Changes June 2020

Started 17 Jun 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power
- Removed Mastery of Magery

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant


Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line

EDIT:
Due to feedback not included today and under revision:
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:17 AM by Centenario
gruenesschaf wrote: General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items Good, bugfix
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range Good, bugfix
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard) Good, QoL
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 Needs testing
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication OK
- bleeds no longer break cc I would have left sleep/mezz to be broken by bleeding
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay Good, previous nerf bugfix

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it "Fixed" would have to test it in thid
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications OK
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15% OK, nerf

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds Good, nerf

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500 crit/rework down the drain?

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal Good, bump to support friar

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power OK
- Removed Mastery of Magery OK

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet Huge Nerf, would have to see the impact -> all minstrel train jumpers move to mid to play skald? or hib to play bard?

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana QoL, no longer need to cap power/piety for SC
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant OK, can just leave it on, making 42 chants mandatory huge boost for groupability
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost Strange, nerf to PvE/duel paladin would need to be 375 value, increased by chants spec/piety?

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line OK, but hib already has enough healers
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:20 AM by FunusGaming
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:17 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: - Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost

60 seconds, so paladin can no longer get some threat every 7 seconds. Can you explain where this decision comes from? Will the Heal value be 250 instead of 50 like a vehement renewal rank 1 every 60 sec?
This Paladin change really would convince me not to create my favorite class on this server.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:24 AM by gotwqqd
Buff % MoA
Does items include combined pots?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:25 AM by gruenesschaf
gotwqqd wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:24 AM
Buff % MoA
Does items include combined pots?

Yes
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:31 AM by Elelish
what purpose does the BD nerf have? mids are not exactly on the winning end in group and big fights and giving us 50% less uptime on our rupt seems very counterintuitive for the health of the server balance.

EDIT: If you want to nerf our ability to rupt the endless amount of caster alb and hib groups the better way would be to make the instant-body debuff not rupt in my opinion
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:33 AM by Mordenaar
I like these changes, especially the Paladin change. The heal chant is useless anyway.

Does the minstrel change mean it cant release the pet for demezz is BOTH the minstrel and the pet are mezzed? Think thats too far.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:35 AM by Mordenaar
I like these changes, especially the Paladin change. The heal chant is useless anyway.

Does the minstrel change mean it cant release the pet for demezz is BOTH the minstrel and the pet are mezzed? Think thats too far.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:37 AM by ddelmarle
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay
does that mean the assassin cannot spam dot each weapon swing ?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:38 AM by gruenesschaf
ddelmarle wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:37 AM
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay
does that mean the assassin cannot spam dot each weapon swing ?

That was changed ages ago already, however, that made the tick delay restart, this is now just a fix to make reapplying evenom dots before they expire not a (minor) damage loss.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:42 AM by Stynkfyst28
Please do not do this to the pally. Heal chant needs to stay how it is. Keep resist chants how they are. Why are you netfing a class literally no one plays. Its bad enough arcane will no longer affect buffs but now this. Like you are totally ruining the paladin. These changes really make me not want to play smh
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:44 AM by Stynkfyst28
Mordenaar wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:33 AM
I like these changes, especially the Paladin change. The heal chant is useless anyway.

Does the minstrel change mean it cant release the pet for demezz is BOTH the minstrel and the pet are mezzed? Think thats too far.

Heal chant is not useless if you run the heal chant last you get two ticks instead of one tick healing for over 90.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:45 AM by Sayuri
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

that mean i need to wait my lifebane is done to reapply it ?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:48 AM by gotwqqd
Sayuri wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:45 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

that mean i need to wait my lifebane is done to reapply it ?

No it doesn’t
But I’d be happy for the PA buff ....
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:48 AM by Centenario
Sayuri wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:45 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

that mean i need to wait my lifebane is done to reapply it ?

It means that if the damage applies every 5 seconds, when you reapply it you dont have to wait 5 seconds again, when the tick would have triggered in 1 second, it will still trigger in 1 second, but the total duration would be brought back to the maximum duration.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:49 AM by Ele
Interesting approach. Especially the mechanics changes are appreciated, in particular the pet LoS checks.
The changes sound all in all reasonable to me, but I have a few questions.

gruenesschaf wrote: [...] the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.
Does that mean there will be no introduction of "new" styles, like giving DW a backsnare or LA a sidestun?

gruenesschaf wrote: Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost
What's the delve of the heal chant gonna be?

gruenesschaf wrote: Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal
What's the delve of the spreadheal gonna be?

gruenesschaf wrote: Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
This means the minstrel can still use pet release to clear cc on itself, but not the pet, correct?

gruenesschaf wrote: Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line
Slight buff to wardens, good change!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:50 AM by Sayuri
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:48 AM
Sayuri wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:45 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

that mean i need to wait my lifebane is done to reapply it ?

It means that if the damage applies every 5 seconds, when you reapply it you dont have to wait 5 seconds again, when the tick would have triggered in 1 second, it will still trigger in 1 second, but the total duration would be brought back to the maximum duration.

oh ok ty
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:51 AM by Razur Ur
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Paladin:
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant

Why cannot Bard that? Endu and Resist chant playing? Or endu and speed? and why get bard interrupt by switching instruments?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:53 AM by gotwqqd
Ele wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:49 AM
Interesting approach. Especially the mechanics changes are appreciated, in particular the pet LoS checks.
The changes sound all in all reasonable to me, but I have a few questions.

gruenesschaf wrote: [...] the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.
Does that mean there will be no introduction of "new" styles, like giving DW a backsnare or LA a sidestun?

gruenesschaf wrote: Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost
What's the delve of the heal chant gonna be?

gruenesschaf wrote: Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal
What's the delve of the spreadheal gonna be?

gruenesschaf wrote: Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
This means the minstrel can still use pet release to clear cc on itself, but not the pet, correct?

gruenesschaf wrote: Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line
Slight buff to wardens, good change!
Can minstrels control pet when stunned/mezzed?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:54 AM by Sayuri
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it

for an example i m 44+20 cs what that change will do ?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:55 AM by FunusGaming
Ele wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:49 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
This means the minstrel can still use pet release to clear cc on itself, but not the pet, correct?


No, since pet release is no longer removing cc from the pet and thus pet cant hit you to remove your cc.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:56 AM by gotwqqd
Sayuri wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:54 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it

for an example i m 44+20 cs what that change will do ?
Sounds like less....but the damage is not going to be erased by your poison debuff now
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:56 AM by gotwqqd
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:55 AM
Ele wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:49 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
This means the minstrel can still use pet release to clear cc on itself, but not the pet, correct?


No, since pet release is no longer removing cc from the pet and thus pet cant hit you to remove your cc.

He’s implying pet is not cc’ed
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:57 AM by Sayuri
gotwqqd wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:56 AM
Sayuri wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:54 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it

for an example i m 44+20 cs what that change will do ?
Sounds like less....but the damage is not going to be erased by your poison debuff now

i dont PA with ws/consti debuff so i dont saw this probleme ^^
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:57 AM by FunusGaming
gotwqqd wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:56 AM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:55 AM
Ele wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:49 AM
This means the minstrel can still use pet release to clear cc on itself, but not the pet, correct?


No, since pet release is no longer removing cc from the pet and thus pet cant hit you to remove your cc.

He’s implying pet is not cc’ed

In that case: absolutely yes.

Thank you for correcting my misconception
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:02 AM by Stynkfyst28
Where is my 30 plat for a template? With this change you ruined 100% of every paladins template. We never had to go pluss to chants or go acuity/bon to power pool but now that the heal will cost power we will need those things. So you literally not only ruined our class but you ruined are templates
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:04 AM by Centenario
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:02 AM
Where is my 30 plat for a template? With this change you ruined 100% of every paladins template. We never had to go pluss to chants or go acuity/bon to power pool but now that the heal will cost power we will need those things. So you literally not only ruined our class but you ruined are templates

I was just building my paladin template yesterday and today, would need to know more asap. Mana cost, delve, etc.. cause maybe i just don't try paladin anymore
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:05 AM by Sepplord
Heavy assassin buffs, not sure that was needed...but since i havent played the stealthgame for a long time i am probably not able to make a really educated statement.

All casterpets now heavily nerfed, completely useless while being kited now. This issue was one of the few that everyone could easily understand why it shouldn't get changed, yet out of nowhere it is proposed.
Animist are hit hardest and it seems to now officially be a farmclass and not wanted to do RvR if their pets can now be completely outplayed, i kept reading expecting to see compensation buffs... wierd to go that far, i feel bad for the animists that arent incorporated into setgroups as tangler-bots.

BD-nerf also seems to be overdone, both DMG and ruppt-utility nerfed at the same time. Would think a 50%cooldown increase comes with a dmg-buff if the ruppt is the target, or just a delve-nerf if the dmg is the target. BD really doesn't have that much gping for him besides being a pain in the ass sustaining ruppt machine. Reducing that while keeping him at the bottom of the barrel in all other aspects seems unfair

Change of the resistchants is probably a good idea, especially with the allowed macroing making it too easy to abuse

Minstrelnerf is imo the long needed one, but i feel like together with all the previous nerfs it is now too much. I feel like this change is really good but they should get something else as they might really be too weak now
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:06 AM by Jamez
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer break cc
--> i think this is to OP

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
--> 1.) mentalist keeps this effect ? that would be unfair, if remove this from minstrel, remove it from mentalist too
2.) i think minstrel is used in grp to have a char which is able to deroot/demezz itself, so in my opinion it reduces the strength of the minstrel to much, making it almost useless in 8vs8, even now a days a minstrel have almost no chance vs a skald. if skald now can mezz minstrel pet --> minstrel loose every time
3.) maybe just reduce the pet level OR even better put recast time to 8-10 seconds instead of 6 seconds, so minstrel gets a punishment, that the own pet fights minstrel for 8-10 sec, instead of 6 sec


Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line
good change
[/quote]


And don´t ruin the Paladin, it is fine as it is!
--> removing Mana-Costs is okay, but the rest ?! Nah!



For BD: I think 6 sec is to hard, maybe try 5 seconds first.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:06 AM by Shadowkill
Welcome at Albland in awesome DaoCustom serv !!


GO alb/hib everybody... so fun to play RvR with 2 realms only
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:11 AM by Eoril
Poor minst Huge nerf for albion.
Give speed 5 to another character


Paladin:
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost


Noooo. Pal's refresh shouldn't be changed. This is a game historical basis.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:17 AM by Prometheus
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range

I'm not a fan of these 2 changes, mastery of the arcane helped give the classes that put points into it a nice boost, with everyone with full buffs those extra buffs were nice, now for a caster i'm not sure who would waste points into this if it's only affecting their af buff which doesn't help enough to make it worth it.

As for the pets not completing their cast when you go out of LoS, this seems like a nerf mainly to animists... now people with speed (everyone) can casually run through shrooms and be out of range or LoS before they even cast.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:19 AM by Jamez
For Minstrel:

--> Maybe remove ability, that a mezzed/rooted pet get`s demezzed/rooted when release pet

--> Add new Cast for Minstrel to deroot/demezz Pet (inst, can be used even when minstrel is mezzed/stunned):
1.) CD 30 sec (maybe for testing)
2.) This way minstrel can remove onces every 30 sec cc from pet
3.) Pet still needs to hit minstrel for demezz/deroot
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:24 AM by gruenesschaf
Really did not expect people wanting a minor hot over a controllable burst heal but oh well, if that's the thing that riles up people we can just keep the heal chant and leave endu chant to be the sole mana consumer.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:26 AM by gruenesschaf
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:05 AM
Heavy assassin buffs, not sure that was needed...but since i havent played the stealthgame for a long time i am probably not able to make a really educated statement.

May or may not need some minor adjustments further down the line. The primary intent here was to give pa a purpose or rather to give the person hitting pa an advantage over the one just doing an anytimer from stealth and to not make it have the same effect with the con debuff just consuming the entire damage anyways.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:27 AM by Angelorpheus
Shadowkill wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:06 AM
Welcome at Albland in awesome DaoCustom serv !!


GO alb/hib everybody... so fun to play RvR with 2 realms only

that is painfully true

MID needs an hard rework, 2H dmg is trash, LA is heavily nerfed, H2H never hits triple or quads

there's a lot of BDs cause is the class that makes you feel less miserable,
and now with this nerf it will be super fun -_-
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:27 AM by Moumoule
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:24 AM
Really did not expect people wanting a minor hot over a controllable burst heal but oh well, if that's the thing that riles up people we can just keep the heal chant and leave endu chant to be the sole mana consumer.

What is the value of the "controllable burst heal" ?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:33 AM by Gohanssj
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:26 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:05 AM
Heavy assassin buffs, not sure that was needed...but since i havent played the stealthgame for a long time i am probably not able to make a really educated statement.

May or may not need some minor adjustments further down the line. The primary intent here was to give pa a purpose or rather to give the person hitting pa an advantage over the one just doing an anytimer from stealth and to not make it have the same effect with the con debuff just consuming the entire damage anyways.

Should do a vote if it's contentious, I'd prefer the burst heal and non-mana end all day long, nice RvR boost. But i guess for PvE the taunt factor of the heal and constant health regen is a big factor, and end isn't an issue in PvE, as long as you don't put end on last you'll never run out of power.

So essentially the complaints will come from PvE pallys, which because pally has been a bit unused in RvR, is the majority of them
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:40 AM by Basilisk
Just delete the whole server at this point. This is turning into live now with these changes. Shits way too dumbed down with too many unnecessary changes.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM by Mandredz
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:45 AM by Blevox
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:26 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:05 AM
Heavy assassin buffs, not sure that was needed...but since i havent played the stealthgame for a long time i am probably not able to make a really educated statement.

May or may not need some minor adjustments further down the line. The primary intent here was to give pa a purpose or rather to give the person hitting pa an advantage over the one just doing an anytimer from stealth and to not make it have the same effect with the con debuff just consuming the entire damage anyways.

Crit openers broke BT, now Crit openers, with their big Dmg boost from the 100ms delay will instagib. The Anytimer opening will still be going strong.
In my opinion it is the wrong way to approach that wanted change.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:46 AM by Elelish
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

so the obvious fix would be to buff friars, like they did on live at some point. give them something extra for rvr in the heal spec line and they will be fine.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:47 AM by Blevox
Elelish wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:46 AM
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

so the obvious fix would be to buff friars, like they did on live at some point. give them something extra for rvr in the heal spec line and they will be fine.

Just fix their RA, give them maybe 1 or 2 things from cleric RA - because, tbh, Healfriar has no good RA
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:49 AM by Blevox
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


So, as things are going, this will only affect minstrel, or do we see something coming for the menty, too?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:51 AM by shukolade
Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

This will make me finally jump on the alb caster train.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:51 AM by Thaloria
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:26 AM
May or may not need some minor adjustments further down the line. The primary intent here was to give pa a purpose or rather to give the person hitting pa an advantage over the one just doing an anytimer from stealth and to not make it have the same effect with the con debuff just consuming the entire damage anyways.

The main advantage of PA is the following CD, isn't it?

I don't like the choice removal with regards to the poison. Currently I have to choose which poison to start with depending on my target. Likely to hit PA? Better start with poison or snare. Target likely to run away? Start with disease or snare. Target melee? Better start with str/con anyway. With that change str/con will always be the best choice for opening regardless of the opposition. That's bad design imo.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:53 AM by Elesdee
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

wait what?

if i want all resists in hib, ill have to run warden too ^^ dmg will decrease, but sustainability will rise. whats the deal about grabbin a friar, no matter if you run 1 or 2 clerics, depending on the setup it should be totally viable
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM by Elelish
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:47 AM
Elelish wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:46 AM
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

so the obvious fix would be to buff friars, like they did on live at some point. give them something extra for rvr in the heal spec line and they will be fine.

Just fix their RA, give them maybe 1 or 2 things from cleric RA - because, tbh, Healfriar has no good RA

agreed. that would give them a huge boost in rvr.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM by FunusGaming
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:49 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


So, as things are going, this will only affect minstrel, or do we see something coming for the menty, too?

Most likely not, since mentalist has to endure being pummeled by his pet when he releases it until charm pulses again, minstrel can just reapply on the fly. Without even losing speed as well should speed be up.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM by Gohanssj
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

friar probably does more dmg than a paladin ^^ why would you run a paladin for resist chants then complain a friar substitute would lack dmg?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:56 AM by opossum12
BD nerf is justified, the insta lifetap on a 4 sec recast is completely broken in solo. People complain there are only BDs running solo, this nerf should diversify the meta. It's actually 8 sec recast on Live, so the 6 sec seems a reasonable middle ground.

The way I understand the Minstrel nerf is that the pet can still clear cc if the pet is released but not cc'd, but the minstrel won't be able to clear his cc if his pet is mezzed? That is a huge nerf for grouping Minstrels, while Mentalists keep it? Need to remove it from mentalists too then.

Might have to consider giving Friars cure mezz then.

Why are Minstrels so crazy here but they are just OK on Live, while they have 3-4 additionnal buff songs on Live (celerity, 20% group AoM, 10% range buff song, can run all songs concurently), while they still have the pet cc clear mechanic?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:57 AM by FunusGaming
Elesdee wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:53 AM
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

wait what?

if i want all resists in hib, ill have to run warden too ^^ dmg will decrease, but sustainability will rise. whats the deal about grabbin a friar, no matter if you run 1 or 2 clerics, depending on the setup it should be totally viable

1 minstrel 1 cleric 1 friar vs
1 bard 1 druid 1 warden (no damage) vs
1 skald 1 aug 1 pac 1 shaman (4 people)
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:57 AM by Rhareg
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc

I think this is a good change. Bleed is useless in the current state, this may change then.


gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

Also a good change in my opinion. PA with con debuff always felt unrewarding, because target didn't loose any HP.


gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

Please dont kill BD! the only use of the BD is to rupt a single target, because he doesn't have any AOE (except in BA). Increasing timer by 50% is way too much, please reconsider.


gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500

Atleast a start, but smite cleric could need more help.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:59 AM by Forlornhope
Gohanssj wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

friar probably does more dmg than a paladin ^^ why would you run a paladin for resist chants then complain a friar substitute would lack dmg?

You're probably right about that. Friar does lack slam though, so you've got to decide which you'd prefer to have.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:59 AM by Mandredz
Gohanssj wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

friar probably does more dmg than a paladin ^^ why would you run a paladin for resist chants then complain a friar substitute would lack dmg?

Yes but friar have no shield/slam. Less Peel.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:00 AM by Elelish
opossum12 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:56 AM
BD nerf is justified, the insta lifetap on a 4 sec recast is completely broken in solo. People complain there are only BDs running solo, this nerf should diversify the meta. It's actually 8 sec recast on Live, so the 6 sec seems a reasonable middle ground.

The way I understand the Minstrel nerf is that the pet can still clear cc if the pet is released but not cc'd, but the minstrel won't be able to clear his cc if his pet is mezzed? That is a huge nerf for grouping Minstrels, while Mentalists keep it? Need to remove it from mentalists too then.

Might have to consider giving Friars cure mezz then.

Why are Minstrels so crazy here but they are just OK on Live, while they have 3-4 additionnal buff songs on Live (celerity, 20% group AoM, 10% range buff song, can run all songs concurently), while they still have the pet cc clear mechanic?

i disagree about BD. You will NEVER balance this game for 1on1, before BD you'd have to kill several other classes...and anyway, any decent infil/ns can easily kill BDs, so whats your point? Following your logic we'd have to take infils out of the game.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:00 AM by Blevox
Rhareg wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:57 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc

I think this is a good change. Bleed is useless in the current state, this may change then.


gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

Also a good change in my opinion. PA with con debuff always felt unrewarding, because target didn't loose any HP.


gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

Please dont kill BD! the only use of the BD is to rupt a single target, because he doesn't have any AOE (except in BA). Increasing timer by 50% is way too much, please reconsider.


gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500

Atleast a start, but smite cleric could need more help.

Please, just delete this post, reflect and try again.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:05 AM by Rhareg
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:00 AM
Please, just delete this post, reflect and try again.

"Someone else have another opinion than me, that can't be true!"
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:06 AM by Blevox
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:49 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


So, as things are going, this will only affect minstrel, or do we see something coming for the menty, too?

Most likely not, since mentalist has to endure being pummeled by his pet when he releases it until charm pulses again, minstrel can just reapply on the fly. Without even losing speed as well should speed be up.

Menty could always QC demezz pet or QC charm. Minstrel recharm is strong as is, but for demezz you'd need moc to perform like Menty QC.
Well you can't compare since they are two different classes, but their pet mechanism is similar
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:08 AM by FunusGaming
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:06 AM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:49 AM
So, as things are going, this will only affect minstrel, or do we see something coming for the menty, too?

Most likely not, since mentalist has to endure being pummeled by his pet when he releases it until charm pulses again, minstrel can just reapply on the fly. Without even losing speed as well should speed be up.

Menty could always QC demezz pet or QC charm. Minstrel recharm is strong as is, but for demezz you'd need moc to perform like Menty QC.
Well you can't compare since they are two different classes, but their pet mechanism is similar
QC removes any dex benefit though and makes spell take base cast duration. which would still mean at least getting hit twice by your pet usually... thats 20-30% hp gone easily
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:09 AM by Ormilig
Rhareg wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:57 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

Please dont kill BD! the only use of the BD is to rupt a single target, because he doesn't have any AOE (except in BA). Increasing timer by 50% is way too much, please reconsider.


- If you use a BD to only rupt one target at a time - i have some bad news for you. This nerf is strange though. Yes BDs are very strong at interrupting MULTIPLE targets but they/their pets are on the other hand very easy to get rid off compared to other stuff. It wasn't really necessary in my opinion

- Pala changes are good, you might even be able to see more than 1 pala in rvr / evening.

- Minstrel nerfs are way overdue since they got buffed pretty big - even a one-handed monkey could play it these days and still be called a "good minstrel".

-Warden Buff might be an interessting one. I wonder if you could go for a few different/new setups with this.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:09 AM by Elesdee
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:59 AM
Gohanssj wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

friar probably does more dmg than a paladin ^^ why would you run a paladin for resist chants then complain a friar substitute would lack dmg?

Yes but friar have no shield/slam. Less Peel.

whaat?! ^^

friar has a backsnare and a !! 27 !! second side snare dude..
plus high defense and 360 degree evade? (not sure about that)
plus static for emergencies..

its an awesome peeler
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:13 AM by Strikejk
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet

Paladin:
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line

1. Paladin:
Does this mean he can only run 1 chant at a time + endurance? That would be a massive nerf and quite frankly he is already rarely grouped. Please explain why this is needed as I don't see it at all. Currently you can replace a friar with a paladin but the tradeoff is that you lose heal, buffs, nearsight heal and static tempest, however the paladin could provide resists to the group and was beefier and could peel. If he can not provide resists anymore I see dark times for the paladin. As I already explained it before Albion simply does not have the group space left to group classes like the paladin especially with such low group utility. You know what I mean, this will just exclude him from the group roster which is a terrible idea.

What is the value of the group heal? Is it % based?

2. Bleeds:
200 bleed damage seems excessive, how about 100 damage per second as cap for the beginning. Bleeds need love but shouldnt be a "rofllol I just spam bleed style and autowin" ability.

3. Minstrel:
I know Minstrels are viewed as so strong but quite frankly a Minstrel without a pet is pathetic lets be honest about this. If he can't get his pet out of CC (at least necro can purge it) he will be absolutely useless in a fight besides providing speed & sos. Skald does good DPS and Bard, well, we all know why Bard is #1 pick in PvP events with cross-realm groups I doubt I have to explain this, yet nobody QQs about Bard being OP. (Before you rant, I don't say the Bard is OP, this is just to give some perspective)
If you can just CC the Minstrel Pet you not only nerf Minstrels to useless speedbots but ALL Alb groups as well. This is stupid and the worst idea on this list, sorry, if this is harsh but its true. If you want to nerf Minstrels or their Pet cause people QQ about it (I don't see them overperforming on any metric btw) then do it, but properly and not his way. This is a terrible idea.

4. Warden:
My mistake, nearsight heal is fine.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:15 AM by gruenesschaf
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:13 AM
Everyone wants everything and I'm certain wardens want nearsight too. Now the question is why does warden get his little christmas present wish fulfilled? Does hibernia lack nearsight? No. Does Hibernia lack nearsight in their group setups? No. Does a warden lack utility? No.
This is obviously one of those buffs catering to someone playing warden (dev? friend? both?) who wants to have all the nice stuff. Please do not do this (anymore). Buffs like these need valid reasons.

Please read the next 4 letters after "nearsight" in the proposal.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:21 AM by gruenesschaf
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:13 AM
1. Paladin:
Does this mean he can only run 1 chant at a time + endurance? That would be a massive nerf and quite frankly he is already rarely grouped. Please explain why this is needed as I don't see it at all. Currently you can replace a friar with a paladin but the tradeoff is that you lose heal, buffs, nearsight heal and static tempest, however the paladin could provide resists to the group and was beefier and could peel. If he can not provide resists anymore I see dark times for the paladin. As I already explained it before Albion simply does not have the group space left to group classes like the paladin especially with such low group utility. You know what I mean, this will just exclude him from the group roster which is a terrible idea.

The paladin still has the exact same chant behavior as before, however, the endurance chant now has its own chant slot and does not override and is no longer overriden by the other chants meaning you can twist the other chants as usual but will additionally have endurance up the whole time.
The resist chant cancellation is a bug fix, the chants shouldn't have had a duration in the first place but just be active while the pulse is active. A motivator behind actually doing this bug fix was curbing the macro requirement.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:21 AM by opossum12
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:15 AM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:13 AM
Everyone wants everything and I'm certain wardens want nearsight too. Now the question is why does warden get his little christmas present wish fulfilled? Does hibernia lack nearsight? No. Does Hibernia lack nearsight in their group setups? No. Does a warden lack utility? No.
This is obviously one of those buffs catering to someone playing warden (dev? friend? both?) who wants to have all the nice stuff. Please do not do this (anymore). Buffs like these need valid reasons.

Please read the next 4 letters after "nearsight" in the proposal.
Wow he really thinks the change is to give wardens nearsight?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:22 AM by Mandredz
Elesdee wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:09 AM
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:59 AM
Gohanssj wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:54 AM
friar probably does more dmg than a paladin ^^ why would you run a paladin for resist chants then complain a friar substitute would lack dmg?

Yes but friar have no shield/slam. Less Peel.

whaat?! ^^

friar has a backsnare and a !! 27 !! second side snare dude..
plus high defense and 360 degree evade? (not sure about that)
plus static for emergencies..

its an awesome peeler

Yes i'm agree about Back and slide peel. But no shield/guard if needed, no slam/numb who is important. And with 34 or more with staff you lose red resist or heal.
The problem on albion is, you have to do some choices. on mid or hib, you can play lot of setups without any big nerf. I don't say it's not hard to play on other realms. I just say it's easyier to make good setups.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:23 AM by Blevox
Rhareg wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:05 AM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:00 AM
Please, just delete this post, reflect and try again.

"Someone else have another opinion than me, that can't be true!"

Well, just because the hp bar was at 100% after pa didn't mean the enemy didn't loose HP. They lost debuff value of HP. And with that change crit style openers Dmg will get doubled at least, thanks to the delay and then the flat dmg increase hitting even harder. Unrewarding you say?
That bleed style rework is OK? Eat that frontal merc/infil style from 50DW, have the bleeds stack up and just die to the big ticks. Get mezzed for the laughs, too!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:24 AM by FunusGaming
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:21 AM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:13 AM
1. Paladin:
Does this mean he can only run 1 chant at a time + endurance? That would be a massive nerf and quite frankly he is already rarely grouped. Please explain why this is needed as I don't see it at all. Currently you can replace a friar with a paladin but the tradeoff is that you lose heal, buffs, nearsight heal and static tempest, however the paladin could provide resists to the group and was beefier and could peel. If he can not provide resists anymore I see dark times for the paladin. As I already explained it before Albion simply does not have the group space left to group classes like the paladin especially with such low group utility. You know what I mean, this will just exclude him from the group roster which is a terrible idea.

The paladin still has the exact same chant behavior as before, however, the endurance chant now has its own chant slot and does not override and is no longer overriden by the other chants meaning you can twist the other chants as usual but will additionally have endurance up the whole time.
The resist chant cancellation is a bug fix, the chants shouldn't have had a duration in the first place but just be active while the pulse is active. A motivator behind actually doing this bug fix was curbing the macro requirement.

According to the official daoc documentation, the resist chants are supposed to have a duration per pulse.
Link
So if you are saying shouldnt you mean shouldnt on phoenix ?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:27 AM by FunusGaming
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:23 AM
Rhareg wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:05 AM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:00 AM
Please, just delete this post, reflect and try again.

"Someone else have another opinion than me, that can't be true!"

Well, just because the hp bar was at 100% after pa didn't mean the enemy didn't loose HP. They lost debuff value of HP. And with that change crit style openers Dmg will get doubled at least, thanks to the delay and then the flat dmg increase hitting even harder. Unrewarding you say?
That bleed style rework is OK? Eat that frontal merc/infil style from 50DW, have the bleeds stack up and just die to the big ticks. Get mezzed for the laughs, too!

They didnt change bleed ticks though, you will only get dmg every.. 4? seconds from bleed, also it will no longer damage you with the bleed whenever you get hit by a bleed style.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:30 AM by Elelish
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:24 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:21 AM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:13 AM
1. Paladin:
Does this mean he can only run 1 chant at a time + endurance? That would be a massive nerf and quite frankly he is already rarely grouped. Please explain why this is needed as I don't see it at all. Currently you can replace a friar with a paladin but the tradeoff is that you lose heal, buffs, nearsight heal and static tempest, however the paladin could provide resists to the group and was beefier and could peel. If he can not provide resists anymore I see dark times for the paladin. As I already explained it before Albion simply does not have the group space left to group classes like the paladin especially with such low group utility. You know what I mean, this will just exclude him from the group roster which is a terrible idea.

The paladin still has the exact same chant behavior as before, however, the endurance chant now has its own chant slot and does not override and is no longer overriden by the other chants meaning you can twist the other chants as usual but will additionally have endurance up the whole time.
The resist chant cancellation is a bug fix, the chants shouldn't have had a duration in the first place but just be active while the pulse is active. A motivator behind actually doing this bug fix was curbing the macro requirement.

According to the official daoc documentation, the resist chants are supposed to have a duration per pulse.
Link
So if you are saying shouldnt you mean shouldnt on phoenix ?


Thats what i guess aswell. I think nobody will argue about it being that way on daoc since forever...saying it shouldnt do that is personal interpretation at best.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:31 AM by Strikejk
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:21 AM
The paladin still has the exact same chant behavior as before, however, the endurance chant now has its own chant slot and does not override and is no longer overriden by the other chants meaning you can twist the other chants as usual but will additionally have endurance up the whole time.
The resist chant cancellation is a bug fix, the chants shouldn't have had a duration in the first place but just be active while the pulse is active. A motivator behind actually doing this bug fix was curbing the macro requirement.

Yes I am aware he can still twist all the chants in theory. But wouldn't that make the resists in practice only last for a split second cause it is cancelled by the next chant?

Example:
I activate 4 different resist chants at the same time, all should only last for a milisecond while only the last one stays active. That is how I read your bugfix.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:34 AM by gruenesschaf
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:24 AM
According to the official daoc documentation, the resist chants are supposed to have a duration per pulse.
Link
So if you are saying shouldnt you mean shouldnt on phoenix ?

Hm, it was ages ago when we first looked into it, will have to see if I can find the source again. Anyways, if it turns out to not be the case the resist chant change may or may not fall away as the only remaining reason for it would be the macro curbing.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:39 AM by Pie172
Trying to decipher the PA/CS comment. Is it kind of a buff and a nerf?

PA/BS/BS2 get a buff on damage (does this make 2h PA on SB viable now?). But CS is capped at 60, so sneaks using mainly CS styles will see damage slightly down?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:40 AM by FunusGaming
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:34 AM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:24 AM
According to the official daoc documentation, the resist chants are supposed to have a duration per pulse.
Link
So if you are saying shouldnt you mean shouldnt on phoenix ?

Hm, it was ages ago when we first looked into it, will have to see if I can find the source again. Anyways, if it turns out to not be the case the resist chant change may or may not fall away as the only remaining reason for it would be the macro curbing.

Here is another link from allakhazam from 2003 i think.
Link

Well macro curbing is a good reason in my opinion, unpopular as it may be.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:40 AM by Elesdee
why allow macro tools at all ?
i never really understood why phoenix is granting players access to third party cheat tools.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:41 AM by FunusGaming
Pie172 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:39 AM
Trying to decipher the PA/CS comment. Is it kind of a buff and a nerf?

PA/BS/BS2 get a buff on damage (does this make 2h PA on SB viable now?). But CS is capped at 60, so sneaks using mainly CS styles will see damage slightly down?

Low CS specs will see higher dmg PAs than before, high cs specs will see lower dmg PAs than before. But combine that with the change poison applies its an overall increase to visible dmg. Although poison is slightly weaker as a result
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:42 AM by FunusGaming
Elesdee wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:40 AM
why allow macro tools at all ?
i never really understood why phoenix is granting players access to third party cheat tools.

Because in the recent MMOs macros have been delivered along with the game for user QoL and Convenience.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:43 AM by Basilisk
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:34 AM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:24 AM
According to the official daoc documentation, the resist chants are supposed to have a duration per pulse.
Link
So if you are saying shouldnt you mean shouldnt on phoenix ?

Hm, it was ages ago when we first looked into it, will have to see if I can find the source again. Anyways, if it turns out to not be the case the resist chant change may or may not fall away as the only remaining reason for it would be the macro curbing.

Then just make all resist chants one button. Stop dumbing things down please. Daoc has always been a dynamic rvr game. Stop getting rid of the dynamic aspect of it please and thanks. If you allow people to use macros then nerf something due to said macros you will run yourself in circles which is what you guys are currently doing.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:44 AM by Razur Ur
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:13 AM
3. Minstrel:
I know Minstrels are viewed as so strong but quite frankly a Minstrel without a pet is pathetic lets be honest about this. If he can't get his pet out of CC (at least necro can purge it) he will be absolutely useless in a fight besides providing speed & sos. Skald does good DPS and Bard, well, we all know why Bard is #1 pick in PvP events with cross-realm groups I doubt I have to explain this, yet nobody QQs about Bard being OP. (Before you rant, I don't say the Bard is OP, this is just to give some perspective)
If you can just CC the Minstrel Pet you not only nerf Minstrels to useless speedbots but ALL Alb groups as well. This is stupid and the worst idea on this list, sorry, if this is harsh but its true. If you want to nerf Minstrels or their Pet cause people QQ about it (I don't see them overperforming on any metric btw) then do it, but properly and not his way. This is a terrible idea.


You know why bard is first focus all time? because he cannot wear scale/chain how a minstrel and is most time only one mezzer and demezzer in a hib group!

I would even say that the bard with the weakest main cc'ler is in the game.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:44 AM by Kaziera
I like the changes, especialy warden and pala ones.

Not sure about the chants though. Its a thing against macro twist. But its a hidden pala bard and skald nerf.

Maybe increase the value a bit to make it a Decision worth considering? Although a 20 percent dmg reduce still is quite potent.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:47 AM by Eidorf
I hope this is read by the devs as some of the Paladin changes are very worrying.

Paladin:
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
I think most paladins will live with this change if (and this is super important) the duration of ALL CHANTS is increased to 8 seconds so the chosen chant to run with endurance doesn't fall off before it can be reapplied. This will allow a skilled paladin to identify which chant is needed and protect/bolster the group properly. Please also make the range of all chants 2000.

- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
A long-awaited change, thank you

- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
A great QoL change

- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60-second reuse timer and a mana cost
This change hurts PvE tanking as we use the chant to generate agro but I love the idea of an on-demand heal. My suggestion would be to lower the reuse time to 15 or 20 seconds with an appropriate delve and mana cost.

