Radical changes to get back to basics...

Started 14 Apr 2021
by Aybabtu
in Suggestions
Hi,

So as many others I got quite frustrated with the recently announced changes / implementation but instead of sitting quietly I decided to participate instead to right this train and here are a few suggestions I have had which I believe would have a positive impact on balance and overall enjoyment.

I'll start with the most controversial since I also believe it will have the biggest impact and I will provide my reasoning along with each suggestion.

1) Lose the buffpots! Either entirely or make them not usable in PvP or even reduce them to at least half of current value.
- My reason her is this; By giving everyone access to a full set of powerful buffs you are effectively nerfing classes that relies on selfbuffs from speclines. Additionally and this goes hand in hand with another change I'm proposing you effectively makes certain items obsolete - why go for a specific item with a buff charge if you can get a almost identically buff from pots or go for a weapon with haste proc since all you will be gaining is a minor amount of haste as you already get 14% from buffpots - in other words, get rid of them and let people who want this edge go for the items that originally had buff charges on them instead of making them irrelevant.

2) Reverse all self-made class-changes.
- This is supposed to be a [Removed due to small-mindedness] DAoC server, so there is absolutely no reason to go play "god" and change classes as you see fit - I can commit to class changes later created by the developers but some of these, as combined debuffs, power procs and shuffling of baseline debuffs are ridiculous and have no merit, in fact it makes certain specs and classes less relevant which is hardly balancing.

3) Unfortunately we are stuck with suck New Frontiers RA's! I would suggest to significantly increase timers on RA's back to their 30min originals.
- Classic DAoC was about timing and choosing when to pop a realm ability to win a fight - now a days they are just about always up and available. Everything is on a 15min or 10min timer where as Stag for Heroes is still on a 30min timer. Should increase timer on instant heals as well since they are only on a 5min!! timer.
For Purge specifically I would suggest this: Purge1 30min timer 5sec delay for 10 points, Purge2 25min timer with no delay for 20 Points and Purge3 15min timer with no delay for 30 Points.

Lastly,

4) If you do want to spice things up a bit here's a proposal which will make this DAoC experience much better if you ask me. Make low level ToA bonuses craftable in SC. 2% Cast Speed, Cast Range, Spell Dmg, Melee Swing Speed, Melee Dmg or Melee Style dmg hard capped at 10% and 4% Heal efficiency or Buff efficiency gems hard capped at 20%.
- Today everyone runs around with perfect templates because RoG's are so powerful and there is little reason to compromise template items since buffs and effects comes in Pot form these days (yes this is linked to the buff pot change). People are running around in weaponless assassin templates but by making these gems people will have to sacrifice something either in stats, skills or resist to get that extra edge. Back in real classic DAoC you made these sacrifices and either won big for the decision against some classes or lost big to others.

I know these are quite some changes and maybe nothing or just some makes its way into the game but nonetheless I strongly believe these changes will make RvR more fun and PvE more relevant.

Thanks for reading
Wed 14 Apr 2021 1:46 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Aybabtu wrote:
Wed 14 Apr 2021 10:38 AM
This is supposed to be a classic DAoC server

No, it isn't, and never was. The sooner you realize that, the saner you will be. Although, if you haven't figured it out in three years you probably never will.
Wed 14 Apr 2021 6:28 PM by Aybabtu
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Wed 14 Apr 2021 1:46 PM
Aybabtu wrote:
Wed 14 Apr 2021 10:38 AM
This is supposed to be a classic DAoC server

No, it isn't, and never was. The sooner you realize that, the saner you will be. Although, if you haven't figured it out in three years you probably never will.

Nice and constructive.... I like it....

Although they do not mention "Classic" specifically in their description besides spawn points the server did start out with Classic frontiers, classic RA's and would you have it, no customized speclines, and yes there is SI and Housing on Phoenix but even that is considered part of the "Classic package" to many and what this server to me offered the classic experience.

So wheather the call it or not, i and a lot of other people will still consider this a "classic server" - the sooner you realize that, the saner you will be.

But then again, doubt you will ever figure that out considering the lack of contructive comments (yes above was sarcasm) - I'd rather like it if you would actually comment on the content of my post instead of acting like a little duechebag and nitpicking... But then again, after all these years playing the game i kind of get the feeling that you were one of the little kids that used to troll FreddysHouse back in the day....

