Attempt #3344 to have visible Solos and Small Man exist

Started 22 Dec 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
TL;DR: New command usable as full group against solos / small man granting a kill rp bonus for letting them live netting about as much kill rp as killing them would have.

ETA: Depending on feedback this weekend or early next year.

Over the last months we discussed various options but never really found something that wasn't flawed in some way or likely not going far enough. However, we're now at a point where we'll just test one idea to see if it can't at least improve the situation.

The goal that makes it quite difficult is to have the different playstyles coexist within the same area to allow a fluent switch from solo / small / group fights to keep fights / zerging and vice versa.

There are 2 pretty big obstacles to visible solos / small man, this change attempts to address only one and that is the player base and its behavior. With the task system we're not really helping as we're practically incentivizing people to play red is dead even more than would originally be the case already.
The goal of the first change is to give an incentive to let visible solos and small man live, the incentive should be about as large as the incentive to kill them. Discussions were had here and it started with flat out giving the rp as if you had killed them once those that you let live expire of natural causes without your involvement, then it evolved into that amount of rp becoming a personal pool that would be be used up / added onto your future kills.
The initial iteration that will go live however will be a 20% kill rp bonus for your next 5 kills per person you let live, just the next X kills will stack up (e. g. if you let a 3 person small man live you will have a 20% kill rp bonus for your next 15 kills).
Depending on how / if it's used, it may become a permanent feature at which point it will also get titles and maybe reskins as further rewards.

As for the details, it will be a command with a range restriction that one of your group members has to do while having an eligible enemy in target, the range is there to show that you could actually have just ran them over if you wanted to but explicitly chose not to.
Once such a marked person dies of natural causes without your involvement the bonus is applied to you / your group. Please note that the marked person has to either die in a mostly fair fight or more than 60 seconds after marking them to be counted for you. The fair fight part is there to encourage people to let 1vs1 / small man vs small man play out without driving over them while the 60 second rule is there that you don't run in front of your zerg while marking everything that will be eaten in the next couple seconds.
The initial iteration will make this command only usable while in a full group, it's likely that it will become usable for smaller group sizes (e. g. trio vs solo, 5 vs duo etc.) in future iterations.

Please note that stealther small man are not eligible targets, however, stealther groups can use the command on eligible targets.
Here some iterations are possible that would also remove solo stealther, solo minstrels, solo skalds and small man consisting of just those classes as eligible targets, however, the initial version will only remove stealther groups as eligible targets.

Update 2021-01-06:
After the next pvp event, /tag will be slightly reworked. Instead of a % bonus for the next x kills an rp amount equal to killing the tagged people will be added to a personal pool and your future kills give up to 50% extra rp taken from this pool until it is exhausted.
This makes using /tag even if you intend to zerg afterwards worthwhile, right now you end up with using up a kill credit / 25% bonus for low rp kills like they happen in zerg / keep fights making it a net rp loss to use /tag even if you use up all the kill credits. This change makes it so that you never end up with a net rp loss if you use tag and use up all the accumulated pool rp.

Storing tag usage and hence allowing associated titles will then also be the case.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:39 AM by Shadowkill
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:32 AM
Interesting.

interesting.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:42 AM by Taniquetil
1. I LOVE that you are addressing this, really think this is a good thing to look at as its probably one of the saddest parts of the server RN.

2. Think this is interesting as a first step, but my gut says you’d probably also need to apply a debuff the other way for consistently running over solos/small.

My rationale for that is that it would De-incentivise full groups to be roaming the coast to pick off solos or going to certain areas to actively avoid finding fair fights and as a result it would incentivise them to be running elsewhere looking for bigger fights or groups/8v8 fights. Or if that group wasn’t keen to find there is a man fights that probably run as more small man groups, both of which go some way to encouraging play style diversity on the server. Because let’s be honest as much as we can talk about it 8v1 is not really a play style. 😅

3. Appreciate you looking at this. If it works I’m pretty, actually no, highly confident you’ll also see a marked drop in the stealther population.

A tiny little shining light in what has been a pretty diabolical 2020! Well done 👏 👏 👏 👏
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:00 AM by Sepplord
At First i thought the First Line was a Typo saying the command is for the bigger groups.
Pretty out of the Box Idea, intrested to see how it plays out.

Personally i would prefer something that rewards fighting against a bigger group (Like give a RP/featherbonus similar to fighting near a keep/Tower gives rewards Just for dmg/healing/etc...) instead of yet another bonus-command for the set-groups.
But If it works out how it is planned then it will be an improvement and the sooner it is tested the better.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:00 AM by poplik
I mostly run smallman, but I personally think you should never ever punish people for killing enemies, so the incentive not to kill is ok but no 'fines'.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:13 AM by DJ2000
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:27 AM
1. ... this change attempts to address only one and that is the player base and its behavior.

2. Please note that the marked person has to either die in a mostly fair fight or more than 60 seconds after marking them to be counted for you.
1. Toughest to change, but yields the best results if successful. Rooting for you guys...and no, iam not a Bard. *jk*
2. The "mostly fair fight" part is somewhat dubious to understand. As in max cap for attackers? As in damage received/dealt?

I guess there is no mark cap for each Solo = 5 different 8man could mark the same guy. Would make sense.
It has to be Enemy Realm Visi-Solo obviously, so at Coast/Bridge of your own Zone or in Enemy Zone:
A - 60 sec has to pass to get the Bonus. Which means you'd have to see someone "on the way" or "roaming" to be certain he won't die in less than 60 sec. Tagging someone that is already at bridges/Coast/Docks will less likely grant the Bonus. so yeah, i guess they won't get the benefits of this.
B - The Enemy Zone part is ....prolly a problem as you mark them for "death by someone else" and the deeper in Enemy zone you go the less likely there will be someone to take them down. So yeah, might not work out in those cases.

Ideas evolve once they start, so even if this idea has some rough edges it can evolve into something else. So iam all up for testing this out.

(my initial idea was the opposite way of granting 0 rp to any full grp taking down a visi-solo, unless there is an enemy full group around in case of Zerg/Siege - but on the other hand get a rp bonus if they take down an "adder" of an ongoing fight.)
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:21 AM by gruenesschaf
DJ2000 wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:13 AM
2. The "mostly fair fight" part is somewhat dubious to understand. As in max cap for attackers? As in damage received/dealt?

Fair as in how many people get a reward aka touched the person when he dies. The general rule is only deaths at least 60 seconds after tagging them count, however, this fair fight clause is just there to explicitly reward not adding onto ongoing "fair" fights. Fair would be solo vs solo or group size +- 1 e. g. 2vs3, 3vs4, 5vs4.
After the 60 seconds all that matters is that the person dies a realm death with at least 1 enemy player involved and all people who tagged him will receive the bonus.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:25 AM by Maca
Why don't u guys just remove stealth out of the game and make it so they can group visible. Its my main class and it seems they just get the short end of the straw on everything.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:26 AM by Hangel
To be honest look complicated for me...
I think you can try something like "task for gvg" and solo or small...
you can still use flag task but to get credit as party you need to be in gvg and killing only a gvg party in the flag area... and let solo and small use a special tag too.
If a gig party kill small or solo tagged don t get credit for task and very few rp from the kill

I know is not easy and tsk for try!
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:35 AM by Servelle
Seems to me that the game is getting more and more complicated.
When i read "fair fight" i can't help smiling, is a 1v1 11L NS vs a 4L scout a "fair fight" by example ?
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:36 AM by thomyg
You give for small/solo a zone for PvP, they dont use it, and finaly you remove it...

Why continuing to solve something who isn't mandatory in this game?

People who play in RvR zone know the risks, if they dont want add, they can choose to not stack at meeting zone.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:42 AM by DJ2000
Maca wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
Why don't u guys just remove stealth out of the game and make it so they can group visible. Its my main class and it seems they just get the short end of the straw on everything.
Are you serious? You must be joking.

Stealthers dont have a problem to get steamrolled, because they have... stealth.