One final point that I'm sure will be controversial.

The current meta on alb is body debuffing caster groups, for the sake of group diversity and the overall good of the realm, please, please give the paladin a celerity chant, even if its a weaker version. Until running a melee group becomes a viable alternative, the Paladin will continue to be underplayed in pvp, even with the QoL changes above.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:47 AM by Blevox
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:46 AM
What about celerity on paladin?


Why not go all the way and play live?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:49 AM by Basilisk
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:47 AM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:46 AM
What about celerity on paladin?


Why not go all the way and play live?

Fuck man were getting close here haha.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:49 AM by radix
I like the Minstrel change (and it seems kinda balanced. Minstrels just need to keep their pet closer + have to rely on a 2nd demezzer in the grp - something all realms have to deal with). But the main reason why Minstreals are actually broken is still not fixed: The ability to charge up an uninterruptible instant mezz with 1500 range.

Overall good & interesting changes.

Just the Warden NS cure is absolutely unnecessary. It's a free gift, no trade-off implied. Also warden is not replacing the 2nd droid (like the friar could/should in Alb). So what is the point of that change? And why does Midgard, the realm with the weakest caster comp, still has to deal with only 1 class that can cure NS? (and no, giving it to the Shaman would not help at all, because you cant spec 20/40 heal with a Shaman).
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:50 AM by Centenario
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:31 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:21 AM
The paladin still has the exact same chant behavior as before, however, the endurance chant now has its own chant slot and does not override and is no longer overriden by the other chants meaning you can twist the other chants as usual but will additionally have endurance up the whole time.
The resist chant cancellation is a bug fix, the chants shouldn't have had a duration in the first place but just be active while the pulse is active. A motivator behind actually doing this bug fix was curbing the macro requirement.

Yes I am aware he can still twist all the chants in theory. But wouldn't that make the resists in practice only last for a split second cause it is cancelled by the next chant?

Then they should make paladin resists go on top of group resists for increased total resists, uncapped.
When against hib just use the heat resist, for mid the cold resist.
I think it shouldnt be used like it is at the moment (stacking all resists together instantaneously & for a few seconds <= too easy)
I could see this paladin rework work, meaning you choose which chant to use with a real purpose.
Removed the lazy people who loop the chant macro (cause they almost all do).

The paladin with heal procs, heal chants, mastery of healing as a body puller should stay. ^^
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:51 AM by azteq34
And what about the next minstrel's nerf? Minstrel can't charm pet and have only regen mana song?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:52 AM by Centenario
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:44 AM
You know why bard is first focus all time? because he cannot wear scale/chain how a minstrel and is most time only one mezzer and demezzer in a hib group!
I would even say that the bard with the weakest main cc'ler is in the game.

In DAoC historically, if you ask people what is OP, what you will get 50%> of the time is the Bard as an answer.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:53 AM by radix
azteq34 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:51 AM
And what about the next minstrel's nerf? Minstrel can't charm pet and have only regen mana song?

If this nerf hits you that much, you should probably not RVR at all
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:53 AM by Razur Ur
Rhareg wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:57 AM
Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

Please dont kill BD! the only use of the BD is to rupt a single target, because he doesn't have any AOE (except in BA). Increasing timer by 50% is way too much, please reconsider.

this nerf was long overdue and bd can be played well in a debuff duo and if you can't manage to rupture a single target with BD you should simply load a second one in group :-D

That a Cleric get now 1500 cast range for smite is a big joke! now have albion group one or two slot more in the group for range rupt + little bit dmg.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:54 AM by Strikejk
Accidental double post.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:55 AM by AmunRa
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items I guess this is alright, i think it would only hurt caster classes that run solo or small man that dont have a buff class with them. not sure how many casters and dumping points into it for that reason though, i never did on my casters.

- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range i love and hate this at the same time, great because animist pets have been for a long time annoying when you get hit by 30+ pets when your turn a corner and see the pets and go back and still lose 80% of your health. the part i hate is for pet charmers/ pet users out of range hurts those casting pets because they start to cast as soon as somone is in range, they dont move up closer to make sure they can get 1 cast off before the target being out of range. not sure how other feel on this but caster pets willbe useless when ti comes to chasing somone because they will nver get a cast off.

- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard) I never really used my resist chants anyways soooo lol xD

- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 again a love hate relationship, yes for the buff but seems a little much, are you saying 200 dmg per tick once stacked to max? 200 dmg per what seconds? 200 dmg per say 3-4 seconds is equivalentto a ment/bd/shaman/cabby/wizard ect dot. feel like thats a little much. a slight buff would be ok like.. just up the dmg of bleeds to say 40-60 per tick? that feels more balanced than say the 4-25 dmg per tick that bleeds have now but not as over the top as 200 dmg per tick. i feel like if im fighting somone say im a merc with 50 dual wield for the front style bleed. i can just spam that for 200 dmg per tick? go for crush stun and start using side style and just mess up everyone i encounter? 40-60 feels like a good start imo, its a decent buff that could see decent results ina fight. especially since there are bleeds that last 25 30 seconds. like 7 ticks of 50 dmg is 350 dmg thats an extra style basically of 30 seconds. and i think thats a good start to see if thats good or not enough or too much.

- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication this is good especially if bleeds get dmg buffs.
- bleeds no longer break cc this is fine aslong as bleeds arent over tuned. i feel like its good for those 8v8 groups so that you can use styles that have bleed on a target without worrying about if the target gets mezzed or rooted. ( mids can actually use axe styles now)

- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay this seems like a good change

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15% Nice change, PA has been useless for so long, hopefully this will help make PA a use ability.

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds I would go with 5 seconds first before going with 6 seconds. see how that feels. I think i understand 6 seconds, it allows people to get a cast started, but at the same time, you have classes that just spam root on casters and healers... so i dont really see why the bd lifetap should be a huge issue and needing to be 6 second recast time.

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500 very nice change, honestly not even sure why it was shorter range to begin with xD

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal honestly not sure how this would work, so it has all the bonuses of spread heal over group heal? is the range decreased? iirc spreadheal has a shorter ranger than group heal.

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power not sure why they had it xD
- Removed Mastery of Magery also not sure why they had it xD

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet nice change, needs to be applied to all classes that can charm though.

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana sounds like a nice change
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant nice change, isnt needed but very nice
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost oof to any and all solo/PvE paladins. i see the point of this, no one runs pallies in groups. so this is a nice change for them for that purpose. but i feel the first 2 changes to endu would be enough to make armsman want paladins in there rvr groups for melee trains ( polearm styles use SO MUCH ENDU!!) mercs would love the endu also. but for solo pallies and pve pallies this nerfs them kinda hard i think maybe? it really depends on the delve of the heal for solo rvr pallies. but pve pallies use the heal chant for aggro so 60 seconds of waiting to use the heal i feel would hurt pve pallies. so im not sure how this will go as a change. would have to see this in action in all 3 instances i named.

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line this is nice to get more wardens in groups but dont all of the healers of hib now have cure nearsight option now? feels like NS would be useless against hibs ( a caster realm) because they have 3 classes that have the option to have NS cure. escpecially those groups that run 3-4 healers.


All in all not bad ideas for changes. umm i am still wanting to know more info about the style changes. but i guess thats for next week.

AmunRa
Khayno
Synikle
Synra
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:57 AM by Strikejk
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:56 AM
And your point is? the only difference is that they dont cost endurance on Phoenix. Or are you trying to help proving my point? If so thank you friend

Point is they don't instantly stop after you cancel them, they last for 6s.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:58 AM by Kaziera
radix wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:49 AM
I like the Minstrel change (and it seems kinda balanced. Minstrels just need to keep their pet closer + have to rely on a 2nd demezzer in the grp - something all realms have to deal with). But the main reason why Minstreals are actually broken is still not fixed: The ability to charge up an uninterruptible instant mezz with 1500 range.

Overall good & interesting changes.

Just the Warden NS cure is absolutely unnecessary. It's a free gift, no trade-off implied. Also warden is not replacing the 2nd droid (like the friar could/should in Alb). So what is the point of that change? And why does Midgard, the realm with the weakest caster comp, still has to deal with only 1 class that can cure NS? (and no, giving it to the Shaman would not help at all, because you cant spec 20/40 heal with a Shaman).

I agree on the interrupt issue on minstrel mezz. Just make that mez reliably interuptable.

But i think with the warden change we will see a lot of setups in hib with 1 druid E.g. dhbb 4 tanks. Or dhb ment eld ench 2 tanks. Real hybrid setups are now viable in hib
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:58 AM by Freedomcall
I can say these are all pretty interesting changes.
We'll have to see how these will affect the balance of the game, but idea themselves are pretty neat.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:59 AM by Mandredz
radix wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:53 AM
azteq34 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:51 AM
And what about the next minstrel's nerf? Minstrel can't charm pet and have only regen mana song?

If this nerf hits you that much, you should probably not RVR at all

Ok. Minst was OP, but now totally useless.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:00 PM by Strikejk
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:53 AM
That a Cleric get now 1500 cast range for smite is a big joke! now have albion group one or two slot more in the group for range rupt + little bit dmg.

Cleric smite is indeed a big joke, the range changes nothing. High Mana cost, low damage, long cast time, no focus, no debuff. Nuff said.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:01 PM by FunusGaming
AmunRa wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:55 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet nice change, needs to be applied to all classes that can charm though.


Would have to then make minstrel charm also have a cast time, since it is the only class of the 3, if hunter charm is a pulse, 2 if not, classes that has none.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:02 PM by FunusGaming
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:57 AM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:56 AM
And your point is? the only difference is that they dont cost endurance on Phoenix. Or are you trying to help proving my point? If so thank you friend

Point is they don't instantly stop after you cancel them, they last for 6s.

Yes which is also what that picture confirms.

Again i am not sure if you are trying to prove or disprove that resists should have a duration just like all other chants.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:03 PM by Razur Ur
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:00 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:53 AM
That a Cleric get now 1500 cast range for smite is a big joke! now have albion group one or two slot more in the group for range rupt + little bit dmg.

Cleric smite is indeed a big joke, the range changes nothing. High Mana cost, low damage, long cast time, no focus, no debuff. Nuff said.

that reach only for rupt on range now!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:06 PM by Strikejk
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:03 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:00 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:53 AM
That a Cleric get now 1500 cast range for smite is a big joke! now have albion group one or two slot more in the group for range rupt + little bit dmg.

Cleric smite is indeed a big joke, the range changes nothing. High Mana cost, low damage, long cast time, no focus, no debuff. Nuff said.

that reach only for rupt on range now!
You do realize that smite is a freaking 3s cast right? Thats as slow as it gets, if you get rupted by that maybe reroll.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:09 PM by Razur Ur
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:06 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:03 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:00 PM
Cleric smite is indeed a big joke, the range changes nothing. High Mana cost, low damage, long cast time, no focus, no debuff. Nuff said.

that reach only for rupt on range now!
You do realize that smite is a freaking 3s cast right? Thats as slow as it gets, if you get rupted by that maybe reroll.

ok then give 1500 range with level 35 smite! and 3 sec cast time is not so slow! what have druid for rupt cast except single root where give enemy root immunity!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:10 PM by Centenario
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:03 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:00 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:53 AM
That a Cleric get now 1500 cast range for smite is a big joke! now have albion group one or two slot more in the group for range rupt + little bit dmg.

Cleric smite is indeed a big joke, the range changes nothing. High Mana cost, low damage, long cast time, no focus, no debuff. Nuff said.

that reach only for rupt on range now!
Healer has amnesy for rupt 2300 range on top of ranged stun/mezz/root on 1500 range
Shaman has bolt range (1875) and 1500 root spam
Druid has root (1500) and pet
Bard has Amnesy 2300 and instant DDs and mezzes
Warden is the only one lacking interrupt/CC as a healer.

Maybe also give cleric a 1500 range baseline 2.5sec cast root or instant 2300 range 5sec recast amnesy or something to gain an edge when facing 1v1 other/realms supports in group fights.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:11 PM by FunusGaming
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:10 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:03 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:00 PM
Cleric smite is indeed a big joke, the range changes nothing. High Mana cost, low damage, long cast time, no focus, no debuff. Nuff said.

that reach only for rupt on range now!
Healer has amnesy for rupt 2300 range on top of ranged stun/mezz/root on 1500 range
Shaman has bolt range (1875) and 1500 root spam
Druid has root (1500) and pet
Bard has Amnesy 1500and instant DDs and mezzes
Warden is the only one lacking interrupt/CC as a healer.

Maybe also give cleric a 1500 range baseline root or instant 2300 range 5sec recast amnesy or something to gain an edge when facing 1v1 other/realms supports in group fights.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:12 PM by Noashakra
Ah yeah, all the bd and ministrel crying about how those changes will kill their realms.
And no, alb tank is in a good place with the debuff AF train, so no need for celerity.

I am just worried about the bleed damages, otherwise really good changes. The pally maybe need to have a second look about everything, but overall I am feeling good about those changes.

"Bard has Amnesy 2300 and instant DDs and mezzes"

somebody didn't hear the news lol! Amnesia is 2000 since the nerf. Helloooo?

"Maybe also give cleric a 1500 range baseline 2.5sec cast root or instant 2300 range 5sec recast amnesy or something to gain an edge when facing 1v1 other/realms supports in group fights."

How about no lol?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:14 PM by Blevox
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:10 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:03 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:00 PM
Cleric smite is indeed a big joke, the range changes nothing. High Mana cost, low damage, long cast time, no focus, no debuff. Nuff said.

that reach only for rupt on range now!
Healer has amnesy for rupt 2300 range on top of ranged stun/mezz/root on 1500 range
Shaman has bolt range (1875) and 1500 root spam
Druid has root (1500) and pet
Bard has Amnesy 2300 and instant DDs and mezzes
Warden is the only one lacking interrupt/CC as a healer.

Maybe also give cleric a 1500 range baseline 2.5sec cast root or instant 2300 range 5sec recast amnesy or something to gain an edge when facing 1v1 other/realms supports in group fights.
Technically Warden has a bow
Friar has Taunt shout
Sure, give cleric root, so he can root with the cabbies/sorc/wizzies/theurgist and see who roots first? Is the baseline stun on the cleric not sufficient? Can that not rupt? Why every1 focuses on the smite? Because it does not give stun immu?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:15 PM by keen
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:24 AM
Really did not expect people wanting a minor hot over a controllable burst heal but oh well, if that's the thing that riles up people we can just keep the heal chant and leave endu chant to be the sole mana consumer.
Ppl who are unhappy will post here with a much higher propability than ppl who think this is good.
Just for the record, I like the 60s idea. Valkyries had similar mechanics, so I don't see that this is sth too much out of the daoc universe. Depends a bit on the value if it's in line, worthless or op
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:16 PM by Centenario
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:14 PM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:10 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:03 PM
that reach only for rupt on range now!
Healer has amnesy for rupt 2300 range on top of ranged stun/mezz/root on 1500 range
Shaman has bolt range (1875) and 1500 root spam
Druid has root (1500) and pet
Bard has Amnesy 2300 and instant DDs and mezzes
Warden is the only one lacking interrupt/CC as a healer.

Maybe also give cleric a 1500 range baseline 2.5sec cast root or instant 2300 range 5sec recast amnesy or something to gain an edge when facing 1v1 other/realms supports in group fights.
Technically Warden has a bow
Friar has Taunt shout
Sure, give cleric root, so he can root with the cabbies/sorc/wizzies/theurgist and see who roots first? Is the baseline stun on the cleric not sufficient? Can that not rupt? Why every1 focuses on the smite? Because it does not give stun immu?

You use the lvl 5 baseline DD or specline if you have it to rupt as cleric for mana cost interrupt.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:17 PM by Blevox
Why nobody realizes that the delay on PA/Backstab will break the game?
That is so broken, just thinking about it makes me shiver.
Do you realize what that means? Every other change mentioned, except for the bleeding, which also buffs assassin, pales in comparison to that.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:18 PM by evert
Seem like fine changes to me if we are making changes. The pally stuff maybe rethink (not sure what the problem is with healchant and you have to decide if you want to nerf the resists or not) and the bleed stuff monitored as it sounds like it could get bad.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:18 PM by Razur Ur
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:10 PM
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:03 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:00 PM
Cleric smite is indeed a big joke, the range changes nothing. High Mana cost, low damage, long cast time, no focus, no debuff. Nuff said.

that reach only for rupt on range now!
Healer has amnesy for rupt 2300 range on top of ranged stun/mezz/root on 1500 range
Shaman has bolt range (1875) and 1500 root spam
Druid has root (1500) and pet
Bard has Amnesy 2300 and instant DDs and mezzes
Warden is the only one lacking interrupt/CC as a healer.

Maybe also give cleric a 1500 range baseline 2.5sec cast root or instant 2300 range 5sec recast amnesy or something to gain an edge when facing 1v1 other/realms supports in group fights.

Haha and your sorc you forget wit all the tools? mezz, confusion, amnesia single and aoe, single root, mezzshild! sorc have so much utility that reach for two another class! and you want rly that cleric get more tools for range rupt how amnesia? wtf.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:19 PM by Blevox
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:16 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:14 PM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:10 PM
Healer has amnesy for rupt 2300 range on top of ranged stun/mezz/root on 1500 range
Shaman has bolt range (1875) and 1500 root spam
Druid has root (1500) and pet
Bard has Amnesy 2300 and instant DDs and mezzes
Warden is the only one lacking interrupt/CC as a healer.

Maybe also give cleric a 1500 range baseline 2.5sec cast root or instant 2300 range 5sec recast amnesy or something to gain an edge when facing 1v1 other/realms supports in group fights.
Technically Warden has a bow
Friar has Taunt shout
Sure, give cleric root, so he can root with the cabbies/sorc/wizzies/theurgist and see who roots first? Is the baseline stun on the cleric not sufficient? Can that not rupt? Why every1 focuses on the smite? Because it does not give stun immu?

You use the lvl 5 baseline DD to rupt as cleric for mana cost interrupt.

Should've put some big sarcasm flags in it. But ye, you sum it up nicely!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:19 PM by Bradekes
Why not, instead of removing the heal chant, just raise it's heal delve? Or add a self heal proc buff to the pally, like reaver LT proc buff?

Or even better give them an ability that heals the person they are guarding when they block for them.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:19 PM by Strikejk
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:16 PM
You use the lvl 5 baseline DD to rupt as cleric for mana cost interrupt.

Using a 3s cast to rupt that has a chance of 32.5% to get resisted and be useless, I'm pretty sure clerics have better thinks to do in a fight (heal, cure, stun..)
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:20 PM by Centenario
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:17 PM
Why nobody realizes that the delay on PA/Backstab will break the game?
That is so broken, just thinking about it makes me shiver.
Do you realize what that means? Every other change mentioned, except for the bleeding, which also buffs assassin, pales in comparison to that.

I would say that landing backstab is 10x more difficult than PA against other stealthers, cause you just spam tab/face and then PA.

Landing BS I, BS II should have a lot bigger advantage over PA.
Also PA second chain is 7sec stun... I would like to see a nerf only of PA and not of BS.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:20 PM by Blevox
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:19 PM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:16 PM
You use the lvl 5 baseline DD to rupt as cleric for mana cost interrupt.

Using a 3s cast to rupt that has a chance of 32.5% to get resisted and be useless, I'm pretty sure clerics have better thinks to do in a fight (heal, cure, stun..)

Since when do resisted spells not interrupt? Why waitig on a chance to heal, if you can proactively rupt to actually avoid having to heal?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:21 PM by Strikejk
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:17 PM
Why nobody realizes that the delay on PA/Backstab will break the game?
That is so broken, just thinking about it makes me shiver.
Do you realize what that means? Every other change mentioned, except for the bleeding, which also buffs assassin, pales in comparison to that.

Can you elaborate why that breaks the game?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:21 PM by Kaziera
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:19 PM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:16 PM
You use the lvl 5 baseline DD to rupt as cleric for mana cost interrupt.

Using a 3s cast to rupt that has a chance of 32.5% to get resisted and be useless, I'm pretty sure clerics have better thinks to do in a fight (heal, cure, stun..)

For the love of god, cleric is a supporter, not a list-caster. THEY DONT HAVE ACCESS TO THE LVL 5 SPELL!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:23 PM by Strikejk
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:20 PM
Since when do resisted spells not interrupt?
Are you trolling?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM by Lynee
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500


I'm a fan of this! Having a 1500 range stun and a 1350 range DD as follow up is a pain to play with.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM by FunusGaming
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:23 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:20 PM
Since when do resisted spells not interrupt?
Are you trolling?

He is not, if you resist a spell you are still interrupted.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM by Blevox
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:20 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:17 PM
Why nobody realizes that the delay on PA/Backstab will break the game?
That is so broken, just thinking about it makes me shiver.
Do you realize what that means? Every other change mentioned, except for the bleeding, which also buffs assassin, pales in comparison to that.

I would say that landing backstab is 10x more difficult than PA against other stealthers, cause you just spam tab/face and then PA.

Landing BS I, BS II should have a lot bigger advantage over PA.
Also PA second chain is 7sec stun... I would like to see a nerf only of PA and not of BS.

Let me put it this way:
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications

This means I can PA a target, my con debuff will reduce target hp by 450 then my PA will land for another 400 +100offhand + 100dot, dealing effectively 1050 DMG in one swing? Previously it was PA+Offhand+DOT would deal dmg and then the con debuff would tick (reducing max HP to about what PA just dealt), resulting only in 500ish dmg. This is going to be instagib party for casters.
PLUS the 100ms delayed window on the dmg, will give an opposing assassin a timframe to also hit PA, because he will not get unstealthed - dmg is delayed 100ms, so double PA each other and whoever has higher ATS lands the CD.

Can we agree it is broken? Everything about it? The whole thing of that mentioned delay.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:25 PM by Blevox
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:21 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:17 PM
Why nobody realizes that the delay on PA/Backstab will break the game?
That is so broken, just thinking about it makes me shiver.
Do you realize what that means? Every other change mentioned, except for the bleeding, which also buffs assassin, pales in comparison to that.

Can you elaborate why that breaks the game?

see above
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:26 PM by Noashakra
It's a buff, but I think you missed the part when they said the debuff was nerfed and the PA damage too...
So it's not as insane as you think...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM by FunusGaming
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:20 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:17 PM
Why nobody realizes that the delay on PA/Backstab will break the game?
That is so broken, just thinking about it makes me shiver.
Do you realize what that means? Every other change mentioned, except for the bleeding, which also buffs assassin, pales in comparison to that.

I would say that landing backstab is 10x more difficult than PA against other stealthers, cause you just spam tab/face and then PA.

Landing BS I, BS II should have a lot bigger advantage over PA.
Also PA second chain is 7sec stun... I would like to see a nerf only of PA and not of BS.

Let me put it this way:
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications

This means I can PA a target, my con debuff will reduce target hp by 450 then my PA will land for another 400 +100offhand + 100dot, dealing effectively 1050 DMG in one swing? Previously it was PA+Offhand+DOT would deal dmg and then the con debuff would tick (reducing max HP to about what PA just dealt), resulting only in 500ish dmg. This is going to be instagib party for casters.
PLUS the 100ms delayed window on the dmg, will give an opposing assassin a timframe to also hit PA, because he will not get unstealthed - dmg is delayed 100ms, so double PA each other and whoever has higher ATS lands the CD.

Can we agree it is broken? Everything about it? The whole thing of that mentioned delay.

The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM by Strikejk
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:23 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:20 PM
Since when do resisted spells not interrupt?
Are you trolling?

He is not, if you resist a spell you are still interrupted.
No. You are confusing mezz spam that doesnt stick cause of immunity timer which does interrupt with normal resists who don't. They also dont get ppl out of stealth or break speed.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:28 PM by Pigleto
Can you give us free respecs since you are changing realm abilities which are going to force us to respec and find a new spec?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:29 PM by FunusGaming
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:23 PM
Are you trolling?

He is not, if you resist a spell you are still interrupted.
No. You are confusing mezz spam that doesnt stick cause of immunity timer which does interrupt with normal resists who don't. They also dont get ppl out of stealth or break speed.

I will happily meet you somewhere in rvr to test this with you. You will get interrupted.
Resisting not unstealthing is true, because same happens when you miss melee against the stealther.
Breaking speed will happen.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:30 PM by Blevox
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:20 PM
I would say that landing backstab is 10x more difficult than PA against other stealthers, cause you just spam tab/face and then PA.

Landing BS I, BS II should have a lot bigger advantage over PA.
Also PA second chain is 7sec stun... I would like to see a nerf only of PA and not of BS.

Let me put it this way:
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications

This means I can PA a target, my con debuff will reduce target hp by 450 then my PA will land for another 400 +100offhand + 100dot, dealing effectively 1050 DMG in one swing? Previously it was PA+Offhand+DOT would deal dmg and then the con debuff would tick (reducing max HP to about what PA just dealt), resulting only in 500ish dmg. This is going to be instagib party for casters.
PLUS the 100ms delayed window on the dmg, will give an opposing assassin a timframe to also hit PA, because he will not get unstealthed - dmg is delayed 100ms, so double PA each other and whoever has higher ATS lands the CD.

Can we agree it is broken? Everything about it? The whole thing of that mentioned delay.

The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison

- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it


Expect to hit harder on PA, yes the con debuff will be lowered by 10%

Old Way:

PA 400DMG
Con debuff 400HP
400Dmg dealt

Anytimer 150DMG
Con debuff 400HP
400Dmg dealth


______
NEW Way:

PA 0dmg
Con debuff 350HP
PA 350Dmg
700Dmg dealth

Anytimer 150DMG
Con debuff 350HP
350Dmg dealt
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:31 PM by gruenesschaf
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison

Only the damage portion is delayed, not the effects of the hit. The only thing affected would be reactive heal procs that would now proc before the damage. Also the offhand hit will likely register before the con debuff.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:32 PM by Razur Ur
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:19 PM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:16 PM
You use the lvl 5 baseline DD to rupt as cleric for mana cost interrupt.

Using a 3s cast to rupt that has a chance of 32.5% to get resisted and be useless, I'm pretty sure clerics have better thinks to do in a fight (heal, cure, stun..)

You know that resist interrupt too?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:33 PM by Elelish
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:29 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM
He is not, if you resist a spell you are still interrupted.
No. You are confusing mezz spam that doesnt stick cause of immunity timer which does interrupt with normal resists who don't. They also dont get ppl out of stealth or break speed.

I will happily meet you somewhere in rvr to test this with you. You will get interrupted.
Resisting not unstealthing is true, because same happens when you miss melee against the stealther.
Breaking speed will happen.

Just yesterday i used my insta LT on a stealther who resisted and didnt get unstealthed. I cant say anything about the other stuff you guys are talking about, but resists 100% do NOT break stealth.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:34 PM by Ele
Kaziera wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:21 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:19 PM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:16 PM
You use the lvl 5 baseline DD to rupt as cleric for mana cost interrupt.

Using a 3s cast to rupt that has a chance of 32.5% to get resisted and be useless, I'm pretty sure clerics have better thinks to do in a fight (heal, cure, stun..)

For the love of god, cleric is a supporter, not a list-caster. THEY DONT HAVE ACCESS TO THE LVL 5 SPELL!
True for baseline smites, but buffclerics usually have 7 points of leftovers in smite, so they have access to the lvl 5 spec smite.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:34 PM by Noashakra
Elelish wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:33 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:29 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
No. You are confusing mezz spam that doesnt stick cause of immunity timer which does interrupt with normal resists who don't. They also dont get ppl out of stealth or break speed.

I will happily meet you somewhere in rvr to test this with you. You will get interrupted.
Resisting not unstealthing is true, because same happens when you miss melee against the stealther.
Breaking speed will happen.

Just yesterday i used my insta LT on a stealther who resisted and didnt get unstealthed. I cant say anything about the other stuff you guys are talking about, but resists 100% do NOT break stealth.

yes but resisted amnesia interupts.
stealth =/= cast
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:34 PM by Blevox
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:31 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison

Only the damage portion is delayed, not the effects of the hit. The only thing affected would be reactive heal procs that would now proc before the damage. Also the offhand hit will likely register before the con debuff.

So, you say two handed SB goes like:

PA Bleed Dmg trick
** Healproc on enemy going off, healing that puny bleed tick
Con Debuff 350HP
2h PA 650Dmg
** Crit 217Dmg

1217Dmg effectively?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:34 PM by Pigleto
I don't know where my previous post went but I was looking for a compromise on the mastery of the arcane. This is really going to affect my hunter. This will definitely make rangers top tier as they will have strength and dex/quick. Could you do one of two things? Could you bring back the 72 stat buff charges from the feather items? I'm going to need more strength/con if I'm going to melee on my hunter. Or could you at least allow us to spec up to mastery of arcane 5 maximum?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:34 PM by FunusGaming
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:30 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM
Let me put it this way:
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications

This means I can PA a target, my con debuff will reduce target hp by 450 then my PA will land for another 400 +100offhand + 100dot, dealing effectively 1050 DMG in one swing? Previously it was PA+Offhand+DOT would deal dmg and then the con debuff would tick (reducing max HP to about what PA just dealt), resulting only in 500ish dmg. This is going to be instagib party for casters.
PLUS the 100ms delayed window on the dmg, will give an opposing assassin a timframe to also hit PA, because he will not get unstealthed - dmg is delayed 100ms, so double PA each other and whoever has higher ATS lands the CD.

Can we agree it is broken? Everything about it? The whole thing of that mentioned delay.

The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison

- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it


Expect to hit harder on PA, yes the con debuff will be lowered by 10%

Old Way:

PA 400DMG
Con debuff 400HP
400Dmg dealt

Anytimer 150DMG
Con debuff 400HP
400Dmg dealth


______
NEW Way:

PA 0dmg
Con debuff 350HP
PA 350Dmg
700Dmg dealth

Anytimer 150DMG
Con debuff 350HP
350Dmg dealt

Yes which is what they are going for, to make it more attractive over anytimers.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:39 PM by Elelish
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:34 PM
Elelish wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:33 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:29 PM
I will happily meet you somewhere in rvr to test this with you. You will get interrupted.
Resisting not unstealthing is true, because same happens when you miss melee against the stealther.
Breaking speed will happen.

Just yesterday i used my insta LT on a stealther who resisted and didnt get unstealthed. I cant say anything about the other stuff you guys are talking about, but resists 100% do NOT break stealth.

yes but resisted amnesia interupts.
stealth =/= cast

Did you edit your post? I could swear you said something else when i clicked that reply button. i might have misread tho, i thought you said that resists will unstealth people, which would have been wrong. But yea, might have been a misread on my part.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:39 PM by Razur Ur
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:24 PM
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:23 PM
Are you trolling?

He is not, if you resist a spell you are still interrupted.
No. You are confusing mezz spam that doesnt stick cause of immunity timer which does interrupt with normal resists who don't. They also dont get ppl out of stealth or break speed.

Mezz is not a cast dd! and my insta dd on champion rupted all time also with resist! all cast dd´s rupting also when target resist the dd!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:39 PM by Siouxsie
General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items

I don't like this change. Many Hunters need MoA to buff up the stats that are missing due to missing points
in other areas. Please reconsider this.


- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range

Nice, this is long overdue especially for Animist pets.

- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)

I don't agree with this change. You're supposed to be able to twist the songs. The songs last for 6 seconds after they get changed/cancelled. Please do not make this change.

- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

This is a good change.

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

I disagree with this change. Bonedancers already had their dark pets nerfed in a major way, and the insta lifetap is their only really good tool for interrupting.

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500

Totally unnecessary. Clerics aren't supposed to be long ranged damage casters; they're supposed to heal. Smite spec range isn't supposed to be all that useful to the class anyway.

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal

I think this gives too much healing utility.

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power
- Removed Mastery of Magery

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet

This is long overdue and has been needed since day 1. Thanks!

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line
[/quote]

Can't really comment on Paladin and Warden, I don't play them but.. Warden freebie nearsight heal? Means rangers now have a higher change to get de-nearsighted.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:40 PM by Blevox
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:34 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:30 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison

- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it


Expect to hit harder on PA, yes the con debuff will be lowered by 10%

Old Way:

PA 400DMG
Con debuff 400HP
400Dmg dealt

Anytimer 150DMG
Con debuff 400HP
400Dmg dealth


______
NEW Way:

PA 0dmg
Con debuff 350HP
PA 350Dmg
700Dmg dealth

Anytimer 150DMG
Con debuff 350HP
350Dmg dealt

Yes which is what they are going for, to make it more attractive over anytimers.

But to not go overboard completely. That needs to NERF Crit opener DMG HEAVILY. The con debuff nerfs the anytimer opening (still hitting hard) but buff the Crit opener to be super SUPER strong. Even if you play an Assassin class, do you feel weak right now? Imagine being so far up the foodchain that you can now kill any fulltank easily, for which you had to use some brains earlier.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:41 PM by Noashakra
Elelish wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:39 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:34 PM
Elelish wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:33 PM
Just yesterday i used my insta LT on a stealther who resisted and didnt get unstealthed. I cant say anything about the other stuff you guys are talking about, but resists 100% do NOT break stealth.

yes but resisted amnesia interupts.
stealth =/= cast

Did you edit your post? I could swear you said something else when i clicked that reply button. i might have misread tho, i thought you said that resists will unstealth people, which would have been wrong. But yea, might have been a misread on my part.

I didn't
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:44 PM by Blevox
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:39 PM
Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500

Totally unnecessary. Clerics aren't supposed to be long ranged damage casters; they're supposed to heal. Smite spec range isn't supposed to be all that useful to the class anyway.


Every Cleric technically get a low, next to no power consumption, 1500 range rupt spell. So their range is buffed now, by 150. Might not be much on paper, but you will feel it out there on the battlefield.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:44 PM by FunusGaming
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:40 PM
text

Yes, but they also nerfed the way the poisons get applied, its no longer free dmg add per weapon swap. So theres also that. We will have to see how it plays out. I am cautiously optimistic for stealthers. But still wary that the whole package might overdo it like you.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:46 PM by Centenario
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:44 PM
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:39 PM
Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500

Totally unnecessary. Clerics aren't supposed to be long ranged damage casters; they're supposed to heal. Smite spec range isn't supposed to be all that useful to the class anyway.


Every Cleric technically get a low, next to no power consumption, 1500 range rupt spell. So their range is buffed now, by 150. Might not be much on paper, but you will feel it out there on the battlefield.

That's what every other healer except warden have been doing... Why talk about damage caster, its just a support tool for interrupts, yet the cleric is still very undertuned compared with its counterparts who have a lot better tools.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:46 PM by Pigleto
I think if you are going to nerf Bonedancer's lifetap then you need to compensate that with the Spirit DD nuke for baseline in Suppression. When they nerfed it on live to 8 seconds they also compensated for giving them a baseline nuke. And I don't see how this would be a deal breaker giving it to RMs and SMs either.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:46 PM by Dagerin
Mandredz wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 AM
The burst heal is not a problem i think. Nerf resists is.

If you do this, lot of grp will play with no resist fire/cold on albion.

Add a friar in grp? Yes why not but you'll have only 1 cleric. Because 2 cleric 1 friar you'll miss damages.

On the other realm you always have 2 droods or 2 healers + resists.

You are aware that only mid gets to naturally run both sets of resists in a normal group setup right?

Alb and HIb both need to work in a warden or friar and "lose damage" in order to get those extra resists as well.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:47 PM by sav
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items - okay
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range - very good
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard) - as everyone is just using AHK to play all the chants at once this nerf is good
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 - lets see how the effect wll be
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication - lets see how the effect wll be
- bleeds no longer break cc - not sure about this one. the bleed styles / chains had their advantages, but therefor also the bleeding disadvantage. now the disadvantage is just removed without touching the advantages. lets see how the effect will be
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay - very good

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it - lets see how the impact on the damage will be
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications lets see how the impact on the damage will be
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15% lets see how the impact on the damage will be

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds why?