Come back when you are in a better mood kiddo and lets discuss the actual content i posted....
Wed 14 Apr 2021 6:38 PM by Enyore
Dude, if you want it completely classic go play Uthgard with the 35 other likeminded players there.

It is the 37th post of this kind on the forum, if you want constructive feedback you should go read the other 36.

Geez this shit again and again
Wed 14 Apr 2021 9:16 PM by DJ2000
gruenesschaf wrote: From the get go we said we're based on 1.65 with changes from there. In case it's unclear what that means: You start with 1.65 and then make changes, usually those changes take at the very least inspiration from later patch levels if not outright using something from later patch levels, sometimes it means entirely custom things.
This here would be a mix: The inspiration being some new ability at RR5 as well as the concept of those abilities with most even being the actual live versions.
Examples for custom things would be craftqueue, increasing regeneration rate the longer you sit, ds/hoh, auto tasks.

Just leaving it here.
Thu 15 Apr 2021 6:14 AM by Olk
Since you failed to see the constructive side of his comment, allow me to answer a bit more friendly than a daoc forum usually is.

There is a server that does radical classic and it is Uthgard. I played years on Uth1 and maybe a week on Uth2 and it showed why your dream of classic does not work. There is a group of people that enjoys the grind and ride the nostalgia, but you need to understand that those are a very small minority. Uthgard failed because classic settings did NOT age well at all.

Most people moved on from daoc a long time ago and when you play other games (mobas, shooter, even most RPGs) you can't play classic. The imbalance (which only can be fixed by custom changes) and the outdated style doesn't fit modern needs. Half an hour of cooldowns in a world where Ultimate Abilities with 100 seconds are considered ages long do not work.

So in conclusion: There are MANY reasons why classic daoc does not work on a hard line anymore. And this server never wanted to be one in the first place. I can understand that you WANT the classic, but there is a classic freeshard and it's not phoenix.

TL;DR: Phoenix is modern but not classic. The current way is good.

PS: We need more RVR balance thou
Thu 15 Apr 2021 6:23 AM by Aybabtu
Enyore wrote:
Wed 14 Apr 2021 6:38 PM
Dude, if you want it completely classic go play Uthgard with the 35 other likeminded players there.

It is the 37th post of this kind on the forum, if you want constructive feedback you should go read the other 36.

Geez this shit again and again

Jero, dude, honestly why do you even bother to commenting here.

I have made 4 suggestions on what I would think would improve quality of life on this server - If you disapprove then either voice your opinion against them and lets have a discussion, or scuttle along.

Who knew the word "classic" would trigger people and don't worry I'll edit out the word out then everyone's brain won't the stuck on that.
Thu 15 Apr 2021 6:54 AM by Saroi
1, I am a bit confused here. You are saying pots is a nerf to selfbuff classes but at the same time you want buff charges to be more used.

Charge buffs actually have a value of 75. This was the same on Phoenix. Because of that, everyone used those charges. Str/Con,dex/quick, af and for casters also brain with 75. Charges were better than self buffs so those classes used them too. Because this was a disadvantage for selfbuff classes, Staff decided to reduce the value of charges to the same as pot with value of 50.

On the same time, self buff classes all got their values increased to have a value of 75 when the self buff is lv 50.

To summarize = none buff classes lesser buffs, self buff mostly higher buffs. In your suggest to make charges being used it would mostly mean make them back to 75 and that would mean mostly a buff for none buff classes. Every melee will have 25 more quick.

4, Well you removed your statemant about classic, but it is still weird that you want ToA stats here. Your argument about choosing either cap stat or ToA bonus is false. With Gemcrafting you can higher up gems so high, you don't even need sc to have stats/resist capped or maybe just with 1-2 pieces. Everyone who is rich can get all capped and have all of your suggested ToA bonuses, making the gap even bigger and basically it is a pay(in game money) to win. The reason overall of easier Temps is the ability to not have to farm for weeks to be able to go to RvR.