This command works on visi because (1) you have to be a visible Target withing Range of the command to type (or press macro) for it to work, Plus he should not be in Combat already (2) as 60sec has to pass for it to work. The visi gets no bonus, besides the fact that he might live long enough to get a 1v1, 4v4, xvx whatever.
How is a stealther getting "the short end of the straw" in any of this?
You can't "target" a stealther. So how would that even work?
BUT contrary to your statement - as pointed out in the opening post - Stealther Groups can actually use this command too for a RP bonus.
As a full stealth grp you can kill the guy(s), for example at Dock, once and let them pass next time, or vica versa and the stealth grp benefits.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:52 AM by Valaraukar
Maybe I understood it wrong, so please correct me if needed.... Will this change let me avoid to be killed by 2 or 3 rangers / scouts adding while fighting another toon with my bd / thane / sm? No, right? They will still add as hell everywhere.

The problem is not a fg running on visi solos. The problem is the add during fights by other solo / small. And the add is usually done by ranged stealth toons, of course, because it's easy. This is what killed visi soloes roaming, especially in some zones.

And above all I doubt that this mechanic will stop a fg killing a solo, better to get those few rps soon than to wait something that may never happen, imho.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:13 AM by Ceen
Simple removing archers from the game is way easier.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:16 AM by Hangel
Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:52 AM
Maybe I understood it wrong, so please correct me if needed.... Will this change let me avoid to be killed by 2 or 3 rangers / scouts adding while fighting another toon with my bd / thane / sm? No, right? They will still add as hell everywhere.

The problem is not a fg running on visi solos. The problem is the add during fights by other solo / small. And the add is usually done by ranged stealth toons, of course, because it's easy. This is what killed visi soloes roaming, especially in some zones.

And above all I doubt that this mechanic will stop a fg killing a solo, better to get those few rps soon than to wait something that may never happen, imho.

Lol your guild add gvg fight with 3 fg and your problem is the stealth adding your solo fight? ahahahahah
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:45 AM by Valaraukar
Hangel wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:16 AM
Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:52 AM
Maybe I understood it wrong, so please correct me if needed.... Will this change let me avoid to be killed by 2 or 3 rangers / scouts adding while fighting another toon with my bd / thane / sm? No, right? They will still add as hell everywhere.

The problem is not a fg running on visi solos. The problem is the add during fights by other solo / small. And the add is usually done by ranged stealth toons, of course, because it's easy. This is what killed visi soloes roaming, especially in some zones.

And above all I doubt that this mechanic will stop a fg killing a solo, better to get those few rps soon than to wait something that may never happen, imho.

Lol your guild add gvg fight with 3 fg and your problem is the stealth adding your solo fight? ahahahahah

Here is one of the poor losers who cannot understand what is written and so throw a random whining reply.
Yeah we add and will forever add if this pleases us. We couldn't care less abou your "gvg" done in task zones or near bridges or ev gates. You are ridicolous.
And I quite never play solo, because I don't have enough time, I just tried to point out that the issue is not fgs running on solos, but visi solo added by stealthers. You know there is a thing called "example", I thought it was good to facilitate people understanding, but it seems that it failed with you, sorry.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 12:27 PM by Seelixh
Nice idea, but will duos get exluded again?
We often let solo's alive. And get 'nothing' for that.
On the other way, 8man get free rps on everything without any effort. (I know they have to fight for their rps as we do but with /gvg they get free bonus rps. Also every additional group member gives a little rps bonus).
Tue 22 Dec 2020 12:36 PM by Soulstice
def need to try this out, thanx!
Tue 22 Dec 2020 12:38 PM by Soulstice
for solo my opinion is they should not reward rp s unless killed by other solo. if they add first a fight this "protection" will expire and then they become worht rps
Tue 22 Dec 2020 12:43 PM by gotwqqd
Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:52 AM
Maybe I understood it wrong, so please correct me if needed.... Will this change let me avoid to be killed by 2 or 3 rangers / scouts adding while fighting another toon with my bd / thane / sm? No, right? They will still add as hell everywhere.

The problem is not a fg running on visi solos. The problem is the add during fights by other solo / small. And the add is usually done by ranged stealth toons, of course, because it's easy. This is what killed visi soloes roaming, especially in some zones.

And above all I doubt that this mechanic will stop a fg killing a solo, better to get those few rps soon than to wait something that may never happen, imho.
I don’t think preserving your duels is the objective
Tue 22 Dec 2020 12:45 PM by gotwqqd
This isn’t going to fix anything
Everybody still going to bitch about their little game within the game
Tue 22 Dec 2020 12:46 PM by bigne88
finally devs are taking account of this problem. I whish you the best of luck, before stealthers kills the server defenetly, you deserve a successfull server.

Sadly I gave up already. It's too painfull to see a server killed by adders and stealthers.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:30 PM by Hangel
Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:45 AM
Hangel wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:16 AM
Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:52 AM
Maybe I understood it wrong, so please correct me if needed.... Will this change let me avoid to be killed by 2 or 3 rangers / scouts adding while fighting another toon with my bd / thane / sm? No, right? They will still add as hell everywhere.

The problem is not a fg running on visi solos. The problem is the add during fights by other solo / small. And the add is usually done by ranged stealth toons, of course, because it's easy. This is what killed visi soloes roaming, especially in some zones.

And above all I doubt that this mechanic will stop a fg killing a solo, better to get those few rps soon than to wait something that may never happen, imho.

Lol your guild add gvg fight with 3 fg and your problem is the stealth adding your solo fight? ahahahahah

Here is one of the poor losers who cannot understand what is written and so throw a random whining reply.
Yeah we add and will forever add if this pleases us. We couldn't care less abou your "gvg" done in task zones or near bridges or ev gates. You are ridicolous.
And I quite never play solo, because I don't have enough time, I just tried to point out that the issue is not fgs running on solos, but visi solo added by stealthers. You know there is a thing called "example", I thought it was good to facilitate people understanding, but it seems that it failed with you, sorry.

Well I think you don't understand nothing of the goal of this changes... that is give a rp bonus to party for let solo and small man to survive and enjoy a fight they can win.
The goal is to stop guild like your that run 16 man killing solo at flag, for example...
Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:36 PM by oldmanukko
huuge thanks for trying something. much appreciated and i look forward to seeing how well it works. already hopeful.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:46 PM by FaBx85
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:27 AM
TL;DR: New command usable as full group against solos / small man granting a kill rp bonus for letting them live netting about as much kill rp as killing them would have.

ETA: Depending on feedback this weekend or early next year.

Over the last months we discussed various options but never really found something that wasn't flawed in some way or likely not going far enough. However, we're now at a point where we'll just test one idea to see if it can't at least improve the situation.

The goal that makes it quite difficult is to have the different playstyles coexist within the same area to allow a fluent switch from solo / small / group fights to keep fights / zerging and vice versa.

There are 2 pretty big obstacles to visible solos / small man, this change attempts to address only one and that is the player base and its behavior. With the task system we're not really helping as we're practically incentivizing people to play red is dead even more than would originally be the case already.
The goal of the first change is to give an incentive to let visible solos and small man live, the incentive should be about as large as the incentive to kill them. Discussions were had here and it started with flat out giving the rp as if you had killed them once those that you let live expire of natural causes without your involvement, then it evolved into that amount of rp becoming a personal pool that would be be used up / added onto your future kills.
The initial iteration that will go live however will be a 20% kill rp bonus for your next 5 kills per person you let live, just the next X kills will stack up (e. g. if you let a 3 person small man live you will have a 20% kill rp bonus for your next 15 kills).
Depending on how / if it's used, it may become a permanent feature at which point it will also get titles and maybe reskins as further rewards.

As for the details, it will be a command with a range restriction that one of your group members has to do while having an eligible enemy in target, the range is there to show that you could actually have just ran them over if you wanted to but explicitly chose not to.
Once such a marked person dies of natural causes without your involvement the bonus is applied to you / your group. Please note that the marked person has to either die in a mostly fair fight or more than 60 seconds after marking them to be counted for you. The fair fight part is there to encourage people to let 1vs1 / small man vs small man play out without driving over them while the 60 second rule is there that you don't run in front of your zerg while marking everything that will be eaten in the next couple seconds.
The initial iteration will make this command only usable while in a full group, it's likely that it will become usable for smaller group sizes (e. g. trio vs solo, 5 vs duo etc.) in future iterations.