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500 okay

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal why?

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power why?
- Removed Mastery of Magery why?

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet a nerf but a good one

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana good
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost why?

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line why?

"now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications" can you also delay the recalculation of the TPs a char have when switching the weapons to not loose 1-x% tp everytime you switch your weapon just because you put +TP or +Con on the weapons or are using a shield for example from the Galla Merchant with +TP on it - even if you have the same amount on the other item you are switching on
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:47 PM by Forlornhope
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:31 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison

Only the damage portion is delayed, not the effects of the hit. The only thing affected would be reactive heal procs that would now proc before the damage. Also the offhand hit will likely register before the con debuff.

Would that mean that the proc that goes off before the damage will essentially be useless? Since the heal goes off and you're technically at full hp?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:48 PM by Blevox
Forlornhope wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:47 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:31 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison

Only the damage portion is delayed, not the effects of the hit. The only thing affected would be reactive heal procs that would now proc before the damage. Also the offhand hit will likely register before the con debuff.

Would that mean that the proc that goes off before the damage will essentially be useless? Since the heal goes off and you're technically at full hp?

Yes
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:49 PM by Centenario
Forlornhope wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:47 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:31 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:27 PM
The not unstealthing part is something that should be considered.
You are not taking into account the NERF on high end PA dmg and also the NERF on the con debuff poison

Only the damage portion is delayed, not the effects of the hit. The only thing affected would be reactive heal procs that would now proc before the damage. Also the offhand hit will likely register before the con debuff.

Would that mean that the proc that goes off before the damage will essentially be useless? Since the heal goes off and you're technically at full hp?

Would be a buff to mhb reactives (absorb).
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:51 PM by Basilisk
evert wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:18 PM
Seem like fine changes to me if we are making changes. The pally stuff maybe rethink (not sure what the problem is with healchant and you have to decide if you want to nerf the resists or not) and the bleed stuff monitored as it sounds like it could get bad.

A heal on 60 second RUT would be a heal nerf as well as aggro nerf for pve. Heal chants from pally are not affected by disease, and can be boosted with mastery of healing and wild healing. You’d get more overall healing from the current chant. The new heal would more than likely be affected by disease and have a lesser chance at crit healing since it’d be on a 1 min timer. This wouldn’t be a good change imo having a pally myself. Same with resist chants. They don’t even last for 6 seconds currently if you watch timer.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:51 PM by Strikejk
Interesting, just tested it.
Only spells that would rupt if they hit also rupt when they get resisted. But spells that would not rupt (Abs debuff on reaver) when they hit also do not rupt when they get resisted, which lead to my confusion of resisted not rupting. Very interesting, so basically we where both wrong. Resisted spells don't interrupt in general (and thus all), its only that for spells that do rupt it does not matter if they hit or get resisted.

But in this case you were right, for the cleric smite it doesn't matter if it gets resisted indeed.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:52 PM by Forlornhope
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:48 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:47 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:31 PM
Only the damage portion is delayed, not the effects of the hit. The only thing affected would be reactive heal procs that would now proc before the damage. Also the offhand hit will likely register before the con debuff.

Would that mean that the proc that goes off before the damage will essentially be useless? Since the heal goes off and you're technically at full hp?

Yes

well, that's stupid as hell lol. Why would they even propose this?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:55 PM by Centenario
Forlornhope wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:52 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:48 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:47 PM
Would that mean that the proc that goes off before the damage will essentially be useless? Since the heal goes off and you're technically at full hp?
Yes
well, that's stupid as hell lol. Why would they even propose this?
Lol...fallacies
This is not what is proposed. The purpose is to make sure that the debuff is taken into account before the damage, so that the damage doesnt get eaten up by the debuff.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:06 PM by Noashakra
Also, as it works now, the heal proc is already mostly useless after a PA with WS/C poison (except if the poison is resisted).
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:07 PM by Demaischler
so that bd Darkness and Suppression got nerfed, can we atleast get a Buff to Bone Army spec and get an 83 damage AoE dot like cabba and menta? instead of 61 damage that needs 47 points instead of 46...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:12 PM by FunusGaming
Demaischler wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:07 PM
so that bd Darkness and Suppression got nerfed, can we atleast get a Buff to Bone Army spec and get an 83 damage AoE dot like cabba and menta? instead of 61 damage that needs 47 points instead of 46...

No, you are not shaman.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:16 PM by Cerou Calaquendi
Wow im really in the Animist torture quantology season 5 epido 9 short before the Season End !! Im really curios about next weeks Episode !
I dont know where to start....

Short Story: I shine in BURST not like every other caster in this game... nuke nuke nuke nuke huge range, hard cc, castspeed... NO NO NO i do:
1x Bomber + 1x Lifetab same time incoming dmg, sending more then 1-2 bombers is to slow! Understood?! (target will die soon or next target..)

Nr.1 Major Nerf HP INCREASE, hits bursters most no ?!
Nr2. Major Nerf Removal of my Crit capabilites seriously most brutal nerf! i could cry all day. Why does it hit Animist again harder then other caster ?
Do u still dont understand? I dont deal consistent dmg, i do 2 (80%) or 3 (20%) spells, i dont have time for more and i have only 1 burst before the
healer realise. 2 Spells 50% crit chance to have a crit...I need those crits, that is supporting the burst spike. i have 10 targets in a row
with no crits cause i feel its calcuating per target which is not true i suppose, but i literally have no crits with crit 5 22% honestly!
Nr3. Major Nerf Is the present one pet will not cast if u run fast enough out of range/los, combined with the 2sec paralyze delay on tanglers if the target has already
root immunity is one kind of a story ! wow! Do u have any idea how hard it is to get out some of these 5sec castime shrooms at the right spot infight
to kite/push, this is already really diffcicult because u can fuck up the hole fight so easily for your group. no they just out kite every effort i made in the
small windows i get. its massive power cost aswell! I will have to shroom much more much deeper in their backline. Is it now just a waste of time to
shroom at all and DEVS how do u feel seeing no more shroom other then in keeps/Bridges, is that like casting a smile on your face ???

You make my life such a misery really, consistently! As if its easy to find any group in rvr besides zerg as Animist... why do u make it so hard for us ?? QQ
Even one of these changes is really hard, but all of these... i dont know what to say and why you are keep doing this!? Alb is sooo strong and you keep nerfing the OTHER realms. Its soo insanely obvious where the Devs with the biggest voice are playing, i feel sorry for the God of Balance who is suffering almost as hard as i do i believe.

Minstrel Nerf: About time!
Pala: I hope its buff and im happy for it
Cleric: sounds not like a big buff, id like to see more offensiv clerics..
Assasins: Burst increase, sounds fun.. idc
Warden Love OOHH diserved
BD Nerf: I dont feel that BD nerf is needed, again u just make it easier for the Albs... Every realm needs strong stuff (same story with amnesia) let them be the annoying pain they are, they dont have much else where they shine!
I hope you will find some curage and changes stuff.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:23 PM by keen
My thoughts on this for the most intrusive changes. Think the rest is fine and just a matter of minor tweeking if at all.
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range
could fix some imbalances with ani caster grps. Has a potential to put them in line with other setups.
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)

if macros are the only concern why not make an all in one resist aura with values of the single ones. Everyone is running those macros anyway.
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
this is an enormous buff to pa that can easily be op.
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%
this whole pa+ bleeding rescaling can be tricky in duels Vs assassins and especially infis due to dual shadow and high spec pointa. Infis have a lot of spec points and with new C's scaling they can just lower cs and gain better scaling per specpoint until 60cs and benefit from bleedings stacking up to 200+ s/c debuff hitting after pa. This could easily be op. I think what we will see is assassin's going lower in cs and benefiting from this change + specing higher in weapons. Overall this will make them stronger not weaker. Personally I don't like stealthier buffs at all, they are already over represented since they are just that good already
Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds
DMG could be scaled so BDS don't lose DPS. Long time needed adjustment.

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
let's see how this works out. Not sure why mentas are excluded here. Also sounds like a much harder nerf than it actually is as long as mechanics are just changed in case pet gets cc'ed. I can still demezz my pet and deroot it by releasing and someone hits it out of cc.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:32 PM by WildWilbur
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

Good changes, except that there is close to no reason to run 50 LA on a SB now. Especially with Aurora Borealis missing 50% of the time...

Oh, can we SBs have Bludgeon pretty plz? *bambieyes*
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:35 PM by Ashenspire
Twisting is what makes a Paladin. Without the resist chants you will effectively ruin the class for group RvR. There would be 0 reason to take them, and a friar would become a requirement for groups. Taking flexibility out of Albion is a bad move for realm balance, they're already the realm with the most required classes for a group comp.

The heal chant is fantastic for pve for threat purposes as well as prolonged solo combat in pvp. If the new 1 minute heal isn't at the very least 460 health to everyone, this isn't a good change.

If you're going to take away things that define the class, you need to give them something in return. Like, I don't know, celerity on their damage add chant. Which they should've had from the jump (and throw wardens a bone in that regard as well).
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:36 PM by Valaraukar
Soooo here we are again with a BD nerf

Why do you hate this class so much? They have virtually disappeared from a good rvr party setup since the darkness nerf. Now you nerf again the suppression line. What else? No nerf for bone army? Ah... it's just quite useless itself so don't need to bother.

Can you explain WHY the 6 secs delay for LT? Who whined about it? What reason do you have to completely remove a class from rvr and leave it only for pve farming (unless you plan to nerf it again also in PvE, after the Wild Minion crit nerf)...

BDs are now essentially TWF bots in rvr or AOE Dot leecher in rvr Battlegroups.... You totally ruined such a beautiful class (already hugely nerfed on this server due to an awful pet command system)

Bah, good job!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:38 PM by jwalker
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items

- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

- Nerf to solo hybrids, caster and Hunter/Ranger by nerfing MoA - was that really necessary?

- you already nerfed the buff to archery and now you further nerf hybrid specs that used high level of MoA to cap yellow buffs + additional stats from pots while having okish melee and bow. These specs suffer now as well and force you into full melee. Further, assassins are heavily buffed so hybrids and archer will underperform

- infiltrator love this change with dual shadows totally overperforming as a style. 4x dual shadows did before around 14x13 (182) damage now it will deal 4x11x13 (572) damage

- PA change will actually BUFF the PA of low CS user (the typical high duel wield, high LA, CD specs with 21-34 CS) as the debuff will apply after the con/str debuff AND the base damage is buffed . While I like that PA will matter more I feel like we are buffing the wrong specs (low CS compared to high CS spec).
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:41 PM by jwalker
WildWilbur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:32 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

Good changes, except that there is close to no reason to run 50 LA on a SB now. Especially with Aurora Borealis missing 50% of the time...

Oh, can we SBs have Bludgeon pretty plz? *bambieyes*

Assassin is the last class that should complain about these proposals. If anything, you should complain how much more the infiltrator is buffed via dual shadows compared to your class. Exactly the high LA low CS assassins are the winner of these changes as PA does more base damage (more damage on lower specs, damages after con/str debuff)
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:59 PM by keen
Valaraukar wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:36 PM
Soooo here we are again with a BD nerf

Why do you hate this class so much? They have virtually disappeared from a good rvr party setup since the darkness nerf.
BD is in a lot of 8v8 grps I see running
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:00 PM by Demaischler
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:12 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:07 PM
so that bd Darkness and Suppression got nerfed, can we atleast get a Buff to Bone Army spec and get an 83 damage AoE dot like cabba and menta? instead of 61 damage that needs 47 points instead of 46...

No, you are not shaman.

Yes, thats what im saying, im not a shaman, im a Bonedancer, and it just makes no sense that my AoE dot has lower Damage with more points in this Specline than any other AoE dot. And Just that u know, Albion has 2 Classes with high value AoE dots, Cabba with 83dmg and Wizard with the highest AoE dot in DAoC with 87 (yes i know he needs 49 points in Earth ) but again, why should the BD only get 61 dmg with 47 points ( thats 47 skillpoints more than cabba/menta/shaman) if others get 83 with only 46 points in their specline, even the necromancer has an PBAoE dot with 79 for 44 points in his specline.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:04 PM by Valaraukar
Demaischler wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:00 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:12 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:07 PM
so that bd Darkness and Suppression got nerfed, can we atleast get a Buff to Bone Army spec and get an 83 damage AoE dot like cabba and menta? instead of 61 damage that needs 47 points instead of 46...

No, you are not shaman.

Yes, thats what im saying, im not a shaman, im a Bonedancer, and it just makes no sense that my AoE dot has lower Damage with more points in this Specline than any other AoE dot. And Just that u know, Albion has 2 Classes with high value AoE dots, Cabba with 83dmg and Wizard with the highest AoE dot in DAoC with 87 (yes i know he needs 49 points in Earth ) but again, why should the BD only get 61 dmg with 47 points ( thats 47 skillpoints more than cabba/menta/shaman) if others get 83 with only 46 points in their specline, even the necromancer has an PBAoE dot with 79 for 44 points in his specline.

It has more chance to be nerfed also Bone Army than to have AoE dot dmg buffed, don't worry
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:14 PM by Nunki
Demaischler wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:00 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:12 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:07 PM
so that bd Darkness and Suppression got nerfed, can we atleast get a Buff to Bone Army spec and get an 83 damage AoE dot like cabba and menta? instead of 61 damage that needs 47 points instead of 46...

No, you are not shaman.

Yes, thats what im saying, im not a shaman, im a Bonedancer, and it just makes no sense that my AoE dot has lower Damage with more points in this Specline than any other AoE dot. And Just that u know, Albion has 2 Classes with high value AoE dots, Cabba with 83dmg and Wizard with the highest AoE dot in DAoC with 87 (yes i know he needs 49 points in Earth ) but again, why should the BD only get 61 dmg with 47 points ( thats 47 skillpoints more than cabba/menta/shaman) if others get 83 with only 46 points in their specline, even the necromancer has an PBAoE dot with 79 for 44 points in his specline.
THIS.

BA-line has no RvR-value beside spec dot (obviously not stacking with ae-dot), 61 dmg ae-dot (lol) and some pet-buffs which is a joke if you compare that with NS for cabalist. No comment regarding Earth-Wizards utility tho, might take too long to list all the utility in that line.

Increase the BA AE-Dot dmg for some variability and slightly increase the LD dmg to compensate the +50% reuse timer, please.

MoA changes are a quite a nerf for Hunters tho. Reintroduce 75 buff charges, please.

The other changes look promising tho, might need to test bleeding dmg and CD changes.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:20 PM by Saroi
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%


Sins are already in a very good spot vs. every enemy. This change is just way overtuned and it hits tanktargets way more since they lose more health during the ws/con debuff which always meant pa is getting absorbed and that was on live too.

You wrote somewhere you want to make stealth opener better than anytimer. In this case just buff the base damage and leave the scaling as it is right now. This means vulnerable targets like casters or other Sins will get more PA damage (More than the con debuff will make you lose health) while Tankclasses don't get that much more damage. And this damage will be still less than a ws/con poison before PA right now.

If you also consider the bleed stacking which bypasses the armor of tanks, tanks get another "nerf" here.

And looking at the style changes Q2 you announced to make higher part chains into 2 part chains and what you wrote here for the announcement splitting apart long chains next week, having ripper maybe as a 2part after Harmstring for high growth rate and high stacking bleeds is yet another big buff.

I know CS needed a buff but this is just way too much.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:24 PM by Valaraukar
Nunki wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:14 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:00 PM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:12 PM
No, you are not shaman.

Yes, thats what im saying, im not a shaman, im a Bonedancer, and it just makes no sense that my AoE dot has lower Damage with more points in this Specline than any other AoE dot. And Just that u know, Albion has 2 Classes with high value AoE dots, Cabba with 83dmg and Wizard with the highest AoE dot in DAoC with 87 (yes i know he needs 49 points in Earth ) but again, why should the BD only get 61 dmg with 47 points ( thats 47 skillpoints more than cabba/menta/shaman) if others get 83 with only 46 points in their specline, even the necromancer has an PBAoE dot with 79 for 44 points in his specline.
THIS.

BA-line has no RvR-value beside spec dot (obviously not stacking with ae-dot), 61 dmg ae-dot (lol) and some pet-buffs which is a joke if you compare that with NS for cabalist. No comment regarding Earth-Wizards utility tho, might take too long to list all the utility in that line.

Increase the BA AE-Dot dmg for some variability and slightly increase the LD dmg to compensate the +50% reuse timer, please.

MoA changes are a quite a nerf for Hunters tho. Reintroduce 75 buff charges, please.

The other changes look promising tho, might need to test bleeding dmg and CD changes.

Hope that hunters will have at least a free RA respec... I've invested a lot of points on MoA on my Hunter, and will need to use 3k feathers to remove it?
(again... who whined about it? The same that have stun and snare styles along with a slower bow? )
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:29 PM by canzian
bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200


....

need more info... 4 dual shadow ( 25 bleed) now tick for 100 dmg????
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:57 PM by Elelish
canzian wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:29 PM
bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200


....

need more info... 4 dual shadow ( 25 bleed) now tick for 100 dmg????

im quite sure that they mean different sources of bleeds stack, not bleeds from the same player...right?.............RIGHT?

everything else would be totally broken...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:58 PM by Sek
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


Can we just delete Minstrel's class ? Hell, give bard insta single stun, aoe as well. Let's be straight, you are slaughtering daoc classes one by one, you already diminished minstrel abilities by a LOT.
Since anything is possible on that rainbow unicorn server, you may as well start a vote to remove minstrel out of your freeshard and if it doesn't pass you will still be able to renew vote just like rvr horse. People invested lot of time on their class, you cannot just remove the basic mechanics out of a class, this will only force people to delete on phoenix, nothing less, nothing more. TIPS of the day, you can damage a pet when released to prevent it from demezzing/unrooting his former owner.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:02 PM by Elelish
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:58 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


. TIPS of the day, you can damage a pet when released to prevent it from demezzing/unrooting his former owner.

rofl, against which kind of grandpa minstrels with reflexes like a dead cow is THAT supposed to work?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:07 PM by Lerox
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


I don't think this a good idea since it requires no skill to outplay a character which requires skill to play properly.
Furthermore if you really want to change something I would recommend to make the pet complete cc-able when it is not charmed. So if the minstrel releases his pet to break his own cc you can cc it and the minstrel has to demezz (while it is charmed) or deroot (pet uncharmed!) it with a dd or hit.

If releasing the pet is useless you have a worse skald with a demezz for the group. Basically an enemy could debuff the pet root it and the pet stands there for over a minute being complete useless.

Speaking for myself I know the mechanic of the minstrel and I can see that the ability to be almost unccable is strong but still it requires skill to play it properly.
I am not sure what you look for with that possible change but hopefully you a good reason.

The last change with the permanent charm was a good opportunity to give players an easier way to play the minstrel which led into a little overpopulation of minstrels.
Since the class itself is the strongest in solo (imo) it could be frustrating for the other realms to fight that many minstrels which run around with a orange/red pet.

Regarding to mentalists: I don't play mentalist but it for them it makes a difference too since a lot of mentalists use their pet to break their cc too.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:12 PM by Tavi
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


Removing mechanics that make minstrel unique, seems like the wrong way on how to tackle this problem.
Since the chant nerf, most minstrels are running around with yell-orange pets, which are already quite easy to deal with. Please consider a different way on how to balance this.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:25 PM by Razur Ur
then lets minstrel max lvl 50pet charm and all is good ;-)
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:27 PM by ularewolf
Tavi wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:12 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


Removing mechanics that make minstrel unique, seems like the wrong way on how to tackle this problem.
Since the chant nerf, most minstrels are running around with yell-orange pets, which are already quite easy to deal with. Please consider a different way on how to balance this.

Minstrel is a great designed class, but really, being immune to mezz/root/snare effects due to pet was pretty ridiculous... This was something that needed to be done.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:29 PM by Sek
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:25 PM
then lets minstrel max lvl 50pet charm and all is good ;-)

i am sorry for you if you feel unable to kill a minstrel, the class itself has been nerfed a lot.. you cannot possibly have any opinion if you started your daoc experience on Phoenix.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:34 PM by Sek
ularewolf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:27 PM
Tavi wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:12 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


Removing mechanics that make minstrel unique, seems like the wrong way on how to tackle this problem.
Since the chant nerf, most minstrels are running around with yell-orange pets, which are already quite easy to deal with. Please consider a different way on how to balance this.

Minstrel is a great designed class, but really, being immune to mezz/root/snare effects due to pet was pretty ridiculous... This was something that needed to be done.

You are questioning the mechanic of a class that has been there for like 20 years... yet at its weakest shape ever on Phoenix...the class itself is far better on any other freeshard even on live... Do keep in mind this is a macro classs, it requires some skill, you cannot burn debuffs, dds and hit to win unlike few other... modos should spend more time fixing melee hiting range, positional angle issue, pet hill glitches, boat lag and much more rather than applying very deep controversial custom changes.


>> THE MINSTREL CLASS HAS NEVER BEEN IMMUNE TO MEZZ/ROOT/SNARE, again this is unacceptable to ever consider NERFING/RUINING a class based on CLUELESS players testimonies.. i am not trying to be rude, i invite you to level your own minstrel to enlarge your knowledge regarding this class. <<
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:00 PM by ularewolf
Thank you for finally adding the smite spell range. With that added, can we please look at other ways to benefit the line, because this is just a small addition.
There are many ways to do this without making clerics too strong, you can easily look at live's cleric and pick out pieces from it.

Proposed changes I'd like to make are from changes Live made to Cleric's at some point.

Bringing smite-spec DD cast time to 2.8-2.6 seconds (similar to other hybrids/casters)
PBAE group heal attached to PBAE DD.
PBAE Snare.
PBAE Heal attached to Smite DD (centered on target).
Adding another smite spec DD after 43 that has a caster-spec DD delve while removing the pbae heal associated with other smite dd's to choose to be more offensive or defensive. (210 delve)

These are all things that the cleric had added at some point or another to make smite more group viable.

Now if we are looking at custom server changes, I'd also like to recommend the following:

Lower Smite DD Spec Power cost.
Move damage add to base smite (similar to nature druid base damage add)
Move melee damage % increase that's in enhancement line to smite line, (This will enable non-smites to still do some melee damage and overall increase smite cleric's melee damage)
Smite-spec DDs have spirit debuff ability attached to them, or a castable spirit debuff like other classes.
Offensive melee DD-proc.
Defensive snare, heal, or ablative proc.
Castable single target mezz. (this is on live)

Adding RR5 RA's would also help due to cleric's being a 50% melee chance defensive stun proc.

These are all ideas, that I think can be balanced depending on which ones were to be chosen from them.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:02 PM by ularewolf
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:34 PM
ularewolf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:27 PM
Tavi wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:12 PM
Removing mechanics that make minstrel unique, seems like the wrong way on how to tackle this problem.
Since the chant nerf, most minstrels are running around with yell-orange pets, which are already quite easy to deal with. Please consider a different way on how to balance this.

Minstrel is a great designed class, but really, being immune to mezz/root/snare effects due to pet was pretty ridiculous... This was something that needed to be done.

You are questioning the mechanic of a class that has been there for like 20 years... yet at its weakest shape ever on Phoenix...the class itself is far better on any other freeshard even on live... Do keep in mind this is a macro classs, it requires some skill, you cannot burn debuffs, dds and hit to win unlike few other... modos should spend more time fixing melee hiting range, positional angle issue, pet hill glitches, boat lag and much more rather than applying very deep controversial custom changes.


>> THE MINSTREL CLASS HAS NEVER BEEN IMMUNE TO MEZZ/ROOT/SNARE, again this is unacceptable to ever consider NERFING/RUINING a class based on CLUELESS players testimonies.. i am not trying to be rude, i invite you to level your own minstrel to enlarge your knowledge regarding this class. <<

I had a 50 Minstrel on Live, one of my most played classes, I don't need to level one up to "enlarge my knowledge". I'm sorry, how is not breaking a pet's charm which breaks their CC, attacks you to break your CC, not some form of CC immunity? This change removes that ability and you actually have to use Purge to get out of hard cc abilities.

Also if you hate what they're doing so much, Live is right around the corner, have fun..
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:08 PM by Kimahri
Thoughts from a sin that will be taken with a grain of salt

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
melee hunter/ranger were already weaker than sins, bad change
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range
don't care
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
dumb change, it has always worked this way in the past
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
buff for infs with dual shadows, but let's be real, 95% of infs are trash so they needed the help
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break ccdon't care
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delayseems legit

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below itdon't understand why we are buffing putting less points into a spec and nerfing putting more, seems like this should work the opposite way
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
I don't like this change, mostly because it is a buff for EU sins against NA sins when it comes to ping delay / perf reaction times.
There are specific players I never see before I consistently eat a perf from them, due to the fact that the server is in their basement or some shit. I find the current landscape nice because these fights are still winnable, however with these new changes I'm at a greater disadvantage simply due to location. My only motivation to play this game is sin vs sin fights, and this change simply eats away at that motivation. Overall a good change for sins I guess, but shitty change at the same time due to networking limitations in the real world

- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%
makes sense with opener changes

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds
much deserved nerf, where is the necro/champ nerfs tho?

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500
bayou buff ftw, well deserved

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal
don't care

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power
- Removed Mastery of Magery
cool story bro
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
hell yeah, death to all minstrels
Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chantawesome changes
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana costterrible change, old heal chant on a good paladin is scary AF

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line
don't care
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:10 PM by Sek
ularewolf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:02 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:34 PM
ularewolf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:27 PM
Minstrel is a great designed class, but really, being immune to mezz/root/snare effects due to pet was pretty ridiculous... This was something that needed to be done.

You are questioning the mechanic of a class that has been there for like 20 years... yet at its weakest shape ever on Phoenix...the class itself is far better on any other freeshard even on live... Do keep in mind this is a macro classs, it requires some skill, you cannot burn debuffs, dds and hit to win unlike few other... modos should spend more time fixing melee hiting range, positional angle issue, pet hill glitches, boat lag and much more rather than applying very deep controversial custom changes.


>> THE MINSTREL CLASS HAS NEVER BEEN IMMUNE TO MEZZ/ROOT/SNARE, again this is unacceptable to ever consider NERFING/RUINING a class based on CLUELESS players testimonies.. i am not trying to be rude, i invite you to level your own minstrel to enlarge your knowledge regarding this class. <<

I had a 50 Minstrel on Live, one of my most played classes, I don't need to level one up to "enlarge my knowledge". I'm sorry, how is not breaking a pet's charm which breaks their CC, attacks you to break your CC, not some form of CC immunity? This change removes that ability and you actually have to use Purge to get out of hard cc abilities.

Also if you hate what they're doing so much, Live is right around the corner, have fun..

Attacking a pet when released therefore purging its crowd control prevent the minstrel from demezzing/unrooting himself, we probably didn't have the same minstrel experience if you cannot fully understand how your class work. Any Minstrel will need to burn Purge when facing someone with average experience regarding how to deal with minstrel facing mezz/root. You guys are like : Oh no minstrel can kite ... Oh no i have a snare but i don't know how to use it. jesus.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:15 PM by Noashakra
Rofl? Removing the CC by pressing release is asking skills of the ministrel?
People act like ministrel is really hard to play, and while it's not easy to play, it's the most played class for a reason... It's OP even if you are half decent. Oh no, you will have to take purge 3/4!
Maybe now we will see alb groups with only one of them.
And the BD acting like their class is nerfed to the ground...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:16 PM by Demaischler
Just one more question, does the Reaver after block chain also get reduced to 2? if yes pls tell me now, so i can quit Mid and roll an Reaver... xD
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:19 PM by Sek
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:15 PM
Rofl? Removing the CC by pressing release is asking skills of the ministrel?
People act like ministrel is really hard to play, and while it's not easy to play, it's the most played class for a reason... It's OP even if you are half decent.
Maybe now we will see alb groups with only one of them.
And the BD acting like their class is nerfed to the ground...

So releasing yellow/oj pet with moderate dmg or red pet with crap dmg but more hps is enough to carry a minstrel toward victory ? Mhhh..okay,
wondering what class you are playing.. Ranger ? Champion ?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:25 PM by Kimahri
@Sek, minstrel lives don't matter
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:28 PM by Basilisk
God forbid people use abilities given to them to counter classes. Some of you crying about mini charm need to invest some time into looking at how confuse affects mini. Or timing cc out better since you can cc the minstrel and pet if you do it right. Thing is. The skill level on this server is low. people don’t know how or when to use abilities so they cry nerf and it happens. Because such as life. We have to move at the pace of the slowest person.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:36 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Elesdee wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:53 AM
whats the deal about grabbin a friar, no matter if you run 1 or 2 clerics, depending on the setup it should be totally viable


Albs like to pretend that a 4 caster train isn't effective, even though Hibs do it all the time.

Cleric, Cleric, Friar, Mini, Sorc, Sorc, Cab, Cab/Sorc/Theurg is perfectly viable (so is Cleric, Cleric, Friar, Mini, Sorc, 3 melee), but let's pretend it's not for the sake of making our realm look bad and beg more for more buffs.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:42 PM by Noashakra
Ranger / NS / Bard / mentalist / vw

Believe me, I run with my pet too and it takes no skill to release your pet to not be cc.
Also, the pet being cc when you release it... What a joke. If you split, you can't have one healer or bard spamming you with cc hopping you will release your pet at the right moment (which will unmez you anyway if you keep it close between two casts because they don't have the sorcerer dex). It's so rare on my mentalist, so on a ministrel.....
Maybe now we will see something else than 2x ministrels in caster groups and even in the af debuff train.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:46 PM by Loki
People - Minstrels require so much skill !
Same people - If you take away the one thing that allows is to be immune to mezz/root while pet is still alive, the class becomes useless !

Really ? What happened with all that skill ? Also Lerox claiming minstrels will be just worse skalds is hilarious, considering skald has 1 ( ONE ) single target, 29 seconds duration, 30 seconds re-use mezz. The fact is, minstrel remains a feared support/disruptor with his insta stun and mobile flute mezz. He just has to make a decision when to use RAs now, rather than not risking anything. Never met a minstrel able to objectively talk about their cons.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:48 PM by ularewolf
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:10 PM
ularewolf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:02 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:34 PM
You are questioning the mechanic of a class that has been there for like 20 years... yet at its weakest shape ever on Phoenix...the class itself is far better on any other freeshard even on live... Do keep in mind this is a macro classs, it requires some skill, you cannot burn debuffs, dds and hit to win unlike few other... modos should spend more time fixing melee hiting range, positional angle issue, pet hill glitches, boat lag and much more rather than applying very deep controversial custom changes.


>> THE MINSTREL CLASS HAS NEVER BEEN IMMUNE TO MEZZ/ROOT/SNARE, again this is unacceptable to ever consider NERFING/RUINING a class based on CLUELESS players testimonies.. i am not trying to be rude, i invite you to level your own minstrel to enlarge your knowledge regarding this class. <<

I had a 50 Minstrel on Live, one of my most played classes, I don't need to level one up to "enlarge my knowledge". I'm sorry, how is not breaking a pet's charm which breaks their CC, attacks you to break your CC, not some form of CC immunity? This change removes that ability and you actually have to use Purge to get out of hard cc abilities.

Also if you hate what they're doing so much, Live is right around the corner, have fun..

Attacking a pet when released therefore purging its crowd control prevent the minstrel from demezzing/unrooting himself, we probably didn't have the same minstrel experience if you cannot fully understand how your class work. Any Minstrel will need to burn Purge when facing someone with average experience regarding how to deal with minstrel facing mezz/root. You guys are like : Oh no minstrel can kite ... Oh no i have a snare but i don't know how to use it. jesus.

I'm glad you can make assumptions based on opinion. My point being was, if both minstrel AND pet are cc'd together, minstrel can release and purge them both for free. Any form of free purge is extremely strong, Minstrel is one of the most played classes here and one of, if not the best solo RvR class in the game. The change prevents the Minstrel from always being able to get a free purge. If you talk as if an "average player" can deal with a minstrel's free purge, then this change shouldn't matter, should it? You're in fact then complaining about a change that apparently will only affect a "bad player" vs a Minstrel? I really don't know what point you're trying to make.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:49 PM by Basilisk
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:42 PM
Ranger / NS / Bard / mentalist / vw

Believe me, I run with my pet too and it takes no skill to release your pet to not be cc.
Also, the pet being cc when you release it... What a joke. If you split, you can't have one healer or bard spamming you with cc hopping you will release your pet at the right moment (which will unmez you anyway if you keep it close between two casts because they don't have the sorcerer dex). It's so rare on my mentalist, so on a ministrel.....
Maybe now we will see something else than 2x ministrels in caster groups and even in the af debuff train.

If you confuse the pet it renders them useless for 20 seconds and won’t respond to attack/passive commands. Also affects charming the pet if they release it. Cc isn’t the only form of taking out a class. I’d be willing to bet most people with confuse don’t even know how it works on certain classes let alone have it on bar.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:50 PM by Astaa
Not enough. Released pets should not break CC on mincer either.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:52 PM by Sek
believe him, he's a 9L+ ranger that do 8v1 train with his mentalist not going to be affected at all by next patch about to kill 20 years old standard ability on a class that has absolutely nothing to do with mentalist, please go rupt, snare, cc, demezz and sos bot with your mentalist, have a good day.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:54 PM by Sek
Astaa wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:50 PM
Not enough. Released pets should not break CC on mincer when released either.

damage the pet on his way back, wont break cc. only 1% community know that yet what's left can afford to complain about the class acting they know shit about.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:57 PM by Noashakra
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:52 PM
believe him, he's a 9L+ ranger that do 8v1 train with his mentalist not going to be affected at all by next patch about to kill 20 years old standard ability on a class that has absolutely nothing to do with mentalist, please go rupt, snare, cc, demezz and sos bot with your mentalist, have a good day.

I love your tears.
When I see ministrels complaining about the numbers of nerfs, it makes me think about people in a race, complaining that their bike aren't allowed to go at 180km/h, but juste 120 and then 100, when all the others are running bare foot.
"but we have to brake, and manage the speed!!!"

It's always like this, with people playing OP classes. When they win, it's always because of their skills. But as soon as nerf comes, they cry about how their class is in fact weak and sub par.

"Archers are so easy to play, look at their numbers, it's the proof it's OP"
"Ministrels are so hard to play, the number of people playing them tells nothing about the fact it's OP!"
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:01 PM by Sek
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:57 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:52 PM
believe him, he's a 9L+ ranger that do 8v1 train with his mentalist not going to be affected at all by next patch about to kill 20 years old standard ability on a class that has absolutely nothing to do with mentalist, please go rupt, snare, cc, demezz and sos bot with your mentalist, have a good day.

I love your tears.
When I see ministrels complaining about the numbers of nerfs, it makes me think about people in a race, complaining that their bike aren't allowed to go at 180km/h, but juste 120 and then 100, when all the others are running bare foot.
"but we have to brake, and manage the speed!!!"

the minstrel class is way less powerful than it's supposed to be, denying that makes you an ignorant, allowing modos to remove a 20 years old class ability makes you a victim. I am playing Sor, tri-pac healer.. Minstrel require more macro than any other beside tri pac healer in few situations.. speaking of OP class you do actively play a ranger, at least my class require some skills to play it well.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:03 PM by Noashakra
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:01 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:57 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:52 PM
believe him, he's a 9L+ ranger that do 8v1 train with his mentalist not going to be affected at all by next patch about to kill 20 years old standard ability on a class that has absolutely nothing to do with mentalist, please go rupt, snare, cc, demezz and sos bot with your mentalist, have a good day.

