Reapply mechanics from Lifebane and/or dots

Started 13 Jun 2021
by Saroi
in Suggestions
At the beginning with the LA/CD/DW buffs I thought that Sins overall were in a good state but with a lot of different changes to the enervating poison and dot buffs I think that Sins are a bit overtuned. As it seems that not any of those changes seem to get weaken or reverted, I would like to make a different suggestion because there is just too much damage that bypasses the armor/defense advantage that other classes should have.

Change the reapply mechanics from either Lifebane and/or dots from weapons like live poison mechanics. Meaning you can only reapply when the dot duration is over. In most cases even if you manage to kill a Sin, he will just hit you with a new lifebane poison for 5XX extra damage after his death. Even higher if he gets a new dot proc again off, that is can easily add up to something like 750-1k. I think a change would also help with the overall complain a lot have about disease. This does not change the thing with disease but atleast you can still walk with having more HP, instead of having disease and end up with like 1-5% HP(if you are lucky not to die) were you can do absolutely nothing. I am only talking about the damage ones here, not about enervating or disease or the poison weapon swap in general.

I also think this helps other weapons a lot because you barely see anything except dot. Pretty much every SB now is axe in using Dragonmight as Main. Most Nightshades I have seen are pierce. And even Tanks (2h) are having weapons with dots(Both feathers and crafted for the double dot effect).
Sun 13 Jun 2021 10:35 PM by Irkeno
Agree. Played both sides. Dot procs, and all this def pen is too much.

Feel like its too easy as the sin(my own pov), and impossible to counter as the tank(my own pov), not sure if Saroi is actually Yarna but if so the dude is one of the BMFs of the game who doesnt complain lightly.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:19 AM by boridi
Sure, just make sure you do the same for casted dots.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:40 AM by Artamentous
boridi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:19 AM
Sure, just make sure you do the same for casted dots.

Yes, and make sure Casters get stealth. It's only fair right?
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:49 AM by Nephamael
At the beginning with the LA/CD/DW buffs I thought that Sins overall were in a good state but with a lot of different changes to the enervating poison and dot buffs I think that Sins are a bit overtuned. As it seems that not any of those changes seem to get weaken or reverted, I would like to make a different suggestion because there is just too much damage that bypasses the armor/defense advantage that other classes should have.

Change the reapply mechanics from either Lifebane and/or dots from weapons like live poison mechanics. Meaning you can only reapply when the dot duration is over. In most cases even if you manage to kill a Sin, he will just hit you with a new lifebane poison for 5XX extra damage after his death. Even higher if he gets a new dot proc again off, that is can easily add up to something like 750-1k. I think a change would also help with the overall complain a lot have about disease. This does not change the thing with disease but atleast you can still walk with having more HP, instead of having disease and end up with like 1-5% HP(if you are lucky not to die) were you can do absolutely nothing. I am only talking about the damage ones here, not about enervating or disease or the poison weapon swap in general.

I also think this helps other weapons a lot because you barely see anything except dot. Pretty much every SB now is axe in using Dragonmight as Main. Most Nightshades I have seen are pierce. And even Tanks (2h) are having weapons with dots(Both feathers and crafted for the double dot effect).

Maybe the enervating dot is the problem, not the weapon dots?

I would like to see a feather dot weapon for every weapontype as this alone makes some speclines non-viable. Also every weapontype should have at least 1 stat debuff proc.

Those 2 missing pieces will be otherwise a major problem for the style rework to achieve, what it aims for, for the solo game.


Also upping dd procs (except lifetap) to 125 dmg would be a great idea for proc balance.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:27 AM by Zonartica
As rank 12 I already have trouble against certain class, so if we start to nerf things that help us I don't think we'll be fine ...
When a rank 7 thane hitted me for -600 with parry 40%...
Same for tank with IP 3-4
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:46 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Zonartica wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:27 AM
When a rank 7 thane hitted me for -600 with parry 40%...

Did you seriously just compare a two-handed crit w/ at least a 3.5s delay to the DoT reapplication mechanic you abuse at 1.5s?
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:04 AM by gotwqqd
Either disallow poison application on weapons in bags
Or
Require poison spec to obtain the skill….no composite 50
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:32 AM by WildWilbur
"I don't like stealther and hate assassins so plz nerf them!"

Yeah, we got that - for more that 20 years now.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:32 AM by Saroi
Nephamael wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:49 AM
Maybe the enervating dot is the problem, not the weapon dots?

I would like to see a feather dot weapon for every weapontype as this alone makes some speclines non-viable. Also every weapontype should have at least 1 stat debuff proc.

Those 2 missing pieces will be otherwise a major problem for the style rework to achieve, what it aims for, for the solo game.


Also upping dd procs (except lifetap) to 125 dmg would be a great idea for proc balance.

The dot weapon is a problem, because it is just overtuned. As one of the first SB to use Dragonmight with offhand crafted dot back in OF, I can say that the dot used to tick 3X-5X damage, averaging something between 180-190 over hits duration. Now you have more consistant ticks but Devs decided to not go the middle route of something like 4X ticks but the 5X ticks. Here and there I see a 60 or 61 tick. Sometimes more if a Nightshade comes up with Mastery of Magery.

If we take let us say 52 damage, you end up with 260 damage over its duration. If we pick 55 damage, it is 275. That is lke a 50% damage buff and then you have 2 of them. Most weapons have dots but their speed is just not good to be used and I don't think it is a good idea making everyone have to use dot just because it is way higher.

Increasing DD would make it on pair with the dot, but then you still have more damage overall and LT remains weaker. At this point we are then nearly on live level were there are 150 DD procs that some special weapons had and we are still missing on HP that live has. That would also lean hard to the who has better proc and resist luck wins.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:48 AM by Saroi
Irkeno wrote:
Sun 13 Jun 2021 10:35 PM
Agree. Played both sides. Dot procs, and all this def pen is too much.

Feel like its too easy as the sin(my own pov), and impossible to counter as the tank(my own pov), not sure if Saroi is actually Yarna but if so the dude is one of the BMFs of the game who doesnt complain lightly.

No I am not Yarna. I am the one who says he his not nice!

But he agrees with me. Makes him a bit nicer.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:56 AM by Saroi
WildWilbur wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:32 AM
"I don't like stealther and hate assassins so plz nerf them!"

Yeah, we got that - for more that 20 years now.

Well jokes on you, I mostly only play Sins, so I like them and can speak of experience from both sides. And when all those changes happened back then and I was playing Sin I already said they were a bad idea.

And about the nerf, well for most of the part Sins are the ones complaining they are too weak and wanted buffs. And they did receive a lot of buffs and at one point it is just too much, especially the Enervating hitting before PA/Backstab because this also loses its Main purpose. As it was to have them worth it, the main thing is still to hit vulnabler targets for more. But this is not the case. Any tank receives more damage now than a caster. I don't think anyone can think this is really fine that higher defense/armor people getting more melee damage.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:11 AM by Saroi
gotwqqd wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:04 AM
Either disallow poison application on weapons in bags
Or
Require poison spec to obtain the skill….no composite 50

Well I didn't want to have this discussion that is why I wrote that this is just about lifebane and/or the weapon dots because I am against it removing the ability to swap weapons with poisons because when I play my Sin I do like the switch of weapons and poison is a big part of their kite. Especially the enervating poison is very important.

