2H Melee Damage Increase

Hi/Moin,

since PHX has an higher inherent AF (45) and SpecAF Buffs are within the combined Pots, without increased Stats like live at ToA (101) or current (126) State, the melee Damage overall went quite low. I doubt someone will or wants to make it happen that the damage will rise overall, but i think an increase of the 2H Modifier (for melees, not archers) would be justified.

Currently the 2H modifier is 1.10 + 0.005 * Spec, what i could imagine right now would be either:
1.20 + 0.005 * Spec or
1.10 + 0.006 * Spec

Either or would result in a slight effective damage increase in the range of roughly 4-8%

i.e. just the Base Damage (unstyled) for both all three variants with a 5.5 Weapon and 50 and 65 combined Spec:
50 Spec:
>>> 5.5 * 16.5 * (1 + (5.5 - 2) * 0.03) * (1.10 + 0.005 * 50) * 2
270.752625
>>> 5.5 * 16.5 * (1 + (5.5 - 2) * 0.03) * (1.20 + 0.005 * 50) * 2
290.808375
>>> 5.5 * 16.5 * (1 + (5.5 - 2) * 0.03) * (1.10 + 0.006 * 50) * 2
280.7805

65 Spec:
>>> 5.5 * 16.5 * (1 + (5.5 - 2) * 0.03) * (1.10 + 0.005 * 65) * 2
285.7944375
>>> 5.5 * 16.5 * (1 + (5.5 - 2) * 0.03) * (1.20 + 0.005 * 65) * 2
305.8501875
>>> 5.5 * 16.5 * (1 + (5.5 - 2) * 0.03) * (1.10 + 0.006 * 65) * 2
298.83067500000004

I don't think this would change a ton, but since the multiplier effect hit big numbers as in 2H heavier than lower damage which had only fairly low absolut number loss. As for the same reason i would not suggest a higher change in the first place, even if i think that even 1.25 or 0.0065 would be also reasonable options actually.

I've minimal concerns about classes like Skalds, Champs, Friars or whatever else i forgot there which is present in Solo, but i think this could help a bit to create some kind (small) of Gap again between 1H/2H.
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 10 Apr 2021 5:22 PM
Aside from watching groups fail in the pve instances, a favorite past time of many staff members is to delight in the pain and suffering of playes caused by minor annoyances like this.

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

Yea, but 2hnd is in a good place because of the vigorous weaponswitching every hit... basically u get 2hnd dmg with shield defence...
Which is a tad stupid when you think about it...
So I wouldn’t buff 2hnd without nerfing the inane weaponswitching
((maybe each time you change weapon you get a stacking fumble debuff on you, the debuff lasts ~8s and starts at 0%... and goes up in 5% with weapon swap... and if you change every 2s for the whole 30s fight you would be running with a 3stacks @ a 15% fumble chance.))

This would help remove/fix the crazy millions of poisoned weapons in inventories of assassins... Then let assassins poison their equipped weapons in combat or some such sensible fix.

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

skipari wrote:
Mon 3 May 2021 1:14 PM
since PHX has an higher inherent AF (45) and SpecAF Buffs are within the combined Pots, without increased Stats like live at ToA (101) or current (126) State, the melee Damage overall went quite low.

That is a somewhat faulty premise.

The inherent AF is higher compared to 1.65, if you assume uthgard nailed it, but lower compared to live. Our formula results are comparable with uthgard when we use 40 inherent AF, with 50 inherent AF our formula results match values observed on Pendragon right now.
Spec AF has always been widely used, certainly by solos but also in 8v8, either as a hassle via alchemy charges on level 5 mp cloth hands/feet or via a buff bot.
We don't have 101 stats but we also don't have toa extra af, this should mostly cancel itself out.

And even if you ignore that and accept your premise as stated, I don't see how you get to the conclusion that the 2h bonus should be raised instead of general melee damage.

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 May 2021 4:45 PM
skipari wrote:
Mon 3 May 2021 1:14 PM
since PHX has an higher inherent AF (45) and SpecAF Buffs are within the combined Pots, without increased Stats like live at ToA (101) or current (126) State, the melee Damage overall went quite low.

That is a somewhat faulty premise.

The inherent AF is higher compared to 1.65, if you assume uthgard nailed it, but lower compared to live. Our formula results are comparable with uthgard when we use 40 inherent AF, with 50 inherent AF our formula results match values observed on Pendragon right now.
Spec AF has always been widely used, certainly by solos but also in 8v8, either as a hassle via alchemy charges on level 5 mp cloth hands/feet or via a buff bot.
We don't have 101 stats but we also don't have toa extra af, this should mostly cancel itself out.

And even if you ignore that and accept your premise as stated, I don't see how you get to the conclusion that the 2h bonus should be raised instead of general melee damage.

