Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

Hedien wrote:
Sat 28 Nov 2020 6:20 AM
I see a lot of difference in skill out there when solo fighting infi/ns:
- Low rank who do not have VIPER.
- Unexperienced players who do not apply consistently dots via weapon switch.
- And the high RR, maxed out viper stealthers who switch weapons.

I am going to assume the 3rd case for the below.

Let's say I play a thane, 8L against those 8L-11L stealthers, 5 scenario:
- No RA up on both sides, I lose. Poison damage, debuff s/c, disease is just too hard hitting - especially if they succeed their engage.
- Purge up on both sides. Same as above due to reapply without immune mechanism, while the stealther will be immune slam.
- Purge up only on stealther side. I lose - hard. (often seing high rr stealther taking purge 5)
- All RA up on all side, but no vanish. I can win, but nowhere guaranteed. (I don't want to side strafe exploit to apply snare)
- All RA up on all side, vanish. I probably lose due to low hp and disease followed by re-engage, esp if the stealth used FA.

The reason for the above loss is linked to VIPER. The damage is very high and passive so 100% uptime.
Another reason is immunity mechanism, while it can be purged, only stun is generating immune. Rendering purge power much stronger on infi/ns than on solo visi.
IP is 15 min cooldown.

Given the 40% of stealth population, encountering a 9L+ stealther as solo visi is very frequent.
So I find myself doing the following:
- Wait 15 min, try and go out.
- Encounter solo stealth (assume no add) - scenario #3 or 4 occurs.
- Go back to keep. Wait 15 min. Play another game.
- Start again.

Well, this sucks. I want to go out all the time as solo to enjoy the game continuously. But due to the above mechanisms I have observed, I cannot or I would be feeding and getting frustrated. At the end it is related to relative active vs passive RA power and cooldown. With all my active RA, I am at par with someone mainly using passive. This is not right.

Then there is the "natural" enemy class design. Indeed, the stealther classes have significant advantage against cloth. They are their natural enemies.
My issue is, I don't see obvious stealther natural enemies. I agree with OP that, in the spirit of class design, infil/ns should be at a disadvantage against a tank.

Once again, my tests are based on Thane... which without the style proc implemented is underpowered. (especially if you don't side snare straffe to leverage your st)
But I feel there is some truth in this post and that melee stealthers are a bit too strong now at same skill/RR.

All people saying "haha you are not a true soloer so stfu" are just failing to conceptualize and instead resort to personal attacks. Just to be ignored...

Sat/Faturday.
Well constructed argument
I see the fix as
Slight increase in assassin damage....only allow poisons on equipped weapons(3)
Or
Apply penalty for swapping (this also applies to shield swappers which is also an issue)

Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

Taniquetil wrote:
Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:03 AM
6% of your kills are solo. and you get 0.1 solo kills for every time you die. Tell me more about how you solo. please..

I aint never seen you respect a 1v1

But honestly from what I've seen you're playing your class wrong, look inwards first before blaming others.

Solo Visis get run over A LOT, so yes there's a much much higher death rate. That being said, how does one play one's class "wrong"?
The Drunken Ranger!-keeping Devs honest since 2012
Also playing a dual-wielding Saracen
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsY42S8E3-bNo7koW7oFZug

The Drunken Ranger’s Guide to Drunken Rangery
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2902

Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

Hedien wrote:
Sat 28 Nov 2020 6:20 AM
I see a lot of difference in skill out there when solo fighting infi/ns:
- Low rank who do not have VIPER.
- Unexperienced players who do not apply consistently dots via weapon switch.
- And the high RR, maxed out viper stealthers who switch weapons.

I am going to assume the 3rd case for the below.

Let's say I play a thane, 8L against those 8L-11L stealthers, 5 scenario:
- No RA up on both sides, I lose. Poison damage, debuff s/c, disease is just too hard hitting - especially if they succeed their engage.
- Purge up on both sides. Same as above due to reapply without immune mechanism, while the stealther will be immune slam.
- Purge up only on stealther side. I lose - hard. (often seing high rr stealther taking purge 5)
- All RA up on all side, but no vanish. I can win, but nowhere guaranteed. (I don't want to side strafe exploit to apply snare)
- All RA up on all side, vanish. I probably lose due to low hp and disease followed by re-engage, esp if the stealth used FA.

The reason for the above loss is linked to VIPER. The damage is very high and passive so 100% uptime.
Another reason is immunity mechanism, while it can be purged, only stun is generating immune. Rendering purge power much stronger on infi/ns than on solo visi.
IP is 15 min cooldown.

