Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

Personal opinion:
Preventing weapon swap entirely is not the way to go, however, there should be some cost to it. Such a change would however not represent an intended balance change but a fix to a flawed game mechanic with balance implications that may or may not have to be addressed.

The simplest and to me most sane way would be to add the base weapon delay of the new weapon to your current swing timer (or starting it) on weapon swap. This would make applying multiple poisons a tradeoff and not a clearly superior thing and it would remove the currently perfectly valid 2h + shield swap abuse: hit them with your 2h, swap to shield while in swing delay to take advantage of your shield spec without any downside, swap to 2h again once out of swing delay and repeat, effectively making you wield 2h + shield.

A different poison mechanic, namely like live does it these days, would be nice and also horrible, it would be nice for assassin players as it is primarily a qol but it would also be horrible as it dramatically lowers the barrier of entry making assassins even more prevalent. At the same time giving out these skills at specific evenom specs while ignoring + from items or rr, as it would be actual skills granted at different spec levels, would have huge spec implications and remove a major benefit assassins gain from higher rr.

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

In my opinion the biggest problem is with /switch macro and AHK and not the swap itself.

Sins: You used to have to drag your weapons manually. This meant to have inventory open and you had to pay more attention. It is also very hard or near impossible to switch Main + Offhand before your next attack round is ready. And in some cases you either fucked up and got the wrong weapon or you hit the wrong style.

Now everyone has switch macro to get instant 2 new weapons. Here and there you also have Sins tying it with AHK together for styles. So 2 new weapons + 5-6 style queue up (Evade combo and Achiles/Garotte as anytimer). Basically like bots.

Merc/BM: Almost the same between offhand and shield. Easy switch with macro and in some cases also AHK to switch to offhand and queueing up your styles:

2h/Shield: I personally think in general this is fine since this is a tank thing and in some other games you have it too. But here is also were AHK helps a lot when going 2h to automatically queue up styles.

Without all that, the manually switching would be a lot harder, making you either screw up the swap, screw up your styles or have you lose a few seconds. It is probably too late remove AHK or it will not be intended. But atleast the /switch command should be removed.
Yarna is not nice

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

Removing ahk or switch would just make it more awkward to use. The mechanic existing at all is the design flaw / issue.

Even without macroing it was used and would be used, it would just be like the minstrel before the charm change: utterly stupid to play because you're not really playing the character but fighting the archaic daoc interface. The required user input should never ever have any weight on balance considerations, ideally the only thing that should matter are the possible actions to take and then on the player end the decision which action to take and when to take it, but not doing any weird contortions or incantations to actually do them, like in combat inventory management. In a VR game you obviously could argue in favor of actual gestures as input but this is a tab target mmo.

If it's intended to poison swap a bazillion times in a fight it should be easy to do and just an expected mechanic, if it's not intended it should not be possible in the first place.

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 1 May 2021 2:26 PM
The simplest and to me most sane way would be to add the base weapon delay of the new weapon to your current swing timer (or starting it) on weapon swap. This would make applying multiple poisons a tradeoff and not a clearly superior thing and it would remove the currently perfectly valid 2h + shield swap abuse: hit them with your 2h, swap to shield while in swing delay to take advantage of your shield spec without any downside, swap to 2h again once out of swing delay and repeat, effectively making you wield 2h + shield.

Sounds great! Let's do it!

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

In my opinion the flaw/issue is the combination of the allowance of AHK combined with your introduced /switch macro like Saroi said (which was never part of the official game). The normal 1h/2h switch was part of the game since Beta so I wouldn't consider it a flaw/issue but more like working as intended.

Don't get me wrong...I also profited from the /switch macro on many classes but in combination with AHK usage it really drops the needed skill to play certain classes (such as assassins or shield classes). I partially agree that the focus regarding player skill should lie in enemy knowledge, knowledge of your own class and making the right strategic decisions at the right time but some more effort to play a certain class (like an assassin) at the absolut maximum should still be possible.

I understand though that certain classes would get out of control due to massive button pressing if you would forbid AHK usage (such as skalds or paladins) or just be less effective. So in this case there should be some other solution for them.

Offtopic: Regarding enemy knowledge I don't know if this "Scout Addon" (which checks the Phoenix Herald for class, RR etc.) is still in use by a part of the playerbase and if it's allowed or not. I think Uthred said ones that it is forbidden but I'm not 100% sure about it. In my eyes such tools should be bannable since it is doing the contrary to what you say DAoC skill should be about.
Tamy // Yarna

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

Tamy wrote:
Sat 1 May 2021 5:15 PM
some more effort to play a certain class (like an assassin) at the absolut maximum should still be possible.