I don't ignore it, or at least i try to not ignore it with my limited knowledge, but for example the ToA AF Bonus on the Armor is just effective 8 - 10 AF per piece (depending if it count as a Base or SpecAF which i'm not 100% sure). Also various Expansions made different tools widely available like AF Debuff weapons, Masterlevel and other which increased the Melee Damage on live to a point which made an inherent AF change necessary to the current 50 there.

IIRC the goal for melees past at that time was to stay within Damagecap and only phase out of it rarely. Here something like a 2.4/2.6 dmgmod is more or less the maximum possible against an temped/buffed Caster.

I don't mind the 45 here since i can somewhat understand the TTK reasons, nobody likes to get purged within 3 seconds by 2 offtanks, but the reason for the 2H Suggestion is that, while the overall damage reduction is even on all layers, those 2H hits on a absolute value decreased heavier and there is barely a reason to spec into it if other options are available. If for whatever reason the melee damage would get increased overall, and i think something like 30/35 would already be sufficient for the TTK purpose, i wouldn't think an extra custom 2H Modifier is necessary.
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 10 Apr 2021 5:22 PM
Aside from watching groups fail in the pve instances, a favorite past time of many staff members is to delight in the pain and suffering of playes caused by minor annoyances like this.

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

On uthgard there is bonus DMG if you use slower weapons. The source they are using for this is no longer available.
SLow Weapon bonus = 1 + ( (spd - 2) x 0.03)
It's used for DMG and cap DMG calculation.

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

keen wrote:
Tue 4 May 2021 11:44 AM
On uthgard there is bonus DMG if you use slower weapons. The source they are using for this is no longer available.
SLow Weapon bonus = 1 + ( (spd - 2) x 0.03)
It's used for DMG and cap DMG calculation.

This is just the base damage calculation, i.e.
>>> 16.5 * 5.5 * (1 + (5.5 - 2) * 0.03)
100.27875

phx just uses a different writing of it, see also https://playphoenix.online/wiki/mechanics/29344-physical-damage (Effective Weapon Damage):
>>> 16.5 * 5.5 * 10 * (0.94 + 5.5 * 0.03) / 10
100.27875

--

twohand/slowweapon bonus is just the "1.10 + 0.005 * spec" one, here, on uthgard and live
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 10 Apr 2021 5:22 PM
Aside from watching groups fail in the pve instances, a favorite past time of many staff members is to delight in the pain and suffering of playes caused by minor annoyances like this.

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

2h users but not archers? you mean hunters should not benefit? i mean the average hunter hits for 140-220, the average 2h user hits for 300+ ... clearly 2h needs a bump lol
Horg solo Hunter Einherjar Lone Enforcer ~42,8% solo kills
Eik solo Shadowblade Flammen Fru ~50% solo kills

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 May 2021 4:45 PM
skipari wrote:
Mon 3 May 2021 1:14 PM
since PHX has an higher inherent AF (45) and SpecAF Buffs are within the combined Pots, without increased Stats like live at ToA (101) or current (126) State, the melee Damage overall went quite low.

That is a somewhat faulty premise.

The inherent AF is higher compared to 1.65, if you assume uthgard nailed it, but lower compared to live. Our formula results are comparable with uthgard when we use 40 inherent AF, with 50 inherent AF our formula results match values observed on Pendragon right now.
Spec AF has always been widely used, certainly by solos but also in 8v8, either as a hassle via alchemy charges on level 5 mp cloth hands/feet or via a buff bot.
We don't have 101 stats but we also don't have toa extra af, this should mostly cancel itself out.

And even if you ignore that and accept your premise as stated, I don't see how you get to the conclusion that the 2h bonus should be raised instead of general melee damage.

I do not care about the 2hander damage, just give slower thrust 2handers for albion and more than 2 reskins to it!!
Brainburp (former brainfart) - Spiritmaster
Borkasaurus - Minstrel
Borkadin - Paladin

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

inoeth wrote:
Tue 4 May 2021 5:19 PM
2h users but not archers? you mean hunters should not benefit? i mean the average hunter hits for 140-220, the average 2h user hits for 300+ ... clearly 2h needs a bump lol
No.
With "Archers" he means the Bow(s), that use the 2H modifier.
His proposal would be for all Melee (2H), including the Hunter Spear.

Re: 2H Melee Damage Increase

DJ2000 wrote:
Tue 4 May 2021 5:35 PM
inoeth wrote:
Tue 4 May 2021 5:19 PM
2h users but not archers? you mean hunters should not benefit? i mean the average hunter hits for 140-220, the average 2h user hits for 300+ ... clearly 2h needs a bump lol
No.
With "Archers" he means the Bow(s), that use the 2H modifier.
His proposal would be for all Melee (2H), including the Hunter Spear.

Correct, archer, as in bows, already got a similar buff in a different part of the equation as far as i know, so if this would ever happen archer had another buff from it. I wouldn't mind replacing the current Archer only with a generic one.
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 10 Apr 2021 5:22 PM
Aside from watching groups fail in the pve instances, a favorite past time of many staff members is to delight in the pain and suffering of playes caused by minor annoyances like this.