Given the 40% of stealth population, encountering a 9L+ stealther as solo visi is very frequent.
So I find myself doing the following:
- Wait 15 min, try and go out.
- Encounter solo stealth (assume no add) - scenario #3 or 4 occurs.
- Go back to keep. Wait 15 min. Play another game.
- Start again.

Well, this sucks. I want to go out all the time as solo to enjoy the game continuously. But due to the above mechanisms I have observed, I cannot or I would be feeding and getting frustrated. At the end it is related to relative active vs passive RA power and cooldown. With all my active RA, I am at par with someone mainly using passive. This is not right.

Then there is the "natural" enemy class design. Indeed, the stealther classes have significant advantage against cloth. They are their natural enemies.
My issue is, I don't see obvious stealther natural enemies. I agree with OP that, in the spirit of class design, infil/ns should be at a disadvantage against a tank.

Once again, my tests are based on Thane... which without the style proc implemented is underpowered. (especially if you don't side snare straffe to leverage your st)
But I feel there is some truth in this post and that melee stealthers are a bit too strong now at same skill/RR.

All people saying "haha you are not a true soloer so stfu" are just failing to conceptualize and instead resort to personal attacks. Just to be ignored...

Sat/Faturday.
I mostly play solo and duo and I fully agree with you, is 100% true and I am a Champ. Now champs got nerfed and is even worse but without RA on vs a high rank infi was basically the same.
What I don't get is why assassins have advantage 1vs1 vs ALL classes, they should have advantage vs casters, archers and disadvantage vs tanks. This doesn't mean that they should lose but maybe making viper an active 15min RA should be good. They must use every RA for get advantage vs a tank or something like that.

Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

I am not a true soloer really, I am too old for that now and I am quite happy to zerg surf on ranger but I do take my RR5 hero out for a spin solo sometimes and it's template and RAs are based on solo play, I tend to just run task hand in then go back to watching TV with the wife, or doing some work, a good solo fight on the way is a bonus. I don't add unless the person is a known adder/zerger and I disengage if someone else adds.

I haven't lost to an equal RR assassin yet on hero (or at least, don't remember) and more often than not win vs assassins higher RR than me, sometimes using IP/moose, sometimes not. There is no shame in using IP, most assassins have very high viper, so they can't complain about RA dumping, it's just using the tools available to win the fight.

The trouble with visi is the amount you get zerged down and I really have zero inclination to take a boat ride to get zerged, not when I can do it in my own back yard, which means I get very few clean 1v1s, there is usually someone adding from somewhere. Had a series of 1v1s last night with an RR10 inf (forget the name) 3 fights, all interrupted and abandoned and even the last fight some random ranger took the kill shot for perhaps double figures of RPs (I got ~1400), very frustrating but there is little point complaining about it.

Edit, except Yukina, I have been getting smacked about properly by them this morning!
Pagan Death Cult

Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

Hedien wrote:
Sat 28 Nov 2020 6:20 AM
- And the high RR, maxed out viper stealthers who switch weapons.

I am going to assume the 3rd case for the below.

Let's say I play a thane, 8L against those 8L-11L stealthers, 5 scenario:
- No RA up on both sides, I lose. Poison damage, debuff s/c, disease is just too hard hitting - especially if they succeed their engage.
- Purge up on both sides. Same as above due to reapply without immune mechanism, while the stealther will be immune slam.
- Purge up only on stealther side. I lose - hard. (often seing high rr stealther taking purge 5)
- All RA up on all side, but no vanish. I can win, but nowhere guaranteed. (I don't want to side strafe exploit to apply snare)
- All RA up on all side, vanish. I probably lose due to low hp and disease followed by re-engage, esp if the stealth used FA.

The reason for the above loss is linked to VIPER. The damage is very high and passive so 100% uptime.
Another reason is immunity mechanism, while it can be purged, only stun is generating immune. Rendering purge power much stronger on infi/ns than on solo visi.
IP is 15 min cooldown.

Given the 40% of stealth population, encountering a 9L+ stealther as solo visi is very frequent.
So I find myself doing the following:
- Wait 15 min, try and go out.
- Encounter solo stealth (assume no add) - scenario #3 or 4 occurs.
- Go back to keep. Wait 15 min. Play another game.
- Start again..

Yo. Nice argument, can i ask your RA spec? Because honestly, what I see most people doing is speccing so heavily in active RA’s that beyond that they may as well be a RR2, so yeah, it creates an annoying perpetual cycle of running back to keeps and waiting on timers which is awful. Seen you around, never had the chance to 1v1 you, would be interested if you are

This perpetual cycle is only made worse because You do see a lot of ‘im going to wait for all my timers’ as a result I have no shame in dumping vanish when I see that, and then move on. This isn’t fun for the tank or the stealther. It leaves the tank pretty much naked for the next stealther...and the stealther just goes and hits someone else. Pointless. Timers like that are designed for use separately so you can take on multiple fights in sequence, lol good luck as a solo visi on this server Without getting steamrolled by full group, but thats another topic.

