Sprinting Backwards in water - exploiting?

So I was fighting this NS at uppland docks. While he was styling his 50 pierce greatness, I wasn't properly snare poisoned. I was running backwards to avoid any side stun shenanigans and was using engage/wounding thrust to snare him and let the dog do his duty. That NS died. And told me that this is bannable play. Is it?

Wed 23 Jun 2021 1:21 PM by dougrighteous1

in mmos, bugs are your fault and you are held accountable for using their shitty coding to your advantage.

whether it ever gets fixed is irrelevant

Wed 23 Jun 2021 1:29 PM by Astaa

No definitive answer available when asked before.

So who knows.

It's broken, I always back peddle vs certain classes, so I just try and avoid water fights.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 1:46 PM by Magesty

If that is against the rules it is news to me.

You’ll have a chance to correct your behavior via a warning before being banned if you are caught abusing movement— so don’t stress it too much if it is illegal and you didn’t know.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 1:54 PM by Sepplord

i remember they explained that they cannot fix it (iirr because it is client side) but i don't remember anything that it is forbidden

on the other hand, strafing with low HP is a pretty similar issue, and that has become a bannable offense...so maybe the backpeddling in water will also be something that people will get warned about

Wed 23 Jun 2021 4:25 PM by ExcretusMaximus

There are multiple rules on this server that aren't listed in the rules on the front page, yet you will still get suspended for breaking them.

So, while that isn't listed as a rule, I wouldn't doubt it is one.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 5:06 PM by

Uthred

It is listed in the rules.

10. Bug abuse and exploits
10.2 Exploiting is defined as the commission of an action within the game to circumvent or alter the normal functions of the said game.

So yes, it is an exploit.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 6:26 PM by Tashkent

Ok, i'll refrain from back peddling with sprint. But back peddling without is fine then?

Wed 23 Jun 2021 7:15 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jun 2021 5:06 PM
It is listed in the rules.

10. Bug abuse and exploits
10.2 Exploiting is defined as the commission of an action within the game to circumvent or alter the normal functions of the said game.

So yes, it is an exploit.

Most people would likely think that it's not altering the normal functions of the game; it's the way the game works which cannot be changed -- that it is an unwanted effect doesn't make it any less a normal function.

If you're going to suspend people for specific things like water retreating and side strafing, you should list them somewhere and not just assume a vague "do not exploit" umbrella is enough. After all, people can't avoid breaking a rule they don't know about, as evidenced by this thread and the every-day arguments on Discord about whether side strafing at low health is legal or not.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 8:07 PM by easytoremember

I don't get why modifying the client is an issue; it's the only part of the game you purchased. Threatening someone for modding their game lmao. Or even better, threatening someone for distributing files that they themself created.

The subscription was for access to the provider's server and said server isn't in use here so what's the deal?

Thu 24 Jun 2021 6:07 AM by Astaa

Because part of your agreement when purchasing the game (client) is that you will not modify it and while pretty weak, legally, I am not sure if any such agreements have ever been challenged in court, it's probably not the best idea to try it out

Thu 24 Jun 2021 7:29 AM by Sepplord

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jun 2021 5:06 PM
It is listed in the rules.

10. Bug abuse and exploits
10.2 Exploiting is defined as the commission of an action within the game to circumvent or alter the normal functions of the said game.

So yes, it is an exploit.

Thanks for making it clear in this case.
The rule is hard to interpret for players though, due to huge exceptions.

Facing or sticking a target are clearly functions that are supposed to keep a target in front of you. Being able to do side- and even backstyles on those players is clearly circumvention of the /face - function.
Everyone is under the assumption that it is not considered an exploit (there are people that think it is an exploit, but they are also aware that you do not consider it one, like most servers). It is considered "skill" to be able to do it.

So what is the difference to backpeddling in water? Don't get me wrong, i am not trying to advocate to allow it. I want to suggest to list the known exploits in the rules, with a disclaimer "this list is not exhaustive" and while there would still be other cases, it would be easy for anyone new to spot what is forbidden and what isn't.