Please note that stealther small man are not eligible targets, however, stealther groups can use the command on eligible targets.
Here some iterations are possible that would also remove solo stealther, solo minstrels, solo skalds and small man consisting of just those classes as eligible targets, however, the initial version will only remove stealther groups as eligible targets.

gj for the willing to change, but I don't think it will works... people will continue the easy, more instant & (sometime) better fun way to kill everyone
Improving DF & let soloers play inside would be the best way
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:02 PM by Nephamael
First of all, thanks a lot for trying something!
I hope this will improve things significantly enough.



Here are my concerns:

1)
The initial iteration that will go live however will be a 20% kill rp bonus for your next 5 kills per person you let live, just the next X kills will stack up (e. g. if you let a 3 person small man live you will have a 20% kill rp bonus for your next 15 kills).

-So you can simply let 1 solo live and then run over 5 solos to cash in the bonus RPs

my suggested fix: the bonus only applies for grouped enemies being killed


2)
the marked person has to either die in a mostly fair fight or more than 60 seconds after marking them to be counted for you

-So an 8man lets a solo live and a smallman runs over the solo = the 8man gets nothing.

my suggested fix: Just apply the bonus whenever the solo dies to enemies. - the 8man could get an extra 100 RPs if he dies in a fair fight if you want to explicitly reward this part.

3) - If an 8man passes by an ongoing 1v1 they need to be able to directly "cash in" with the command to get a bonus - else they let walking solos live and run people over during ongoing 1v1s. - Or the command needs a 2nd / command for an ongoing fight, where the 8man directly gets RPs or activate their 5 kill bonus, for not getting involved.

This point 3) is probably the most important one - else especially low killspeed classes like Pallies, Wardens, Friars, etc get punished by this tool, while the intention is to see exactly those classes out in RvR again.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:02 PM by stonesouldier
Soon: Alb/Mid 10-man groups with their 2 extra solo skalds/mini's sidecar to use for bonuses.

Also, What's next, protection for my lowbies out xp'ing in RVR zones because I got killed, or for an 8 man that gets in the way of the Polemo/Pilz/MidFlag zerg?

As much as this is not a horrible implementation concept, to me it just goes against the entire concept of open-field RVR. It's meant to be chaos and war and you DO get bonuses for trying to play solo in the form of more RPs per kill if successful, that's why it's harder. There is inherently more danger in going with fewer than 8 (or these days with only 8) in RvR and that is compensated in the game already in the form of the bonuses you get when you do succeed. I love the fact that I have to be actually 5x more careful when roaming solo or in a small-man group to ensure I'm not zerged down. It's an important aspect of the game and adds depth. I guess this is the kinder, gentler realm war nowadays.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:05 PM by Astaa
Fantastic idea, thanks
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:07 PM by Nephamael
Soon: Alb/Mid 10-man groups with their 2 extra solo skalds/mini's sidecar to use for bonuses.

For that those sidecars would have to win their fights all the time tho or the 8man has to wait to rezz them, i don't think this is rly a valid point, even tho we will see some kind of abuse ofc, like with any content, but that's np, abuse can be punished
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:13 PM by brewtus23
This is stupid, just play the game. Stop trying to please every little bitching and moaning cry baby. This is a realm vs realm vs realm game. It wasn't made to be a solo game, you can solo sure but that wasn't the intent.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:28 PM by Taln
This is a wonderful change, unfortunately what made daoc the best pvp game was both its pvp mechanics and the respect players had one another on other servers. This server is just a mess player wise and it's population is really toxic, not all of it but a great part of it. There is no fun at all for a fg to kill a solo/small man and it's not fun for the solo/small man to be rolled by a fg, if people do that it's just for the rp reward from it. So hopefully giving players more rps for not ruining solo/small man's lives will give that incentive to just keep on going and let them live.

Thanks for your amazing work, and thanks for letting us enjoy Daoc still.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:50 PM by Fordie02
The idea sounds great to help the solo fights, But is there not another way to boost a group then throwing more rp's at them? They already have gvg list for extra rps, now they will get a boost to rps for not killing. Soloers get run out of town for having a bow town, or get suspicious for meeting somewhere to have a clean fight, but 8mans have their own disc plus personal tells in disc to set up clean fights, then get rewarded for that. If there is a gvg there should also be 1v1 of small vs small. Lets just keep boosting the 8man's to get more rp's, at some point when your high enough RR that couple hundred rps doens't mean much and will just kill anyway.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:00 PM by Shamissa
As long as you gonna have a zone only for those individuals.....solos ...small man and they aren’t gonna be otw of Zerg maybe there’s no problem, if not then will be a waste of time and a lot of crying and bitching about dieing for a Zerg or 8mans as always.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:09 PM by hyshash
Fordie02 wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:50 PM
The idea sounds great to help the solo fights, But is there not another way to boost a group then throwing more rp's at them? They already have gvg list for extra rps, now they will get a boost to rps for not killing. Soloers get run out of town for having a bow town, or get suspicious for meeting somewhere to have a clean fight, but 8mans have their own disc plus personal tells in disc to set up clean fights, then get rewarded for that. If there is a gvg there should also be 1v1 of small vs small. Lets just keep boosting the 8man's to get more rp's, at some point when your high enough RR that couple hundred rps doens't mean much and will just kill anyway.

the devs implement a way by wich they try to help ppl like you and you actually compain about it bitching about 8mans? rofl
throwing more rps at 8man? by implementing this command the 8man dont get more rps but just the same amount as if they would have killed the solo/smallman more so they prolly get less because killing the solo is a 100% way to get the rps while the command will have certain ways were you wont get rps
but lets not try to create ways to make the small man/solos a bit happier because hurrrduurrrr 8man geeeetttt arrrppeeess ... pathetic
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:13 PM by Delegator
I honestly don't understand why the elitist 8v8 should coexist in the same space with others at all. Why not just give them a battleground to play in (I suggest the RVR leveling event, with its CK and the random port out to fight so that groups get spread).

Having the 8v8 in the regular frontiers just leads to all sorts of stupidity that you can't legislate around. A smallman comes across an open field fight in a task zone and adds...and their allies take a seat and let them get slaughtered. You think this system will change that?

An 8v8 is happening and a zerg is on the way to a tower and steamrolls one or both of the groups depending on the realm. You think this system will change that?

Just move the elistists to their own battleground. Problem solved. I don't believe for one second that these groups want to "flow between GVG and keep takes". And I don't like the idea of Hoinz's group now getting a prize for not rolling over me as my level 40 turns in soil at the Beno docks.

It's just nonsense. Move the 8v8 to a battleground. Problem solved.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM by Ashenspire
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:25 PM by Pogmothan
Hate to say this but you could give me negative RPS, I am still jamming said people/groups period.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:30 PM by Astaa
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.

Ladies and Gentleman, meet toxic
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:31 PM by thirian24
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.

Lmfao.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:32 PM by Hangel
Delegator wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:13 PM
I honestly don't understand why the elitist 8v8 should coexist in the same space with others at all. Why not just give them a battleground to play in (I suggest the RVR leveling event, with its CK and the random port out to fight so that groups get spread).

Having the 8v8 in the regular frontiers just leads to all sorts of stupidity that you can't legislate around. A smallman comes across an open field fight in a task zone and adds...and their allies take a seat and let them get slaughtered. You think this system will change that?

An 8v8 is happening and a zerg is on the way to a tower and steamrolls one or both of the groups depending on the realm. You think this system will change that?

Just move the elistists to their own battleground. Problem solved. I don't believe for one second that these groups want to "flow between GVG and keep takes". And I don't like the idea of Hoinz's group now getting a prize for not rolling over me as my level 40 turns in soil at the Beno docks.

