Re: The game is getting boring

Magesty's (apparently now deleted) post got one or two chuckles out of me.

Yes, there are "gaps" between players what they consider good/bad/exciting/boring.
What is Important, is that you, me (and/or everyone else) have to accept, that there are different opinions, tastes and viewpoints within this (or any) community. Like it or not.

But that doesn't mean i have to like that/those opinion(s).

I for example fundamentally disagree with 90% of what centenario said, or how/what he tried to compare DaoC to other Genres/Games (i dont even know some of those games.)
Honestly, it is pointless arguing about it though. Won't lose sleep over anything anyone says. Everyone is old enough to know what is nonsense and what's not. i certainly cba anymore.

To me, it feels he wants an "Instant50-Server" for instant action.
There has been plenty Servers of that, and they have gone out just as fast as they came in.
There have been (and are still TBA) plans for comp. Arena Servers, for as long as i can remember of private DaoC shards being a thing.
All sorts of Thid/molvik/DF/whateveryouwant Servers in the past. None is everlasting. Not Uthgard, not Phoenix.

Re: The game is getting boring

wrote: Frankly I have been advocating for letting players start at 5L when hitting lvl 50, just to get access to the basic stuff, or give them for free to everybody like they did with Tireless:
- Tireless (1)
- LongWind (1)
- Purge 3 (15)
- SoS/Ichor/TWF/Maelstrom/DashingDefence (5)
- Aug dex 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- MoArts 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- AoM 5 (10)
- MCL/First Aid (3)
Total= 55 points or 6L5

I strongly disagree with letting everyone start at any place above 1L1.

Climbing the RR ladder is a fundamental part of DaoC - i just ask to make it a lot faster, so every casual can catch up within 2 months, if he sticks to 1 toon and every player investing lots of time every day (4h) can join the "esports" content within 2 weeks.
Xpovoc, Jukaron, Nephamael, Mauril, Lareya, Aideen, Njoro

Re: The game is getting boring

Nephamael wrote:
Tue 2 Mar 2021 9:06 PM
wrote: Frankly I have been advocating for letting players start at 5L when hitting lvl 50, just to get access to the basic stuff, or give them for free to everybody like they did with Tireless:
- Tireless (1)
- LongWind (1)
- Purge 3 (15)
- SoS/Ichor/TWF/Maelstrom/DashingDefence (5)
- Aug dex 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- MoArts 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- AoM 5 (10)
- MCL/First Aid (3)
Total= 55 points or 6L5

I strongly disagree with letting everyone start at any place above 1L1.

Climbing the RR ladder is a fundamental part of DaoC - i just ask to make it a lot faster, so every casual can catch up within 2 months, if he sticks to 1 toon and every player investing lots of time every day (4h) can join the "esports" content within 2 weeks.
Two months of discouraging play?
I think they can accelerate progress to RR5L5 much faster and it will only help population and do zero harm.
They can give 4x rp over what exists until the threshold....maybe drop it to 2x at 5L0 till 5L5.
I also advocate for purge 1 being automatic at level35

Re: The game is getting boring

This is turning into an argument about what's the right amount of cheapening to apply to in game accomplishments.
*Current Lives*
(Phoenix) Kroll/SM
*Past Lives*
(MLF) Levlin/Rang > (Bors) Kleib/RM > (Kay) Traep/Minst > (Lancelot Cluster) Chasis/Sav > (Ywain) Finnegin/Ment > (Uthgard) Mordigg/BD

Re: The game is getting boring

joshisanonymous wrote:
Wed 3 Mar 2021 3:28 AM
This is turning into an argument about what's the right amount of cheapening to apply to in game accomplishments.

The First post was about the supposedly dwindling NA 8v8 Playerbase, accompanied by the redundant demand for the introduction of Seasons into Phoenix, which is basically just a request to hit the RR reset button. Some rather want a RR accelerate button, others a RR instant button.

Not sure if this is really about NA playernumbers or just another "cover" to advocate for their suggestions.

