Re: Relic Change

I have several questions :

What happens when a bg of 40 people takes easy in Keep lvl 10 ?

More guards will hold out against an army of animists and theurgists.

Wouldn't it be more logical to put a wall between the village and the relic ?

Will Midgar have at least one relic ?

If we keep your idea, would real keep lvl 10 for the relics (example Fensa / Arv, etc ... ) be necessary?
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Re: Relic Change

So this change could mean: (neutral standpoint)
Taking any Keeps, outside a port keep (maybe), became meaningless. No "Keep-Chain" to fulfill.
Only the 2 Relic Keeps are worth anything now (Relic).
Bigger numbers needed to achieve anything (attacking/defending).
Fewer (or none) Fights around all the other Keeps. Invading Force just wants to hit a Relic Keep as hard and fast as possible, why bother with anything else?
Was this Change to also push Siege Battles (RPs) onto the Agenda? There will most likely be 1 big one per day/Realm. Miss that one Siege and u get 0.
So expect a Relic Siege every Day/Night, no point going for anything else. Miss the Siege, miss all the RPs (defending and attacking).
Attacking open field? No. There will be not much running around anyway.
Attacking/Defending at Towers? Only if around Relic Keep (or maybe port Keep). Less Tower Fights overall.
More sitting around in Keep in general.
Relics devalue, as they cannot be defended as good as before.

Invading Forces may have an easier time to take a port Keep. The Defending Force would rather bolster a Relic Keep instead.
Invading Forces may have an easier time to take a Relic Keep, as they have to no longer waste time with other stuff before being able to go for the Relic. (Keep- /Port-Chain)
Defending Forces may not be ready to react to a sudden Relic Raid, as they can happen now at any given point.
3 Realm action may flourish, as the 2 other Main Forces will be busy either Attacking or Defending, which leaves the 3rd with an opportunistic (undefended) opportunity.

Re: Relic Change

DJ2000 wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:56 PM
So this change could mean: (neutral standpoint)
Taking any Keeps, outside a port keep (maybe), became meaningless. No "Keep-Chain" to fulfill.
Only the 2 Relic Keeps are worth anything now (Relic).
Bigger numbers needed to achieve anything (attacking/defending).
Fewer (or none) Fights around all the other Keeps. Invading Force just wants to hit a Relic Keep as hard and fast as possible, why bother with anything else?
Was this Change to also push Siege Battles (RPs) onto the Agenda? There will most likely be 1 big one per day/Realm. Miss that one Siege and u get 0.
So expect a Relic Siege every Day/Night, no point going for anything else. Miss the Siege, miss all the RPs (defending and attacking).
Attacking open field? No. There will be not much running around anyway.
Attacking/Defending at Towers? Only if around Relic Keep (or maybe port Keep). Less Tower Fights overall.
More sitting around in Keep in general.
Relics devalue, as they cannot be defended as good as before.

Invading Forces may have an easier time to take a port Keep. The Defending Force would rather bolster a Relic Keep instead.
Invading Forces may have an easier time to take a Relic Keep, as they have to no longer waste time with other stuff before being able to go for the Relic. (Keep- /Port-Chain)
Defending Forces may not be ready to react to a sudden Relic Raid, as they can happen now at any given point.
3 Realm action may flourish, as the 2 other Main Forces will be busy either Attacking or Defending, which leaves the 3rd with an opportunistic (undefended) opportunity.


sounds like you are listing contradiciting/confused arguments...
how can keeps become less meaningful, but at the same time require bigger numbers? If they are menaingless you can take them because less people will care to show up
There are no "relic keeps" anymore...any keep can have a relic (and stacking them closest to you relicwalls might not always be the best option)
Why would there suddenly only be 1siege per day? Completely lost on that reasoning? Easier relictakes = less relicattacks? huh?
Portkeeps could also become a storagepoint for relics as they are easier reached than the other outer keeps and "naturally defended" by the coastguard - for example

Re: Relic Change

Couldn't most of the situation be solved ( or at least the big game effecting part of the situation imo ) by not letting people drop the relic into the relic town behind the unbeatable guards?
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Re: Relic Change

Considering this is the first time in 2 years something has happened like this, it doesn’t warrant a massive overhaul in location of relics.

The simplest solution would be to add guards and a lord (like at a keep) at the relic temple. The relic can’t be taken from the temple till the lord is killed. That will stop a ninja attempt from a small force and require the intended large force to take a relic.

Re: Relic Change

this will generate lots of action i think it's a nice idea, even tho the classic relic defense is always a nice special show
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Re: Relic Change

Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:12 PM
sounds like you are listing contradiciting/confused arguments...
how can keeps become less meaningful, but at the same time require bigger numbers? If they are menaingless you can take them because less people will care to show up
There are no "relic keeps" anymore...any keep can have a relic (and stacking them closest to you relicwalls might not always be the best option)
Why would there suddenly only be 1siege per day? Completely lost on that reasoning? Easier relictakes = less relicattacks? huh?
Portkeeps could also become a storagepoint for relics as they are easier reached than the other outer keeps and "naturally defended" by the coastguard - for example
Not really, no.

