Balancing Battle Group RvR Play

Started 11 Oct 2020
by Atilla
in Suggestions
Hi All, have played DAOC since 4 days before its launch. Have experimented with live and many shards and all three realms here. IMO Phoenix has a keen eye in balancing 8man play style, there is rock paper and scissors imbalances for sure but the net is very close. However, my opinion differs when it comes to Battle Group style RvR, they do not have a keen eye and large imbalances appear. Please welcome to read my attached analysis. Do your own thinking, perhaps there are other ideas that can help resolve the obvious hyper-imbalances to this style of play. A person needs are different from their wants, likewise the needs of a good game (one that lasts the test of time) are different than the sum of the participants wants. - Odin/Oadin I could not find a way to attach a word file to this Forum, sorry for the cut and paste.


UUGE Battle Group Specific RvR Imbalances in Phoenix

Phoenix has had a good eye toward 8man man balance. This topic excludes this subject and focuses on what they do not have a keen eye toward. Realm verses Realm balance particularly at BG scale. Many things change at this scale. Interrupts become far more important than CC. Hitting unseen objects through walls and doors far more important.

Scoring: Highly Favors 4, Moderately Favors 2, Neutral 1, Moderately Unfavors -1, Highly Unfavors -3
Door Damage: Highly Favors Albion
Reason: Theurgist can add door dps of about ½ a ram each. No other realm has this
Due to the recent Limit of 2 Rams this bonus now doubles or even triples the door destruction speed of any other realm. Want to test or balance this fast, simply make it so Theurg pets can no longer hit doors.
Score: Albion 4, Hibernia 1, Midgard 1

Guard Elimination & Control: Highly Favors Albion, Moderately Favors Hibernia, Moderately Disfavors Midgard
Reason: Albion and Hibernia both have significant advantages with controlling and eliminating PvE mobs. Un-targetable to mobs (due to lack of disease and MA) Necros, Spam pet classes, High Level Pets, Multiple and Overlapping Control, Near sight in a RvR spec line.
Score: Albion 4, Hibernia 2, Midgard -1

Siege Caster Utility: Moderately Favors Albion over Hib, Hibernia is moderately favored vrs Mid
Reason: Albion’s near sight in an RvR favored spec line, Albion AoE DPS and AoE DPS Snare in an RvR spec line, Albion's debuff of same dmg type is 15 seconds verses Hib and Mid 8seconds. GTAOE is key to interrupting casters and healers inside towers and keeps. All FIVE of these significant advantages are combined into a single class and spec – Albion’s Earth Wizard. Pets chase through walls and Theurgs can spam a mobile pet.

Hib’s Baseline Stuns for most casters.
Score: Albion 4, Hibernia 2, Midgard 1

BG Field Caster Utility: Moderately Unfavors Midgard
Reason: Animist and Theurg are spam pet classes, the bone dancer was too powerful in 8man so it was nerfed at least twice and its pets do not cc or lock down.
Score: Albion 1, Hibernia 1, Midgard -1

BG Wall Invasion: Hibernia is Moderately Unfavored
Reason: Albion and Midgard have 3 classes that climb, Hibernia has two
Score: Albion 1, Midgard 1, Hibernia -1

Super Spam Pet Classes: Midgard is Highly Unfavored
Reason: Both Animist and theurges can have have 15+ pets, the bonedancer the mid Super pet class has 1 and 2 blue sub pets. The raw dps and utility for Alb and Hib are far superior better.
Score: Albion 1, Hibernia 1, Midgard -3

AoE RA Spread: Midgard is Moderately Unfavored
Reason: Static tempest, Negative Maelstorm, and TWF are more likely found in Albion and Hibernia BGs as they are available to more highly played classes in these realms.
Score: Albion 1, Hibernia 1, Midgard -1

MDPs in BG: Moderately favors Midgard
Reason: Berserker DPS verses peers, Savage DPS verses peers, Troll Strength verses Peers, Skald MDPs vrs Peers
Score: Midgard 2, Albion 1, Hibernia 1

Support Role in BG: Moderately favors Hib
Reason: PvP support wardens are the bubble class, the other two realms use their bubble spec in PvE. Bards heal and are better support than minstrel and skald.
Score: Hibernia 2, Albion 1, Midgard 1