The main focus is RvR and Staff made enough QoL changes like leveling, Rogs, Feathers to buy all the Items to reach that as fast as possible.
Thu 15 Apr 2021 7:48 AM by byron
I only partially agree on point 1 : while pots has more or less the same effect on 1vs1 and smallmen, they unbalance the game in 8vs8, especially the endu pots (have you ever seen a Paladin in an Alb group ? Maybe once in a month...). So an alb group can have another DPS in the group without give up infinite kiting thanks to the end pots.
I have already wrote that but I haven't received any feedback about this big advantage.
Thu 15 Apr 2021 8:21 AM by Aybabtu
Hi Saroi,

Appreciate your reply.

Let me just clarify something, the original statement from my side was "this is supposed to be a classic daoc server" and I am quite possible very missguided here - I have never said I only wanted a classic server - there is a huge difference.

With that out of the way - If I remember correctly, you can not be able to buff yourself fully with Charge items like a buff pot does today - and buy fully we are talking bases, specs and haste. Yes you could get a Dex/Quick, Acuity or Str/Con value 75 and run with that and even Spec AF from epic armor which shared cooldown but that was the extend (might be some others I have forgotten I'm sure someone will point that out in due time). But importantly, no bases and no haste.

I don't mind people popping these charge items to get the advantage they offer, I'm all for that - what I suggest is making it a little bit harder to obtain this edge as well as making some items more relevant because they have these charges or procs for that matter.

Right now buff-pots is a great convenience for everyone but then again, but if everyone runs around with buffs pots then the effect is nullified, except for self buffs classes. I don't mind the charges but at least people would have to work a little bit more for them - otherwise, they could just as well add a buff NCP next to the hastener.

My suggestion around toa bonuses is meant to spice it up and make it less likely to create the perfect template and cap everything weaponless. Force people to sacrifice a resist or two which might bite them in the ass a few times to gain some more melee or casting speed etc.
Thu 15 Apr 2021 10:16 AM by Irkeno
1) Swinging un styled is not fun. This would be common w/o endu pots and detract from gameplay

2) The power gap between groups and solos/small or certain group comps Without buff pots would be even bigger. Just take a look at the complaints about premades In the level playing field event Essentially groups with buffs speed and endu...The people who got steamrolled by them did a fair amount of complaining basically for this exact reason even with 10-20 unbuffed folk, 5 buffed folk can quite merrily mow them down.

3) I do somewhat agree with you On longer RA timers
When a four-man drops three realm abilities versus a solo it should come with some punishment/cost currently due to the speed of gameplay and availability of fights on the server there isn’t that much punishment. I think this also holds true for a new test pots.

I remember very clearly a 3v1 Where the 3man used 6!!!! RA timers to beat the soloer. That level of thirst is insane, rebuff+boat trip+few mins later and they were free to do the same thing again. That’s frustrating.

Norad said it well too, that ‘better’ groups would need to manage timers vs more casual groups, in order to have them up when they meet another good group, which in some ways levels the field a bit and if a baby group wants to dump everything to maybe win a fight, they can give it a go.

Willing to bet majority of this server does not want what youre asking for.
Thu 15 Apr 2021 10:47 AM by Aybabtu
Irkeno wrote:
Thu 15 Apr 2021 10:16 AM
Willing to bet majority of this server does not want what youre asking for.

I think you are spot on here - generally people aren't too happy when things are made a little bit harder ... Even the 30s timer after release in RvR have people moaning.

That being said, this is a place to suggest changes, and I've done the ones I think will improve quality of RvR for both zergs, fg, small man and solo'ers - guess it's up to the devs to consider them now
Thu 15 Apr 2021 11:40 AM by Sepplord
the thing with removal of buffs is that the game never was balanced around not having buffs

and all balancing done in the last years on phoenix have been done on basis of everyone being buffed

even live realised the mistake and gave everyone basebuffs with championlevels (and alchemy buffpots were also a thing)
Thu 15 Apr 2021 1:08 PM by Aybabtu
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 15 Apr 2021 11:40 AM
the thing with removal of buffs is that the game never was balanced around not having buffs

and all balancing done in the last years on phoenix have been done on basis of everyone being buffed

even live realised the mistake and gave everyone basebuffs with championlevels (and alchemy buffpots were also a thing)

I don't necessarily agree with you on this one although I'm not as blue-eye as to say that it didn't have it's kinks. I solo'ed my infil perfectly fine to rr6 l7 back on live without buff pots or charges by utilizing RA's to boost my stats - it wasn't until Buff Bots became the norm that I had to use alchemy pots before getting my own buff bot.