You ask, how can keeps become less meaningful, but at the same time require bigger numbers?
- Keeps that have no Relic in them are meaningless now. Why go there losing time/element of surprise if they provide no port or relic?
- Keeps that were part of the "Opening Gate" Mechanic are meaningless now, as such a thing does not exist anymore.
- The Keeps that have still some worth (port/relic), will have your defenders in it. All of them. If you dont have enough defenders for a port keep, you simply ignore it (as both sides). As by experience, the amount of attackers needed to take a Keep should be far higher than the number of defenders to take it.
- If you lack the numbers to be an aggressor, then why would you think you could take any other enemy Keep without leaving your Keeps/relics exposed? If you are already lacking in numbers it would be detrimental to put them at the wrong place or to split them even further. Less numbers = less options.
Before this change even smaller BGs could go for some towers or Keeps without ever risking their Relics as an immediate reaction.

You said, If they are menaingless you can take them because less people will care to show up.
- i agree, i said the same that these scenarios could happen.
- meaningless for defenders to show up, could also mean meaningless for attackers to go for it (unless its a Relic keep or port keep)
- If the invaders had enough players to go for the relic, they might waste time by raiding non-port/non-relic Keeps, possibly losing the window to take the relic and/or grant the defending Force enough time to build up.

You noted, There are no "relic keeps" anymore...any keep can have a relic (and stacking them closest to you relicwalls might not always be the best option).
- a "Relic Keep" is a Keep that has a Relic in it. should be obvious. Yes, in theory it could be any Keep.

You remarked, Why would there suddenly only be 1siege per day? Completely lost on that reasoning? Easier relictakes = less relicattacks? huh?
- Raiding empty Keeps, is not a Siege. A siege would be Players on both sides.
The majority of these Sieges will be in/around Keeps with Relics. These Battles are usually not over within 15 min. In fact, these big Sieges usually take a while to be over with (looping/wiping/etc.) ~ 1h+
Unless you are playing 4+hrs per day, there will be most likely be only 1 big siege per Day for a realm (attacking or defending) in your playtime that you can take part in.
I never said it will be limited to only 1, but odds are you will not be around for the other to happen or to start/end.
Could a Force wipe on an attack to then proceed to Def against the other Force? Yes. In theory this can happen. Depends on how long these Sieges would take there could be a lot of stuff happening, but chances are you would have to play way longer than 6-8hrs to be part of most of it.
If you don't have the numbers to attack yourself? You might have to remain defending, as its rather easy to snatch a relic if the keep is undefended. Which leads me back to: raiding empty keeps is not a Siege. So you are stuck to your 1-2 points of Defense (relics) if you don't have the numbers..

You said, Portkeeps could also become a storagepoint for relics as they are easier reached than the other outer keeps and "naturally defended" by the coastguard - for example.
- Yes, but how does this correlate to anything i said? That Keeps become meaningless? If so, then It's as you said. non-port+non-relic Keeps are in general out of the picture.

My hope is that there will be supplementary changes after the test period to address some downsides of these changes, to help facilitate a more aggressive Playstyle around these scenarios, than simply hugging your keeps (which i fear will be the general playstyle for any realm that lacks numbers)

Re: Relic Change

Put a Wall between the reliquary and the village with impossibility to pass with the relic in the inventory and the problem is solved without messing up the whole BG system

and in the square it creates do not count the number of players in the rvr /u area.

#BuildtheWall !
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Re: Relic Change

DJ2000 wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 4:53 PM
[...]
Thanks for the explanantions, i get what you mean a bit better now, though i still disagree on the consensus

Your whole reasoning is based upon the claim that every tower / Keep that was raided before belonged to a bigger plan of taking enemy relics. Which i highly doubt.
Another thing is that it seems you are mostly thinking aobut balanced realms having 2relics each, not one having 4-6. Before a realm could have 5relics and still didn't have a relic in an outer-keep. That number is now only at 3.


You might be right to some degree still, because even if the endgoal wasn't always taking a relic, it probably often was in the back of peoples heads that IF it goes well then at the end the possibility to take relics should be there, while now it is more of a binary decision between "go for relic / just raid something"

Re: Relic Change

Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:06 PM
Thanks for the explanantions, i get what you mean a bit better now, though i still disagree on the consensus
The whole point of a discussion. All fair, all fine.


Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:06 PM
Your whole reasoning is based upon the claim that every tower / Keep that was raided before belonged to a bigger plan of taking enemy relics. Which i highly doubt.
I already mentioned that before this change, any smaller numbers BG could go for anything, any Towers or Keeps, there would be no immediate danger to any of your important Relics/Gates. So aggressive play (even with lower numbers) was not detrimental.
Taking a bunch of towers without any clear Goal (or a rather uninteresting keep) did not have to be a part of a bigger picture, it could have been just trying to start "something"/ stir up some action.

With this change, being the small number BG, going aggressive would leave anything worthwhile exposed to an(y) Enemy, without actually endangering any other Force.
And assuming the BG would take the same route (bunch of Towers etc.) as mentioned above, would lead to 0 benefit to your own BG, while playing aggressive.

Being Opportunistic will be the way to go. Playing aggressive is no longer.

Sepplord wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:06 PM
Another thing is that it seems you are mostly thinking aobut balanced realms having 2relics each, not one having 4-6. Before a realm could have 5relics and still didn't have a relic in an outer-keep. That number is now only at 3.
A good point.
In a balanced Server, this would never happen.
But Phoenix is not a balanced Server.(why or how is not part of the point here).

If a Realm is able to have enough Numbers to stretch itself against 2 invading Realms, while having 3 Relic-Keeps to defend, up to a point where u can even go aggressive to gain another 2 Relics, is something that would end this experiment at that very point.