Re: Server Changes

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 17 Oct 2020 6:16 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Sat 17 Oct 2020 2:03 PM
But in term of game design, free FA2, 5L RAs and this styles changes, lots or people saw and told them the obvious problems they posed, like the bleed 200 cap.

Free FA2 would have lead to more complaints about minstrel and skald being able to use them "in combat" as, just like with poisons and weapon switching via /switch, an ancient mechanic is now common place showing that it is an issue. These complaints would have been found valid and changes would have been made thereby making free FA2 a qol in terms of disease cure while at the same time a minor minstrel and skald solo nerf.

5L RAs would have seen at least two more changes before even a test, one being eld rr5 either gone or only available to wizard, eld, rm and necro would also have lost access to cc immune pet and in general some more changes either before or shortly after their introduction. And consider that there would have been a vote afterwards.

The style changes would have seen a nerf to the absorb debuff and heal debuff if warden with these specs were successfully integrated into groups making them a problem, vw would likely have see a nerf to the dd delve, reaver levi would likely have seen a small rise in dd delve.
In the end what looks like a huge change would have ended up pretty tame for everyone with the biggest unknown being 60% -> 40% snare reduction which could have gone either way.
Since everyone already specs in a way to have the required effect, e.g. snares in 8v8, the style overhaul would have just been a fix for a couple paper cuts, making lines other than hammer viable, add some interesting fluff to hybrids like thane and as the only real change remove garotte and arms anytime snare or direct after evade stuns.

In case you missed it, this is pretty much how every change has gone. The difference however is the level and tone of negativity in the recent months and sorry but I really can't be bothered anymore to even try if every change is made out to be the biggest change ever that has to be fought tooth and nail with the corresponding level of vitriol.

That's a real shame. I can understand where you are coming from but please remember that the majority, by far, appreciate what you and the GMs do.

FWIW, I quite liked the look of the Celtic Spear changes...

Re: Server Changes

jonl wrote:
Sat 17 Oct 2020 6:27 PM
maybe it's time you guys need to admit that the current people making decisions aren't making the right ones and get help from a council of players who can collectively make good changes?

there's no need to take offense to people saying your changes are bad, majority of people just wanna play fun and balanced daoc (plus it makes u look immature)

Maybe you should pay the hundreds of dollars a month in upkeep for this free game and then you can make some changes.

I swear to God, you people think that because it's free for you it's free for everyone. Bandwidth and server upkeep cost real world money, and it's not a small amount, but all you can do is whine.
"An honest enemy is better than a false friend."

Re: Server Changes

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 17 Oct 2020 6:16 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Sat 17 Oct 2020 2:03 PM
But in term of game design, free FA2, 5L RAs and this styles changes, lots or people saw and told them the obvious problems they posed, like the bleed 200 cap.

Free FA2 would have lead to more complaints about minstrel and skald being able to use them "in combat" as, just like with poisons and weapon switching via /switch, an ancient mechanic is now common place showing that it is an issue. These complaints would have been found valid and changes would have been made thereby making free FA2 a qol in terms of disease cure while at the same time a minor minstrel and skald solo nerf.

5L RAs would have seen at least two more changes before even a test, one being eld rr5 either gone or only available to wizard, eld, rm and necro would also have lost access to cc immune pet and in general some more changes either before or shortly after their introduction. And consider that there would have been a vote afterwards.

The style changes would have seen a nerf to the absorb debuff and heal debuff if warden with these specs were successfully integrated into groups making them a problem, vw would likely have see a nerf to the dd delve, reaver levi would likely have seen a small rise in dd delve.
In the end what looks like a huge change would have ended up pretty tame for everyone with the biggest unknown being 60% -> 40% snare reduction which could have gone either way.
Since everyone already specs in a way to have the required effect, e.g. snares in 8v8, the style overhaul would have just been a fix for a couple paper cuts, making lines other than hammer viable, add some interesting fluff to hybrids like thane and as the only real change remove garotte and arms anytime snare or direct after evade stuns.

In case you missed it, this is pretty much how every change has gone. The difference however is the level and tone of negativity in the recent months and sorry but I really can't be bothered anymore to even try if every change is made out to be the biggest change ever that has to be fought tooth and nail with the corresponding level of vitriol.