I see myself as a good stealther, and honestly let me tell you there are plenty of solo tanks who are able to beat even the strongest ones with ease. Unodostrescatorce took on 3 the other day, including me, because he’s specced right and knows how to counter sneaks. Whilst I find him annoying that when he is grouped he uses SL pots to find solos There is actually no way that I will ever hit him solo because I know that there is no chance that I will win... he’s that good. Am I asking for him to be nerfed? No, he is a strong well played tank that doesn’t need active RA’s to beat a sneak, and I’m ok with that. The balance and ability to do so is readily available for you, you just have to find it by playing your classes differently.

Ledri and Fayte used to be similar as thane, they played well, knew what to do, and were able to play against multiple sneaks at once. Active RA’s were used as a choice not just used as buttons to jump on every fight immediately on Inc...

I’m not trying to be a dick about it here I just think there’s a lot that players can do to improve how they play their own classes before asking for nerfs. 95 out of 100 static Tempest that are dumped on me I’m simply able to walk out of....thats bad play. 95% of people who actively wait for timers in keeps often immediately run to slam an assassin....who you know has Purge 5.... and then act surprised when they Purge.

This is very honest and invaluable advice, and the toughest opponents play with this in mind. If you choose to ignore it thats up to you. Slam.....is not your friend. Think outside the box, adapt to playing your class a bit differently, and you’ll see. Neither is numb...Make us make tough decisions don’t give us a very easy decision to Purge slam and dont think we’re dumb enough to fall for numb.

Look inwards first.

Good luck.
Tani - NS- RR11 - 62% Solokills
Bellelle- RR8 Infil- 75% Solokills
Tanii- RR4 Shadowblade- Forged in the Proving Grounds. Work in progress

WELCOME BACK - 2 Day's of Infil fights - NEW NOV 2020

AGAINST ALL ODDS - Nightshade/Infil Montage

BLADE - Tani - Nightshade/Infil Montage

Tani - REAPER

2 Versus Tani

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Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

Numb works more than you would think, I got someone with it last night (I actually fat fingered it but that's besides the point!) I try to use the spear parry reactive which has a stun then wait for immunity timer before slamming but getting enemy purge out the way early can be a benefit and unless stunned there is no point blowing purge vs a decent assassin either because you just get re-poisoned anyway, it all depends on the class you are fighting and the situation.

I'm actually thinking about dropping slam altogether and dumping the points into 50 parry, slam is a lot of points to spend on a slightly longer stun. I'm rusty AF though so struggling to get positionals off after a reactive stun atm.
Pagan Death Cult

Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

Astaa wrote:
Sat 28 Nov 2020 12:27 PM
Numb works more than you would think, I got someone with it last night (I actually fat fingered it but that's besides the point!) I try to use the spear parry reactive which has a stun then wait for immunity timer before slamming but getting enemy purge out the way early can be a benefit and unless stunned there is no point blowing purge vs a decent assassin either because you just get re-poisoned anyway, it all depends on the class you are fighting and the situation.

I'm actually thinking about dropping slam altogether and dumping the points into 50 parry, slam is a lot of points to spend on a slightly longer stun. I'm rusty AF though so struggling to get positionals off after a reactive stun atm.

Not saying numb doesnt work, but it's too cute of a style most of the time, other styles put more pressure on a decision to purge or not, that causes a difficult choice. Numb and slam both have a very straightforward answer.

But also I feel like you're not really complaining about sin strength either? You said you do well, whilst I dont know your toon you also seemed to comment enjoying our fights, so, im sure i probably did too, fought a few strong lowbie heros lately <3

Anyway:

Proof tanks of all flavours can beat a wide variety of assasins, often multiple at once:
Valewalker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRBEPsSC-E

- 1st fight vs 3 stealthers
- Fightts a RR11 SB without a single active style
-16:50 vs a inf, easy clap.
-17min vs a r8 inf, purge only both sides

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzCRgcwMRo

-2 mins in beats a NS grouped with a bard...

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUwdQBmCGvw

- First two fights, wins 2v1 both times vs good assassins..
- The fight at 7min16 sec is insane play, many thanes would've dumped ST on the NS immediately.