It's just nonsense. Move the 8v8 to a battleground. Problem solved.

You are speaking again about gvg party but still not understand this change need for small and solo vs all FG, GVG party when added stop to fight and kill adders... is not a solution to solo stop add gvg fight.. is a way to save solo or small to get farmed from any fg or zerg around... it's so hard to understand?
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:52 PM by DJ2000
C'mon Guys.

This is not a end-all/be-all solution for everything. of course not.

It is as the Title suggests...an Attempt. Attempt to change the Player Base Behaviors towards solo/small. Not even a Start...literally just an attempt.
No more, no less.

Starting with the 8mans. If this succeeds in changing 8mans behavior...and that alone is a BIG "if", then there is HOPE ... (Yes, just hope) ... to try and stretch it to small/Duo/Solo/whatever and have it succeed there too.

The Goal of this attempt is in line with the Server guiding Goal as well: Make all play styles possible.
Currently, the (visi)solo/Duo/Small experience is miserable in general - exhausting at best.
It has not stay exactly as described, it can evolve, change and adapt, nothing is set in stone for all eternity. The Idea is clear, just the way to get there is up-in-the-air. Which is why this is merely an attempt to try and get the general means right, as to how to achieve the goal.

Success/failure hinges to 99% on the player Base.
Our player Base here on phoenix.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:00 PM by Parole
This is a tough one to solve. I am encouraged that you are trying to do something. Great work!

Perhaps consider reducing RPs 20% for 8man groups for their next 15 kills if they DO hit solo/small mans? Seems less exploitable to me. You could also make the 8man ineligible to use the 1000pt fairfight claim for 30min.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:06 PM by Kwall0311
Theyve stated multiple times that there will never be anything negative applied to killing , be it greys xping, solo, small etc. So i would stop asking for that.

Giving this option is a step in the right direction for a more respectful community, the red is dead people are stuck in a world where DAOC is still an active game with thousands of players, and dont realize that behavior just makes people stop playing. Pretty much why we almost see no visible solos/less smalls.

Would like to see this option extended to solo/smalls , which makes up most of the task coastguards. But most of those players anyway are the ones who just leech rps/fights, and I understand fighting in those zones you expect to be rolled/added, but if even 5% people change because of an option like this, its a win.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:09 PM by Ashenspire
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:30 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.

Ladies and Gentleman, meet toxic

Yeah. Playing the game how it was meant to be played is toxic.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:11 PM by Sepplord
Another concern i thought of is following Problem:

For groups to activate it they have to be Close, aka already caught the smallman otherwise they would be activating bonusRPs for enemies they would have never reached.
But at that Point the smallman usually already engages trying to get a surprise kill or tries to break speed to flee.
Either way i can't see an Engagement that is already that far changing anymore.

For a solo coming along a group it could work, but for that to have a measurable effects every groupsize need that option.l


PS: a flat RP-bonuspool or payout for having mercy (/mercy could be the command btw) is less abusable compared to a %-increase for a Set amount of kills
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:49 PM by Astaa
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:09 PM
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:30 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.

Ladies and Gentleman, meet toxic

Yeah. Playing the game how it was meant to be played is toxic.

Trying to impose your playstyle on others is toxic. Perhaps people play for more than just a desperate RP grab?

And to say the game is supposed to be "iF ItS rEd ItS dEAd oLolOL" despite the fact the GMs and devs are trying to cater for all playstyles is just utter nonsense.

Anyway, thanks again Dev team and GMs, trying new stuff out is always welcome!
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:49 PM by Slash
Black Flag will keep killing solos.
Tambourine (and others like korth, hugxyou, etc)will remain an 8man leader on korean/EU day/afternoon/evening/loggingwhenrealgroupsareonline killing solos.
Talking about behavior is a thing, ban that kind of guy... (not a reason ofc) OR open a solo zone / Make a real split of rps from number to number (2k a solo kill, 250 rp as a fg...as it should be from the beginning) More people will solo/small and less will build FG's when not needed/no fg in front.

Thanks.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:53 PM by Runental
Dont waste your time staff. You cant change the mentality of an entire server. Respect and disrespect comes from the players/community itself- regardless of how much external incentives are given.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:14 PM by Valaraukar
Hangel wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:30 PM
....

Well I think you don't understand nothing of the goal of this changes... that is give a rp bonus to party for let solo and small man to survive and enjoy a fight they can win.
The goal is to stop guild like your that run 16 man killing solo at flag, for example...


So before it was 3fg against "poor" 8man gvg. Now it's 16man against "poor" solos at flags. Next one will be a whole zerg killing gray expers in front of relic gates?

You really don't know what you are talking about. You just repeat bullshit repeated by other self centered "proh" like you that want to play Daoc by their own means and nothing else. You are the real issue of this server, please go to play any instanced arena game that will come in mind, but leave Daoc to people who wants to play Daoc as it is, not as you want it to be.

I've only asked if this change will stop the add to visi / visi fights. The answer is clearly no. So this change will do very little to improve the life of visi soloes in frontier. That's it.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:21 PM by Ashenspire
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:49 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:09 PM
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:30 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.

Ladies and Gentleman, meet toxic

Yeah. Playing the game how it was meant to be played is toxic.

Trying to impose your playstyle on others is toxic. Perhaps people play for more than just a desperate RP grab?

And to say the game is supposed to be "iF ItS rEd ItS dEAd oLolOL" despite the fact the GMs and devs are trying to cater for all playstyles is just utter nonsense.

Anyway, thanks again Dev team and GMs, trying new stuff out is always welcome!

There is no imposition of play style by the aggressor.

If you choose to leave the border keep at a disadvantage, don't cry about the choice you made because you got rolled by higher numbers.

The Phoenix devs can implement whatever changes they want. The spirit of DAoC is RvR and to kill the other realms on sight.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:29 PM by Rhox
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:21 PM
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:49 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:09 PM
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:30 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.

Ladies and Gentleman, meet toxic

Yeah. Playing the game how it was meant to be played is toxic.

Trying to impose your playstyle on others is toxic. Perhaps people play for more than just a desperate RP grab?

And to say the game is supposed to be "iF ItS rEd ItS dEAd oLolOL" despite the fact the GMs and devs are trying to cater for all playstyles is just utter nonsense.

Anyway, thanks again Dev team and GMs, trying new stuff out is always welcome!

There is no imposition of play style by the aggressor.

If you choose to leave the border keep at a disadvantage, don't cry about the choice you made because you got rolled by higher numbers.

The Phoenix devs can implement whatever changes they want. The spirit of DAoC is RvR and to kill the other realms on sight.

No... Just No.... the spirt of DAOC is not kill the other realm on sight. This is a bastardized spirt brought on by a shity player base that just wants to get points.

This is a classic server that the player base has stripped of its respect and morals cause they want points.

I get it play the game how you want. My care level has drop to 0 on this subject matter but dont call it the spirit of DAOC.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:29 PM by Psychofr3akk
bigne88 wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 12:46 PM
finally devs are taking account of this problem. I whish you the best of luck, before stealthers kills the server defenetly, you deserve a successfull server.

Sadly I gave up already. It's too painfull to see a server killed by adders and stealthers.


I could have sworn this game is billed as an RVR game in long-form is REALM VS REALM... not PVP ... or PLAYER VS PLAYER ... Stealthers are not the problem its all the whiney little folks that either don't have the patience and or skill to play stealth Class or just don't know to pick a class that fits there play style or skill period .... stop pissing and moaning because you run out and get rolled trying to play the game as it WAS and IS NOT INTENDED... I fully understand if I got out in REALM VS REALM land I can and will get rolled if I don't play right and even when I do play right .. ITS PART OF THE GAME .. GROW UP AND QUIT CRYING .. no need to fix what is not broken this server is pretty tight I love it and am glad to be here ...

Hyton RR5 Healer
LuckeyCharms RR5 Rm
BowmanJr Hunter
Phlash Skald
Stonwall Warrior
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:32 PM by Valaraukar
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:21 PM
....
There is no imposition of play style by the aggressor.