The problem is you proposed the changes without ANY of the common sense or flagrant problems addressed. Its only after everyone points them out in a surge of negative feedback that you adjust the proposed plan.. and then you go and say things like "well obviously this would have been changed even before testing..." Why even propose it then with flagrant issues still present that anyone with a mediocre sense of DAoC balance can see a mile away?

I know you're not dumb, so you SURELY should understand why your recent two large changes caused the effect they did. I refuse to believe someone intelligent enough to run this server cant see clear as day where things went wrong.

Re: Server Changes

The post above reflects a bit of the spirit of negativity that has been pointed out. To call someone as having "no common sense" - well, what do you expect? Happiness and motivation? Instead to say "I have seen this scenario where it might be problematic, maybe if we did... what do you think?" is a much better format and simply better manner.

My subjective view:
- Changes are good and are the reason why many people stick with Phoenix. To change away from this formula is not doing the server a favor.
- Changes are best gradual, in the longer term you might want to implement them all. But step by step is best, focusing on UP/OP perceptions as you gathered via the poll. Since less peeps feel concerned, less emotion.
- Moderate negative expression by clear forum mute for days/week with reason "politeness/respect". It is not enough to lead someone to quit the game, but enough to improve the forum life and next posts from said persons.

@Grue
In the end my advice is, take the same plan you had for changes. Break it down to a class, then do 1-2 week 1 class. It will maintain fresh change, give enough testing feedback and prevent uproar/emotional community feedback.

Fat/Saturday

Re: Server Changes

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 17 Oct 2020 6:16 PM
The style changes would have seen a nerf to the absorb debuff and heal debuff if warden with these specs were successfully integrated into groups making them a problem, vw would likely have see a nerf to the dd delve, reaver levi would likely have seen a small rise in dd delve.

Doubt that. Maybe the 50% abs debuff but youll only get a few of them off an entire fight (90 end cost) The healing debuff is 125 end and it works on the HEALERS not the target so you really only debuff 1 source of healing maybe 2 if lucky.

Re: Server Changes

BiGmAn wrote:
Sat 17 Oct 2020 6:35 PM
problem is you based your change ideas off the survey which was answered by people with zero clue about how the game is meant to work and whats good/bad etc. People thought wardens were the most underpowered class on hib with already improved cast speed to majors (3.2 to 2.5), access to cures and cure ns and MOTA (1,65 they didnt have any of these). Really shows the level of player answering this survey.

So you play a warden? Because they are so OP right? Who really enjoys a warden, they do what they always have done (even on live with better styles/options then the current ones offered) they pulse bubble and heal(poorly butter ST now), with a bit of peel. Trying to give them another option or more tools isn't way op. Sure are they more than viable 1v1 or some small man sure. Then again plenty of classes just suck 1v1 or small man does that mean we should buff them massively no becuase then they will be OP in RvR / 8 man. End of day thats how this game is balanced (and these changes wouldn't have put them even near say minst or scout levels so why the QQ r/t to wardens).

If you took bubble away from warden who would play them? Bubble carries them as just a thing most groups want.

Re: Server Changes

Hedien wrote:
Sun 18 Oct 2020 7:39 AM
The post above reflects a bit of the spirit of negativity that has been pointed out. To call someone as having "no common sense" - well, what do you expect? Happiness and motivation? Instead to say "I have seen this scenario where it might be problematic, maybe if we did... what do you think?" is a much better format and simply better manner.

My subjective view:
- Changes are good and are the reason why many people stick with Phoenix. To change away from this formula is not doing the server a favor.
- Changes are best gradual, in the longer term you might want to implement them all. But step by step is best, focusing on UP/OP perceptions as you gathered via the poll. Since less peeps feel concerned, less emotion.
- Moderate negative expression by clear forum mute for days/week with reason "politeness/respect". It is not enough to lead someone to quit the game, but enough to improve the forum life and next posts from said persons.

@Grue
In the end my advice is, take the same plan you had for changes. Break it down to a class, then do 1-2 week 1 class. It will maintain fresh change, give enough testing feedback and prevent uproar/emotional community feedback.

Fat/Saturday

This really is constructive feedback. Thanks.

