Making Procs available to other Weapon Lines

As a result from the class based discussions following the style changes we're going to implement a mechanic that will allow you to turn in a non-crafted weapon to copy most of it's stats over to another weapon type.

Rational:
One major purpose for the style change was to raise the viability of otherwise unused weapon lines (exceptions here are reaver and svg, increasing viability of the non class unique spec lines was a non-goal). The available weapon speeds and procs are an external factor that heavily affects the line viability. This feature is intended to remove that factor.

Goal:
Classes that have access to one proc / weapon speed in one line should have access to it in all comparable lines.

Implementation Implications:
For now, comparable means all 1h lines are one group and all 2h lines are another group. This classification will make blunt/hammer/crush only procs available to assassin / ranger classes. Further, it will make pole / cspear only procs available to champ/paladin and spear only to all 2h sword users.
Given the way quality plays into this feature, procs and speeds that were only available on previously undesirable <99% weapons now become usable.
One thing that is currently unclear is the left hand usability flag of the weapon. Currently we lean towards keeping / using that flag from the target weapon. The primary motivator here is midgard left axe.

How it works:
There will be a NPC that will take a non-crafted weapon, this weapon is considered the donor weapon, and a level 51 crafted weapon of the desired quality and weapon type as the target weapon.
All stats, procs, the speed and the level (and hence dps) from the donor weapon will then be applied to the level 51 crafted weapon. The target "crafted" flag will be removed from the target weapon.
Class restrictions on the donor weapon will also apply to the target weapon.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:03 PM by labra

Does it mean we'll get pbaoe dd proc from easmarach stinger on any weapon?

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:04 PM by exveer

Neat change, I like it. One thing I'm confused about though:
"it will make pole / cspear only procs available to champ/paladin and spear only to all 2h sword users."
and then...
"Class restrictions on the donor weapon will also apply to the target weapon."

Doesn't the latter statement mean that a Paladin won't have access to the Polearm stats? But an Armsman could put Pole stats on a 2her?

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:04 PM by

gruenesschaf

labra wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:03 PM
Does it mean we'll get pbaoe dd proc from easmarach stinger on any weapon?

Given that it is ns only, you will pretty much only be able to create a blade version of it that will also have the same ns only restriction.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:05 PM by Noashakra

Not a big fan of the weapon proc changes.
The procs style changes are fine imo.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:05 PM by labra

Ok I didn't understood class restrictions would remain on transfered weapon.
Still nice

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:05 PM by

gruenesschaf

exveer wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:04 PM
Doesn't the latter statement mean that a Paladin won't have access to the Polearm stats? But an Armsman could put Pole stats on a 2her?

It might be worth it to consider adding an explicit arms requirement to all polearms to avoid this implication. Right now pretty much none of these weapons have an explicit class restriction (which is what would be copied) given that they are inherently class restricted.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:30 PM by Beeblebrox

So a +crush donor hammer will have +crush imbued on a target sword? Is that the desired outcome?

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:33 PM by Rugolf

So.If I understand correcly. If you have 1 feather weapon you can just dublicate weapons then so 1 Broodmother Fang and have 20 other Piercing weapons with the same Stats etc. Basicly Feathers are going to be cheap now. Then an entire guild just needs 1 , for example, Broodmother Fang. And just trade it between all Players. So everyone will have a Broodmother Fang when the guild only has 1.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:36 PM by SinfulByNature

So if im Reading this correctly, I can Craft a 100% 4.5 2H, and Donate a 5.8 94% unique 2H weapon. Then Transfer all the stats Proc and Speed, onto the crafted Weapon.
This will result in a 100% 5.8 speed 2H weapon.
Correct?

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:37 PM by

gruenesschaf

Rugolf wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:33 PM
So.If I understand correcly. If you have 1 feather weapon you can just dublicate weapons then so 1 Broodmother Fang and have 20 other Piercing weapons with the same Stats etc. Basicly Feathers are going to be cheap now. Then an entire guild just needs 1 , for example, Broodmother Fang. And just trade it between all Players. So everyone will have a Broodmother Fang when the guild only has 1.