If you choose to leave the border keep at a disadvantage, don't cry about the choice you made because you got rolled by higher numbers.

The Phoenix devs can implement whatever changes they want. The spirit of DAoC is RvR and to kill the other realms on sight.

Not here it seems.... here the 8man pros want to have clean fight but will eventually come near the keeps to kill afkers or to Uppland dock to kill ppl going to deliver snows to the supply master, then they yell if someone adds their "clean" fights done in task zones, or near bridges / wall and will disengage to crossrealm fight. And all of this is permitted here, and it is fine, but that's not enough for them. They want you to play their style, or will send insults in /region (and the devs do not care about at all) or come here on the forum and write tons of bullishit about how other ppl play because it is not how they WANT to play, because you know the server is theirs. It's such a big Hypocrisy that they are getting more and more ridicolous but it seems they don't care, because they can do all they want on Phoenix and no one will put an end to it.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:46 PM by Astaa
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:21 PM
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:49 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:09 PM
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:30 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.

Ladies and Gentleman, meet toxic

Yeah. Playing the game how it was meant to be played is toxic.

Trying to impose your playstyle on others is toxic. Perhaps people play for more than just a desperate RP grab?

And to say the game is supposed to be "iF ItS rEd ItS dEAd oLolOL" despite the fact the GMs and devs are trying to cater for all playstyles is just utter nonsense.

Anyway, thanks again Dev team and GMs, trying new stuff out is always welcome!

There is no imposition of play style by the aggressor.

If you choose to leave the border keep at a disadvantage, don't cry about the choice you made because you got rolled by higher numbers.

The Phoenix devs can implement whatever changes they want. The spirit of DAoC is RvR and to kill the other realms on sight.

I didn't say don't add or zerg, I said don't impose your play style on others.

I play every part of the game on various different toons (see sig) I don't currently do 8v8 because A, it doesn't really entertain me any more and B, I don't really have the time to dedicate to it.

I choose not to add, unless it's a mincer, scout or a BD or I see an unfair fight. I don't expect others to play the same way I do but I also don't expect to be told how to play.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:45 PM by Helwyr
I saw this update and a few others via discord. I haven't been active for a few months now. I just wanted to say none of these changes are drawing me back. DAoC is meant to be a Realm vs Realm game not an x number vs x number game. Had you put all your effort into spicing up the RvR game maybe I'd come back, but games like this can't cater to everyone. So, if you want to cater to the arena/duelist crowd so be it, good luck to you, but count me out.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:11 PM by Blitze
They are trying to cater to everyone at no ones expense.

They want all types of RvR to flourish; a valiant goal!

The issue at this particular time is that big RvR ( GvG is going ok and Zerg stuff is going ok (cept mid I think)) And the stealth war is booming also! However, the problem is little RvR (smallman and especially visi-solo) are pretty crap, this is because big RvR is feeding/killing off little RvR and a negative feedback loop is forcing people to make stealths or join the Zerg, which just increases the problem!!!

(years ago the server was so popular and all RvR was fun with many people participating in every facet)
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:16 PM by Lollie
It will be interesting to see how it pans out, and also interesting to see how long it takes someone to find a way to abuse it
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:26 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Helwyr wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:45 PM
I saw this update and a few others via discord. I haven't been active for a few months now. I just wanted to say none of these changes are drawing me back. DAoC is meant to be a Realm vs Realm game not an x number vs x number game. Had you put all your effort into spicing up the RvR game maybe I'd come back, but games like this can't cater to everyone. So, if you want to cater to the arena/duelist crowd so be it, good luck to you, but count me out.

No one cares.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:34 PM by Psychofr3akk
Delegator wrote: I honestly don't understand why the elitist 8v8 should coexist in the same space with others at all. Why not just give them a battleground to play in (I suggest the RVR leveling event, with its CK and the random port out to fight so that groups get spread).

Having the 8v8 in the regular frontiers just leads to all sorts of stupidity that you can't legislate around. A smallman comes across an open field fight in a task zone and adds...and their allies take a seat and let them get slaughtered. You think this system will change that?

An 8v8 is happening and a zerg is on the way to a tower and steamrolls one or both of the groups depending on the realm. You think this system will change that?

Just move the elistists to their own battleground. Problem solved. I don't believe for one second that these groups want to "flow between GVG and keep takes". And I don't like the idea of Hoinz's group now getting a prize for not rolling over me as my level 40 turns in soil at the Beno docks.

It's just nonsense. Move the 8v8 to a battleground. Problem solved.

Wow you have no idea how this game should be played if that is what you want in a game .. TF2 battlefield and a hundred other games on STEAM and consoles might be more up your alley .. this is a big boy game if ya pee like a puppy get back on the porch
Tue 22 Dec 2020 8:10 PM by Parole
Psychofr3akk wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:34 PM
.. this is a big boy game if ya pee like a puppy get back on the porch

Too bad all the big boys are usually the biggest whiners.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 8:30 PM by thirian24
Pretty comical to see people come out of the woodwork and blow the forums/discord up anytime there is a smallman/solo QoL.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 8:37 PM by Helwyr
Blitze wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:11 PM
They are trying to cater to everyone at no ones expense.

They want all types of RvR to flourish; a valiant goal!
[...]

It's a foolish goal, most changes end up being zero sum. One playstyle gains and another loses. games are much better when they are clearly defined for who they are for, and stick to that.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 8:44 PM by Helwyr
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:26 PM
Helwyr wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:45 PM
I saw this update and a few others via discord. I haven't been active for a few months now. I just wanted to say none of these changes are drawing me back. DAoC is meant to be a Realm vs Realm game not an x number vs x number game. Had you put all your effort into spicing up the RvR game maybe I'd come back, but games like this can't cater to everyone. So, if you want to cater to the arena/duelist crowd so be it, good luck to you, but count me out.

No one cares.

I was going to leave my 2 cents and walk away but YOU cared so much that you replied and actually quoted my whole post. Since I've now replied to you my comment appears three times in this thread. While I appreciate you caring so much that you're spending time to give my opinion more attention. I really did just want to say my piece and walk away, I've got better things to do.
Tue 22 Dec 2020 8:50 PM by Astaa
I don't see why the game can't cater for everyone, there is plenty of room.

There probably isn't a lot that can be done about the people desperately scrabbling around for RPs, they will always add/zerg smaller numbers (not talking BG warfare here) but it is what it is. I honestly don't understand why they do it, it's not like they are going to improve with RPs gained, they will still be bad at DAOC. You can't stop them though and you can't force them to change play style, all the devs can do is give them an alternative.

This might work, it might not but trying things is welcome.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:12 AM by stonesouldier
Astaa wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 8:50 PM
This might work, it might not but trying things is welcome.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:32 AM by Taniquetil
Pogmothan wrote: Hate to say this but you could give me negative RPS, I am still jamming said people/groups period.

Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:14 PM
I'd gladly take a small hit to earned RPs to punish solo and small men and just kill them instead.

If people choose to willingly be at a disadvantage, that's their fault. Red is dead.

At least these two can admit that they actively go out of their way to ruin other peoples chance of a challenging fight or enjoyment of the game.

But for real, do you not like to play the game for a challenge, or fun, or let other people have fun too?

@GM’s I know you said you never do it but this is the kind of mentality that you’re up against and the kind of mentality that does seriously need to be negatively incentivised if you’re to actually see substantial change. Probably a pipedream though.

Anyway, looking forward to it. Thanks again
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:45 AM by Xyzir
Make any GVG listed group's leader run with a Banner up like the guild banners on live. Make it visible for them being listed and it will solve many problems with misunderstandings between smallies rolling up on FGs.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:43 AM by Kurbsen
will this command make it so if you claim it the solo/small cant add on your fight? flag them as something with /nohelp or something
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:17 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Taniquetil wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:32 AM
But for real, do you not like to play the game for a challenge, or fun, or let other people have fun too?

Many people play games to relax, not to be challenged.