Siege Equipment: Even for all realms

Tanks Role in BG: Even for all Realms

Hybrid Role in BG: Even for all Realms

Net Battle Group Specific RvR Imbalances Highly Favor Albion & Moderately Unfavor Midgard

Net Battle Group Balance RvR Scores
Albion a whopping +18
Hibernia a solid +10
Midgard a miserable -2



With a 4 Hour Timer if you want to play RvR in Battle Groups, Play for Keeps, get and retain relics, Farm Zergs trying to retake a keep, win BG fights, simply join the Albion Zerg. When you want to go play 8man just seek out your favorite realm.
Recommendation: Try to even out some of the important factors of Battle Group RvR.

Ideas:
Balance the BG specific RvR Utility of the Earth wizard with peer class specs in each of the other two realms, either boost other realms spec utility up or take this one down or both.

Increasing ram limit to 3 or 4, reduces the theurg door dmg multiplier. Or simply make it so theurg pets cannot hit doors. Fast and easy gives everyone the same dreary 20-30 minutes to open a keep.

Let Bone Dancers Spam and Fire and Forget their Small Pets just like a theurge

Let another class in Hibernia only climb

Make sure all realms have the same class count of AoE Ras

The small favoritism can be ignored if on balance the realms have a net BG balance score about the same.
Sun 11 Oct 2020 9:20 PM by Gildar
I read ALL single word of this post.

Good job indeed.

It is true, in my op, that in Phoenix there is too much care for 8mens than others playstyles.

I do not agree on ALL your analisys, but you do very well.

In few words, i agree on your suggestions. As a Hib dedicated player i miss mid BG in RVR.
Sun 11 Oct 2020 10:36 PM by opossum12
1. When you do a +/- scale, please make 0 neutral. Making 1 neutral and having scores in the negative, it's crazy.

2. The Midgard bias is a little bit extreme. Mid notoriously has all the cry babies (Live and shards). The funny thing is that I asked you on discord if you played Mid, and you answered that you don't play at all. Well done.
Sun 11 Oct 2020 11:36 PM by keen
For pure players fault there are too many ppl still playing. There are disadvantages for especially Midgard and hence they are constantly beaten up at eu prime in big scale rvr. Eg earth Wiz being by far the best zerg caster, caster grps are only viable for hib and alb and hence alb and hib zerg have higher caster count in zergs.

It's also a destabilising reward system in daoc with winner takes it all. If polemo or pilz drop on mid zerg Midgard will get 5k rps tops out of the fight while their zerg will get sth like 50k total rps. So it's much more beneficial for me to join the biggest zerg and win all the time to get all rps over running Midgard ending with 200rp per zerg fight.
Sun 11 Oct 2020 11:55 PM by easytoremember
Something your scoring doesn't reflect is the advantage midgard has with a large presence of healer-backed climbers occupying the walls

Inside the keep the larger number of melee oriented classes leads to better coverage of postern doors where a caster watching the same door can fail to rupt the first cast, be out of power, be currently rupted by an enemy etc
Mon 12 Oct 2020 1:00 PM by Shamissa
opossum12 wrote:
Sun 11 Oct 2020 10:36 PM
1. When you do a +/- scale, please make 0 neutral. Making 1 neutral and having scores in the negative, it's crazy.

2. The Midgard bias is a little bit extreme. Mid notoriously has all the cry babies (Live and shards). The funny thing is that I asked you on discord if you played Mid, and you answered that you don't play at all. Well done.

Did you ask that to Oadin? And he said he doesnt play Mid? If so i think you need to re -read because is all he has the time to play at this time anyways Midgard, and bg leader two times a week if he has the time anymore.

Xoxo
Tue 13 Oct 2020 8:31 PM by Emmigosa
I disagree on alot here You keep saying alb has access to ns in a rvr line, well rm and elds both have ns in rvr lines. You mention debuffs but body the main alb caster train is 8 seconds as well. Somehow you see wizard as the premier alb caster, it's not. Bds are one of the more played classes prob top 10, I don't see how you would say mid has less access to it. I don't see how guard elimination favors anyone? You cite things like pets and cc, all realms have access to this and tbh pets don't factor much into guard elimination. If anything I'd argue that almost all mid groups and hib groups will be running a bard or healer with access to the realms primary Mez line, not all alb groups run sorcs. The only thing I agree on is the climb class differences and that theurgs offer alot of door dps. Otherwise it seems like your opinion is highly skewed by either knowledge or bias.
Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:31 PM by IdiamVonGawaine
Atilla wrote:
Sun 11 Oct 2020 4:34 PM
The small favoritism can be ignored if on balance the realms have a net BG balance score about the same.