The donor weapon will be destroyed.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:40 PM by Akhilio

From an Infiltrator perspective:

If the new weapon retains the speed from the donor weapon, this is beneficial to Hib and Mid (both have more desirable procs on a weapon speed that's a lot more common, think of the mid 4.2 tridot axe, hib 4.1 dex/quick sword and 2.6 tridot oh pierce, vs albion.....uhh 4.2 sword with 63 delve lifetap?) For Thrust in particular, the majority of procs available are 3.3 speed. The only OH procs that are semi-viable are Dmg add at 3.3, and possibly 20% haste at 2.6 in slash. I currently can't find any tri-dot OH options, and both of Alb's tri dot weapons are 3.3 MH speed. There are no desirable MH thrust Sidi proc weapons at all. The "slowest" MH Alb Thrust Feather weapon is a 3.6 speed AF proc weapon.

Here's my line of thinking:

Almost all of Albion's thrust procs are 3.3 speed, some available in OH. This is a weapon speed that is possibly desirable to some classes, but any DW class using Thrust will still have to "suffer" through reduced per-hit damage. Yes I understand that it means a 3.3 user will swing faster, but with the availability of RA to reduce swing speed, this is underwhelming at best. Due to the fact that Thrust is already limited to 3.9 speed weapons at the slowest, I'm wondering if there is any possible consideration for us to move weapon procs to different speed weapons, while still maintaining offhand-only tags etc.

Thoughts?

Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:16 PM by Naylo

thanks for all the free platiniums from the increased business for Armorcrafters

Maybe you could leave the "crafted by" and add "modified" or "enchanted" or something else please ?
Because we crafters have our pride, especially for MPs

Lugh (1st allcrafter of the server)

Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:36 PM by Steelcurtain28

So does this mean on mid I can take my SI neck quest 2.7 speed blade turn proc slasher and now put that on a hammer or axe rofl??????

Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:51 PM by oldmanukko

if I were to use a 4.1 spd Shadow Walker's Blade as a donor weapon to combine with a 3.5 spd mooncrested scythe... i'll end up with a 4.1 spd moonscrested scythe that has the same stats and dex/qui debuff from the blade?

Tue 6 Jul 2021 10:51 PM by SgtGator

1h-->1h and 2h-->2h, within restrictions on the weapon ( class restrictions )

Wed 7 Jul 2021 1:16 AM by boridi

Seems like we have jumped the shark.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 6:03 AM by

gruenesschaf

Steelcurtain28 wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:36 PM
So does this mean on mid I can take my SI neck quest 2.7 speed blade turn proc slasher and now put that on a hammer or axe rofl??????

To end up with a 2.7 speed blade turn proc hammer or axe yes.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 6:09 AM by keen

Can't wait for Infis/mercs with 4.5 mainhand.
Since this is a heavy buff to procs, proc change should be scaled for DW users since they have double proc chance and profit twice as much from this change.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 7:53 AM by inoeth

can all +weapon type skill be changed to +all melee? otherwise that would be really stupid ;(

Wed 7 Jul 2021 8:17 AM by Saroi

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 6:09 AM
Can't wait for Infis/mercs with 4.5 mainhand.
Since this is a heavy buff to procs, proc change should be scaled for DW users since they have double proc chance and profit twice as much from this change.

Class restrictions is still there though. So if a weapon says Pala/Arms the new weapon will stay at Pala/Arms only. I am not sure if I am missing something atm, because I haven't looked at all the combination(especially available crush weapons) that is possible atm, but afaik all the higher 1h speed weapons are tied to a certain class or classes. I assume since you write about 4.5 Mainhand for mercs who have access to all lines, since they can't equip it now, they will not be able to equip it after the change.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 8:23 AM by Ceen

Phoenix staff: We introduce combined potions and nerf charges to make RvR less of a money grind

Also Phoenix staff: Ok everyone needs a weaponless temp, a quiver of 100 % crafted weapons and the corresponding quiver of feather items.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 9:36 AM by Saroi

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Jul 2021 7:36 PM
Implementation Implications:
For now, comparable means all 1h lines are one group and all 2h lines are another group. This classification will make blunt/hammer/crush only procs available to assassin / ranger classes. Further, it will make pole / cspear only procs available to champ/paladin and spear only to all 2h sword users.