I'm positive everyone that plays this game, plays for fun, the schism comes from people having different activities which make the game fun for them, compared to you or me or anyone else you can name. You ask if they play for fun, then immediately imply that their fun activity is not a valid one simply because it ruins someone else's fun. What makes Person A's activity more valid than Person B's?

In the end, it's a game centered around murdering other people's characters, someone on one end of that interaction is eventually going to stop having fun until they find a way to revitalize the game for themselves; for you that is soloing, for other it is zerging, and for another demographic it's this game's God-awful PvE.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:47 AM by Jingo NZ
Good on devs for trying something. My suggestion would be to keep things simpler:
    Provide a concurrent rvr task zone where solos can earn a unique rp "tick"
    Put a solo teleporter at each Dock which airdrop you to a random place in the active solo task zone
    Non solos in the task zone earn - 25% rp
    Solo zones rotate as usual
Wed 23 Dec 2020 9:03 AM by Taniquetil
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:17 AM
Taniquetil wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:32 AM
But for real, do you not like to play the game for a challenge, or fun, or let other people have fun too?

Many people play games to relax, not to be challenged.

I'm positive everyone that plays this game, plays for fun, the schism comes from people having different activities which make the game fun for them, compared to you or me or anyone else you can name. You ask if they play for fun, then immediately imply that their fun activity is not a valid one simply because it ruins someone else's fun. What makes Person A's activity more valid than Person B's?

In the end, it's a game centered around murdering other people's characters, someone on one end of that interaction is eventually going to stop having fun until they find a way to revitalize the game for themselves; for you that is soloing, for other it is zerging, and for another demographic it's this game's God-awful PvE.

Please explain to me how killing someone 8v1 is fun. Im curious
Wed 23 Dec 2020 9:05 AM by Uthred
Taniquetil wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:32 AM
@GM’s I know you said you never do it but this is the kind of mentality that you’re up against and the kind of mentality that does seriously need to be negatively incentivised if you’re to actually see substantial change. Probably a pipedream though.

We will never punish one playstyle over the other. Daoc has many different ways of playing the rvr game. Easiest for you and everyone else that is sworn to just one playstyle (be it zerging or soloing), accept the fact that there are people that play the game differently. If people like to add and play red is dead, they are more than welcome to do so. I could list a million examples where the fairfight playstyle ruins the fun for other players, so saying that adders/zergers are ruining other people's fun on purpose couldnt be more wrong.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 9:10 AM by Hangel
Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:14 PM
Hangel wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:30 PM
....

Well I think you don't understand nothing of the goal of this changes... that is give a rp bonus to party for let solo and small man to survive and enjoy a fight they can win.
The goal is to stop guild like your that run 16 man killing solo at flag, for example...


So before it was 3fg against "poor" 8man gvg. Now it's 16man against "poor" solos at flags. Next one will be a whole zerg killing gray expers in front of relic gates?

You really don't know what you are talking about. You just repeat bullshit repeated by other self centered "proh" like you that want to play Daoc by their own means and nothing else. You are the real issue of this server, please go to play any instanced arena game that will come in mind, but leave Daoc to people who wants to play Daoc as it is, not as you want it to be.

I've only asked if this change will stop the add to visi / visi fights. The answer is clearly no. So this change will do very little to improve the life of visi soloes in frontier. That's it.

Because your guild play always 2 or 3 FG, all know this... but what you didn't understand is it's not a problem for me to fight your zerg or to play solo with adder... you are focus on archer adding solo but this changes are think for fg vs solo/small. They want increase the small man and solo fight, the hidden zerg is impossible to avoid but the goal of this changes is not that....
Wed 23 Dec 2020 9:32 AM by Taniquetil
Uthred wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 9:05 AM
Taniquetil wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:32 AM
@GM’s I know you said you never do it but this is the kind of mentality that you’re up against and the kind of mentality that does seriously need to be negatively incentivised if you’re to actually see substantial change. Probably a pipedream though.

We will never punish one playstyle over the other. Daoc has many different ways of playing the rvr game. Easiest for you and everyone else that is sworn to just one playstyle (be it zerging or soloing), accept the fact that there are people that play the game differently. If people like to add and play red is dead, they are more than welcome to do so. I could list a million examples where the fairfight playstyle ruins the fun for other players, so saying that adders/zergers are ruining other people's fun on purpose couldnt be more wrong.

Yeah I was just pointing out that if these changes are aimed To encourage people to allow different play styles, then these kind of mentalities are the ones that are going to be more difficult to encourage to see substantial change. Pipedream evidently crushed 😅
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:32 AM by Valaraukar
Hangel wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 9:10 AM
Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:14 PM
Hangel wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:30 PM
....

Well I think you don't understand nothing of the goal of this changes... that is give a rp bonus to party for let solo and small man to survive and enjoy a fight they can win.
The goal is to stop guild like your that run 16 man killing solo at flag, for example...


So before it was 3fg against "poor" 8man gvg. Now it's 16man against "poor" solos at flags. Next one will be a whole zerg killing gray expers in front of relic gates?

You really don't know what you are talking about. You just repeat bullshit repeated by other self centered "proh" like you that want to play Daoc by their own means and nothing else. You are the real issue of this server, please go to play any instanced arena game that will come in mind, but leave Daoc to people who wants to play Daoc as it is, not as you want it to be.

I've only asked if this change will stop the add to visi / visi fights. The answer is clearly no. So this change will do very little to improve the life of visi soloes in frontier. That's it.

Because your guild play always 2 or 3 FG, all know this... but what you didn't understand is it's not a problem for me to fight your zerg or to play solo with adder... you are focus on archer adding solo but this changes are think for fg vs solo/small. They want increase the small man and solo fight, the hidden zerg is impossible to avoid but the goal of this changes is not that....


We play 2 or 3 fg because we are a big guild and we like to stay together, sharing our playtime. For this we get insults in chat and here (Maxistoo above all) and nothing is done by devs. I don't see insults to Polemo because he lead a bg twice than the mid one, I see people saying that he is a good leader because he has so many followers. This does not apply to us, it seems... 😂
And again, for the last time, I've just said that the main issue for solo / smallman is not the fg that occasionally rolls on you, but the constant add of stealthers (ranged one mostly) which makes impossible any "clean" solo / small fight if not in remote zones. And this change will not affect this issue at all, so it's quite useless imho.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:14 AM by Hangel
Bro I don't wanna be polemic with you but really it's not the same, Polemo drive a BG that usually fight another BG and can happen kill some FG roaming... But you are running 2 or 3 FG and add gvg party in EV or solo/small at flag...
So if you wanna play 3FG vs 1FG... ok, but if you add other FG in fight and in GVG too it's normal they stop and kill you and all the server hate your guild... but well you can kill as you like it's not a rule, but if you want to be respect you should respect other fight first...
Let them finish the inc for clear fight and add later...
And to be honest the 2 time you play in GVG played better than in 3 FG...
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:20 AM by SlowMo
I do like your attempt and efforts to adress this problem.

From my point of view, as a solo stealth, the much bigger Issue for solo play are stealth groups.

Visible 8 man can be avoided pretty reliable.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:29 AM by Valaraukar
Hangel wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:14 AM
Bro I don't wanna be polemic with you but really it's not the same, Polemo drive a BG that usually fight another BG and can happen kill some FG roaming... But you are running 2 or 3 FG and add gvg party in EV or solo/small at flag...
So if you wanna play 3FG vs 1FG... ok, but if you add other FG in fight and in GVG too it's normal they stop and kill you and all the server hate your guild... but well you can kill as you like it's not a rule, but if you want to be respect you should respect other fight first...
Let them finish the inc for clear fight and add later...
And to be honest the 2 time you play in GVG played better than in 3 FG...