That's why strafing to get positionals is still a thing here and has not been removed. In tab target mmos the strategical / tactical elements (cooldown management, positioning, target choice etc.) are what matter and aside from that individual, actual "gameplay skill" should start and end with movement, not who can pull up the most ingame windows and click things the fastest.

I still entirely reject the idea of clunky and weird user input being something that should be in any way expected or even rewarded, that is the sole reason why switch exists. Switch existing and not having any downside to weapon swapping is precisely because we accepted these ancient game mechanics as part of the game and hence made them more accessible. Same for the absolutely braindead idea of instant chant swapping on pala and skald, absolutely braindead and only tolerable with macros.

Ideally, there would be game design elements in place that prevent macros from being effective, modern games usually achieve this by reactive elements but daoc is certainly not a modern game.

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 1 May 2021 2:26 PM
A different poison mechanic, namely like live does it these days, would be nice and also horrible, it would be nice for assassin players as it is primarily a qol but it would also be horrible as it dramatically lowers the barrier of entry making assassins even more prevalent. At the same time giving out these skills at specific evenom specs while ignoring + from items or rr, as it would be actual skills granted at different spec levels, would have huge spec implications and remove a major benefit assassins gain from higher rr.

Agree 100% with your points in this thread, but I seriously doubt making QoL changes could do much to further saturate the assassin population in a meaningful way. On any given play session 75-100% of my 1v1s as a visible are assassins. If QoL changes means that some amount of those are lower quality players enticed by ease of access changes I think that is a good thing on the whole, and they will inevitably go back to coast guarding, zerging, or 8v8ing when they realize they can't hack it 1v1 against the hordes of RR10+ sneaks.

The prevalence of assassins on Phoenix is purely due to stealth and their power level. If they weren't as over-tuned, more people would be taking the trade off of stealth for 1v1 combat prowess, and we'd see solo class populations fall more in line with what it was on live classic servers.

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

Juggling weapons around while you're in combat is the only scenario where fumble has ever made sense to me.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 1 May 2021 2:26 PM
giving out these skills at specific evenom specs while ignoring + from items or rr, as it would be actual skills granted at different spec levels, would have huge spec implications and remove a major benefit assassins gain from higher rr.
I was thinking of it in the manner of stealth vs spec stealth- safe fall and friends. A means of avoiding "forcing" the player to not choose to free up points from stealth as his RR permits is by having the range associated with the most common RR skill bonuses void of hard spec perks.

As an example the initial spec is usually 37+11
At 4L 36+14
6L 34+16
11L 29+21

If good abilities were placed at 25 34 40, it would seem mandatory for 34 to be minimum spec- thus RR7 and beyond cannot choose to free up points without gimping themselves hard. On the other hand, even having them placed outside of that range (ie 28 to 38) it would be necessary for upper bound to be marginal gain lest the minimum spec shoot up instead of down

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 1 May 2021 5:43 PM
That's why strafing to get positionals is still a thing here and has not been removed. In tab target mmos the strategical / tactical elements (cooldown management, positioning, target choice etc.) are what matter and aside from that individual, actual "gameplay skill" should start and end with movement, not who can pull up the most ingame windows and click things the fastest.
I still entirely reject the idea of clunky and weird user input being something that should be in any way expected or even rewarded, that is the sole reason why switch exists.
Unclear if i want to fully agree on that, but it doesn't matter anyway.
To me, Phoenix shall be a place where everything about DaoC that was annoying, bad, clunky or unfun, by design/implementation/etc., is trimmed out to make the good parts of it shine even more.
The problem with this lies where to draw a line in certain aspects. No matter what you do, or try to be as neutral and objective as possible, you cannot please everyone. Ever.
Accepting that may lessen the grief to some decisions been made, but doesn't make it a better experience for people that simply fundamentally disagree with certain viewpoints and aspects in the current Game.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 1 May 2021 5:43 PM
Switch existing and not having any downside to weapon swapping is precisely because we accepted these ancient game mechanics as part of the game and hence made them more accessible. Same for the absolutely braindead idea of instant chant swapping on pala and skald, absolutely braindead and only tolerable with macros.
For the Love of god, then why are they still a thing? Why do they even exist as they are now?
Why not simply combine these "absolutely braindead" chants into one?
Why not implement a macro similar to /switch? Call it /chant, where you can load your chants into, which you then activate by pressing the macro once.
Why this roundabout way of doing things with the pretense of upholding "skill", "zeitgeist" or "accessibility"?

Re: No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

Magesty wrote:
Sat 1 May 2021 6:28 PM
On any given play session 75-100% of my 1v1s as a visible are assassins.

Consider the survival rate against small / 8 / zerg as a solo. That and the archers being much harder to play effectively against assassins obviously gives assassins a very high survivability rate compared to all other classes when solo. It's not that assassins have such a high survivability because the switch mechanic is easy but because they are the least likely to just get killed by every passerby there is.
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