The composite 50 is something that was balanced for them with their spec points because they do have to spec into 5 lines. As a Sin you wouldn't even get composite weapon if you had to have 50 envenom. When live changed it that composite doesn't work, they have been giving 2.8 spec(SB/NS) points and Inf 2.9. So that wouldn't really change much then.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:16 AM by Tamy
Saroi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:48 AM
Irkeno wrote:
Sun 13 Jun 2021 10:35 PM
Agree. Played both sides. Dot procs, and all this def pen is too much.

Feel like its too easy as the sin(my own pov), and impossible to counter as the tank(my own pov), not sure if Saroi is actually Yarna but if so the dude is one of the BMFs of the game who doesnt complain lightly.

No I am not Yarna. I am the one who says he his not nice!

But he agrees with me. Makes him a bit nicer.

I'm actually the nicest person around!

I agree regarding the dot game...which I try to exploit on every solo char that I play. It comes as far as I sacrifice weapon dmg by taking a fast mh so I'm able to use the dot proc on it. And I stated from the very beginning as well that the ws/con enerv hitting before everything else is just plain stupid.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:27 AM by keen
Poisons in general are too strong on phoenix. Lifebane can be boosted like no other dmg RA to 75%!! and makes lvl5 more point efficient than lvl1. Should have tops the same scaling as reflex attack imo with 50% lvl5.
Secondly poison debuff values are not scaled to buff potions like champ debuffs are. Poison debuff values are just taken from live with BB and +155 stats instead of +50 as is on phoenix.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:07 AM by WildWilbur
Saroi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:56 AM
WildWilbur wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:32 AM
"I don't like stealther and hate assassins so plz nerf them!"

Yeah, we got that - for more that 20 years now.

Well jokes on you, I mostly only play Sins, so I like them and can speak of experience from both sides. And when all those changes happened back then and I was playing Sin I already said they were a bad idea.

And about the nerf, well for most of the part Sins are the ones complaining they are too weak and wanted buffs. And they did receive a lot of buffs and at one point it is just too much, especially the Enervating hitting before PA/Backstab because this also loses its Main purpose. As it was to have them worth it, the main thing is still to hit vulnabler targets for more. But this is not the case. Any tank receives more damage now than a caster. I don't think anyone can think this is really fine that higher defense/armor people getting more melee damage.

Ah, I misunderstood! You were saying "I'm playing assassins and I feel being too strong so plz nerf me!"?

Yeah, now it make sense...
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:00 PM by Saroi
WildWilbur wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:07 AM
Ah, I misunderstood! You were saying "I'm playing assassins and I feel being too strong so plz nerf me!"?

Yeah, now it make sense...

Since you are pretty biased and have nothing reasonable to say anways, yes exactly that is what I am saying.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:10 PM by DJ2000
Saroi is not wrong, though.

Unlike the debuff change, from Str/Con to Ws/Con, which was requested, the delayed-damage-part change was not.
And back then, it was uniformly considered and called a straight-up buff to the archetype, which happened on the Devs own volition as a trade-off for an earlier nerf to the DoT mechanics.
There have been also other changes prior and after to that as well that changed the overall status of the Archetype. Which the Devs deemed to be in an "acceptable/ok" spot.

Viper only works on DoTs from to Envenom Line (Lifebane) and not on any other DoT, from any kind of Gear.

Question is:
Are the DoT weapons too powerful? Or is the "stacking" the problem?

Every melee class can have at least 2 DoTs stacked thanks to available gear (Feather + craft), so it's not an Assassin only feature.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:25 PM by CowwoC
Saroi wrote:
Sun 13 Jun 2021 7:31 PM
At the beginning with the LA/CD/DW buffs I thought that Sins overall were in a good state but with a lot of different changes to the enervating poison and dot buffs I think that Sins are a bit overtuned. As it seems that not any of those changes seem to get weaken or reverted, I would like to make a different suggestion because there is just too much damage that bypasses the armor/defense advantage that other classes should have.

Change the reapply mechanics from either Lifebane and/or dots from weapons like live poison mechanics. Meaning you can only reapply when the dot duration is over. In most cases even if you manage to kill a Sin, he will just hit you with a new lifebane poison for 5XX extra damage after his death. Even higher if he gets a new dot proc again off, that is can easily add up to something like 750-1k. I think a change would also help with the overall complain a lot have about disease. This does not change the thing with disease but atleast you can still walk with having more HP, instead of having disease and end up with like 1-5% HP(if you are lucky not to die) were you can do absolutely nothing. I am only talking about the damage ones here, not about enervating or disease or the poison weapon swap in general.

I also think this helps other weapons a lot because you barely see anything except dot. Pretty much every SB now is axe in using Dragonmight as Main. Most Nightshades I have seen are pierce. And even Tanks (2h) are having weapons with dots(Both feathers and crafted for the double dot effect).
Isn't the purpose of Sins to kill their targets with their class bound trait, poison?

Saroi wrote:
Sun 13 Jun 2021 7:31 PM
In most cases even if you manage to kill a Sin, he will just hit you with a new lifebane poison for 5XX extra damage after his death. Even higher if he gets a new dot proc again off, that is can easily add up to something like 750-1k.
I don't understand that sentence. How can a dead Sin hit you with a new lifebane poison and his dot proc?

Saroi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:56 AM
[...]Sins[..]did receive a lot of buffs
Can you list them please so that it's easier to follow your argument for your suggestion.

I think everyone, even visis, are using dot proc weapons, because dmg proc weapons are simply too weak.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:29 PM by Irkeno
Its purely that Triple DOT is overtuned right now, either cap the number of dots that stack, or reduce its effectiveness.

Adding a 250dmg (over the whole duration) dot available on 2 diff weaps simultaneously (additional 500dmg) to stack with the 500 from lifebane.

Proc those pretty reliably... and its very hard to lose.

Genuinely feels boring to play it with that much power on tripledot sb or tripledot NS.

The bad weaponspeed is turning infs off it, but if that was a normal speed they'd also be insane

Enerv fine, sin damage generally fine. Sins who dont triple dot, fine to fight, win/loss based on skill.

Triple dot, i feel a bit guilty using it tbh.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:38 PM by Irkeno
DJ2000 wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:10 PM
Question is:
Are the DoT weapons too powerful? Or is the "stacking" the problem?

Every melee class can have at least 2 DoTs stacked thanks to available gear (Feather + craft), so it's not an Assassin only feature.

It's both. The damage from a single proc is 2.5x better than a DD proc. maybe even more.

That + Stacking is an issue.

But the assassin advantage is this increases their dps to a tipping point when combined with all their other strengths, and shaves off their weaknesses (extended fights) as the fight is over so fast. So it's the synergy it has with all the other elements that pushes it over the top

Plus if that fails, then 3 dots will probably finish an opponent post death anyway
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:39 PM by Kwall0311
Irkeno wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:29 PM
Its purely that Triple DOT is overtuned right now, either cap the number of dots that stack, or reduce its effectiveness.


Youll be glad to hear that with the new styles, they now have access to a 20 bleed style off evade! Caps at 3 swings, and you can refresh it with one swing every 20 seconds for an extra 37 dot
Mon 14 Jun 2021 2:34 PM by DJ2000
Irkeno wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:38 PM
DJ2000 wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:10 PM
Question is:
Are the DoT weapons too powerful? Or is the "stacking" the problem?