And as for champion level's, you did have a choice whether you wanted buffs or not, and they were not great by any measures - I see the addition of champion level's as a way to raise the baseline of all classes instead of increases level cap. the same with stat cap increases - it was available to all so did not favour one class or realm.

It kind of follows the line that if everyone is special, then no one is special.
Thu 15 Apr 2021 1:24 PM by Sepplord
Aybabtu wrote:
Thu 15 Apr 2021 1:08 PM
it was available to all so did not favour one class or realm.

That's a fallacy.
Just because you give everyone the same thing, doesn't mean it has no impact on game balance.

For example, if you increase HP of everyone, that indirectly nerfs casters and buffs melees.
Or...using your own opening argument: if you give everyone buffs that negatively impacts classes that already have buffs



I also don't think anything from the very early times of DAoC should be taken into consideration for balancing/classinfluence decisions. It was a time where people ran into RvR without templates, often still wearing green or gray armor/weapons, or low levels, when you could mezz someone over and over without immunities. Basically everything was OP if you were an early adopter or someone to reach lvl cap fast
Thu 15 Apr 2021 6:04 PM by Saroi
Aybabtu wrote:
Thu 15 Apr 2021 8:21 AM
Hi Saroi,

Appreciate your reply.

Let me just clarify something, the original statement from my side was "this is supposed to be a classic daoc server" and I am quite possible very missguided here - I have never said I only wanted a classic server - there is a huge difference.

With that out of the way - If I remember correctly, you can not be able to buff yourself fully with Charge items like a buff pot does today - and buy fully we are talking bases, specs and haste. Yes you could get a Dex/Quick, Acuity or Str/Con value 75 and run with that and even Spec AF from epic armor which shared cooldown but that was the extend (might be some others I have forgotten I'm sure someone will point that out in due time). But importantly, no bases and no haste.

I don't mind people popping these charge items to get the advantage they offer, I'm all for that - what I suggest is making it a little bit harder to obtain this edge as well as making some items more relevant because they have these charges or procs for that matter.

Right now buff-pots is a great convenience for everyone but then again, but if everyone runs around with buffs pots then the effect is nullified, except for self buffs classes. I don't mind the charges but at least people would have to work a little bit more for them - otherwise, they could just as well add a buff NCP next to the hastener.

My suggestion around toa bonuses is meant to spice it up and make it less likely to create the perfect template and cap everything weaponless. Force people to sacrifice a resist or two which might bite them in the ass a few times to gain some more melee or casting speed etc.

The charges have a 2 min cd, so you can have all the buff charges up. What happened like at the beginning, most people stayed in keep and waited to be fully buffed with the charges and then go out. This slows down RvR action. Also yes, there are no bases but the difference isn't that much. Atm pot buffs are a total of 83 str/con/dex and 50 quickness and I think acuity.
So str/con/dex will go down to 75, which makes 8 less. Quick and Acuity on the other hand will go up 25. And I think the af was also higher but I am not sure on that part. Haste is possible. Alchemy could make a 17% haste charge buff with 10 min duration. So you would have AF, 75 Str/con, dex/quick, 17% haste, meaning more quick and haste for melees. -> Buff in my opinion.

Removing buffs entirely, eventhough I personally hoped this would be so from the start, is not really achieveable now. When the buffs got down from 75 to 50, already a good amount of players quit the game. (One of them was the highest SB back then). Removing them completely would also make people leave and change the balance overall very highly.

For instance with the change back then, a lot of Sneaks rerolled and made Rangers. Rangers have been the most played Stealthers for the most part of the server and for some time also most played class overall after the archer buff. They would raise so high in priority with removing pot buffs, making it easier to kill a lot of classes with less HP.