I love your tears.
When I see ministrels complaining about the numbers of nerfs, it makes me think about people in a race, complaining that their bike aren't allowed to go at 180km/h, but juste 120 and then 100, when all the others are running bare foot.
"but we have to brake, and manage the speed!!!"

the minstrel class is way less powerful than it's supposed to be, denying that makes you an ignorant, allowing modos to remove a 20 years old class ability makes you a victim.

It's STILL the most powerful class in the game, thanks god they already nerf it.
The fact it was like this 20 years ago is an argument to let it completely unbalanced? Get lost dude lol.

I am sure you would make a total different case if it was for the animist...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:09 PM by Sadra
TL;DR Very happy with all these changes. A lot of them seem a long time coming, and I am very happy to see all the healer/ hybrid healer love.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items NOOOOO my ram buffs womp womp.
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range HUGE change, very good!

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds Also amazing, that 4 second was out of control, especially since they also have heal pets.

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500 SMIZZARDS REJOICE! This is a great change and needed. The fact that it was still at 1350, but the aoe was 1500 was goofy.

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal That'll be interesting, change. Will it affect the friar as well? This might be slightly more powerful for solo friars.

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet You mean... if we mez a pet it STAYS MEZZED!? HUZZAH!

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line Very cool! Very happy to see some warden love.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:19 PM by Svekt
Wait, the friar's OFFENSIVE proc is being changed from a group heal to a spread heal? Spread heal heals through disease.... so you mean to tell me once the reaver slams and gets behind me to leviathan he will then proceed to set off a bunch of spread heal for himself and the rest of the group?

Does anyone not see a problem with this?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:20 PM by Astaa
Perhaps mincers could, I dunno, use demez on their pet if it gets mezzed?! Just an idea.

Also, split music and instruments and give them a few more spec points.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:24 PM by Mavella
+1 to whoever said delete minstrels. Just get rid of that stupid class already and give speed to something else. Problem fucking solved.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:24 PM by idknemore
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet

I don't play a Minstrel or Alb, but this change is not great at all. This is purely a game mechanic, no matter how much we like it or not.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:31 PM by Demaischler
Svekt wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:19 PM
Wait, the friar's OFFENSIVE proc is being changed from a group heal to a spread heal? Spread heal heals through disease.... so you mean to tell me once the reaver slams and gets behind me to leviathan he will then proceed to set off a bunch of spread heal for himself and the rest of the group?

Does anyone not see a problem with this?

Not just that, if i understood the style changes right, the Cobra Style ( 4 steps afterblock chain ) would be reduced to 2? if so, they get an 2 step afterblock with leviathan damage and 100% ! life drain, so pls, tell me im wrong xD
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:33 PM by inoeth
hopefully hunters get a useable ASR
everything stands and falls with the application of it
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:33 PM by Sek
Mavella wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:24 PM
+1 to whoever said delete minstrels. Just get rid of that stupid class already and give speed to something else. Problem fucking solved.

Agreed, stop custom change that has nothing to do with Dark Age of Camelot, you are becoming a disgrace to Mythic, may as well delete the class or the whole realm..
+1 to delete Minstrel, let's start a vote.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:38 PM by Adwaenyth
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:33 PM
Mavella wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:24 PM
+1 to whoever said delete minstrels. Just get rid of that stupid class already and give speed to something else. Problem fucking solved.

Agreed, stop custom change that has nothing to do with Dark Age of Camelot, you are becoming a disgrace to Mythic, may as well delete the class or the whole realm..
+1 to delete Minstrel, let's start a vote.

Someone's salty...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:39 PM by Astaa
The outpouring of grief to a minor fix to a completely broken class is a joy to behold but it really doesn't go far enough. Mincers will still remain the most played class and based on that (see the swift archer re-nerf and the reasoning behind it) should expect to see further repairs.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:42 PM by Svekt
General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items Can I have charges back at +75
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range great in open field and keep takes
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard) does this mean they cant stack all their resists now? ie if you fire a second one it instantly stops the first one?
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 will need to be monitored
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication meh
- bleeds no longer break cc smart, never understood the bleed-2ndbleed-snare chain before
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay meh

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade): Didn't see a reason to buff a class that already has an advantage of picking and choosing its targets from stealth, part of this game is knowing when and who to attack
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds This is good, I have a bd and welcome this change

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500 good for like 2-3 soloers but ok if it makes them happy, not typically used in openfield unless needed as a rupt

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal Totally outrageous boost to albs when factored with a reaver in group + 2-4 pets also doing melee swings that could trigger this proc. Furthermore spreadheal heals through disease, this could be potentially devestating

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power meh
- Removed Mastery of Magery meh

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet slow clap

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana meh
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant meh
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost ??? why are you changing how a paladin is played?

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line i guess since you didnt give them slam
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:43 PM by Egonek
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from itemssmall love for all classes that cant spec mo Arcane for Buff potion
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of rangegood
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)good
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200how does will work? if i do a bleed style and one other player do one, who geht the dmg? the enemy can have only one bleed? or the dmg will split from 2 player?
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplicationgood
- bleeds no longer break ccgood
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delayok

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below itIn my eyes assassins are still to op. and if now a low RR do more dmg its the wrong way. If i play caster (no SM/BD) and i get pa so i am 100% death if the assassin has purge rdy. think its BAD.
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%lets try.

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 secondsYou do it because its to much dmg? or because to much rupt or both? otherway he have to get a bit more delve?

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500now we can all play smite cleric yes!

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heallets try. but in my eyes heal friar still have 0 chance for a healer slot in grp.

Healer:
- Removed Wild Poweromg
- Removed Mastery of Mageryomg

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet AND MENTALIST?!?!?!. menta can after pet release quickcast and demezz bard.. menta need this nerf too.

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes manaok
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chantok
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana costhmm we will see

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec linein my eyes to op. not for Warden but for Hibernia. Hibernia play still with druid's. and now they have 3x NS heal in grp. and 2x quick NS heal. to Strong for the Realm not for Warden.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:46 PM by Pedro
It is sad to see the heal chant on the Pally being changed this way. While the heal was small, it helped in building and keeping aggro from npc's, and every now and then, helped in RvR healing during a chant twist, not much, but may offset a dot/poison and keep someone alive.

The BD lifetap change will cause a dent on the Supp spec farming.

As for the Minnies, poor class, they live to their roleplay description of being sneaky, drunken, charming people...

Why not add some equality and give Celerity to Wardens and Paladins (now they can twist something else besides endo!)
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:46 PM by idknemore
and if you're gonna just nerf Minstrels in to the ground, can you at least just give Sorc's speed 5 so we can skip all the bullshit?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:51 PM by Svekt
Can we address debuff values? Currently the debuff values are 15%/30%/50%

Could we instead see something like 10%/15%/30%?

There are plenty of groups timing their nukes to all land simultaneously after the debuff. The average nuke with a red debuff is between 500-600 damage depending on other passive RA

Currently with no mitigation running like BAOD Empty Mind or Soldiers Barricade if 4 caster nuke at the same time after a debuff thats roughly 2k damage without any crits. With crits we are talking about tanks with over 2k dropping instantly with zero chance to heal. This also drains a high level DI almost instantly

We previously addressed HP boost to help with this but I feel like it just gave those casters more time to kite and get that assist off. Can we actually shift this from a caster meta ?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:59 PM by Tyrlaan
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range
Long needed bugfix.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
Why nerf resist chant twisting? It will make these chants absolutely useless.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
Very nice.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost
The first two are basically just QoL since any Paladin would twist endu to not consume any mana.
I´d often rather have the heal chant than an instant group heal on a 60 sec RUT. Why not make the current heal chant spread heal (so it´s a 8sec RUT instant heal neediest)? And think of something else to spend power on, like a PBAE cure disease to counter shaman farts? Or something to boost group dps.

I like the addition of cure NS to Wardens. But when Rejuv Friars (with all their other utility) start handing out spread heal offensive procs I don´t see why people would group a Paladin for their 60sec RUT instant group heal instead.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:01 PM by exveer
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc

As much as I want this to go live just to be incredibly overpowered on my Blademaster, this is going to be a problem. Blademasters currently actively avoid their Bleed styles because of the snare/cc breaking, so making the bleed not only not break cc (which I like, on its own, as it makes it so people can actually use their skills) but also stack to ridiculous amounts (200/tick, I assume this means? Or maybe 200 total damage? Unclear -- either way, yikes) would just make blademasters too good.

Further, Alb Thrust anytime styles both apply bleeds that will quickly stack up to a huge amount of damage that didn't exist before. I haven't researched that one as heavily, but I think that could make for a huge damage increase to minstrels that isn't really needed. That said, I believe most mini's are Slash, so maybe this will mix up the meta a bit. /shrug

Anyway, my $0.02. The rest of the changes cited I have no issues with (BD change seems a bit heavy, but I'm open to it -- and I have a BD, too, for full disclosure).

As always, thanks for all you folks are doing. Maybe I'm wrong, which I'm open to as well.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:03 PM by Sek
make sure every realm has SOS,
increase the amount of players capable of investing points in DET
provide tanks with more hps
grant numerous classes with snare

diminish amount of damage dealt by mobs therefore charmed mobs
reduce the charm cooldown

GET A RID of basic mechanic on Minstrel abilities.

I do like investing time into a class rather than multi rerolling low rank bots sticking all day long to BG and huge rps bonus. I have played berserker on 3-4sec stun and very poor damage table up to rr11L7 9K+ solo kills on Genesis, this is my first minstrel, i have discovered an appetite for macro oriented classes, that "minor fix" just made me realize i have wasted numerous hours on that serveur, you are step by step grinding a very funny class to play with because the community is unable to damage a pet and prevent it from unccing its owner, /roll on the thorny floor

It is your right to dislike Minstrel, i have never liked them much till i played one but i wouldn't encourage a supposed FIX about to disturb a 20 years old mechanic, it's the slippery slope toward more drama changes and no class will remain immune afterward...whether you like it or not, don't bother trying to reach high rank you are not safe.

Will Minstrel remain playable after such fix ? Yes but will require more macro on a class that is already asking a lot when played right. If you are unable to kill random minstrel because you believe it's already too powerful, you are not playing your class right. see below :

>> THE MINSTREL CLASS HAS NEVER BEEN IMMUNE TO MEZZ/ROOT/SNARE, again this is unacceptable to ever consider NERFING/RUINING a class based on CLUELESS players testimonies <<
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:07 PM by Stynkfyst28
I really eish you would listen to the player base that has played daoc for almost twenty years. Instead you are listening cry babies who just learned about daoc within the last year or so. This is not daoc anymore this is just a clone of daoc with daoc graphics
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:09 PM by Basilisk
Doesn’t mattter for those of us who know how to counter a mini. The majority do not and that’s whose gonna win this change argument sadly. Too many mediocre players on a dynamic rvr game. Most are used to WoW being able to button mash and things die.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:13 PM by Blitze
Has there been any version or patch level of DAoC that has unCCable (release pet) minstrels other than here?

Including live, genesis, uth1,uth2?
If there has been how did it work out?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:15 PM by Adwaenyth
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:03 PM
It is your right to dislike Minstrel, i have never liked them much till i played one but i wouldn't encourage a supposed FIX about to disturb a 20 years old mechanic, it's the slippery slope toward more drama changes and no class will remain immune afterward...whether you like it or not, don't bother trying to reach high rank you are not safe.

In 20 years of DAoC I've litereally NEVER seen this "mechanic" been abused like it is here.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:21 PM by Astaa
Basilisk wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:09 PM
Doesn’t mattter for those of us who know how to counter a mini. The majority do not and that’s whose gonna win this change argument sadly. Too many mediocre players on a dynamic rvr game. Most are used to WoW being able to button mash and things die.

I kill any mincer on my hero that stands to fight, kill pet, kill mincer. Though 90% of the time they just SOS away once pet is dead or kite with 2 DDs for a 10 min waste of everyone's time. I don't solo on my hero now though, shelved it, I gave up before getting RR6 because the server is basically zerging/adding heaven.

For the solo game I have always said that mincers need a complete nerf in the whole pet and escape mechanic but a boost in melee.

Frankly there are very few decent mincers about, most just open with mez, /attack with pet and stay out of melee range...my mum could do that and she has massive buttons on her phone and gets confused by whatsapp.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:21 PM by Noashakra
"I always hated ministrels, because it was too OP, but now that I play one and I roll on people, I am actually super happy".
What can you say after that lol...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:36 PM by roope
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

Why nerf the resist chants?
Twisting them is literally their functionality. Its also the only reason why these classes spec high skill. Removing the essence of the top tier skills will drive them towards less class-specific specialization. Dont you want diversity? Colourful classes, a paladin being very different than an armsman? An end chant would hardly do that..

Also, why the bd nerf? You're planning to just take away like 30% of their damage with a casual note? For what reason? They are the hardest to solo to 50, I didnt suffer for it just to have it nerfed to the ground 2 weeks later. This is insane and uncalled for.

Minstrels are the problem, not bds, skalds and paladins, so stop nerfing them, please!


Also, you're writing of style changes, yet I don't see any style changes. Don't you think its embarrassing that literally noone in Midgars uses the Axe weapon line? Only a very few the Sword one?
Thats because Hammer is op as hell. If you want to make changes, do something about this, so that every 3 weapon line actually has a purpose and is a justified choice, instead of doing totally random uncalled for class nerfs, please.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:36 PM by Sek
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:21 PM
"I always hated ministrels, because it was too OP, but now that I play one and I roll on people, I am actually super happy".
What can you say after that lol...

Irrelevant, nothing to do with the class, only with the player awareness, any class can be great if played right, some takes less sweat than other like dealing 900 dmg on opening then 450 less critics right ?
Complaining about kiting ? the melee range is incredibly huge.... takes only a spam snare to kill a minstrel.
SOS away ? well bard and skald can sos too.
Minstrel easy to play ? No, it deals very little damage and has top 2k hps.. the golden age of pets chasing down stealths even after they sneaked out or roaming with pets dealing 400 dmg is over.
Now pets struggle to recap speed up to 500 range, stuck themselves through hills even flat ground from time to time, deal very little damage and can be killed easily, Minstrel isn't the ultimate class, Skald is far better on paper but most skald are ip 3-4 bots rather than investing into first aid 2.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:37 PM by inoeth
plz do not change pala chants!!!!!! this is a huge nerf for an already unwanted class
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:41 PM by inoeth
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:36 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:21 PM
"I always hated ministrels, because it was too OP, but now that I play one and I roll on people, I am actually super happy".
What can you say after that lol...

Irrelevant, nothing to do with the class, only with the player awareness, any class can be great if played right, some takes less sweat than other like dealing 900 dmg on opening then 450 less critics right ?
Complaining about kiting ? the melee range is incredibly huge.... takes only a spam snare to kill a minstrel.
SOS away ? well bard and skald can sos too.
Minstrel easy to play ? No, it deals very little damage and has top 2k hps.. the golden age of pets chasing down stealths even after they sneaked out or roaming with pets dealing 400 dmg is over.
Now pets struggle to recap speed up to 500 range, stuck themselves through hills even flat ground from time to time, deal very little damage and can be killed easily, Minstrel isn't the ultimate class, Skald is far better on paper but most skald are ip 3-4 bots rather than investing into first aid 2.

lul maybe gitgut?
minstrel deals no dmg? lol in what a world are you living?
all i read here is mimimi my op class gets adjusted
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:43 PM by Sek
inoeth wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:41 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:36 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:21 PM
"I always hated ministrels, because it was too OP, but now that I play one and I roll on people, I am actually super happy".
What can you say after that lol...

Irrelevant, nothing to do with the class, only with the player awareness, any class can be great if played right, some takes less sweat than other like dealing 900 dmg on opening then 450 less critics right ?
Complaining about kiting ? the melee range is incredibly huge.... takes only a spam snare to kill a minstrel.
SOS away ? well bard and skald can sos too.
Minstrel easy to play ? No, it deals very little damage and has top 2k hps.. the golden age of pets chasing down stealths even after they sneaked out or roaming with pets dealing 400 dmg is over.
Now pets struggle to recap speed up to 500 range, stuck themselves through hills even flat ground from time to time, deal very little damage and can be killed easily, Minstrel isn't the ultimate class, Skald is far better on paper but most skald are ip 3-4 bots rather than investing into first aid 2.

lul maybe gitgut?
minstrel deals no dmg? lol in what a world are you living?
all i read here is mimimi my op class gets adjusted
i wont judge people, anyone goes at his pace, you not in position to troll me with a rr6 ranger and rr9 hunter on negative k/d ratio
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Keriala
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Horg
How do you say ? lul maybe gitgut ?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:46 PM by Astaa
Anyway, as of right now, 70 mincers online, next up Shamans at 61...

...rangers 52.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:48 PM by Stynkfyst28
only skald could perma spam resist to keep up all the time a pally could not he actually had to twist those things. So why is it being changed for pally? you are literally making pally worthless with this patch. Paladin should be able to keep twisting resist chants that is 50% of the class you are taking away.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:54 PM by Adwaenyth
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:43 PM
i wont judge people, anyone goes at his pace, you not in position to troll me with a rr6 ranger and rr9 hunter on negative k/d ratio

You literally judged him in the same sentence.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:55 PM by Sek
Adwaenyth wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:54 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:43 PM
i wont judge people, anyone goes at his pace, you not in position to troll me with a rr6 ranger and rr9 hunter on negative k/d ratio

You literally judged him in the same sentence.

I am feeling like he deserved it somehow :-(
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:56 PM by Noashakra
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:43 PM
inoeth wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:41 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:36 PM
Irrelevant, nothing to do with the class, only with the player awareness, any class can be great if played right, some takes less sweat than other like dealing 900 dmg on opening then 450 less critics right ?
Complaining about kiting ? the melee range is incredibly huge.... takes only a spam snare to kill a minstrel.
SOS away ? well bard and skald can sos too.
Minstrel easy to play ? No, it deals very little damage and has top 2k hps.. the golden age of pets chasing down stealths even after they sneaked out or roaming with pets dealing 400 dmg is over.
Now pets struggle to recap speed up to 500 range, stuck themselves through hills even flat ground from time to time, deal very little damage and can be killed easily, Minstrel isn't the ultimate class, Skald is far better on paper but most skald are ip 3-4 bots rather than investing into first aid 2.

lul maybe gitgut?
minstrel deals no dmg? lol in what a world are you living?
all i read here is mimimi my op class gets adjusted
i wont judge people, anyone goes at his pace, you not in position to troll me with a rr6 ranger and rr9 hunter on negative k/d ratio
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Keriala
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Horg
How do you say ? lul maybe gitgut ?

LOL?
Do you know anything about his play style? When he can play, etc? If you play an average class solo, in prime time, how can you do good in terms of stats? Also the number of people stealing your solo kills by leeching are insane.
You are ridiculous. And lol the ranger that perma snare the mincer, when you can snare him too...
I can show you my stats, and they will be meaningless to compare because I killed a lot of xpers...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:00 PM by Sek
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:56 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:43 PM
inoeth wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:41 PM
lul maybe gitgut?
minstrel deals no dmg? lol in what a world are you living?
all i read here is mimimi my op class gets adjusted
i wont judge people, anyone goes at his pace, you not in position to troll me with a rr6 ranger and rr9 hunter on negative k/d ratio
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Keriala
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Horg
How do you say ? lul maybe gitgut ?

LOL?
Do you know anything about his play style? When he can play, etc? If you play an average class solo, in prime time, how can you do good in terms of stats? Also the number of people stealing your solo kills by leeching are insane.
You are ridiculous. And lol the ranger that perma snare the mincer, when you can snare him too...
I can show you my stats, and they will be meaningless to compare because I killed a lot of xpers...

Pretty sure he is the only one to endure db robbery, snare was concerning most classes but ranger, why would ranger need a snare, they already own a rocket launcher.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:07 PM by LuxusY
Tavi wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:12 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet


Removing mechanics that make minstrel unique, seems like the wrong way on how to tackle this problem.
Since the chant nerf, most minstrels are running around with yell-orange pets, which are already quite easy to deal with. Please consider a different way on how to balance this.

true
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:19 PM by Stynkfyst28
Tyrlaan wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:59 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range
Long needed bugfix.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
Why nerf resist chant twisting? It will make these chants absolutely useless.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
Very nice.

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost
The first two are basically just QoL since any Paladin would twist endu to not consume any mana.
I´d often rather have the heal chant than an instant group heal on a 60 sec RUT. Why not make the current heal chant spread heal (so it´s a 8sec RUT instant heal neediest)? And think of something else to spend power on, like a PBAE cure disease to counter shaman farts? Or something to boost group dps.

I like the addition of cure NS to Wardens. But when Rejuv Friars (with all their other utility) start handing out spread heal offensive procs I don´t see why people would group a Paladin for their 60sec RUT instant group heal instead.

They are making the pally totally useless with this patch
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:20 PM by JEEBz73
Farewell my dear pal.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:22 PM by roope
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:19 PM
They are making the pally totally useless with this patch

And skalds.

And bds.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:27 PM by tommccartney
I’ve never agreed with out flat nerfs - even if I hate fighting the classes(and I hate bd’s & mins) People put so much time into characters and it can be very demoralising. A nerf should be more like a ‘change’ imo.

Example would be increase delay on BD insta LT to 6sec but perhaps increase the delve of their base line DD slightly
Less annoying rupt but same’ish dps.

For Minstrel perhaps grant them a pet purge RA ? Even if it scaled on a higher timer than player purge

Pet purge 1 - 25min reuse, 5sec delay
Pet purge 2 - 20min reuse, 5sec delay
Pet purge 3 - 15min reuse, no delay
Pet purge 4 - 10min reuse, no delay
Pet purge 5 - 7:30min reuse, no delay

I dunno .. just throwing ideas out there, anything is better than a dead server because albs speed6 class got nerfed and mid has crappy casters
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:27 PM by Razur Ur
roope wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:22 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:19 PM
They are making the pally totally useless with this patch

And skalds.

And bds.

and champions tho :-/
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:28 PM by Stynkfyst28
If you are keeping heal chant the same you need to keep resist chants the same for paladin. If you make it where we have to twist resist on the last chant than that it self nerfs the heal chant and we only get one tick instead of two ticks. So please really reconsider these pally changes.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:30 PM by Cash
As a BD I understand nerfing the solo ability of BD and minstrel but BDs are not as OP in group. Mids advantage is push rupt to combat alb range and pet numbers and hibs cc and sustain. Nerfing the timer limits mid hybrids while giving albs things like friar proc and hibs things like extra NS clear on the pbt toon. This seems like a realm imbalance. Mid 8 mans are getting nerfed when alb caster groups and hib 5 natty groups are already very strong.

Why not adjust the timer based on spec? 1st LT is 6 sec, 37 spec is 5 sec which is what most 8 man bds run, so they lose a little rupt and 25% dmg, the 47 could be 4 sec but they'd have to sacrifice dd and pet dmg to do it. You could even put it at 48 supp. That way you can choose to be a caster for dmg OR be solo spec/group rupter but not both

This would nerf the plethora of bds out there but still allow mids to run push/rupt hybrid groups

Also, necros are just as OP in solo so why bd/minst solo nerf but no necro?

Thanks
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:33 PM by roope
Cash wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:30 PM
Also, necros are just as OP in solo so why bd/minst solo nerf but no necro?

Exactly. Again changes that noone wanted/needed. Nerf the OP classes, not the weak ones!
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:34 PM by Stynkfyst28
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:28 PM
If you are keeping heal chant the same you need to keep resist chants the same for paladin. If you make it where we have to twist resist on the last chant than that it self nerfs the heal chant and we only get one tick instead of two ticks. So please really reconsider these pally changes. Like these changes are making it where the paladin is not even a paladin at all. We already don't get ST or Stoic. This is no longer a paladin. But champ does not get touched they have double debuff value on this server they have ST and really bursty dps but nothing gets changed with them.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:36 PM by tommccartney
High stealther population on any server is less than desirable
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:47 PM by Maniac
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:34 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:28 PM
If you are keeping heal chant the same you need to keep resist chants the same for paladin. If you make it where we have to twist resist on the last chant than that it self nerfs the heal chant and we only get one tick instead of two ticks. So please really reconsider these pally changes. Like these changes are making it where the paladin is not even a paladin at all. We already don't get ST or Stoic. This is no longer a paladin. But champ does not get touched they have double debuff value on this server they have ST and really bursty dps but nothing gets changed with them.

Totally Agree to that . Not only that that is a big nerf to Pallys but also that Champs remain untouched (op imho).
The Debuff Value is too high for the Buff Potions we get, so either buff Buff Potions or nerf Champs.
I'd say keep the resist chants the same, not because i play a Pally but because it is (kind of) their Whole kit and this nerfs them quite hard.
~Exe
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:50 PM by Adwaenyth
tommccartney wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:27 PM
For Minstrel perhaps grant them a pet purge RA ? Even if it scaled on a higher timer than player purge

Well maybe Minstrels can just use normal purge and demezz / deroot pet afterwards if pet is that necessary? I mean they can spec purge after all...
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:52 PM by inoeth
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:43 PM
inoeth wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:41 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:36 PM
Irrelevant, nothing to do with the class, only with the player awareness, any class can be great if played right, some takes less sweat than other like dealing 900 dmg on opening then 450 less critics right ?
Complaining about kiting ? the melee range is incredibly huge.... takes only a spam snare to kill a minstrel.
SOS away ? well bard and skald can sos too.
Minstrel easy to play ? No, it deals very little damage and has top 2k hps.. the golden age of pets chasing down stealths even after they sneaked out or roaming with pets dealing 400 dmg is over.
Now pets struggle to recap speed up to 500 range, stuck themselves through hills even flat ground from time to time, deal very little damage and can be killed easily, Minstrel isn't the ultimate class, Skald is far better on paper but most skald are ip 3-4 bots rather than investing into first aid 2.

lul maybe gitgut?
minstrel deals no dmg? lol in what a world are you living?
all i read here is mimimi my op class gets adjusted
i wont judge people, anyone goes at his pace, you not in position to troll me with a rr6 ranger and rr9 hunter on negative k/d ratio
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Keriala
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Horg
How do you say ? lul maybe gitgut ?

i dont know if you already knew, but my classes do not have sos, insta stun, mezz ... so its pretty hard to when outnumbered.
and as a matter of fact there are alot of red is dead ppl here... i expected a silly answer from you, that does not hurt me. actually it really turns me on that you are so touched by this nerf. cry more with your still op as fuck class
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:58 PM by gromet12
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:48 PM
only skald could perma spam resist to keep up all the time a pally could not he actually had to twist those things. So why is it being changed for pally? you are literally making pally worthless with this patch. Paladin should be able to keep twisting resist chants that is 50% of the class you are taking away.

You shouldn't be able to twist every song with a single press macro...

I would love to see no more macro controls, it is a bannable offense....Instead, they changed the cheese on the classes that can twist resist with a macro

stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)

That clearly states it affects the Skald and Bard

The changes mentioned should stay along with the change to heal chant
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:01 PM by Stynkfyst28
gromet12 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:58 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:48 PM
only skald could perma spam resist to keep up all the time a pally could not he actually had to twist those things. So why is it being changed for pally? you are literally making pally worthless with this patch. Paladin should be able to keep twisting resist chants that is 50% of the class you are taking away.

You shouldn't be able to twist every song with a single press macro...

I would love to see no more macro controls, it is a bannable offense....Instead, they changed the cheese on the classes that can twist resist with a macro

stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)

That clearly states it affects the Skald and Bard

The changes mentioned should stay along with the change to heal chant

it stated paladin skald and bard and no you do these changes this is not a paladin why change something thats been this way for 20 years
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:02 PM by Stynkfyst28
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:17 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items Good, bugfix
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range Good, bugfix
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard) Good, QoL
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 Needs testing
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication OK
- bleeds no longer break cc I would have left sleep/mezz to be broken by bleeding
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay Good, previous nerf bugfix

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it "Fixed" would have to test it in thid
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications OK
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15% OK, nerf

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds Good, nerf

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500 crit/rework down the drain?

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal Good, bump to support friar

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power OK
- Removed Mastery of Magery OK

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet Huge Nerf, would have to see the impact -> all minstrel train jumpers move to mid to play skald? or hib to play bard?

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana QoL, no longer need to cap power/piety for SC
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant OK, can just leave it on, making 42 chants mandatory huge boost for groupability
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost Strange, nerf to PvE/duel paladin would need to be 375 value, increased by chants spec/piety?

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line OK, but hib already has enough healers
a mechanic thats been around for twenty is years is that you don't run endo chant on last chant and you will not lose any power. a paladin never hard to temp +chants or power or acuity these changes mean we would need to
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:32 PM by Stynkfyst28
gromet12 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:58 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:48 PM
only skald could perma spam resist to keep up all the time a pally could not he actually had to twist those things. So why is it being changed for pally? you are literally making pally worthless with this patch. Paladin should be able to keep twisting resist chants that is 50% of the class you are taking away.

You shouldn't be able to twist every song with a single press macro...

I would love to see no more macro controls, it is a bannable offense....Instead, they changed the cheese on the classes that can twist resist with a macro

stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)

That clearly states it affects the Skald and Bard

The changes mentioned should stay along with the change to heal chant

Admins stated in beta we could macro so classes could utilize everything including twisting chants pally has 12 chants to twist. If they never wanted it why did they say them selves its allowed and its so classes can utilize everything aka pally and skald songs/chants. Big difference is pally has to twist every 8 seconds for the resist as a skald can spam it. So idk maybe make skalds like the pally. This isnt allowed but caster grps can have assist macros. And not the assist macro you are thinking of either. Literally all of ur try hard 8 mans have far worse macros from ahk than me twisting all my chants
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:35 PM by Centenario
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:02 PM
a mechanic thats been around for twenty is years is that you don't run endo chant on last chant and you will not lose any power. a paladin never hard to temp +chants or power or acuity these changes mean we would need to
This only works at endo 4, before you need to twist differently to be able to keep the endo up.
Also when chants cost endo on top, you couldnt just not leave endo up and use style and spam chants...

My paladin would be better ifwe can fully cap so its cool if we can make use of the power/acuity and +chants.

Finally since looping macro is forbidden, if you forget to trigger it you will make your group run out of endo if you don't put endo at the end.

I personally use twice the endo within my cast sequence, and i tap the button every second, switching bars and spell every second.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:35 PM by Razur Ur
Maniac wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:47 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:34 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:28 PM
If you are keeping heal chant the same you need to keep resist chants the same for paladin. If you make it where we have to twist resist on the last chant than that it self nerfs the heal chant and we only get one tick instead of two ticks. So please really reconsider these pally changes. Like these changes are making it where the paladin is not even a paladin at all. We already don't get ST or Stoic. This is no longer a paladin. But champ does not get touched they have double debuff value on this server they have ST and really bursty dps but nothing gets changed with them.

Totally Agree to that . Not only that that is a big nerf to Pallys but also that Champs remain untouched (op imho).
The Debuff Value is too high for the Buff Potions we get, so either buff Buff Potions or nerf Champs.
I'd say keep the resist chants the same, not because i play a Pally but because it is (kind of) their Whole kit and this nerfs them quite hard.
~Exe

Haha nerf champ XD, than give higher melee dmg or delete champ from game.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:37 PM by evert
I admire the one-man campaign, I have to say
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:46 PM by Maniac
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:32 PM
gromet12 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:58 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:48 PM
only skald could perma spam resist to keep up all the time a pally could not he actually had to twist those things. So why is it being changed for pally? you are literally making pally worthless with this patch. Paladin should be able to keep twisting resist chants that is 50% of the class you are taking away.

You shouldn't be able to twist every song with a single press macro...

I would love to see no more macro controls, it is a bannable offense....Instead, they changed the cheese on the classes that can twist resist with a macro

stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)

That clearly states it affects the Skald and Bard

The changes mentioned should stay along with the change to heal chant

Admins stated in beta we could macro so classes could utilize everything including twisting chants pally has 12 chants to twist. If they never wanted it why did they say them selves its allowed and its so classes can utilize everything aka pally and skald songs/chants. Big difference is pally has to twist every 8 seconds for the resist as a skald can spam it. So idk maybe make skalds like the pally. This isnt allowed but caster grps can have assist macros. And not the assist macro you are thinking of either. Literally all of ur try hard 8 mans have far worse macros from ahk than me twisting all my chants

'' you shouldnt be able to twist every song with a single press macro '' Why do u think they made the AHK Macro 'legal' ? So the Classes can cast all of the (chants) resists at once. Which ISNT broken or op or anything. It should never be bannale to just get something done faster .
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:53 PM by Neso
Endo changes to Paladin are good, although unsure about the change to chants. Sounds like a nerf to an already underplayed class.

60sec heal delve? affected by disease?

Wouldn't it be easier to increase the base tick of the heal chant instead? or a single target heal?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:00 PM by Stynkfyst28
Neso wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:53 PM
Endo changes to Paladin are good, although unsure about the change to chants. Sounds like a nerf to an already underplayed class.

60sec heal delve? affected by disease?

Wouldn't it be easier to increase the base tick of the heal chant instead? or a single target heal?

Heal chant already does two ticks for 48 hp each tick its fine how it is nothing on the pally needed to be touched its one of the most under played classes. You have tons of champs that are allowed to be op.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:20 PM by sleeve
Does this include necro pet?
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:29 PM by hyshash
From a 8vs8 point of view:

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range -> huge nerv to every single pet class and totaly unnecessary controlling pets is a whole subgame within every fight dunno why you would want to nerv that
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard) ->a nerv to the three classes with paladin suffering the most since most grps actually take a pala for endu and his resist chants and nothing more ... scraping that of the class will limit his appearance in grps even more
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 -> this will be together with the "dont break cc part" a buff to melee grps and some speccs ... certainly good for the versability of speccs

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds -> sure mid hybrid is the dominant mid setup and it heavily relys upon the bd to do dmg/rupt but after all bd seem to be in a good state at the moment ... nerving his pets AND his ll seem to be to much

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500 -> was needed .... there was never a reason for the 1350 range

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal -> an indirect nerv to pala since he competes with friar for a spot in a grp regarding his utility but on the other hand both classes arent to often in any setup so buffing eigther of em seems to be ok ... and friar still cant compete with cler for a spot as the main heal he would need some livelike changes for that

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet -> yes mins are still realy good in 8vs8 after the recent nervs BUT as soon as you kill their pet they are out of the game since they heavily rely on them so nerving them even further within this direction seem to be to much ... you should rly compensate that nerv with some kind of insta decc thats castable while the mins is cced but on a 1 min timer or just scrap your whole nerv idea and come up with a better idea that wont destroy the whole concept of the class

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana ->good
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant ->totaly needed
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost -> having another insta heal on a 1min timer on par with vr1 or smth will be nice for any grp and way better then the current heal chant ...