Every melee class can have at least 2 DoTs stacked thanks to available gear (Feather + craft), so it's not an Assassin only feature.

It's both. The damage from a single proc is 2.5x better than a DD proc. maybe even more.

That + Stacking is an issue.

But the assassin advantage is this increases their dps to a tipping point when combined with all their other strengths, and shaves off their weaknesses (extended fights) as the fight is over so fast. So it's the synergy it has with all the other elements that pushes it over the top

Plus if that fails, then 3 dots will probably finish an opponent post death anyway

The question remains. What do you want to hit with a hammer?
Assassins Archetype or DoT Gear and Stacking, as the later 2 are archetype unrelated.
Depending on what will be hit, the outcome will vary drastically, and may not result in the desired effect.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 2:56 PM by Magesty
Good luck with this thread. I see the usual assassin Stan answers are rolling in already.

“But I lost a fight to a visible melee one time”

“Make an assassin and fight my X”

“Get good shitter”

*entire post that misrepresents either the entirety of what you’re saying or some small detail they seem to be purposefully misunderstanding*

It’s fairly obvious to anyone that has played DAoC before that assassins are over tuned here and their ability to do massive amounts of magic damage/debuff con (and thus bypass physical defenses) is a huge part of the problem. I have lost fights where assassins actually hit me with their weapons only a handful of times. Con debuff + viper + DoT proc(s) is comically overwhelming, especially if you’re a lower HP pool hybrid.

As a visible I’ve dropped all other offensive procs in favor of DoTs, and it seems pretty clear that you’re at a disadvantage if you aren’t trying stack them.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 3:09 PM by CowwoC
Magesty wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 2:56 PM
Good luck with this thread. I see the usual assassin Stan answers are rolling in already.

“But I lost a fight to a visible melee one time”

“Make an assassin and fight my X”

“Get good shitter”

*entire post that misrepresents either the entirety of what you’re saying or some small detail they seem to be purposefully misunderstanding*

It’s fairly obvious to anyone that has played DAoC before that assassins are over tuned here and their ability to do massive amounts of magic damage/debuff con (and thus bypass physical defenses) is a huge part of the problem. I have lost fights where assassins actually hit me with their weapons only a handful of times. Con debuff + viper + DoT proc(s) is comically overwhelming, especially if you’re a lower HP pool hybrid.

As a visible I’ve dropped all other offensive procs in favor of DoTs, and it seems pretty clear that you’re at a disadvantage if you aren’t trying stack them.

So far you are the only one who tries to let the thread derail with your post. Do you even realize that you mock yourself with the first part of your post and then exactly post what you described? Awful.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 3:29 PM by Noashakra
CowwoC wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 3:09 PM
So far you are the only one who tries to let the thread derail with your post. Do you even realize that you mock yourself with the first part of your post and then exactly post what you described? Awful.

He is trying to provoke a response to say "see I told you!"
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:33 PM by Siouxsie
Magesty wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 2:56 PM
It’s fairly obvious to anyone that has played DAoC before that assassins are over tuned here and their ability to do massive amounts of magic damage/debuff con (and thus bypass physical defenses) is a huge part of the problem. I have lost fights where assassins actually hit me with their weapons only a handful of times. Con debuff + viper + DoT proc(s) is comically overwhelming, especially if you’re a lower HP pool hybrid.

Quoted for truth. Every other daoc server I have played on, including live.. it would be a suicide to fight a tank as an assassin.
Assassins are insanely overtuned here, especially nightshades because of their extra casting ability (solution: remove mastery of magery and cut the nightshade's DD spells in half! They already do enough damage with bloody viper 5!)
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:18 PM by boridi
Reality of an assassin vs. solo-specced tank:

https://streamable.com/tckfk9

I'll admit I'm a newb for letting him get a side stun off. Notice that his first style is 0:11 and I'm dead at 0:21. 10 seconds isn't enough to time to apply every poison through parries/evades/resists, "apply" both DOT procs (this thread acts like they're automatic), and then reapply poisons/procs after his purge at 0:15. And he didn't even react until after my second style.

Also just noticed: He got off a double DOT on me. Nerf BM DOTs! Triple DOT if you count bleed!!
Mon 14 Jun 2021 9:25 PM by Kwall0311
boridi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:18 PM
Reality of an assassin vs. solo-specced tank:


You mean, the reality of an assassin vs reflex 5 ?

Saying solo tank is very misleading
Mon 14 Jun 2021 9:26 PM by Noashakra
Siouxsie wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:33 PM
Quoted for truth. Every other daoc server I have played on, including live.. it would be a suicide to fight a tank as an assassin.
Assassins are insanely overtuned here, especially nightshades because of their extra casting ability (solution: remove mastery of magery and cut the nightshade's DD spells in half! They already do enough damage with bloody viper 5!)

dafuq are you smoking. DW 50% vs shield/evade on live and 25% here + Lifebane reapplying with each swing when you switched weapons.
How are the assassins overtuned here compared to live, people on this forums are on crack. It's selective memory. You can say they are strong, but they are nerfed on phoenix compared to live on the same version. It's just that players at this time were quite bad (I remember my best friend who played with garrot spam, nothing else).

I wasn't a fan of the PA buff myself (give us back the old one with more constit on the debuff), but a heavy tank RR6+ with defensive RA is really hard to kill for a sin, after 8/9L it's impossible. And let's not speak about RA5 light tanks.
It was impossible for my NS 9L to kill Euloggie 1vs1 after his 7L.

I am all for nerfing double dots on weapons procs. No problem here.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 10:29 PM by Irkeno
boridi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:18 PM
Reality of an assassin vs. solo-specced tank:

https://streamable.com/tckfk9

I'll admit I'm a newb for letting him get a side stun off. Notice that his first style is 0:11 and I'm dead at 0:21. 10 seconds isn't enough to time to apply every poison through parries/evades/resists, "apply" both DOT procs (this thread acts like they're automatic), and then reapply poisons/procs after his purge at 0:15. And he didn't even react until after my second style.

Also just noticed: He got off a double DOT on me. Nerf BM DOTs! Triple DOT if you count bleed!!

Bad performance from SB vs good RA5 BM is not a good representation.

Im pretty objective from all sides, mixed experimentation on toons on both sides. Triple dot as a tool is overtuned right now.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 6:55 AM by Noashakra
Irkeno wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 10:29 PM
boridi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:18 PM
Reality of an assassin vs. solo-specced tank:

https://streamable.com/tckfk9

I'll admit I'm a newb for letting him get a side stun off. Notice that his first style is 0:11 and I'm dead at 0:21. 10 seconds isn't enough to time to apply every poison through parries/evades/resists, "apply" both DOT procs (this thread acts like they're automatic), and then reapply poisons/procs after his purge at 0:15. And he didn't even react until after my second style.

Also just noticed: He got off a double DOT on me. Nerf BM DOTs! Triple DOT if you count bleed!!

Bad performance from SB vs good RA5 BM is not a good representation.

Im pretty objective from all sides, mixed experimentation on toons on both sides. Triple dot as a tool is overtuned right now.

RA5 = 50% of your life with you just hitting.
It's a pretty good representation of what a light tank can do. The only way to beat them is to kite with the dot.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:00 PM by Saroi
boridi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:18 PM
Reality of an assassin vs. solo-specced tank:

https://streamable.com/tckfk9

I'll admit I'm a newb for letting him get a side stun off. Notice that his first style is 0:11 and I'm dead at 0:21. 10 seconds isn't enough to time to apply every poison through parries/evades/resists, "apply" both DOT procs (this thread acts like they're automatic), and then reapply poisons/procs after his purge at 0:15. And he didn't even react until after my second style.