I am all up for discussions/suggestions/etc for the first one, but for the seconnd one i cba anymore to go over this for the 12x time.

Re: The game is getting boring

DJ2000 wrote:
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:32 PM
Magesty's (apparently now deleted) post got one or two chuckles out of me.

Glad you had a chance to read it. Sometimes the best way to interact with lousy ideas is by satirizing them. The eternal downside of satire is that readers will occasionally take it literally, and in an increasingly polarized world the actual meaning is becoming more frequently missed.

To summarize my now deleted post:

The reality is more and more of the people posting on these types of threads don't actually want to play an MMORPG and don't really even like DAoC as a whole, but they fail to realize it. They just want DAoC's combat system dropped into an arena style game that matches the pacing and positive feedback provided by modern games.

Re: The game is getting boring

Magesty wrote:
Wed 3 Mar 2021 5:56 PM
DJ2000 wrote:
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:32 PM
Magesty's (apparently now deleted) post got one or two chuckles out of me.

Glad you had a chance to read it. Sometimes the best way to interact with lousy ideas is by satirizing them. The eternal downside of satire is that readers will occasionally take it literally, and in an increasingly polarized world the actual meaning is becoming more frequently missed.

To summarize my now deleted post:

The reality is more and more of the people posting on these types of threads don't actually want to play an MMORPG and don't really even like DAoC as a whole, but they fail to realize it. They just want DAoC's combat system dropped into an arena style game that matches the pacing and positive feedback provided by modern games.

Its really not my case,
I am a casual, have played DAoC 20 years ago.
I have said that I want players to start at 5L, because it is in my opinion a 50 hour grind at 10k per hour doing flag/casual 8-man - to just get the basic RA to have a good time when doing RvR.

When your mezz never lands even if you cast before and dont get amnesied just because of cast speed, or you can't demezz as fast as the opponent.
When you lose those split seconds just because of lack of RA its frustrating.
If you are fighting against 10L that use purge every single INC and you have to wait 15mins and 3sec delay...
When you dont have access to Mastery of Conc.
When you have to wait to get det9 and purge 3 to start being valuable as a tank to your group.

These things are huge handicap for fairplay.
You can level from 1 to 50 in one weekend or less, but you have to wait 50 hours of frustrating encounters just to remove the arrows to the knees.

We have almost all been 7L+ and its not an achievment anymore. What we want is to go from 7L to 12L.

Do you want to play the tutorial every time you make a new char, even if you have been playing for 20 years?

As a casual I play maybe 15-25 hours per week, which is quite high.
I don't want at all a 8v8 arena gameplay, keep this for gvg people which are mostly hardcore 2month to 10L players, who play the game competitively.
With tons of hours played I have weighted my opinion and think that it would be better for the playerbase to be 5L at lvl 50.

The level playing field event almost grants this if you stick to one character during the whole event. Most people enjoy that.
Never (except when you care) explain, never complain, never pander.

Re: The game is getting boring

MMORPGs, especially those from DAoC's era, reward time investment. This is a fundamental building block of the genre. The idea being, as it is an RPG, you can continue to grow your avatar for years. If you kneecap the potential for growth, you are stifling one of the primary incentives for playing.

If some no-lifer is able to play the same character every night with his 7 no-lifer friends they are going to have stronger characters and be more coordinated as a group. Their 10L5 group is still going to be doing things like casting faster and using active abilities more often than a 5L5 group. The event is in place to attempt to make starting out as a new player more tolerable, but the reality is there is still going to be a meaningful gap in power and experience/skill. A PUG of 5L5 casuals can not and should not be able to compete consistently with a group of 10L5 players that group up together every night.

By complaining about a lack of "fairplay" due to time invested, and creating a list of grievances that essentially run counter to some of the core tenets of the genre (inability to stick with one character, not continuing to play characters if you face adversity, refusing to participate in styles of PvP you can actually compete in), you are announcing very clearly that you don't actually like MMORPGs. It seems apparent to everyone but yourself that you'd prefer to be able to drop in as a "casual" player on a random character and in a game mode of your choice and be placed on a level playing field regardless of time invested. This isn't how "golden age" MMORPGs work.