Thu 24 Jun 2021 9:06 AM by Noashakra

You are not supposed to go faster/at the same speed backward running that you go forward.
It's like the side straff under sos.

Thu 24 Jun 2021 12:34 PM by Blitze

I dont see much difference between backwards water sprint, side-style strafeing, and strafing at low HP...
I believe they are all exploits of the game mechanics and are not intended.
However, i have a feeling that depending on how hard they are the fix, depends on how well they are tolerated.

Thu 24 Jun 2021 1:31 PM by Nunki

The core problem I see in this rule is that it is nearly impossible to avoid the behaviour.
Moving (in any direction) is a normal game function.
"Theoretically" getting banned for moving backwards in water is a joke because every player at some point will do that during the fight.
You can easily gain "advantage" unintentionally.

At no point I would consider a side-effect of moving backwards as a violationg of any rules as a new players. And violations should be clear.

Moving backwards is a "normal function" and there is no way to to bypass the movement speed boost when moving backwards in water.

That bug beeing "unfixable" means the permanent use of that bug is unavoidable in the long term.
I accept that you punish players for abusing bugs which could get fixed in a period of time and/or provide an advantage other players don't have, but everything that is "unfixable" and "everyday use for every player" should either be unpunishable or blocked by the GMs.

Is there no way to deactivate backwards-movement while swimming?

Big respect for your work.
Have a good time.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 3:58 PM by

gruenesschaf

While the definition of exploit is rather weirdly worded, this quite clearly falls under bug abuse / exploiting just via common sense.

The bug is that the client calculates the speed under certain circumstances wrongly. For example, it doesn't take the hp penalty into account while strafing and it doesn't take the water penalty into account while sprinting backwards in water.
Getting an advantage from any kind of bug is pretty much the definition of exploiting (a bug), repeatedly invoking the buggy behavior (to get an advantage) is basically the definition of bug abuse. Usually both terms are used interchangeably as in the end they kind of describe the same result.

In case of these and similar bugs, where it can be argued that a reasonable player might assume their behavior is fine, the player will get a warning before other actions are taken.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 4:16 PM by

gruenesschaf

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 7:29 AM
Facing or sticking a target are clearly functions that are supposed to keep a target in front of you. Being able to do side- and even backstyles on those players is clearly circumvention of the /face - function.
Everyone is under the assumption that it is not considered an exploit (there are people that think it is an exploit, but they are also aware that you do not consider it one, like most servers). It is considered "skill" to be able to do it.

So what is the difference to backpeddling in water? Don't get me wrong, i am not trying to advocate to allow it. I want to suggest to list the known exploits in the rules, with a disclaimer "this list is not exhaustive" and while there would still be other cases, it would be easy for anyone new to spot what is forbidden and what isn't.

There is technically no difference except that things like strafing to land positionals are condoned.

As for adding a non exhaustive list to the rule, we prefer to give those people a warning instead. While everyone obviously has read the rules very carefully and can recite them backwards from memory at any time, giving a warning for circumstances that have been explicitly forbidden seems weird and hence we very much prefer to keep it somewhat unclear and to give a warning instead when the full circumstances of the individual case warrant it (aka it was so blatant / beneficial that it actually made someone report it).

Mon 28 Jun 2021 6:31 AM by Sepplord

gruenesschaf wrote: While everyone obviously has read the rules very carefully and can recite them backwards from memory at any time

but, fair enough, that explanation makes perfect sense

Mon 28 Jun 2021 10:14 AM by Tommylad

" I was running backwards to avoid any side stun shenanigans"........... OMG it gets more absurd every day. Running backwards is not allowed. Maybe the Phoenix needs to stop flying upside down and backwards.

Mon 28 Jun 2021 10:57 AM by Blitze

Although sprinting backwards is not fully effective against sidestylelag shennanigans... it can help.
I didn't know that sprinting backwards was faster in water and I avoid fighting in water best i can, however, now i know that sprint backwards is more effective there, i may try and fight people with sidestuns there.