Also just noticed: He got off a double DOT on me. Nerf BM DOTs! Triple DOT if you count bleed!!

I don't even want to list all the things that are so wrong here so I'll just keep it with the Poisons because you wrote about not enough time to apply.

You hit him with opener, ws/con Main + lifebane offhand. You then switched your Mainhand. First hit was evade, but offhand hit. After that you hit Mainhand(Garotte style) with offhand. Even though you had a new Mainhand, there was no poison applied. Where is the disease? Where is the str debuff? You got side stunned and then hit him with offhand but again no new poison here too.

After he purged you had hit him with Mainhand(Garotte) and offhand right away but was no new poison and your Mainhand hit procced a Dragonmight dot too. Then parries came in and you got another Main + Offhand hit there, this time with poison but the ws/con was resisted.

So you had so many hits with both weapons on him but most of the time you didn't have any new Poison on him. You can have 10 hours time if you don't even have poison on your weapons. This is not reality, this is just forgetting either to reapply or switching wrong weapons.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:35 PM by Tamy
Not to mention the fact that PA'ing a high rr tank is a really bad idea. Backstab ftw.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:44 PM by CowwoC
Saroi wrote:
boridi wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:18 PM
Reality of an assassin vs. solo-specced tank:

https://streamable.com/tckfk9

I'll admit I'm a newb for letting him get a side stun off. Notice that his first style is 0:11 and I'm dead at 0:21. 10 seconds isn't enough to time to apply every poison through parries/evades/resists, "apply" both DOT procs (this thread acts like they're automatic), and then reapply poisons/procs after his purge at 0:15. And he didn't even react until after my second style.

Also just noticed: He got off a double DOT on me. Nerf BM DOTs! Triple DOT if you count bleed!!

I don't even want to list all the things that are so wrong here so I'll just keep it with the Poisons because you wrote about not enough time to apply.

You hit him with opener, ws/con Main + lifebane offhand. You then switched your Mainhand. First hit was evade, but offhand hit. After that you hit Mainhand(Garotte style) with offhand. Even though you had a new Mainhand, there was no poison applied. Where is the disease? Where is the str debuff? You got side stunned and then hit him with offhand but again no new poison here too.

After he purged you had hit him with Mainhand(Garotte) and offhand right away but was no new poison and your Mainhand hit procced a Dragonmight dot too. Then parries came in and you got another Main + Offhand hit there, this time with poison but the ws/con was resisted.

So you had so many hits with both weapons on him but most of the time you didn't have any new Poison on him. You can have 10 hours time if you don't even have poison on your weapons. This is not reality, this is just forgetting either to reapply or switching wrong weapons.

Don't fool yourself. Every half decent light tank eats sins alive, even if the sin is 3 or 4 ranks above the tank. Actually poison is the only way to have a chance to get through a tank and yes every other class besides caster are legit targets too for sins and always were. Besides - how many solo caster do you see walk around? Sins mostly fight other sins or try everything else what passes their way solo if they feel they can take the fight.

That you still did not answer to my questions to your previous post - that shows. Same as it shows how desperately you try to rip the video apart - he even mentioned he was newb in that fight and why to apply poison is hard enough in a short fight like this. Not to mention that doofus did not even sweat to use ip. Considering now that he is rr11 and still loses to a rr7 tells you, that your "over tuned" is a great stretch from reality since there is never a perfect situation where everything works as you intend to.

Btw, getting sins nerfed will not result in less pain for you, it will just make them group up even more often and simply gank you over and over. That's what happened with archer after they got nerfed and had to group up to be still relevant and then again people complained about that.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:56 PM by Saroi
CowwoC wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:44 PM
Don't fool yourself. Every half decent light tank eats sins alive, even if the sin is 3 or 4 ranks above the tank. Actually poison is the only way to have a chance to get through a tank and yes every other class besides caster are legit targets too for sins and always were. Besides - how many solo caster do you see walk around? Sins mostly fight other sins or try everything else what passes their way solo if they feel they can take the fight.

That you still did not answer to my questions to your previous post - that shows. Same as it shows how desperately you try to rip the video apart - he even mentioned he was newb in that fight and why to apply poison is hard enough in a short fight like this. Not to mention that doofus did not even sweat to use ip.

I don't need to fool myself. I play SB myself and I have BM whispering me how strong I was and first Sin to kill them. Simply because the playstyle he used was just so wrong. The only true hard ones are Merc when they have DT or Heros with Moose. It is very much likely to beat Lighttanks etc, you just need to play different and actually use your tools. That is why I said I am not going into everything that is wrong here.

About your question, why should I answer about something that is written in my first sentence? If you don't know the actual numbers etc. because haven't played long enough here or so you can look them up.

He said newb about getting into side stun, not about poison apply. He said 10 seconds is not enough to get poison applied which I wrote about. He had several hits, both with Main and offhand in which he did not have any poison equipped. Not sure what that should show except the fact that he isn't using any? He only used Lifebane and ws/con, no disease and no str debuff and he also used no ASR style vs. a melee target.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM by Noashakra
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:14 PM by Sepplord
Boridi: 10 seconds isn't enough to time to apply every poison through parries/evades/resists
+video

Saroi: Uhh, you landed 6hits without poisons on your weapons in that timeframe

CowwoC: Why are you so desperate to nitpick the video




CowwoC wrote: Besides - how many solo caster do you see walk around?
Also unsure why that argument gets brought up so much. It basically boils down to: We win against casters so hard, that they have dissapeared from the solo world completely.
Why would you want to bring that up while you are trying to avert a nerf?

It does seem like someone is desperate, but i don't think its Saroi
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:15 PM by Saroi
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.

I saw Exo kill drunkstain and even drunkstain writing about Exo as the best and too strong in region chat.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM by keen
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:20 PM by CowwoC
Saroi wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:56 PM
I don't need to fool myself. I play SB myself and I have BM whispering me how strong I was and first Sin to kill them. Simply because the playstyle he used was just so wrong. The only true hard ones are Merc when they have DT or Heros with Moose. It is very much likely to beat Lighttanks etc, you just need to play different and actually use your tools. That is why I said I am not going into everything that is wrong here.

About your question, why should I answer about something that is written in my first sentence? If you don't know the actual numbers etc. because haven't played long enough here or so you can look them up.

He said newb about getting into side stun, not about poison apply. He said 10 seconds is not enough to get poison applied which I wrote about. He had several hits, both with Main and offhand in which he did not have any poison equipped. Not sure what that should show except the fact that he isn't using any? He only used Lifebane and ws/con, no disease and no str debuff and he also used no ASR style vs. a melee target.

Yes you do. Ok, you killed your BM friend and he tells you you are too strong. What is that gonna proof exactly? You even write it yourself, it's about using the whole set of tools, not just one. If a sin would stand in front of me as tank and kills me without anything other than spamming garotte and here and there poison - then i would agree and say, pls nerf poisons - but currently? The whine about sneaks in general really getting intense lately and that being said as someone who played visis most of the time.

My questions remain unanswered, as i thought that you could not answer to them. Maybe your post was slightly over tuned, mh?