Overall I like the idea, but I still have mixed feelings.

I still see some part of imbalance. Something like Ahkilio wrote about Infs not having access to good procs and weaponspeeds, while with this change Nightshades who are basically all pierce now will get the d/q debuff on pierce + upgrade from weapon speed 3.9 to 4.1.(Rangers too). Allthough I have to be honest and say, I have not checked the crush weapons so far and what would be accessable.

But I still think some special weapons like Apo with 6.0 speed and 200 Abla, which is higher than others, should not be able to be usable by every other 2h user.

My suggestion would be, instead of using all 1h weapon lines, let it stick to same type: 1h Thrust= 1h Thrust, 2h Slash = 2h Slash and the weapon speed does not get transfered. The weapon speed from the crafted weapon is the one that stays. (In mid maybe Axe/Sword together as Slash?). In case of Apo could be arguable for the extra Two hand line, that it could be maybe be transfered to other specific 2h weapons used by that line but not Pole or Staff(Friar)

Be like d/q debuff or dot Thrust with speed 3.3 to crafted 3.9 Thrust
Fast Sword(Axe?) to a crafted 4.0/4.1 Sword.

But for this it would probably also be best to change the weapon crafting. Meaning all crafted items, that do not reach 16.5 dps(lv51) at arcanium level should be upped.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 9:48 AM by voroench

Akhilio wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:40 PM
From an Infiltrator perspective:

If the new weapon retains the speed from the donor weapon, this is beneficial to Hib and Mid (both have more desirable procs on a weapon speed that's a lot more common, think of the mid 4.2 tridot axe, hib 4.1 dex/quick sword and 2.6 tridot oh pierce, vs albion.....uhh 4.2 sword with 63 delve lifetap?) For Thrust in particular, the majority of procs available are 3.3 speed. The only OH procs that are semi-viable are Dmg add at 3.3, and possibly 20% haste at 2.6 in slash. I currently can't find any tri-dot OH options, and both of Alb's tri dot weapons are 3.3 MH speed. There are no desirable MH thrust Sidi proc weapons at all. The "slowest" MH Alb Thrust Feather weapon is a 3.6 speed AF proc weapon.

Here's my line of thinking:

Almost all of Albion's thrust procs are 3.3 speed, some available in OH. This is a weapon speed that is possibly desirable to some classes, but any DW class using Thrust will still have to "suffer" through reduced per-hit damage. Yes I understand that it means a 3.3 user will swing faster, but with the availability of RA to reduce swing speed, this is underwhelming at best. Due to the fact that Thrust is already limited to 3.9 speed weapons at the slowest, I'm wondering if there is any possible consideration for us to move weapon procs to different speed weapons, while still maintaining offhand-only tags etc.

Thoughts?

From an infie point of view, agree with Akhilio, since we dont have any good donors, taking into account that dps+spd goes with proc. The only thing I see from the given list is to copy the blade dot 3.5 for pierce, but that would be a very minor upgrade from 3.3. to 3.5 spd.
crush 4.4-4.5 spd looks interesting, but the procs there are also not what infie want (like AF/dd etc). Tripple dot is very strong, not using it a "no go"

The option for copying only proc could be a good idea with the restriction to class/weapon usage with the speed/dps remaining as on the crafted weapon
or giving the option to choose like a) only proc b) both proc + spd/dps
and of course would like to see the glow effects copying also

Voroio

Wed 7 Jul 2021 9:54 AM by labra

The more I think about this evolution, the more I think it's a bad idea.

First we had style lines, all having their pros and cons, some being useless.
Style change has addressed that and now all weapon lines are nice enough.
But this change and custom change has made those line to be quite identical: they all have snare, ast etc and now only few styles remains as defining styles for a weapon line (levi, for instance).

Now with the possibilty to "transfer" a weapon stat/proc from a weapon line to another, I feel like it just remove the diversity and just leave it at few styles and cosmetic.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 10:01 AM by inoeth

labra wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 9:54 AM
The more I think about this evolution, the more I think it's a bad idea.