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line -> why? its not like warden/hib needs more ns clears so buff the warden into that direction seem to be out of context?

the pala buffs wont be enough ... he needs his endu range increased to 2k and prolly even a buff like a dumbed down/halv value cele to be able to compete with an arms for the def tank spot or an friar for the "utility/bring cold/heat resi to the grp" spot ....

all these changes seem to cater towards the dark age of meleelot agenda the devs are on atm ... most grps during eu pt (and yes also alb) are currently running eigther some kind of hybrid or full melee setups dunno why you would want to go even further into that direction... it seems like you want to funnel especially alb into melee setups to overcome the caster(5body) meta we had like 5 months ago without noticing that you overcame that allready and instead of buffing more or implementing new skills (supp baseline nukes in mid for mid caster setups etc) to get a better diversity of setups you choose the way of nerving/destroying the little diversity we got atm
most caster setups that arent 5 body or hib caster with ani (both with high rr before they are kinda bad they just scale nicely) just dont work at higher skill lvls anymore
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:51 PM by Stynkfyst28
hyshash wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:29 PM
From a 8vs8 point of view:

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range -> huge nerv to every single pet class and totaly unnecessary controlling pets is a whole subgame within every fight dunno why you would want to nerv that
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard) ->a nerv to the three classes with paladin suffering the most since most grps actually take a pala for endu and his resist chants and nothing more ... scraping that of the class will limit his appearance in grps even more
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 -> this will be together with the "dont break cc part" a buff to melee grps and some speccs ... certainly good for the versability of speccs

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds -> sure mid hybrid is the dominant mid setup and it heavily relys upon the bd to do dmg/rupt but after all bd seem to be in a good state at the moment ... nerving his pets AND his ll seem to be to much

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500 -> was needed .... there was never a reason for the 1350 range

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal -> an indirect nerv to pala since he competes with friar for a spot in a grp regarding his utility but on the other hand both classes arent to often in any setup so buffing eigther of em seems to be ok ... and friar still cant compete with cler for a spot as the main heal he would need some livelike changes for that

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet -> yes mins are still realy good in 8vs8 after the recent nervs BUT as soon as you kill their pet they are out of the game since they heavily rely on them so nerving them even further within this direction seem to be to much ... you should rly compensate that nerv with some kind of insta decc thats castable while the mins is cced but on a 1 min timer or just scrap your whole nerv idea and come up with a better idea that wont destroy the whole concept of the class

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana ->good
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant ->totaly needed
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost -> having another insta heal on a 1min timer on par with vr1 or smth will be nice for any grp and way better then the current heal chant ...

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line -> why? its not like warden/hib needs more ns clears so buff the warden into that direction seem to be out of context?

the pala buffs wont be enough ... he needs his endu range increased to 2k and prolly even a buff like a dumbed down/halv value cele to be able to compete with an arms for the def tank spot or an friar for the "utility/bring cold/heat resi to the grp" spot ....

all these changes seem to cater towards the dark age of meleelot agenda the devs are on atm ... most grps during eu pt (and yes also alb) are currently running eigther some kind of hybrid or full melee setups dunno why you would want to go even further into that direction... it seems like you want to funnel especially alb into melee setups to overcome the caster(5body) meta we had like 5 months ago without noticing that you overcame that allready and instead of buffing more or implementing new skills (supp baseline nukes in mid for mid caster setups etc) to get a better diversity of setups you choose the way of nerving/destroying the little diversity we got atm
most caster setups that arent 5 body or hib caster with ani (both with high rr before they are kinda bad they just scale nicely) just dont work at higher skill lvls anymore


where are these melee setup's for real name 4 guilds who run a melee set up? I see waaaaay more caster grps / caster metas out there. I get what you are saying somewhat but there is def not more melee grps that is for sure.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:09 PM by imweasel
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:24 AM
Really did not expect people wanting a minor hot over a controllable burst heal but oh well, if that's the thing that riles up people we can just keep the heal chant and leave endu chant to be the sole mana consumer.

I think this really depends on the delve and mana cost for the burst heal.

If it's a low delve, then it needs to be way less then a 60sec timer.

If its a bigger delve, then it would need some testing to balance out timer and power usage.

I think making end chant zero power and up at all times is fine.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:18 PM by hyshash
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:51 PM
where are these melee setup's for real name 4 guilds who run a melee set up? I see waaaaay more caster grps / caster metas out there. I get what you are saying somewhat but there is def not more melee grps that is for sure.

Mid: Ferboten PugPool(Hybrid), Prime (Hybrid),Error, Expelled, there are some other Pools roaming full melee/with 1 bd (hybrid is kinda melee heavy if you dont want to count em towards the melee statement well thats ok but they arent caster grps for sure)
Albale, Sad Pandas, Zeal
Hib: Sorry guys i know your names but not the Guilds ... there are like 3-4 Guilds/Pools roaming 4-5 Nature+melees

From an alb eu pt perspective 95% of the 8vs8 fights are against melee grps there are more evenings without a 8vs8 against a caster grp then there are with a even a single fight against a caster grp
We see like 2-3 alb caster grps and at least the same amount of alb melee grps.
Still wanna see these waaaaaaaay more caster setups. Maybe the perspective is kinda different from hib/mid cause you happen to run into the alb caster grps more often but even in these realms it should be noticeable that there are more melee setups then caster setups
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:30 PM by Stynkfyst28
hyshash wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:18 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:51 PM
where are these melee setup's for real name 4 guilds who run a melee set up? I see waaaaay more caster grps / caster metas out there. I get what you are saying somewhat but there is def not more melee grps that is for sure.

Mid: Ferboten PugPool(Hybrid), Prime (Hybrid),Error, Expelled, there are some other Pools roaming full melee/with 1 bd (hybrid is kinda melee heavy if you dont want to count em towards the melee statement well thats ok but they arent caster grps for sure)
Albale, Sad Pandas, Zeal
Hib: Sorry guys i know your names but not the Guilds ... there are like 3-4 Guilds/Pools roaming 4-5 Nature+melees

From an alb eu pt perspective 95% of the 8vs8 fights are against melee grps there are more evenings without a 8vs8 against a caster grp then there are with a even a single fight against a caster grp
We see like 2-3 alb caster grps and at least the same amount of alb melee grps.
Still wanna see these waaaaaaaay more caster setups. Maybe the perspective is kinda different from hib/mid cause you happen to run into the alb caster grps more often but even in these realms it should be noticeable that there are more melee setups then caster setups

i guess it depends on time zone. N/A we see far more caster grps than anything for longest time alb only had one melee grp.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 10:44 PM by Faan
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power
- Removed Mastery of Magery

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line

Nerf BD ? Wow that's ridiculous. In zerg or 8v8 situation 4 secs are fine. I mean BD need to live with his suicide commander. Take his lifetap to 8 sec and give him dread lich or let it be 4 seconds. 6 seconds are shit. I mean lifetap is all what BD really has, pet dies so super fast and with 6 second it makes BD really bad.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:09 PM by klundtehprodk
So I have read basicly all 28 pages, I can confirm I have no life. However I noticed that there have yet to be made any good arguments for the minstrel change. Only postive voices for the change can basicly be summed up to: "Haha minstrel go ZZZZZ" or worse.

I can understand people see the minstrel as super buff in solo/small action(but this is also true for other classes in the smallman meta also), but in the bigger perspective the change will hit the alb group oriented play much harder than I think devs intend -Idno maybe Uthred runs solo/smally ;-)

With the mob dmg nerf, and the charm change I think minstrel is at a good place. Maybe just slightly too good, since I agree it seems there has been an enclination in the active minstrel population since the change in charm mechanic. Which most probably also was the reason for it to catch on in the first place.

I personally wouldn't like changes to the class as it stands, but I can understand why you want to look into changing the class -but what is proposed in it current form I believe could have a devastating effect on the alb population in a very immediate future. I hope devs will reconsider.

I wish I had a better suggestion to make minstrel seem more "fair", but I do not. Actually, what about just increasing the resuse timer of charm in combat? that could slow down minstrels and give enemies an assist with timing their CC, to out-play the minstrel and lock him out of the fight? Instead of giving pet "de-cc" abilities etc, the first release/charm is a freebie, the next will cost you like 30s. CC coordination should be easier in a larger group already, so less of an impact.

I would have suggested access to Determination, but I don't believe it is a good fix to whatever you see is the issue with the minstrel mechanic/role in rvr.

/Disclaimer: Yes, I play mins main.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:47 PM by Lucifeur
Why not just remove minstrel charm completely? Get it over with already.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:55 AM by Stynkfyst28
Lucifeur wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:47 PM
Why not just remove minstrel charm completely? Get it over with already.

yup you know it's coming smh... But its okay for a ment to charm a yellow oj pets. have cast able stun, mez, great self healing. Can charm a sage pet that heal for 250 oh yeah they also get ST now.......
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:25 AM by gotwqqd
Centenario wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:55 PM
Forlornhope wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:52 PM
Blevox wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:48 PM
Yes
well, that's stupid as hell lol. Why would they even propose this?
Lol...fallacies
This is not what is proposed. The purpose is to make sure that the debuff is taken into account before the damage, so that the damage doesnt get eaten up by the debuff.

The only time it really matters is if you are attacking an enemy with low life from stealth, where the pa/bs damage would be a killing blow
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:32 AM by gotwqqd
jwalker wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 1:38 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items

- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

- Nerf to solo hybrids, caster and Hunter/Ranger by nerfing MoA - was that really necessary?

- you already nerfed the buff to archery and now you further nerf hybrid specs that used high level of MoA to cap yellow buffs + additional stats from pots while having okish melee and bow. These specs suffer now as well and force you into full melee. Further, assassins are heavily buffed so hybrids and archer will underperform

- infiltrator love this change with dual shadows totally overperforming as a style. 4x dual shadows did before around 14x13 (182) damage now it will deal 4x11x13 (572) damage

- PA change will actually BUFF the PA of low CS user (the typical high duel wield, high LA, CD specs with 21-34 CS) as the debuff will apply after the con/str debuff AND the base damage is buffed . While I like that PA will matter more I feel like we are buffing the wrong specs (low CS compared to high CS spec).
What about solo that don’t have self buffs/MoA?
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:37 AM by Toadster
Am I incorrect in saying that Minstrels will still be able to release the pet and wack it to break whatever CC it is under? Obviously this takes away their 99% un-cc-ability, but it does require that both the minstrel and the pet get mezzed concurrently, or rooted and NS’d out of DD range of the pet (group mates may also be able to free up the pet after release) to REALLY take them out. Minstrels can also run high purge (their points become luxury pretty quickly with no Det) to get themselves and their pets out of CC under these pretenses.

Obviously, I see the trickiness of it against good groups and while playing in a caster setup, but I think it maybe requires minstrels and their groupmates to play more carefully and pay more attention, which I don’t think is too much to ask given how it’s been for the past year and half.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:47 AM by Swage
Paladin is already a very underrated class, these changes completely nullify any current Paladins template because currently we do not need acuity or even power. This is more than a nerf.

Please look at these changes again before you destroy the viability of this class.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:53 AM by Jingo NZ
Feedback on changes:
I suggest some minor tweaks and a “softly softly” approach for nerfs

Pets finish cast outside of LoS/range: spells still land but are only 50% effective (less dmg, less cc duration)

Bleed stacks: bleeds from different players stack, bleeds from the same player and different styles stack, but bleeds from the same player and same style DON’T stack

Critical strike and ws/con debuff change: = lots of free extra dmg for assassin. There must be a better way to differentiate PA vs anytime style opening. This is still a lot of extra dmg even if you reduce con debuff to – 50%. Increasing PA dmg for those that don’t spec high CS actually encourages the “anytime style” spec.

BD lifetap change: Good suggestion in the previous comments for lifetap to be 6/5/4 sec depending on spec.

Minstrel pet release: instead make it that all released pets are stunned for 6 sec (or maybe disarmed and silenced for 10 sec).
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:02 AM by gotwqqd
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:10 PM
ularewolf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:02 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 3:34 PM
You are questioning the mechanic of a class that has been there for like 20 years... yet at its weakest shape ever on Phoenix...the class itself is far better on any other freeshard even on live... Do keep in mind this is a macro classs, it requires some skill, you cannot burn debuffs, dds and hit to win unlike few other... modos should spend more time fixing melee hiting range, positional angle issue, pet hill glitches, boat lag and much more rather than applying very deep controversial custom changes.


>> THE MINSTREL CLASS HAS NEVER BEEN IMMUNE TO MEZZ/ROOT/SNARE, again this is unacceptable to ever consider NERFING/RUINING a class based on CLUELESS players testimonies.. i am not trying to be rude, i invite you to level your own minstrel to enlarge your knowledge regarding this class. <<

I had a 50 Minstrel on Live, one of my most played classes, I don't need to level one up to "enlarge my knowledge". I'm sorry, how is not breaking a pet's charm which breaks their CC, attacks you to break your CC, not some form of CC immunity? This change removes that ability and you actually have to use Purge to get out of hard cc abilities.

Also if you hate what they're doing so much, Live is right around the corner, have fun..

Attacking a pet when released therefore purging its crowd control prevent the minstrel from demezzing/unrooting himself, we probably didn't have the same minstrel experience if you cannot fully understand how your class work. Any Minstrel will need to burn Purge when facing someone with average experience regarding how to deal with minstrel facing mezz/root. You guys are like : Oh no minstrel can kite ... Oh no i have a snare but i don't know how to use it. jesus.
Having to burn purge.....sorta like most other classes
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:12 AM by gotwqqd
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:54 PM
Astaa wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:50 PM
Not enough. Released pets should not break CC on mincer when released either.

damage the pet on his way back, wont break cc. only 1% community know that yet what's left can afford to complain about the class acting they know shit about.

Sure.... but you know being a good minstrel you keep the pet very close and give no time for the tactic above
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:18 AM by gotwqqd
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:33 PM
Mavella wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:24 PM
+1 to whoever said delete minstrels. Just get rid of that stupid class already and give speed to something else. Problem fucking solved.

Agreed, stop custom change that has nothing to do with Dark Age of Camelot, you are becoming a disgrace to Mythic, may as well delete the class or the whole realm..
+1 to delete Minstrel, let's start a vote.

Cuts off nose....
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:21 AM by gotwqqd
Egonek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 5:43 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from itemssmall love for all classes that cant spec mo Arcane for Buff potion
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of rangegood
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)good
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200how does will work? if i do a bleed style and one other player do one, who geht the dmg? the enemy can have only one bleed? or the dmg will split from 2 player?
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplicationgood
- bleeds no longer break ccgood
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delayok

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below itIn my eyes assassins are still to op. and if now a low RR do more dmg its the wrong way. If i play caster (no SM/BD) and i get pa so i am 100% death if the assassin has purge rdy. think its BAD.
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%lets try.

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 secondsYou do it because its to much dmg? or because to much rupt or both? otherway he have to get a bit more delve?

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500now we can all play smite cleric yes!

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heallets try. but in my eyes heal friar still have 0 chance for a healer slot in grp.

Healer:
- Removed Wild Poweromg
- Removed Mastery of Mageryomg

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet AND MENTALIST?!?!?!. menta can after pet release quickcast and demezz bard.. menta need this nerf too.

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes manaok
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chantok
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana costhmm we will see

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec linein my eyes to op. not for Warden but for Hibernia. Hibernia play still with druid's. and now they have 3x NS heal in grp. and 2x quick NS heal. to Strong for the Realm not for Warden.
Nice font color choice!!!!0
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:29 AM by gotwqqd
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:36 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:21 PM
"I always hated ministrels, because it was too OP, but now that I play one and I roll on people, I am actually super happy".
What can you say after that lol...

Irrelevant, nothing to do with the class, only with the player awareness, any class can be great if played right, some takes less sweat than other like dealing 900 dmg on opening then 450 less critics right ?
Complaining about kiting ? the melee range is incredibly huge.... takes only a spam snare to kill a minstrel.
SOS away ? well bard and skald can sos too.
Minstrel easy to play ? No, it deals very little damage and has top 2k hps.. the golden age of pets chasing down stealths even after they sneaked out or roaming with pets dealing 400 dmg is over.
Now pets struggle to recap speed up to 500 range, stuck themselves through hills even flat ground from time to time, deal very little damage and can be killed easily, Minstrel isn't the ultimate class, Skald is far better on paper but most skald are ip 3-4 bots rather than investing into first aid 2.
Well if you quit playing the game you can make loads picking cherries
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:33 AM by gotwqqd
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:56 PM
Sek wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:43 PM
inoeth wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 6:41 PM
lul maybe gitgut?
minstrel deals no dmg? lol in what a world are you living?
all i read here is mimimi my op class gets adjusted
i wont judge people, anyone goes at his pace, you not in position to troll me with a rr6 ranger and rr9 hunter on negative k/d ratio
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Keriala
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Horg
How do you say ? lul maybe gitgut ?

LOL?
Do you know anything about his play style? When he can play, etc? If you play an average class solo, in prime time, how can you do good in terms of stats? Also the number of people stealing your solo kills by leeching are insane.
You are ridiculous. And lol the ranger that perma snare the mincer, when you can snare him too...
I can show you my stats, and they will be meaningless to compare because I killed a lot of xpers...

I never checked
But I can’t imagine how long it would take me to even up the ratio after all the solo deaths I took gerri g to RR4/50
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:35 AM by gotwqqd
Cash wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 7:30 PM
As a BD I understand nerfing the solo ability of BD and minstrel but BDs are not as OP in group. Mids advantage is push rupt to combat alb range and pet numbers and hibs cc and sustain. Nerfing the timer limits mid hybrids while giving albs things like friar proc and hibs things like extra NS clear on the pbt toon. This seems like a realm imbalance. Mid 8 mans are getting nerfed when alb caster groups and hib 5 natty groups are already very strong.

Why not adjust the timer based on spec? 1st LT is 6 sec, 37 spec is 5 sec which is what most 8 man bds run, so they lose a little rupt and 25% dmg, the 47 could be 4 sec but they'd have to sacrifice dd and pet dmg to do it. You could even put it at 48 supp. That way you can choose to be a caster for dmg OR be solo spec/group rupter but not both

This would nerf the plethora of bds out there but still allow mids to run push/rupt hybrid groups

Also, necros are just as OP in solo so why bd/minst solo nerf but no necro?

Thanks
How about leave as is but reduce damage by 33%?
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:53 AM by The Skies Asunder
Perhaps I am too old, or don't care enough in general, but I can't read through this entire thread.

As far as the changes go, I think most of them are probably good. At least on paper. I don't think the Warden buff is the right direction to go with them at all, but if that's the only place the devs want to take them, then I guess it's at least something. Paladin could probably just get an instant heal with a cooldown in addition to the chant as well.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:03 AM by Spiegal
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 Way too strong
- bleeds no longer break cc Yes, I would be content with just that to begin with, it's already a change in the mechanics


Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
Why toying with the basic mechanics and Changing the state of classic... I wouldn't put delays...yes to adjust damage, but stop there.

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds
Why on earth do you want to nerf one of their core abilities? They have no cc and their pet dies by sneezing at them. After seeing the huge buff on wizard, I'm baffled to see this change. Now that the Albs have range mezz + 2 Near Sight users, 2 cure NS, range spammable pet, you want to delay a single target rupting ability for mid?
This is a biased change and there's no thinking on the RvR grand picture, Which is the main focus on this server


Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line
Sure, how about giving shaman a cure nearsight then? So all realms will have 2 cure nearsight users, seems balanced this way

Fix GTAoE, Fix Necro, balance RvR abilities arsenal
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:35 AM by tommccartney
The fact the opening post currently has 2 likes speaks volumes :/
Thu 18 Jun 2020 6:32 AM by Razur Ur
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:35 AM
The fact the opening post currently has 2 likes speaks volumes :/

now have three likes :-D
Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:23 AM by Iuppiter
If minstrel mechanic changes in this way devs need to decide where they expect minstrel to play and offer some balance in return. Is it in the frontline meleeing/rupting with their 700 range dds? then they need det like a skald. Is it playing more passive/support? then they need longer range rupts and/or faster mezzing like a bard. Otherwise this change leaves minstrels in an odd spot of having to be mostly up front like a skald but with the cc vulnerability of a bard and after the first round of purge they will be nullified every fight. Or just replace minstrel class with the bard class to make it even-stevens /shrug
Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:28 AM by Razur Ur
Iuppiter wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:23 AM
If minstrel mechanic changes in this way devs need to decide where they expect minstrel to play and offer some balance in return. Is it in the frontline meleeing/rupting with their 700 range dds? then they need det like a skald. Is it playing more passive/support? then they need longer range rupts and/or faster mezzing like a bard. Otherwise this change leaves minstrels in an odd spot of having to be mostly up front like a skald but with the cc vulnerability of a bard and after the first round of purge they will be nullified every fight. Or just replace minstrel class with the bard class to make it even-stevens /shrug

I agree with range dd but the mezz range of the minstrel fits because it can mezz a target while running.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:37 AM by roope
Dont destroy the resist twist on skalds!
Its literally their only purpose during sieges (attack or defend) to twist resists, if theres no healer+shaman to put it up anyway. Why destroy casual PUGs?
This would promote leetism and further enhance elitist cherry picking mentality.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:51 AM by Iuppiter
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range

I'm actually curious how this mechanic will work...because this seems like classes with caster pets are getting a non-negligible nerf. In my experience if the target is farther than 1500 they run to about 1500 range and start casting (caba/ench/theurg ice/bd casters/charmed casting pets), but does this change mean you can essentially kite every time you see the pet casting and the pet will never hit you? How intelligent will pets be if you run out of range/sight mid-cast? will they stop and regain range/sight? or maybe do they get closer to begin with (~1k units instead of max range) with the hopes that they will complete the cast before the target is out of range/LoS? I understand in most cases the classes with caster pets might be kiting (bd the notable exception in certain setups) but overall this would change how I would react to getting stuck with an ench/cab/bd pet.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:59 AM by Elelish
Iuppiter wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:51 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range

I'm actually curious how this mechanic will work...because this seems like classes with caster pets are getting a non-negligible nerf. In my experience if the target is farther than 1500 they run to about 1500 range and start casting (caba/ench/theurg ice/bd casters/charmed casting pets), but does this change mean you can essentially kite every time you see the pet casting and the pet will never hit you? How intelligent will pets be if you run out of range/sight mid-cast? will they stop and regain range/sight? or maybe do they get closer to begin with (~1k units instead of max range) with the hopes that they will complete the cast before the target is out of range/LoS? I understand in most cases the classes with caster pets might be kiting (bd the notable exception in certain setups) but overall this would change how I would react to getting stuck with an ench/cab/bd pet.

I can be sure to tell you that pets will do NOTHING of what you said, they will keep the same pet AI so it is impossible to change that behaviour without changing the pet AI. They will, as you said, get into range to cast and start casting instantly...if the enemy moves 1 unit away the pet will interrupt its own cast, move 1 unit closer, and try to cast again.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:24 AM by asnusia
Assassins (always been OP in this server) can now pa after -500hp of con debuff so you start the fight half dead... they only needs 1 max 2 swing and viper dot (5 tick *100+dmg) and you are dead

but the problem are archers and bow dmg too high
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:46 AM by Wasa
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range => good++
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200 => then each weapon skill lines need at least one anytimer with bleed - 200sh tick every 4sec way to much
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break cc => bad nerf - breaking cc should stay as it is now
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications => why only CS opener? This is disedvantages LA
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15% => disadvantages LA at all, way to much

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds => don‘t pls, BDs utility! better reduce damage (slightly) instead

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power
- Removed Mastery of Magery

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost
=> aks the Pala community better
Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line

Summarising I would prefer class specific changes to discuss with experienced and obviously "common“ players. Not only the fotm pro speed player ^^ Need to get structurised and neutral (so it‘s possible) feedback, I suggest.
Thanks


Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:47 AM by Noashakra
asnusia wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:24 AM
Assassins (always been OP in this server) can now pa after -500hp of con debuff so you start the fight half dead... they only needs 1 max 2 swing and viper dot (5 tick *100+dmg) and you are dead

but the problem are archers and bow dmg too high

lol 500, get your numbers straight, it would help your credibilty. At the moment, your PA hits around 300/400 without crit depending on the target and it's more or less the value of the debuff.
Asn are in a really good spot, but they are not OP by any means...
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:14 AM by kleiner070879
Hmm i dont understand why BD get nerverd again....midgard is not really the overpoverd realm on Phoenix....Minstrel nerv is fine, this class was too powerfull (already saw 3 minstrels in a good 8man grp, that was a pain)....nearsightheal on warden is good, but healprocc from friar a spreadheal? hmm ok
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:46 AM by Stynkfyst28
So whats the pally heal going to delve for if its a instant heal with a 60 second cd? Right now heal chant does two ticks if you run it last chant. Each tick does 48 health. So in 8 second you get two ticks for 48. If my math Is correct in one minute the heal chant does 720 hp not affected by disease. This would need to make the delve on this heal you purpose pretty high and i bet that will not happen. So yes this is a nerf.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:50 AM by Sek
Devs are forcing the community to take a summer break, what a delicate attention.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:00 AM by tommccartney
Razur Ur wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 6:32 AM
tommccartney wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:35 AM
The fact the opening post currently has 2 likes speaks volumes :/

now have three likes :-D

Damn it
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:01 AM by Noashakra
Sek wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:50 AM
Devs are forcing the community to take a summer break, what a delicate attention.

A summer without ministrels, a dream coming true.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:23 AM by Ormilig
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:46 AM
So whats the pally heal going to delve for if its a instant heal with a 60 second cd? Right now heal chant does two ticks if you run it last chant. Each tick does 48 health. So in 8 second you get two ticks for 48. If my math Is correct in one minute the heal chant does 720 hp not affected by disease. This would need to make the delve on this heal you purpose pretty high and i bet that will not happen. So yes this is a nerf.

Yes it would be a nerf IF you would run healchant FOR ONE MINUTE. But that leads to the question why on earth would you do that?
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:25 AM by janclode
rien pour scout ?
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:36 AM by Saroi
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:47 AM
asnusia wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:24 AM
Assassins (always been OP in this server) can now pa after -500hp of con debuff so you start the fight half dead... they only needs 1 max 2 swing and viper dot (5 tick *100+dmg) and you are dead

but the problem are archers and bow dmg too high

lol 500, get your numbers straight, it would help your credibilty. At the moment, your PA hits around 300/400 without crit depending on the target and it's more or less the value of the debuff.
Asn are in a really good spot, but they are not OP by any means...

The 500 he wrote was about con debuff not the PA damage. And the number seems pretty fine to me. SB's lose 494 HP from ws/con debuff, with my Berserker I lose 572 HP. I assume that Fulltanks like Warriors lose even over 600 HP because of higher HP scaling. With a reduction of 15% on the con part, the debuff value will be at around 100 instead of 118. So tanks will still be 500 HP lost, me as SB maybe around 440-450 and lower scaling casters 400 or a bit lower.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:39 AM by inoeth
Ormilig wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:23 AM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:46 AM
So whats the pally heal going to delve for if its a instant heal with a 60 second cd? Right now heal chant does two ticks if you run it last chant. Each tick does 48 health. So in 8 second you get two ticks for 48. If my math Is correct in one minute the heal chant does 720 hp not affected by disease. This would need to make the delve on this heal you purpose pretty high and i bet that will not happen. So yes this is a nerf.

Yes it would be a nerf IF you would run healchant FOR ONE MINUTE. But that leads to the question why on earth would you do that?

incorrect, maybe get a little deeper into the chant mechanic dude
Thu 18 Jun 2020 11:26 AM by Noashakra
Saroi wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:36 AM
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:47 AM
asnusia wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:24 AM
Assassins (always been OP in this server) can now pa after -500hp of con debuff so you start the fight half dead... they only needs 1 max 2 swing and viper dot (5 tick *100+dmg) and you are dead

but the problem are archers and bow dmg too high

lol 500, get your numbers straight, it would help your credibilty. At the moment, your PA hits around 300/400 without crit depending on the target and it's more or less the value of the debuff.
Asn are in a really good spot, but they are not OP by any means...

The 500 he wrote was about con debuff not the PA damage. And the number seems pretty fine to me. SB's lose 494 HP from ws/con debuff, with my Berserker I lose 572 HP. I assume that Fulltanks like Warriors lose even over 600 HP because of higher HP scaling. With a reduction of 15% on the con part, the debuff value will be at around 100 instead of 118. So tanks will still be 500 HP lost, me as SB maybe around 440-450 and lower scaling casters 400 or a bit lower.

Ok but his class to be half dead should be caster maybe? Otherwise he is overdramatic, because it's 1/4 of your hp pool.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 11:38 AM by Ormilig
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:39 AM
Ormilig wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:23 AM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:46 AM
So whats the pally heal going to delve for if its a instant heal with a 60 second cd? Right now heal chant does two ticks if you run it last chant. Each tick does 48 health. So in 8 second you get two ticks for 48. If my math Is correct in one minute the heal chant does 720 hp not affected by disease. This would need to make the delve on this heal you purpose pretty high and i bet that will not happen. So yes this is a nerf.

Yes it would be a nerf IF you would run healchant FOR ONE MINUTE. But that leads to the question why on earth would you do that?

incorrect, maybe get a little deeper into the chant mechanic dude

Ok sure, i might have been incorrect about the chant mechanic, it's still a shitty heal compared to a group instant heal which could actually save someone in need. Those 48 hp ticks wont keep you alive.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:02 PM by inoeth
Ormilig wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 11:38 AM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:39 AM
Ormilig wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:23 AM
Yes it would be a nerf IF you would run healchant FOR ONE MINUTE. But that leads to the question why on earth would you do that?

incorrect, maybe get a little deeper into the chant mechanic dude

Ok sure, i might have been incorrect about the chant mechanic, it's still a shitty heal compared to a group instant heal which could actually save someone in need. Those 48 hp ticks wont keep you alive.

ehm... it does heal for around 720 per minute, that is far from "wont keep you alive"
an insta heal should then at least heal for that amount
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:17 PM by Ele
inoeth wrote: ehm... it does heal for around 720 per minute, that is far from "wont keep you alive"
an insta heal should then at least heal for that amount
I can't really argue with that math. I've goofed around on my paly every now and then, and the heal chant really adds up in prolonged fights, which tend to happen often, as a pally, even with higher dmg table etc, never kills fast in 1v1. While I agree that there has to be some kind of compensation, I wouldn't consider implementing a group instant on a 1 minute timer with such a high value. You'd have to spec VR 3 to get a comparable heal, and this is on a 10 minute timer and 15 RA points invested.
Sure, paly can use some love, but this would be a bit over the top.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:37 PM by inoeth
Ele wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:17 PM
inoeth wrote: ehm... it does heal for around 720 per minute, that is far from "wont keep you alive"
an insta heal should then at least heal for that amount
I can't really argue with that math. I've goofed around on my paly every now and then, and the heal chant really adds up in prolonged fights, which tend to happen often, as a pally, even with higher dmg table etc, never kills fast in 1v1. While I agree that there has to be some kind of compensation, I wouldn't consider implementing a group instant on a 1 minute timer with such a high value. You'd have to spec VR 3 to get a comparable heal, and this is on a 10 minute timer and 15 RA points invested.
Sure, paly can use some love, but this would be a bit over the top.

the biggest problem i see there, if it was an actual heal, is that you also need to consider acuity in your temp for the heal to be effective.... which kind of sucks because i bet there is no pala atm who has that, me included
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:44 PM by Vkejai
Bonedancer nerf again... nerf wizards first please.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:45 PM by borodino1812
Not sure about those changes to the paladin, but the minstrel change is long overdue.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:50 PM by Ele
inoeth wrote: [...]
the biggest problem i see there, if it was an actual heal, is that you also need to consider acuity in your temp for the heal to be effective.... which kind of sucks because i bet there is no pala atm who has that, me included

Acuity doesn't influence heals.
Edit: typo...
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:56 PM by Saroi
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 11:26 AM
Ok but his class to be half dead should be caster maybe? Otherwise he is overdramatic, because it's 1/4 of your hp pool.

In this case he was talking about con debuff and then PA in combine. Casters have around 1400ish-1500ish HP, so 400ish con debuff + another 300-400 damage from PA would be half HP. As for me since I am slash vulnerable I can get around 550 PA's without crits if enemy has 50 CS and 4.2 weapon atm. If you consider let's say 430 HP from the new con debuff poison and let us say 500 PA damage because of the scaling change, then it will be near 1k damage I can get and it is near half my health.

You as a NS with the lower HP scaling and resistant to slash will be probably around 800-850 from the combined con debuff and PA.

Looking at tanks: With 500HP from con debuff for Lighttanks, maybe 550HP from con debuff for full tanks + 200-350 PA damage depending on armor, resistant etc. that would be like 1/3 combined.

I don't really think it is overdamatic. THe change would actually be really huge in terms of health lost. The thing is PA as its own doesn't do that great damage and surely needs a buff but the buff should only affect vulnerable targets like casters and not be able to shred through a lot of health from tanks too.

On a side note: In term of Stealthfights, this is a huge buff for NS since lower HP scaling and resistant to slash means lesser combined damage, a good buff for Inf. Mid stealthers always have had the bigger HP pool so we lose more HP from con debuffs. Since we are slash vulnerable(Most enemies are slash), we also take more damage. With the planned change we get hit by the double negative.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:02 PM by Saroi
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:37 PM
Ele wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:17 PM
inoeth wrote: ehm... it does heal for around 720 per minute, that is far from "wont keep you alive"
an insta heal should then at least heal for that amount
I can't really argue with that math. I've goofed around on my paly every now and then, and the heal chant really adds up in prolonged fights, which tend to happen often, as a pally, even with higher dmg table etc, never kills fast in 1v1. While I agree that there has to be some kind of compensation, I wouldn't consider implementing a group instant on a 1 minute timer with such a high value. You'd have to spec VR 3 to get a comparable heal, and this is on a 10 minute timer and 15 RA points invested.
Sure, paly can use some love, but this would be a bit over the top.

the biggest problem i see there, if it was an actual heal, is that you also need to consider acuity in your temp for the heal to be effective.... which kind of sucks because i bet there is no pala atm who has that, me included

I have a 50 Pala who I played a few month ago and I made a temp with 75 Piety(acuity) and weaponless. Did cost me about 80p with some 90+ Rogs.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:18 PM by japdupadulap
- bleeds no longer break cc !!! wtf !!!

- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet !!! i dont see this as a nerf . they will release the pet and the they can simply attack him and recharm it !!! A better solution for this is a 30 seconds reuse charm or charm imunity for 1 min

- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line !!! since every realm has like 2 classes that can cure nearsight maybe a shammy can get it too !!!
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:47 PM by radix
Why do people ask for NS cure for shaman. There is no viable spec unless you add NS cure as a baseline spell.

Also Minstrels asking for "delete that class finally, you already nerfed it to death" are just pathetic. You need better coordination / group-play, but you can still use most of your tactics in the future. Just need to purge more often (or use SOS just for yourself when you are overextending/rooted and need to catch up) .
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:47 PM by Noashakra
Saroi wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:56 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 11:26 AM
Ok but his class to be half dead should be caster maybe? Otherwise he is overdramatic, because it's 1/4 of your hp pool.

In this case he was talking about con debuff and then PA in combine. Casters have around 1400ish-1500ish HP, so 400ish con debuff + another 300-400 damage from PA would be half HP. As for me since I am slash vulnerable I can get around 550 PA's without crits if enemy has 50 CS and 4.2 weapon atm. If you consider let's say 430 HP from the new con debuff poison and let us say 500 PA damage because of the scaling change, then it will be near 1k damage I can get and it is near half my health.

You as a NS with the lower HP scaling and resistant to slash will be probably around 800-850 from the combined con debuff and PA.

Looking at tanks: With 500HP from con debuff for Lighttanks, maybe 550HP from con debuff for full tanks + 200-350 PA damage depending on armor, resistant etc. that would be like 1/3 combined.

I don't really think it is overdamatic. THe change would actually be really huge in terms of health lost. The thing is PA as its own doesn't do that great damage and surely needs a buff but the buff should only affect vulnerable targets like casters and not be able to shred through a lot of health from tanks too.

On a side note: In term of Stealthfights, this is a huge buff for NS since lower HP scaling and resistant to slash means lesser combined damage, a good buff for Inf. Mid stealthers always have had the bigger HP pool so we lose more HP from con debuffs. Since we are slash vulnerable(Most enemies are slash), we also take more damage. With the planned change we get hit by the double negative.

He was speaking of the old PA.
I don't think PA damage should be buffed by a lot if they take the new approach, maybe 100dmg max vs the old PA+debuff. but the pay off for landing the PA should be there vs just applying the poison.
Yes it's a slight nerf to the shadowzerk, but I think it's normal that opening with an anytimer should be less rewarding.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:55 PM by Delegator
radix wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:47 PM
Why do people ask for NS cure for shaman. There is no viable spec unless you add NS cure as a baseline spell.