And as i said, you can't expect that everything works out in your favor. The video shows exactly what it has to show, that without relying on applying poison perfectlys, you have simply no chance. Again, you said it yourself - you have to use all your tools. Poison is just one of them.
Sepplord wrote: Boridi: 10 seconds isn't enough to time to apply every poison through parries/evades/resists
+video

Saroi: Uhh, you landed 6hits without poisons on your weapons in that timeframe

CowwoC: Why are you so desperate to nitpick the video




CowwoC wrote: Besides - how many solo caster do you see walk around?
Also unsure why that argument gets brought up so much. It basically boils down to: We win against casters so hard, that they have dissapeared from the solo world completely.
Why would you want to bring that up while you are trying to avert a nerf?

It does seem like someone is desperate, but i don't think its Saroi

Have you actually read what i wrote? I doubt it. Solo casters are not running because stealther were farming them all day -lmao- where does this hoax come from? You barely see any solo, no matter which class, because you get zerged down by groups before you can even blink. As visi tank i would be glad to get jumped on by sneaks and not rolled over by 8mans.

Saroi wrote: I saw Exo kill drunkstain and even drunkstain writing about Exo as the best and too strong in region chat.

Which proofs nothing. I killed rr11s with rr5 and were killed by rr4s. I brought Exo down once to a handfull HP, against Drunkstain i not even did much but a scratch. It's all subjective and depends on a huge amount of factors. I doubt that drunkstain actually meant that Exo needs to be nerfed because he is too strong, he was probably simply acknowledging his good play style.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM by easytoremember
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:52 PM by keen
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
wether or not it should be possible is a different discussion, giving the fact that you can bind several keystrokes to one button, which makes strafing styles fairly easy. he just said it is impossible to beat a high rr tank as an assassin due to high mop and mob, which is just not the case since strafing circumvents those mechanics.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:11 PM by easytoremember
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:52 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
wether or not it should be possible is a different discussion, giving the fact that you can bind several keystrokes to one button, which makes strafing styles fairly easy. he just said it is impossible to beat a high rr tank as an assassin due to high mop and mob, which is just not the case since strafing circumvents those mechanics.
Now beat them without strafing? What you're treating as a given is not so
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:26 PM by evert
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:11 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:52 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
wether or not it should be possible is a different discussion, giving the fact that you can bind several keystrokes to one button, which makes strafing styles fairly easy. he just said it is impossible to beat a high rr tank as an assassin due to high mop and mob, which is just not the case since strafing circumvents those mechanics.
Now beat them without strafing? What you're treating as a given is not so

Literally don't get your argument... strafng is fine on this server (and every server ever) so arguing about a hypothetical Phoenix where strafing is cheating isn't very useful.

On this actual existing server it's a tool that can be used to circumvent the defenses of heavy tanks. On your imaginary server heavy tanks are OP and sins are fine - but that's not here.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:48 PM by easytoremember
evert wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:26 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:11 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:52 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
wether or not it should be possible is a different discussion, giving the fact that you can bind several keystrokes to one button, which makes strafing styles fairly easy. he just said it is impossible to beat a high rr tank as an assassin due to high mop and mob, which is just not the case since strafing circumvents those mechanics.
Now beat them without strafing? What you're treating as a given is not so

Literally don't get your argument... strafng is fine on this server (and every server ever) so arguing about a hypothetical Phoenix where strafing is cheating isn't very useful.

On this actual existing server it's a tool that can be used to circumvent the defenses of heavy tanks. On your imaginary server heavy tanks are OP and sins are fine - but that's not here.
In the same manner as valewalker an assassin is only OP when making use of strafe (or fighting a caster). A normal player doesn't strafe.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:53 PM by evert
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:48 PM
evert wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:26 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:11 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:52 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
wether or not it should be possible is a different discussion, giving the fact that you can bind several keystrokes to one button, which makes strafing styles fairly easy. he just said it is impossible to beat a high rr tank as an assassin due to high mop and mob, which is just not the case since strafing circumvents those mechanics.
Now beat them without strafing? What you're treating as a given is not so

Literally don't get your argument... strafng is fine on this server (and every server ever) so arguing about a hypothetical Phoenix where strafing is cheating isn't very useful.

On this actual existing server it's a tool that can be used to circumvent the defenses of heavy tanks. On your imaginary server heavy tanks are OP and sins are fine - but that's not here.
In the same manner as valewalker an assassin is only OP when making use of strafe (or fighting a caster). A normal player doesn't strafe.

Could you give me some kind of source for "normal player" that isn't your own opinion? You might not like strafing but you don't get to decide what other people do... if you don't want to strafe that's on you. You can play an assassin without using envenom too but that doesn't make assassins weak, that just means you aren't playing it to its full potential.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:00 PM by Magesty
This discussion is moving towards an age-old debate: Do you balance a game around the very best players who take advantage of everything provided, or do you balance around the average player?

In the case of assassin gameplay, it seems like the disparity between the best players and the average players is much larger than on most other melee characters, as there are a significant number of things an assassin can do to gain an edge. The best players will be doing things like quickly and consistently applying and reapplying all poisons, tracking weapon procs, avoiding defensive arcs, using proper openers, kiting when necessary, etc.

The average players will be significantly less effective at all of the above, and in some cases not doing even half of it. For assassins this means outputting and mitigating a significant portion of damage. On most classes there aren't nearly so many little things that can be done to gain an edge, and certainly not nearly so many that need to be tracked in such a short amount of time.

This disparity is seen often in balancing MOBAs-- high tier players are capable of managing difficult mechanics, timing cooldowns, coordinating with their teams, and landing skill shots much more effectively. So if you have a character that is able to really be pushed to the max by skilled hands, but average players can only eke out mediocre results, it is a difficult situation to manage. You'll see the character causing massive problems in high level play, but when your silver/gold type players try to emulate it the results are less than spectacular.

So, when it comes to balancing what do you do? You clearly need to reduce the character's power level if it is perma-banned or cleaning out high level/pro games, but at the same time you also need to either increase or maintain its power to make it effective for players that can't manage the mechanics/gameplay as well.

In the case of assassins in total I think their power level is closer to balanced when it comes to average players (assassin hyperscaling is a separate conversation), but the players who have efficient AHK settings, move well, track and reapply poisons effectively, etc. are so much more powerful it becomes very difficult to manage. When people complain about assassins being overpowered for one reason or another, they aren't talking about the average players who, like, sorta try to reapply every few swings and maybe have a passably good RA/gear set up. They are talking about the "diamond+ tier" players who are taking advantage of every single thing they can and consistently making the right decisions. I don't have too much of an issue beating average assassins (it feels "balanced" excluding disease duration), but the best ones are so much stronger they are essentially unbeatable if they don't make any uncharacteristic mistakes like purging numb.