Respect? To the same people who want to have a "clean" fight in task zones? So they can get rps from task, from gvg, from killing any solo / small they come in sight? And are the first to add when we fight, often crossrealm fighting? I think you are kidding me.
The main thing that misses on this server is respect. But you want it form us. Such hypocrisy again...
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:06 PM by Noashakra
I have more respect for DT than the GvG doing their "we want to 8vs8 without add, we want challenge!" on the task zone where they know people will add while farming solos and small mans.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:09 PM by Hangel
It's not our problem if you want to add GVG in anywhere... we will stop our fight and kill you

And if we wanna be full honest DT are adding every fight before they put task and flag... we play where we find other gvg party and if they are in task zone we should move there... it's not hard to understand
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:31 PM by Valaraukar
Hangel wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:09 PM
It's not our problem if you want to add GVG in anywhere... we will stop our fight and kill you

And if we wanna be full honest DT are adding every fight before they put task and flag... we play where we find other gvg party and if they are in task zone we should move there... it's not hard to understand

There was no gvg before they put flag task so what are you talking about? 😂 And if you fight gvg in task zone how do you suppose we should know that you are in "clean" fight? And, above all, why should we care about YOUR clean fights, when any gvg group roaming does not hesitate a moment to add to other non gvg fights, take task credit, kill soloes and so on. The truth is that the ones like you want your gvg fable world plus any other bonus that may come from the "normal" rvr, and you "gvg proh" are the biggest hyprocit and unpolite ppl on this server.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:48 PM by Hangel
You are right bro... you start play on this server with 2 fg and inc or add any fg before they put task, you play your guild zerg try to zerg all.. gvg or not gvg, small or solo... do you think this is better? the only problem adding gvg is for you not for us because ig u add alb and his they stop and kill you, if you add another mid fg in fight they will stop if are winning the inc too...

PS: Gvg is a sister that GM put on this game, is not a elitary system, all can use it and try to get clean fight... so if u don t like it say it to GM
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:22 PM by Blitze
Sorry for the noob question (I’m not an 8man man)

1. Are RPs awarded for losing in GvG?
If yes...
Then Let solos join the GvG and then when they lose 8v1 to the 8man they get something... a bit left field I know
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:28 PM by Kaziera
Valaraukar wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:31 PM
Hangel wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:09 PM
It's not our problem if you want to add GVG in anywhere... we will stop our fight and kill you

And if we wanna be full honest DT are adding every fight before they put task and flag... we play where we find other gvg party and if they are in task zone we should move there... it's not hard to understand

There was no gvg before they put flag task so what are you talking about? 😂 And if you fight gvg in task zone how do you suppose we should know that you are in "clean" fight? And, above all, why should we care about YOUR clean fights, when any gvg group roaming does not hesitate a moment to add to other non gvg fights, take task credit, kill soloes and so on. The truth is that the ones like you want your gvg fable world plus any other bonus that may come from the "normal" rvr, and you "gvg proh" are the biggest hyprocit and unpolite ppl on this server.


no, little zergling, the just dont care about u.....
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:04 PM by Sepplord
Hangel wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:48 PM
PS: Gvg is a sister that GM put on this game, is not a elitary system, all can use it and try to get clean fight... so if u don t like it say it to GM

Well, it is a good system put in so that groups that want Fairfights can find each other in remote areas...
Sadly most of you guys rather use it while farming in high active zones.

And sorry, If you see a GvG group only in the Taskzone, then no you shouldn't go there. You go somewhere else so that the group in the Taskzone can leave there to come to you. THATS the Intention behind the command.

But, well, let's not kid ourselves. You GvG groups aren't all roaming the taskzone and portkeeps because that's where the other GvG groups are. That's just a lame excuse to have the cake and eat it too
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:40 PM by SlowMo
if you want to protect Solos being crushed by small men/ FG give Solos an active ability which makes them immune to damage and damages every attacker for a reasonable amount :-)

I know this is far from being well thought thru, because it has to many ways of abusing it - just a quick idea and food for thoughts
Wed 23 Dec 2020 8:55 PM by LolaEbolah
Hi, friends!

I just wanted to stop by to add to this little discussion that, even though I add on your fights, and gank you while you’re xping or running to the dock, that doesn’t mean I don’t respect you.

I respect every single one of you, even those of you who call me mean names in tells. You’re all helping to keep my favorite game alive, and I love that!

For me, it’s just fun to kill (or try to kill) whoever I happen to run into out there. For every grey animist I one shot in cruachan gorge, there’s an rr11 mercenary I pick a fight with and lose gloriously. Win or lose, I’m having fun, and I hope the same for all of you!
Thu 24 Dec 2020 12:18 AM by Freudinio
Hangel wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:09 PM
It's not our problem if you want to add GVG in anywhere... we will stop our fight and kill you

And if we wanna be full honest DT are adding every fight before they put task and flag... we play where we find other gvg party and if they are in task zone we should move there... it's not hard to understand

Let me just, once again, speak plainly here.

There are no REAL 8mans on this server. There are plenty of thirsty posers though.

You were a nobody on live. You are a nobody here.

That is it.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 11:43 PM by Noashakra
Hangel wrote:
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:09 PM
It's not our problem if you want to add GVG in anywhere... we will stop our fight and kill you

And if we wanna be full honest DT are adding every fight before they put task and flag... we play where we find other gvg party and if they are in task zone we should move there... it's not hard to understand

Muuuh we farm easy rps near flags and bridges, but when those easy rp fight back, I am glad I have a get out of jail card.
It's pathetic.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 4:21 PM by soremir
If you want visi solos to stay, then reopen the PVP zone. So when we get rolled over and over by 8-mans and small-mans, we have somewhere where we can go to get at least 1 fun fight. Then we can go back to RVR. We still need to go to NF for task and ticks etc.

That's how I used it anyway. Try RVR in NF, but if its really bad and I'm just getting rolled, then port PVP and have a fun fight or two, then go back to NF to see if it's improved. Right now if you find that its bad out in RVR, you just log out or AFK, and eventually people decide not to come back.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 4:41 PM by Sepplord
That simply doesn't Work....there would be no Population to just go there and get a fight in, without people constantly being there

Solozone got destroyed by the bowtowners since they believe they are above the Rest and can make their own Rules. Similar to the 8vs8 crowd, but that playstyles is wanted and supported and works better
Sat 26 Dec 2020 5:16 PM by Blitze
Solo pvp zone worked for 1day... It was a glorious chaos of all types of solo RvR (duels, 1v2, 1v1v1, adds, etc). Great fun, lots of RPs, all different sorta classes & RRs. However, NF was emptied of ALL soloers.
Then within 3 days the zone failed and failed bad, due a few reasons; 1. lower RP rewards, 2. people enforcing melee duel circles (meaning only certain classes & RRs could succeed) & 3. The brand new shine wore off.

The solo zone would only work as an event now!

(((Solo RvR is not dueling. Dueling is a subset of solo RvR that a lot of people really enjoy (Inc. myself) when it happens naturally in RvR is awesome.)))

However, This natural dueling is happening less and less often in RvR nowadays (loads of obvious reasons for this, inc. 8mans just sweeping them all 8v1 back to the bindstone.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 5:25 PM by soremir
Yeah, I guess that just wasn't my experience with the PVP zone at all. I enjoyed it and got good fights. It was a lot of fun, maybe the most fun I've had on Phoenix.

The problem is that NF is emptying of visi soloers anyway now. It seems to me that the worst case scenario is that the PVP zone stays empty. Or even if it is bad some of the time, there will be times when you can go there and it will be good. Can it be worse than the current solo visi situation in NF? I doubt it. But if it is, it can always get turned off again I guess.

I feel that it just gives those who want solo fights options if NF is either too full or too empty to have a chance of finding a fun fight. I don't think the population problem is really a big deal. You only needed like 3-4 people in there to know that if you hunted around, you could find a good fight.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:49 PM by Noashakra
My solution would be simple :
-Reactivate solo port to the 3 solo zone
-Add a solo task
- Increase the number of porting points, some a bit outside of the zone to avoid camping
-Put some guardians like in PoC to avoid bow towns, or people camping spawns, with a reasonnable timer on it (1mn30/2mn for people in the area of the guardian to move)
-Reduce disease timer (1mn30+ is way too long) and/or give a self disease cure to everyone with 6-10s cast. It's not fun to not be able to do anything for 1mn30
-Remove the location of the kills in the solo zone
Sun 27 Dec 2020 6:49 AM by Pingyongyang
Taniquetil wrote:
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:42 AM
2. Think this is interesting as a first step, but my gut says you’d probably also need to apply a debuff the other way for consistently running over solos/small.