I agree and disagree. I have 2 level 50 shaman. One is 37 Aug/35 Heal, getting the second group Friggs at 36 and yellow buffs. If he had the level 20 NS cure, even with its 6s casting time, it would be a help. (My other is 46 cave/27 aug, and wouldn't benefit at all).

You are absolutely right that the level 40 NS cure would never be used. But the level 20 would be in some cases. Even though the Aug/Cave spec is probably the most common followed by full cave in RVR, some Aug/Mend shammies do exist.

The other thing is that the real thing lacking in mend spec for shaman, like every other secondary healer (Warden, Mentalist, SM, Friar, Paladin) is any sort of insta. It's even worse for the non-cloth secondary healers because they don't even get quickcast. What shaman heal spec needs is something more akin to the friar melee proc (but that wouldn't work for shaman because they can't spec weapons and whiff far too often). I would say something like an insta-group regen at a low level, or a defensive proc, or something like that. Something that would be specific to the class and really fit what a shaman is.

But I don't expect that to happen, because as stated above, shaman with mend spec are about as common as hens' teeth.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:10 PM by Delegator
Much has been said already, and some of this just reinforces others' views, but:

Mastery of Arcane no longer affecting item/pot buffs: this is a big nerf to stealthers, who cannot depend on group buffs. Is this intended?

Bonedancer lifedrain nerf: makes sup spec non-viable in my opinion, because sup already has no other real source of damage, CC or AE. OK, so sup spec BDs are hard to kill, but as others have said...necros?

Overall, with all the style changes, bleed changes, class changes and RA changes, it seems that a free realm respec and skill respec should be granted to everybody. Unless, like so much else of late, this is meant to be a money sink.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:34 PM by Eidorf
I find the assassin changes just crazy...

- Assassins will have more poison ticks in any given period.
- Assassin PA will hit harder in the vast majority of cases.
- Assassin con debuff poison now applies before the weapon damage (which defies all logic) effectively boosting PA damage even further.

All this on a class that has little problem beating any melee class even without PA. Not bad for a class that's on the same damage table as a warden (or should be).
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:51 PM by asnusia
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 11:26 AM
Saroi wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:36 AM
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:47 AM
lol 500, get your numbers straight, it would help your credibilty. At the moment, your PA hits around 300/400 without crit depending on the target and it's more or less the value of the debuff.
Asn are in a really good spot, but they are not OP by any means...

The 500 he wrote was about con debuff not the PA damage. And the number seems pretty fine to me. SB's lose 494 HP from ws/con debuff, with my Berserker I lose 572 HP. I assume that Fulltanks like Warriors lose even over 600 HP because of higher HP scaling. With a reduction of 15% on the con part, the debuff value will be at around 100 instead of 118. So tanks will still be 500 HP lost, me as SB maybe around 440-450 and lower scaling casters 400 or a bit lower.

Ok but his class to be half dead should be caster maybe? Otherwise he is overdramatic, because it's 1/4 of your hp pool.

now
player with 2k hp hitted by a pa (you says 400 dmg)
-400 pa dmg = 1600 hp left
-500 con debuff poison = 1500 hp left because con debuff is applyed after pa dmg

player with 2k hp after this change:
-con debuff poison (500) = 1500
-pa dmg buffed (500?) = 1000 (because pa dmg is applyed after con debuff poison)
-5*100 viper ticks= 500 hp left
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:53 PM by Noashakra
First you don't know how they will change PA damages. I doubt the PA will remove 1000hp total in the end.
Also they said they would nerf the constit poison by 15%, so why your 500hp loss stay at 500 in the 2nd example???

Second, why do you speak about dots lol, we were speaking about PA. Viper 5 is 30 points of RA, Should we speak about PD on mages, TS with stun immunity reset or reflex attack that remove 40% of my life on a zerk afk?

If they want to boost the PA and nerf the WS/c poison, it's fine but we should go to a boost of damages on PA+poison of 100dmg maximum vs the old PA
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:00 PM by asnusia
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:53 PM
First you don't know how they will change PA damages. I doubt the PA will remove 1000hp total in the end.

Second, why do you speak about dots lol, we were speaking about PA. Viper 5 is 30 points of RA, Should we speak about PD on mages, TS with stun immunity reset or reflex attack that remove 40% of my life on a zerk afk?

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

this change makes pa dmg op because pa dmg now is added with the hp you lose with con debuff poison, before this change the pa dmg is "absorbed" by the hp portion you lose with the con debuff poison
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:39 PM by Wasa
Everybody is talking about PA/BS as about an anytimer.

1st. Assassins has to place PA/BS perfectly, before it has an effect. And also have to spend points in CS wich needed elsewhere to do constantly higher damage
2nd. W/c debuff will be nerfed and also still can be resisted without doing any harm
3rd. To reset an damage that is allready done to zero (as in currently) was a bug imo and it‘s just fair to fix it. So it is very good that finally enervating poison is effecting this way.

It is not as easy as you may think, to really DO this ammount of damage. Sounds all very theoretical. And it‘s only the opener, fight still is‘nt won.

Shall we talk about cast damage, cast speed, baseline stun + nukes? All cc‘s, shields, pets and more..?
Shall we talk about 300sh hits from Friar and others?
Everyone has some strong skills and in the same way some weakness. And we all have to work with that. But please stay fair at all.

There are so many things to be taken into acct, when talking about balacing...
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:46 PM by Noashakra
The assassins are in a good spot, if you buff the PA too much, it's bad for the balance of the game. 350 life points with the buff and then 400 damage would already be insane compared to now. The problem is that if PA damage is too low and your poison is resisted, you are in a bad shape.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:50 PM by Demaischler
Btw we should get rid of these level based charms, make all charms based on the skilllevel, so every1 has access to lvl 50+ pets like the minstrel
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:51 PM by Noashakra
Demaischler wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:50 PM
Btw we should get rid of these level based charms, make all charms based on the skilllevel, so every1 has access to lvl 50+ pets like the minstrel

Double post
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:52 PM by Noashakra
Demaischler wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:50 PM
Btw we should get rid of these level based charms, make all charms based on the skilllevel, so every1 has access to lvl 50+ pets like the minstrel

it's already the case man. The level of the charm for the menta is only linked to the type of mobs, and the higher level the charm is, the more mana it costs.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:57 PM by inoeth
Wasa wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:39 PM
Everybody is talking about PA/BS as about an anytimer.

1st. Assassins has to place PA/BS perfectly, before it has an effect. And also have to spend points in CS wich needed elsewhere to do constantly higher damage
2nd. W/c debuff will be nerfed and also still can be resisted without doing any harm
3rd. To reset an damage that is allready done to zero (as in currently) was a bug imo and it‘s just fair to fix it. So it is very good that finally enervating poison is effecting this way.

It is not as easy as you may think, to really DO this ammount of damage. Sounds all very theoretical. And it‘s only the opener, fight still is‘nt won.

Shall we talk about cast damage, cast speed, baseline stun + nukes? All cc‘s, shields, pets and more..?
Shall we talk about 300sh hits from Friar and others?
Everyone has some strong skills and in the same way some weakness. And we all have to work with that. But please stay fair at all.

There are so many things to be taken into acct, when talking about balacing...

because you cant do it does not mean its hard....
actually its pretty easy to land pa or back stab
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:19 PM by Wasa
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:46 PM
The assassins are in a good spot, if you buff the PA too much, it's bad for the balance of the game. 350 life points with the buff and then 400 damage would already be insane compared to now. The problem is that if PA damage is too low and your poison is resisted, you are in a bad shape.

...just to repeat opinions won‘t make 'em true nor it becomes a fact...
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:22 PM by Sek
Can we remove charm spell on Minstrel, cap armor type to cloth and rename the class Minstroll, please say yes, please do it ! please please !
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:32 PM by Wasa
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:57 PM
Wasa wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:39 PM
Everybody is talking about PA/BS as about an anytimer.

1st. Assassins has to place PA/BS perfectly, before it has an effect. And also have to spend points in CS wich needed elsewhere to do constantly higher damage
2nd. W/c debuff will be nerfed and also still can be resisted without doing any harm
3rd. To reset an damage that is allready done to zero (as in currently) was a bug imo and it‘s just fair to fix it. So it is very good that finally enervating poison is effecting this way.

It is not as easy as you may think, to really DO this ammount of damage. Sounds all very theoretical. And it‘s only the opener, fight still is‘nt won.

Shall we talk about cast damage, cast speed, baseline stun + nukes? All cc‘s, shields, pets and more..?
Shall we talk about 300sh hits from Friar and others?
Everyone has some strong skills and in the same way some weakness. And we all have to work with that. But please stay fair at all.

There are so many things to be taken into acct, when talking about balacing...

because you cant do it does not mean its hard....
actually its pretty easy to land pa or back stab

Well, I‘m pretty sure I know what I‘m talking about.
Maybe if you avoid level-spots in FZ you would find some "harder" opponents

Kind Regards...
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:39 PM by bluefalcon420
Some of these changes are so fundamental and basic that changing them now seems like such a late slap in the face..

How many toons road the bs train to rr11 cuz lifebane was broken for a year+ or how menty and minstrel could just use a pet to clear all cc.

Did a gm switch toons and now it's suddenly OK to nerf?

Patch gets a big 'meh' from me, dawg
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:43 PM by Noashakra
Wasa wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:19 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:46 PM
The assassins are in a good spot, if you buff the PA too much, it's bad for the balance of the game. 350 life points with the buff and then 400 damage would already be insane compared to now. The problem is that if PA damage is too low and your poison is resisted, you are in a bad shape.

...just to repeat opinions won‘t make 'em true nor it becomes a fact...

I have a ranger melee and a NS, and the asn are in a good spot. I don't know a good assassin that would say otherwise.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:45 PM by Taniquetil
Like the thought process for most of the changes and good that you've clearly been listening to most of the conversations around classses on the forum, clearly. Well done.

1 Critique. The Paladin heal Nerf/Change is an absolute savagery to an already underplayed underloved class

For those worried about PA/BS it's probably a good thing.
Landing PA= Greater reward
Missing PA = will put the sin at a greater disadvantage than previously.

Before it really didnt matter if you hit or missed PA...at all.

Before this, if you really knew what you were doing on a sin you didnt really want to be PA opening vs a lot of classes. This should incentivise it again and puts some weight on actually landing PA in a sin/sin fight. See many reference videos..I often let (yes on purpose...click here) opponent assassin's PA me, knowing it'd give me the upper hand in a fight. Post this change I'm pretty sure I wont be doing that.


FYI Bluefalcon, this is actually a bit of a buff/fix to the way lifebane has been for the last year. Minor...but still an optimisation to work as it was intended to.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:06 PM by Bradekes
If you are adjusting Mastery of the Arcane to no longer affect item/potion buffs you need to make it worthwhile and affect any enhancement spell the class has, because you're removing a key feature of that realm ability.

Buff bonus affects items on live. If you remove that make it affect every single other buff the class has from ablative procs self buffs to damage adds/shields etc or else you should just remove it from the classes that really gain no benefit from it.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:15 PM by Moumoule
Taniquetil wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:45 PM
1 Critique. The Paladin heal Nerf/Change is an absolute savagery to an already underplayed underloved class

Do we know the value of the heal ?

If i missed it, sorry. If not, as long as we don't know the value, how can we pretend it's a nerf/buff in pve/solo/8 man ?

Edit: Even if we know the value, what is modifying it ? Piety ? Without more infos, it's just guessing ...
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:22 PM by Bradekes
Moumoule wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:15 PM
Taniquetil wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:45 PM
1 Critique. The Paladin heal Nerf/Change is an absolute savagery to an already underplayed underloved class

Do we know the value of the heal ?

If i missed it, sorry. If not, as long as we don't know the value, how can we pretend it's a nerf/buff in pve/solo/8 man ?

Edit: Even if we know the value, what is modifying it ? Piety ? Without more infos, it's just guessing ...

Heals aren't affected by acuity. Only spec. Acuity only affects offensive spell damage, power pool and concentration pool
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:44 PM by Stynkfyst28
Ormilig wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:23 AM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:46 AM
So whats the pally heal going to delve for if its a instant heal with a 60 second cd? Right now heal chant does two ticks if you run it last chant. Each tick does 48 health. So in 8 second you get two ticks for 48. If my math Is correct in one minute the heal chant does 720 hp not affected by disease. This would need to make the delve on this heal you purpose pretty high and i bet that will not happen. So yes this is a nerf.

Yes it would be a nerf IF you would run healchant FOR ONE MINUTE. But that leads to the question why on earth would you do that?

Why would hou not twist ur chants for a minute? Like do you know how to play? That was the dumbest thing i ever read
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:44 PM by inoeth
Wasa wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:32 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:57 PM
Wasa wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:39 PM
Everybody is talking about PA/BS as about an anytimer.

1st. Assassins has to place PA/BS perfectly, before it has an effect. And also have to spend points in CS wich needed elsewhere to do constantly higher damage
2nd. W/c debuff will be nerfed and also still can be resisted without doing any harm
3rd. To reset an damage that is allready done to zero (as in currently) was a bug imo and it‘s just fair to fix it. So it is very good that finally enervating poison is effecting this way.

It is not as easy as you may think, to really DO this ammount of damage. Sounds all very theoretical. And it‘s only the opener, fight still is‘nt won.

Shall we talk about cast damage, cast speed, baseline stun + nukes? All cc‘s, shields, pets and more..?
Shall we talk about 300sh hits from Friar and others?
Everyone has some strong skills and in the same way some weakness. And we all have to work with that. But please stay fair at all.

There are so many things to be taken into acct, when talking about balacing...

because you cant do it does not mean its hard....
actually its pretty easy to land pa or back stab

Well, I‘m pretty sure I know what I‘m talking about.
Maybe if you avoid level-spots in FZ you would find some "harder" opponents

Kind Regards...

rr7 sb 260 solo kills lul gitgut bro
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:45 PM by Stynkfyst28
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:39 AM
Ormilig wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:23 AM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:46 AM
So whats the pally heal going to delve for if its a instant heal with a 60 second cd? Right now heal chant does two ticks if you run it last chant. Each tick does 48 health. So in 8 second you get two ticks for 48. If my math Is correct in one minute the heal chant does 720 hp not affected by disease. This would need to make the delve on this heal you purpose pretty high and i bet that will not happen. So yes this is a nerf.

Yes it would be a nerf IF you would run healchant FOR ONE MINUTE. But that leads to the question why on earth would you do that?

incorrect, maybe get a little deeper into the chant mechanic dude
How is it incorrect? I just the testing and proved yes through a min if your twisting the whole min heal chant does 720 hp
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:50 PM by Stynkfyst28
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:39 AM
Ormilig wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:23 AM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:46 AM
So whats the pally heal going to delve for if its a instant heal with a 60 second cd? Right now heal chant does two ticks if you run it last chant. Each tick does 48 health. So in 8 second you get two ticks for 48. If my math Is correct in one minute the heal chant does 720 hp not affected by disease. This would need to make the delve on this heal you purpose pretty high and i bet that will not happen. So yes this is a nerf.

Yes it would be a nerf IF you would run healchant FOR ONE MINUTE. But that leads to the question why on earth would you do that?

incorrect, maybe get a little deeper into the chant mechanic dude

Pally chant recast is 8 seconds. In those 8 seconds you get two ticks from heal chant for 48 add those together you get 96 heal in 8 seconds. Than do 60 divided by 8 what do you get you get 7.5 take 7.5 x by 96 what do you get guys??? Thats right 720 hp a min
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:51 PM by inoeth
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:45 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:39 AM
Ormilig wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:23 AM
Yes it would be a nerf IF you would run healchant FOR ONE MINUTE. But that leads to the question why on earth would you do that?

incorrect, maybe get a little deeper into the chant mechanic dude
How is it incorrect? I just the testing and proved yes through a min if your twisting the whole min heal chant does 720 hp

the "incorrect" was not to you bro
Thu 18 Jun 2020 6:01 PM by Stynkfyst28
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:51 PM
Stynkfyst28 wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:45 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:39 AM
incorrect, maybe get a little deeper into the chant mechanic dude
How is it incorrect? I just the testing and proved yes through a min if your twisting the whole min heal chant does 720 hp

the "incorrect" was not to you bro

Mybad totally miss read it im a jack a**
Thu 18 Jun 2020 6:15 PM by Kaj
with all changes and custom sh*t … why dont you just add ToA ?! we want the mls and artis... and a lot of People want TOA, just do a vote - you will see


i mean when you nerf Chars like this and Change it from how they should be to how you want them to be because you lose to them then just add ml´s and artefacts please.

have a nice day, bye
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:23 PM by Kaziera
Hysh allready did this, but here are my 2 cents as a 8v8 nerd

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
dont care, i dont solo
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range
yes, when it comes with a change in Pet behavior. for example dont make the pet start casting again when it comes at 1500 range, let it walk a bit further, like to 1400 for some room to complete the cast. also dont change this for animists.
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
imo not a good change. while resist chants are clunky, and twisting aswell as twist macros area major PITA, this makes them even worse. it makes those classes really a button smasher, when the nukes fly in. and then BEWARE not to press it twice, otherwise u disable it again.
My suggeiston: make it a resist aura of maybe 5-7 percent depending on spec, that stacks with the resist buffs and has a really small radius

- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
interesting, but with the most styles having a bleed tick of less than 10, this would mean you would have to hit 20 styles or more. seems unreasonable
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
as long as the point above is not changed, this point is also pointless
- bleeds no longer break cc
now that would be a gamechanger. imo its not completeley unreasonable. maybe a Realistic aproach here would be interestin. something like it breaks mezz, but no snares and roots. i mean, who can sleep, when hes bleeding, right?
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delay
cant coment on that, no clue about sneaks

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below it
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds
its actually only a nerf to solo BDs since BDs in 8mans most powerfull weapons are the RAs and the debuffed root. any good BD player can play around the 6s cd when rupting

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500
good change, gives clerics a little more purpose than just heal, buff and stunbot. maybe as a little compensation for the Minstrel nerf and the lack of rupt at the minstrel side of an alb grp

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal
carefull there. if the value is too low its 100% useless. if its too high, its ridiculously OP. heal the whole grp from 10% to full in a few styles would be wrong. maybe a good value spread like 150 and a proc cooldown?

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power
- Removed Mastery of Magery
duh

Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
Yes, but only if alb grps are compensated. alb grps are in a good spot, but only because of minstrels and their ability to lock down multiple ppl. maybe cleric gets a little snare nuke on the smite line?

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
yes
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant
yes
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost
same as i said for friar. cant be the sum of all possible twist in 60s thats for sure. And to all the crybabys that see paly beeing destroyed by this, you guys are wrong. Giving pally an meaningfull instant heal helps in pve agro generation aswell as in any pvp combat, it makes it a proper usable tool, instead of a meaningless trickle of some hp.

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line
i like it. i think we will see a lot of hib grps with -1 nat drud and +1 tank/bard/caster more variety more better
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:56 PM by gotwqqd
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:06 PM
If you are adjusting Mastery of the Arcane to no longer affect item/potion buffs you need to make it worthwhile and affect any enhancement spell the class has, because you're removing a key feature of that realm ability.

Buff bonus affects items on live. If you remove that make it affect every single other buff the class has from ablative procs self buffs to damage adds/shields etc or else you should just remove it from the classes that really gain no benefit from it.
This should only be available to buff classes..the healers
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:58 PM by gotwqqd
Sek wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:22 PM
Can we remove charm spell on Minstrel, cap armor type to cloth and rename the class Minstroll, please say yes, please do it ! please please !

Stop your whining because you can no longer attack 3 enemies with impunity anymore
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM by joshisanonymous
As a solo caster, I think these are pretty reasonable changes.

On the minstrel change, those who think this breaks the class are way overstating things. You realize your class has a demezz spell, right? Also a crapload of other ways to interrupt on the fly without having a pet at all. And solo minstrels that have thought out their class will do just fine. I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.

On the BD change, I think this is reasonable. In solo play, 4 seconds means once the BD is in range of someone, they basically either run out of power or win. I know this because I've solo'd a BD here almost up to RR6. A 6 second recast on the insta means that there's a small possibility to get off a cast between instas. And I'm not too sure why people are saying that BDs are only good for interrupting in group settings; a split or dark spec BD that has their pets assist them is possibly the highest DPS nuker in Mid.

On the pet change, I'm not sure how I feel. It doesn't hurt me at all since my pet isn't a caster and in fact helps me when facing animists, enchanters, theurgists, and anyone who has charmed a caster pet, but maybe it'll help me too much? I dunno. I mean, no one is gonna be able to safely run through a pile of shrooms still, but the "just turned the corner" scenario won't be a death sentence anymore, and that's a big part of what makes animists effective. It doesn't seem as bad for enchanters and theurgists, though, since both have speed (I'm talking about solo play here). It's maybe a slight boon for melee when fighting these classes, but you still can't really kite either one and they'll still be able to kite you well. I think the class who's affected by this the most is solo BDs, but that's probably called for because, again, with the 4 second insta, as soon as someone gets into 1500 range, they're dead (can't run, can't attack), and this won't be heavily affected by a 6 second recast and pets that can no longer snare a fleeing target.

The biggest unknown here to me is what will happen with the assassin changes. It's like a mixed bag of nerfs and buffs whose impacts are hard to predict.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:56 PM by gotwqqd
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
As a solo caster, I think these are pretty reasonable changes.

On the minstrel change, those who think this breaks the class are way overstating things. You realize your class has a demezz spell, right? Also a crapload of other ways to interrupt on the fly without having a pet at all. And solo minstrels that have thought out their class will do just fine. I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.

On the BD change, I think this is reasonable. In solo play, 4 seconds means once the BD is in range of someone, they basically either run out of power or win. I know this because I've solo'd a BD here almost up to RR6. A 6 second recast on the insta means that there's a small possibility to get off a cast between instas. And I'm not too sure why people are saying that BDs are only good for interrupting in group settings; a split or dark spec BD that has their pets assist them is possibly the highest DPS nuker in Mid.

On the pet change, I'm not sure how I feel. It doesn't hurt me at all since my pet isn't a caster and in fact helps me when facing animists, enchanters, theurgists, and anyone who has charmed a caster pet, but maybe it'll help me too much? I dunno. I mean, no one is gonna be able to safely run through a pile of shrooms still, but the "just turned the corner" scenario won't be a death sentence anymore, and that's a big part of what makes animists effective. It doesn't seem as bad for enchanters and theurgists, though, since both have speed (I'm talking about solo play here). It's maybe a slight boon for melee when fighting these classes, but you still can't really kite either one and they'll still be able to kite you well. I think the class who's affected by this the most is solo BDs, but that's probably called for because, again, with the 4 second insta, as soon as someone gets into 1500 range, they're dead (can't run, can't attack), and this won't be heavily affected by a 6 second recast and pets that can no longer snare a fleeing target.

The biggest unknown here to me is what will happen with the assassin changes. It's like a mixed bag of nerfs and buffs whose impacts are hard to predict.
I’ve seen quite a few petless minstrels do quite fine
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:27 PM by Bradekes
gotwqqd wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:56 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:06 PM
If you are adjusting Mastery of the Arcane to no longer affect item/potion buffs you need to make it worthwhile and affect any enhancement spell the class has, because you're removing a key feature of that realm ability.

Buff bonus affects items on live. If you remove that make it affect every single other buff the class has from ablative procs self buffs to damage adds/shields etc or else you should just remove it from the classes that really gain no benefit from it.
This should only be available to buff classes..the healers

They should remove it from classes that have no sense having it, but they should not remove it's ability to affect item/potion buffs unless they replace some of the usefulness of the RA. Look at it from a self buffer standpoint. They have to spec for their self buffs, but healer/buffers get baseline buffs meaning they are going to benefit from the RA way more than let's say a thane which should also see it affect it's self DA and self energy debuff proc if they are going to make this change.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:50 PM by Demaischler
Noashakra wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:52 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:50 PM
Btw we should get rid of these level based charms, make all charms based on the skilllevel, so every1 has access to lvl 50+ pets like the minstrel

it's already the case man. The level of the charm for the menta is only linked to the type of mobs, and the higher level the charm is, the more mana it costs.

so, i would say just let the minstrel pet how it is now, but change the way to apply it, just let the minstrel CAST the charm ( if he releases the pet he has to CAST it again ) this way they could still get out of mezz with it, but couldnt send it on the enemy cause it keeps attacking the minstrel.

but that would also be unfair i imagine? if they have to cast the charm like every1 else? menta has to pay mana each pulse and hunter cant charm high lvl pets, but thats ok?
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:47 AM by Jingo NZ
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:27 PM
gotwqqd wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:56 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:06 PM
If you are adjusting Mastery of the Arcane to no longer affect item/potion buffs you need to make it worthwhile and affect any enhancement spell the class has, because you're removing a key feature of that realm ability.

Buff bonus affects items on live. If you remove that make it affect every single other buff the class has from ablative procs self buffs to damage adds/shields etc or else you should just remove it from the classes that really gain no benefit from it.
This should only be available to buff classes..the healers

They should remove it from classes that have no sense having it, but they should not remove it's ability to affect item/potion buffs unless they replace some of the usefulness of the RA. Look at it from a self buffer standpoint. They have to spec for their self buffs, but healer/buffers get baseline buffs meaning they are going to benefit from the RA way more than let's say a thane which should also see it affect it's self DA and self energy debuff proc if they are going to make this change.
The proposed change is a good one. Healer buff classes will continue to use it but all the others will have to spend their RAs more traditionally rather than stacking MoA in its current overtuned state. Look at the RA options for assassins before getting upset on what thanes can purchase.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:43 AM by Iuppiter
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
On the minstrel change, those who think this breaks the class are way overstating things. You realize your class has a demezz spell, right? Also a crapload of other ways to interrupt on the fly without having a pet at all. And solo minstrels that have thought out their class will do just fine. I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.

I'll reiterate my prior point : your "other ways to interrupt on the fly" include 4 spells that are 700 range and 1 spell that is a 3s pulse (though you can move while casting) at 1500 range. Show me another class that needs to be 700 units away to effectively do their job but has no det. I'm strictly thinking of how it impacts their group play; 1v1 they're fine and will still overperform.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 4:49 AM by judo
I just got a major chub.

Icing on the cake is BD lifetaps.

I love you guys.

-Bayou
Fri 19 Jun 2020 5:24 AM by judo
Kimahri wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:08 PM
Thoughts from a sin that will be taken with a grain of salt

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

General / Mechanics:
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items
melee hunter/ranger were already weaker than sins, bad change
- pets no longer complete their casts when the target goes out of line of sight or out of range
don't care
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
dumb change, it has always worked this way in the past
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200
buff for infs with dual shadows, but let's be real, 95% of infs are trash so they needed the help
- bleeds no longer instantly tick on reapplication
- bleeds no longer break ccdon't care
- envenom dot reapplications no longer restart the tick delayseems legit

Assassins (Infiltrator, Nightshade, Shadowblade):
- PA scaling has been fixed, more base damage, less increase per cs point, expect less damage above 60ish modified cs and more damage below itdon't understand why we are buffing putting less points into a spec and nerfing putting more, seems like this should work the opposite way
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications
I don't like this change, mostly because it is a buff for EU sins against NA sins when it comes to ping delay / perf reaction times.
There are specific players I never see before I consistently eat a perf from them, due to the fact that the server is in their basement or some shit. I find the current landscape nice because these fights are still winnable, however with these new changes I'm at a greater disadvantage simply due to location. My only motivation to play this game is sin vs sin fights, and this change simply eats away at that motivation. Overall a good change for sins I guess, but shitty change at the same time due to networking limitations in the real world

- Debuff poisons had their con debuff portion reduced by 15%
makes sense with opener changes

Bonedancer:
- Reuse delay of the instant lifedrain has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds
much deserved nerf, where is the necro/champ nerfs tho?

Cleric:
- Increased smite spell range to 1500
bayou buff ftw, well deserved

Friar:
- The heal proc is now a spreadheal instead of group heal
don't care

Healer:
- Removed Wild Power
- Removed Mastery of Magery
cool story bro
Minstrel:
- Pulse charm removal no longer removes negative effects from the former pet
hell yeah, death to all minstrels
Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chantawesome changes
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana costterrible change, old heal chant on a good paladin is scary AF

Warden:
- Added the level 20 and level 40 nearsight heal to the regrowth spec line
don't care



Thanks for the love!! 😘

-Bayou
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:04 AM by Elelish
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
On the BD change, I think this is reasonable. In solo play, 4 seconds means once the BD is in range of someone, they basically either run out of power or win. I know this because I've solo'd a BD here almost up to RR6. A 6 second recast on the insta means that there's a small possibility to get off a cast between instas. And I'm not too sure why people are saying that BDs are only good for interrupting in group settings; a split or dark spec BD that has their pets assist them is possibly the highest DPS nuker in Mid.


Just shows how reliable your information are.

So you played a BD up to rr6...so what, playtime of 40 hours on lvl50? You think this qualifies you as a competent bd player? lol

You obviously missed that they nefed the darkness pets into the ground, literally NOBODY runs them since then. BD are so far away from the biggest dps nuker in the game that its laughable reading your comment.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 7:38 AM by roope
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:34 AM
FunusGaming wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:24 AM
According to the official daoc documentation, the resist chants are supposed to have a duration per pulse.
Link
So if you are saying shouldnt you mean shouldnt on phoenix ?

Hm, it was ages ago when we first looked into it, will have to see if I can find the source again. Anyways, if it turns out to not be the case the resist chant change may or may not fall away as the only remaining reason for it would be the macro curbing.

Please do look into it, because im pretty sure the resist chants/songs were supposed to work in a way that the could be twistesd, both on paladins and skalds.

Afaik the restriction was that you could recast it every 8 seconds, and they lasted 5 seconds each time, so if you continously twist it like a machinr, you have resists for 5 sec and no resists for 3 sec.
(in reality, you cant twist them as precisely since no repeat/delay is allowed, so rather its like 5 secs resists then 5 secs no resists.)
Fri 19 Jun 2020 7:54 AM by Centenario
I think resist stacking instantaneously is not what is intended, should be adjusted. I agree with removing when the chant is removed, at least for skald because he already has huge utility with speed.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:00 AM by Wasa
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:44 PM
Wasa wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:32 PM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:57 PM
because you cant do it does not mean its hard....
actually its pretty easy to land pa or back stab

Well, I‘m pretty sure I know what I‘m talking about.
Maybe if you avoid level-spots in FZ you would find some "harder" opponents

Kind Regards...

rr7 sb 260 solo kills lul gitgut bro

That‘s my playstyle...so yes. Means almost 10% of all my kills were solo. I‘m fine with that number, regarding the high add-rates /shrug.

Ontopic:
Assassins here on Phoenix aren‘t that strong as they were on Live. But also they aren’t that bad (otherwise I wouldn‘t stay here).

I think they need a bit more of their power back, better stealth and better defense as well, but that‘s another topic.

Now just waiting and see in which way the changes will finally be applied and how it will effect...
I fear the worst and hope for the best.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:46 AM by roope
Centenario wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 7:54 AM
I think resist stacking instantaneously is not what is intended, should be adjusted. I agree with removing when the chant is removed, at least for skald because he already has huge utility with speed.

Not in siege fights bg rvr (attack or defend) . Which is the main thing on Phoenix. Realm vs Realm, keeps and relics.

You dont use speed there, all your spells are close range shouts again useless, no shield spec to block arrows.. So, youre just standing there, playing heal regen song, healing a whopping 25 health every 8 sec.

Thats the moment/situation when youd be twisting resists, to at least provide a very small protection from casts.

(if youve been stunned in the middle of a siege, you know that 10% extra resist will not keep you alive)

Also, 'supposed to work', Im pretty sure thats how it was working in 2001, original vanilla daoc. You cant get more closer to the developer's wish than that time.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:50 AM by Noashakra
Wasa wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:00 AM
inoeth wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:44 PM
Wasa wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 4:32 PM
Well, I‘m pretty sure I know what I‘m talking about.
Maybe if you avoid level-spots in FZ you would find some "harder" opponents

Kind Regards...

rr7 sb 260 solo kills lul gitgut bro

That‘s my playstyle...so yes. Means almost 10% of all my kills were solo. I‘m fine with that number, regarding the high add-rates /shrug.

Ontopic:
Assassins here on Phoenix aren‘t that strong as they were on Live. But also they aren’t that bad (otherwise I wouldn‘t stay here).

I think they need a bit more of their power back, better stealth and better defense as well, but that‘s another topic.

Now just waiting and see in which way the changes will finally be applied and how it will effect...
I fear the worst and hope for the best.

Assassins are in a really good state atm (source : I play a solo NS not even rr7 with over 650 solo kills). They should not be apex predators... In the end, if you want to make the PA better and nerf the ws/c poison, just make the PA damage higher and don't change the way poison is applied.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:52 AM by Centenario
roope wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:46 AM
Centenario wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 7:54 AM
I think resist stacking instantaneously is not what is intended, should be adjusted. I agree with removing when the chant is removed, at least for skald because he already has huge utility with speed.
Also, 'supposed to work', Im pretty sure thats how it was working in 2001, original vanilla daoc. You cant get more closer to the developer's wish than that time.

I am not talking about how it was working or developer wish, the resist is supposed to be used per situation basis instead of mindless spamming without concern.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:57 AM by gruenesschaf
Due to feedback not included today and under revision:
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost

Also updated the initial post.


Also as I already wrote somewhere in this thread regarding the PA / stealth opener change: please keep in mind that damage nerfs down the line are possible if it turns out to be a problem. This change here is now to signal the intent: making hitting a stealth opener meaningful. This was not the case when the con debuff poison did more than the stealth opener making an anytimer as useful as a stealth opener.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:20 AM by Sepplord
So the pet-nerf went in fully?
No pet-ai change for not starting cast at max-range?

Kite groups really needed kiting to become easier /s
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:26 AM by gruenesschaf
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:20 AM
So the pet-nerf went in fully?
No pet-ai change for not starting cast at max-range?

Kite groups really needed kiting to become easier /s

Pets will attempt to cast at max range and when that failed they will move closer before attempting the next cast, it's however still possible that this "closer" is still not enough but that means the target is constantly running away and we may or may not have to further decrease the range before a cast is attempted.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:54 AM by Sek
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
As a solo caster, I think these are pretty reasonable changes.

On the minstrel change, those who think this breaks the class are way overstating things. You realize your class has a demezz spell, right? Also a crapload of other ways to interrupt on the fly without having a pet at all. And solo minstrels that have thought out their class will do just fine. I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.



Congratulation live player, you have mastered Minstrel class by far, Minstrel duty is to rupt forward with his 2k hps and 50-100 melee dmg like skald hé ? right.

joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.


Phoenix multiple change custom patch level on live ? Were you able to solo anything without a pet ? All right.
I have grown an interest for naive players in here posting ridiculous comments, i may have identified the syndrom, it's called Selective amnesia.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:18 AM by jwalker
What is the justification for the Mastery of Arcana nerf?
- it ALWAYS have been working on items, here, on live and in all of daoc history
- MoA gets really poor without working on items, especially on higher levels - which do hurt the self buffing classes without RED buff
- the classes you hit the most are forced OUT of hybrid specs, therefore reducing spec options - was that intended?
- you nerf Hunters, Rangers, all solo caster, VW, champ, warden, small man bards, Thane, skald, small man healer, minstrel and paladin - was that really intended and if were is the justification? In the solo/smallman game that means all Assassins, full and light tanks, reaver, scout and savage are unchanged and therefore are indirectly buffed.
- For Hunter/ranger this change means higher MoA is trash (you loose around 16-32 stat points compared to now), as the point-reward is just not good enough anymore. Considering the poor archery "boost", was this nerf really needed?
- Then we have classes like Valewalker and Paladin with only 1-2 buffs working with new MoA - Do we see too many of these in the solo/smallman meta ? Don't think so. But MoA is now really trash for these effectively nerfing these classes in the solo game.