Reducing the effectiveness of DoT stacking seems to be a way to initially approach bringing that upper tier of players more in line with the average without effecting a large portion of the assassin player base who don't consistently DoT stack. Plus, DoT procs need to be decreased in power level across the board anyways. I think there are other areas of the class that can be looked at, but it would be nice to not be able to play a visible melee and not get absolutely shredded by magic damage through your defenses every time you match up against a top tier assassin.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:24 PM by easytoremember
evert wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:53 PM
Could you give me some kind of source for "normal player" that isn't your own opinion? You might not like strafing but you don't get to decide what other people do... if you don't want to strafe that's on you. You can play an assassin without using envenom too but that doesn't make assassins weak, that just means you aren't playing it to its full potential.
the vw population across all servers and the amount of valewalkers you consider to be "skilled"
the number of rangers that do not sidestun in 1v1
the number of bards of bards that do not peel for themself
the number of infils not using sideASR in 1v1
the number of friars who do not peel for themself
the number of savages that will not sidestun in 1v1
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:37 PM by evert
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:24 PM
evert wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:53 PM
Could you give me some kind of source for "normal player" that isn't your own opinion? You might not like strafing but you don't get to decide what other people do... if you don't want to strafe that's on you. You can play an assassin without using envenom too but that doesn't make assassins weak, that just means you aren't playing it to its full potential.
the vw population across all servers and the amount of valewalkers you consider to be "skilled"
the number of rangers that do not sidestun in 1v1
the number of bards of bards that do not peel for themself
the number of infils not using sideASR in 1v1
the number of friars who do not peel for themself
the number of savages that will not sidestun in 1v1

I don’t know what the fact that people don’t know how to play has to do with whether strafing is an exploit or not. If you want to be bad on purpose that’s not anyone else’s problem, nor should classes be balanced around it.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:50 PM by Blitze
Good players, bad players, whatever. Strafe lag sidestyling in 1v1s makes the game worse in my opinion.

(In reality it’s only the VW/ranger sidestun that really annoys me.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:51 PM by boridi
Saroi -
Yes, disease was missing on the second mainhand. My mistake... Usually don't forget to repoison.

After the initial enervating/dot, I applied snare poison successfully (you can see two "moving slowly" messages in the chat). I then reapplied enervating/dot after his purge. I don't have a ton of offhand switches because it doesn't hit reliably and I don't have a billion keys on my keyboard or AHK or fast enough reflexes. Most assassin videos I see have the chat log blocked to hide all the AHK Feel free to post videos of your assassin vs reflex attack tanks!
Tue 15 Jun 2021 5:01 PM by easytoremember
evert wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:37 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:24 PM
evert wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:53 PM
Could you give me some kind of source for "normal player" that isn't your own opinion? You might not like strafing but you don't get to decide what other people do... if you don't want to strafe that's on you. You can play an assassin without using envenom too but that doesn't make assassins weak, that just means you aren't playing it to its full potential.
the vw population across all servers and the amount of valewalkers you consider to be "skilled"
the number of rangers that do not sidestun in 1v1
the number of bards of bards that do not peel for themself
the number of infils not using sideASR in 1v1
the number of friars who do not peel for themself
the number of savages that will not sidestun in 1v1

I don’t know what the fact that people don’t know how to play has to do with whether strafing is an exploit or not. If you want to be bad on purpose that’s not anyone else’s problem, nor should classes be balanced around it.
you asked for proof of normal and you got it
Tue 15 Jun 2021 5:26 PM by Babajaga
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:24 PM
evert wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:53 PM
Could you give me some kind of source for "normal player" that isn't your own opinion? You might not like strafing but you don't get to decide what other people do... if you don't want to strafe that's on you. You can play an assassin without using envenom too but that doesn't make assassins weak, that just means you aren't playing it to its full potential.
the vw population across all servers and the amount of valewalkers you consider to be "skilled"
the number of rangers that do not sidestun in 1v1
the number of bards of bards that do not peel for themself
the number of infils not using sideASR in 1v1
the number of friars who do not peel for themself
the number of savages that will not sidestun in 1v1

Lmao.
That is just what we called : playing a class at his full potential.
Theres 2 options here:
Learn to strafe to counter these.
Keep QQing.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 5:32 PM by Saroi
CowwoC wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:20 PM
Yes you do. Ok, you killed your BM friend and he tells you you are too strong. What is that gonna proof exactly? You even write it yourself, it's about using the whole set of tools, not just one. If a sin would stand in front of me as tank and kills me without anything other than spamming garotte and here and there poison - then i would agree and say, pls nerf poisons - but currently? The whine about sneaks in general really getting intense lately and that being said as someone who played visis most of the time.

My questions remain unanswered, as i thought that you could not answer to them. Maybe your post was slightly over tuned, mh?

And as i said, you can't expect that everything works out in your favor. The video shows exactly what it has to show, that without relying on applying poison perfectlys, you have simply no chance. Again, you said it yourself - you have to use all your tools. Poison is just one of them.


Have you actually read what i wrote? I doubt it. Solo casters are not running because stealther were farming them all day -lmao- where does this hoax come from? You barely see any solo, no matter which class, because you get zerged down by groups before you can even blink. As visi tank i would be glad to get jumped on by sneaks and not rolled over by 8mans.


Which proofs nothing. I killed rr11s with rr5 and were killed by rr4s. I brought Exo down once to a handfull HP, against Drunkstain i not even did much but a scratch. It's all subjective and depends on a huge amount of factors. I doubt that drunkstain actually meant that Exo needs to be nerfed because he is too strong, he was probably simply acknowledging his good play style.

It was not my friend, there is a thing called Discord were people actually write another. There is a lot of going on either in the Hib/Mid/Alb channel writing about gf's after 1v1 or directly writing. And there have been also a few pvp events were you could directly write to your enemy which happened.

If you are saying to everything that proofs nothing, why does the video which you think is in your favour proof anything? A Sin who says it is hard to apply poison but then doesn't use many poison doesn't proof anything at all. He had a direct hit after the purge happened and the chance to reapply poison immidiately. He also got a dot proc first hit after the purge, which he also said is hard to apply. He also speaks of double dot, which I may point out that he is using a 2.4 drop weapon which does not have a dot effect at all. It is also hard to apply it double dot, when you have crafted Mainhand on while that dot already procced and not switch to Dragonmight.

If we are talking about using tools, the BM is using his tools to. Speccing into passives like RA, mastery of parry etc. Why does he do that? Because Sins are a threat. With his spec he will have a hard time fighting tanks because RA isn't that good vs tanks just like mastery of parry. He also used is tool with Triple Wield blade and Flurry. I fought that BM too, and when you are also saying he didn't sweat to use IP, then I mostly think that is because he doesn't have it. RA5 already 4L0, having purge makes it 5L0 atleast, with purge 3 5L5. He also has high, very high parry. Seeing he had 50% vs me on shield style and about 43,28% vs. Bori Mainhand and 45.20% offhand. He atleast needs moparry 5+ to reach that, giving 6L0/6L5, or if moparry 6 etc. even 6L5/7L0.

Btw Borideux once uploaded a video with 4 fights he had in DF vs. a Blademaster that was 7L too. The BM lost atleast 3 fights, don't remember about the last fight. He also won against Bigfriendlydoofus the first fight, so this puts it into his favor. But I guess that also doesn't say anything, winning more than loosing vs a class that the Sins here say is pretty much unkillable.

As for the poisons. Yes, they are needed. That is the design of Sins. That is why I am against removing the mechanics as it is now. I don't know if you know this, but Grün who is a Dev here doesn't like the mechanics of weapon swapping and there have been discussions of removing the ability to swap weapons for melees in general, also for Tanks to switch 1h/2h. This is something that would be a huge nerf and have a lot more impact of that, what I have suggested with Lifebane or dot only reapplied after the duration. Or do you want it Grün's way? As Devs are already thinking about removing the mechanic to apply a lot of poison, says something that Sins are not in a weak spot.