First we had style lines, all having their pros and cons, some being useless.
Style change has addressed that and now all weapon lines are nice enough.
But this change and custom change has made those line to be quite identical: they all have snare, ast etc and now only few styles remains as defining styles for a weapon line (levi, for instance).

Now with the possibilty to "transfer" a weapon stat/proc from a weapon line to another, I feel like it just remove the diversity and just leave it at few styles and cosmetic.

the opposite is true. i mean you said yourself most lines have become identical, the only reason to chose one over another is the availability of certain procs. now given that you can also exchange these procs to another weapon line, it all comes down to personal preference if you like hammer more than swords etc. that creates more diversity

Wed 7 Jul 2021 10:21 AM by Sepplord

i feel like you are both correct but not really talking about the same thing

it does create diversity in the sense of the visually wielded weapon types and your character sheet,
but it reduces diversity regarding the specchoices having an impact on available tools

The latter sounds worse on paper, but in praxis the meta dictated (for example) most mid melee to play hammers and there was no real diversity outside of people intentionally going for an off-meta build, not because it was better but just out of principle/to be different

Since the style change has happened, the new meta-defining thing is becoming the procs/speeds, so in regards to the already implemented stylechange, this step of equalizing speeds/proccs does make sense. Even if it leads to mostly only visual differences, not actual toolkit differences being played

Wed 7 Jul 2021 10:30 AM by labra

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 10:21 AM
i feel like you are both correct but not really talking about the same thing

it does create diversity in the sense of the visually wielded weapon types and your character sheet,
but it reduces diversity regarding the specchoices having an impact on available tools

The latter sounds worse on paper, but in praxis the meta dictated (for example) most mid melee to play hammers and there was no real diversity outside of people intentionally going for an off-meta build, not because it was better but just out of principle/to be different

Since the style change has happened, the new meta-defining thing is becoming the procs/speeds, so in regards to the already implemented stylechange, this step of equalizing speeds/proccs does make sense. Even if it leads to mostly only visual differences, not actual toolkit differences being played

this !

Wed 7 Jul 2021 11:20 AM by Naylo

I remember that Phoenix was supposed to be a "classic" server with QOL

now it's just a not-TOA server that's very much not "classic" anymore
maybe let's just go to Atlas and make it happen

Wed 7 Jul 2021 11:31 AM by Irkeno

Weapon speeds by line need to be capped.

4.5 1h Thrust weapon ? Plz no

If anything goes above 3.9 for thrust it should be capped at 3.9, with broodmother or other things being the exceptions as they already exist.

Equally a 3.9 thruster should convert to a 4.2 blade for example.

Also, this is going to make farming obscure mobs mandatory. Should you not just put all the df weapons and other drop weapons on the merchants if youre gonna do this?

Wed 7 Jul 2021 11:49 AM by inoeth

Naylo wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 11:20 AM
I remember that Phoenix was supposed to be a "classic" server with QOL

now it's just a not-TOA server that's very much not "classic" anymore
maybe let's just go to Atlas and make it happen

this is a myth, phoenix never claimed to be classic, just taking 1.65 as a starting point

Wed 7 Jul 2021 11:59 AM by Astaa

Ceen wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 8:23 AM
Phoenix staff: We introduce combined potions and nerf charges to make RvR less of a money grind

Also Phoenix staff: Ok everyone needs a weaponless temp, a quiver of 100 % crafted weapons and the corresponding quiver of feather items.

Any serious melee toon already has a weaponless template. Likewise, any serious melee carries around multiple weapons, different tool for each job. I carry 6 LWs, 2 shields and 2 blades on my hero, for example. Sins go way above that.

This will actually make templating easier because it gives a wider choice of drop weapon (feather, drop etc) that people can then copy stats to crafted weapons for crafted dots, lifetaps etc Also easier to keep the same weapon but have 2 versions of it at different speeds.

I do have reservations on it and I think it will open up a few instances of weapon procs that may end up needing to be adjusted but we will see how it plays out.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 12:18 PM by evert

Astaa wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 11:59 AM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 8:23 AM
Phoenix staff: We introduce combined potions and nerf charges to make RvR less of a money grind

Also Phoenix staff: Ok everyone needs a weaponless temp, a quiver of 100 % crafted weapons and the corresponding quiver of feather items.

