50 scythe was not optional), but they served to massively increase the DPS of the classes affected. So now we had hybrids that were essentially specialized in terms of being melee DPS, and they would be used in competitive groups on the assist train. Or at least that was the idea (they still didn't have stoicism...)

The problem is no consideration was given to how badly this wrecked the balance in other parts of the game. See, there is a fundamental problem with leviathan-type mechanics-- there is essentially no counter play if you do not have purge available or the type of reliable spam healing you'd find in an 8v8. If a Reaver slams you and you don't purge you have almost no chance of turning the fight around if they get a full series of levis off. The fight is over before it began and you are relying on a 10-15m CD to counter a combination that they can use any time. Now, imagine giving this capability to classes that don't have a fairly weak spell line and relatively low stats across the board. It becomes even more problematic. All of a sudden the solo and small man landscape is purely made up of the classes that have access to these proc styles because they were already fairly viable, and now they have access to massive situational DPS that cannot be avoided without purge. The visible meta game becomes purely focused around being able to counter these overpowered classes in some way if not playing them outright. This is much like what we are seeing currently on Phoenix with much of the visible meta being primarily focused around dealing with assassins in some way.

The reality is some classes will simply never be viable in 8v8 gameplay. Not only is this completely OK, but it is to be expected. The goal with design decisions should never be to force optimization for the sake of the 8v8 game mode, but it should be to buff weak classes while retaining their identity. It is fine that Thanes aren't the best in groups but are great at solo/small man/zerging. They received appropriate buffs and now seem to be in a great spot relative to other classes without becoming levi bots.

Re: Current state of the Thane?

well VW are already pretty strong and are run in 8v8 setups quite alot while thanes still fill a niche role.
and well you did not really point out why a dd style thane would be any different from a reaver.
imo the style change on live was the best thing they could have done to thanes, they were actually playable and desired.

btw there was no change to melee for thanes here afaik, dont know where you took that from. yes casted dd got a bit better but as you mentioned it is still better to get an actual caster.

"The reality is some classes will simply never be viable in 8v8 gameplay" - wow ok now you got me, absolutely!....
Horg solo Hunter Einherjar Lone Enforcer ~42,8% solo kills
Eik solo Shadowblade Flammen Fru ~50% solo kills

Re: Current state of the Thane?

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 11:05 AM
well VW are already pretty strong and are run in 8v8 setups quite alot while thanes still fill a niche role.

I only mentioned Valewalkers as the change to their weapon lines was similar to that of the Thane and Valk.

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 11:05 AM
and well you did not really point out why a dd style thane would be any different from a reaver.

It wouldn't be. The reason that is a problem is the entire third paragraph of my post. And, while it isn't worth a sidebar, I don't think this change even made them preferred in 8v8s on classic servers as they still didn't have charge or stoicism and heavy tanks had received their buffs. They completely distorted the solo and small man game, and the change didn't even have its intended effect because other classes were still more specialized.

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 11:05 AM
imo the style change on live was the best thing they could have done to thanes, they were actually playable and desired.

The point of my post was to explain why that type of change is not a good way to balance the game.

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 11:05 AM
btw there was no change to melee for thanes here afaik, dont know where you took that from. yes casted dd got a bit better but as you mentioned it is still better to get an actual caster.

A melee resist debuff proc would be considered an improvement to their melee.

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 11:05 AM
"The reality is some classes will simply never be viable in 8v8 gameplay" - wow ok now you got me, absolutely!....

Again, part of what I was trying to point out with my post is that changes to increase a class' efficiency with the goal of wedging them into an already existent 8 man role is generally not a good plan, and especially so when using a particularly problematic ability like Leviathan. Generally you want to move a kit's power away from those types of abilities to create better game play.

It is OK if a class is successful in solo & small man play, but less so in optimized 8v8 set ups. Suboptimal classes in certain play styles are an inevitability once a meta game is established in a game with this many class options. Perhaps there is a good change that can be made to the class that isn't as sweeping as arbitrarily adding leviathan, but it would have to added with the goal in mind of not massively distorting the balance for a large subsection of the game.

Re: Current state of the Thane?

i played thane on live and they were really a thing there after the style changes, yes they dont have stoic but as soon as they have immunity thanes really shine and when rooted they can still do some rping from range. still dont know what this has to do with solo game play when on the other side reavers got it by design and back style dmg is easily countered by purge.
yeah the debuff proc... very situational tbh. one could say it debuffs your instants and dd procs, true, but the increase in dmg is nothing to be considered a massive buff or something.

what i want to say is that atm thane is not really a decent option for 8v8 and it would be nice if there was because reavers/VW are a viable option.
Horg solo Hunter Einherjar Lone Enforcer ~42,8% solo kills
Eik solo Shadowblade Flammen Fru ~50% solo kills

Re: Current state of the Thane?

inoeth wrote:
Tue 23 Feb 2021 9:42 AM
i played thane on live and they were really a thing there after the style changes, yes they dont have stoic but as soon as they have immunity thanes really shine and when rooted they can still do some rping from range.

What class doesn't do well when it has CC immunity? Maybe ToA gave Thanes some additional tricks that made them desirable, but I'm positive on classic servers (which much better reflect the gameplay here) the general opinion once the changes had settled in was that they were still not desirable due to light and heavy tanks being simply more efficient at the specialized role they were used in.

inoeth wrote:
Tue 23 Feb 2021 9:42 AM
still dont know what this has to do with solo game play when on the other side reavers got it by design and back style dmg is easily countered by purge.

Then I don't think you actually read or understood what I wrote because instead of refuting my points about why this is bad design you are literally just restating an argument I addressed in my initial post.

inoeth wrote:
Tue 23 Feb 2021 9:42 AM
yeah the debuff proc... very situational tbh. one could say it debuffs your instants and dd procs, true, but the increase in dmg is nothing to be considered a massive buff or something.

It improved the class over all, and can be very potent in a 1v1, especially when the Thane abuses numb/snares. Not sure why you are hung up on this point.

inoeth wrote:
Tue 23 Feb 2021 9:42 AM
what i want to say is that atm thane is not really a decent option for 8v8 and it would be nice if there was because reavers/VW are a viable option.

That's fine, but handing out Leviathan ain't the answer boss.