I still don't know what you actually want with answer. But oh well.

Enervating - str changed to ws = affecting all melees. Enervating ws part was weaker in OF / beginning of NF. It got changed to reduce damage/def penetration more, got then lowered but still twice as strong as it was. Fully debuffed Tank looses 100-120 damage per hit. And finally the enervating hitting before Backstab/PA. The HP/WS got a bit lowered to a value of 100. If you look at the video, you will see, that Borideux opener reduces the HP from the BM by a total of 1102 HP, having 2525 that is about 44% HP. Practically every opener now does over 1k damage, regardless of the target. I don't know about you, but never in DAoC has a tank received over 1k damage from a Sin opener. I think you can call that overtuned.

LA - Mainhand damage had a 14.8% damage increase, offhand starter damage had it damage lowered by 10% but the scaling got upped from 0.34 to 0.52%.
CD/DW both got their offhand hit chance buffed from 0.68 to 0,86%. No cap. More Offhand hits = more damage from the offhand and faster attack speed for your next round.

Lighttanks used to have higher growth Rates or better effects on certain styles, which has been giving here to Sins. That would be fully Backchain on SB. SB also got Aurora Borealis DD proc. So 3 styles with way higher damage + a dd proc is a significant increase in DPS and was something they didn't have on live. Inf had the high bleed on Dual Shadows, which was taking away after a few month. But Both Flank and Shadow Rain(Side combo) is on the Level of Merc. Sins getting Lighttanks buffs is also something I would call overtuned.

Do I really need to go on?

If you are speaking about Solo casters. May I point out, that you barely see any solo Friars too? And this has not much to do about getting zerged. The fact is, that at the beginning Sins cried about Reflex Attack. Reflex Attack got a nerf here which made solo melee Friars pretty much extinct. And even with Nerf you still have a lot of complaints from Sins about it. So much for "Wine about Sins". I don't know how long you played here but if something is going, Sins are pretty much always the first to complain. They even make it that a whole class/spec gets destroyed which was meant to be a counterpart to them. The Enervating change happened because of one reason only. Sins complained so they got a buff.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 5:38 PM by Saroi
boridi wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 4:51 PM
Saroi -
Yes, disease was missing on the second mainhand. My mistake... Usually don't forget to repoison.

After the initial enervating/dot, I applied snare poison successfully (you can see two "moving slowly" messages in the chat). I then reapplied enervating/dot after his purge. I don't have a ton of offhand switches because it doesn't hit reliably and I don't have a billion keys on my keyboard or AHK or fast enough reflexes. Most assassin videos I see have the chat log blocked to hide all the AHK Feel free to post videos of your assassin vs reflex attack tanks!

True, I'll give you that one with the snare. But you still missed out on disease like you said and the str debuff, dunno if you use that but that is a good amount of damage reduction and def pen from melees. So you still had a few opportunities to land your poisons.

I know that a lot of Sins are using AHK, that is why I once wrote in a different thread that AHK and/or switch macro should be gone because that just raises too much. And that is not only a Sin thing, because like Jackle, a merc used it to switch between shield and offhand to queue is styles right away. Tanks also use it for easier shield/2h switch with queue up on styles. You can also see it on others who always purge and instantly use Legion + Healpot. But that is another discussion and Grün already said they pretty much are ok with this and did it with purpose.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 6:55 PM by gruenesschaf
Saroi wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 5:32 PM
As for the poisons. Yes, they are needed. That is the design of Sins. That is why I am against removing the mechanics as it is now. I don't know if you know this, but Grün who is a Dev here doesn't like the mechanics of weapon swapping and there have been discussions of removing the ability to swap weapons for melees in general, also for Tanks to switch 1h/2h. This is something that would be a huge nerf and have a lot more impact of that, what I have suggested with Lifebane or dot only reapplied after the duration. Or do you want it Grün's way? As Devs are already thinking about removing the mechanic to apply a lot of poison, says something that Sins are not in a weak spot.

That would have to go hand in hand with a different poison application mechanic, for example the live like ability / cooldown based one. That / assassins are kind of the reason that particular change isn't really pursued and hence the 2h+shield tanks are still a thing and nobody cares about stun duration in other lines when the class has access to slam as there really is just no downside / cost to swapping.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 6:58 PM by keen
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 6:55 PM
Saroi wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 5:32 PM
As for the poisons. Yes, they are needed. That is the design of Sins. That is why I am against removing the mechanics as it is now. I don't know if you know this, but Grün who is a Dev here doesn't like the mechanics of weapon swapping and there have been discussions of removing the ability to swap weapons for melees in general, also for Tanks to switch 1h/2h. This is something that would be a huge nerf and have a lot more impact of that, what I have suggested with Lifebane or dot only reapplied after the duration. Or do you want it Grün's way? As Devs are already thinking about removing the mechanic to apply a lot of poison, says something that Sins are not in a weak spot.

That would have to go hand in hand with a different poison application mechanic, for example the live like ability / cooldown based one. That / assassins are kind of the reason that particular change isn't really pursued and hence the 2h+shield tanks are still a thing and nobody cares about stun duration in other lines when the class has access to slam as there really is just no downside / cost to swapping.
swaping doesnt help you vs getting hit from the back.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 9:20 PM by bculpepper
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 6:55 PM
That would have to go hand in hand with a different poison application mechanic, for example the live like ability / cooldown based one. That / assassins are kind of the reason that particular change isn't really pursued and hence the 2h+shield tanks are still a thing and nobody cares about stun duration in other lines when the class has access to slam as there really is just no downside / cost to swapping.

That would make things interesting. If there was a cooldown then if you purge right away to rid the poisons you are open to a stun. If you choose to keep the poisons then you can purge the poison/stun together if it comes - but the cooldown might be up and you get reapplied.

Not so great for my SB - but more fun for my Skald
Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:36 AM by Irkeno
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.

I forgot that in Boxing matches and MMA fights the fighters just faced each other head on and never used movement to their advantage to get a better angle for a punch.

Oh wait.

Movement is such a core part of the game, if you're not using it you're misunderstanding the game.

Oh and the OP (albeit as i understand it mostly retired top assassin) and 2 other pretty top tier assassins are basically in agreement on this whole DOT being overtuned thing.

They're asking for a nerf to toons they play themselves. That should say enough for you.
Wed 16 Jun 2021 1:06 AM by easytoremember
Irkeno wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:36 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
I forgot that in Boxing matches and MMA fights the fighters just faced each other head on and never used movement to their advantage to get a better angle for a punch.

Oh wait.

Movement is such a core part of the game, if you're not using it you're misunderstanding the game.
The only difference between a mob and a player is lag, and you cannot strafe against a mob (except unmoving like a dummy or a door). Strafe is objectively an exploit.

The usage of strafe skews balance because a regular player playing a class balanced with strafe usage in mind is gimp and a strafe user making use of strafe where the balance is centered upon no strafe in mind is too strong.
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:02 AM by Irkeno
easytoremember wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 1:06 AM
Irkeno wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:36 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
I forgot that in Boxing matches and MMA fights the fighters just faced each other head on and never used movement to their advantage to get a better angle for a punch.

Oh wait.

Movement is such a core part of the game, if you're not using it you're misunderstanding the game.
The only difference between a mob and a player is lag, and you cannot strafe against a mob (except unmoving like a dummy or a door). Strafe is objectively an exploit.