Any serious melee toon already has a weaponless template. Likewise, any serious melee carries around multiple weapons, different tool for each job. I carry 6 LWs, 2 shields and 2 blades on my hero, for example. Sins go way above that.

how serious are we talking? I'm rr11 and don't have a weaponless template.

Astaa wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 11:59 AM
This will actually make templating easier because it gives a wider choice of drop weapon (feather, drop etc) that people can then copy stats to crafted weapons for crafted dots, lifetaps etc Also easier to keep the same weapon but have 2 versions of it at different speeds.

I do have reservations on it and I think it will open up a few instances of weapon procs that may end up needing to be adjusted but we will see how it plays out.

Don't think you understood the changes. You will need loads of weapons all of which have different stats, how does that make weaponless easier?

Wed 7 Jul 2021 1:13 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Naylo wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 11:20 AM
I remember that Phoenix was supposed to be a "classic" server with QOL

No you don't.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 2:24 PM by Sepplord

Astaa wrote: Any serious melee toon already has a weaponless template

No true scotsman...

Wed 7 Jul 2021 3:41 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 2:24 PM
Astaa wrote: Any serious melee toon already has a weaponless template
No true scotsman...

Well maybe not... with uthers gloves I think every melee toon does have a weaponless template :p

Thu 8 Jul 2021 12:36 AM by Irkeno

evert wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 12:18 PM
Don't think you understood the changes. You will need loads of weapons all of which have different stats, how does that make weaponless easier?

No amount of meta changing on weapons will make weaponless easier/harder. However this change is only important to those with weaponless temps. If you dont have, or want, a weaponless temp, you werent taking advantage of weapon swaps/procs/speeds/dmg types before and you likely wont be after. This is fine if thats your choice, all this does is open up the floor a bit for more diversity of choice.

Realistically i think it opens it up a bit too much, and I think some smart/tryhard G4MERS will beat the system and find some silly proc combos not available to all, which the gms will regret unless they make all df/farmabale weaps available for feathers…

But at the same time I think that it will interest a nominal number of people who really care/compete at the high end anyway, so the majority of the bg/zerg/casual/whatever u want to label it, wont give a flying **** about it.

Thu 8 Jul 2021 12:38 AM by gotwqqd

Limit/penalize swapping

Thu 8 Jul 2021 6:37 AM by Sepplord

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Jul 2021 12:36 AM
If you dont have, or want, a weaponless temp, you werent taking advantage of weapon swaps/procs/speeds/dmg types before and you likely wont be after.

The disadvantage of not min/maxin every single attack with the best proccs wasn't that big for some classes though.
Making a hybrid temp weaponless is a huge cost, while optimizing weaponproccs didn't necessarily have too huge benefits in a groupsetting.
The gap between min/maxin proccs and not doing it has become much bigger now, so someone who was fine before without swapping could easily believe that they now have to get a weaponless temp

But even if you are correct, what about new melee players? The barrier of entry into playing a hybrid was already much higher compared to a caster who could often build a template with the accessories they found while levelling.
Melee template, and especially hybrid template just got much more expensive, the opposite of what should have been happening

i believe the changes make sense regarding the spirit of the stylechange
I believe in the benefits the economic effects of draining gold from the world for all the new weapons being crafted will have
but the barrier of entry to play melee or hybrid classes has been increased

PS: all under the assumption that uthers gloves will be removed soon

Thu 8 Jul 2021 7:13 AM by Lollie

I thought the Devs didnt want people messing around with templates hence why they didnt want to change using items from back packs ala legion chunk etc, but now with style change which has meant changing weapons to go with the better style lines and now proc changes means more dicking about?

Tue 13 Jul 2021 6:55 AM by inoeth

is this going to happen or was the announcement just kind of a mood test?
ETA?

Tue 13 Jul 2021 2:28 PM by keen

Could we have +skill of a weapon line turned into +all melee?
That way you could still use your old template and don't need to redo it.