My rationale for that is that it would De-incentivise full groups to be roaming the coast to pick off solos or going to certain areas to actively avoid finding fair fights and as a result it would incentivise them to be running elsewhere looking for bigger fights or groups/8v8 fights. Or if that group wasn’t keen to find there is a man fights that probably run as more small man groups, both of which go some way to encouraging play style diversity on the server. Because let’s be honest as much as we can talk about it 8v1 is not really a play style. 😅

This is needed.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 3:50 AM by soremir
I just had my first success with your system on EV. A Hib 8-man ran by me, turned around, came up to my face, seemed to be tagging me and ran off. So it worked once at least!

Thanks for sparing me fellas!
Mon 28 Dec 2020 8:02 AM by Noashakra
it happened twice for me yesterday, so better than nothing
Tue 29 Dec 2020 10:32 PM by Gotmagi
Visi soloing is almost impossible in the servers current state, really bad lately This command is having no effect, never used on me anyway.
What needs to be done is something similar to what they did on live, add doppelgangers with a small rp reward and/or some quests that give xp/feathers/dust. That way people that arent grped have somewhere to go instead of just camping their own keep/bridge.
Wed 30 Dec 2020 7:03 PM by Sepplord
As a 4man who played in RvR for 20hours in the last two dass, we didn't notice it a single time being used on us.
We had a few incidents where we would have tagged If it was available for smallmen too.

Talking to one person who played fullgroup he said he would use it on every soloer/duo but it is hard to explain and convince the rest of the group, so most often enemies would haveust get run down anyways

He did have an active bonus once for a few kills though, so at least one person/fight got spared the add so it seems to be functional.


As there are basically no downsides (besides already put in work) and small upsides the change overall is still good, but to change anything substantially the command needs to be advertised more and it needs to be more clear how it works and what the associated risk actually is, otherwise Most will just go with what they know and what gives them RP directly into their pockets
Wed 30 Dec 2020 7:19 PM by Ele
I don't know how it feels on the recieving end, but at least in our group our trigger happy support players that usually jump anything they can reach with a dd charge and smites now use /tag instead. The highest number I saw when checking /tag was a bonus for the next 9 kills, so several people didn't get rolled yesterday. Might not be perfect yet, but it seems to have an impact.
Wed 30 Dec 2020 10:02 PM by Sepplord
Yeah, in another thread uthred confirmed over 600succesful uses If the command so far...

Aka. People used it AND got the Bonus afterwards

600 more chances to a good fight is quite a lot as a start.
Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:11 PM by oldmanukko
hmm, i'm sure there'd be a way to abuse this.. how about a /tag that can be shared between 2 solo'rs... to /tag each other would make them immue to other players and can not attack any other player during the duration of the /tag... perhaps, it's a 3-min "buff"? if there is no combat within 10 seconds of the /tag, the "buff" expires... once combat start, it lasts for 3-5 minutes to where no one could attack those two players and those two players could not attack anyone else? once the fight is over, then ppl can add or try to /tag themselves. unlike a duel, someone does not need to be full life. perhaps the fight can't be cancelled at all.. if it is, that player dies and the other gets the full rps for the kill... however, the fight is over and the winner can be destroyed... mumbled through that one... anyhoo...

/shrug

just a dumb thought. flame-on.
Thu 31 Dec 2020 11:00 PM by ExcretusMaximus
oldmanukko wrote:
Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:11 PM
hmm, i'm sure there'd be a way to abuse this.. how about a /tag that can be shared between 2 solo'rs... to /tag each other would make them immue to other players and can not attack any other player during the duration of the /tag... perhaps, it's a 3-min "buff"? if there is no combat within 10 seconds of the /tag, the "buff" expires... once combat start, it lasts for 3-5 minutes to where no one could attack those two players and those two players could not attack anyone else? once the fight is over, then ppl can add or try to /tag themselves. unlike a duel, someone does not need to be full life. perhaps the fight can't be cancelled at all.. if it is, that player dies and the other gets the full rps for the kill... however, the fight is over and the winner can be destroyed... mumbled through that one... anyhoo...

I don't think you understand how the command works.

1. You have to be in a full group to use it.

2. There is no immunity.
Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:13 PM by oldmanukko
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Thu 31 Dec 2020 11:00 PM
oldmanukko wrote:
Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:11 PM
hmm........
I don't think you understand how the command works.

1. You have to be in a full group to use it.

2. There is no immunity.

being a no-speed and no-stealth solo, it would be nice if a group of 2-7 had the same option to /tag as well... i would prefer not to get rolled by any of them, either.. my thought process was to simply extend the situations in which an idea like /tag could be used.

as for my over-the-top-far-into-the-future suggestion goes, it would be nice while in a 1-v-1 if a "/tag duel" would allow the fight to go uninterrupted. when 1 is dead or time expired, roll'em.

as i thought about it, the idea of two people working together could cause a problem. perhaps this would be a thing confined to the ruins/mazes/solo-portal areas.
Fri 1 Jan 2021 3:08 PM by gotwqqd
I’d like , as a soloer, to tag groups of 2-8 and reap the benefits
Fri 1 Jan 2021 5:08 PM by Fordie02
gotwqqd wrote:
Fri 1 Jan 2021 3:08 PM
I’d like , as a soloer, to tag groups of 2-8 and reap the benefits

I like this idea. you tag them and get 500-1k rps for them killing you and they get reduced 50-100 rps.
Wed 6 Jan 2021 12:41 PM by gruenesschaf
After the next pvp event, /tag will be slightly reworked. Instead of a % bonus for the next x kills an rp amount equal to killing the tagged people will be added to a personal pool and your future kills give up to 50% extra rp taken from this pool until it is exhausted.
This makes using /tag even if you intend to zerg afterwards worthwhile, right now you end up with using up a kill credit / 25% bonus for low rp kills like they happen in zerg / keep fights making it a net rp loss to use /tag even if you use up all the kill credits. This change makes it so that you never end up with a net rp loss if you use tag and use up all the accumulated pool rp.

Storing tag usage and hence allowing associated titles will then also be the case.
Wed 6 Jan 2021 1:17 PM by Sepplord
That's a really good change, hopefully that will encourage more groups to use it, as there is no "missing out" on rewards anymore
Wed 6 Jan 2021 2:10 PM by inoeth
great thank you! hopefully its noticable then
Wed 6 Jan 2021 2:31 PM by Simon73
oldmanukko wrote:
Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:13 PM
being a no-speed and no-stealth solo, it would be nice if a group of 2-7 had the same option to /tag as well... i would prefer not to get rolled by any of them, either.. my thought process was to simply extend the situations in which an idea like /tag could be used.


Tag is to allow the solo/small man not to be destroyed each time by 8man for less than 100rp each, not to favour smallman that get much more rps from killing other people (aka 400-500rp per kill if duo/trio).
Wed 6 Jan 2021 2:52 PM by Sepplord
Simon73 wrote:
Wed 6 Jan 2021 2:31 PM
Tag is to allow the solo/small man not to be destroyed each time by 8man for less than 100rp each, not to favour smallman that get much more rps from killing other people (aka 400-500rp per kill if duo/trio).

The goal is not to favor anyone who is using the tag command (even if it comes with the benefit that groups can "collect" the RP's without risking to become a sitting duck). The goal is that less people get zerged in a completely uneven fight.
For the solo it doesn't make a difference if he is killed by a fullgroup or a 4man (the fullgrp might even be more enjoyable since at least it's quick )


From the initial announcement it also seems as that will be their endgoal, probably after they have established a well working and reasonable ruleset/application-mechanic:
The initial iteration will make this command only usable while in a full group, it's likely that it will become usable for smaller group sizes (e. g. trio vs solo, 5 vs duo etc.) in future iterations.
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