The usage of strafe skews balance because a regular player playing a class balanced with strafe usage in mind is gimp and a strafe user making use of strafe where the balance is centered upon no strafe in mind is too strong.

Youre confusing objective and subjective.

Objective would say Broadsword, Mythic and to a lesser extent the devs here have all said movement to land positionals is part of the game, even having it called a ‘feature’.

Subjective would say strafe is an exploit because I cannot do it vs mobs too.

1st based on fact, 2nd on personal opinion.

Gruenes has now also made changes to make this harder. Which is fine. But if they were against it entirely you’d have to imagine they’d make it much much harder to do. But as he’s obviously written that he believes its a core ppart of the skill of the game and they have no intention of doing so, I wouldn’t hold your breath if i were you.
Wed 16 Jun 2021 4:08 AM by easytoremember
Irkeno wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:02 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 1:06 AM
Irkeno wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:36 AM
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM
keen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:25 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:11 PM
Yeah try to beat drunkstain or Eullogie 1vs1.
Any heavy tank with high MoParry and MoB is impossible to beat.
Learn to strafe. And learning is a huge word for such a simple task, especially as an assassin... In daoc you can circumvent melee defense completely, assassins are even the easiest class to do so.
Now without exploiting?
I don't care that strafe is permitted, you shouldn't be landing positionals other than front if your target isn't fleeing or ignoring you, and being able to circumvent their defenses entirely is more so retarded.
I forgot that in Boxing matches and MMA fights the fighters just faced each other head on and never used movement to their advantage to get a better angle for a punch.

Oh wait.

Movement is such a core part of the game, if you're not using it you're misunderstanding the game.
The only difference between a mob and a player is lag, and you cannot strafe against a mob (except unmoving like a dummy or a door). Strafe is objectively an exploit.

The usage of strafe skews balance because a regular player playing a class balanced with strafe usage in mind is gimp and a strafe user making use of strafe where the balance is centered upon no strafe in mind is too strong.

Youre confusing objective and subjective.

Objective would say Broadsword, Mythic and to a lesser extent the devs here have all said movement to land positionals is part of the game, even having it called a ‘feature’.

Subjective would say strafe is an exploit because I cannot do it vs mobs too.

1st based on fact, 2nd on personal opinion.

Gruenes has now also made changes to make this harder. Which is fine. But if they were against it entirely you’d have to imagine they’d make it much much harder to do. But as he’s obviously written that he believes its a core ppart of the skill of the game and they have no intention of doing so, I wouldn’t hold your breath if i were you.
Yes, objectively, factually, matter of factly, it is an exploit made possible by lag. Under perfect circumstances (zero latency) it does not occur. Zero latency is only available by entities the server is generating behavior for so a mob is able to flawlessly remain faced towards its target. A player using face or stick is unable to do that because of lag. Strafe is an exploitation of that lag to land a positional where it would otherwise fail. Said exploitation is allowed and does not break the rules. Being legal does not change what it is. I acknowledge you need skill to pull it off efficiently and I choose not to use or practice it. Simply I don't like it existing and it is not my idea of DAoC nor the allure of the game, and aesthetically it is out of place.

I'm not saying or trying to get rid of it and am only argueing its nature & prevalence because the high parry/block of tanks was being ignored via strafe where said tank is normally a pretty stout wall vs an assassin.
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:02 PM by gruenesschaf
easytoremember wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 4:08 AM
Zero latency is only available by entities the server is generating behavior for so a mob is able to flawlessly remain faced towards its target.

Not even the mobs could do it, they actually cheat: when a mob has you in its target you cannot land a positional on it.
Thu 17 Jun 2021 12:46 AM by Irkeno
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:02 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 4:08 AM
Zero latency is only available by entities the server is generating behavior for so a mob is able to flawlessly remain faced towards its target.

Not even the mobs could do it, they actually cheat: when a mob has you in its target you cannot land a positional on it.


easytoremember wrote: Yes, objectively, factually, matter of factly

Yes, objectively, factually, matter of factly you just got burned by a GM. Tried tellin u

Anyway, still triple dot way too overtuned atm.

Basically a 200-250dmg proc (1 proc) vs every other proc being 95dmg.

That in synergy with assasins debuffs disease and Viper Dot (triple dot stack) makes this over the top atm.
Thu 17 Jun 2021 7:48 AM by keen
Everyone can use dot procs. That's not the issue. Issue is viper scaling and poisons debuff not scaling like champ but full value Vs buff pots. On live you have buff bots with +155stats on phoenix +50 stats.
Thu 17 Jun 2021 8:26 AM by Irkeno
keen wrote:
Thu 17 Jun 2021 7:48 AM
Everyone can use dot procs. That's not the issue. Issue is viper scaling and poisons debuff not scaling like champ but full value Vs buff pots. On live you have buff bots with +155stats on phoenix +50 stats.

Then why unless the sin triple dots do good tanks have little issue winning when played right.

Also wscon is already nerfed compared to live
Thu 17 Jun 2021 8:47 AM by keen
Irkeno wrote:
Thu 17 Jun 2021 8:26 AM
keen wrote:
Thu 17 Jun 2021 7:48 AM
Everyone can use dot procs. That's not the issue. Issue is viper scaling and poisons debuff not scaling like champ but full value Vs buff pots. On live you have buff bots with +155stats on phoenix +50 stats.

Then why unless the sin triple dots do good tanks have little issue winning when played right.

Also wscon is already nerfed compared to live
its much better compared to live as i wrote above on live you have +155stats here you have +50? thats why champ debuffs got adjusted vs buff pots.
Thu 17 Jun 2021 10:17 AM by Turano
Irkeno wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:02 AM
Objective would say Broadsword, Mythic and to a lesser extent the devs here have all said movement to land positionals is part of the game, even having it called a ‘feature’.

Subjective would say strafe is an exploit because I cannot do it vs mobs too.

1st based on fact, 2nd on personal opinion.

Gruenes has now also made changes to make this harder. Which is fine. But if they were against it entirely you’d have to imagine they’d make it much much harder to do. But as he’s obviously written that he believes its a core ppart of the skill of the game and they have no intention of doing so, I wouldn’t hold your breath if i were you.
Well it's called a "feature" because it is impossible to fix with this game engine so they just allow it
Thu 17 Jun 2021 12:32 PM by Bradekes
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:02 PM
when a mob has you in its target you cannot land a positional on it.

So is there a problem making it so that players have the same built-in mechanic with /stick and /face exception being if the player is CC'ed?
Thu 17 Jun 2021 1:12 PM by gruenesschaf
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 17 Jun 2021 12:32 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:02 PM
when a mob has you in its target you cannot land a positional on it.

So is there a problem making it so that players have the same built-in mechanic with /stick and /face exception being if the player is CC'ed?

The client doesn't send stick or face information to the server aka the server doesn't know that you are sticking to or facing a target.
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:13 AM by boridi
Kite Club Krrankii gets kited! Nerf assassins! Buff mercs!

https://streamable.com/l1nw8g

Roast me! Hitting the wrong buttons due to style changes
Mon 21 Jun 2021 10:11 PM by keen
boridi wrote:
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:13 AM
Kite Club Krrankii gets kited! Nerf assassins! Buff mercs!

https://streamable.com/l1nw8g

Roast me! Hitting the wrong buttons due to style changes
Impressive, you want credits for that?...
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