And again about your suggestion with ToA will not work like you think. Like I said because of gemcrafting you can make high amount of jewels and you would not have to sacrafice resist or any other stats because you can still get capped out on all stats, resist, skills and get the bonuses. There are some people that made jewels so high, that they have everything capped without any sc on armor.
Fri 16 Apr 2021 10:08 PM by Takii
Aybabtu wrote:
Thu 15 Apr 2021 6:23 AM
I have made 4 suggestions on what I would think would improve quality of life on this server

I think you need to look up the definition of quality of life in games if you think a thread that starts with the words 'Radical changes' qualifies.
Sat 17 Apr 2021 10:31 AM by gotwqqd
I wouldn’t mind seeing ALL active RA’s removed, all cc time reduced by 50% and get rid of all the instant heal /uses.
Sat 17 Apr 2021 12:39 PM by inoeth
how about restricting player lvl to lvl 1 and remove all classes so everyone is the same, no pots, no buffs, no styles (no endu needed), no cc, no RA
man that would be so cool
Sat 17 Apr 2021 1:55 PM by Blitze
I like different classes and different abilities that improve upon time spent (like RAs). And I don’t mind the gear grind and people who farm loads getting templates with a bit more +power or weaponless than me.

I dislike Buffpots/buffpots/charges. And I dislike these new toys that everyone would now have to use to compete. It’s a pointless raising of the entry fee (or cost of death) for RvR.

(It will make soloing as a visible more expensive and even less popular).
Sat 17 Apr 2021 2:07 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Blitze wrote:
Sat 17 Apr 2021 1:55 PM
It’s a pointless raising of the entry fee (or cost of death) for RvR.

Yeah, that 20g every ten minutes really broke the bank of the average player.
Sat 17 Apr 2021 5:16 PM by easytoremember
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Sat 17 Apr 2021 2:07 PM
Blitze wrote:
Sat 17 Apr 2021 1:55 PM
It’s a pointless raising of the entry fee (or cost of death) for RvR.

Yeah, that 20g every ten minutes really broke the bank of the average player.
extra -120g per hour hurts
I've got unlimited plat though don't care one way or the other over price. What I hate is anything outside of the class's spells/styles/abilities: potions/charges/external bonuses. Putting aside the mirroring that occurs through most of the latter some classes already have too many hotkeys and binds, namely Skald/Paladin/Reaver/Enchanter
Sat 17 Apr 2021 8:16 PM by Irkeno
easytoremember wrote:
Sat 17 Apr 2021 5:16 PM
Putting aside the mirroring that occurs through most of the latter some classes already have too many hotkeys and binds, namely Skald/Paladin/Reaver/Enchanter

Laughing at you from pac/trispec healer, or well played assassin. 😂

Reaver, maybe if solo, but ‘chanter lots of buttons’ is brilliant 😂

10/10 thread long may it continue
Sat 17 Apr 2021 10:26 PM by easytoremember
Irkeno wrote:
Sat 17 Apr 2021 8:16 PM
easytoremember wrote:
Sat 17 Apr 2021 5:16 PM
Putting aside the mirroring that occurs through most of the latter some classes already have too many hotkeys and binds, namely Skald/Paladin/Reaver/Enchanter

Laughing at you from pac/trispec healer, or well played assassin. 😂

Reaver, maybe if solo, but ‘chanter lots of buttons’ is brilliant 😂

10/10 thread long may it continue
Enchanter
~resistdebuff 1specHeatDD 2stun 3baseHeat 4dexD 5strD 6dpsD 7hasteD 8aoehasteD 9petHeal 0QC -energyDD +pbaoe Zattack(pet)

Reaver has 6 buttons dedicated to auras, Numb/Slam, anytimer, levi, offBlock flexstun, sideleech, 2 siphons and dot

Your adding more classes is supporting what I was saying anyway
Sun 18 Apr 2021 8:56 AM by inoeth
tbh as it is right now is actually pretty much ok! rebuffing every 10-20min with a single click is very convenient. what i really hated was when you constantly had to worry about buff charges, i mean it was not like you could buff up and go, it had cool downs so you had to wait several minutes to get the next buff up. and you had to do it because some nerds didnt go out if not all buffs were up and meeting them unbuffed was a sure death, forcing everybody else to do the same.

rumors say ppl left when combined pots came, i really dont get that... the only thing i can think about is that they expected ppl not buffing up so they had a dramatic advantage over them and therefore roflstomp everybody. i dont feel a pity at all that these morons left lol
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