Not bad. A lot valid points, and I appreciate your attempt at being neutral.

I would like to see them add some murder holes to the keeps so you could actually try to defend them, as opposed to what exists now. Using cata's, archers, and gtaoe casters to suppress the exposed areas on the ramparts is fine, but as it stands now, IF you do that, then there is virtually NO defense because you have ZERO line of sight to the attackers. That's just dumb.

Murder holes
- Should be added so that defenders can target attackers while safe from AOE cat, archer, and casted gtaoe attacks up on the ramparts.
- Strategically located to cover the outer and inner doors, in towers on the corners, and inside the inner keep to defend the courtyards.

As it stands now, once a force breaks through the outer, you can't defend from anywhere but the roof.....which means you can't defend.

Oil
- should NOT be exposed over the door, but should be protected and able to be dumped on attackers as they pass through the outer door into the keep.

Rocks
- should be positioned at locations along ramparts to be dropped on campers below

Siege ladders
- should be availabe for employment to scale outer walls, and able to be attacked by defenders

Garrison force
- Guard force increased in size and spawn rate based on population numbers
- Guard spawns from adjacent towers and keeps to assist keeps under siege

Keep lord debuffs
- The current keep lords are pretty much indestrucatable, which makes no sense considering how easy it is to dispatch the rest of the garrison. They should all be brought in line and lose their "super" abilities and the 9874837247 HP's they currently have.

While it's easy to just buff keep doors and the lords, that doesn't help the keep sieges much, or the RvR.
Tue 13 Oct 2020 10:04 PM by Peppar
Scoring: Highly Favors 4, Moderately Favors 2, Neutral 1, Moderately Unfavors -1, Highly Unfavors -3
Door Damage: Highly Favors Albion
Reason: Theurgist can add door dps of about ½ a ram each. No other realm has this
Due to the recent Limit of 2 Rams this bonus now doubles or even triples the door destruction speed of any other realm. Want to test or balance this fast, simply make it so Theurg pets can no longer hit doors.
Score: Albion 4, Hibernia 1, Midgard 1



mid is better vs door then hib cause of celerity tho
Wed 14 Oct 2020 2:55 AM by Forlornhope
Peppar wrote:
Tue 13 Oct 2020 10:04 PM
Scoring: Highly Favors 4, Moderately Favors 2, Neutral 1, Moderately Unfavors -1, Highly Unfavors -3
Door Damage: Highly Favors Albion
Reason: Theurgist can add door dps of about ½ a ram each. No other realm has this
Due to the recent Limit of 2 Rams this bonus now doubles or even triples the door destruction speed of any other realm. Want to test or balance this fast, simply make it so Theurg pets can no longer hit doors.
Score: Albion 4, Hibernia 1, Midgard 1



mid is better vs door then hib cause of celerity tho

I haven't done bgs in about a year or so, but the big difference between mid meleeing a door and theurgs petting it is mid has to sit in range of all the casters on the walls while a theurg can stand out of most of their ranges to pet doors. I know some of the doors do get bugged and you have to basically be right on top of it, but not all of them.
Wed 14 Oct 2020 7:14 AM by Sepplord
opossum12 wrote:
Sun 11 Oct 2020 10:36 PM
The Midgard bias is a little bit extreme. Mid notoriously has all the cry babies (Live and shards)

Oh...the irony (or is it just hypocrisy...i often get those mixed up)
Thu 15 Oct 2020 10:29 PM by Spiegal
I don't know about those numbers that you present, but I think that all Mid players tend to agree.

And with the poll result, I'm afraid that Mid won't see better days.
I was quite shock to see no love for the RM and worst, people still think the BD is OP..
I'm at the point that I just do casual task and some 8-man. I lost all appeal for this realm and I see also the effect on our guild.

Mid is a farm land, it's appeal is the melee characters which doesn't fit on this server, but worse mid mage was nerfed...go figure.
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Suggestions or the latest topics