There is a separate conversation to be had about the game's many poorly designed and problematic mechanics and the issue with 8v8 gameplay in general, but that that discussion looks a lot different than the one being had here.

Re: The game is getting boring

wrote: MMORPGs, especially those from DAoC's era, reward time investment. This is a fundamental building block of the genre. The idea being, as it is an RPG, you can continue to grow your avatar for years. If you kneecap the potential for growth, you are stifling one of the primary incentives for playing.

If some no-lifer is able to play the same character every night with his 7 no-lifer friends they are going to have stronger characters and be more coordinated as a group. Their 10L5 group is still going to be doing things like casting faster and using active abilities more often than a 5L5 group. The event is in place to attempt to make starting out as a new player more tolerable, but the reality is there is still going to be a meaningful gap in power and experience/skill. A PUG of 5L5 casuals can not and should not be able to compete consistently with a group of 10L5 players that group up together every night.

By complaining about a lack of "fairplay" due to time invested, and creating a list of grievances that essentially run counter to some of the core tenets of the genre (inability to stick with one character, not continuing to play characters if you face adversity, refusing to participate in styles of PvP you can actually compete in), you are announcing very clearly that you don't actually like MMORPGs. It seems apparent to everyone but yourself that you'd prefer to be able to drop in as a "casual" player on a random character and in a game mode of your choice and be placed on a level playing field regardless of time invested. This isn't how "golden age" MMORPGs work.

There is a separate conversation to be had about the game's many poorly designed and problematic mechanics and the issue with 8v8 gameplay in general, but that that discussion looks a lot different than the one being had here.

You are not completely wrong about some points - in fact it is needed to tune this beautiful 20 year old game a little to keep it appealing to not just returning but especially new players.
DAoC Phoenix has to become a modern version of DAoC if it wants to prevail against other games.

And speeding up the way to 6L0 will be the most vital part of being a new-player-welcoming-server. For all content - here you are completely wrong. People should not get forced to play the 1 content open for all to make quick RPs (zerging) - the zergs are very healthy in hib and alb and the only reason they are struggling in mid is because there are no 24/7 zergleaders around.

But even if you play your 1-2 hours daily gaming time in the zerg and do 15k/h you still need far 2 long to catch up to RR6 - i agree there should not be an immediate start at RR5, just narrow the time investment to reach it significantly.


(sidecomment: it is not about winning with a 5L-6L pug against a rr10 real gvg grp - it is about winning if you convincingly outplay them - and that is simply not possible if you are rr3-4, not in 8v8 and also not in 1v1)
Xpovoc, Jukaron, Nephamael, Mauril, Lareya, Aideen, Njoro

Re: The game is getting boring

Haven't replied since my original post to foster some discussion.

I would like to point out that the basis of this entire suggestion, theoretically, is that players flock to a "fresh start." A planned rr wipe would allow players to re-organize, re-plan, get excited about investing into the server when the playing field is truly even again. I use the 8v8 population during NA time as an example of why my time that I invested in since 2019 has become stale and tedious.

To be clear, I understand the consequences of a RR wipe. It certainly would upset some high rank people that put a lot of time into their character progression. However, I suggest to you that for every high rank person tearing it up in RvR, there are at least 10 who got frustrated with the rank gap and quit. I can off the top of my head name several people that have become bored with Phoenix in its current state and only play when the pvp events are live, otherwise they don't play at all. That is a result of sheer boredom.

If you let players keep their characters, money, rogs, reskins, etc., and literally ONLY wipe the RR, you could announce this in advance and give groups a chance to come back, level their chars to 50 in anticipation of the RR wipe, and hit the ground running on day 1 of the new season.

At the end of the day, it's 2021 and we are playing a 20 year old game. The question shouldn't be how do we keep things going as is? The question should be how do we protect the integrity and legacy of DAoC while still keeping things fresh and exciting. Seasonal DAoC is the answer.