Suggestion: Give everyone access to a 20-25% buff mytherium that works like current MoA and remove Mastery of Arkana compeltely. This way everyone get's the same "bonus" while selfbuff receive the same %bonus without costing 2 full realm ranks
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:22 AM by lolhisup
I think the changes look nice.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:32 AM by inoeth
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:54 AM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
As a solo caster, I think these are pretty reasonable changes.

On the minstrel change, those who think this breaks the class are way overstating things. You realize your class has a demezz spell, right? Also a crapload of other ways to interrupt on the fly without having a pet at all. And solo minstrels that have thought out their class will do just fine. I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.



Congratulation live player, you have mastered Minstrel class by far, Minstrel duty is to rupt forward with his 2k hps and 50-100 melee dmg like skald hé ? right.

joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.


Phoenix multiple change custom patch level on live ? Were you able to solo anything without a pet ? All right.
I have grown an interest for naive players in here posting ridiculous comments, i may have identified the syndrom, it's called Selective amnesia.

hmm these tears taste so good, splendid!
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:48 AM by Sek
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:57 AM
Due to feedback not included today and under revision:
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost

This is great move not to ruin 2 out of 3 standard mechanic on these classes, can we talk about minstrel now ?
There are already 2 ways of neutralizing Minstrel's pet :
- Damage the pet before the pet attack its former owner
- Stun the minstrel ( above 6 seconds, based on already introduced custom charming spell tick ), mezz the pet or even both pet and owner.

The server mainly host a community of players that rather overwhelm and outnumber their opponents looking for cheap fun yet there is lately an increased amount of players seeking solo fun using solo porting zone rather than PVP instance while few other enjoy duo/trio up to smalll content

There are severals way to deal with anything already, this is the beauty of Dark age of Camelot, why would you unbalance the game by affecting 20 years old basic mechanic on a specific class ? You have already made numerous custom changes that directly affected Minstrel class.. People complaining about minstrel isn't new, it's part of the roleplay, the foundation of the game.

The current feeling is that there is no reward for people investing a lot of time and energy into their character, please reconsider it.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:54 AM by Noashakra
Solo fun vs a ministrel... You are delusional. You want to keep your class that is OP in groups and solo (2 ministrels per group is the norm dude, even in tank set ups, I never saw this shit on live...).
The cheap fun is playing a class that can do 2vs1 3vs1 and dominate everything in 8vs8... I don't care you invested time in the class. The balance of the game need the ministrel nerf, and the time you invested in the class will not change that.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:59 AM by Sek
I believe enlighten players wont take in count the comments from rangers/scouts that were just granted with an incredible up yet still spend their day camping a wall or a bridge if not the ck itself and with the same typical strategy, adding. Of course they dislike minstrel.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:01 AM by Noashakra
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:59 AM
I believe enlighten players wont take in count the comments from rangers/scouts that were just granted with an incredible up yet still spend their day camping a wall or a bridge if not the ck itself and with the same typical strategy, adding. Of course they dislike minstrel.

Don't know who you speak about, because horg and me are playing solo and we are not sniper spec. In fact, I didn't play ranger since the archery change. So try again.
I need more salt for my lasagna.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:03 AM by Kimahri
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:59 AM
I believe enlighten players wont take in count the comments from rangers/scouts that were just granted with an incredible up yet still spend their day camping a wall or a bridge if not the ck itself and with the same typical strategy, adding. Of course they dislike minstrel.

At least rangers fight to the death and can't Wilson away like a biznitch with SoS every time they start losing the fight, fkin minstrels
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:09 AM by inoeth
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:59 AM
I believe enlighten players wont take in count the comments from rangers/scouts that were just granted with an incredible up yet still spend their day camping a wall or a bridge if not the ck itself and with the same typical strategy, adding. Of course they dislike minstrel.

enlightened players can see that minstrel is over the top op and needs a nerf.
uhh hmm salty tears tasty tasty
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:10 AM by Sek
Vote to remove Minstrel class then, you fearless and skilled players !
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:12 AM by Kimahri
I hereby motion to remove minstrels, all in favor say I .

(Reads the room)

The I's have it, meeting adjourned.

(smashes gavel)
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:13 AM by Noashakra
It's funny because all the ministrels complain about how good their class was and it should be this way here.
They forget two key points :
They had to use diffrent instruments to charm / mez / etc, not a single harp
Macros were not allowed.

When a ministrel was mauling you to death it felt deserved (even if it was still frustrating) because if they made a mistake, it was a death sentence to them.
Here you play the assisted ministrel full of macro and you still want your class to be this monster it was before all those QoL improvement. Get rekt.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:16 AM by Sek
Noashakra plays a ranger and a mentalist, he knows everything related to macro, his opinion matters, listen to the boy.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:18 AM by Wasa
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:48 AM
The current feeling is that there is no reward for people investing a lot of time and energy into their character, please reconsider it.

...like to aggree with this.
Maybe more structurerd class specific feedback/communication with the community would be helpful. Smthg like class-boards in which changes/issues could be discussed and where player who are regular "using“ their (main-) chars will have more weight in decisions or somthg like that.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:28 AM by borodino1812
The minstrel changes are long overdue. It is the correct decision by the devs.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:38 AM by Sek
Wasa wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:18 AM
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:48 AM
The current feeling is that there is no reward for people investing a lot of time and energy into their character, please reconsider it.

...like to aggree with this.
Maybe more structurerd class specific feedback/communication with the community would be helpful. Smthg like class-boards in which changes/issues could be discussed and where player who are regular "using“ their (main-) chars will have more weight in decisions or somthg like that.

Devs wont take that in consideration as long casual yolo players with only a very old daoc live experience will comment in favor of such radical change, they not even honest with themselves, you cannot possibly compare 1.65 freeshard custom with live, this is no sense.. These persons are not objective, they have just grown an ego on a casual server such as Phoenix and therefore refuse to see their fun spoiled, this is selfish behavior dictated by fear and the lack of knowledge concerning one class, maybe just jealousy.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:41 AM by Noashakra
I am not comparing, it's THE MINISTRELS who usually use the 1.65 as a baseline and use this a counter argument against any nerf.
lol...
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:47 AM by Sek
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:41 AM
I am not comparing, it's THE MINISTRELS who usually use the 1.65 as a baseline and use this a counter argument against any nerf.
lol...

You are comparing live minstrel with phoenix minstrel.
Minstrel can use the 1.65 as a baseline since this server is on custom 1.65 patch.
Save the grievance for trolling topics and stay neutral on objective one, appreciated.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:07 PM by Noashakra
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:47 AM
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:41 AM
I am not comparing, it's THE MINISTRELS who usually use the 1.65 as a baseline and use this a counter argument against any nerf.
lol...

You are comparing live minstrel with phoenix minstrel.
Minstrel can use the 1.65 as a baseline since this server is on custom 1.65 patch.
Save the grievance for trolling topics and stay neutral on objective one, appreciated.

You are out of arguments, so you stawman me. Not surprise with your amount of salt.
1.65 > no harp, right or wrong? (it was introduced with ToA if I am right)
1.65 > no macro allowed, right or wrong?

MuUuUh 1.65!!!

The ministel was really strong, but it was balanced by the fact it was really hard to play.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:13 PM by Centenario
While I would agree that Minstrel is too dumbed down now and with macro its a piece of cake.
I would argue that this is a complete nerf without any gain on any other front...
To me the minstrel of alb has always been the archetype of the musketeer, so not necessarily the rat charmer ^^

Minstrel needs a boost or an upgrade somewhere else (fancy ideas):
- More evade ranks, 360 evade
- Access to parry and more points to spend
- Access to determination
- 3.0 cast time on aoe Mez instead of 5.0
- Champion-like debuffs
- Valewalker-like offensive proc
- Access to Flexible Weapons

Some groups have used Minstrel as main tank in DS lately, I would be happy to see the minstrel improved that way.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:48 PM by Cadebrennus
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200

Does this mean that the level 50 DW style for Mercs has been nerfed, while bleeds in general have been buffed for Infils? (Merc can get 250 total over 40 seconds with the level 50 DW style.)

You say that it stacks, so is that total of 200 over 40 seconds or is it 200 per 4 second tick?

Do identical styles (such as someone spamming Dual Shadows, either Merc or Infil) stack with each other or do they have to be different styles?
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:49 PM by Cadebrennus
Centenario wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:13 PM
While I would agree that Minstrel is too dumbed down now and with macro its a piece of cake.
I would argue that this is a complete nerf without any gain on any other front...
To me the minstrel of alb has always been the archetype of the musketeer, so not necessarily the rat charmer ^^

Minstrel needs a boost or an upgrade somewhere else (fancy ideas):
- More evade ranks, 360 evade
- Access to parry and more points to spend
- Access to determination
- 3.0 cast time on aoe Mez instead of 5.0
- Champion-like debuffs
- Valewalker-like offensive proc
- Access to Flexible Weapons

Some groups have used Minstrel as main tank in DS lately, I would be happy to see the minstrel improved that way.

I sincerely hope your post was in jest, because you forgot to add plate armor and dual wielding polearms.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:52 PM by dbeattie71
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:16 AM
Noashakra plays a ranger and a mentalist, he knows everything related to macro, his opinion matters, listen to the boy.

Why would anyone use macros for a ranger?
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:07 PM by joshisanonymous
Elelish wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:04 AM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
On the BD change, I think this is reasonable. In solo play, 4 seconds means once the BD is in range of someone, they basically either run out of power or win. I know this because I've solo'd a BD here almost up to RR6. A 6 second recast on the insta means that there's a small possibility to get off a cast between instas. And I'm not too sure why people are saying that BDs are only good for interrupting in group settings; a split or dark spec BD that has their pets assist them is possibly the highest DPS nuker in Mid.


Just shows how reliable your information are.

So you played a BD up to rr6...so what, playtime of 40 hours on lvl50? You think this qualifies you as a competent bd player? lol

You obviously missed that they nefed the darkness pets into the ground, literally NOBODY runs them since then. BD are so far away from the biggest dps nuker in the game that its laughable reading your comment.

Here's my BD: Rhing. Who the hell are you now?
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:10 PM by canzian
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:48 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200

Does this mean that the level 50 DW style for Mercs has been nerfed, while bleeds in general have been buffed for Infils? (Merc can get 250 total over 40 seconds with the level 50 DW style.)

You say that it stacks, so is that total of 200 over 40 seconds or is it 200 per 4 second tick?

Do identical styles (such as someone spamming Dual Shadows, either Merc or Infil) stack with each other or do they have to be different styles?

every style grow up bleed dmg... so after 8 duble shadow, bleed tick for 200 every 4 sec
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:14 PM by joshisanonymous
Iuppiter wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:43 AM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
On the minstrel change, those who think this breaks the class are way overstating things. You realize your class has a demezz spell, right? Also a crapload of other ways to interrupt on the fly without having a pet at all. And solo minstrels that have thought out their class will do just fine. I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.

I'll reiterate my prior point : your "other ways to interrupt on the fly" include 4 spells that are 700 range and 1 spell that is a 3s pulse (though you can move while casting) at 1500 range. Show me another class that needs to be 700 units away to effectively do their job but has no det. I'm strictly thinking of how it impacts their group play; 1v1 they're fine and will still overperform.

If you think you need your pet to be immune to all CC to be effective at interrupting with your tools, then you should consider playing a different class.

First of all, your pet will still clear your own CC, assuming you don't have purge up and it's either not a mez or your demezzers are all being interrupted themselves. You can also still clear the CC on your own pet unless it's a root. Even if it is a root, you can release the pet and grab a different one that's nearby in some cases. You also have control over SoS in your group. The idea that you're gonna be locked down as a minstrel because your INSTA interrupts are too short of range and you don't have Det is ridiculous.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:29 PM by ExcretusMaximus
According to people on my guild's Discord, testing has shown that the Minstrel pet still drops CC when released.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:40 PM by Wasa
canzian wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:10 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:48 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200


You say that it stacks, so is that total of 200 over 40 seconds or is it 200 per 4 second tick?

...

every style grow up bleed dmg... so after 8 duble shadow, bleed tick for 200 every 4 sec

Forget Lifebane+Viper_5+MOMagery
When infight the 200sh stacks, many classes can wrap themselves.
Not what I would like to see in this game.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:42 PM by joshisanonymous
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:54 AM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
As a solo caster, I think these are pretty reasonable changes.

On the minstrel change, those who think this breaks the class are way overstating things. You realize your class has a demezz spell, right? Also a crapload of other ways to interrupt on the fly without having a pet at all. And solo minstrels that have thought out their class will do just fine. I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.



Congratulation live player, you have mastered Minstrel class by far, Minstrel duty is to rupt forward with his 2k hps and 50-100 melee dmg like skald hé ? right.

joshisanonymous wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM
I mained a solo minstrel around this patch level on Live and there was basically nothing I didn't have a counter for 1v1 even without a pet.


Phoenix multiple change custom patch level on live ? Were you able to solo anything without a pet ? All right.
I have grown an interest for naive players in here posting ridiculous comments, i may have identified the syndrom, it's called Selective amnesia.

I'm guessing this is you? Sekots. If so, then I've played minstrel as much as you and definitely soloed on a minstrel much more than you. This probably explains why you think you need high damage to interrupt and why you think skalds apparently have a huge HP pool compared to minstrels.

Also, the changes to minstrels on Phoenix are not at all huge relative to what minstrels were like on Live shortly after the release of NF. The RAs are the same, save no RR5 which only mezzed pets. The spec lines are the same save for the fact that it's easier to hold charm here as you had to twist charm on Live at that time, which is the reason that pets were rarely used by minstrels back then. Even before that change on Phoenix, minstrels here would basically never fight without a pet because they could just use macros even if they wouldn't be able to put up with twisting otherwise. Any pet nerfs on Phoenix are related to this difference from Live back then, and the pets are really not that nerfed. For instance, an Ellyll sage can still heal through my nukes no problem, and it was never the overwhelming damage of pets that made them so powerful in the first place.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:49 PM by Sek
i am https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/kse & https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/boor on Phoenix server, its fine we will all reroll a skald or bow class and pretend to be a macro player.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:51 PM by Noashakra
You are Kse... It makes sense now...
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:52 PM by Saroi
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:48 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200

Does this mean that the level 50 DW style for Mercs has been nerfed, while bleeds in general have been buffed for Infils? (Merc can get 250 total over 40 seconds with the level 50 DW style.)

You say that it stacks, so is that total of 200 over 40 seconds or is it 200 per 4 second tick?

Do identical styles (such as someone spamming Dual Shadows, either Merc or Infil) stack with each other or do they have to be different styles?

I just did some testing, the way it works is you start with a bleed and it does damage, if you hit styles again with bleeds they will stack up for the next bleed damage. If you have merc with 25 damage, with resists of 26, would be 19 damage ticks.

So if you manage to hit 3 times you will have 57 bleed damage and that damage will tick all the way then.

https://imgur.com/a/XLe2g1A

After I stoped I had 9 ticks left with bleed damage. Looks like fun when you are playing Merc. With 26% resists 148 damage is max. And All bleeds had up, if you start with a bleed that does 8 damage and then use one with 5 bleed, the next tick will be 13 damage. If you hit 8 bleed damage and another 8 bleed damage you will have 16 tick on the next one.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:57 PM by Kaj
Kaj wrote:
Thu 18 Jun 2020 6:15 PM
with all changes and custom sh*t … why dont you just add ToA ?! we want the mls and artis... and a lot of People want TOA, just do a vote - you will see


i mean when you nerf Chars like this and Change it from how they should be to how you want them to be because you lose to them then just add ml´s and artefacts please.

have a nice day, bye


the most upvoted/liked comment so far here… just saying
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:06 PM by Cadebrennus
canzian wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:10 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:48 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
General / Mechanics:
- bleeds now stack, for pets / players up to a value of 200

Does this mean that the level 50 DW style for Mercs has been nerfed, while bleeds in general have been buffed for Infils? (Merc can get 250 total over 40 seconds with the level 50 DW style.)

You say that it stacks, so is that total of 200 over 40 seconds or is it 200 per 4 second tick?

Do identical styles (such as someone spamming Dual Shadows, either Merc or Infil) stack with each other or do they have to be different styles?

every style grow up bleed dmg... so after 8 duble shadow, bleed tick for 200 every 4 sec

Edit: It's been reduced to max 50 damage per tick. Much more balanced.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:07 PM by Sek
I gotta admit i am having a huge fan club as people can witness in here probably because of the huge difference in term of skills but that wont trouble me much as usual, i am not group nor zerg friendly not because i think high of myself, only because i think low about most pugs on phoenix.
See by yourself, second time in fg after 5 years break. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T35Fw_BKmO8&t

Come make love with me in private and leave that post clean, save minstrel for more drama stories !
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:46 PM by ularewolf
Sek wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:07 PM
I gotta admit i am having a huge fan club as people can witness in here probably because of the huge difference in term of skills but that wont trouble me much as usual, i am not group nor zerg friendly not because i think high of myself, only because i think low about most pugs on phoenix.
See by yourself, second time in fg after 5 years break. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T35Fw_BKmO8&t

Come make love with me in private and leave that post clean, save minstrel for more drama stories !

Narcissism won't get you far.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 4:17 PM by Bry
6s lifetap nerf does nothing btw; insta body debuff still interupts; the class is still broken until the body debuff doesn't interupt anymore.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 4:34 PM by Noashakra
You sent me in MP "i have proven myself through freeshards running or leading top 8v8 fixes."

It's funny because every time I hear people speaking about you, it's about how terrible you are...

So yeah all you QQ make sense.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 4:45 PM by Ceebee86
The LT has a 7 sec recast on it for some reason, not 6secs?

https://imgur.com/a/nkM8k86
Fri 19 Jun 2020 5:00 PM by Sek
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 4:34 PM
You sent me in MP "i have proven myself through freeshards running or leading top 8v8 fixes."

It's funny because every time I hear people speaking about you, it's about how terrible you are...

So yeah all you QQ make sense.

“ i played the game for 8years non stop, i was pro at a time till 2011” if you start with the quotes, we can spend quite some time there yet you were not accurate with my quote, i also said you had a big mouth and that you may want to use it wisely mr Hibernia is underpowered LOL. You have no experience at all on freeshard, you are only scared as hell when it comes to deal with minstrel, it is a videogame and all your comments are driven by the fear to see your ranger fun spoiled, you are not making any sense, you selfish cookie, now go fetch me a coffee and call it even.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 5:33 PM by chois
good to know than i can not play archer solo anymore, even my dog on my hunter is a suicide, evade on evade the hunter take all the blledings style on opening evade, nice changes! i need to evade to make bleedings ... good luck to evade with hunter:p
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:00 PM by inoeth
respeced my pala to 44 slash for bleed meta, but somehow it does not stack at all? highest bleed ticks i get is around 12???

another thing is: the bleed change does favor some classes heavily like infi and merc, others really fall behind like again hunters who also do not have an adequate ASR style... they rely on evade which they are naturally not good at. plz fix that in the upcoming style change
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:22 PM by stewbeedoo
The MOArc change cost my Ranger 19 stat points, as with the previous behavior you could get a little more stat points specing into MOArc than using Aug Str, Dex, etc.

So this is a bit of a nerf for me.

Time for an RA overhaul.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:06 PM by LatrommiSumac
stewbeedoo wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:22 PM
The MOArc change cost my Ranger 19 stat points, as with the previous behavior you could get a little more stat points specing into MOArc than using Aug Str, Dex, etc.

So this is a bit of a nerf for me.

Time for an RA overhaul.

From what I'm reading MoA shouldn't affect ranger buffs?
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:13 PM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:00 PM
respeced my pala to 44 slash for bleed meta, but somehow it does not stack at all? highest bleed ticks i get is around 12???

another thing is: the bleed change does favor some classes heavily like infi and merc, others really fall behind like again hunters who also do not have an adequate ASR style... they rely on evade which they are naturally not good at. plz fix that in the upcoming style change

It's 13 per tick on Infil.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:16 PM by Cadebrennus
LatrommiSumac wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:06 PM
stewbeedoo wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:22 PM
The MOArc change cost my Ranger 19 stat points, as with the previous behavior you could get a little more stat points specing into MOArc than using Aug Str, Dex, etc.

So this is a bit of a nerf for me.

Time for an RA overhaul.

From what I'm reading MoA shouldn't affect ranger buffs?

It doesn't. It affects Rangers using pots instead of PF buffs. However the Ranger buffs aren't worth using when you consider the spec point cost. This change is a definite and direct nerf to Rangers, and it wasn't accidental.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:56 PM by LatrommiSumac
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:16 PM
LatrommiSumac wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:06 PM
stewbeedoo wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:22 PM
The MOArc change cost my Ranger 19 stat points, as with the previous behavior you could get a little more stat points specing into MOArc than using Aug Str, Dex, etc.

So this is a bit of a nerf for me.

Time for an RA overhaul.

From what I'm reading MoA shouldn't affect ranger buffs?

It doesn't. It affects Rangers using pots instead of PF buffs. However the Ranger buffs aren't worth using when you consider the spec point cost. This change is a definite and direct nerf to Rangers, and it wasn't accidental.

Uhh what? You don't use ranger buffs?? I don't think this is a a direct nerf to rangers at all. I don't know how you spec but im 48 PF and love it. I get 40 more dex from ranger buff than pots even before the nerf. I've actually never heard of anyone not using PF on a ranger so this is news to me.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:03 PM by DarkDavion
This bleed change + PA change is bad. Is good that bleed doesn't break CC bcs a lot of style couldn't be used in GvG but this should be the only change. Why buff infi? They already were in a good place and all the assassins were pretty balanced, this change screw the balance
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:14 PM by Quik
Huge props to the LOS fix on pets. So tired of being nuked by Cabby pets or Shrooms when I am obviously out of sight.

Not exactly sure why you would worry about the LT of a BD at 4 sec when you still let the debuff interrupt.

HUGE HUGE HUGE props for the 100% FIX on minnies if it is working as it sounds...although I am hearing it is still not working properly and pets are able to lose CC when released.

Cure NS for Warden is decent, but won't suddenly make Wardens sought after more than they were in RvR...

Friar heal style now a spreadheal is a really nice little change but, like the warden, not going to make them more sought after.

Bleed change is nice, but bleeds need to be equally accessible across all realms. Seems right now this is leaning toward infi's more than anything by a large amount.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:41 PM by CLamoRR
bad mini change
Sat 20 Jun 2020 1:41 AM by Lucifeur
Does mentalist charm cancel removes negative effects from their pets still?
Sat 20 Jun 2020 7:00 AM by Cadebrennus
LatrommiSumac wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:56 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:16 PM
LatrommiSumac wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:06 PM
From what I'm reading MoA shouldn't affect ranger buffs?

It doesn't. It affects Rangers using pots instead of PF buffs. However the Ranger buffs aren't worth using when you consider the spec point cost. This change is a definite and direct nerf to Rangers, and it wasn't accidental.

Uhh what? You don't use ranger buffs?? I don't think this is a a direct nerf to rangers at all. I don't know how you spec but im 48 PF and love it. I get 40 more dex from ranger buff than pots even before the nerf. I've actually never heard of anyone not using PF on a ranger so this is news to me.

Sniper spec is the only spec I would recommend PF for, specifically 48 PF like you have. Any other spec it's a hard pass IMO.
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:21 AM by Tyrlaan
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- Successful stealth opener (PA, BS, BS2) now delay their damage by up to 100ms to hit after poison applications

This change is kinda meh.
It defies logic to be affected by a poison before even being hit (even if the hit chance is already resolved).
It isn´t working that way for any other proc (which could be debuffing con as well, or dex/qui to lower defense, or increase haste affecting the current swing).
And assassins hardly needed a buff like that.
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:29 AM by Valaraukar
Can someone please confirm, once and for all, if the MoArcane change affects buff pots or not? I've just tried to respec RA on my hunter, I had MoA at 5, removed it tried with a pot and values change, about 8 pts in dex less than before.
So, before I waste another RA respec, can someone please let me know if this change affects, or will ever affect, buff pots values or not?

Thanks!
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:43 AM by Tyrlaan
Valaraukar wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:29 AM
Can someone please confirm, once and for all, if the MoArcane change affects buff pots or not?

That was the whole point of the change. To have MoArcana classes not have better potion buffs. These classes get MoArcana because they have self buffs. If MoArcana was to improve potion buffs, everybody should get it.
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:54 AM by Valaraukar
Tyrlaan wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:43 AM
Valaraukar wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:29 AM
Can someone please confirm, once and for all, if the MoArcane change affects buff pots or not?

That was the whole point of the change. To have MoArcana classes not have better potion buffs. These classes get MoArcana because they have self buffs. If MoArcana was to improve potion buffs, everybody should get it.

Ok that's fine (no..not so fine but I can live with it), but I want to know if it changes buff pot or not NOW. Because i removed MoArc thinking that it no longer affects buff pots, and I have seen that the buff pot values (now without MoArc) is about 8 pts lower than before (when i had MoArc 5). So I would say that it still affects buff pots, while it should not... That is the whole point of the change

Is it intended? Will it be reworked? Can I put on MoArc points again, or do I have to wait? Should I go for other RAs? Will the completely useless pet S/C buff will ever be an instant one? ( I know that this will never happen, since Hunter it's a Mid class, but it would give back sense to have Beastcraft at a certain lvl).
Sat 20 Jun 2020 9:36 AM by Centenario
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items


Pots are items (they are not spells) so they shouldnt benefit from MoA. If they still do, then its a bug report.
Sat 20 Jun 2020 11:23 AM by inoeth
Centenario wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 9:36 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items


Pots are items (they are not spells) so they shouldnt benefit from MoA. If they still do, then its a bug report.

it does on live btw
Sat 20 Jun 2020 12:04 PM by Nauglamir
Lucifeur wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 1:41 AM
Does mentalist charm cancel removes negative effects from their pets still?

Good question - guess it does
Sat 20 Jun 2020 2:49 PM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 11:23 AM
Centenario wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 9:36 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
- buff value %, like Mastery of the Arcane, no longer affect buffs from items


Pots are items (they are not spells) so they shouldnt benefit from MoA. If they still do, then its a bug report.

it does on live btw

If true, this begs the question: when are they following Live and when aren't they?

There are times that they claim to follow Live exactly, and other times that they don't. I would like to see a consistent answer from them.
Sat 20 Jun 2020 5:51 PM by gruenesschaf
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 2:49 PM
If true, this begs the question: when are they following Live and when aren't they?

There are times that they claim to follow Live exactly, and other times that they don't. I would like to see a consistent answer from them.

MoArcane no longer exists on live since the switch to NF due to the existence of toa buff bonus. The alternative would have been to give it to everyone. The way it is now it still remains on all classes that have some form of buffs but it no longer gives those a potential advantage when using potions, only when casting their buffs.
Sat 20 Jun 2020 7:43 PM by bluefalcon420
Again, a change that should have been made during beta...
Sat 20 Jun 2020 7:50 PM by Demaischler
would also be fine if minstrels get their OP pet back, if u take SOS away from em, so these chickens alteast cant RUN away if a fight goes bad for them. Oh, and since its a fucking PULSE finally add a chance to resist EVERY tick! Because thats the real bug here, or if its not working like a pulse, add a 2-3 sec cast time to it...
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:25 PM by stewbeedoo
LatrommiSumac wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:56 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:16 PM
LatrommiSumac wrote:
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:06 PM
From what I'm reading MoA shouldn't affect ranger buffs?

It doesn't. It affects Rangers using pots instead of PF buffs. However the Ranger buffs aren't worth using when you consider the spec point cost. This change is a definite and direct nerf to Rangers, and it wasn't accidental.

Uhh what? You don't use ranger buffs?? I don't think this is a a direct nerf to rangers at all. I don't know how you spec but im 48 PF and love it. I get 40 more dex from ranger buff than pots even before the nerf. I've actually never heard of anyone not using PF on a ranger so this is news to me.
I think it was an inadvertent, minor nerf. Overall, after respec I lost 12 stat points, 9 AF and 31 HP. Not a huge deal, but I had to waste a couple hours making a spreadsheet to figure out the optimal use of MoArc and aug str/con/dex/qui.

And yes I'm 42 PF - it is much better than just running pot buffs.
Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:19 AM by Valaraukar
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 5:51 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 2:49 PM
If true, this begs the question: when are they following Live and when aren't they?

There are times that they claim to follow Live exactly, and other times that they don't. I would like to see a consistent answer from them.

MoArcane no longer exists on live since the switch to NF due to the existence of toa buff bonus. The alternative would have been to give it to everyone. The way it is now it still remains on all classes that have some form of buffs but it no longer gives those a potential advantage when using potions, only when casting their buffs.

And thank you for the free RA respec.... ops no, no free respec at all for Hunters (and all other classes using MoArc as it was BECAUSE it was in that way)

You really should stop doing changes randomly, or without planning them within a certain (long) period. As it is every change you do we need to respec something (like BDs... supp spec completely wasted thank you again). You never spoke before about changes to MoArc, or BD lt nerf, and so on... no planning, no infos, no respec (and no respect also for players imho)

You may say that 3k feathers or 5k feathers for respec stones are cheap.... maybe, but not for me. I just wanna play my toons, don't want to follow changes every 2 weeks that force me to respec something here and there, forcing me to do TG Raid o crazy farming to gain feathers and money, just for respeccing after some changes that noone asked for (but maybe many whined for, in a silent way because I've read nothing about BD LT timer or MoArc on this forum before).


You may also say that this is a free server so you do what you want and what you believe is best (for whom?)... if that's the argument ok then I raise my hands and will play silently and won't bother you again with my criticism, but it's not a big deal about credibility, trust me, and will add nothing to this community, imho.

Why is so difficult to explain some changes? Just explain the reasons behind them and most of us will understand, maybe won't agree but at least understand why. In this way, imposing changes from above, won't get any comprehension and any agreement at all (except from the classes that will get randomly buffed or gain some benefits from other classes nerfed).
Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:42 AM by Ele
Valaraukar wrote:
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 5:51 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 2:49 PM
If true, this begs the question: when are they following Live and when aren't they?

There are times that they claim to follow Live exactly, and other times that they don't. I would like to see a consistent answer from them.

MoArcane no longer exists on live since the switch to NF due to the existence of toa buff bonus. The alternative would have been to give it to everyone. The way it is now it still remains on all classes that have some form of buffs but it no longer gives those a potential advantage when using potions, only when casting their buffs.

And thank you for the free RA respec.... ops no, no free respec at all for Hunters (and all other classes using MoArc as it was BECAUSE it was in that way)

Uthred19.06.2020
- one free RA respec has been added to every character

Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:19 AM
You really should stop doing changes randomly, or without planning them within a certain (long) period. As it is every change you do we need to respec something (like BDs... supp spec completely wasted thank you again). You never spoke before about changes to MoArc, or BD lt nerf, and so on... no planning, no infos, no respec (and no respect also for players imho)
[...]
Why is so difficult to explain some changes? Just explain the reasons behind them and most of us will understand, maybe won't agree but at least understand why. In this way, imposing changes from above, won't get any comprehension and any agreement at all (except from the classes that will get randomly buffed or gain some benefits from other classes nerfed).

The timespan between announcement and introduction of the changes may have been short, but only on the day of the announcement 28 pages of feedback was gathered here on the forum, and a part of the change - chant mechanic and paly heal - were taken out of the changes due to this feedback. From my point of view this looks like the staff takes player feedback seriuosly, and there was certainly enough feedback provided during the few days.
Considering the bd, he got toned down a bit, but still two instant rupts, one on 4 seconds and one on 6 secondes delay, so he is far from being useless.

Edit: klicked submit instead of preview on the first attempt. ops:
Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:44 AM by inoeth
Valaraukar wrote:
Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:19 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 5:51 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Sat 20 Jun 2020 2:49 PM
If true, this begs the question: when are they following Live and when aren't they?

There are times that they claim to follow Live exactly, and other times that they don't. I would like to see a consistent answer from them.

MoArcane no longer exists on live since the switch to NF due to the existence of toa buff bonus. The alternative would have been to give it to everyone. The way it is now it still remains on all classes that have some form of buffs but it no longer gives those a potential advantage when using potions, only when casting their buffs.

And thank you for the free RA respec.... ops no, no free respec at all for Hunters (and all other classes using MoArc as it was BECAUSE it was in that way)

You really should stop doing changes randomly, or without planning them within a certain (long) period. As it is every change you do we need to respec something (like BDs... supp spec completely wasted thank you again). You never spoke before about changes to MoArc, or BD lt nerf, and so on... no planning, no infos, no respec (and no respect also for players imho)

You may say that 3k feathers or 5k feathers for respec stones are cheap.... maybe, but not for me. I just wanna play my toons, don't want to follow changes every 2 weeks that force me to respec something here and there, forcing me to do TG Raid o crazy farming to gain feathers and money, just for respeccing after some changes that noone asked for (but maybe many whined for, in a silent way because I've read nothing about BD LT timer or MoArc on this forum before).


You may also say that this is a free server so you do what you want and what you believe is best (for whom?)... if that's the argument ok then I raise my hands and will play silently and won't bother you again with my criticism, but it's not a big deal about credibility, trust me, and will add nothing to this community, imho.

Why is so difficult to explain some changes? Just explain the reasons behind them and most of us will understand, maybe won't agree but at least understand why. In this way, imposing changes from above, won't get any comprehension and any agreement at all (except from the classes that will get randomly buffed or gain some benefits from other classes nerfed).

not sure why rant here now, im pretty sure nothing changed for you..... now you add with 5 dex less, who cares?
there is already so much for free here and stuff is easy to obtain, really no need for free respecs.
and btw all the ppl that speced high moa...LOL what a waste of points anyway
Tue 23 Jun 2020 1:04 PM by Valaraukar
Ele wrote:
Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:42 AM
.....
Considering the bd, he got toned down a bit, but still two instant rupts, one on 4 seconds and one on 6 secondes delay, so he is far from being useless.

Edit: klicked submit instead of preview on the first attempt. ops:

one instant (debuff body) is 5 secs not 4... and I'm not even sure if it really rupts casters when applied. Anyway this is not the point.... the point is WHY? Why after more than 1 year running they had to change it? Who whined about it? The OP caster classes of Alb and Hib (totally OP compared to Mid ones) because they want to be ininterruptable, or the poor stealthers who did not dare to inc a solo BD because it was not a free and easy kill?

As long as it is, the Supp BD suffered a 50% NERF to his potential. That's all. And no explanation why, no balance with something else, only nerf as it has been with RvR pet damage for Dark BD, who totally disappeared from RvR. Now it's the turn of Supp BD to disappear...Next one is BA dot aoe? Who knows....
Tue 23 Jun 2020 1:58 PM by Ele
Valaraukar wrote:
Ele wrote:
Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:42 AM
.....
Considering the bd, he got toned down a bit, but still two instant rupts, one on 4 seconds and one on 6 secondes delay, so he is far from being useless.

Edit: klicked submit instead of preview on the first attempt. ops:

one instant (debuff body) is 5 secs not 4
Thx for pointing that out, I played my BD to 5L and didn't really notice the different timers.

Valaraukar wrote: and I'm not even sure if it really rupts casters when applied.
It does. That't the whole point of taking a BD as interupter, in an ideal world he nukes on one target while interrupting two others with his instants.

Valaraukar wrote: Why after more than 1 year running they had to change it? Who whined about it? The OP caster classes of Alb and Hib (totally OP compared to Mid ones) because they want to be ininterruptable, or the poor stealthers who did not dare to inc a solo BD because it was not a free and easy kill?
I'd bet on the solo part.
For groups, the impact is limited, as interupt lasts 5 seconds, and in 1 second you can't finish a cast to the point that it is not rupted, except for maybe amnesia and debuffs, but the window of opportunity for the caster to get it off is really small.
For solo, however, it means that the BD has to eat one additional weapon swing before he can use lifetap again, reducing his healing ability without removing it. With the lifetap, pots, Legion, heal pets and maybe PD he'll still be a tough target, but will be vulnerable to burst dmg. So I guess the change was aimed at solo gameplay mainly, but, as I said, that's just a guess.