Re: Server Changes

Amarath wrote:
Sun 18 Oct 2020 9:02 AM
BiGmAn wrote:
Sat 17 Oct 2020 6:35 PM
problem is you based your change ideas off the survey which was answered by people with zero clue about how the game is meant to work and whats good/bad etc. People thought wardens were the most underpowered class on hib with already improved cast speed to majors (3.2 to 2.5), access to cures and cure ns and MOTA (1,65 they didnt have any of these). Really shows the level of player answering this survey.

So you play a warden? Because they are so OP right? Who really enjoys a warden, they do what they always have done (even on live with better styles/options then the current ones offered) they pulse bubble and heal(poorly butter ST now), with a bit of peel. Trying to give them another option or more tools isn't way op. Sure are they more than viable 1v1 or some small man sure. Then again plenty of classes just suck 1v1 or small man does that mean we should buff them massively no becuase then they will be OP in RvR / 8 man. End of day thats how this game is balanced (and these changes wouldn't have put them even near say minst or scout levels so why the QQ r/t to wardens).

If you took bubble away from warden who would play them? Bubble carries them as just a thing most groups want.

To be fair, I was planning on temping my 50 warden for the changes and started working on it to prepare for the changes. Since they didn't go through I tweaked the temp and am playing the standard group warden 10 blade spec and am having a lot of fun with it.
Hib: Imadoctor//Hypospray//Batleth

Alb: Redshirts//Philipjfry//Shieldsup

Mid: Aielman//Mahstuls//Smallsoldier

Re: Server Changes

Hedien wrote:
Sun 18 Oct 2020 7:39 AM
The post above reflects a bit of the spirit of negativity that has been pointed out. To call someone as having "no common sense" - well, what do you expect? Happiness and motivation? Instead to say "I have seen this scenario where it might be problematic, maybe if we did... what do you think?" is a much better format and simply better manner.

My subjective view:
- Changes are good and are the reason why many people stick with Phoenix. To change away from this formula is not doing the server a favor.
- Changes are best gradual, in the longer term you might want to implement them all. But step by step is best, focusing on UP/OP perceptions as you gathered via the poll. Since less peeps feel concerned, less emotion.
- Moderate negative expression by clear forum mute for days/week with reason "politeness/respect". It is not enough to lead someone to quit the game, but enough to improve the forum life and next posts from said persons.

@Grue
In the end my advice is, take the same plan you had for changes. Break it down to a class, then do 1-2 week 1 class. It will maintain fresh change, give enough testing feedback and prevent uproar/emotional community feedback.

Fat/Saturday

Read my post again. I never said they lack common sense. I said the common sense ISSUES weren't addressed until after the post went up and the complaints started.

This is a perfect example where people see negativity = bad and didn't even comprehend the post.

Re: Server Changes

I apologize in advance for my terrible english, hope google will helps me well through this.

In my opinion (probably unpopular one) implementing styles from live on a 1.65 scaled server without nerfing most of them is a bad idea at start, it's like adding nitro on your crappy bicycle basically.
Change is fine, adjusting is better. The staff already done that in the past for the friar (adding few styles/spells) to get the class more competitive. Same for the paladin by adding more pts per level or adding cure nearsight on most of support classes. Having all classes doing - more or less - the same thing is boring (talking about tanks, for the most part) and that is not what people asked for, I believe.

People asked for adjustments, balances and not confirmity. Some classes in our lovely server are still lacking of love (thinking immediatly about the Thane, who would love to have more pts per level, for example, like the paladin did) and this can be easily fixed. People are waiting for ages to see their impossible 4 part styles chains get reduced to 2 (with some nerfs/adjustements or course) as well.

Let's be honest, everyone knows that and such changes on styles would haven't helped at all with adjustments and would have unbalanced more things (I can't remember how stupid the VW looked like but it was just pure nosense at least on Phoenix) That is why people complained really hard on it, pure logic.

I guess people like how the styles were developped and created back in time and love to have basics styles, without absurds effects like reducing heals, ABS debuff, both snare/ASR reduction at once or crap like that. That's the spirit of Old DAOC I believe.

I encourage the staff to do many changes (or not) as they want, big or small ones. People won't care as long it's done properly and for adjustementing/balancing purposes.
Keep this up ladz, you did fine until then.