Reaver RR2-4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdO7lzjY0jg

- flexing at RR2-4... Smashes people

Jackle - Merc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBhDIcLfig

- Beats multiple sneaks
Tani - NS- RR11 - 62% Solokills
Bellelle- RR8 Infil- 75% Solokills
Tanii- RR4 Shadowblade- Forged in the Proving Grounds. Work in progress

WELCOME BACK - 2 Day's of Infil fights - NEW NOV 2020

AGAINST ALL ODDS - Nightshade/Infil Montage

BLADE - Tani - Nightshade/Infil Montage

Tani - REAPER

2 Versus Tani

Loki/Undacover - Special Edition Videos

Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

Taniquetil wrote:
Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:42 PM
Astaa wrote:
Sat 28 Nov 2020 12:27 PM
Numb works more than you would think, I got someone with it last night (I actually fat fingered it but that's besides the point!) I try to use the spear parry reactive which has a stun then wait for immunity timer before slamming but getting enemy purge out the way early can be a benefit and unless stunned there is no point blowing purge vs a decent assassin either because you just get re-poisoned anyway, it all depends on the class you are fighting and the situation.

I'm actually thinking about dropping slam altogether and dumping the points into 50 parry, slam is a lot of points to spend on a slightly longer stun. I'm rusty AF though so struggling to get positionals off after a reactive stun atm.

Not saying numb doesnt work, but it's too cute of a style most of the time, other styles put more pressure on a decision to purge or not, that causes a difficult choice. Numb and slam both have a very straightforward answer.

But also I feel like you're not really complaining about sin strength either? You said you do well, whilst I dont know your toon you also seemed to comment enjoying our fights, so, im sure i probably did too, fought a few strong lowbie heros lately <3

Anyway:

Proof tanks of all flavours can beat a wide variety of assasins, often multiple at once:
Valewalker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRBEPsSC-E

- 1st fight vs 3 stealthers
- Fightts a RR11 SB without a single active style
-16:50 vs a inf, easy clap.
-17min vs a r8 inf, purge only both sides

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzCRgcwMRo

-2 mins in beats a NS grouped with a bard...

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUwdQBmCGvw

- First two fights, wins 2v1 both times vs good assassins..
- The fight at 7min16 sec is insane play, many thanes would've dumped ST on the NS immediately.

Reaver RR2-4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdO7lzjY0jg

- flexing at RR2-4... Smashes people

Jackle - Merc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBhDIcLfig

- Beats multiple sneaks
Hey Tani I respect you, but I must show you a video where Therabbin let me with 15% just with pa+stun and I haven't RA (I mean when the stun ended I was left with 15% hp) ... I can't see how to win if me and him are without RA's... And I think I can use my class in a decent way, maybe the 50/50 spec doesn't help vs assassins but.. Come on from 100% to 15..

Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

DarkDavion wrote:
Sat 28 Nov 2020 3:02 PM
Hey Tani I respect you, but I must show you a video where Therabbin let me with 15% just with pa+stun and I haven't RA (I mean when the stun ended I was left with 15% hp) ... I can't see how to win if me and him are without RA's... And I think I can use my class in a decent way, maybe the 50/50 spec doesn't help vs assassins but.. Come on from 100% to 15..

Tnx. I believe, you, but if you Get PA/CD'd without Purge, i feel like that's one of those fights you should probably be losing, the aim should be to not be gettting perfed first of all.

- dont get PA'd
- Numb before you get CD'd
- hope for a block/parry on it just making sure you face the attack quick enough.


If you're both without RA's tthen yeah a numb is enough tto stp him stunning you and then you can wait to slam after the fact.
Tani - NS- RR11 - 62% Solokills
Bellelle- RR8 Infil- 75% Solokills
Tanii- RR4 Shadowblade- Forged in the Proving Grounds. Work in progress

WELCOME BACK - 2 Day's of Infil fights - NEW NOV 2020

AGAINST ALL ODDS - Nightshade/Infil Montage

BLADE - Tani - Nightshade/Infil Montage

Tani - REAPER

2 Versus Tani

Loki/Undacover - Special Edition Videos

Re: Assassin need some kind of nerf

Tani if u remember me we had nice fights in the srtygya pvp event and assassins were in a good place. Now after PA buff, bleed buff they are over the top.. If they were good before now they are just too good.. I rember that before these buff and champ nerfs maybe vs melee I was a bit over the top (just vs melee, bcs vs caster champs can easily destroyed) but now.. Come on... Is like saying minstrel is fine now after 7 nerfs.. A well played mincer can win vs all classes, has no counter.. But they said can't balance it in 1vs1 without breaking group mechanics.. This isn't true for assassins