Valaraukar wrote: As long as it is, the Supp BD suffered a 50% NERF to his potential. That's all. And no explanation why, no balance with something else, only nerf as it has been with RvR pet damage for Dark BD, who totally disappeared from RvR. Now it's the turn of Supp BD to disappear...Next one is BA dot aoe? Who knows....
True that Dark BDs disappeared, I played my BD as Dark BD back when the pets were dealing an insane amount of dmg, especially as you could debuff for your pets. But I don't think that Supp Spec will disappear the same way just because of 2 secs cooldown increase. If solo, bd still relies on the lifetap and the healing pets. Same goes for zerg warfare and farming purposes, and in groups, 38/38 is the preferred spec anyway for interupts, capped base nukes and absorb buff. So even it is a nerf for BD's I don't regard it as severe as the (necessary) Dark BD Nerf.
Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:12 PM by Demaischler
Oh and another Note about Minstrels, Harps came with ToA, so, remove Harps! Remove this free Pet charm, give them their Old Instruments and their Old Pets, i would be fine with it, so an Minstrel has to swap instruments xD

Alluring Melodies (Spell)
Spell Line: Instruments
Level: 41
Target: Enemy
Power Cost: 0
Recast Delay: 5s
Duration: 10 sec/pulse
Range: 2000
Source: Camelot Herald
Last Modified: Thu Mar 12 03:36:03 2009
Description:
Charm (Song) - Compels creature to fight and die for the caster.
Extra Info:
Charm (Song) - Compels creature to fight and die for the caster. This spell has a chance (based on the caster's specialization versus the creature's level) of breaking each "tick".The level of the creature charmed is 70%-110% of the caster's level (based on the caster's specialization). Only one song can be sung at a time.

Just got this from https://camelot.allakhazam.com/db/spelldb.html?cspell=582

So im pretty sure, Minstrels might work here like they are on live, but for me, it doesnt seem its right for this patchlevel.

Well, or give the Menta the SAME charm that a minstrel has, everything else would be just unfair ( and that comes from an Midgard main )

Dream Enemy (Spell)
Spell Line: Illusions
Level: 42
Target: Enemy
Power Cost: 0
Cast Time: 3s
Duration: 10 seconds/puls
Range: 2000
Damage Type: Heat
Source: Camelot Herald
Last Modified: Sun Mar 7 03:22:39 2010
Description:
Charm (Song) - Compels creature to fight and die for the caster. This spell has a chance (based on the caster's specialization versus the creature's level) of breaking each "tick".
Extra Info:
Charm (Song) - Compels creature to fight and die for the caster. This spell has a chance (based on the caster's specialization versus the creature's level) of breaking each "tick". The level of the creature charmed is 70%-110% of the caster's level (based on the caster's specialization). Only one song can be sung at a time.

https://camelot.allakhazam.com/db/spelldb.html?cspell=2345

so the only difference should be, that one is instant ( minstrel ) and one has a casttime ( mentalist )
Wed 24 Jun 2020 12:56 AM by gotwqqd
Pet change is pretty significant
I’d suggest giving minstrels base 10 crit chance on their DD’s to compensate for the loss
Wed 24 Jun 2020 6:47 AM by Noashakra
A Dark Templar Whining about a long due adjustment about a cheated class, who also didn't know the instants on the BD were rupting. Why am I not surprised?
Wed 24 Jun 2020 5:33 PM by MeatBicycle
tbh BD change is fine for me as a Mid player but i don't really understand why other classes pass through without nerfs. Necro is not weaker than bd so where are those changes?
Wed 24 Jun 2020 10:21 PM by Delegator
MeatBicycle wrote:
Wed 24 Jun 2020 5:33 PM
tbh BD change is fine for me as a Mid player but i don't really understand why other classes pass through without nerfs. Necro is not weaker than bd so where are those changes?

Just tried playing my 47 sup BD and basically the nerf made the spec not playable as a primary. As you said, why do necros get to free cast a lifedrain on a 2.5s Castile time but BDs god nerfed by 50%? It really smacks of some developing to a BD and pitching a fit, Not considering that to get to decent lifetap you forego a spec DoT and AE and damage variance on your DD and any pet damage to speak of. I can’t imagine what would happen if other classes god their recast on instas increased by 50%, or their casting time on regular DDs nerfed by that amount.

But then the devs seem to have it in for BDs. Nerfed dark pet damage by 30% in RVR. Still haven’t fixed the long-standing (and acknowledged) bug about summon levels on Bone Army. And now took the nerf bat to Suppression. Doesn’t give any hope for things like pet commanders who don’t run to their deaths when even the basics of the class are getting cut back.
Fri 26 Jun 2020 2:41 PM by Vindicator
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14438

BD nerf was too extreme. Either the damage of the LT needs to be upped or the timer lowered again. 5s would have an affect still.

Also when can Midgard have NS cure on another class? How about Ichor on another class? Seems when it comes to very important abilities and ra's, midgard is being left out. For the sake of balance even. Most 8mans play Alb/Hib and often/usually mid gets beat up in the bg Zerg battles.

Cap theurg pets in RvR or reduce timer on how long they last. Give mid support the ability to melee snare. Albs have friars and hibs get wardens/bards
Fri 26 Jun 2020 3:06 PM by Noashakra
lol cry us a river.
Less BD in rvr?





Give mid support the ability to melee snare
100 dollars and a sneakers too?
Stop complaining, about mid, hib is at the bottom in 8vs8.
What about hib? If you want 2 ichors, you need a VW on top of the eld, which means you have a tank/hybrid set up, and if you take a warden, you will nerf your assist, so no TWF. Meanwhile the shaman and the bd can go in tank group (bd as solo mage) hybrid or full mage, so you always have 1 ichor 1 twf...
Fri 26 Jun 2020 4:03 PM by joshisanonymous
gotwqqd wrote:
Wed 24 Jun 2020 12:56 AM
Pet change is pretty significant
I’d suggest giving minstrels base 10 crit chance on their DD’s to compensate for the loss

There is definitely no need for compensation. Anyone who thinks minstrel is weak because there's now a way to reasonable stop them from having unlimited purges was relying way too much on having unlimited purges.

I would also say the same for BDs with this change, at least for solo play. If your LT going from 4 sec to 6 sec on your supp BD means you find the class unplayable now, then you were relying way too much on face-planting enemies and spamming LT. I'm honestly surprised that more Mids didn't come around to see that the BD LT needed to be tuned down a bit after the PvP zone was implemented and they actually had to fight some BDs solo. It's kind of a nightmare to come up with a scenario where you stand a chance against one. The only 1v1 fights I would ever lose on my BD when I was still playing it were against assassins who got off good openers and minstrels, and the latter was not guaranteed. It's a really powerful solo class. Learn to kite and use LoS (BDs benefit possible more than any other class in the game from using LoS) and you'll probably be just as feared as before.
Fri 26 Jun 2020 4:46 PM by Vindicator
Noashakra wrote:
Fri 26 Jun 2020 3:06 PM
lol cry us a river.
Less BD in rvr?





Give mid support the ability to melee snare
100 dollars and a sneakers too?
Stop complaining, about mid, hib is at the bottom in 8vs8.
What about hib? If you want 2 ichors, you need a VW on top of the eld, which means you have a tank/hybrid set up, and if you take a warden, you will nerf your assist, so no TWF. Meanwhile the shaman and the bd can go in tank group (bd as solo mage) hybrid or full mage, so you always have 1 ichor 1 twf...

So the fact hib has 3 ichor classes and you can't use an animist with tanglers? That's horseshit. Hib is strong in 8man. I'm not going to start putting order of what realm is on top because player ability determines that when groups use their abilities and classes well but when such tools are not evenly spread so all the realms can have these setups and just some balance.

I mean if your going to start nerfing stronger classes instead of balancing weaker ones then fine, take ichor away from some hib classes then keep class number with those abilities balanced. These abilities turn the ride of battles and decide who wins. Nice if you always have it up or can use two in one battle. I'm just using ichor as an example. Mid not getting another NS class is further imbalance.
Fri 26 Jun 2020 5:05 PM by Noashakra
Animist in 8 man is niche and they got nerfed again recently.

Atm, hib has the worst set ups, except mages, where it's between alb and mid, but the meta is not kind for those hib groups. Guess why there is almost no hib gvg groups?
Fri 26 Jun 2020 5:31 PM by opossum12
Wtf am I reading, hib tanker is really strong. But if people don't run VWs in a hib tanker, nothing we can do for you.

Or they run VWs with MoP7+ and think they are doing it right...
Sat 27 Jun 2020 5:28 AM by Delegator
joshisanonymous wrote:
Fri 26 Jun 2020 4:03 PM
I would also say the same for BDs with this change, at least for solo play. If your LT going from 4 sec to 6 sec on your supp BD means you find the class unplayable now, then you were relying way too much on face-planting enemies and spamming LT. I'm honestly surprised that more Mids didn't come around to see that the BD LT needed to be tuned down a bit after the PvP zone was implemented and they actually had to fight some BDs solo. It's kind of a nightmare to come up with a scenario where you stand a chance against one. The only 1v1 fights I would ever lose on my BD when I was still playing it were against assassins who got off good openers and minstrels, and the latter was not guaranteed. It's a really powerful solo class. Learn to kite and use LoS (BDs benefit possible more than any other class in the game from using LoS) and you'll probably be just as feared as before.

I didn’t say the class was unplayable now. I said that sup is unplayable as a primary spec. And all your arguments are about 1v1 and the PvP zone (which I assume means the 1v1 zone, which is a small sliver of players. What the nerf did was drop the dips of the spec drastically. Your arguments would be like nerfing dual wield swing percentage by half and telling mercy and blade masters not to whine because they can just go sword and board. Sure it is possible. Doesn’t make it right to nerf that hard out of the blue.

And if you are going to nerf a spec that hard, how about fixing the other specs (especially Bone Army, which cannot summon the same levels of pets as sup or dark) first? Or put in the commanders for the ranged specs that don’t run into battle and die when the ranged pets attack?
Sat 27 Jun 2020 4:00 PM by joshisanonymous
Delegator wrote:
Sat 27 Jun 2020 5:28 AM
joshisanonymous wrote:
Fri 26 Jun 2020 4:03 PM
I would also say the same for BDs with this change, at least for solo play. If your LT going from 4 sec to 6 sec on your supp BD means you find the class unplayable now, then you were relying way too much on face-planting enemies and spamming LT. I'm honestly surprised that more Mids didn't come around to see that the BD LT needed to be tuned down a bit after the PvP zone was implemented and they actually had to fight some BDs solo. It's kind of a nightmare to come up with a scenario where you stand a chance against one. The only 1v1 fights I would ever lose on my BD when I was still playing it were against assassins who got off good openers and minstrels, and the latter was not guaranteed. It's a really powerful solo class. Learn to kite and use LoS (BDs benefit possible more than any other class in the game from using LoS) and you'll probably be just as feared as before.

I didn’t say the class was unplayable now. I said that sup is unplayable as a primary spec. And all your arguments are about 1v1 and the PvP zone (which I assume means the 1v1 zone, which is a small sliver of players. What the nerf did was drop the dips of the spec drastically. Your arguments would be like nerfing dual wield swing percentage by half and telling mercy and blade masters not to whine because they can just go sword and board. Sure it is possible. Doesn’t make it right to nerf that hard out of the blue.

And if you are going to nerf a spec that hard, how about fixing the other specs (especially Bone Army, which cannot summon the same levels of pets as sup or dark) first? Or put in the commanders for the ranged specs that don’t run into battle and die when the ranged pets attack?

Never been to the PvP zone (have a strong distaste for organized fights), and no, it's absolutely not like halfing DW swing percentage because you're a caster. Most BDs, especially solo, play the class as if it's a melee, just faceplanting enemies and knowing they'll usually win because their pets and LT will keep them alive. That's the only situation where having a 6sec LT vs 4sec LT would be even sorta like nerfing DW swing percentage. If you play the class as if it's a caster, then 6sec vs 4sec is not a big deal because your LT is primarily an interrupt and secondarily extra dmg/survival. And yes, I'm talking about playing solo, because that's my experience. I wouldn't try to say what this means for group situations.

If you want, I'm split spec right now on my BD and haven't played for a while, but I'd be willing to go back to full supp and make some solo recordings next week to show you what I mean. I'm not talking out my ass, here, I've mained a solo supp BD both on Uthgard and here, so I'm aware of what the LT means for BDs.
Sat 27 Jun 2020 7:34 PM by Noashakra
opossum12 wrote:
Fri 26 Jun 2020 5:31 PM
Wtf am I reading, hib tanker is really strong. But if people don't run VWs in a hib tanker, nothing we can do for you.

Or they run VWs with MoP7+ and think they are doing it right...

Do you want to compare hib tanker vs mid or vs alb af debuff train?
Sat 27 Jun 2020 10:38 PM by opossum12
Noashakra wrote:
Sat 27 Jun 2020 7:34 PM
opossum12 wrote:
Fri 26 Jun 2020 5:31 PM
Wtf am I reading, hib tanker is really strong. But if people don't run VWs in a hib tanker, nothing we can do for you.

Or they run VWs with MoP7+ and think they are doing it right...

Do you want to compare hib tanker vs mid or vs alb af debuff train?

Ok... Hib tanker is really strong, mid tanker has always been a relatively mediocre comp, while alb af debuff needs good players.

Hib tanker is the comp with the best ratio of skill (lack of) required vs success.

Mid BD tanker is decent. Mid full tanker is just bad.
Sun 28 Jun 2020 7:34 AM by Noashakra
opossum12 wrote:
Sat 27 Jun 2020 10:38 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Sat 27 Jun 2020 7:34 PM
opossum12 wrote:
Fri 26 Jun 2020 5:31 PM
Wtf am I reading, hib tanker is really strong. But if people don't run VWs in a hib tanker, nothing we can do for you.

Or they run VWs with MoP7+ and think they are doing it right...

Do you want to compare hib tanker vs mid or vs alb af debuff train?

Ok... Hib tanker is really strong, mid tanker has always been a relatively mediocre comp, while alb af debuff needs good players.

Hib tanker is the comp with the best ratio of skill (lack of) required vs success.

Mid BD tanker is decent. Mid full tanker is just bad.

Even in hib tanker you need an eld for disease/ns.
Sun 28 Jun 2020 11:56 AM by opossum12
You have an eld in your hib tanker? This isn't uthgard, no wonder you think hib tank sucks
Sun 28 Jun 2020 6:16 PM by Noashakra
opossum12 wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020 11:56 AM
You have an eld in your hib tanker? This isn't uthgard, no wonder you think hib tank sucks

Guess why there a 0 tank group in the GvG list. It must be because IT'S SO STRONG !
People play the OP set ups... That's why most of the GvG groups are alb and mid.

But yeah tell us again how strong hib tank group are...
Sun 28 Jun 2020 7:41 PM by opossum12
Noashakra wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020 6:16 PM
opossum12 wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020 11:56 AM
You have an eld in your hib tanker? This isn't uthgard, no wonder you think hib tank sucks

Guess why there a 0 tank group in the GvG list. It must be because IT'S SO STRONG !
People play the OP set ups... That's why most of the GvG groups are alb and mid.

But yeah tell us again how strong hib tank group are...

Idk... I was looking for phx streams the other night and first one I found was hib tanker...

Bard
2X druid
Warden
Hero bm champ vw

They didn't lose a single fight
Sun 28 Jun 2020 9:24 PM by Noashakra
opossum12 wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020 7:41 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020 6:16 PM
opossum12 wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020 11:56 AM
You have an eld in your hib tanker? This isn't uthgard, no wonder you think hib tank sucks

Guess why there a 0 tank group in the GvG list. It must be because IT'S SO STRONG !
People play the OP set ups... That's why most of the GvG groups are alb and mid.

But yeah tell us again how strong hib tank group are...

Idk... I was looking for phx streams the other night and first one I found was hib tanker...

Bard
2X druid
Warden
Hero bm champ vw

They didn't lose a single fight

What is the name of the guild?
Mon 29 Jun 2020 5:37 AM by Nephamael
Atm, hib has the worst set ups, except mages, where it's between alb and mid, but the meta is not kind for those hib groups. Guess why there is almost no hib gvg groups?

Actually hib tanker does just fine, as it compensates the bards range disadvantage with pushing.

The problem is, since the bard nerf, hib castergrps even get outranged by mid tankers (1x 2300 eld nearsight vs 2x 2300 healer amnesia or 3x 2300 if they run a single rm).

So hib caster is basically not viable, as they can't maintain a rupt stalemate while kiting, so they can't kill anything and they cant maintain a rupt stalemate when pushing, so they can't push.

If we want to see more than 1/10th of the /gvg list being hib grps again we have to give Bard 2nd dd and Ment or Ench cast amnesia.
Mon 29 Jun 2020 5:47 AM by Noashakra
Nephamael wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 5:37 AM
Atm, hib has the worst set ups, except mages, where it's between alb and mid, but the meta is not kind for those hib groups. Guess why there is almost no hib gvg groups?

Actually hib tanker does just fine, as it compensates the bards range disadvantage with pushing.

The problem is, since the bard nerf, hib castergrps even get outranged by mid tankers (1x 2300 eld nearsight vs 2x 2300 healer amnesia or 3x 2300 if they run a single rm).

So hib caster is basically not viable, as they can't maintain a rupt stalemate while kiting, so they can't kill anything and they cant maintain a rupt stalemate when pushing, so they can't push.

If we want to see more than 1/10th of the /gvg list being hib grps again we have to give Bard 2nd dd and Ment or Ench cast amnesia.

There are a hybrid groups, but there are no pure tank groups running or I am blind.
Mon 29 Jun 2020 10:35 AM by hyshash
during eu pt hib melee is the most common setup. Actually there are currently only like 1 maybe 2 grps roaming caster and several melee grps.
During eu pt the most common grp balance seem to be mid >> hib > alb for most evenings and all realms are kinda melee heavy even alb.
Thats also the reason why you start to read that ppl want some mins buffs for 8vs8 ... there simply arent to many ppl during eu pt that want to play the gimped down mins anymore in a fg.
Mins just seem to be a inferior skald cc/dmg wise (no det -> ae mezz purge or you have to wait 20 sec) or a inferior bard range wise.
Mon 29 Jun 2020 3:07 PM by Demaischler
hyshash wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 10:35 AM
during eu pt hib melee is the most common setup. Actually there are currently only like 1 maybe 2 grps roaming caster and several melee grps.
During eu pt the most common grp balance seem to be mid >> hib > alb for most evenings and all realms are kinda melee heavy even alb.
Thats also the reason why you start to read that ppl want some mins buffs for 8vs8 ... there simply arent to many ppl during eu pt that want to play the gimped down mins anymore in a fg.
Mins just seem to be a inferior skald cc/dmg wise (no det -> ae mezz purge or you have to wait 20 sec) or a inferior bard range wise.

No, u dont have many misntrels that group, cause the class is still so broken that its not worth to grp for a minstrel if he can make rps faster solo. If u want minstrels to grp, nerf their ability to get high lvl pets, so they cant 1on1 any class in this game. THEN u would get minstrels to grp. An group just has nothing to offer for the minstrel that he needs, Speed, buffs (pots), stun, mezz, inst dmg + red pet. Really, why would an minstrel ever want to grp with some1 And saying that he doesnt offer much to a grp is like saying the Midgard Healer is useless, maybe u get it now? Oh any he got also heals from the Pet, and dont tell me u only have to mezz the pet, if the minstrel has 2 braincells he could just release the pet, autohit it and charm it again.
Mon 29 Jun 2020 6:15 PM by hyshash
Demaischler wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 3:07 PM
No, u dont have many misntrels that group, cause the class is still so broken that its not worth to grp for a minstrel if he can make rps faster solo. If u want minstrels to grp, nerf their ability to get high lvl pets, so they cant 1on1 any class in this game. THEN u would get minstrels to grp. An group just has nothing to offer for the minstrel that he needs, Speed, buffs (pots), stun, mezz, inst dmg + red pet. Really, why would an minstrel ever want to grp with some1 And saying that he doesnt offer much to a grp is like saying the Midgard Healer is useless, maybe u get it now? Oh any he got also heals from the Pet, and dont tell me u only have to mezz the pet, if the minstrel has 2 braincells he could just release the pet, autohit it and charm it again.
wont comment on the first part ... i just dont care about 1vs1
regarding your 2nd statement maybe you should start to actually read what i wrote ... i never said that a mins doesnt offer much i just said that its a gimped down version of the mins (wich is obv true comparing mins to live mins) and inferior to skald cc/dmg wise (do i rly have to elaborate this ?) and inferior to bard range wise ...
Mon 29 Jun 2020 7:18 PM by Demaischler
hyshash wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 6:15 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 3:07 PM
No, u dont have many misntrels that group, cause the class is still so broken that its not worth to grp for a minstrel if he can make rps faster solo. If u want minstrels to grp, nerf their ability to get high lvl pets, so they cant 1on1 any class in this game. THEN u would get minstrels to grp. An group just has nothing to offer for the minstrel that he needs, Speed, buffs (pots), stun, mezz, inst dmg + red pet. Really, why would an minstrel ever want to grp with some1 And saying that he doesnt offer much to a grp is like saying the Midgard Healer is useless, maybe u get it now? Oh any he got also heals from the Pet, and dont tell me u only have to mezz the pet, if the minstrel has 2 braincells he could just release the pet, autohit it and charm it again.
wont comment on the first part ... i just dont care about 1vs1
regarding your 2nd statement maybe you should start to actually read what i wrote ... i never said that a mins doesnt offer much i just said that its a gimped down version of the mins (wich is obv true comparing mins to live mins) and inferior to skald cc/dmg wise (do i rly have to elaborate this ?) and inferior to bard range wise ...

i dont rly think that minstrel cc is inferior to skald cc... skald has a snare and a mezz both with 30s cd, minstrel has 9s stun with 10s cd, and single target mezz that he can cast while moving and an AoE mezz, ofc skald has det, but the minstrel even brings an cure mezz to an grp. And most ppl just forget the at this patchlevel misntrels shouldnt have this version of charm so they had to charm over and over again, pre toa there wasnt Harps, so minstrels had to swap between drum and flute for speed and mezz for example, i dont know if pets can resist the pulse here at all, but back pre ToA they could resist, 2 maybe 3 resists in a row and u failed the charm so the pet went aggro on you. Thats also why u never saw so many Minstrels with high lvl pets on live back then. Idk how it was after ToA release, but thats not the patchlevel they choose so...
Mon 29 Jun 2020 10:02 PM by opossum12
Demaischler wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 7:18 PM
hyshash wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 6:15 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 3:07 PM
No, u dont have many misntrels that group, cause the class is still so broken that its not worth to grp for a minstrel if he can make rps faster solo. If u want minstrels to grp, nerf their ability to get high lvl pets, so they cant 1on1 any class in this game. THEN u would get minstrels to grp. An group just has nothing to offer for the minstrel that he needs, Speed, buffs (pots), stun, mezz, inst dmg + red pet. Really, why would an minstrel ever want to grp with some1 And saying that he doesnt offer much to a grp is like saying the Midgard Healer is useless, maybe u get it now? Oh any he got also heals from the Pet, and dont tell me u only have to mezz the pet, if the minstrel has 2 braincells he could just release the pet, autohit it and charm it again.
wont comment on the first part ... i just dont care about 1vs1
regarding your 2nd statement maybe you should start to actually read what i wrote ... i never said that a mins doesnt offer much i just said that its a gimped down version of the mins (wich is obv true comparing mins to live mins) and inferior to skald cc/dmg wise (do i rly have to elaborate this ?) and inferior to bard range wise ...

i dont rly think that minstrel cc is inferior to skald cc... skald has a snare and a mezz both with 30s cd, minstrel has 9s stun with 10s cd, and single target mezz that he can cast while moving and an AoE mezz, ofc skald has det, but the minstrel even brings an cure mezz to an grp. And most ppl just forget the at this patchlevel misntrels shouldnt have this version of charm so they had to charm over and over again, pre toa there wasnt Harps, so minstrels had to swap between drum and flute for speed and mezz for example, i dont know if pets can resist the pulse here at all, but back pre ToA they could resist, 2 maybe 3 resists in a row and u failed the charm so the pet went aggro on you. Thats also why u never saw so many Minstrels with high lvl pets on live back then. Idk how it was after ToA release, but thats not the patchlevel they choose so...

You do realize that they changed the charm mechanic to stop minstrels from running around with purple Pookas...which you could donwhen you could simply spam the charm.

The first part of your comment saying minstrels dont group because they make more RPs solo is just dumb.
Mon 29 Jun 2020 10:32 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 5:47 AM
There are a hybrid groups, but there are no pure tank groups running or I am blind.


Depends on when you play. If you're playing during US primetime, you're blind. I can't speak toward EU primetime comps.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 10:03 AM by Noashakra
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 10:32 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 5:47 AM
There are a hybrid groups, but there are no pure tank groups running or I am blind.


Depends on when you play. If you're playing during US primetime, you're blind. I can't speak toward EU primetime comps.

I play EU prime time. I would be glad to see those groups and how they perform.
I run almost every day with our caster hib group (it's gimp we know) and I never see hib tank set ups, they are all hybrids (sometimes they are some randoms playing tanks, like we did last week, but t's not a regular thing), that's why I ask who they are.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 1:00 PM by Demaischler
opossum12 wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 10:02 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 7:18 PM
hyshash wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020 6:15 PM
wont comment on the first part ... i just dont care about 1vs1
regarding your 2nd statement maybe you should start to actually read what i wrote ... i never said that a mins doesnt offer much i just said that its a gimped down version of the mins (wich is obv true comparing mins to live mins) and inferior to skald cc/dmg wise (do i rly have to elaborate this ?) and inferior to bard range wise ...

i dont rly think that minstrel cc is inferior to skald cc... skald has a snare and a mezz both with 30s cd, minstrel has 9s stun with 10s cd, and single target mezz that he can cast while moving and an AoE mezz, ofc skald has det, but the minstrel even brings an cure mezz to an grp. And most ppl just forget the at this patchlevel misntrels shouldnt have this version of charm so they had to charm over and over again, pre toa there wasnt Harps, so minstrels had to swap between drum and flute for speed and mezz for example, i dont know if pets can resist the pulse here at all, but back pre ToA they could resist, 2 maybe 3 resists in a row and u failed the charm so the pet went aggro on you. Thats also why u never saw so many Minstrels with high lvl pets on live back then. Idk how it was after ToA release, but thats not the patchlevel they choose so...

You do realize that they changed the charm mechanic to stop minstrels from running around with purple Pookas...which you could donwhen you could simply spam the charm.

The first part of your comment saying minstrels dont group because they make more RPs solo is just dumb.

i would prefer to meet minstrels with REAL SKILL that are able to use a purple pet while still using their other tools 1 or 2 times a day( that would mean he has do click the pet every few seconds and use charm again cause of high resist rate, for low RR it wouldnt work at all without losing Aggro too many times ) , than 100 minstrels a day with red pets and 0 skill. Hell, u even had to recharm Red pets at RR3 or the pet would smack you once in a while u when were running around, just dig some old minstrel threads and im 100% sure they would prove what i say.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 1:32 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 10:03 AM
that's why I ask who they are.


Dun Bulge has a wicked 5-natty, 3 tank assist train.
Le Litterbox could use a little more cohesion, but when they're on their game they can do some damage.
SM Stacking Bodies has been running a 3 tank, 1 eld set-up recently that has been doing well.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 1:41 PM by Noashakra
They are not even playing anymore
https://herald.playphoenix.online/g/SM%20Stacking%20Bodies
https://herald.playphoenix.online/g/Dun%20Bulge
They don't seem to be very active and they are low rank, I did more on my NS than they did together last week.
https://herald.playphoenix.online/g/Le%20Litterbox

If it's what you call successful...
Tue 30 Jun 2020 2:00 PM by Lerox
Demaischler wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 1:00 PM
i would prefer to meet minstrels with REAL SKILL that are able to use a purple pet while still using their other tools 1 or 2 times a day( that would mean he has do click the pet every few seconds and use charm again cause of high resist rate, for low RR it wouldn't work at all without losing Aggro too many times ) , than 100 minstrels a day with red pets and 0 skill. Hell, u even had to recharm Red pets at RR3 or the pet would smack you once in a while u when were running around, just dig some old minstrel threads and im 100% sure they would prove what i say.
A lot of people cried about minstrels with a purple pet running around and they blamed that the minstrel is so easy due to macros which do everything for you.
During my time on Phoenix I haven't seen many minstrels which are good and utilise the class fully. Nor I am perfect on the minstrel and I do mistakes very often and some of those happen because I have to take care of my pet.
With the recent change I have to take care of my pet even more (at least in 8v8) and it drives me crazy that I have to do that. Pets are slower than running speed so if they get diseased they are really easy to kite out. If enemies snare the pet over and over again you have to hit the pet to get him out of snare and then they just resnare it.

Especially for 8v8 the latest changes are awful and put the minstrel in a bad position. Good players can and will outplay a minstrel easily. Outplaying was possible before the changes too but it required more skill like the minstrel requires skill to be played well.

I was never a fan of the permanent charm because nowadays there are so many bad minstrels running around. I can understand that it makes fun to play the class and fighting other players without taking care of your pet as much as it used to be but that change caused a little flood of solo/smallman minstrels because they removed the struggle of taking care of the pet.

I am admitting that the minstrel itself is really powerful and if you fight against bad or average players you probably win even if you are bad on the minstrel just because you have many toys to use. I can fully understand other players which cried about the minstrel after the change to it.

In my opinion the minstrel needs some substitute to be in a better position again but since I am a minstrel player they probably won't agree with me.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 2:09 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 1:41 PM
They are not even playing anymore


DB and SM both play all three realms, they don't run their Hibs every night and they only run for two hours a day; 15k an hour (a great number during US primetime) between 8 people is only 240k a night.

Not everyone plays for five hours a day every day.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 5:03 PM by Noashakra
Did you have a look at who made the rps? Mostly one for the SM Stacking Bodies. And it is a mentalist!

For dun bulge, they have 20krp on 7 toon. Do you really think they played only one hour at 20krp?

So there is one group running 2/3hours a week with a tank set up doing 10krp or less per hour (with gvg /cleanfight I supposed). Wow, hib tank so strong! I knew I wasn't crazy, You made the case for my point.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:32 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 5:03 PM
So there is one group running 2/3hours a week with a tank set up doing 10krp or less per hour (with gvg /cleanfight I supposed). Wow, hib tank so strong! I knew I wasn't crazy, You made the case for my point.


You're using the Herald, which is known to be broken and lag and not report shit correctly, while I'm using my actual experience.

Go play Mid or Alb during USPT and you'll see that you're wrong. It's that easy.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 9:07 PM by Noashakra
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:32 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 5:03 PM
So there is one group running 2/3hours a week with a tank set up doing 10krp or less per hour (with gvg /cleanfight I supposed). Wow, hib tank so strong! I knew I wasn't crazy, You made the case for my point.


You're using the Herald, which is known to be broken and lag and not report shit correctly, while I'm using my actual experience.

Go play Mid or Alb during USPT and you'll see that you're wrong. It's that easy.

the Herald is acurate for the RP per week. It's just buggy on sundays mondays.
Those guys are not active it's just a fact.
I remember seing the SM Stacking Bodies, but it was months ago.
Tue 30 Jun 2020 9:23 PM by Spiegal
Lerox wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 2:00 PM
Demaischler wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 1:00 PM
i would prefer to meet minstrels with REAL SKILL that are able to use a purple pet while still using their other tools 1 or 2 times a day( that would mean he has do click the pet every few seconds and use charm again cause of high resist rate, for low RR it wouldn't work at all without losing Aggro too many times ) , than 100 minstrels a day with red pets and 0 skill. Hell, u even had to recharm Red pets at RR3 or the pet would smack you once in a while u when were running around, just dig some old minstrel threads and im 100% sure they would prove what i say.
A lot of people cried about minstrels with a purple pet running around and they blamed that the minstrel is so easy due to macros which do everything for you.
During my time on Phoenix I haven't seen many minstrels which are good and utilise the class fully. Nor I am perfect on the minstrel and I do mistakes very often and some of those happen because I have to take care of my pet.
With the recent change I have to take care of my pet even more (at least in 8v8) and it drives me crazy that I have to do that. Pets are slower than running speed so if they get diseased they are really easy to kite out. If enemies snare the pet over and over again you have to hit the pet to get him out of snare and then they just resnare it.

Especially for 8v8 the latest changes are awful and put the minstrel in a bad position. Good players can and will outplay a minstrel easily. Outplaying was possible before the changes too but it required more skill like the minstrel requires skill to be played well.

I was never a fan of the permanent charm because nowadays there are so many bad minstrels running around. I can understand that it makes fun to play the class and fighting other players without taking care of your pet as much as it used to be but that change caused a little flood of solo/smallman minstrels because they removed the struggle of taking care of the pet.

I am admitting that the minstrel itself is really powerful and if you fight against bad or average players you probably win even if you are bad on the minstrel just because you have many toys to use. I can fully understand other players which cried about the minstrel after the change to it.

In my opinion the minstrel needs some substitute to be in a better position again but since I am a minstrel player they probably won't agree with me.

Problem is Minstrel players want compensation. For what? to still be on top of the food chain. Don't get me wrong I feel your frustration, but almost every pet class has that problem.

Exemple: My BD pets are grey (beside the commander), which means when they are cc, they will try to come back to me through a straight line.... which means they often goes through pack of mobs and put me in a combat status. This affects my speed immediately, I need often to ask my group to loop to pick me up, and sometimes I need to release the pets because of that.

Now when a BD summons all of his pets, it takes 50-75% of his power pool.
They got nerfed twice already, on damage, which is the purpose of the class, and we have no tools beside a single root, or spec snare.
It just feel easier for a minster to just grab another pet if it cause issues as they are plentiful in RvR.
For a BD, you need to think if you have time to summon all pet and the power you want to invest. It takes at least 30 sec + buffs... which is a great deal. We don't always have the luxury to wait.

So I'm sorry, I can feel your frustration, but I can't have empathy of you regarding the pet modifications.
Thu 23 Jul 2020 1:33 PM by Centenario
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:58 AM
As always, these are proposed changes, feedback is welcome and can still change things. An update will happen on Friday, depending on feedback some parts might be delayed.

These changes include parts of the proposed style changes, the bleeding stuff, the remaining style changes have been reduced to just splitting apart long chains and will happen sometime next week.

Paladin:
- Endurance chant no longer consumes mana
- Endurance chant can now run concurrently with another chant

EDIT:
Due to feedback not included today and under revision:
- stopping a resist chant now cancels the buff instantly (affects paladin, skald and bard)
- Heal chant is now an instant group heal with a 60 second reuse timer and a mana cost

Hello, I have holded off my paladin at lvl 47 and not made the SC, been waiting for an update on this.
Is the dev team planning to modify the paladin anytime soon?
Fri 24 Jul 2020 7:27 AM by Sepplord
Lerox wrote:
Tue 30 Jun 2020 2:00 PM
[...]
If enemies snare the pet over and over again you have to hit the pet to get him out of snare and then they just resnare it.
[...]

Not saying you have no point at all, but above is a good example of heavy bias that you might want to consider to rethink your other feelings too.

You make it sound as if it is an immense amount of work to hit the pet out of snare, and that "just" resnaring the pet doesn't cost the enemy any coordination at all. While in reality both are quite similar actions effort-wise (and minstrels even being able to break snare on their pets are at an advantage to other pets).
Reading such a biased argument makes me personally take your other arguments (that might have more substance) a bit skeptical
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